HBS,

You have a strong diposition and heart. Even with having to deal with your pregnancy, you are showing resilience which is very encouraging. C/b the motherly protective instinct in you or just your character. Either way it is proving beneficial for you.

So you realize you are dealing with an OW who thinks she has a right to your money man, right? She is not about to give up this gold mine.

Ask your WS.... (still consider him as a ws, ok?)...ask him. What do these (OWs) do for him that makes it worth all the misery? Yea..... don't limit it to one....make it sound worse than you know or it may be, because when you do he may resort to telling you more in his defense to NOT look as bad as you are making it seem. Crazy? Yes, it is....and very much the way a WS thinks. So you gotta be one step ahead of his crap.

Have you read Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs? Read up. It will help. Also it is best you get a recovery plan going for you 1st.

Your M recovery will require the WS shed that WS skin and let your H come back. The work on the M recovery is mainly on him not you. His anger shows he isn't ready for real recovery and a bad liar. Learn to use his actions against him by redirecting his actions to your advantage.

We share a technique some here call 'reverse babble' it helps the BS give back the guilt from the WS and learn to gather info, use it and move forward.

Now do you know how t/d a background check on the OW? When the OW gets brazen enough, expect her to try to control you. So are you prepared for it? Btw, you may want to read up on your rights as far as harrassment goes. So when the OW does stuff you will when and what to report. It doesn't take much.

Do the background check 1st. You can do some for free and more indepth research will require paying a fee. Start with zabasearch(dot)com.

L.

I can't believe you put up with him going out every night after work. Does he spend ANY time with his kid? Regardless of whether or not he is having an affair, this behavior is immature and irresponsible. That is single guy behavior!!

Thank you for reading and for responding.

Orchid,
Great advice and thank you for saying I have a strong dispostion. I do, but at times, I do think I hang on too much when I should just cut my losses and move on.
Thats how I am feeling right now. I just dont know what to do or what to think. I am definitely NOT feeling very strong right now. And FWIW, I *still do* consider him a WS.
Until I know 100% otherwise, I just have to assume.

I just checked his text log this AM and sure enough, a number from the past..that OW has used to call him from...appeard at 11pm on Saturday night.
Funny thing is that WH was asleep and *I* checked the message myself. It was short..and said "what is X's number"?
I assumed it was just one of his friend's asking about another friend's number. But, now I am not so sure.

He didnt reply to it, however he KNOWS I saw that message b/c I did it right in front of him and I think he was pretending to be asleep at that point. He then woke up and went into the bathroom and of course, had his phone w/him.
Today when I cheked the log, the # didnt jump out at me until I looked at it again. Yep, she has used it (its her Friend's) to text him before, after she found out I KNEW about her.
I've never seen or read ANY of her previous texts to see what they say, but I do now think that this text was:
1. a code
2. a way to avoid HER # appearing. I'm assuming here, that he *told her* I'm onto her new cell # and not to use it.

ITs either these reasons, or else, If I am to belive WS...
3. the text was a way to get him to reply to her, thereby initiating contact (IF there hasnt been any as HE says).

She is a tricky B isnt she! However, I'm pretty sure now, that it was a code for him to call her.

Fiat,
Yes, you are absolutely right. WH IS very immature AND he does still want to act and live as if he were single.
He just refuses to SEE it that way. Believe me, this has been a sore spot in our marriage from day one. Its no wonder our M has been so up and down and I want to pull my hair out all the time.
He does spend *some* time w/ us as a family. Weekends (well, with the exception of this one) he is home or out w/us all day. He rarely goes out on the wknds, except w/us.
M-F is a totally different story as he gets to do whatever he wants to.
I guess I'm just at a loss as to HOW to make him stop doing it. I cant MAKE him come home. I cant MAKE him stop going out for a drink w/the guys after work.

Any advice? Besides telling me to give him an ultimatum, that is?

With a Passive agressive man, ultimatums dont work. And I'm NOT ready for Plan B yet, as we were seperated for 5 months just this summer, and I'm not ready to go that route again.

Orchid,
I wanted to address your post again---

quote- What do these (OWs) do for him that makes it worth all the misery? Yea..... don't limit it to one....make it sound worse than you know or it may be, because when you do he may resort to telling you more in his defense to NOT look as bad as you are making it seem. Crazy? Yes, it is....and very much the way a WS thinks

This is a GREAT idea. I will try that!

And yes, I have heard of *reverse babble* however, I must admit, I'm not that good at it yet.
I read SO much info, that at times I get overwhelmed and then when it comes time to use the info..I forget it all ESPECIALLY when its in the heat of the moment. KWIM?

Is there any post or place that I can get more info on the reverse babble and good examples to use, specifics, myself?
Thanks again for your reply.

And WRT, HN/HN, yes I have read it, but not yet read SAA.
This weekend, I picked up the book After the Affair, and Living with the Passive Agressive Man.

They did not have SAA at the store, so I think I'll order that online today. I found LWPAM full of great info, but not so much, for the other book. I dunno. I guess I just want to hear that my M is going to work out so long as I work hard at it. And it definitely didnt sound that way to me from this book. No wonder I didnt care for it. LOL

This is, I know, setting myself up for disappointment, but its how I feel. I just want hope, some hope, ANY hope that things will get better for us. I really miss the honeymoon period of 1st part of our R and M, and then again the 1st part of our "getting back together" this summer.

Seems now, we're back to the awful feeling times that we went thru right before our seperation and then during our time apart. I cant and wont deal with this again, so we've got to find a way to fix it.

I also know that at this point, the R of our M, really IS up to WS.
THAT is a very difficult concept to grasp, esp when HE Doesnt seem to see, or better yet, WONT ACCEPT or ADMIT, that HE is the major problem here.
Its very frustrating, especially when he turns it all around on me and I end up the bad guy.

----weekend update follows-----
So, Friday after work I went to pick up our D from daycare, which is normal for me.
However, I could not drop my suspicious feelings that WS was out w/OW.
He frequents this bar, and I've done several "Drive bys" before to check up on him. He has always been there when he says he is..but for some reason, I had a bad feeling this Friday especially after our last phone convo. I had a bad feeling that he was going to see her and not come home.

So, D and I headed out to see if he was indeed at the bar. If not, from there I was prepared to drive to OW's apt to see. However, when we pull into the bar p.lot, sure enough I saw his car. I was half relieved.
What I *didnt* expect was for him to be outside and to SEE ME driving by.

I tried to drive off quickly but he caught me and called my cell to come back by. I did and he was very nice, even got our D out of the car and introduced her to the guys he was with (coworkers). He opened my door too, but I didnt respond for getting out, so I think he decided to just leave me there. He did kiss me and said not to worry, that he was NOT with any females, etc....
He said I was crazy for driving all the way back to check on him, but fine, whatever. Said anytime I want, I can drive by and see WHERE he parks his car and if its NOT there, then he is down the street at his office.
He was kind, well, sorta, but then again, he had been drinking for a few hours, I'm sure.

So we left and he called a few times after that saying he was on his way home (around 730pm). I stopped at the book store, and when I got home, he was already there, but I could tell he was upset.
See how upset HE gets when *I* am not at home and HE is??
He cant STAND that.

So anyways. After getting home, we hung out as a family. Made dinner and watched TV for a while.
We didnt talk about anything "important" as I didnt really want to go there and HE NEVER DOES. LOL

He finally fell asleep on the couch so I layed down next to him. He snuggled for a minute...well, I should say I snuggled with him and all of the sudden it hit me as to HOW MUCH he has changed with me.
We USED to be SO much more affectionate. We used to ALWAYS hug and kiss and lay on the couch, spooning, so to speak and he ALWAYS held me close to him.
But that night, it was as if I was a leper, as he BARELY touched me and felt like his arm around me was like touching hot coals. He placed it on my waist for a minute, but then removed it right away.
I kissed him a few times too...just wanted to see HOW he would respond and if MAYBE we could breakthru the no SF. (Even though I was not ready to give in yet..for STD reasons etc).
And well, he pulled away. Just as I knew he would.

Finally we just got up and went to bed.

So Saturday, he got up and went to his IC. Well, its not exactly an IC..its group therapy for anger mgt (court imposed due to our fight back in Mar 06).
He typically comes home right after , but not that day.
This is where I *KNEW* he was angry and showing it in his classic PA way.

He NEVER said he wasnt coming back, but instead, left and said "see you guys later".
He went out..and came home around 6pm. Gone ALL DAY.

He called at noon and said he was at his office as he had work to do. My 1st instinct was that he went there to use his phone to call OW..and while there..call me from his WORK # so that he could PROVE that he was there.
I asked what his plans were after, and he said none..that he was just coming home.

So, around 2pm, no call again, and he wasnt home. I got in my car and drove all the way out to OW's house. CRAZY? Yes, I know...but I had to know.
Luckily, he wasnt there. Not that he couldnt have been there earlier, or later, or not that he was not somewhere else, with HER...but at least I could confirm he wasnt THERE.
I just went back home after that, half hoping that he would be there, but of course he wasnt.

He finally came home around 6pm, about 1 hour after I did.
He came in, like nothing was wrong.

I decided to just drop it and not ask WHERE he had been and WHY he was out all day. I just wasnt in the mood and I sort of knew that should I bring any questions up, he would get upset, turn it around on me (classic PA) and then get his way by leaving again. (he has done this many times before, its not a surprise.)

So the rest of the night consisted again of just hanging out and watching tv. We didnt talk much, certainly was not affectionate and I could tell he was VERY angry with me.

So, instead of addressing that he was MAD at me for spying on him on Friday night, or calling him or asking about OW, or WHATEVER the reason he is mad is, he didnt, and instead took it out on me the next day with silence and absence.

So as you can see, it was NOT a good weekend.

Sunday, I finished reading the PA book, and got lots of tips and ways of approaching a PA man.
I cant even begin to say how RELIEVED I am to know, that he is PA. At least this gives me some sort of Explanation as to WHY is does/is/acts as he does.
Knowing this takes the pressure off me, knowing its NOTHING I do, or did. Its all him.
Of course, I myself do contribute and enable his behaviour, but I'll work on stopping that. I'm just relieve to know I'm not crazy afterall.


Oh so Sunday night, things were okay. I was trying to be nice, not start anything...but, later on I thought, heck with it..lets talk about our R.
I got out the EN worksheet.

A few weeks ago, I was telling him, during a night out w/just the 2 of us, about HN/HN and the EN concept.
At the time, I related it to a couple we know, who is going thru M issues of their own.
He seemed to understand the idea and agreed that the are not on the same pg w/EN's.

Well, last night, I got out the EN worksheet and asked if he wanted to take a quick quiz about our R.
He halfheartedly agreed, so I started in.

The 1st answer about Affection, he stated he gave a 3. Middle of the road.
Said he is satisfied there.

2nd question re: SF.
He said he was fine there and no issues. Then I asked HOW MUCH he would like it..and this is where it all went downhill.

He refused to answer.

Said it was dumb. Not a valid question. (now remember, we have not had SF together for over a month, so this is another SORE spot for me/him).
So I said, come on dear, just say in a perfect world, how many times a week/month or whatever would you like to DTD?
He finally said FINE!! ONCE A MONTH. HAPPY NOW?????

After that, he was very UPSET and said he didnt care about this STUPID quiz and NO QUIZ is going to tell him HOW to be or WHAT his problem is.
He even went so far as to call it an "Oprah quiz" or stupid "Cosmo quiz" w/no merit.

I said, okay, we dont have to take the quiz then, to which he replied, no its okay. We can do it, just now that I dont care what its GOING TO SAY ABOUT ME.
I tried to explain that there is no RIGHT or WRONG answer and that its just for US to find out about EACHOTHER. For him to know that I would like SF more, and for me to know where HE STANDS.
I think he started to feel badly, but then didnt reply again. Said, go ahead, whats the next question.
This is where MY PA came in and I said it was fine and I put the quiz away. I actually just DROPPED it on the floor, sorta hoping he would pick it up later and read thru MY replies.

So we sat there and watched the Amazing Race. I found myself pouting a bit and began to laugh at myself. I could tell he felt badly too, because he started to be nicer, speak to me more, and laugh a little which he WASNT doing earlier in the day.

We finally went to be around 9pm. He got in bed, turned over and pretended to be asleep. I got my book out and started reading the whole time being more po'd than ever.
Our D was in our bed and when she went to sleep, I asked him to take her to her room and he said no.
"she'll just come right back, crying. So just leave her here".
My thought was that she being in our bed, gives him the space he wants between us and allows him to rationalize why we dont SF and why he isnt affectionate to me in the bedroom.

I am just so tired of going thru this. Ever weekend, every night, hoping for something from him. Hoping for a spark, a touch, a hug, smile what EVER just to show me SOMETHING!

So, you ask about a Recovery Plan.

Are you saying I should have a plan, like a Plan B?
Or a R plan for our M.

Am I supposed to Plan A, again?

I'm just not sure I have the patience for it. When will it be MY turn to get my EN's met?

I feel like I give and give and give, and he gets to take take take while returing NOTHING.

And its even worse because a lot of his behaviours now, are behaviors *I* used to exhibit myself. Non-affection, PA'ness, pouty behaviour etc.

Its like the tides have turned and he is riding the wave as long as he can and will get away with.

I just dont know how to stop the tide from turning.

Was reminded of this on another post, but I have questions as to what to do about it:

The two most important rules for surviving an affair are to 1) never see or talk to the lover again (and create extraordinary conditions to guarantee that outcome), and 2) follow a plan for marital recovery that leads to a mutual feeling of romantic love (with emphasis on the Policy of Undivided Attention, the Policy of Radical Honesty, and the Policy of Joint Agreement as outlined in "Fall in Love, Stay in Love."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


His ending statement was:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If either you or your husband fail to follow these rules, you are not likely to recover from this affair.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is why I keep saying to...FOLLOW THESE RULES EXPLICITLY.


*********************************
My questions is....HOW can you possible do these things, when the WS wont comply? A BS cannot do this on ones own.

How can I even get him to understand these concepts, when he wont acknowledge a problem in the first place?

He would never read the book, so unless I TELL him about these, he wont know and therefore wont do them.

Even still, he probably would agree, but then turn around and refuse to comply.

Makes me wonder if my M is a lost cause already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

hbs, please read the link in my sig line about the MB thread on dealing with a passive/aggressive spouse. If you're short on time, you can start on page 53 and read the rest as you can.

His P/A stuff has got to be dealt with before the MB principles can work. Otherwise, it's like trying to use MB on an alcoholic. It won't work and you will drive yourself crazy trying to figure out why when it works for so many others.

BTW: Not to make you feel any worse, but I think he got snarly about the SF question because he's getting that need filled elsewhere right now and wants to just put you on the shelf when it comes to that. That's why he didn't want to answer.

Please start reading that other thread. There is a lot of good information and practical solutions there. Let us know how it's going.
Mulan

Thanks Mulan.

I did start reading that thread, but yes, it is long and I only got to page 7 or so.
I'll start at pg 53 now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And not to worry, I'm already well aware that the SF is probably being fulfilled elsewhere. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Dear Hurt,

Sorry to say, but your WS shows all the signs of still being in the A. I can say this with unfortunately the experience of having a WH try to appear as a FWH, but the words and the actions don't match. I see that your WH still works for the same company, can he change companies, what about moving? As the article says, extraordinary messures. But what to do when your WH won't participate?
I guess still consider that the A is still on and try to Plan A him. This also means you should expose to as many people as possible, at his work and hers. There are others here that can advise about these things, I came here after the A was broken up again, so I didn't do exactly the Plan A, but as you point out, some of it is instinctive.

Good luck and hang in there, take care of yourself and your children. Why don't you have WH take care of your daughter and give you some TLC time for a massage/manicure, or just walk around a mall?

Have you exposed... to his co-workers that he's cheating on his pregnant wife?

Have you exposed... to OW significant others, including parents, husband (if she has one), etc.?

Have you done a sufficiently excellent Plan A - where you work ALL of the emotional needs, not just the ones he supposedly answered affirmative to? Just like when you first met and fell in love?

Passive aggressive spouses respond very well to direct non-conflict-avoiding Plan A followed by a very dark Plan B. Many wayward spouses would fit the DSM IV description of passive aggressive disorder. It's part of the nature of affairs, i.e. cake-eating.

If you can hold it together for two weeks, being your best self- getting up, taking care of yourself and your environment, looking beautiful, radiant, cooking good food, keeping a clean house (bring in someone from your church while he's at work if you need help to do this since you're expecting), get a sweet, but not overly mushy card, take a favorite treat to work, etc. - for two weeks...

Then, Plan B - tell him you KNOW he's been cheating the whole time; you don't want to argue about it because it hurts too much to be lied to further; here's your plan b letter, he can read it at his convenience, but here's his bag and he needs to go now, if he hopes to restore your marriage, your love and a two parent family for his children. Have a minister and friends there to back you up so that he doesn't get abusive or try to bully you.

Hbs,

You can click on the link in my sig line and read about the stages of grieving and reverse babble. You will see what you may be going through. Once you recognize these stages, you can prepare for them and work through them.

As for reverse babble. Put in 'reverse babble' on search link and go back a few years. There's lots of examples out there. If you want me to tackle a few you have heard, post them on a thread and I will give it a shot. Others here are good at it and can help.

Recovery comes in 2 stages: Your personal recovery and Marital recovery.

Your personal recovery is within your control. The M one requires the cooperation of both with more work coming from the Xws than the BS.

As for his tantrums....that's a given. He's an Xws who is now having to face his issues and he doesn't like it. Anger management courses empahsizes the fact that he isn't in control. Don't absorb his anger or guilt. Hear it and give it back to him. That's what reverse babble does.

Staying in plan A too long is detrimental. How long should one be in plan A? As long as you need to make your personal improvements. At that time, if he is still a WS, the move to plan B. If he isn't, then implementing recovery is possible. Going to plan B requires your mind and heart be in sync. The hard piece is that you can't force your mind and heart t/b in sync, that takes time. Which requires you pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.

Go read Love must be tough by Dr Dobson. It will give you some pointers of what plan B ought t/b like.

take care,
L.

Kayla-
Thank you for your response. I have to admit that what you wrote both made me feel good, and was hard to read at the same time.
First, I do appreciate your concern and taking the time to reply with some great advice.
Unfortunately, I am in no way, shape or form, even ready to consider Plan B. As Orchid mentioned, getting my head and heart the same page, is VERY difficult right now.

That may change as time goes on, however right now, I just feel like I only have *suspicions* of the continued A, but unlike the 1st d-day, I cant confirm 100%.
Each time I am *certain* I will catch WS w/OW, I am wrong.
Perhaps, I am being stupid? {{shrugs}} I dunno.

I have exposed the A to his family, my family, some of his friends, and OW knows I know about her.
Other than that, no. I did not expose further, and have not since Aug.
OW is not married, and I have tried to find out who her parents are, however to no avail.

Should I continue to expose to more co-workers, boss, even though I'm not exactly positive the A continues. ??
Personally, I feel that I need more concrete evidence, whether by more phone records, or proof of HIM replying to/calling her, or more spying before further exposure.

Exposing, and then being wrong, would IMO, further drive WS from me, emotionally and physically.

Our home computer went on the fritz, so at present time, we dont have one.
However, I'm in the process of getting it repaired so that I can use a key logger to see if they communicate via email.
At this time, the ONLY way they comminucate, from my view, is when at work...via his work email or work phone.

Re: Plan A.
I am positive that I did an EXCELLENT Plan A, immediately after I found out, and continued w/that thru the end of Sept, so a total of about 2 months.
Things were great in Aug/Sept, and even thru the 1st half of Oct. WS was responding well to the plan, and was focusing back in on our M.
What changed that?

My personal belief, (trying not to be naive here) is that OW contacted him and he went back into withdrawl.
I know for a fact, via cell records, that she contacted him on Aug 24th using another person's phone.
No record of Sept contact, but then she texted him again on Oct 2nd, and Oct 4th from her NEW cell #.
During that time, I did NOT let on that I had suspicions that she had a new #.
Then no phone record again until Oct 26 (from HER #), then another text on the 28th(using friends' #)

So, IF she didnt think I knew about her new #, why wouldnt she continue to call, and/or then call from a friend's # between those times?

However, as you can see, there has been more frequent contact from her, and these dates coincide with the time when WS stopped being intimate w/me. Our last SF was 12SEP. And he began to withdraw from me emotionally around the 1st week of OCT...when I first saw her texts from a new #. Again there have only been 2 texts this month.

So, is a few phone records, and no SF between us, enough proof that the A continues?
And is this sufficient enough for me to start in on a Plan B?

As I said before, and perhaps this is not part of the MB principles, but (pre- MB, pre A knowledge) we already went thru a 5 month separation, one in which I was VERY NICE (plan A'ish--and the timne when he met and started A w/ OW) and followed that by a VERY DARK time (Plan B'ish) to which he did respond and 3 weeks later, returned home.

He DID return to the M, completely freely and on his own.

I NEVER, EVER asked him to return. Conversly, it was HE who practically begged me to come home. Yes, he was still in the midst/end of his A, however HE took the leap to ask me to come back.
It took me a month to agree, and only when I did, did the info of his A come to light. (1 week later).
At the time, he said he was RELIEVED for me to find out. That the guilt was killing him.

So, because of this, I am just not prepared to go into another Dark Plan B.
I *do* know Plan B works, especially for a P/A man. However, I cant keep doing Plan A, Plan B, Plan A, Plan B for the rest of my life. Its got to end somewhere.

I feel like this is it. The end of our ropes. Figure it out, or get out. No more game playing, no more "Plan B'ing".

Go ahead....sting me with your comments. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just feel like we need to either figure it out NOW....or move on.


AND the fact that I have recently discovered his Passive Agressive personality, I finally, for the 1st time in our 11 year relationship, feel like I have some tools to cope and can only NOW begin to figure him out.
And therefore, finally work and make strides at improving our M.
Pre P/A knowledge, I tried everything and if not for finding out about this, I probably right now would be feeling something completely different.

But, its like we're playing by a completely different set of rules than most, and I finally found the "how to play manual".


--
update:
So, as I explained in my previous post, he was very upset with me over the weekend. Sunday barely spoke to me, until the evening.
Monday, I decided to return to a Plan A stance. I texted him in the morning, asking for a phone number and upon receipt I replied back with a "thank you honey. Have a great day. I'll see you tonight".

He only replied with "ok".

However, that night, with so many things on my brain, I left my cell phone at the office by accident. I called him from a friend's number and explained.
Upon picking up my D from daycare, I drove back out to his office to see WHAT he would do after work.
I got there around 8p, just about the time they started closing up shop, which they normally do around 9p.
He left around 815p, but unfortunately, he took off before I could see which way he went.
I drove by the bar. He wasnt there.

I completely figured he went to OW's house, so I drove out there. Not near by, and a good 45 mins from our's. So, it was something that I did not want to do, but felt I had no choice.
Thankfully, he wasnt there either.

So, I just drove home and got there around 930p. He was there, had been there and was eating dinner.
As soon as I got in, he started in w/20 questions about my whereabouts.
I told him I was w/my dad and then we went to the mall.

That night, when we went to bed, he was a bit more affectionate and we chatted about movies and perhaps going to see something this weekend. For the past month, he has BARELY touched me, but Monday night, he *allowed* his foot to touch mine and even though his back was turned to me, he inched closer and closer to me until his behind was touching me.
I know this sounds insignificant, but somehow, to me it isnt.

Yesterday, Halloween, I got D dressed up and told WS I was taking her to the festivities at a mall near his office. What I didnt tell him, was that I was going to stop by his job.
It was about 5pm and thankfully he was there.

We went in for a minute and stayed in the reception room. I sorta expected him to take us back and to show D off to his his office, however that wasnt the case.
A few of his friends came out into the lobby and he introduced me to 2 of them.
A 3rd friend, who I've met before, was also there and I have a sneaking suspicion he was "hiding" in the back as he either "KNOWS" OW, or knows all about the A and didnt really want to talk to me or say anything to me.

WS and his coworker (who I was introduced to) were apparently on the way to the bank, so we left pretty quickly.
At first I was bothered that we were *shuffled* out so fast, but then I realized that WS did have his jacket on, and his coworker had keys in his hand and when got in.
In fact, I could see the guy standing in the lobby thru the window when we got out of the car...presumably waiting for my H to come out so they could go.
So, I doubt the "bank" thing was made up. Just bad timing on my part I feel.
My negative side was at first thinking that he just wanted me out of there and WHY didnt he want to introduce me to his office mates? I PURPOSLY got all dolled up and looking good. Thankfully, I was having a GREAT hair day. LOL
Anyhow. The trip to the office was not what I had hoped, but at least I did it. WS was not upset, and I sort of half wondered if he was going to be.

After that, D and I went to the mall, and WS said he was probably going to leave early as the phones were not to busy due to Halloween.
We got home around 730p, and WS came home around 8p.

When he got home he was very nice, loving, talkative, and even gave me a great kiss and hug and asked if I wanted him to make dinner.

Why am I tell you all this? I dunno really.

I guess I want to know if this new attitude toward me, is just a PLOY of his to keep me off kilter, or if its in response to my recent resumed A accusations.
Or, if due to passively agressively gettng me back over the weekend for accusing/following him, he is now *over the anger* and able to be kind to me again. ?

I often wonder, if I am just so used to accepting his crumbs that when he does give me a crumb, I find any way to satisfy myself with them...even though I know I'm still starving for more.

I guess too, I just realize that I'm so, so so, so tired of being angry and upset all the time. I dont LIKE myself this way. This is not who I am.....and I'm tired of this person.

And I'm really tired of my militant snooping. I'm tired of all of it. My energy is drained.

I guess I'm just ready for some upfront confrontation and information.

I hope to get WS to agree to MC soon.

I'm going to ask him dinner this weekend, and this is when I plan to discuss this.

During our Pre-M counseling session, we learned the best place to have a "discussion" is NOT at home.
Its outside, or somewhere where we both are on neutral territory.

Mulan,
I am on pg 57 now, and I've had to pick up my jaw off the floor about 80 times since page 53.

YOU really know your stuff. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I can see, just in the past few pages, that *I* have been the difference lately.
*MY* attitude has changed, in reaction to his withdrawl in the past month or so.

This summer, before and after he moved back home I was confident. Finally to the point, where I was accepting that we just might not be together again. EVER.
I found myself also, starting to look good again, FOR MYSELF. Started noticing OM checking me out...and even more so...I also found myself WANTING to put myself out there.

At one point over the summer, I *knew* he was probably seeing someone..his actions/words/attitude was so weird...that I knew something was up. I never imagined the DEGREE of this but, thats beside point.
I too started to "feel good" again when a co-worker of mine told another co-worker that he "couldnt believe that my H would let someone like me go". That "if HE could, he would ask me out in a heartbeat".
Luckily for me, I am a very strong woman, and would NEVER do anything w/ an man unless and until I'm D'd from my own.
Even as needy as I was at that time...cuz BOY was I NEEDY.
So, this has been one way that I have been able to accept WS's A.
Not that I am okay with it by ANY means..but I can really understand how and WHY it happened. What I cant get over is the degree of the R and how much time/SF they had and the LIES that WS told. I told him and really do feel this way...that I *forgive him* for it...can *understand it* but I cannot and wont let it continue. If he's with me...then he's with me.
If he doesnt want to be...then leave. Plain and simple.
He has always replied with "I am where I really want to be".

I guess what I'm saying is that this summer, and for the 1st 2 months of our reconciliation, I was stronger.


Over our seperation, I guess I feel that I had *already lost him*, so to speak, and was doing FINE on my own.

I didnt miss him, okay. Yes, of course I did. But I was getting to a point that I think I was just missing being LOVED and shown AFFECTION.
Of course, I wanted my H to give that to me..but the reality was starting to sink in, that I just may not get that back again.

So, when we DID have contact over the summer, I was NOT the same person that I seem to be now.

I WAS NOT needy, desperate, unsure of myself, insecure etc.
Now, I am feeling ALL those things creep back up on me, and I can see how his respect for me is dwindling.

I need to buck up and get my ego and self respect back.
I swear I still have it most days. But, once a week or so, I feel them creeping on. I've got to stop them from occuring.

Its all so clear now.

When he goes out after work, he DOESNT CALL to tell me "I'm out, I'll be back at xyz time". He just doesnt call....
Because he KNOWS that it would PLEASE ME if he did.

I used to think that he didnt want to *hear me get upset* like a kid who doesnt want to call his parents when he'll be past curfew...an "I'll just deal with it once, when I get home" atttitude.

But now I see that its his REFUSAL to be controlled which is the reason.

He knows I want/expect him to call...therefore, he doesnt call b/c then I'll get my way and he will feel as if he GAVE IN to my expecation or request.

BINGO.

The thing I'm having a hard time with, some times when I've given him the room to do as he does, ie: not call...is when I have learned that he was w/ OW.

The Friday of the 1st week he came back home, he said he was out w/friends from work. He called me at 6pm, 9pm and then 10pm, to tell me "we are moving onto the next spot"...I wont be home late though. I love you".

And...dun dun dun dun....He came home at 5am.


Around 2am, I had my suspicions (not of an A, but so angry that he was not home) and I was SO MAD that the FIRST WEEK he is back, he is pulling this crap on me??? Already???
Wow. Some nerve.

But, still I refused to call him that night. Didnt want him to "see me sweat" or to come across as needy or clingy.
Afterall, he had JUST returned home and I wasnt about to send him packing already. I let it go.

The next day, I had to work, and he stayed home w/our D. I called and asked if we could go out for dinner, rather than cook at home.
We went to the beach with our D and ate fish and chips while watching the sun set. Sounds cheesy, but it was straight out of a book. It was everything I have wanted in our M for a LONG time. Still, I felt WS was distant, pre-occupied, but couldnt put my finger on it. Thought perhaps it was due to just being back in my company after so many months.
That night we stayed up until 2am talking and drinking chablis and laughing until our sides hurt. We talked about things we had not talked about and basically TALKED, when we had not done so, since WAY before our D was born.

WS even said "you know that these classes I'm going to have really helped. I am no longer the person I was a few months ago. I am different.
You know that last year, we would not have been able to sit here, and talk like this...I have changed".
We both slept on the floor in our family room, wrapped in eachothers arms.

Things seemed SO GOOD.


And the next week is when I learned of the OW. And then SHE told me "he was at my house on Friday night...said he had to be at the house early..so left around 4AM".

What a fool I felt like.

My point in telling you this?? Well, its that I WAS strong, I WAS confident, I DID demand something...and you know what...WS delivered.

So, I guess now I just need to put my foot down and let him know that he cant and wont walk all over me. Not now. Not ever.

Oh, and THE reason WS gave me for "ending the A" was that OW was *starting to have feelings".

My guess is that she was wanting MORE from him. Like a committment perhaps?
And hearing that..."control, control, control"...he had to get out ASAP.

FWIW, I believe he never really explained to OW WHY he was ending his A. Classic P/A man...couldnt tell the truth...just wanted it to all go away.
When I talked to her...she said "I feel so much better now...at least I know why he started acting funny".

Hmm...its all coming full circle to me know.

I'll keep reading so I can get help on how to make that happen.

Thanks again Mulan....I feel like I've been given the key to unlocking my future...one way or another.

Thanks - but I began learning about this just recently and I am so grateful to StillHereMakingIt, Silverpool, TruBluz and several others who helped me enormously.


You've got it. Exactly. I operated for *years* from the idea that my husband did not want to hurt me and that I must not be making myself clear about how his actions were affecting me. Once I got it through my head that oh yes he WOULD hurt me if it meant getting his own way without consequence and without being "controlled", things got much easier and actually much less stressful for me. *Then* I felt that I could cope with the real problem.


The only thing I know for this is direct confrontation. Tell him you know he is lying and you know he was with OW. If he asks how you know, just tell him you know. Then - most important - just turn around and WALK AWAY. Don't stand there and wait for him to agree with you, or make amends, or explain, or apologize, or anything else. Just leave him there alone holding the P/A bag while you go to the mall or for a walk or whatever.


Yup - telling whatever you want to hear so he can keep you right where he wants you (out of the way and quiet.) And it worked, too, didn't it?


I felt exactly the same way. Just hang in there. It will take a while, but you've really got nothing to lose and everything to gain here.
Mulan

Yep. Worked like a charm. Against my own better judgement...I purchased hook, line and sinker.
Can I return it as "buyers remorse?" LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

quote-
The only thing I know for this is direct confrontation. Tell him you know he is lying and you know he was with OW. If he asks how you know, just tell him you know. Then - most important - just turn around and WALK AWAY. Don't stand there and wait for him to agree with you, or make amends, or explain, or apologize, or anything else. Just leave him there alone holding the P/A bag while you go to the mall or for a walk or whatever.


YES! This is EXACTLY what I need to do. My issue, which I understand I need to get over, is that I have a hard time being okay with "MY KNOWLEDGE being sufficient".
I always look for confirmation...or for him (or anyone) to validate my feelings...and/ or ADMIT.
But you are right...I just have to KNOW and be okay with MY knowledge. He wont ever admit.

My need for validation comes from my childhood. My mother is a wonderful woman, but a perfectionist, well, for her KIDS. Nothing was ever good enough. I was ALWAYS looking for her approval. Day of my college graduation, I turned to my mom and gave her my diploma. Said here..."its finally yours".
Took me 2 years of therapy to graps that I was a acting like a 16yr old kid, looking for approval. ANY approval.

Its not a wonder I chose the mate that I did.
He is/was everything my mother didnt want. LOL

I still use my lessons from therapy on my R w/my mom and our R has improved 120%.
I've always searched for the same w/ my H.
Finally, I feel like I've got a shot.

And yes, yes, yes...
I too, thought his behaviour stemmed from him not wanting to hurt me...but yep. He would walk on coals, hit me w/whatever he could, if it meant he could get his way or not be controlled.

This is quite a tough pill to swallow.

Back to more reading.
And no, I'm not getting a LICKs worth of work done today. haha

So, its been about a week, since I've been here. I think I just needed to get a break from all this and wrap my head around the truth about our home life. Sometimes I wonder if my anxiety is perpetuated by visiting these boards...and getting myself all worked up over nothing. Or perhaps, its in dealing with the reality/truth of my M, that is so perplexing. Ah, its just a lot to deal with.

Last week was a good one for us. WS was home every night after work, -by 8p at the latest. (he works until 9p, but they have been stopping early lately)

I'm pretty sure his being home was not in anyway, a reflection of any renewed feelings towards me...or a change in him.
Rather, I feel, that it was only the week before payday, and therefore he just didnt have the $ to be out at the bar every night. I'm pretty sure this is the truth, which makes me very sad. But, at least he was home, having dinner with us, playing and spending time with the family.

Thursday night he surprised me and asked if I wanted to carpool to work w/him on Friday. I was floored. I was SO tempted to ask him myself before that, but didnt, b/c well, I didnt want to be rejected. Didnt want to put any hope or expectation on an unrealistic situation. (part of dealing with a P/A man).

The drive in was fine. We just listened to the radio...oh and I shared with him the happenings from Dr Phil show from the day before. About an AWFUL WS who had multiple A's and how his wife totally accepted it..and this guy had no remorse for his actions.

My H was semi receptive to the story. He listened quietly but didnt say much which was fine w/me. I just wanted him to see the results of a WS from another persons perspective. Not sure it had any impact on him however.

On the way home, we did talk about our R in more detail. I've been trying hard NOT to bring up any hot topics (our M, for example) but somehow that came up.

WS shared w/me that its only been in the past month, that he has felt "comfortable" being himself again.

I tried like heck to get more info out of him, but he started clamming up and making references to things I didnt understand. He started talking about how we are so different, opposite personalities and how he finally knows how to not *Let me get to him*. How is Anger Mgt classes are really helping him cope and not let others make him react.

At this point, I felt comfortable enough myself to share with him that I've been doing some research myself, to not only improve our M, but also ME...and came across the P/A H, Angry Wife syndrome...also called the Boomerang Relationship.

He was open to listening and I shared some specifc examples of exactly HOW we fit that mold.

Specifically, I pointed to THE HOTTEST topic right now for ME...the lack of SF between us.
He started to get uncomfortable immediately and tried to change the subject numerous times. He even turned the radio up to which I turned it back down and shone the spotlight on him big time.

I shared that this is an EXACT example of his skirting the issue and how rather than HELP our M, it only hurts us because I am left feeling bad for asking, and he is left not sharing his thoughts with me..and this is not the recipe for a happy M.

He finally said, although I belive it to be a lie...that the reason for his lack of SF is that (and I quote) "Whenver I have SF w/you..you end up pregnant".

I just laughed because, okay..so yeah...I am PG..but its not like I can get PG AGAIN right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I called him on it and all he could do was shrug and clam up.

Rather than get upset, I counteracted with a calm voice and asked him if he felt that I *trapped* him into getting pregnant this time.

He said yes.

I was crushed.

Yes, sure, I wanted another baby, but no, I did not intentionally get PG.

I also reminded him that it was HE who begged me to have another baby this summer..(after our 1st reunited SF) and when I told him that I was not on any BC, he laughed and said GOOD and disregarded my plea to not try to get me pg.
Well, I didnt get pg that time..but I did a month later...and he knew FULL WELL that I was still not on any BC.

So, okay. Irresponsible? Yes, I can admit that. Did I want another baby? Yes, I did.
Did I TRAP him, intentionally trying to get pg to "trap" or "keep him", or "make him stay"..no, absolutely not.

But, that is HIS perception.

Finally I said that I was sorry that he felt that way but I could very easily say that HE is the one who trapped me as he KNEW I was not protected.
He said yes, that was true also.

And then again, I calmly reminded him that he does NOT have to be here if he doesnt want to.

I (using Dr Phil's words) can try to build a HUGE fence, to keep him from straying or leaving, but if he wants out, or to continue the A, then NO fence I build will ever keep him from that.

I reminded him again that its HIS Choice.

And using the tools I've leaned recently, I reminded him that I am NOT trying to control him, keep him, hurt him or any other negative thing.

I am trying to love him and to make our family work.

I think I got my point across.

WS did say some things, that honestly, hurt my feelings, a lot.
Feeling that I *trapped* him was a huge blow to me...but I sorta knew that all along.

Oh and I also commented on his behavior last week of not saying he was angry w/me but then the next day giving me the silent treatment the next day.

He seemed SHOCKED that I picked up on that.
He then went on to say that Yes, he was angry but part of him was HAPPY that I drove by the bar and saw that (and I quote) "he was not with any females". "YES"...he said ..."I WIN, I WIN" he said is what he thought about that.

I told him that I was "glad he won" and that I would be MORE THAN HAPPY TO LOSE THAT ONE EVERYTIME" In fact, I never want to WIN again. Its not about who wins or loses, because in the end...its about US winning together that is the main point".

He sat back and didnt say anything but "wow"...which is exactly what I was thinking.

What a departure....what a difference in our interations..its literally amazing.


After that talk, I just had to laugh...and told him to get ready b/c things are changing from MY end. No more of me sulking, no more of me getting angry...but he'd better be prepared for me to start being brutally honest and calling him out on his unhealthy behaviour/actions.


I am really hoping we can truly start to turn things around.
Again, I cant emphasize enough how finding out my WS is Passive-Agressive, has changed EVERYTHING.


--edited to add--

I during the drive home, I also brought up the "A"...and he denied, denied, denied.
Even though, in the past, he has admitted, well, sorta....he STILL wants me to believe that NOTHING HAPPENED with OW.

It made me very sad to know that even after all this time...he still wont come clean. Still wont admit. Still refuses to accept responsibility. STILL wants me to believe "it was nothing".

I read somewhere, that they will lie about the A for 2 reasons:

1. They honestly believe their own lie

2. They KNOW the Act of an A is wrong, thefore actually admitting to having one, is thereby admitting that what HE DID was wrong...and they just wont do that.
Admitting to being wrong, to a P/A person, is giving up too much control.

My personal as to why WS wont admit to me...is reason #2.

Hi, hbs - glad things seem a little better for you.


Did you see my post on "frognomore"'s thread today? It's all about "winning" from the P/A point of view.

And not to make anything worse, but - when I read your post today about how he still refuses to have SF with you and seems very very uncomfortable if you even mention it, my first thought was - has he been checked for STDs? Do you know for a fact that he has not contract one? It seems to me that that might be the one reason for a man to refuse SF with a willing partner (especially one he's married to.)

Just a thought - please keep hanging in there.
Mulan

Thanks Mulan.

I have not read your post yet, but I will get over there asap.

And yes, that thought crossed my mind this weekend. Its getting almost ridiculous now...esp since he DECLARES so loudly that he is not having SF w/anyone else.

I've decided to tell him that the only way I'll engage in SF (If and when he is ready for that), is IF and only IF he agrees to get checked FIRST.

Mulan
Yep. ITA w/FNM...I am mere white belt..you must be black belt in dealing w a P/A Spouse.

Funny how "winning" came up in my M this weekend too.

My WS actually used the words I WIN, I WIN and smiled and pumped his fists like a child who just won a baseball game.
It was so weird, childish, laughable....but I did recognize it as a need of his to be right, at all costs, which is exactly why I told him I'd be happy to lose that one anytime. A.N.Y.TIME.

He had NOTHING to say to that. He sat stunned and quiet. I dont think he quite knows what to make of my new reactions.
I am no longer "predictable".

And yep, I have to agree...their desire to be right, or to WIN, comes at any expense. Any. Even those they love.

FWIW, I too, USED to need to be in control, and win at any expense...and that created a huge power struggle in our R.
Before we got married, I was so afraid to be "hurt" by him, that my defenses were up and I was going to beat him to the punch, if it came to it. Ironically, HE was the one trying to break my walls down. I specifically remember him telling me that unless I "let him in", we would never be a close couple. Its so strange to see how much the tables have turned.

I'm no longer like this, and can finally recognize the difference. Almost like a fog...I'm coming out of it now too.

I'm anxious to see how much further the dynamics change when WS realizes I no longer need to WIN and yet will no longer participate in his game. It just might take all the fun out of his little competition.

We shall see...

My weekly update.

Things continue to look good. No further calls/texts from OW since 24OCT.

Another 2wks of WS coming home early, on time every night. Last weekend he was home with us everyday and this week has started to come back around to me physically and emotionally.
WS has started to touch me again, albeit lightly, but it is now there where it wasnt much over the past month. Last night he came home from work, sat on the couch, close to me and put his arm around me.
I honestly feel, like he is trying. Especially after his "just started to feel comfortable" comment of last week.

Still no SF, but I've dropped that for now. I'm tired of hoping, asking, wondering why not...so I am letting it go. I do have plans to bring it up soon, and set my boundaries.
I just dont want to live in a sexless marriage again/anymore.
We've been thru this previously (before/after DD was born) and I dont want to continue it.
I know how imporant SF is to our M, as when we do engage intimately, it does strengthen our bond immensly, even though the recent (or not so recent but the MOST recent) SF was a bit awkward (feelings wise) to say the least.

So, my question is..and I hope perhaps both WS's and BS's can give me some insight:

How did you carry on with the A, right under the nose of your BS?

As I mentioned before, WS and I were separated during the jist of his A, and as far as I can tell, there was only one night back in Aug where I know for sure he was w/ OW under my nose. Before we reunited however, I could sense a change in him and he was on his phone ALL THE TIME...with her I came to find out much later on.
During our separation, I just KNEW something was going on. WS acted so strange. Would hardly LOOK at me, kept his head down and kept minimal contact w/me to say the least. I even suspected his seeing another woman and asked him to which he replied with SHOCK.almost an "how dare you incinuate" attitude. Hmfp. What a con that turned out to be.

So I guess, looking back, I knew. Yes, of course I knew, HAD to expect something like this. We were apart and why wouldn't he go out and meet someone new? I was getting needy, wanting to do the same...why wouldnt he?

But, I have no experience of being IN an active Marriage and being cheated on. Okay, yeah we were married, but not "together" while he carried on w/OW. So I want to know...what are the signsof an active A? What could I be missing? If he is home w/his family almost all the time, WHEN is he spending time w/ the OP?


Since D-day, I have ZERO proof of the A continuing besides a few texts and some strange behaviour from WS.
On top of that, all his excuses or whereabouts "checked out" each time by my snooping, or doing drive bys.

Did you meet during the daytime to engage in your A? Did you get together at lunchtime, before work etc to meet? Did you take OP out w/friends, even though they KNEW you were still with your BS. How brazen does one get during an A?

I'm just hoping people came give me some examples so I can either cross them off the list, or check into it. I guess I just have no proof..but want to ensure I'm not missing something thats right under my nose.

I'm driving myself crazy w/snooping and finding nothing. '

I have even gotten to the point where I wish I could block the phone bill from my browser. Each new number makes me feel sick, faint, and I have to call to find out who it is.

I just dont want to look anymore..but it feels like it calls my name to "check check check everyday".

Just seems to me that a lot of these A's continue even after 1st D-day, and I'm wondering how they were carried out when the BS thought they were over and in Recovery.

Thx for your help.

Weekly update. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Sometimes I think this place is just my own personal journal. :0)

So, yes, another week passed and (F)WS home on time (early even) every night, no LB's, no proof of contact w/OP and more affection-hugs, kisses, calls- on a daily basis.

As I noted above, perhaps the A could be continuing behind my back, but I have no proof. I guess they could take it to a lunchtime A, but I dunno. {shrug}

Things have been going well for us, both. WS seems to be opening up even more to me, sharing his thoughts, albeit not R talk, but at least sharing work stories, telling me about his friends, etc, which is I belive, a start.

Still, no SF which is bugging me like crazy, but I've given up asking and just go with the flow. Our DD has been having a hard time sleeping in her bed at night, so has been in our room most nights...so its not like we've had a moment of privacy in the past few weeks. However, I AM going to bring this up soon...I'm just picking my time.

I still haven't pressed R issues much, but I AM watching like a hawk for any strange or different behavior from him.
So far, so good, meaning nothing to report.

I've continued to check the cell phone online, but its starting to drive me crazy. So, I have vowed to start cutting back, to once a week at most, and then hopefully, as WS continues transparency, coming home early, etc, I can cut it back further.

My only current anxiety comes from our upcoming trip. We have a family trip planned, one in which WS is coming for only a long weekend (due to work) and DD and I are staying w/my sister, for 4 extra days.

I'm out of my head w/stress that he will contact OW during this time. He swears he will not change any of his behaviors, and that he just be going to work and coming home as usual, but as I am not going to be there...I cant confirm. Plus, its scary giving him this "freedom". I am worried that "out of sight, out of mind" could occur.

But, I am also determined not to let it ruin my vacation. I already gave up one trip just after D-day-which I DO NOT regret at all-- but I cant live my life on "what ifs". I feel that he has to continue to earn trust, and if I do find out that he saw OW, or doesnt stay at our house overnight, then he'll prove himself as untrustworthy and will make me think twice about the R of our M.

I guess the thing that I have learned in the last month, is that I am strong, and that I do deserve more than I was getting from WS.
Yes, I am worried that the A could resume, but I am no longer AFRAID of it. I know, that should I need to end the M, that I did EVERYTHING I could do, loved unconditionally, studied, read, acted and LOVED him and that I deserve it back.
I did fine on my own this summer, and I'm going to be fine if alone later on.
I hope that our M continues to be strengthend, but I know that I wont accept the continued A and have told WS this, so should he decide to stray again, he wont be surprised at the result.

I believe, as others post here on this site, that WS need to be presented with the TRUTH and that truth is that THEY can be left, that the M is not a guarantee.
Its not what I want, but I am willing to give myself the gift of respect...and WS needs to respect me too.