(re-posting from Just Found Out forum)

Hi,
I'm new here. I've been reading for about 2 weeks now, but this is my first post.
Quick update on us. Together 10yrs, married 4 this month. We have one daughter (1.5yrs) and are now expecting our 2nd.

H and I were separated Mar 8, 06 after a domestic dispute in which I ended up calling the police for help. Nothing physical happened, mostly it was yelling and him trying to intimidate me w/words. He scared me that night so I called 911 for help. BUT because I told them he took the phone from my hand when trying to call for help, the city slapped a NC order on us for over 1 month and wanted to send him to jail for that "interferring in an emergency call". I was shocked.

During this time we could not speak for fear of him going to jail.

We did discuss divorce several times as we just werent getting along and things were bad for a long time. We did see eachother once the NC was lifted, but things were akward to say the least.

Cut to June. Family obligations caused us to reunite and we ended up sleeping together several times that one weekend.
H said he wanted me back, wanted to come back, loved me, wanted more kids with me...but I was nervous. I said "not yet".

As it turns out, seems I was already practicing Plan A, even though I didnt even know it. I was strong, confident, not crying, trying to show him what he was missing whenever we did see eachother. Guess it worked.

Several weeks later, H calling most days, being nice, loving, etc, we decide to get back together. He moved home.


But, back to the story:
WH was home 1 week, when our cell phone bill came and I casually went thru it. I had NEVER done so before, but my gut must have told me to check...and its a good thing I did.
I found out about the A...which started back in May, so was a total of 3 months at that time.
They chatted and texted for HOURS..and HUNDREDS of texts during the day its amazing they could get any work done during that time.
I was devastated. I called the # on the bill and the woman on the other end said she knew my WH as a friend of her friends. Turned out to be true..the woman I spoke w/was the babysitter for OW.
I confronted WH about it. Denial all they way until after many hang ups, call backs, he finally said, yes, he knows her and we would discuss it later.

Long story short, WH SWORE he ended the A by that point, but I went thru phone records like a madwoman only to find that the week he moved back home, he called her and saw her most nights.
One night our daughter fell, and we took her to the the Emergency room... and he texted OW from there! Then spoke w/her as soon as we got home and I went to bed. I was SO ANGRY!

The Friday of the 1st week WH was home, he spent the night away from the house. At that point I wasnt clued into the OW, so I believed his story of drinking w/friends and staying out until 5am. Didnt want to be a naggy wife, so let him go have his fun.
Well, I'm sure you can figure out that he was w/ OW that night too.

WH still denied the PA. Said nothing happened. Hardly wants to talk about it at all, which is so hard for ME because I want to/need to know EVERYTHING! He is NOT being transparent. Everything I know, is because of my militant snooping!!

I found out her name, her address, phone numbers, even found a picture of her in his wallet. Needless to say, its true when they always AFFAIR DOWN. OW is a single mom, 3 kids, living in ratty apartment.
He definitely did A down, which somehow makes me feel better. ??

The phone calls have definitely stopped, well, for the most part.
He is home most nights by 8pm or 9pm on the nights he works late, which I know he does b/c I call him at his office to check up. Have even driven by a few times and yes, his car is in the parking lot.

But, WH has a history of lying to me. So my question is, how do I know its REALLY over and that the contact has stopped at least on HIS part?

FWIW, I saw some texts back and forth again last Thursday and I confronted him. He denied so I called the number and told her I was a friend of OW and thought she had called but I didnt recognize the #.
Th *nice lady* (an unsuspecting friend of OW) told me OW used her cell phone the night before.
CAUGHT!!

OW thought she could fool me by using another #.
And then the other night, she texted him again at 1230AM!
I was LIVID.
WH deleted the message and said he would not respond.

But, how do I know he isnt calling her from his work phone?
He wouldnt be dumb enough to still use his cell, knowing I check it daily, hourly even.

To make it worse, I just found out I am pregnant w/ our 2nd child. I am happy about it, but scared that THIS wont even wake him up. HE is happy too, he says. Says he IS commited to me and our family. He SAYS he wants this, loves me etc.
But, I can tell he going thru the depressed phase...although he does seem better this week.

Now, another problem looms. D and I are scheduled to go out of town, w/out WH, on Saturday for one week, to visit my sister. My whole family is going, had it planned for 6 months.

If I am to follow Plan A, I cant go, right? Should I cancel the trip and feign sickness?
My mother will never understand. I am no good at lying but not ready at all, at all, to expose the A to them, and or tell them I am expecting #2 also.
The reunion between WH and I is so new, and then I found out about OW, that its caught me all off guard.

I love my WH...and he says he loves me...but how do I know for sure NC w/ OW is happening? I feel that I cant trust my WH...and I know I should't at this point either.

Oh, I also should mention that I did once call OW and told her he was BACK HOME w/ME.
SHE is the one who confessed to everything during that call. Most things I know about the A, SHE told me.
WH has hardly told me anything...but lies.

She even told me "I had no idea...I dont need this in my life...You have nothing to worry about..I'll get out" Dont worry about me anymore" etc.

But, obviously she isnt gone, especially if she is texting him again at midnight, just two days ago?

How can I get him to have NC w/ her? He SAYS he isnt, but I cant believe it especially when I see evidence otherwise.

Any help would be appreciaed. I am sorry if I am all over the place..but my mind is racing a 1000x and my anxiety is getting the better of me.

I am so sorry you have to be here.

I would not go on the trip. I had to cancel a very important trip that I had scheduled a couple of weeks after d-day myself.

It was one of the best things I did.

Does your husband work with the other woman?

Thank you moveforward.

I still have not decided if I should cancel the trip or not. I'm almost sure I wont go, but its so difficult to make that decision. My family will NEVER understand and how can I lie to them about this?

I want to appear strong to WH, plan A him like crazy...but the thought of letting him be alone, with the temptation to contact her is very frigtening to me.
I feel so confused about this.

And to answer your question, No. WH does not work with OW anymore. Before the A began, they did work together briefly (about 2 months).
They do however, work in the same industry, so the circle of friends is most likely the same.

I'm a mess this week, which I am sure has a lot to do with the stress of my upcoming "vacation". Sure wont feel much like a vacation but the alternative..staying here..worrying, possibly following him, checking phone records, is also too much for me to handle.

Agh. This is so awful. I feel so nervous today and yesterday was the pits too. I even drove by his work, the whole time, wondering, what is wrong with me?? How can I even stand for this? What am I doing here?

I saw him leave work around 5p...he went for a drink w/ a buddy. I did call him to check, and he didnt lie..said exactly where he was which made me feel better...but still..he was out...and I didnt go into the bar, so obviously I dont *really* know who he was with. He came home around 8pm.

All I am holding onto right now, is that he DID pull away from OW before he moved home last month.

When I called her, she mentioned this and so at least it feels good knowing he was ending things w/her, even before I found out about it.
Bad timing on his part I guess, that I found out just after we decided to reconcile.

OW told me very honestly that he did start pulling away (looking at the timing, it was exactly the week that he moved back home). WH told OW that he had "things on his mind, work stress, legal issues that he needed to take care of". So, while he didnt say "I AM GOING BACK TO MY WIFE", at least he did begin to end the A that time.

The hardest thing is knowing that he hasnt done 100% NC yet..and I dont know how to make that happen.
I'm fearful that he has been calling her from his work phone, or perhaps using someone else's cell to call her so his records wont be tracked. He knows I am checking the records....so he wont be stupid again.

But, OW *IS* still texting, and calling, and even though I'm postitive its only been a few times, (maybe 3 or 4 times in the last 2 weeks) which hopefully will help end the A, even ONE text, or one call is too much for me to handle.


I guess I'm having a hard time with talking w/WH about all this.
How do you Plan A things, but still bring this up? How do you demand or get them to agree to NC, and stick to it.

I wont get all crying or needy, but I'm still not sure how to approach this subject again, w/o him getting bothered that I'm bringing this up again. ??

IF he gets upset that I bring it up, is that a sign that he is still in contact and seeing OW? He wants to "move forward", and I know thats not dealing with the issue. But, isnt that part of Plan A?

Dont we have to get into Recovery before we can really hash this stuff out?

I am tempted to get a GPS and/or tape recorder for his car. But I'm afraid actually. I'm afraid of what I might find, which sounds silly I know. Because I definitely dont want to be blindsided, I'd much rather know now...if they are still in contact or still trying to carry on the A.

I guess its never a guarantee huh? I mean, so what if he comes home everynight, and doesnt call or text her from his cell. He could STILL see her during the day or use another phone if he wanted to right?
I just dont know how to get rid of this insecure feeling that I have.

Luckily, I've been able to hide that from him for the most part but then reading this board has me suspicious all over again. This week he seems better...and it has me worried that its becuase he is out of the withdrawl stage due to her calling/texting him last week.
That perhaps he seems better now, due to him getting his "Fix" again by either speaking with her or perhaps by thinking he will get to see her, w/o me to worry about, next week.

Guess I just answered my own question about whether or not I should leave town, eh? haha

I would go ahead and get a GSP for his car. That is one way to know for sure.

Thank you. I will look into GPS this weekend.


Exposure ?
I have already exposed to his parents which I did before finding MB and Plan A. Guess it was instinctual and I needed someone to tell.
IL's are behind ME 100%. They are wonderful.
At the time, I asked them not to tell WH that they knew.

They will be up to visit us in a few weeks...should they expose to their son then, that they know about A?
Obviously, I wont tell him they know....but I assume THEY should, right?

And, I'm also concerned about exposing to some of his friends & co-workers.
The problem is that I dont really know them.

Should I still try to expose to his co-workers and his other wayward friends, even though WH says the A is over?

My thinking is that they probably *already* know about OW...since some used to work w/her also.

Ah. I feel caught mid stage since I cant really prove the A is ongoing..but I cant prove otherwise either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

They should be free to talk to him and discourage the affair.

I copied something that explains why he needs to agree to no contact. See below -

The vast majority of couples I counsel who have been through the horror of an affair, have better marriages after the affair than before. It's because the affair jolts them into recognizing the need for building an affair-proof marriage, and the safety precautions they use help them create compatibility and love. But has the offended spouse forgiven the offender in these marriages? Yes and no.

First let's try to understand what forgiveness is. One illustration is telling a person who owes you $10,000 that he won't have to pay you back. You "forgive" the debt. In other words, forgiveness is eliminating a obligation of some sort.

But we generally don't think of money when we think of the need of forgiveness. Instead, we are concerned about inconsiderate behavior that has caused us great pain and suffering -- the pain that an affair causes, for example. Forgiveness in these situations means thinking about the person as if the offense never took place. That is extremely difficult to do. The offended spouse usually thinks, what can he or she do to make it up to me. How can I be compensated for the pain I've suffered.

To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.

I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be stupid to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.

As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.

So let's talk about just compensation. What could the offending spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? After all, it's probably the most painful experiences anyone could ever put his or her spouse through.

The first act of compensation to you from your husband should be to end his relationship with the other woman once and for all. He should never see or talk to her again, even if it means leaving his job or moving your family to another state. The reason should be obvious, but in case there's some confusion, he should be reminded that every contact he will ever have with this woman will be like a knife in your heart. He has already caused you to suffer unbearable pain, and any further contact with his ex-lover would keep you suffering. In your case, the affair is probably over, but has your husband taken precautions to never see or talk to his ex-lover again?

And then he should put extraordinary precautions in place to guarantee that another affair will not take it's place. Has he considered the circumstances that led to his affair? Intoxication, business trips that separate you overnight, close friendships with those of the opposite sex, recreational relationships that do not include you, and so forth, should be subject to scrutiny. What was it that made him vulnerable? Whatever it was, he should take extraordinary precautions to avoid it in the future. It's part of just compensation for the suffering he's caused you to bear.

While there's no excuse for an affair, and if your husband takes the extraordinary precautions I've suggested he will never have another affair again, there are "reasons" that people have affairs. And those reasons must also be addressed when considering just compensation.

I've made the point in His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage that spouses usually have affairs because their emotional needs are not being met in the marriage. The way to affair-proof a marriage is for couples to meet each other's most important emotional needs. So whenever one spouse has an affair, the other should try to learn to meet the unmet needs that led to the affair.

That's a tough sell to someone who has just learned about their spouse's unfaithfulness. I'd sooner kill him than meet his needs, is the most common reaction. Besides, we haven't talked about compensation at all. Instead, we've gone and blamed the offended spouse for the affair!

But in most cases, neither spouse is meeting the other's needs prior to the affair. The reason that there were not two affairs is often a lack of opportunity for the offended spouse. And sometimes when there is that opportunity, there actually are two affairs.

The point I'm making is that in most cases both the offending and offended spouses' emotional needs were not being met by each other prior to the affair. One compensation for the affair, therefore, is for the offending spouse to learn to meet the emotional needs of the offended spouse. But if I can also motivate the offended spouse to do something that should have been done all along, meet the offending spouse's emotional needs, the arrangement seems more fair to the offending spouse. There is not only compensation for the affair, but the one of the conditions that may have created the affair (unmet emotional needs) are removed. The marriage is restored and affair-proofed.

But forgiveness is still necessary even after compensation is made. That's because there's really nothing that can completely compensate for the betrayal of infidelity. Even after compensation is made, there is still the need to forgive. But it's sure makes a lot more sense after the unfaithful spouse makes an effort to restore the relationship.

Using this meaning of forgiveness, the person asking to be forgiven must first demonstrate an awareness of how inconsiderate the act was and how much pain his or her spouse was made to suffer. Second, he or she must express some plan to assure the forgiver that steps have been taken to avoid the painful act in the future. Extraordinary precautions to never see or talk to the former lover, and to avoid circumstances that might ignight an new affair should be part of the plan for recovery. And another part of the plan is for both spouses to meet each other's unmet emotional needs that may have given the unfaithful spouse a "reason" to be unfaithful. As it turns out, it's the successful completion of that plan that's the compensation that leads to "forgiveness." Learning to meet each other's most important emotional needs is the plan that usually does the trick.

But, unlike the repayment of $10,000, where payee suffers a $10,000 loss in order to provide compensation, in marriage, the compensation does not lead to a loss. Your husband should guarantee that he will never have another affair, and learn how to meet your important emotional needs, as you should learn to meet his. I'd say that's just compensation, wouldn't you? And yet, the price your husband pays will make him a much better and a much happier person.

There's another important point that I should make regarding forgiveness. When you discovered your husband's affair, you learned two things about him that you had not known before. You learned that he would make decisions that did not take your feelings into account (having the affair), and you learned that he would lie about his behavior to cover it up. In other words, you learned that he was not following the Policy of Joint Agreement or the Policy of Radical Honesty. That discovery was undoubtedly very disillusioning to you. Who wants to be married to a man who is inconsiderate and dishonest?

Now you are trying to create a new understanding with your husband, where he will agree to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty. Good for you! Apparently, he has not yet agreed to these important issues, and that has a great deal to do with your reluctance to forgive him. I'm sure you will not find forgiveness in your heart until he agrees to be honest with you, and to take your feelings into account in the future.

But forgiveness will be much easier after you are convinced that your husband considers your feelings whenever he makes a decision (follows the Policy of Joint Agreement), is completely honest with you about everything (follows the Policy of Radical Honesty), and is meeting your important emotional needs. For you to be convinced, he must not only agree to these changes, but he must also demonstrate his commitment by living them for a while. Forgiveness may still require a bit of generosity on your part, but if he makes these changes, I think you'll be able to handle it. When that happens, the burden of resentment you are carrying will be lifted, and the love you have for each other will be restored.

thank you Believer.
I have read that several times, but it is always a good reminder.

I decided not to go out of town as planned. I had to bite the bullet and just tell my family it wasnt going to happen. They were disappointed but understood.
So far, I'm very happy w/my decision to stay in town.

Last night was a good night for me and WH. He was very affectionate and open to talking and we even spoke about the recent text msgs from OW. He admitted that *she* indeed has been texting but allowed me to look thru his phone and swore that he had not replied. He says his last reply to her was about a week ago and was only to tell her to stop. He has not spoken to or replied to her texts since.
I can only hope this is true, and will continue to monitor the phone bills until I'm certain on NC.

And I'm getting to the point now, where I'll bring up a NC letter. I think that will really help, I just dont know how to approach that subject. I'm sure I'll figure it out soon.

Oh and another positive I had last night was a vm on WH's cell phone. WH fell asleep so I grabbed his cell and listened to the msgs. There were many msgs and I felt sure I would hear OW's voice soon. But no...all of them were friends or work clients of his.

One in particular, not sure who as I didnt recognize the voice-- said, "how are you man? Whats going on...you are probably at home with your wife and child. I really hope things work out for you. well, gimme a call soon buddy".

This vm made me feel SO good. I wish I knew who it was, but then does it matter? The fact that his friends know we are trying to reconcile and that at least ONE of them is supportive, is great for me to hear and know!

Sometimes I worry about his friends b/c most are younger, single or divorced...and they dont get or care, what its like and how he needs to be responsible because he is a married man w/ kids.

Anyhow.thats the update. I hope this continues and that WH keeps feeding me the compensation that I deserve and that he is giving me now.

Oh, and I have to reiterate how important following Plan A's do's and dont's are.

Prior to last week, I was continually saying "I love you" . He would sometimes reply with a short "luv u too"...or not reply to me at all, which hurt.

Then I read the DONTS and stopped saying it all the time..well, stopped saying it completely for several days.

Well, Friday we were talking on the phone and he had to call me back. I missed his return call, so he left me a vm which he ended w/an "I love you...very much".

I called him back before listening to the msg..and he said "I left you a vm" I asked what did it say? He said..."...I love you".
I replied with, "oh how sweet of you. I love you too".

This might be small, but I consider it a huge victory to have a WH go from only replying to my I love yous, to actually bringing this back all on his own.

How are you doing emotionally? Are you able to eat properly and sleep? It's really important to take good care of yourself.

They usually come back to the marriage and feel AWFUL. But that takes some time. Hopefully he will maintain NC. I would ask him about writing one.

Sounds like things are turning around. It was good for you to stay home and be with your husband. And yes, it was good to tell his parents. For when they come to visit, there will be no secrets...GOOD!

The one thing that the wayward spouse doesn't want is a needy person. For you to discontinue the 'I Love You' was great. He did hear you, and didn't know how to respond. For he heard it so many times and now he is responding because he wants to.

You need to take care of yourself during this time and your pregnancy.

How am I doing emotionally?
Honestly, I really dont know.

I seem to be doing well. I try not to focus on the A all the time. I am doing a lot of soul searching, rehashing my M over the past 4 years, and seeing and learning from where I went wrong.
Trying to give EN to WH, since I was not giving them to him for a long time-- which I can say w/ 100% certainty fully contributed to his A.

I havent cried about this since D-day on 8Aug. Not quite sure what to make of my non-emotion, other than its probably a self-preserving tactic. I have to be strong for my D, and pg. Life goes on, being a mommy doesnt stop, right?

Sometimes I think I'm the type who is strong, until one day it hits me like a ton of bricks and I fall apart. I think I'm scared for that day, if it comes.
And I'm frightened beyond words that I'll discover info that the A continues.
Right now, I have no proof which is encouraging, but its never a guarantee. That is the hardest part...the limbo of hoping its over and not ever really knowing for sure.

WH continues his transparency.

He was home all weekend with us, which might not seem like a big deal to some, but over the past year (since D was born) he would go out w/friends a lot, go out on Saturdays-see friends etc), and leave me home alone, that I guess his being home, all weekend, feels good. At least I KNOW he wasnt w/OW, couldnt be, b/c he was home w/us.

We talked about his job last night. As I mentioned before, they worked together for about 2mo back in late spring.
I asked how come he left that office. He said more $ working at another and he then said other guys from that office wanted to move there now too. I asked if SHE wanted to move, what would happen?
He said boss wud ask his thoughts and he would say "I dont like that idea". I said that was good b/c I couldnt handle and was NOT a good thing to work w/OW. I finally told him about MB site and that he HAS to maintain NC if we are to move forward past this.

Seems small, but WH and I have not talked like this, openly and freely, for a LONG time. We love eachother to death, but our M was lacking communication, and intimacy both E and P, since just before our D was born.

I love that we seem to be able to talk more now, and seem to be doing well. Even our mutual friends have commented that we "are glowing" when together.

FWIW, our friends know we were separated for 5 months, but they do not know about his A.
I feel no need to share, since H came back first, and THEN I discovered the A.
And for some reason, knowing the A started only when we were apart, and ended when we came back together, is also helping me cope. Its enabled me to see what and where I went wrong. How WH has EN I need and want to meet.

So, things seem better. I say seem, well, because, can you ever know for sure? Its a rough time right now. I am doing okay, but its the HARDEST thing I have ever had to deal with. I feel like my "fairy tale" love has ended. I NEVER thought WH would cheat. Since day one of our R, he said he would never. I told him I wud not stay if it did happen. But, that was 10yrs ago.
We have a history, a home, a child and now another on the way. Our situation is different now then when we first met.

I sometimes cant believe I am still here. What kind of a woman puts up w/ all I have over the past 5yrs, and now an A, and STILL stays?

But...I love him. Our D deserves her parents to be together. We do love eachother, I know we do. We wouldnt still be here, back together after all the hurt and pain, if we didnt.

I love him...but this new sense of insecurity is at times overwhelming. It makes me sad to wonder if I will always feel this way? I just want that security blanket of knowing "he loves me and would never hurt me", back.

But, its gone and I know it wont return. I will probably always be jaded. Hopefully we can repair the damage done and more forward to a happier, healthier M.

I think you are going to have to take this slowly. I'm concerned about your husband lying to you BEFORE the affair. Also he spends too much time with friends.

The Harleys suggest spending 15 hours a week doing fun things together WITHOUT the kids.

Also, what else has happened in the last 6 years. Have you always been the one putting more effort into the marriage?
What kind of father is he?

haha. Slow is a word I am not on good terms w/. ;p

I've always been one to want something NOW and/or right away, so patiently taking things slowly is not easy. But, I dont really have a choice and is the only and best thing I can do right now.

ITA. We definitely need to spend much more time together.

In late '04, we bought a house, had a baby, and he changed jobs to one based 100% on commission. To say money was tight, is a huge understatement. Talk about a year of change and stress!
Neither of us were meeting the EN of our M. We were just trying to survive!

WH turned to his friends and I turned my attention to our D, 100%. Looking back, I made such a mistake, but cud not see it. We HARDLY spent ANY time together, let alone w/out our D.
MY immediate family is very demanding too, and I also mistakenly put more effort into that, than into my own M.

I am not trying to make excuses, or make it seem like my fault. I am just now aware of the mistakes I made and wanted to give an idea of WHY WH spent so much time w/friends. I was not a happy person, most of the time, to come home to. I see that now. Why would he have wanted to spend time at home? And with me? Always mad about something or another.

Anyhow. I myself have come out of the fog. Yes, I have put a lot of effort into the M, but it wouldnt be fair, nor truthful to say I did more than he did..and vice versa.

Oh, and he is a fantastic father. He really loves and cherishes our D. I'm certain that she was a huge motivator in his decision to return home.

OW is still texting.

I grabbed his cell today and went thru the call log. OW texted him last night again, twice.

WH had deleted her texts, but I found via the msg history. Plus, I would have seen them today anyhow b/c I check the bill online everyday.

I asked WH about it and he did *not* deny it.

I asked what she wanted and he said just "how are you" type stuff, but I dont believe that. He said I DONT REPLY to her....and as far as I can tell, he doesnt

Of course, he could be using someone else's cell or call her from his office, which I cant check.

I told him "she HAS to be gone, 100%, no, 200%, if we are to move forward w/our M as planned".
He said I agree...300% even.

We were very calm when discussing it. I was very matter of fact about it which was difficult, but made me feel good knowing I can do it.

I finally told him about writing a NC letter and he said, he was willing to do it.

I even joked that I would HAND DELIVER it to her if needed. He chuckled and said, thats fine. I was actually surprised at his demeanor about the NC letter. I guess I half expected him to laugh it off, or say it was dumb. But, instead he said he was willing to send one.

I sat at the table and told him again, that I am working on this for the sake of our family. That I love him and am willing to move past this with him, but we cant do it with 3 people in the relationship. He agreed.

I then said I just want you to know that you DONT have to be here. You can make the decision to be w/OW if that is what you want. You dont need to lie to me, or hide things from me or see her behind my back if that is what you are doing.
You are free to go. I only want you here because you WANT to be here and b/c you love me and DD.

He looked at me and said he knows that and that he wants to be here...which is why he IS here.
And, I believe him. WH is and has always been the kind of man who only does something if HE wants to. I used to think it was selfish, but I see that its actually a freeing way to live.
Unlike me, he doenst live his life on guilt, or do something b/c he *has to* or *should*.
So, for this reason, I do believe that he is here, because of his own decision and b/c he wants our M to work.

He kissed me a nice kiss and said ILY before he left for work. I feel good about our conversation, but there is still that pit in my stomach that I cant get rid of.

Part of me wants to text OW and tell her off! But, I think she would only get a rise out of it.

Oh, and I mentioned to WH that I find it interesting that she is still texting him when she KNOWS I will find out about it. Some nerve of her I said....its almost like she WANTS me to find out.
He made a face and said, yeah, I think thats why she is doing it.

I secretly am hoping that this will spark something, if it hasnt already, into WH's mind to see what kind of woman she is. Needy, desperate much??

I am hoping OW turns into the exact woman that I *AM NOT* being. Its kind of funny, but then again, I just hope that WH is telling ME the truth and that I dont turn out to be the fool here.

He has been home everynight, right after work, or shortly thereafter for the past 2 weeks. He has allowed me to ask questions, is being transparent, lets me talk about my feelings, needs etc.

I DO feel that he is being O&H w/me, but, I still question everything.

AND, it bothers me that he DELETES her texts. Makes me wonder WHAT she is saying. I think its time for me to ask him to TELL ME each and every time she makes contact. AND I need to READ her texts when she does send them.

What do you think? Thats a reasonable way to handle it right?

I guess its difficult knowing what to do. Can we be in recovery, if OW is still trying to make contact? So far, my only evidence is that SHE is contacting him, not the other way around.

Have you asked him to write a no contact letter?

I'd suggest changing the cell phone number altogether as soon as the NC letter is sent. In the meantime, yes, I would insist on reading the texts and being told when she texts him, continuing to text him when she knows you will find out is rubbing the disrespect in your face and I personally wouldn't let her get away with it. Contacting her other than the NC letter isn't a good idea, but I'd make sure that was done asap along with changing the phone number. I know with our phones, you can block numbers that you don't want to receive texts from also, might want to check into that...

thank you. We will work on the NC letter tonight, when WH gets home from work and send it off tomorrow.

I'll look into blocking her #. I thought of changing his cell #, but I doubt he would go for it. A lot of his business is conducted via his cell, so it would a major PITA to do it. I like the blocking her # much more. Although, if he is willing to do anything..then I guess changing his # would fall w/in that arena, right?

Well, its official.
The A continues.

Actually, its not "official", but I may as well assume so.

WH has been back and we've been "Working" on our marriage since Aug.
OW continued to call in Aug and then several times in Sept. I kept a close eye on WH, and his call logs, and found no evidence that he replied to her texts or calls or that he was with her.
However, now I am not sure. And well, you just cant ever be 100% certain.

I've started keeping a journal of all WH's activities.
What time he comes home, where he "Says" he goes after work, who calls him and what time, etc.

Well, so far, I've come up with nothing, but now I feel that I'm only fooling myself and that WH has gone deep undercover with contacting or seeing OW.

A few weeks ago, I saw a text from the same area code as OW's cell/home #'s. (the tip off here is that most of our friends's # --edited to take out the specific area codes )are xyz..and hers is nmop due to the city she lives in. So, her # is a definite trigger for me)

I wrote the number down, and tried to find out who it was. WH had deleted the text, but again, I wrote the number down and kept it in my journal.

I decided not to call, but at the time, just keep an eye on that number to see if it came up again.
That was back on 10/2.

And the same number re-appeared last night!!

So, I called it, and sure enough, it was OW's voice on the message. Seems that OW has changed HER cell # and is again contacting my H.

I hung up from that call and immediately called WH.

I totally erred here and did all kinds of LB's, but dangit, I'm just so tired and out of energy to be Plan A'ing all the time.
When is it MY turn to get some EN's met??

He of course denied, denied, denied and then when I said to stop lying, he said "I DIDNT REPLY, did I"? Then he turned it around on me, that I'm doing this to myself, and to us..and that he's not sleeping w/her..not talking to her, not seeing her so drop it.
Finally, he was so angry and yelling and telling me that I have "Ruined his morning", that he hung up on me.

So, I'm left feeling like I blew it due to the LB's...and yet, I'm so angry that he would continue to lie and turn this around on me.

But then again, IF he were not seeing her, or talking to her, or IF he were "clean" so to speak, he would be CALM about it and/or not lie. Say something like, "yes, she did call me and I deleted her message. I dont know why she is calling. I have tried to get her to stop."

Wouldnt you think he would be AGREEING with me? Rather than LIE about "I dont know WHO's number that is"..then turn around and say "I DIDNT REPLY to her"...and yell and get angry..and hang up.
I would think so anyways.

Oh, and WH has a new work schedule that he works 12-9p M-F and Fridays its a normal 9-5p.
Well, he started resuming his "coming home late" again about 2 weeks ago (hmm..conincidently enough about the same time as the OW's text). He has been out consisently until 10-11p almost every night, and there were a few nights last week where he came home at close to 1AM!

I had called him many times one night and he never replied to my calls. But, when I texted him (it was 1130pm) he replied to my text right away, saying he "left his cell in the car, but have it now. I'm on my way home. Do you need anything? I love you. See you soon".

I didnt believe it then, and dont believe it now. But, what could I do. I couldnt prove otherwise. He says he was out with the guys from work...which he seems to be doing a lot again lately.

I guess I am the stupid one to keep putting up with this. I must give him too much credit.

Thinking, well, he needs his friend/guy time (always has), and if he gets off work at 9pm, and then comes home at 11pm or earlier, he couldnt have been with her, because she lives an hour from our house, and that wouldnt be enough time. She has kids to go home to...so couldnt be out with him that late...etc.
I dunno. I think I'm just trying to rationalize his unacceptable behavior.

I have myself all screwed up here.

Oh and another thing. Yeah, we SF alot in the beginning when he came home in Aug. Probably at the wrong time, considering I had no idea of the OW, and then when I did, my "he's mine" attitude came over me and I came on to him all the time. So, for the 1st month, the SF was great and frequent.

Well, now its nonexistent.

I dont know if its because I'm pregnant or not. I'm only 3 months along and not showing, but it seems WH wont touch me with a ten foot poll. Again, I rationalized it, saying that he did this same thing when I was pg with our Daughter.

But, now, I think he was probably having an A back then too..because what man goes w/o SF an ENTIRE pregnancy AND even months afterwards too?? I am almost sure he was A'ing back then too...but with a different person. He had not met THIS OW until May 06.

So, I'm coming to terms that this OW, is probably not his first, or only.

I did get myself completely checked for STDs, and thankfully I'm clear and free. I will go back in 6 mos for another HIV test just to make sure, because well, you just never know. I HAVE to protect my unborn child AND my 2 yr old daughter.

And last week, I noticed a change in his demeanor w/me. He isnt loving, isnt affectionate, and I told him my feelings on this...all while remembering the whole "Fog" idea and being in withdrawl etc, which I thought he had come out from.
When I asked about this, he says he "doenst know what I want him to say" and then only replied with "I love you".

His lack of resonse, communication, is so irritating!!



So when I aske him why we dont SF anymore(its been over a month now), or WHY he isnt loving, affectionate etc, he changes the subject, or turns his back..the other night he even said "What are you talking about? And then he started WHISTLING a song!
I was floored. Talk about avoiding the question and HOW disrepectful is that?? Also made me very sad and then I began wondering, I'm sure like most of you are already thinking, that HE IS getting his SF...just not from me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


I guess I am just at a crossroads. Definitely no SF now...especially since I've leared OW is still tring to make contact. I just cant take the chance.
And I'm FREAKING out that she either IS, or WILL become pregnant. She HAS three kids already..whats to stop her from having a 4th?
I mentioned this to WH..and again was met with...no reply.


So, my questions are:
What do I do from here?
Where do I go?
What do I say to him about this?
How do I approach this w/out LB. I'm so mad and so hurt and our history is that we have terrible communication..especially when its about something important.
Moreover, I already know that NO MATTER WHAT WH says, I'm not going to believe him.


I *knew* it was too good to be true...to think that OW stopped calling...stopped trying to get him back, etc.

I am just so angry, sad, confused and hurt. I feel like calling OW and telling her off....and/or getting info from her.

WH gives me NOOOOOOOOO information....or he lies.

Oh, and I read a post here about the "Passive Agressive Man" posted by someone. And oh my gosh.
While reading that site, tons of bells were going off in my head an I was amazed. WH is the CLASSIC PA man.

So, in case you are wondering...IF I decide to keep WH around...here are the demands I am going to make.
TODAY.

1. call her w/ me on the line and ask her WHY she is calling/texting, and
tell her to STOP. NOW.
(do you think this is a good idea? I really honestly feel like SHE will tell me what I'm not hearing from WH. He lies..and while she could too...I feel like SHE would tell me IF WH was still contacting HER too!. Right now, he denies that).
2. no contact letter sent TODAY!
3. Show me the texts. I ASKED you to, you said you would. You have not done so.
4. No going out after work. Come straight home.
5. Stop lying. How can I ever learn to trust you again, when you keep violating my trust?
6. Marriage counseling a must. If not, thats a deal breaker.
7. change your cell phone #. NOW.

(although, I dont see how changing his # will help...when she calls him...he will only tell me that it must have been one of their "mutual friends" who gave it to her. I know this is how he will turn it around.
What do you all think?


I'm just so disillusioned with people right now.
Cant believe my H would continue to hurt me, our DD, and unborn child. Cant belive another woman/mother, would hurt another woman's children..and potentially her own kids, when their R doenst work out in the future. Which, I'm pretty positive that even IF H and I dont work out...that theirs wont either.


I am just so PO'd right now..and I know its only been 3 months since 1st D-Day....which is actually longer than their entire A, but here we are and I still feel like we are back at the beginning.

Any help would be appreciated. Thx.

So, WH just called me again, and of course, he is all mad, AT ME, for causing this.

He says he doesnt care that I take it upon myself to be a detective. Says he HASNT SPOKEN to that woman in months.
Says he doesnt reply to her texts. Doesnt know why she is texting him in the first place.

Said "you can continue to think whatever you want to, but I know the truth".

Says I am the one trying to add up the info...so its ME who is creating the drama.

I asked him to call her 3way right now..he said no. YOU call and ask her he said.
Yeah, like I'd fall for that..I'm sure he already called and told her I found her #.
I told him this and he said.."see, there you go again..making things up in your mind".

To which I replied..yes, thats true. Because when I cant get the truth or information from YOU...my mind DOES and WILL go wild imagining all the possibilities.

But then again, I have NO TRUST in him, so it is true that no matter WHAT he tells me, I wont believe him.
And THAT makes this even worse.

Anyhow....I'm just so overwhelmed right now.
He wants to continue to act like its no big deal...and I am bringing this up all on my own.

He did say he would get rid of his phone, or at the very least CHANGE his number. He agreed to that.
So, I will make him do that.

But then again, that still doesnt stop them from continuing their deep underground A, if thats whats going on.
It just means she will be more careful.

Obviously, she has in the past called him from DIFFERENT numbers, changed her OWN number, and texted him when she KNOWS I check.

But, I havent said anything about the cell phones for at least a month. So perhaps they thought I was "over it" and had stopped checking.

I wish I could afford a GPS...I see this as my next move. Unfortunately, finances are way too tight to be spending that kind of money right now. But I sure would if I could.

NO NO NO

No Contact means No Contact.

Nobody should be calling the OW - not you and not WH.


YES YES YES


Yes to all of these - but don't be surprised when he refuses. He's gotten away with this for a very long time and he thinks he knows exactly how to handle having both a wife and a girlfriend.

If you have not already, please look at the links in my sig line and see if they sound familiar to you.

Sorry you have to be here.
Mulan

Mulan,
Thank you. And YES, it was YOUR Boomerang link that I read from another post.

I was FLOORED when I read it.

That is my WH to a T.
100%. Perfect PA Man.

I had NEVER in my whole 10yrs with my WH, read anything that resembled him and his personality SO perfectly and SO Exactly, until reading that just the other day.

So, again, thank you for posting so others can read and so I could eventually find this out too.


I even spoke w/his mom yesterday and shared that site w/her. I read her some of the "commonalities" of a PA man, and she too said it was WH's personality. EXACTLY.

I need to read more about this type of person, and how to deal with it.
I didnt see the 2nd link, so I'll be going there now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seems to me, since I know this now, its sorta up to me as to IF I stay with a person like this, then I need to be prepared to deal with it.
Can no longer be a victim when I know its how he is.

Thank you again for responding.

I am going to make his write the NC letter tonight and I'll send it personally myself in tomorrow's mail.

And yes, I'm very much prepared for the backlash from WH about my "demands".
I know he will object to MC, and will definitely object to not going out w/friends after work.
Well, he MAY not reject it outright, but when he PASSIVLY doesnt respond and then AGRESSIVELY goes out anyhow, when he knows I'll be disappointed, THAT is the rejection itself.

Again, thank you. You have wonderful advice that I've read on other threads.

HBS,

You have a strong diposition and heart. Even with having to deal with your pregnancy, you are showing resilience which is very encouraging. C/b the motherly protective instinct in you or just your character. Either way it is proving beneficial for you.

So you realize you are dealing with an OW who thinks she has a right to your money man, right? She is not about to give up this gold mine.

Ask your WS.... (still consider him as a ws, ok?)...ask him. What do these (OWs) do for him that makes it worth all the misery? Yea..... don't limit it to one....make it sound worse than you know or it may be, because when you do he may resort to telling you more in his defense to NOT look as bad as you are making it seem. Crazy? Yes, it is....and very much the way a WS thinks. So you gotta be one step ahead of his crap.

Have you read Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs? Read up. It will help. Also it is best you get a recovery plan going for you 1st.

Your M recovery will require the WS shed that WS skin and let your H come back. The work on the M recovery is mainly on him not you. His anger shows he isn't ready for real recovery and a bad liar. Learn to use his actions against him by redirecting his actions to your advantage.

We share a technique some here call 'reverse babble' it helps the BS give back the guilt from the WS and learn to gather info, use it and move forward.

Now do you know how t/d a background check on the OW? When the OW gets brazen enough, expect her to try to control you. So are you prepared for it? Btw, you may want to read up on your rights as far as harrassment goes. So when the OW does stuff you will when and what to report. It doesn't take much.

Do the background check 1st. You can do some for free and more indepth research will require paying a fee. Start with zabasearch(dot)com.

L.

I can't believe you put up with him going out every night after work. Does he spend ANY time with his kid? Regardless of whether or not he is having an affair, this behavior is immature and irresponsible. That is single guy behavior!!

Thank you for reading and for responding.

Orchid,
Great advice and thank you for saying I have a strong dispostion. I do, but at times, I do think I hang on too much when I should just cut my losses and move on.
Thats how I am feeling right now. I just dont know what to do or what to think. I am definitely NOT feeling very strong right now. And FWIW, I *still do* consider him a WS.
Until I know 100% otherwise, I just have to assume.

I just checked his text log this AM and sure enough, a number from the past..that OW has used to call him from...appeard at 11pm on Saturday night.
Funny thing is that WH was asleep and *I* checked the message myself. It was short..and said "what is X's number"?
I assumed it was just one of his friend's asking about another friend's number. But, now I am not so sure.

He didnt reply to it, however he KNOWS I saw that message b/c I did it right in front of him and I think he was pretending to be asleep at that point. He then woke up and went into the bathroom and of course, had his phone w/him.
Today when I cheked the log, the # didnt jump out at me until I looked at it again. Yep, she has used it (its her Friend's) to text him before, after she found out I KNEW about her.
I've never seen or read ANY of her previous texts to see what they say, but I do now think that this text was:
1. a code
2. a way to avoid HER # appearing. I'm assuming here, that he *told her* I'm onto her new cell # and not to use it.

ITs either these reasons, or else, If I am to belive WS...
3. the text was a way to get him to reply to her, thereby initiating contact (IF there hasnt been any as HE says).

She is a tricky B isnt she! However, I'm pretty sure now, that it was a code for him to call her.

Fiat,
Yes, you are absolutely right. WH IS very immature AND he does still want to act and live as if he were single.
He just refuses to SEE it that way. Believe me, this has been a sore spot in our marriage from day one. Its no wonder our M has been so up and down and I want to pull my hair out all the time.
He does spend *some* time w/ us as a family. Weekends (well, with the exception of this one) he is home or out w/us all day. He rarely goes out on the wknds, except w/us.
M-F is a totally different story as he gets to do whatever he wants to.
I guess I'm just at a loss as to HOW to make him stop doing it. I cant MAKE him come home. I cant MAKE him stop going out for a drink w/the guys after work.

Any advice? Besides telling me to give him an ultimatum, that is?

With a Passive agressive man, ultimatums dont work. And I'm NOT ready for Plan B yet, as we were seperated for 5 months just this summer, and I'm not ready to go that route again.

Orchid,
I wanted to address your post again---

quote- What do these (OWs) do for him that makes it worth all the misery? Yea..... don't limit it to one....make it sound worse than you know or it may be, because when you do he may resort to telling you more in his defense to NOT look as bad as you are making it seem. Crazy? Yes, it is....and very much the way a WS thinks

This is a GREAT idea. I will try that!

And yes, I have heard of *reverse babble* however, I must admit, I'm not that good at it yet.
I read SO much info, that at times I get overwhelmed and then when it comes time to use the info..I forget it all ESPECIALLY when its in the heat of the moment. KWIM?

Is there any post or place that I can get more info on the reverse babble and good examples to use, specifics, myself?
Thanks again for your reply.

And WRT, HN/HN, yes I have read it, but not yet read SAA.
This weekend, I picked up the book After the Affair, and Living with the Passive Agressive Man.

They did not have SAA at the store, so I think I'll order that online today. I found LWPAM full of great info, but not so much, for the other book. I dunno. I guess I just want to hear that my M is going to work out so long as I work hard at it. And it definitely didnt sound that way to me from this book. No wonder I didnt care for it. LOL

This is, I know, setting myself up for disappointment, but its how I feel. I just want hope, some hope, ANY hope that things will get better for us. I really miss the honeymoon period of 1st part of our R and M, and then again the 1st part of our "getting back together" this summer.

Seems now, we're back to the awful feeling times that we went thru right before our seperation and then during our time apart. I cant and wont deal with this again, so we've got to find a way to fix it.

I also know that at this point, the R of our M, really IS up to WS.
THAT is a very difficult concept to grasp, esp when HE Doesnt seem to see, or better yet, WONT ACCEPT or ADMIT, that HE is the major problem here.
Its very frustrating, especially when he turns it all around on me and I end up the bad guy.

----weekend update follows-----
So, Friday after work I went to pick up our D from daycare, which is normal for me.
However, I could not drop my suspicious feelings that WS was out w/OW.
He frequents this bar, and I've done several "Drive bys" before to check up on him. He has always been there when he says he is..but for some reason, I had a bad feeling this Friday especially after our last phone convo. I had a bad feeling that he was going to see her and not come home.

So, D and I headed out to see if he was indeed at the bar. If not, from there I was prepared to drive to OW's apt to see. However, when we pull into the bar p.lot, sure enough I saw his car. I was half relieved.
What I *didnt* expect was for him to be outside and to SEE ME driving by.

I tried to drive off quickly but he caught me and called my cell to come back by. I did and he was very nice, even got our D out of the car and introduced her to the guys he was with (coworkers). He opened my door too, but I didnt respond for getting out, so I think he decided to just leave me there. He did kiss me and said not to worry, that he was NOT with any females, etc....
He said I was crazy for driving all the way back to check on him, but fine, whatever. Said anytime I want, I can drive by and see WHERE he parks his car and if its NOT there, then he is down the street at his office.
He was kind, well, sorta, but then again, he had been drinking for a few hours, I'm sure.

So we left and he called a few times after that saying he was on his way home (around 730pm). I stopped at the book store, and when I got home, he was already there, but I could tell he was upset.
See how upset HE gets when *I* am not at home and HE is??
He cant STAND that.

So anyways. After getting home, we hung out as a family. Made dinner and watched TV for a while.
We didnt talk about anything "important" as I didnt really want to go there and HE NEVER DOES. LOL

He finally fell asleep on the couch so I layed down next to him. He snuggled for a minute...well, I should say I snuggled with him and all of the sudden it hit me as to HOW MUCH he has changed with me.
We USED to be SO much more affectionate. We used to ALWAYS hug and kiss and lay on the couch, spooning, so to speak and he ALWAYS held me close to him.
But that night, it was as if I was a leper, as he BARELY touched me and felt like his arm around me was like touching hot coals. He placed it on my waist for a minute, but then removed it right away.
I kissed him a few times too...just wanted to see HOW he would respond and if MAYBE we could breakthru the no SF. (Even though I was not ready to give in yet..for STD reasons etc).
And well, he pulled away. Just as I knew he would.

Finally we just got up and went to bed.

So Saturday, he got up and went to his IC. Well, its not exactly an IC..its group therapy for anger mgt (court imposed due to our fight back in Mar 06).
He typically comes home right after , but not that day.
This is where I *KNEW* he was angry and showing it in his classic PA way.

He NEVER said he wasnt coming back, but instead, left and said "see you guys later".
He went out..and came home around 6pm. Gone ALL DAY.

He called at noon and said he was at his office as he had work to do. My 1st instinct was that he went there to use his phone to call OW..and while there..call me from his WORK # so that he could PROVE that he was there.
I asked what his plans were after, and he said none..that he was just coming home.

So, around 2pm, no call again, and he wasnt home. I got in my car and drove all the way out to OW's house. CRAZY? Yes, I know...but I had to know.
Luckily, he wasnt there. Not that he couldnt have been there earlier, or later, or not that he was not somewhere else, with HER...but at least I could confirm he wasnt THERE.
I just went back home after that, half hoping that he would be there, but of course he wasnt.

He finally came home around 6pm, about 1 hour after I did.
He came in, like nothing was wrong.

I decided to just drop it and not ask WHERE he had been and WHY he was out all day. I just wasnt in the mood and I sort of knew that should I bring any questions up, he would get upset, turn it around on me (classic PA) and then get his way by leaving again. (he has done this many times before, its not a surprise.)

So the rest of the night consisted again of just hanging out and watching tv. We didnt talk much, certainly was not affectionate and I could tell he was VERY angry with me.

So, instead of addressing that he was MAD at me for spying on him on Friday night, or calling him or asking about OW, or WHATEVER the reason he is mad is, he didnt, and instead took it out on me the next day with silence and absence.

So as you can see, it was NOT a good weekend.

Sunday, I finished reading the PA book, and got lots of tips and ways of approaching a PA man.
I cant even begin to say how RELIEVED I am to know, that he is PA. At least this gives me some sort of Explanation as to WHY is does/is/acts as he does.
Knowing this takes the pressure off me, knowing its NOTHING I do, or did. Its all him.
Of course, I myself do contribute and enable his behaviour, but I'll work on stopping that. I'm just relieve to know I'm not crazy afterall.


Oh so Sunday night, things were okay. I was trying to be nice, not start anything...but, later on I thought, heck with it..lets talk about our R.
I got out the EN worksheet.

A few weeks ago, I was telling him, during a night out w/just the 2 of us, about HN/HN and the EN concept.
At the time, I related it to a couple we know, who is going thru M issues of their own.
He seemed to understand the idea and agreed that the are not on the same pg w/EN's.

Well, last night, I got out the EN worksheet and asked if he wanted to take a quick quiz about our R.
He halfheartedly agreed, so I started in.

The 1st answer about Affection, he stated he gave a 3. Middle of the road.
Said he is satisfied there.

2nd question re: SF.
He said he was fine there and no issues. Then I asked HOW MUCH he would like it..and this is where it all went downhill.

He refused to answer.

Said it was dumb. Not a valid question. (now remember, we have not had SF together for over a month, so this is another SORE spot for me/him).
So I said, come on dear, just say in a perfect world, how many times a week/month or whatever would you like to DTD?
He finally said FINE!! ONCE A MONTH. HAPPY NOW?????

After that, he was very UPSET and said he didnt care about this STUPID quiz and NO QUIZ is going to tell him HOW to be or WHAT his problem is.
He even went so far as to call it an "Oprah quiz" or stupid "Cosmo quiz" w/no merit.

I said, okay, we dont have to take the quiz then, to which he replied, no its okay. We can do it, just now that I dont care what its GOING TO SAY ABOUT ME.
I tried to explain that there is no RIGHT or WRONG answer and that its just for US to find out about EACHOTHER. For him to know that I would like SF more, and for me to know where HE STANDS.
I think he started to feel badly, but then didnt reply again. Said, go ahead, whats the next question.
This is where MY PA came in and I said it was fine and I put the quiz away. I actually just DROPPED it on the floor, sorta hoping he would pick it up later and read thru MY replies.

So we sat there and watched the Amazing Race. I found myself pouting a bit and began to laugh at myself. I could tell he felt badly too, because he started to be nicer, speak to me more, and laugh a little which he WASNT doing earlier in the day.

We finally went to be around 9pm. He got in bed, turned over and pretended to be asleep. I got my book out and started reading the whole time being more po'd than ever.
Our D was in our bed and when she went to sleep, I asked him to take her to her room and he said no.
"she'll just come right back, crying. So just leave her here".
My thought was that she being in our bed, gives him the space he wants between us and allows him to rationalize why we dont SF and why he isnt affectionate to me in the bedroom.

I am just so tired of going thru this. Ever weekend, every night, hoping for something from him. Hoping for a spark, a touch, a hug, smile what EVER just to show me SOMETHING!

So, you ask about a Recovery Plan.

Are you saying I should have a plan, like a Plan B?
Or a R plan for our M.

Am I supposed to Plan A, again?

I'm just not sure I have the patience for it. When will it be MY turn to get my EN's met?

I feel like I give and give and give, and he gets to take take take while returing NOTHING.

And its even worse because a lot of his behaviours now, are behaviors *I* used to exhibit myself. Non-affection, PA'ness, pouty behaviour etc.

Its like the tides have turned and he is riding the wave as long as he can and will get away with.

I just dont know how to stop the tide from turning.

Was reminded of this on another post, but I have questions as to what to do about it:

The two most important rules for surviving an affair are to 1) never see or talk to the lover again (and create extraordinary conditions to guarantee that outcome), and 2) follow a plan for marital recovery that leads to a mutual feeling of romantic love (with emphasis on the Policy of Undivided Attention, the Policy of Radical Honesty, and the Policy of Joint Agreement as outlined in "Fall in Love, Stay in Love."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


His ending statement was:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If either you or your husband fail to follow these rules, you are not likely to recover from this affair.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is why I keep saying to...FOLLOW THESE RULES EXPLICITLY.


*********************************
My questions is....HOW can you possible do these things, when the WS wont comply? A BS cannot do this on ones own.

How can I even get him to understand these concepts, when he wont acknowledge a problem in the first place?

He would never read the book, so unless I TELL him about these, he wont know and therefore wont do them.

Even still, he probably would agree, but then turn around and refuse to comply.

Makes me wonder if my M is a lost cause already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

hbs, please read the link in my sig line about the MB thread on dealing with a passive/aggressive spouse. If you're short on time, you can start on page 53 and read the rest as you can.

His P/A stuff has got to be dealt with before the MB principles can work. Otherwise, it's like trying to use MB on an alcoholic. It won't work and you will drive yourself crazy trying to figure out why when it works for so many others.

BTW: Not to make you feel any worse, but I think he got snarly about the SF question because he's getting that need filled elsewhere right now and wants to just put you on the shelf when it comes to that. That's why he didn't want to answer.

Please start reading that other thread. There is a lot of good information and practical solutions there. Let us know how it's going.
Mulan

Thanks Mulan.

I did start reading that thread, but yes, it is long and I only got to page 7 or so.
I'll start at pg 53 now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And not to worry, I'm already well aware that the SF is probably being fulfilled elsewhere. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Dear Hurt,

Sorry to say, but your WS shows all the signs of still being in the A. I can say this with unfortunately the experience of having a WH try to appear as a FWH, but the words and the actions don't match. I see that your WH still works for the same company, can he change companies, what about moving? As the article says, extraordinary messures. But what to do when your WH won't participate?
I guess still consider that the A is still on and try to Plan A him. This also means you should expose to as many people as possible, at his work and hers. There are others here that can advise about these things, I came here after the A was broken up again, so I didn't do exactly the Plan A, but as you point out, some of it is instinctive.

Good luck and hang in there, take care of yourself and your children. Why don't you have WH take care of your daughter and give you some TLC time for a massage/manicure, or just walk around a mall?

Have you exposed... to his co-workers that he's cheating on his pregnant wife?

Have you exposed... to OW significant others, including parents, husband (if she has one), etc.?

Have you done a sufficiently excellent Plan A - where you work ALL of the emotional needs, not just the ones he supposedly answered affirmative to? Just like when you first met and fell in love?

Passive aggressive spouses respond very well to direct non-conflict-avoiding Plan A followed by a very dark Plan B. Many wayward spouses would fit the DSM IV description of passive aggressive disorder. It's part of the nature of affairs, i.e. cake-eating.

If you can hold it together for two weeks, being your best self- getting up, taking care of yourself and your environment, looking beautiful, radiant, cooking good food, keeping a clean house (bring in someone from your church while he's at work if you need help to do this since you're expecting), get a sweet, but not overly mushy card, take a favorite treat to work, etc. - for two weeks...

Then, Plan B - tell him you KNOW he's been cheating the whole time; you don't want to argue about it because it hurts too much to be lied to further; here's your plan b letter, he can read it at his convenience, but here's his bag and he needs to go now, if he hopes to restore your marriage, your love and a two parent family for his children. Have a minister and friends there to back you up so that he doesn't get abusive or try to bully you.

Hbs,

You can click on the link in my sig line and read about the stages of grieving and reverse babble. You will see what you may be going through. Once you recognize these stages, you can prepare for them and work through them.

As for reverse babble. Put in 'reverse babble' on search link and go back a few years. There's lots of examples out there. If you want me to tackle a few you have heard, post them on a thread and I will give it a shot. Others here are good at it and can help.

Recovery comes in 2 stages: Your personal recovery and Marital recovery.

Your personal recovery is within your control. The M one requires the cooperation of both with more work coming from the Xws than the BS.

As for his tantrums....that's a given. He's an Xws who is now having to face his issues and he doesn't like it. Anger management courses empahsizes the fact that he isn't in control. Don't absorb his anger or guilt. Hear it and give it back to him. That's what reverse babble does.

Staying in plan A too long is detrimental. How long should one be in plan A? As long as you need to make your personal improvements. At that time, if he is still a WS, the move to plan B. If he isn't, then implementing recovery is possible. Going to plan B requires your mind and heart be in sync. The hard piece is that you can't force your mind and heart t/b in sync, that takes time. Which requires you pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.

Go read Love must be tough by Dr Dobson. It will give you some pointers of what plan B ought t/b like.

take care,
L.

Kayla-
Thank you for your response. I have to admit that what you wrote both made me feel good, and was hard to read at the same time.
First, I do appreciate your concern and taking the time to reply with some great advice.
Unfortunately, I am in no way, shape or form, even ready to consider Plan B. As Orchid mentioned, getting my head and heart the same page, is VERY difficult right now.

That may change as time goes on, however right now, I just feel like I only have *suspicions* of the continued A, but unlike the 1st d-day, I cant confirm 100%.
Each time I am *certain* I will catch WS w/OW, I am wrong.
Perhaps, I am being stupid? {{shrugs}} I dunno.

I have exposed the A to his family, my family, some of his friends, and OW knows I know about her.
Other than that, no. I did not expose further, and have not since Aug.
OW is not married, and I have tried to find out who her parents are, however to no avail.

Should I continue to expose to more co-workers, boss, even though I'm not exactly positive the A continues. ??
Personally, I feel that I need more concrete evidence, whether by more phone records, or proof of HIM replying to/calling her, or more spying before further exposure.

Exposing, and then being wrong, would IMO, further drive WS from me, emotionally and physically.

Our home computer went on the fritz, so at present time, we dont have one.
However, I'm in the process of getting it repaired so that I can use a key logger to see if they communicate via email.
At this time, the ONLY way they comminucate, from my view, is when at work...via his work email or work phone.

Re: Plan A.
I am positive that I did an EXCELLENT Plan A, immediately after I found out, and continued w/that thru the end of Sept, so a total of about 2 months.
Things were great in Aug/Sept, and even thru the 1st half of Oct. WS was responding well to the plan, and was focusing back in on our M.
What changed that?

My personal belief, (trying not to be naive here) is that OW contacted him and he went back into withdrawl.
I know for a fact, via cell records, that she contacted him on Aug 24th using another person's phone.
No record of Sept contact, but then she texted him again on Oct 2nd, and Oct 4th from her NEW cell #.
During that time, I did NOT let on that I had suspicions that she had a new #.
Then no phone record again until Oct 26 (from HER #), then another text on the 28th(using friends' #)

So, IF she didnt think I knew about her new #, why wouldnt she continue to call, and/or then call from a friend's # between those times?

However, as you can see, there has been more frequent contact from her, and these dates coincide with the time when WS stopped being intimate w/me. Our last SF was 12SEP. And he began to withdraw from me emotionally around the 1st week of OCT...when I first saw her texts from a new #. Again there have only been 2 texts this month.

So, is a few phone records, and no SF between us, enough proof that the A continues?
And is this sufficient enough for me to start in on a Plan B?

As I said before, and perhaps this is not part of the MB principles, but (pre- MB, pre A knowledge) we already went thru a 5 month separation, one in which I was VERY NICE (plan A'ish--and the timne when he met and started A w/ OW) and followed that by a VERY DARK time (Plan B'ish) to which he did respond and 3 weeks later, returned home.

He DID return to the M, completely freely and on his own.

I NEVER, EVER asked him to return. Conversly, it was HE who practically begged me to come home. Yes, he was still in the midst/end of his A, however HE took the leap to ask me to come back.
It took me a month to agree, and only when I did, did the info of his A come to light. (1 week later).
At the time, he said he was RELIEVED for me to find out. That the guilt was killing him.

So, because of this, I am just not prepared to go into another Dark Plan B.
I *do* know Plan B works, especially for a P/A man. However, I cant keep doing Plan A, Plan B, Plan A, Plan B for the rest of my life. Its got to end somewhere.

I feel like this is it. The end of our ropes. Figure it out, or get out. No more game playing, no more "Plan B'ing".

Go ahead....sting me with your comments. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just feel like we need to either figure it out NOW....or move on.


AND the fact that I have recently discovered his Passive Agressive personality, I finally, for the 1st time in our 11 year relationship, feel like I have some tools to cope and can only NOW begin to figure him out.
And therefore, finally work and make strides at improving our M.
Pre P/A knowledge, I tried everything and if not for finding out about this, I probably right now would be feeling something completely different.

But, its like we're playing by a completely different set of rules than most, and I finally found the "how to play manual".


--
update:
So, as I explained in my previous post, he was very upset with me over the weekend. Sunday barely spoke to me, until the evening.
Monday, I decided to return to a Plan A stance. I texted him in the morning, asking for a phone number and upon receipt I replied back with a "thank you honey. Have a great day. I'll see you tonight".

He only replied with "ok".

However, that night, with so many things on my brain, I left my cell phone at the office by accident. I called him from a friend's number and explained.
Upon picking up my D from daycare, I drove back out to his office to see WHAT he would do after work.
I got there around 8p, just about the time they started closing up shop, which they normally do around 9p.
He left around 815p, but unfortunately, he took off before I could see which way he went.
I drove by the bar. He wasnt there.

I completely figured he went to OW's house, so I drove out there. Not near by, and a good 45 mins from our's. So, it was something that I did not want to do, but felt I had no choice.
Thankfully, he wasnt there either.

So, I just drove home and got there around 930p. He was there, had been there and was eating dinner.
As soon as I got in, he started in w/20 questions about my whereabouts.
I told him I was w/my dad and then we went to the mall.

That night, when we went to bed, he was a bit more affectionate and we chatted about movies and perhaps going to see something this weekend. For the past month, he has BARELY touched me, but Monday night, he *allowed* his foot to touch mine and even though his back was turned to me, he inched closer and closer to me until his behind was touching me.
I know this sounds insignificant, but somehow, to me it isnt.

Yesterday, Halloween, I got D dressed up and told WS I was taking her to the festivities at a mall near his office. What I didnt tell him, was that I was going to stop by his job.
It was about 5pm and thankfully he was there.

We went in for a minute and stayed in the reception room. I sorta expected him to take us back and to show D off to his his office, however that wasnt the case.
A few of his friends came out into the lobby and he introduced me to 2 of them.
A 3rd friend, who I've met before, was also there and I have a sneaking suspicion he was "hiding" in the back as he either "KNOWS" OW, or knows all about the A and didnt really want to talk to me or say anything to me.

WS and his coworker (who I was introduced to) were apparently on the way to the bank, so we left pretty quickly.
At first I was bothered that we were *shuffled* out so fast, but then I realized that WS did have his jacket on, and his coworker had keys in his hand and when got in.
In fact, I could see the guy standing in the lobby thru the window when we got out of the car...presumably waiting for my H to come out so they could go.
So, I doubt the "bank" thing was made up. Just bad timing on my part I feel.
My negative side was at first thinking that he just wanted me out of there and WHY didnt he want to introduce me to his office mates? I PURPOSLY got all dolled up and looking good. Thankfully, I was having a GREAT hair day. LOL
Anyhow. The trip to the office was not what I had hoped, but at least I did it. WS was not upset, and I sort of half wondered if he was going to be.

After that, D and I went to the mall, and WS said he was probably going to leave early as the phones were not to busy due to Halloween.
We got home around 730p, and WS came home around 8p.

When he got home he was very nice, loving, talkative, and even gave me a great kiss and hug and asked if I wanted him to make dinner.

Why am I tell you all this? I dunno really.

I guess I want to know if this new attitude toward me, is just a PLOY of his to keep me off kilter, or if its in response to my recent resumed A accusations.
Or, if due to passively agressively gettng me back over the weekend for accusing/following him, he is now *over the anger* and able to be kind to me again. ?

I often wonder, if I am just so used to accepting his crumbs that when he does give me a crumb, I find any way to satisfy myself with them...even though I know I'm still starving for more.

I guess too, I just realize that I'm so, so so, so tired of being angry and upset all the time. I dont LIKE myself this way. This is not who I am.....and I'm tired of this person.

And I'm really tired of my militant snooping. I'm tired of all of it. My energy is drained.

I guess I'm just ready for some upfront confrontation and information.

I hope to get WS to agree to MC soon.

I'm going to ask him dinner this weekend, and this is when I plan to discuss this.

During our Pre-M counseling session, we learned the best place to have a "discussion" is NOT at home.
Its outside, or somewhere where we both are on neutral territory.

Mulan,
I am on pg 57 now, and I've had to pick up my jaw off the floor about 80 times since page 53.

YOU really know your stuff. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I can see, just in the past few pages, that *I* have been the difference lately.
*MY* attitude has changed, in reaction to his withdrawl in the past month or so.

This summer, before and after he moved back home I was confident. Finally to the point, where I was accepting that we just might not be together again. EVER.
I found myself also, starting to look good again, FOR MYSELF. Started noticing OM checking me out...and even more so...I also found myself WANTING to put myself out there.

At one point over the summer, I *knew* he was probably seeing someone..his actions/words/attitude was so weird...that I knew something was up. I never imagined the DEGREE of this but, thats beside point.
I too started to "feel good" again when a co-worker of mine told another co-worker that he "couldnt believe that my H would let someone like me go". That "if HE could, he would ask me out in a heartbeat".
Luckily for me, I am a very strong woman, and would NEVER do anything w/ an man unless and until I'm D'd from my own.
Even as needy as I was at that time...cuz BOY was I NEEDY.
So, this has been one way that I have been able to accept WS's A.
Not that I am okay with it by ANY means..but I can really understand how and WHY it happened. What I cant get over is the degree of the R and how much time/SF they had and the LIES that WS told. I told him and really do feel this way...that I *forgive him* for it...can *understand it* but I cannot and wont let it continue. If he's with me...then he's with me.
If he doesnt want to be...then leave. Plain and simple.
He has always replied with "I am where I really want to be".

I guess what I'm saying is that this summer, and for the 1st 2 months of our reconciliation, I was stronger.


Over our seperation, I guess I feel that I had *already lost him*, so to speak, and was doing FINE on my own.

I didnt miss him, okay. Yes, of course I did. But I was getting to a point that I think I was just missing being LOVED and shown AFFECTION.
Of course, I wanted my H to give that to me..but the reality was starting to sink in, that I just may not get that back again.

So, when we DID have contact over the summer, I was NOT the same person that I seem to be now.

I WAS NOT needy, desperate, unsure of myself, insecure etc.
Now, I am feeling ALL those things creep back up on me, and I can see how his respect for me is dwindling.

I need to buck up and get my ego and self respect back.
I swear I still have it most days. But, once a week or so, I feel them creeping on. I've got to stop them from occuring.

Its all so clear now.

When he goes out after work, he DOESNT CALL to tell me "I'm out, I'll be back at xyz time". He just doesnt call....
Because he KNOWS that it would PLEASE ME if he did.

I used to think that he didnt want to *hear me get upset* like a kid who doesnt want to call his parents when he'll be past curfew...an "I'll just deal with it once, when I get home" atttitude.

But now I see that its his REFUSAL to be controlled which is the reason.

He knows I want/expect him to call...therefore, he doesnt call b/c then I'll get my way and he will feel as if he GAVE IN to my expecation or request.

BINGO.

The thing I'm having a hard time with, some times when I've given him the room to do as he does, ie: not call...is when I have learned that he was w/ OW.

The Friday of the 1st week he came back home, he said he was out w/friends from work. He called me at 6pm, 9pm and then 10pm, to tell me "we are moving onto the next spot"...I wont be home late though. I love you".

And...dun dun dun dun....He came home at 5am.


Around 2am, I had my suspicions (not of an A, but so angry that he was not home) and I was SO MAD that the FIRST WEEK he is back, he is pulling this crap on me??? Already???
Wow. Some nerve.

But, still I refused to call him that night. Didnt want him to "see me sweat" or to come across as needy or clingy.
Afterall, he had JUST returned home and I wasnt about to send him packing already. I let it go.

The next day, I had to work, and he stayed home w/our D. I called and asked if we could go out for dinner, rather than cook at home.
We went to the beach with our D and ate fish and chips while watching the sun set. Sounds cheesy, but it was straight out of a book. It was everything I have wanted in our M for a LONG time. Still, I felt WS was distant, pre-occupied, but couldnt put my finger on it. Thought perhaps it was due to just being back in my company after so many months.
That night we stayed up until 2am talking and drinking chablis and laughing until our sides hurt. We talked about things we had not talked about and basically TALKED, when we had not done so, since WAY before our D was born.

WS even said "you know that these classes I'm going to have really helped. I am no longer the person I was a few months ago. I am different.
You know that last year, we would not have been able to sit here, and talk like this...I have changed".
We both slept on the floor in our family room, wrapped in eachothers arms.

Things seemed SO GOOD.


And the next week is when I learned of the OW. And then SHE told me "he was at my house on Friday night...said he had to be at the house early..so left around 4AM".

What a fool I felt like.

My point in telling you this?? Well, its that I WAS strong, I WAS confident, I DID demand something...and you know what...WS delivered.

So, I guess now I just need to put my foot down and let him know that he cant and wont walk all over me. Not now. Not ever.

Oh, and THE reason WS gave me for "ending the A" was that OW was *starting to have feelings".

My guess is that she was wanting MORE from him. Like a committment perhaps?
And hearing that..."control, control, control"...he had to get out ASAP.

FWIW, I believe he never really explained to OW WHY he was ending his A. Classic P/A man...couldnt tell the truth...just wanted it to all go away.
When I talked to her...she said "I feel so much better now...at least I know why he started acting funny".

Hmm...its all coming full circle to me know.

I'll keep reading so I can get help on how to make that happen.

Thanks again Mulan....I feel like I've been given the key to unlocking my future...one way or another.

Thanks - but I began learning about this just recently and I am so grateful to StillHereMakingIt, Silverpool, TruBluz and several others who helped me enormously.


You've got it. Exactly. I operated for *years* from the idea that my husband did not want to hurt me and that I must not be making myself clear about how his actions were affecting me. Once I got it through my head that oh yes he WOULD hurt me if it meant getting his own way without consequence and without being "controlled", things got much easier and actually much less stressful for me. *Then* I felt that I could cope with the real problem.


The only thing I know for this is direct confrontation. Tell him you know he is lying and you know he was with OW. If he asks how you know, just tell him you know. Then - most important - just turn around and WALK AWAY. Don't stand there and wait for him to agree with you, or make amends, or explain, or apologize, or anything else. Just leave him there alone holding the P/A bag while you go to the mall or for a walk or whatever.


Yup - telling whatever you want to hear so he can keep you right where he wants you (out of the way and quiet.) And it worked, too, didn't it?


I felt exactly the same way. Just hang in there. It will take a while, but you've really got nothing to lose and everything to gain here.
Mulan

Yep. Worked like a charm. Against my own better judgement...I purchased hook, line and sinker.
Can I return it as "buyers remorse?" LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

quote-
The only thing I know for this is direct confrontation. Tell him you know he is lying and you know he was with OW. If he asks how you know, just tell him you know. Then - most important - just turn around and WALK AWAY. Don't stand there and wait for him to agree with you, or make amends, or explain, or apologize, or anything else. Just leave him there alone holding the P/A bag while you go to the mall or for a walk or whatever.


YES! This is EXACTLY what I need to do. My issue, which I understand I need to get over, is that I have a hard time being okay with "MY KNOWLEDGE being sufficient".
I always look for confirmation...or for him (or anyone) to validate my feelings...and/ or ADMIT.
But you are right...I just have to KNOW and be okay with MY knowledge. He wont ever admit.

My need for validation comes from my childhood. My mother is a wonderful woman, but a perfectionist, well, for her KIDS. Nothing was ever good enough. I was ALWAYS looking for her approval. Day of my college graduation, I turned to my mom and gave her my diploma. Said here..."its finally yours".
Took me 2 years of therapy to graps that I was a acting like a 16yr old kid, looking for approval. ANY approval.

Its not a wonder I chose the mate that I did.
He is/was everything my mother didnt want. LOL

I still use my lessons from therapy on my R w/my mom and our R has improved 120%.
I've always searched for the same w/ my H.
Finally, I feel like I've got a shot.

And yes, yes, yes...
I too, thought his behaviour stemmed from him not wanting to hurt me...but yep. He would walk on coals, hit me w/whatever he could, if it meant he could get his way or not be controlled.

This is quite a tough pill to swallow.

Back to more reading.
And no, I'm not getting a LICKs worth of work done today. haha

So, its been about a week, since I've been here. I think I just needed to get a break from all this and wrap my head around the truth about our home life. Sometimes I wonder if my anxiety is perpetuated by visiting these boards...and getting myself all worked up over nothing. Or perhaps, its in dealing with the reality/truth of my M, that is so perplexing. Ah, its just a lot to deal with.

Last week was a good one for us. WS was home every night after work, -by 8p at the latest. (he works until 9p, but they have been stopping early lately)

I'm pretty sure his being home was not in anyway, a reflection of any renewed feelings towards me...or a change in him.
Rather, I feel, that it was only the week before payday, and therefore he just didnt have the $ to be out at the bar every night. I'm pretty sure this is the truth, which makes me very sad. But, at least he was home, having dinner with us, playing and spending time with the family.

Thursday night he surprised me and asked if I wanted to carpool to work w/him on Friday. I was floored. I was SO tempted to ask him myself before that, but didnt, b/c well, I didnt want to be rejected. Didnt want to put any hope or expectation on an unrealistic situation. (part of dealing with a P/A man).

The drive in was fine. We just listened to the radio...oh and I shared with him the happenings from Dr Phil show from the day before. About an AWFUL WS who had multiple A's and how his wife totally accepted it..and this guy had no remorse for his actions.

My H was semi receptive to the story. He listened quietly but didnt say much which was fine w/me. I just wanted him to see the results of a WS from another persons perspective. Not sure it had any impact on him however.

On the way home, we did talk about our R in more detail. I've been trying hard NOT to bring up any hot topics (our M, for example) but somehow that came up.

WS shared w/me that its only been in the past month, that he has felt "comfortable" being himself again.

I tried like heck to get more info out of him, but he started clamming up and making references to things I didnt understand. He started talking about how we are so different, opposite personalities and how he finally knows how to not *Let me get to him*. How is Anger Mgt classes are really helping him cope and not let others make him react.

At this point, I felt comfortable enough myself to share with him that I've been doing some research myself, to not only improve our M, but also ME...and came across the P/A H, Angry Wife syndrome...also called the Boomerang Relationship.

He was open to listening and I shared some specifc examples of exactly HOW we fit that mold.

Specifically, I pointed to THE HOTTEST topic right now for ME...the lack of SF between us.
He started to get uncomfortable immediately and tried to change the subject numerous times. He even turned the radio up to which I turned it back down and shone the spotlight on him big time.

I shared that this is an EXACT example of his skirting the issue and how rather than HELP our M, it only hurts us because I am left feeling bad for asking, and he is left not sharing his thoughts with me..and this is not the recipe for a happy M.

He finally said, although I belive it to be a lie...that the reason for his lack of SF is that (and I quote) "Whenver I have SF w/you..you end up pregnant".

I just laughed because, okay..so yeah...I am PG..but its not like I can get PG AGAIN right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I called him on it and all he could do was shrug and clam up.

Rather than get upset, I counteracted with a calm voice and asked him if he felt that I *trapped* him into getting pregnant this time.

He said yes.

I was crushed.

Yes, sure, I wanted another baby, but no, I did not intentionally get PG.

I also reminded him that it was HE who begged me to have another baby this summer..(after our 1st reunited SF) and when I told him that I was not on any BC, he laughed and said GOOD and disregarded my plea to not try to get me pg.
Well, I didnt get pg that time..but I did a month later...and he knew FULL WELL that I was still not on any BC.

So, okay. Irresponsible? Yes, I can admit that. Did I want another baby? Yes, I did.
Did I TRAP him, intentionally trying to get pg to "trap" or "keep him", or "make him stay"..no, absolutely not.

But, that is HIS perception.

Finally I said that I was sorry that he felt that way but I could very easily say that HE is the one who trapped me as he KNEW I was not protected.
He said yes, that was true also.

And then again, I calmly reminded him that he does NOT have to be here if he doesnt want to.

I (using Dr Phil's words) can try to build a HUGE fence, to keep him from straying or leaving, but if he wants out, or to continue the A, then NO fence I build will ever keep him from that.

I reminded him again that its HIS Choice.

And using the tools I've leaned recently, I reminded him that I am NOT trying to control him, keep him, hurt him or any other negative thing.

I am trying to love him and to make our family work.

I think I got my point across.

WS did say some things, that honestly, hurt my feelings, a lot.
Feeling that I *trapped* him was a huge blow to me...but I sorta knew that all along.

Oh and I also commented on his behavior last week of not saying he was angry w/me but then the next day giving me the silent treatment the next day.

He seemed SHOCKED that I picked up on that.
He then went on to say that Yes, he was angry but part of him was HAPPY that I drove by the bar and saw that (and I quote) "he was not with any females". "YES"...he said ..."I WIN, I WIN" he said is what he thought about that.

I told him that I was "glad he won" and that I would be MORE THAN HAPPY TO LOSE THAT ONE EVERYTIME" In fact, I never want to WIN again. Its not about who wins or loses, because in the end...its about US winning together that is the main point".

He sat back and didnt say anything but "wow"...which is exactly what I was thinking.

What a departure....what a difference in our interations..its literally amazing.


After that talk, I just had to laugh...and told him to get ready b/c things are changing from MY end. No more of me sulking, no more of me getting angry...but he'd better be prepared for me to start being brutally honest and calling him out on his unhealthy behaviour/actions.


I am really hoping we can truly start to turn things around.
Again, I cant emphasize enough how finding out my WS is Passive-Agressive, has changed EVERYTHING.


--edited to add--

I during the drive home, I also brought up the "A"...and he denied, denied, denied.
Even though, in the past, he has admitted, well, sorta....he STILL wants me to believe that NOTHING HAPPENED with OW.

It made me very sad to know that even after all this time...he still wont come clean. Still wont admit. Still refuses to accept responsibility. STILL wants me to believe "it was nothing".

I read somewhere, that they will lie about the A for 2 reasons:

1. They honestly believe their own lie

2. They KNOW the Act of an A is wrong, thefore actually admitting to having one, is thereby admitting that what HE DID was wrong...and they just wont do that.
Admitting to being wrong, to a P/A person, is giving up too much control.

My personal as to why WS wont admit to me...is reason #2.

Hi, hbs - glad things seem a little better for you.


Did you see my post on "frognomore"'s thread today? It's all about "winning" from the P/A point of view.

And not to make anything worse, but - when I read your post today about how he still refuses to have SF with you and seems very very uncomfortable if you even mention it, my first thought was - has he been checked for STDs? Do you know for a fact that he has not contract one? It seems to me that that might be the one reason for a man to refuse SF with a willing partner (especially one he's married to.)

Just a thought - please keep hanging in there.
Mulan

Thanks Mulan.

I have not read your post yet, but I will get over there asap.

And yes, that thought crossed my mind this weekend. Its getting almost ridiculous now...esp since he DECLARES so loudly that he is not having SF w/anyone else.

I've decided to tell him that the only way I'll engage in SF (If and when he is ready for that), is IF and only IF he agrees to get checked FIRST.

Mulan
Yep. ITA w/FNM...I am mere white belt..you must be black belt in dealing w a P/A Spouse.

Funny how "winning" came up in my M this weekend too.

My WS actually used the words I WIN, I WIN and smiled and pumped his fists like a child who just won a baseball game.
It was so weird, childish, laughable....but I did recognize it as a need of his to be right, at all costs, which is exactly why I told him I'd be happy to lose that one anytime. A.N.Y.TIME.

He had NOTHING to say to that. He sat stunned and quiet. I dont think he quite knows what to make of my new reactions.
I am no longer "predictable".

And yep, I have to agree...their desire to be right, or to WIN, comes at any expense. Any. Even those they love.

FWIW, I too, USED to need to be in control, and win at any expense...and that created a huge power struggle in our R.
Before we got married, I was so afraid to be "hurt" by him, that my defenses were up and I was going to beat him to the punch, if it came to it. Ironically, HE was the one trying to break my walls down. I specifically remember him telling me that unless I "let him in", we would never be a close couple. Its so strange to see how much the tables have turned.

I'm no longer like this, and can finally recognize the difference. Almost like a fog...I'm coming out of it now too.

I'm anxious to see how much further the dynamics change when WS realizes I no longer need to WIN and yet will no longer participate in his game. It just might take all the fun out of his little competition.

We shall see...

My weekly update.

Things continue to look good. No further calls/texts from OW since 24OCT.

Another 2wks of WS coming home early, on time every night. Last weekend he was home with us everyday and this week has started to come back around to me physically and emotionally.
WS has started to touch me again, albeit lightly, but it is now there where it wasnt much over the past month. Last night he came home from work, sat on the couch, close to me and put his arm around me.
I honestly feel, like he is trying. Especially after his "just started to feel comfortable" comment of last week.

Still no SF, but I've dropped that for now. I'm tired of hoping, asking, wondering why not...so I am letting it go. I do have plans to bring it up soon, and set my boundaries.
I just dont want to live in a sexless marriage again/anymore.
We've been thru this previously (before/after DD was born) and I dont want to continue it.
I know how imporant SF is to our M, as when we do engage intimately, it does strengthen our bond immensly, even though the recent (or not so recent but the MOST recent) SF was a bit awkward (feelings wise) to say the least.

So, my question is..and I hope perhaps both WS's and BS's can give me some insight:

How did you carry on with the A, right under the nose of your BS?

As I mentioned before, WS and I were separated during the jist of his A, and as far as I can tell, there was only one night back in Aug where I know for sure he was w/ OW under my nose. Before we reunited however, I could sense a change in him and he was on his phone ALL THE TIME...with her I came to find out much later on.
During our separation, I just KNEW something was going on. WS acted so strange. Would hardly LOOK at me, kept his head down and kept minimal contact w/me to say the least. I even suspected his seeing another woman and asked him to which he replied with SHOCK.almost an "how dare you incinuate" attitude. Hmfp. What a con that turned out to be.

So I guess, looking back, I knew. Yes, of course I knew, HAD to expect something like this. We were apart and why wouldn't he go out and meet someone new? I was getting needy, wanting to do the same...why wouldnt he?

But, I have no experience of being IN an active Marriage and being cheated on. Okay, yeah we were married, but not "together" while he carried on w/OW. So I want to know...what are the signsof an active A? What could I be missing? If he is home w/his family almost all the time, WHEN is he spending time w/ the OP?


Since D-day, I have ZERO proof of the A continuing besides a few texts and some strange behaviour from WS.
On top of that, all his excuses or whereabouts "checked out" each time by my snooping, or doing drive bys.

Did you meet during the daytime to engage in your A? Did you get together at lunchtime, before work etc to meet? Did you take OP out w/friends, even though they KNEW you were still with your BS. How brazen does one get during an A?

I'm just hoping people came give me some examples so I can either cross them off the list, or check into it. I guess I just have no proof..but want to ensure I'm not missing something thats right under my nose.

I'm driving myself crazy w/snooping and finding nothing. '

I have even gotten to the point where I wish I could block the phone bill from my browser. Each new number makes me feel sick, faint, and I have to call to find out who it is.

I just dont want to look anymore..but it feels like it calls my name to "check check check everyday".

Just seems to me that a lot of these A's continue even after 1st D-day, and I'm wondering how they were carried out when the BS thought they were over and in Recovery.

Thx for your help.

Weekly update. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Sometimes I think this place is just my own personal journal. :0)

So, yes, another week passed and (F)WS home on time (early even) every night, no LB's, no proof of contact w/OP and more affection-hugs, kisses, calls- on a daily basis.

As I noted above, perhaps the A could be continuing behind my back, but I have no proof. I guess they could take it to a lunchtime A, but I dunno. {shrug}

Things have been going well for us, both. WS seems to be opening up even more to me, sharing his thoughts, albeit not R talk, but at least sharing work stories, telling me about his friends, etc, which is I belive, a start.

Still, no SF which is bugging me like crazy, but I've given up asking and just go with the flow. Our DD has been having a hard time sleeping in her bed at night, so has been in our room most nights...so its not like we've had a moment of privacy in the past few weeks. However, I AM going to bring this up soon...I'm just picking my time.

I still haven't pressed R issues much, but I AM watching like a hawk for any strange or different behavior from him.
So far, so good, meaning nothing to report.

I've continued to check the cell phone online, but its starting to drive me crazy. So, I have vowed to start cutting back, to once a week at most, and then hopefully, as WS continues transparency, coming home early, etc, I can cut it back further.

My only current anxiety comes from our upcoming trip. We have a family trip planned, one in which WS is coming for only a long weekend (due to work) and DD and I are staying w/my sister, for 4 extra days.

I'm out of my head w/stress that he will contact OW during this time. He swears he will not change any of his behaviors, and that he just be going to work and coming home as usual, but as I am not going to be there...I cant confirm. Plus, its scary giving him this "freedom". I am worried that "out of sight, out of mind" could occur.

But, I am also determined not to let it ruin my vacation. I already gave up one trip just after D-day-which I DO NOT regret at all-- but I cant live my life on "what ifs". I feel that he has to continue to earn trust, and if I do find out that he saw OW, or doesnt stay at our house overnight, then he'll prove himself as untrustworthy and will make me think twice about the R of our M.

I guess the thing that I have learned in the last month, is that I am strong, and that I do deserve more than I was getting from WS.
Yes, I am worried that the A could resume, but I am no longer AFRAID of it. I know, that should I need to end the M, that I did EVERYTHING I could do, loved unconditionally, studied, read, acted and LOVED him and that I deserve it back.
I did fine on my own this summer, and I'm going to be fine if alone later on.
I hope that our M continues to be strengthend, but I know that I wont accept the continued A and have told WS this, so should he decide to stray again, he wont be surprised at the result.

I believe, as others post here on this site, that WS need to be presented with the TRUTH and that truth is that THEY can be left, that the M is not a guarantee.
Its not what I want, but I am willing to give myself the gift of respect...and WS needs to respect me too.

Hi, hbs - sorry I did not see your update last week.

You do sound stronger. That's good. As far as how WS conduct affairs while still living at home? Well, the workplace presents primo opportunities. Most of them, especially large corporate workplaces, are locked up tighter than Fort Knox. The BS cannot walk in, cannot see email, cannot listen to voice mail, cannot see the company newsletter (now strictly on-line on a company intranet) - cannot see anything. It's the ideal setup.

Just add in plenty of overnight business travel with fun and attractive opposite-sex coworkers and you could not design a better setup to have an affair. The company even pays for your phone, your email, your dinner, your entertainment and your hotel.

It's perfect.
Mulan

In addition to him respecting you, the Xws needs to reassure you and help you get closure.

Do you and your H have a recovery plan? Please read SAA and call Steve or your MC for a solid recovery plan.

That recovery plan will place most of the recovery work on the WS' shoulders.

take care,
L.

Thank you Mulan and Orchid.

Yes, we are working on a recovery plan together. So far, so good although we have a long road ahead of us.
Things ARE looking up and I'm thankful and more appreciative of his respect for me everyday.
I can honestly say things are getting better, albeit slowly, but they are getting better again.

As for MC or calling the Harley's, we are *almost* there. I say almost, b/c we are still learning how to relate to one another and I'm still learning how to handle my passive agressive husband. THEN, we'll look at MC/calling etc.

I wanted to write about something that I learned/figured out this weekend about my WS's behavior since D-day.


Have you seen the show called "cheaters"?
Well, before all this A stuff, we used to watch it as a couple and WS was VERY open w/his feelings that cheaters are wrong! Oh how very ironic, eh?
Its sorta like watching Jerry Springer..where you watch in awe and thank gawd that you are not like that. LOL
And now, here we are, just like that. Sad, sad, sad.


Well, during this episode of "Cheaters", this lady found out her BF was seeing another woman.
They confronted WBF/OW w/cameras rolling and yep, the WBF denied, denied, denied, right in front of the OW even. Caught red handed, yet still denying.

Then the BGF started yelling and screaming at OW who very calmly said "she had no idea. Didnt know he had a GF etc. Talk to him, not her, etc".

BGF contiued to call OW names, yell at her, try to attack her, basically taking her agression out on OW...the wrong person, IMO.

Well, as we watched, I could sympathize w/ the BGF's anger and hurt and rage towards OW, yet I didnt say anything outloud.

My WS DID say: "OW has the right attitude. Its not her fault. BGF is blaming the wrong person".

And then it hit me....like a ton of bricks.

Yes, I HAVE blamed my WS's OW for getting involved w/a married man. While THEY justified it b/c WS and I were separated at the time, they both knew, and SHE knew, he was not yet D'd. He was STILL MARRIED when they hooked up.
So, to an extent, no, I dont feel bad for OW at all.

But, I know that my WS does.

Watching him react to this show, having compasion for the OW on this show, told me that he DOES feel guilt, some type of remorse in all this..and that he probably feels just as guilty for hurting OW as he does for hurting me.

I wrestled with it all night long. It bothered the heck out of me.
But, then I started to feel badly for OW also. I wont EVER like her, and I wont EVER say her name outloud, but I almost feel badly for her.
I even found myself thinking about *her feelings* when I heard this song on the radio talking about how "they'll never be together" etc.
I found myself feeling sorry for OW, as its AWFUL to get your heart ripped out, even IF it was during an A.
OW isnt married, she has 3 kids. I'm sure she was HOPING that MY H, would be "the one".

OW told me, when I called her on D-day, "I'm in love w/him". UGH.
I hear her say those words everyday. Its like a tape that runs through my mind constantly.
It makes me SICK, but also makes me sad.

Sad, that not only I got hurt, not only my WS got hurt, but another woman w/kids got hurt in this whole mess as well.
She even played the "my kids ask when XX is coming over again. What am I supposed to tell them?" card.

Sad card to play, and I wish I would have replied w/something about MY KID..WS's own child. I wanted to tell her WHO CARES about YOUR kids....thats YOUR problem that they got hurt in all this....but I didnt. I honestly dont remember what I even said.

Anyways. I guess I just wanted to get this out, b/c well, I wonder if this is normal for the BS to feel empathy towards the OW?
I dont hurt for her or anything, but I do feel sorry for her.

I feel sorry that she made some really bad mistakes, like getting involved w/ a married man, for one, and is now, again, alone and he is back home w/me.
Must feel like crap for her.

Is this weird that I feel this way? I mean, I HATE her, yes, I do. And I DO fantasize about calling her up and telling her all the things I forgot or didnt think about telling her the day that we spoke.
I hate her for continuing to call my H after D-day and for TRYING to woo him back to her a few times.
But, I feel sad for her...perhaps b/c it could have very easily been me, hearing sad songs, and wondering why he left me for her.

Oh, but really the main reason I posted this today, is b/c I read another post where the BS is po'd, hurt, and her DH wants her to "get over it".

Yeah, been there. My WS did the same and wanted to/would really like to shove it all under the rug, or ignore the huge elephant in the room.

But, we can't. I can't. I keep tripping on the rug, we're running out of room in our living room w/the elephant there.

And now I realize WHY he wants to this to all just go away.

Because HE feels bad. Hearing him talk about the OW from the tv show, reaffirmed that he even feels badly for hurting OW too.

My WS, if he is truly in NC, and we are truly in recovery, like I think we are, is dealing with hurt, pain and embarrasment and guilt all his own....independant of mine.

I've been focusing TOO much, or rather, ALL the focus has been on MY pain, hurt, anger....and very little on his.

Huge lightbulb moment for me this weekend.
Huge.