After reading this - please don't give me the "she is having an affair" stuff. It has already been addressed and i have discovered nothing. This issue goes back a long time and the only possibility in my mind is an emotional affair with a faceless and nameless Mr. Perfect.


Wife & I were High School Sweethearts. Seperated during college. Began dating again after college. Dated 3 months - talking about marriage. Became pregnant. That was 12 years ago. Today is three kids (11, 9, & 8) later.

Two years ago we went through very rough times - wife wanted Divorce. Agreed to go to Retrovaille. Stuck it out but never worked on the marriage. Both of us just got lazy.

She told me several nights ago that she is done - wants out but is willing to stay in marriage for sake of children. Says she does not love me, never has loved me and knows she never will no matter what.

Recap of wifes words:
Want divorce.
Cant stand the thought of kissing me, having sex, touching me in any way. Eew, Eew, Eew, it grosses me out.
Loves me as a brother.
Is scared of what will happen.
Doesn't want anyone to know.
Wants me to still live there and help raise the kids.
Doesnt' want me there.
Doesnt want me coming home ever again.
Counseling is a great idea.
Counseling will never work.
Wants to love me.
Knows she will never love me.
Sorry for hurting me.
Doesn't ever want to marry again.
Scared of other women in her childrens lives.
Can't i just stay there and we can live in seperate bedrooms and raise our children.
Wants a divorce.
Counseling is a great idea.
Wants a divorce
Will go to counseling.
Wants a divorce.
Counseling is good.
Counseling will never work.

Have you read "surviving an affair"?

Have you done all the snooping you could possibly do? Phone records, keylogger, checking mileage, checking receipts for suspicious purchases, motels, gifts, calling cards, etc., have you hidden a voice activated recorder in her car, gone through pockets.

Can you account for all her time?

Have you considered hiring a PI?

Have you followed her to allegedly "harmless" outings without you?

Have you been in Plan A?

Have you counselled with the Harley's?

Oh, by the way, she's having an affair...

Best wishes,
SD

Agree with SD. She's having an affair. You just haven't dug deep enough yet.

KCM,

I strongly recommend that you believe every word she says. I mean it, every lousy word. Why do I recommend this?? Because if you do, you will be paralzed into not leaving. Look at the words you posted completely contradictory.

I could go on about what the words also mean, but I am with the others, the odds are high she is at least in an EA. If she really wanted out, she would be. If she really could not stand you, she would NOT love you like a brother.

So as long as you are paralyzed by her words, figure out what is really going on. Your bank is busted because you keep twitching everytime a word comes out of her mouth. And that is because each word is contradictory.

So why don't YOU make a plan for your life, factor in the kids, your career, her, the whole thing and come up with a plan. While doing that plan please do read all of the articles here.

The woman has issues, and my guess is that you are NOT her top issue...someone else is.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Well if she isn't having an A, then what do you attribute such assinine babble?

Which bank is busted? Why?

U r ready to quit your M because: _____________________?

The next question, is why are you here asking us?

L.

FOG talk. IMHO, she "thinks" she "might" want her freedom, but doesn't have the guts to end it and go her own way. It will make it easier if you do it. Sort of justifies everything in her fogged out mind.

Don't play this game with her. Become a snoop extraordinare and find out the truth, even if it is hard to take.

Who

Thinking outside the box here... forgive me if I sound off the wall:

Is it possible... that she IS having a fantasy affair? I mean, with no actual person, just the idea of a person? That would explain her FOG (I agree, her statements sound so familiar...) and also KCM's inability to find an OM in the picture.

Men do this with porn. Fantasy-induced fog but no actual real live woman. Just the perfect images, which make the men increasingly unhappy with their real but imperfect wives.

I have not really heard of a similar addiction for women (maybe soap operas or romance novels???) but I just wanted to raise the possibility. If men can do it, and millions of them do, is it possible that KCM's wife is under a similar influence? What do you think KCM? Maybe you ARE fighting against a faceless nameless Mr. Perfect?

God I hope not.

The affair was years ago. It ended badly. She feels either lacking in closure (yuck) or has not forgiven herself. Or, they are still in occasional lite contact.



Perhaps you should RV dialogue on some of these. Order them differently though.

With prayers,

I just can't take the constant tension and disrespectful behavior. I can't eloborate more tonight. I will do so in the morning. Plus i will give you some of my thoughts on what is going on.

If u r at your wit's end.....get some support. MC, parent, sibling, good friend, doctor? Make sure it is a safe source.

L.

Here are some extenuating issues, many of which my counselor has helped me to realize:

#1 - Drinking is a big issue. Wife does not drink every day but she doesn't miss many and when she does drink she drinks too much. Whereas i might drink two or three beers, two or three times a week - wife drinks a bottle of wine five to six nights a week. I weight 100 pounds more than her as well.
MOST but not all of her ranting comes after she's been drinking. In fact just this morning she was extremely nice to me after i told her what she'd said last night (which she did not remember).
I told her this morning that i was giving up drinking. I hope she see's this as an opportunity.

#2 - She has a TREMENDOUS amount of animosity built up towards me. When drinking she will recount how horrible it was that we had premarital sex, and how our current relationship is her punishment for that sin. She reminds me of the week after our marriage when she was sitting with my mother holding our new daughter. She started crying for no apparent reason, but says now that she remembers sitting next to my mother thinking "You have no idea why i'm crying but its because i don't love your son".
She also told me that she has always believed that i got her pregnant on purpose to trap her into marrying me. That all i've ever wanted was a family and i could care less about being in love with her.

#3 - She carries a huge mountain of remorse over her affair three years ago. She told me again this morning, as she does whenever we've spoken about it. She sobs and says it is the most horrible thing she's ever done in her life, with the exception of having two abortions - which she had in college from two one-night stands. This is a big deal for her. Sex has resulted in pregnancy five times. Twice she had abortions and our three children.
Wife is very remorseful on both the affair and the abortions. I try talking to her about it but she shuts down.

Only in the past three weeks has she agreed to go to counseling. I've told her that i think she needs to see a therapist on an individual basis because i can't help her with the issues, mostly because she doesn't want to hear it coming from me.

I am going to take a break now - but i will give you all the low down on my issues - childhood and adult. They are numerous.

God Bless and Merry Christmas (hope you aren't offended by that)

She's having an affair .. wether it be an EA, PA, FANTASY-A, or an affair with the drink .. it's happening. How am I sure? My wife said ALL of the same crap to me when she was having an affair.

Some similiar statements I've heard:
"Our marriage was a failure from the beginning.."
"The only good thing that came from our marriage was our child.."
"All you ever wanted from me was children.."
etc..etc..

She's re-writing history in her mind to support her justification. So she was pregnant? You didn't make her say "I do" at gun point.

Alcohol is the devils poison. I encourage you to go cold-sober. You'll need a clear head to save this sinking ship.

I'm not convinced there is an affair yet. She sound like she may be alcoholic. This state pushes and pulls you from 1 extereme to another, and little is thought to bettering herself for the good of famil and most of all herself. Throw post pardom depression in and you have a flaming cocktail! She needs to stop running from the issues through alcohol, and start facing her life sober.

This is key, THEN you can work on the relationship if she's willing. You stopping drinking would be great too, however you and or her may need to get into a program in order to deal with life after alcohol. Right now you are both probably spiritually sick with each other, and need to find away out of that way of thinking.

KCM,

Harley himself, states that he will not provide marriage counseling to someone that is addicted to something else. The addiction must be faced and overcome first. Why? I think it is clear that HER issues are being projected on to you. You cannot win in this situation. Until she addresses her issues and that means the alcohol, her affair, and yes her abortions, it is unlikely you can do much of anything but hang in there.

Get her to counseling, and make darned sure the counselor KNOWS about the alcohol.

Pleae think about this.

God Bless,

JL

After talking to my counselor i don't know what to think about the Alchohol. On the one hand she is not wanting to drink all the time (she only drinks in the evening). On the other hand it is more evenings than not. The most troubling part is the amount she drinks and then her not being able to remember conversations or events after that.
Plus the constant Partying and her always wanting to go out drinking, either with me or with her girlfriends.

Is this alchoholism? I honestly don't know but i definately think it is a serious problem.

Are there any alchoholics out there who could answer this?

Should i start another thread and ask that question?

Stay here with it. Yes I see alcoholic tendancies. I was a daily drinker at night only. No mornings (Unless it was weekends) only at night after work was complete. The amount is definately and issue as well as the frequency. I was then able to go all week w/ no drinks, then drank on weekends. If she can't remember what a conversation was the night before, she is in what is called a BLACKOUT. She's drinking to blackout to run from her feelings and forget. This is a classic sign of an alcoholic.

You see, it does not take a drop down drink 24/7 to be an alcoholic. The disease is progressive. If you have to control something, there is a problem. If she can have just 1 drink at night, and leave it alone each day, then she is a normal drinker. If she requires more after that first one, there is an issue.

My MC says I can't make any REAL progress in the relationship until I'm 6 mos-1 year in recovery. Recovery needs to be #1. AA can help with dealing with it. Plus most MC's won't treat until the patient is IN recovery somehow.

Good luck!

I told all of you i would expand on my issues:

I grew up in a house with two loving parents. They supported me in pretty much everything i did. BUT...

as far as role modeling goes... my mother pretty much does what my father asks (or tells) her to do. My father is VERY impatient and quick tempered. He does not like any kind of criticism, if he gets it he will lash out fast and hard. I grew up knowing that my mother never questioned anything he did or said, otherwise he would blow up and she would just drop it.

My father had both Playboy and Penthouse magazines laying around the house. He also had XXX rated video tapes. My brother and i did not even have to look for this stuff. He kept it out in fairly plain site. Once you caught site of it behind his recliner you knew exactly where it was. I grew up seeing pornography as my image of women from the time i was eleven years old. I remember seeing it before i was even aware of what anything did, having not had any talks and not yet seen the videos from school.

Porn has had a huge impact on my adult relationship with women. Until i had daughters i did not SEE women, i saw images from pornography. This carried over to my relationship with my wife. I had expectations that are so fundamentally flawed. I did not realize how bad or destructive it was. I have not used Pornography in a couple years, although I confess to having thoughts about it, like an addiction. I am shamed by my behavior. I am shamed because i now know the negative impact it has had on me and my wife. She deserved better and i did not give it to her.

Sometimes i think that my expectations and her seeing my addiction may have damaged us beyond repair. Other times i see her actions as telling me she wants a true and beautiful relationship with me, which is exactly what i want.

I am feeling melancholy today, if you couldn't tell.

Any thoughts, suggestions, comments, rants, etc.?

God Bless.

Our marriage counselor told us that "anything" you put ahead of your spouse could be considered "cheating". Even ultra serious hobbies such as fishing or golf, or perhaps shopping for the ladies.

One simple fact is true, you need to put your spouse #1 in your life, and anything short of that is "cheating" your spouse out of their rightful position in your life.

If you feel you still have a porn addiction, then you should seek counseling. If you are a recovering addict, then you should direct all your efforts into making your W the #1 priority in your life.

In my humble opinion, you need to stay in Plan A for a while longer, leaving your Taker on the shelf, and leaving your Giver in full throttle. Do all you can to fill your W's love bank, and be fully committed to this process.

This is not a project you can do 1/2 of or 75% of, you have to be wholly committed to saving your marriage. It will take all the strength and committment you have.

Best wishes,
SD

Maybe this is selfish of me BUT...

aren't i setting myself up for an even bigger heartbreak should she decide to end it regardless of my actions?

I have been in Plan A for a while. I've seen some response to it although i have also seen her taking steps toward a divorce. For example, she has been talking with many of her friends who've been through a divorce asking questions and "feeling them out". She's been doing this even though she has asked me REPEATEDLY not to tell anyone of our problems because if it does work out she doesn't want other people to judge us. When she talks about her divorced friends she says things like "courageous" and "she did it even thought everyone was telling her not to". When confronted with all the divorced people we know who either are having a horrible time or thier children are obviously having struggles she will say "but they had other issues before they got divorced, that's not the reason those kids act like that".

Basically it boils down to this:

When she talks about divorce - it is all positive and grass looks about as green as any grass she has ever seen.

When talking about staying together - wrong reasons, too much history, waste of time, etc.

Back to my original statement - aren't i setting myself up for an even bigger heartbreak should she decide to end it regardless of my actions?

If you really understand Harley's plan, then you will realize that the self-improvement you make, and the fact that you took advantage of everything available and made every effort to save your marriage, you will be much better prepared to move foreward in your life, married or not.

All her talk is fog babble. It's what they do. If she REALLY wanted a divorce, don't you think you'd have received papers by now. Stop listening to her words, they are meaningless, so long as she's in the fog. Watch her actions, there lies the truth.

Get your plan in place and work it, and stop worrying about what she says, or who she talks too. YOU take charge about your self improvement, and fill her EN's when you can, and do it relentlessly, expecting absolutely NOTHING, and tell me in a month it hasn't worked! Deal?

SD

Update -

W is at the Counselors as i type this. She came to me Tuesday morning and said she wanted to start right away. I gave her my appointment time for this week.

Tuesday night we had a problem: went out with some old high school friends. I had not had any beer in over a week. W of course drinks most nights (when the topic comes up she says it is her business and she will let me know if she thinks its a problem). Came home and to my surprise she was very receptive...
BUT...
i don't want to be too descriptive but basically she could have gotten pregnant. It was a very big deal to her.
Last night she asked me to sleep in the other room so it did not happen again. I don't know how long i will be sleeping in the other room.

Anyway...
at least she is at counseling. At least she was receptive the other night (it had been at least three months).
I took these as positive signs.

God Bless and Happy New Year.

KCM, it would appear that drinking and a very poor self-image are your wife's main problems. The drinking is a way to "escape" reality....and it leads to addiction. From the frequency and amount she drinks, I'd say that she probably IS an alcoholic already, but will refuse to admit it.

So your first problem is with the bottle. But it also sounds like she needs some intense psychological counseling regarding her self-esteem, self-image issues.

I take it that faith doesn't play much of a role in her life, so we'll not go into "faith based" helps at this time.

God bless.

I am starting a Bible Study class on Jan 9. She wants to go with me. I am trying to make faith a bigger part of my life. She seems to be interested.

QUESTION - given that she is going to counseling today. What do i do if she confesses another affair? After the affair of two years back i told myself i would divorce her if it happened again, no matter what.

Only YOU can make that decision. If there are kids in your family, perhaps what you told yourself before was something you "decided" while in the throes of a great deal of emotional turbulance. Those kinds of things should be decided with a calm mind, and spirit.

SD

well said. Thank you.

Does anyone know what to expect in terms of the Marriage Counseling thing? I like the guy i'm using. He is very faith based but i've heard horror stories from this site on MC's and the negative impact they've had. Any suggestions?

ASK them straight up if they've heard of Dr. Harley, Marriage Builders, and if not, you might want to look further. Nearly all advice given here is based on his principals.

Beware, as many MC are not pro-marriage, and their goal is to help you through an amicable divorce.

You'll know soon enough. But don't be afraid to search for a "better" one, if you have any doubts.

SD

If you like the guy you are using then stay with him. If not, then change. The thought around here is that most (not all) MC are not that great.

Yep, I had a MC that wanted to help me through divorce. I told her about this site and she had no idea who Dr H was. Not everyone in that field would though. I stopped going to her.


Like SD said - you will know if they are right for you.

M2L

Pray to God for guidance should that fear materialize.

Ask yourself the question about forgiveness and evalute where you think her heart is NOW, not then.

Ask yourself if you still love her "for better or for worse" and what your vows meant/mean to you regardless of circumstances.

God bless.

FH - You don't make this very easy. Quiting sounds a lot easier than that. JK.

I've given her the "I took a vow" thing recently. She was very upset by it. She told me that she would live up to the vow also but "i will never love you and i will never have sex with you again".

Of course Tuesday night she told me she loved me and the other thing i already talked about. SO maybe that was all Fog Babble.

You know how you can tell if it's FOG BABBLE???

Their lips are moving! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SD

rofl....NO, it's not easy, but neither is divorce. "Running" always seems like the easy way to deal with danger and unpleasantness, but you can never seem to run far enough to escape it, or other problems that get in the way.

Besides, God tells us that problems are a "way of life" for believers. It is not the problem, it is how we react to the problem and who we turn to for help that God is interested in. Consider this life our "proving ground" for the process of Sanctification and becoming more "Christ-like."

It is what it is.... and then there is our "everpresent help in time of pain and sorrow and trouble."




Ya, we've all heard this flip-flop sort of stuff in one form or another. btw....there WAS an affair, right? Do you think she might be just a l i t t l e messed up in the head right now??

Remember, if there is NOT love in the marriage, it is the fault of the husband, because God has commanded husbands to love their wives and placed the leadership responsibility for love in the marriage on the husband. You can choose to treat that command as a curse or as a blessing, but the responsibility remains regardless.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

God bless.

FH - the answer to your question "There WAS an affair, right?" - YES. 7/14/04 was d-Day. I was here on this site starting in August of 2004.

I did not have the courage to fully implement the Plan's of Dr. Harley. Instead I took the path of least resistance - conflict avoidance. Anything that would avoid the ugliness.

Worked out great, huh! What a wise decision by me!

This time around I do not think there is an affair. I think W's lifestyle has been the big issue. I enjoy being a husband and father. W enjoys being a mother. W has become immersed in the world of acting. She started out doing commercials locally. Then she got into some independent films from local people, which is how she met OM two years ago. After the A she kind of stopped with the acting thing until summer 2005 when a former high school friend who lives in LA came back to our town to film a movie about his childhood. This is a guy who most people would recognize. He's been on a TV show for years. W got a part in his film. Since then she's been DETERMINED to succeed at the acting thing. It is all she talks about.

She used to be very judgmental of mothers who worked all the time. She used to talk about how she was so grateful to be a SAHM. Now she works all the time and gets Babysitters constantly. The women she has befriended in this business are ALL divorced, not one single Happily Married person. W talks about how great they are and how courageous they are for leaving their H's even when everybody told them not to.

And the kicker to this whole thing is…
Our family budget pays for it. I make pretty good money, not great but pretty good. W works a lot but she doesn’t make as much as she spends. She probably covers 60% of the cost and our family budget picks up the rest. We’d be putting away an extra 10K a year if she’d quit this thing. HOWEVER, I don’t hate it, because it makes her so happy. She talks all day about what she learned.

I know this sounds like a situation ripe for another A, but I don’t think that’s what’s going on. I really think she’s got herself in a situation where she is questioning our life together and whether or not she really wants this life. In fact, that part I know. When she gets into her funk it is over some failure or setback in the acting field. She starts saying things like “maybe I should just quit and go back to being a SAHM”. She doesn’t say it as if it is the worst thing in history but she obviously does not want it.

For my part I want her to succeed. I want her to be happy. I am fearful that as soon as she does make it, she’ll dump my b**t and I will have paid for her “startup”. I will have enabled her to leave me and create a brand new life without us together as a family. The flip side is that I don’t want to be her excuse for failure. I don’t want to be he “reason” for not going after her dream. My ‘reason’ for sticking it out is because I love her, and part of love is wanting the other person to achieve their dream.

WOW this has gone on longer than I had originally intended. And I have NEVER said any of this to anyone before. This is definitely counselor stuff.

Any thoughts?

I need some suggestions here:

W and i talked this morning. It was very civil and we both explained how we felt. I asked her what her goals were for counseling to which she said, "i've pretty much made up my mind that i want a divorce. I just want the counselor to be able to tell me if i'm making a huge mistake. I don't want to regret my decision." She went on to explain her same old stuff: loves me like a brother, does not have any romantic feelings for me, our relationship has had so much hurt over the years that she just can't get past it, etc.

My question is this: W is a VERY headstrong person. Once she says that she has made up her mind... NO ONE can change it. Example, she made up her mind that she wanted to give herself bangs, for a couple weeks she would ask everyone, friends, family, etc. THEY ALL told her not to do it. Not one single person said "yes, you should", in fact everyone told her "no, don't do it". Guess what she does... gives herself bangs. And then Guess what... she hates them.

Part of me thinks i should just give her what she wants and let her see how it is. She keeps talking like the two of us are going to have this great friendship and that we will still do things together as a family. That the only difference will be that we live in seperate houses. Doesn't that sound completely insane?

Any thoughts?

The fog is so thick the fog horns are goin off!!!! Whether she is in an A or not.

IMHO she has no idea what she wants at this time. You need to get with a plan and start to work on it. Stop reacting every time she says something that's hurtful.

Get busy on you, until you get in control of your' emotions you are no good to her or your' M.

I'm sure this has all been said before but listen to those on here they really can help you, whatever the outcome, but only if you will take their advice and work on it.

KCM,

It sounds like an affair (Emotional, Physical) to me. Likely someone "in the business".

I know this, IF SHE CHOOSES to leave THIS LIFE she leaves without the kids, without the home, without the majority of the FAMILY's money, without my friendship, support, encouragement, without all that she one time wanted and no longer wants. IF she goes, let her go on her own. Be prepared to fight to the death in court for the kids. She has and is proving to be a terrible example of a mother and seriously looks as if she wants nothing to do with it and had rather believe that she can go and become the next Angelina Jolie or something.

A couple steps forward.

#1 - I have started getting over the mental hurdle which has always been my biggest issue: realizing that I have to commit myself to being Okay No Matter What. Realizing that even if i do all the things in Plan A, it might not work out.

I have struggled with this for a long time. I worry that i'm setting myself up for massive heartache. BUT...
over the long weekend i started thinking about my situation differently. Talking to the counselor (who gave me some positive thinking excersizes) i decided that i would focus on doing only those things which i could control. Then i would release any thoughts or actions which i knew would bring me no benefit whatsoever, or which put the focus on things i can't control.

#2 - I decided to just have fun. DO the things i like to do. Don't focus on the W's words. DO have fun with the kids and friends, and if W wants to come along for the ride she's more than welcome.

So far so good. I have my moments when i get upset thinking about the possible future, but i usually follow those thoughts with a "if that happens, i'll figure out a way to make the best of it"

As far as this week goes...
W is having a counseling session today.
I have a counseling session on Thursday.

We will see what the counselor wants us to do as far as starting the joint sessions. I suspect he will want to get started on that next week.

Thank you all for your words of encouragement. I know i have the strength inside me, i just don't want to have to use it.

God Bless.

KCM,

Ah finally you are getting it. You have just begun to realize that you can ONLY work on you. You are the only one that can make you happy. And further, these plans are for YOU, not your WW.

You will also come to realize that a happy, smiling, serene KCM will be a very good father, and attractive fellow, and yess perhaps even attractive to your W. But, really if you look at those traits they are about YOU and for YOU.

The plans here are to give the marriage the best chance of success, and interestingly they work best when done with the idea that you WILL SURVIVE. You WILL KNOW you have done all you can, and you also realize that you have a life beyond this marriage.

Congratulations, now get to work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

W had counselor appointment yesterday and I confess to harboring anger over her actions last night.

#1 - her behavior since her appt can only be described as fake. She is ULTRA polite and cheery every time she talks to me. So much so that I made the mistake of asking her why she was behaving that way. She responded that she was told to act like that by the counselor. I think he probably talked to her about letting go of anger and trying to be happier and see the good in things.

#2 - I got a note on my pillow (i sleep in our extra bedroom because she asked me to about a week ago), which said. Dear (KCM) I forgive you for taking advantage of me while in a "drunken situation" the other night. Thanks for letting me have a career.

The reason this is upsetting is: where is her responsibility in the situation from the other night. IF you don't remember, the two of us went out with old friends, we'd both been drinking and when we came home i put the moves on W. It did not go well because of birth control issues. Since then she has been asking me questions about how much i drank that night and then arguing with my answer. Apparently in her mind I "took advantage" of her because i was less intoxicated and therefore the responsible party.

While I understand that sex between the two of us has always been an issue. And i understand that she says she is not attracted to me and does not want to have sex with me. Why does that exonerate her of any responsibility for agreeing to the act? Where does she come up with the idea that i should be "forgiven" for trying to have sex with my wife?