OK, it's all out. H got a text message that I intercepted. He is in an active affair. He confessed that this woman is the same woman from all three affairs. She is an old girlfriend.

I kicked him out and DO NOT want him back. I have her cell number and first name and I need to figure out how to find out her last name and home phone, so I can expose to her husband. They have been together off an on for 13 years (plus a time when we were dating a broke up (22 years ago).

I have done intellius and am waiting for my report. But I am wondering if there is a way to find out right now!

Also, what do I do now to protect myself. Please look up my old post--homeschooling mom, 5 kids ages 6-17,

Thanks

Just calm down. Get the goods on her and expose to her H. You don't know her name?

if intellius comes up dry, I would find a PI and have him get the info for you. This usually isn't that costly and is easy enough to do.

And DON'T tell him you are planning on exposing the affair.

Sorry you found all of this out. I would calm down before I talk to her husband, but it is important to let him know the state of his marriage.

After finding the text message, telling him to leave, and getting a few answers, I have learned that last night--ON MY SON'S BIRTHDAY--H took 11yo son and friends to a movie. He said to them, hey what do you think about going in by youselves. They, of course, loved the idea, made them feel real grown up. So while our son was watching a movie on his birthday (which was suppose to be a special night out with dad), H was hanging' with his girlfriend!!!

How do I protect my kids from this crap??!!

This man has been cheating on me with the same woman for 13 years. I DO NOT want him back, and I don't think he wants to come back. I think he is relieved that he can move on.

My list of to-do's right now is:

change locks

call lawyer (visitation, finances, health insurance, retirement, life insurance, not being exposed to OW--anything else I need to address??)

exposure (his parents and siblings, my parents, a few close friends, close relatives, OWH (as soon as I get that info), a couple employees at work (H owns the company).

What else do I need to think about?

I can't believe I'm living this. He has stolen 25 years of my life! I have no love left for him at all.

Judging from your screen name, maybe you are having an AO and are not as set on terminating the M as this post seems to indicate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

What happened to him AFTER you booted him out. Is the OW a gold digger?

Secure your finances before making any life changing decisions. I know u r in pain. Seek a MC immediately so you can make planned decisions.

Read SAA & HNHN, take the EN questionnaire and then Call Steve H ASAP.


L.

I chose my screen name in April. It is now June. Last night, finding out he has been with the same woman repeatedly since before we were married, "loves her", and was "just biding his time til the kids were grown", has been lying to continue the affair, my hope for recovery is now gone.

I no longer want to recover this marriage. I will be changing my screen name, but would like to keep if for a day or two because some people may remember me and read this post.

But let me make it clear, as of last night, I am not moving in the direction of recovery.

Orchid,

It is almost 7 a.m. I just kicked him out last night. What I know about the other woman is that she is "married right now", has two kids ages 13 and 11 (same ages as 2 of mine). I think they may feel like soul mates. This was his first love--makes me gag! The question of whether either of these kids is his has crossed my mind. Also, he told he long ago (oh, so and so stopped by the shop and we spent some time catching up, blah, blah) that she told him she gave up a child for adoption. Now, I wonder if it was his!!!! Questions I will be asking today.

He packed a bag and left and said he would call today. I have packed most of his belongings into trash bags and when he calls am telling him to come get it ALL. He has to pick up our oldest from the airport this afternoon and bring him home from a camp he's been at all week.

In that case I would protect my finances first, call the lawyer second.

I'm really sorry you are hurting like this. You realize by now you deserve far better.

Yes, last night my whole perspective changed. He stole 24 years of my life. I deserved a man who loved me and wanted me. He is a lowlife in my book.

What does "securing my finances" mean? I am a stay at home homeschooling mom. I have no income. Right now his check is direct deposit into our joint account. I am going to the bank this morning to open my own account. What else??

Make sure he doesn't drain your joint account. It isn't right for him to do it but many people would anyway. If you open your own account, transfer the joint money into it - at least half. Talk to your lawyer about getting an order to freeze any other assets. For example, does he have any kind of pension or profit sharing plan?

At the end of the day, when it comes to D, it is all about the money. Call the lawyer quickly.

Do you have her last name? Do you know where she went to high school? college? If so, go to classmates.com- oh I hate that site <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But it comes in handy for this. Look her up and you may be able to get the info. You may at least be able to get her married name if you don't have it.

If that doesn't work and you think she has lived in the same town as you since she got married or you have an idea where she got married, you can check the county records- a lot of them have online searches.

You might also try putting her name in a google search.

I am really sorry you are in this situation.

I'm with the others-- with five children and no income of your own, its essential you get to an attorney who can advise you of your state's laws and get your financial situation in order PRONTO.

And as much as you hate to hear this: unless you are absolutely certain you can live on what you may receive in the divorce, you will be looking for a job and may have to rethink homeschooling. I do not think you could afford daycare while you work with the amount of children you would have to cover (I'm guessing at least two?) It bites that you may have to give up homeschooling (although you can augment the public school teaching on your own time) and one of the many reasons that being a betrayed spouse bites. Its screws up all of our plans, not just our future dreams with our spouse.

Begin setting up a plan immediately that covers all potential scenarios (you not having to work & being able to homeschool, having to work full or part-time and sending the kids to public school). Just having this will help to focus and keep from panicking. Check out the job market in your area (temp places are a great place to start and often pay more than minimum wage).

RH,

I'found out the name of OW with a reverse phone lookup thru Intellius as you did, but there was little info out there except her name, age and address. Since she was in another state, I began using every search engine and combo I could find. I eventually found out through her hometown paper (which was on-line) that she was divorced, filed bankruptcy, has grandkids etc. It was alot cheaper than a PI, but you do need the last name. Intellilus will send an immediate report to your email if you so desire. That's what I did and had it in 5 minutes....

Last night I had a talk with each of my kids ages, 17, 13, 11, 8, and 6. It broke my heart having to break theirs. Their world came crashing. They each handled it differently, but devestatingly.

I told the younger two that although mommy got married forever, daddy did not. That he has decided to leave. That we both love them very much and that this has nothing to do with our feelings for them. (This was very hard for me to say, because in my heart, I think a father leaving DOES say somthing about his priorities and feeling about his children--some men would NEVER leave)

I told my older three a more complete version. They heard the above and also heard that daddy has a girlfriend--a girlfriend he has had off and on for years. I struggled with how much to tell them, but in the end, decided they have a right to know and he has the consequence of them knowing his ugly little secret.

My only daughter is so angry. My two little ones have been crying off and on. My 11yo was totally silent and somber. My 17 yo is trying to help the younger ones and seems like it isn't effecting him (I know that he is).

He just came to pick them up for the day. It broke my to watch them go through what they did this morning, tell me they didn't want to go with daddy, and then go running to him so happy to see him. I was glad they felt happy and wanted to go once he got here, but so angry that he didn't get to see the heartache I saw this morning.

And then to watch them drive away..... I am SO SAD.

recoveryhopeful,

I am a SAHM, seven kids, homeschooled all of them. Two are my bio-kids--the other five are DH's bios now my stepkids. We have homeschooled all kids through high school, then they take the GED class at the local community college when they are 17yo and they're off to college with a piece of paper that says they know something (heehee <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />).

"Secure your finances" means that if you have been living off DH's income that he will mostly likely, very quickly change his direct deposit to an account that is "his" that he opens up. So, first thing Monday morning, go cash a check for most of the amount in the checking account, and put in enough just to cover what auto-pays may be coming out this week. Next, go directly to an attorney's office if you can afford it--to the self-help family law area if you can't--and file a motion for a temporary hearing and freezing all assets. If you go the self-help route, there are folks at the family law area who will give you the right forms (a packet usually costing $10 or so) and after you fill them out, they will look them over for you to be sure they are filled out correctly. Usually/often you can schedule the date of the temporary hearing right on the spot--so at least you'll know WHEN the temp. hearing will be.

That should be ASAP--Monday morning 8am!! Bank first--courthouse or lawyer second. Let him live off the OW for a while! RRRRRRRR!!!

With the cash that you have withdrawn from the bank, you put exactly half of it in an envelope or something in case he does the "How will I live" thing...and then you can in all good conscience give him his half, and hopefully the temporary hearing will be before the next paycheck and the courts will direct him how much to pay and when. That way, it's not YOU being a b*tch but the court enforcing what the laws of your state say is reasonable for him to give you for SAH, 25 years of M, and 5 kids!! (It will be a lot more than he thinks!!!) BTW, if he doesn't pull the "How will I live" keep that cash aside and don't use it except for dire emergency such as...it's been two months and he hasn't paid you a cent. Then, keep track of how much you use and why.

When you're back from the bank and the courthouse, call all of your creditors (mortgage, phone, electricity, heat, cable, credit cards, loans, etc.) and find out EXACTLY where you are and what the balances are. I say this because when my exH left, I had no job and kids to feed and after calling around I discovered our mortgage was 3 months behind!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Informed is better than not knowing...so call. Then, explain to them exactly what is happening and ask if they have options or programs that could help you in this situation. You see, RH, creditors WANT to help you pay your bill, so lots/most of them will work with you--my mortgage company, for example, had a plan where I could skip one payment and add it to the end of my loan, I could pay half the second month, and then pay the full amount plus the balance of the "half" divided over twelve months (so mortgage+ a little to regain that "half")...and by then I had a job and could do it!! Some other creditors did stuff like even-billing (one amount every month), etc.

When you do this, you will know how much you need to have coming in every month in order to "break even."

Finally, this last one is a toughy, but you'll probably need to do it. Swallow your pride and go down and apply for foodstamps...and claim "head of household" and all five kids. I know, I know! It's embarrassing and you feel crummy having to live off of someone else's money--but at least your kids will be FED! And if your WH is a complete jerk and postpones court and the house goes into foreclosure, you can move and survive...as long as the kids are fed. It's one less worry off your shoulders, and frankly, it's what the foodstamps program is really MEANT for--the faithful, hardworking mom who suddenly has EVERYTHING dumped on her all at once!!! So Tuesday, swallow your pride and go apply, as it takes a week or more to qualify.

Whew--that's enough!! After that, take a bubble bath and relax. You did it!!!

Your faithful friend,



CJ

Just received info from Intellius today that the report is unavailable and so the have refunded my money.

I will try to locate a PI. All I have is her cell number and first name.

Thank you for responding. I did some exposing today and full support from those that I talked with. One person has confronted H and another will soon. But the response from H when confronted was pretty much that he isn't changing his mind (which I figured out already).

I got a referral to a good lawyer, who called me last night. I explained my situation and his assistant will call this morning to schedule me in this week. H is pushing for quick disolusion. I told lawyer that I wasn't sure I was going to give him a quick disolusion. He said he doesn't recommend that because usually they are hiding something when that's what they push. I think I am going separation for a while.

Lawyer said not to touch our checking account yet. And we have no debt except a relatively low mortgage. My H has been very smart with our money and we have been working toward the goal of being debt free. So, the only monthly bills are mortgage, utilities, food, gas, and provisional needs. We both have very good credit, and that is important to H, so he will continue to pay mortgage. We are never late on bills, so everything is up to date.

I don't want to royally p*ss him off yet. I want him to keep paying and agree to what I want in the separation.

I have changed the locks and he now knows that because he has hired someone to finish the home remodeling that he was working on (he's very handy around the house). They met here last night while we were gone and I told him I would have to leave the back door unlocked for him because he can't get in anymore. He didn't comment.

My lawyer's office just called. I will see him today at noon. I still feel like I'm in a nightmare that I can't wake up from. I want my old life back...happy, in love, growing old together...I can't have it back...that SOB stole 24 years of my life.

Recoverydoubtful, (changed your log on name)

""He said he doesn't recommend that because usually they are hiding something when that's what they push.""

If your WH owns his own business, and if you have no clue as to the books or financial sitch of that business, then chances are very good that the boy has been squirreling away cash for a while!

Specially if he was "enduring" your company until the kids were grown. Which sounds like he was planning to split, so needed to stockpile $$$ for the split.

I WONDER IF YOU COULD GET LIKE A RESTRAINING ORDER ON HIS BUSINESS BOOKS UNTIL A COMPLETE AUDIT ON THE BUSINESS IS COMPLETED?

Of course, THAT would really pi$$$$$ him off. But it might need to be done sooner rather than later.

You said OM was an old girlfriend? Like from High School?
Check out the year books.

Stay strong for the kids.

kirk

My visit with the lawyer was quite emotional. I was so angry at myself for crying through the ENTIRE meeting. My H called shortly before I left to see the lawyer. In the conversation I mentioned that I was considering a separation for a while. His response was that he did not want that and would not agree to it. It slipped that he had checked into it a few years back and it is not what he wanted. SOOOO....A FEW YEARS BACK!!!! He's been this loving, wonderful H for 19 years, and behind my back has been checking into a separation. I recall a few years back he revamped the way his businesses were set up--NOW I know why! Last year he moved us from a home we built 5 years before and downsized to reduce debt. I thought we had this common goal to be debt free...blah, blah, blah. Now it is quite apparent he needed to make the move to afford to leave one day. The picture is becoming clearer, and clearer for me. And now when I look at him...I feel disgust. No love. Not even a "yeah, but he's a great dad." He is a liar, cheater, manipulator, con, fraud who is self-absorbed, self-centered, egotistical, deceitful, and just plain stupid to lose the best thing he ever had!

I realized today that he was a better man BECAUSE of me. He was respected, honored, loved, adored but my children and our friends BECAUSE of me. As he leaves our family, he is destroying his reputation and losing the respect of all those that he longs to be respected by. I also realized today, that I will be a better woman WITHOUT him. I deserve to be loved passionately by someone who longs to be with me forever. I am just totally amazed at how he could APPEAR to be the most wonderful husband by EVERYONE and really be this monster. He seemed so convicted in his beliefs, and leader in our family, church and community. Oh how ugly and frightening it is to know the truth. But the truth does set you free.

I am sad to lose what I believed I had, and sadder to realize I never had it to begin with.

I will fight for my children and for myself. He will provide as he has promised, or he will have the battle he never saw coming. He has continued to provide financially for us, but I do not trust him AT ALL and will do everything in my power to force him to provide to the full extent. Whatever money is hiding WILL come out!

I grieved for 2 solid days this week and there is nothing left for him. I grieve for my children though. My 8 yos is raging daily for hours. I will contact my counselor tomorrow to see about getting my son in right away. He has always been my most sensitive and insecure, and he shows it by pushing you away and being angry.

I have a question for all of you. Is there a way to keep the other woman from being around your children. My lawyer said that there really isn't anything I can do unless she is unfit or dangerous. I DON'T WANT HER NEAR MY CHILDREN FOR AS LONG AS I CAN MAKE THAT HAPPEN. Any advice? I am in Ohio.

The OW is dangerous but maybe not in the legal sense. Do a background check and see what you can find. Hire a PI if needed but try the on-line searches 1st.

L.

Changing my username. I have no hope OR DESIRE for recovery anymore. So, now I'll be sexymamabear

SMB,

Does that mean you are dead set on divorce? No question?

Jo

Absolutely. How can I be otherwise? He's had an affair off and on for at least 13 years with the same woman, who happens to be an x-GF from before me (I was his GF at age 18).

I wish it could be different. But this, I can never get over. I am sorry it isn't different for my kids, and for me. We all deserved sooooo much more. He didn't deserve us!

Orchid,

I can't get her last name. All I have is her first name (nickname) and her cell number, which I think she just changed. Intellius couldn't find any info and refunded my money. I am considering a PI and thought I would ask my lawyer.

2 months from D-day, right? Understandably, you seem pretty emotional. Any consideration to wait a bit before making such an important decision.

Don't get me wrong, you have a perfect justifiable right to divorce his cheatin [censored]. I'm just checking on your emotional-thermometer.

Jo

I was totally committed to this marriage from day 1. And when I thought there were three different women over 13 years, I was still committed. I loved him with my entire heart and soul and held nothing back.

But when I found out that he has been emotionally involved with the same woman basically my ENTIRE marriage, and off and on physically involved, I realized the man I love does not exsist. If you knew us, you would understand the depth of deception that has taken place. EVERYONE that knows us is blown away. He truly appeared to be totally in love with me. It seemed as if we were doing everything right. This is more than just he was tempted, or the circumstances were right, or I wasn't meeting his needs...this is a HUGE character deficit. I am actually frightened when I consider just how good he was at portraying his perfect image. I keep wondering what psychological disorder can allow someone to live like that for so many years.

I can't go back. As much as I wish I could. I spent 2 months thinking we were working on things. I went through the shock, the betrayal, the anger (and yeah, I know there's more to come), and I was still in love with him and wanted him and had even begun to feel forgiveness at times. I deserved SO MUCH MORE and cannot feel anything but disgust now toward him. If I could, I would prevent him from even seeing the kids. They love the man he portrayed and I fear his ability to manipulate, control, lie, deceive, and pretend with them. I don't fear for their safety, but at the same time, I realize I truly don't know what this man is capable of.

My grief right now is for never having the love I deserved and the love I thought I had and for the agony my children are experiencing. I am trying to process that what I thought was God's incredible blessing of a happy marriage and a healthy family, never was. This is my emotional struggle. My feelings for my husband are dead.

I admit I miss being hugged and kissed and physically loved, but even he cannot provide that for me now even if he wanted to. He could never make me feel that way again.

He said he was staying around for the kids and it was up to me when he left. I could never live with him again and believe I had his heart...and I could never live with a man that I knew couldn't (or wouldn't) give me his heart.

I am sorry for your pain. I hope you stick to your guns and NEVER give one moments consideration to taking this dirtbag back. He is going to get raped in court...your attorney will likely recommnend a forensic accountant to get to the bottom of any finances your H has been hiding.
I feel bad for your kids...but I strongly believe that all of your lives will be so much better without this type of deception. Frankly, the way your H has handled this... he deserves to have his head handed to him on a rusty platter.
Stay strong and determined.

MEDC

Thanks MEDC.

What is a forensic accountant??

an accountant that is trained to find the hidden dollars... very commonly used by the IRS and divorce attorneys.

If your children are seeing a counselor and the counselor feels that it is in the children's best interest not to be exposed to the OW, you may be able get something done legally.
I know that some Divorce Agreements have had stipulations that say no other relationships will be exposed to the children for X amount of time....

We are doing Plan D, and no looking back allowed! OK maybe just enough looking back to see my blind spots and to see just how deceptive he has been for years.

Plan B sounds so wonderful in the sense that there is no contact with the WH. Our family is involved in martial arts and we are at the school M, T, TH, and S. He is there, too, and struts around like Mr. Black Belt Know-It-All. I have full support from those at the school, but he is one of the instructors in his class, but acts like he is one of the instructors in my kids class, too (he doesn't even study their art).

And with 5 kids, I don't see how I can protect myself emotionally from him. Every time I hear his voice, I get messed up emotionally. Not like, "Oh, I wish we could be together again." Just that the pain comes rushing back.

He called last night to "tuck the kids in". We always prayed for them together and gave them hugs and kisses to tuck them in. I guess it is good for the kids to have him call, but IT AIN'T GOOD FOR ME!!! I feel the rage coming up when I hear him talking to them and when I see their sweet smiles at the sound of his voice. He doesn't deserve these wonderful kids. Then he starts talking about the great weekend he has planned with them---my first weekend without them. I hate him for making this my life. I didn't choose this, but I'm stuck with it because of him. Stuck with not having my children because he gets to take them on their "excursions" every other weekend. Stuck with not having them on certain holidays, too, I suppose. I cannot believe this!!!!

How do I stay sane through this? I just want to move far away and not have him around. (I won't, but part of me really wishes for it.) I have so much support around here for me and for my children that I know it is best to stay local--2 churches, 2 homeschool support groups, my parents, the karate school, and so many friends in our corner. It is just so hard accepting that this is now my reality.

Plan B will help with those feelings. Try it. Even if it is limited. Some plan B has boundaries due to special circumstances (i.e. kids, business, etc.).

take care,
L.

SMB,

I am so sorry that you are going through this. Me too. Has the OW left her husband? I wonder if she will when the rubber hits the road... Wouldn't that be the ultimate punishment for your H if she decides to stay with her H??

I know that it isn't any comfort now, but think of what their lives will be like if they do end up together. Your H will have the stress of supporting your children while likely living with hers. I don't know your H financial situation, but will he be able to keep her in the lifestyle that she might be accustomed to while also supporting another family? And for her, she is going to have to deal with the fact that there is another family of 5 suddenly in her life. Possibly 7 teenagers to deal with? Would destroy any woman if you ask me. I just don't see that siutation working out long term once the reality of living together daily hits them with a 2x4. Trust me, you will have the last laugh someday.

And you are a good person, so you will eventually find someone who will cherish you and your children. A friend of mine married a DW with 5 children, and they are so happy. He is wonderful. Didn't adopt her children, but helped raise them, is extremely close to them, they now have grandchildren that they dote on etc... They never had children of their own, but he says that hers are so wonderful that he didn't need anymore. They've been married at least 25 years, maybe more, and just bought a retirement home since the last kid moved out....

You will come out ahead, I know you will...

Orchid,

Can you give me an example of what that would look like?

I do not even acknowledge him when he is around at the karate school (and at the karate awards dinner we had Saturday night). To me, he is dead. I have nothing to say to him and cannot stand looking at him. I just want to claw his eyes out.

Now, when he picks up the kids, I guess I'll have to talk a little.

Thank you Knitgirl. I've been reading some of your story as well.

From my understanding, she is separated and close to divorce. I cringe at the thought that my kids will have her in their lives. It's bad enough that they have him in their lives. Two long-term liars, cheaters, deceivers, manipulators, who are both adult-children-of-alcoholics. My H's been sober since he was 17, but by these actions, who would believe it!!! I feel like he has destroyed my heart to the point that I can never have a healthy relationship.

A close friend keeps telling me that when the dust settles, God's going to bless my socks off with a man who actually deserves my devotion, commitment, and love. But that thought is beyond my comprehension. To actually TRUST after being married for 19 years (plus dating for 4) to a man who has been SO GOOD at deceiving me. How could I EVER believe any man????

In addition to a forensci accountant, once you find out the OW's name, you might also want to do a property search on her. If your WH is trying to hide assets, he may have invested cash in assets and put them in her name or another trusted person's name. I/m sure that a forensic accountant should be able to determine what money is missing, and if there is, that is likely what your WH did.

THIS is exactly why that relationship will NEVER last long term.

It will be hard to trust again, but going forward we will be more cautious and know what to look for. After 34 years of marriage, I may not look for anything, but you are still young and have a great future with or without a male companion....

(((((sexymamabear))))

Much too early to be thinking about trusting any man. Blind trust, which is what it sounds like you're are referring to, is gone forever. What can replace it is earned trust.

AS God has "earned" our trust and "proven" He is trustworthy in providing Christ for us while we were totally unworthy of any consideration on His part, so too will we place our trust in Him, in His promise of Romans 8:28,29, when the emotional onlslaught has passed.

Remember, Jesus KNOWS the emotional impact. This not some "esoteric" mumbo-jumbo of some "imaginary god." Jesus felt the extreme emotional impact in the Garden of Gethsemene, and God KNOWS how tough this time is on us.

Remember, too, as things calm down a little for you, that God has made a very practical promise to you as a believer, "I CAN do all things through him (Christ) who gives me (His omnipotent) strength." That is God's promise to YOU in Philippians 4:13. Hold onto it firmly as the seas of your life are currently raging.

God bless.

I think God already blessed your socks off with those 5 precious children.

When I feel sorry for myself and the state of my marriage, I just look at my boys and realize they are miracles... they make my pain meaningful.

I'm following your story and thinking of you. Don't worry about other men yet. First things first. As several people have already said, I think Plan B is appropriate for you.

Best wishes,
~Saturn

Thank you SR and FH. And please know, I am not seeking any men and can't imagine ever wanting to. (But I also know that my God is a awesome God who can do miraculous things). I married for life and will struggle with the idea of that not being the case, even under these circumstances of having a loser for a husband.

And you are right, SR, I am blessed beyond belief in my children.

SMB,

I've been reading your story and feel so, so, sad for you and your children. As a FWW, I can tell you that once he moves in with OW the fantasy bubble will burst and he will want his family back. Be prepared... whether it be two months or two years from the time he moves out, it WILL happen.

If your H and OW were such "soulmates" and meant to be together, why didn't they do the right thing and divorce at the start? It's NOT because of the kids. It's because they are both emotionally underdeveloped, [email]chicken@#@$[/email] dreamers whose realities will come crashing down once they lose everything that's real and beautiful in their lives. It scares me that your H seems so complacent and nonchelant about all of this. Does he seem remorseful at ALL?

I'm so sorry for all you are going through. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

KM

No remorse, really. He said he was sorry that he hurt me. I asked if he was sorry that he was with her...he said no. To me, that just means he's sorry it all came out without him planning it to come out. Not that he sees this as sin that needs repented of.

I was married for 18 years.
when my WxH first left (which was 4 years ago yesterday) he made the comment that "this is not the first A he had" in his mind - his multiple A's were proof that he should leave me. After all, if I had been a good enough W for him, then he would never have needed to stray.

it takes time to get over stuff like that. I believed his crap at first. after all, he had someone to go home to at night! and I didn't. So that must mean that he was a better partner than me. I would cry out to God every night. WHY! Why did he get to run off and have this happy life - while I was lonely. I was left with a house that needed multiple repairs - while the OW had MY H to help her around her house. She was a liar, a cheat. she left her H and took their 2 kids. But SHE had a man to come home to at night, MY H, while I had no one. That was not fair.

then someone told me: my WxH was enjoying his sin for a season. But that was it. Just a season. And let me tell you that it has turned out to be true.

One red flag I see for you - your comment that your WH struts around the school like he is all that. I think that is a sign of someone to stay away from. In the future, I would stay away from men like that. My Ex did that too. And many times he made little "jokes" about what a great H he was. he used to talk about single women from work, and how he felt sorry for them becuase they couldn't find a man. Many times I felt like he wished he could "save" them from being alone. He was always trying to set up blind dates for other people. I now realize he was probably also offering himself in that dating pool - just to offer his physical favors - to help out these poor women.

When he first left - he strutted even more. New clothes, grew a goatee, wore sun glasse all the time.

I felt like the frumpy, used up old house wife.

and just like you - it hurt my heart to hear his voice. Even when I clearly did not want him back. I mourned for the family I thought we had. the first time he took my boys for the weekend - I fell apart.

But that all passed pretty quickly.

I remeber a turningg point - we had to attend a parenting class. I had not seen him for a couple of week. I walked into the class, and there he sat unshaven, wrinkled clothes, bags under his eyes. I was shocked. "Are you ok? Are you sick?" he said he was just tired. From then on - I didn't see him strut so much.and after that - I only felt pity for him. No more anger. no more hurt. Just pity. He had really screwed up his life - and at that point he still would not repent.

Reality will kick in for your WH. he will be broke. For a very long time. child support will kill him. And all of these nice little excursions with the kids will add up.right now, he figures that the only way to make the kids happy, is by spedning money on them. But it won't last. Then what? He will probably stop taking them every other weekend. Or he will take them - but they won't go anywhere.And they will get into sibling fights - and drive him crazy.

He has enjoyed a fairly calm, safe, reliable life these past 19 years. But that is all falling apart. and I do not know how they ever get that back.

My Ex's OW dumped him after about a year. she was supposed to be his soul mate - his one true love. He said that God brought her into his life to make him happy. he wasn't supposed to marry me - he was supposed to wait for her.

But...she dumped him anyway.

And his life is still a mess - 4 years later. he ended up with OW#2 (she was married when they met, but left her H for him). they both work two jobs, and rarely go anywhere together. he goes fishing, camping, hunting, almost every weekend, but rarely does she go. Not signs of a loving M.

Meanwhile, I spent my time reading my bible, joing bible studies, and surrounding myself with Godly women. People I wanted to learn from. I listened to worship music at home, and my boys and I made a nice life for oursleves. In the midst of all this - the Lord brought a Godly man into my life. A genuine christian. a man who LIKES to spend time with ME! we go to the grocery store together. We travel, we visit with friends. We entertain at our house. He really, really likes spending time with me.

You will be fine. Hang in there. Read a lot of good books. Join Bible studies. Build yourself up as much as possilbe. You are NOT ready to date, but some day, you will be. So start working on building yourself up, to be the best Mom, and friend, and woman, that you can be. Because YOU are building a foundation for a LIFETIME of happiness - not just a season of sin.

WOF5,

Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. They "hit the spot" as I am crying.

I have read my Bible more this week than I have in a long time. I keep going to Psalms and find so much for me there.

I spent the afternoon with ladies from our church (all of who are my closest friends). Every Tuesday we have Pool and Pray. The kids swim and we pray and fellowship. This is a tight group of ladies who are REALLY there for you when you need them. We have had an outpouring of support from our Christian family, and I know they will see us through.

So many people have said the same thing about my H as you, about the misery that lies ahead. Right now it is hard for me to believe. It seems he is quite happy just visiting his family and going about whatever he wants to do with his time. And he is relieved the truth is out. I hope one day it hits him like a ton of bricks, and I hope I get to SEE it hit him. But I'm not holding my breath. I guess what I really should hope for is that one day it won't matter to me whether he gets hit like a ton of bricks.

My pastor told me today that even with all the pain I am suffering, he would rather be me than my H because H is obviously not right with the Lord and the emotional turmoil he will one day suffer will be tremendous, but that I will get through this season and go on to live a joyful life.

You may not be there the day that ton of bricks hits him - but you will see the toll it takes on him over time.

I fully agree with your pastor - he sounds wise.

Someone also told me that the day would come, when I would look back on all of this, and I would say that it was worth it.

and I can honestly say that it is true - I am grateful to be where I am today. I am not glad to be from a broken marriage - my children from a broken home. I would not choose to have my H cheat. BUT I am glad that I have reached a much greater spiritual maturity. and I am glad that my R with my boys is strong. If I had to walk through the valley in order to get here - then so be it. I would not want to go back to the life I had before.

My Ex would occasionally go to church - but not always. And I never felt like he had a strong faith. He would never raise his hands when he was singing a great worship song. he never would have gone to a friends house just to pray with them. But now I am in a life where I am free to raise my hands in church when the mood hits me! And I belong to a group of friends who get togther often just to pray for our families. How Awesome is that!

I can not say there was one big day where my Ex finally had an Aha moment and fell to his knees to apologize. It was gradual. she kicked him out, but they were still dating. Then they were on a break. then they were no longer speaking to each other, and he was dating lots of women from the internet.
He did try to throw me into his dating pool for awhile. I told him that I would consider reconciliation if he would get counseling, quit talking to other women, and agree to go to christian counseling with me. At first he agreed - but he never followed through. finally I asked if he was going to quit talking to all of the women he met on the internet, since he was supposedly interested in reconciling with me. That is when he said "I can't quit talking to these other women - I have to keep all of my options open." to which I said "no problem, just take me off your list of options".

God bless you!

I can echo what womanoffaith5 is saying. I am at a point where I have such contentment. My kids are doing well, even though their dad is making little effort to contact them (he lives about 60 miles away). We went through a hard time together (after my XH left, I was diagnosed with cancer and had 6 months of chemo). Things didn't change with my now XH, but things were changing for us.

Someone in my Divorce Care group said that God never waste our pain. I can see that is true. Not only did God use that time to make us a family-without my XH-but He used it to grow my faith, my prayer life, and cultivate a patient spirit.

I don't need to know what God is doing in my XH's life now. I completely trust that God is in control and doing things that will help bring my XH back into relationship with God. And I am content to NOT be part of that equation.

Although I wouldn't wish my experience on anyone, I am so glad that I went through it, because I am so much closer to God because of it. The best illustration that always comes to mind is from one of the Narnia books, when the children go back to Narnia the second time. The girls run up to Aslan and put their arms around him. One of them exclaims "Aslan, you've gotten bigger!" and he replies, "No children, you've gotten older." I feel that way about God. This experience has grown me in ways I never imagined, and because of it, God has gotten "bigger".

Can someone tell me how to link my original post (back when I thought we were working to heal our marriage) into this one?

Also, no one has offered examples of how a "Plan B" letter would work for our Plan D, just to protect myself emotionally. I would love to hear what boundaries I can set? He calls the kids sometimes at night to "tuck them in", and it just sends my emotions reeling. Also, he comes early to the karate school to seem them during their class. I don't want him around during the week--really don't want him around at all--I can put our pieces back together--don't need the liar, cheater, manipulator, controller in their lives but I don't get to make that happen...boohoo!

I am not sure how to help with a Plan B letter for your plan D.

One of the things that a Plan B letter says is “I love you, and I want to work on our M, but first you need to get rid of the OW”.
I doesn’t sound like you are interested in that sort of message.

If I am wrong – if you do want to write a letter that says you would take him back after he gets rid of the OW - then please call out for help again with your plan B.

What I think you are really asking for help with is the boundaries of your relationship during, and after, your D. please, refresh my memory, where are you at with the legal filing?

For me – my attorney was very thorough, and she added a lot of boundaries for me. Stuff that she said was standard in a parenting plan, like “WxH will not come up to the house to pick up the kids. WxH will stay in the outside, and the children will come out to him. When WxH drops the kids off at the end of his visitation, he will not walk with them up to the door. He will allow them to walk by themselves, and then he will leave”.
At the time – it seemed a little harsh, but I figured it was better to get the boundaries in writing, and then I could make adjustments later if I wanted to. So if you have not all ready asked an attorney for help with the parenting plan, please start there. Also – my attorney knew how to write up the holidays and things like that. My plan specifically says that he during Christmas break, WxH is allowed to have the kids from 5pm on the last day of school, until 5pm Christmas eve. (that is something I insisted on – there is no trading Christmas every other year. I told WxH that I would have my boys with me, on Christmas morning, EVERY year. That it was not my fault he was leaving – and I would not budge on that issue. He agreed)

About the Karate school – can you find a place to sit where you will not have to see him? The turmoil you feel now, will not last. It will lessen with time, and eventually go away. I do not see any way to tell him that he can’t come around there anymore. I had a similar situation – my oldest plays a lot of sports, and my Ex started bringing his OW to his events right away. So I would sit in the stands, surrounded by friends, in an area where I could not see where they were sitting. And in time, I didn’t care where they were sitting any longer. Do you have a couple of friends who can surround you at the karate school for now?

Calling at night to tuck them in: Perhaps you can arrange a time that he will do it each night, so that when the phone rings, you know it is him, and the kids answer. Something like: Please call at 9:00pm each night to speak to the kids. That way we are all prepared, and you will cause the least amount of disruption.
I remember telling my WxH “My home is my sanctuary. I need to make this a safe place for me. A place where I can heal. Please respect that by not invading my space”

You can not stop him from calling them – but you can insist on a consistent time each night. In reality – most of this will likely go away. The WH tries to look like super Dad for awhile, but it is hard to keep up with.

I would encourage to not appear angry, or bitter towards your WH. Remind him that you are hurting, and doing whatever you need to do to heal. It will be far easier for you to negotiate you boundaries with him, if he recognizes that you are still healing from your pain. Otherwise he will just think you are a bitter, angry woman, out to hurt him. And he will fight you.

WOF5,

You are right. I do not want to give a letter about loving him and wanting our marriage back. I want to set boundaries.

As far as the karate school, I am surrounded by friends. Everyone there is in full support of me and my children,and are all struggling with his actions and attitude. It is a school based on Christian principles, and many of the leaders there are in turmoil about how to handle this situation since there is no remorse on my H's part.

I guess that setting up a certain time to call for bed is a good idea, as much as I would prefer him to get lost!

It is very hard to consider him an important influence in my children's lives with all that has come out. I realize they love and need him, I just wish he would fall off the face of the earth and I could pick up the pieces of their hearts and we could move on without him. Wishful thinking, for sure.

Not appearing angry is impossible for me right now. I cannot even acknowledge his presence when he is in the same place as me. To me, he is dead, because the man I married is dead. He is a stranger that I do not know and don't want to know. I realize I need to get through this for my children's sake.

Yesterday when I was at a prayer meeting with ladies from church, the devotion was on God's grace being sufficient, but that it comes AT THE MOMENT WE NEED IT. So last night, when he was on the phone with them, I was feeling so much rage. Then I closed my eyes and started praying, "Your grace is sufficient" over and over. And a peace started to come. When I opened my eyes, I was back to the rage, so I closed my eyes until the call was over.

His Grace IS sufficient for you! Good for you!

This sounds like you anger faze. It is ok to go through an angry time – as long as you keep going through it, and don’t stop there.

You may want to try reading Beth Moore’s book “Get out of That Pit” (or something like that). I am reading it right now, and like it a lot.

The real key for you right now – is to not dwell on your anger. You have every right to be angry, but it won’t do you any good at all. And if you blow up at him, call him names, make a scene, etc, he will just throw that all back in your face later with phrases like “see how horrible she is! That is why I had to leave!! She is like that all the time!!!”

Keep your cool, stay calm when you are speaking, and don’t give him anything to throw back in your face later. Believe me – your calm attitude will drive him crazy! I know that you would never seek revenge – you know better – BUT let me tell you that if you stay calm, above board, mature, then you will be getting the best revenge ever. If you continue to shine like the diamond you are, he will continue to look like crap, and life will just take care of itself.

When people used to say “How could your H leave you! You are so nice!” I would respond with “I will admit that I was not the perfect W. I could have done better. I just wish he had not felt the need to seek attention outside of our M”. No harsh words – no name calling. The result? The next time he would try to make excuses for himself, try to cover up his horrible behavior, people would say “you are such a jerk! She never says anything mean about you! ”

Do you see what I mean? I am not suggesting that you should pretend, or play games, just to make him look bad. What I am suggesting is that when you are the more mature person – when you refuse to dwell in anger or bitterness, you allow God to work on His own. And let me tell you – God can work just fine all by Himself! He really doesn’t need you to point out your WH’s faults, or his sins.

And when you spend your days loving on your kids, studying the word, praying, worshiping, being the best friend and Mom and daughter you can be – then before long the anger, and the fear just start to go away. When you see your full life, and realize how many people truly love you – there will not be room for bitterness in your heart. And that is a very good thing.

Our pastor preached a great sermon on Forgiveness recently, and my favorite line was this:
Something has happend to you, in your past, that does NOT define who you are.

Think about that. This is bad – and it is not fair. But it does NOT define who you are.

OK, I am afraid to even post this after all I said this week about NOT wanting him back. But here goes...

God was preparing my heart the 24 hours before my H asked to talk to me. I was so full of anger this week, that without a softening of my heart, I would have refused to even hear what my H had to say. I went to church Wednesday evening and was surprised and rattled to see my H there. Worship was intense for me and I really felt God moving in my heart. Then the message was about generational curses--which is most definitely what we are dealing with. I knew that all along but did not truly understand the bondage that comes with it. So I left there feeling a SMALL bit of compassion for my husband--not understanding, not acceptance--just compassion as I truly began to see his brokenness in the message. BUT I was so angry at myself for feeling compassion for the man who destroyed my heart and devastated my children. So I wrestled with this throughout the next day. I had counseling that afternoon and ranted to my counselor about my anger. Towards the end my counselor says to me, I need to say something that you probably aren't going to like right now. He tells me that he hasn't given up hope on my marriage because of my ability to feel compassion. He says, yes, it would take a miracle from God and a long, slow process, but that he doesn't yet see the door closed. I did not want to hear this and tried to deny it, by finally admitted that there is nothing I want more than to have my family back and healing to take place. But I told him, I did not believe it was possible because I was sure that my H had made his decision and was not coming back.

Everything I read here told me it could be possible, but I truly thought I had lost his heart for good.

I get home from counseling and respond to an earlier email from my husband about setting up a visitation schedule. I tell him I will agree to it, but then go on to tell him:

"Please understand how difficult and unbelievable this all is for me. To have you tell me you don't love me and want to be with someone else has left me heartbroken and incredibly confused about our relationship and our history. But now to face that because of your personal desires, I have to be without my children every other weekend for the rest of their childhood, is a reality I am still processing."

Well, a few hours later he calls and asks if we could get together that evening to talk. I agreed, having no idea what he wanted to talk about. I admit I expected it to be divorce details but I hoped it would be his wanting his family back.

He came in the door a completely different man than he has been for the past 6 months. He was my husband again. Now I understand what you all mean about the wayward attitude and sometimes you're talking to the wayward and sometimes to your spouse. He was humble and remorseful. He has refused to give me much details up to this point. But last night, he told me he would like to answer all of my questions. So I started at the beginning of our relationship and progressed through it until I had all the pieces. And the story I got last night FINALLY fits what I have lived; the pieces finally fit. Because of that and because of the peace God gave me after our conversation, I believe he was honest for the first time in months. He didn't bulk or stumble on any of my questions. His attitude was totally different, as if his desire was to help me instead of protect him (or her).

So here is the story I now believe to be the truth. 12-13 years ago this old girlfriend came to his business as a customer. They went to lunch and an emotional affair began. It lasted a month or two then they agreed to end it. Many really good years pass. Then about 6 years ago, the same scenario takes place--emotional involvement for a short time and then it ended. Zip forward to January of this year. She comes to his business again and they start talking and meeting. This now leads to a physical affair, that is just now ending (I hope).

My husband has been loving, kind, respectful, admiring to me throughout our entire relationship--until January. This is part of why I say the pieces fit. I believe when he allowed it to become physical, he checked out on me emotionally. He has been like a stranger these past months. That's what lead me to believe he was having a mid-life crisis affair.

After answering all of my questions. I tell him he has destroyed the 6 people who love him most (me and the kids) and ask him was she worth it. He tells me NO. Huh? I wasn't expecting that. I thought he was finally answering my questions to give me some closure. He tells me my memories of our relationship were real and all the things I thought he felt, he really did.

Now, I don't want to be a fool, but this story FITS. And it is good to have the best years of my life back. It was torment thinking it was all lies.

He tells me that the last 2 weeks without his family have been horrible. He is crying a lot and can't sleep. I am so glad at this point that I had been firm and cold with him. He got a taste of reality without us, and I was afraid it wouldn't hurt him, and he is telling me it devastated him.

He proceeds to tell me that if I am still willing, he would like to go to marriage counseling. He will go where ever I want and whenever I want.

I ask him, you do realize that this means you can never, ever, ever have any type of contact with this woman ever again. He says yes, he realizes that.

He tells me he feels we need to take it slow, knowing that there is much healing that needs to take place.

So he asks if there are any other questions I need answered and I say not right now. We agree to contact my counselor and set up a session for us both.

He asks if there is anything I need from him right now. I say I really need a hug. We hug long and he again tells me how truly sorry he is for how much he has hurt me.

Then he leaves.

I text him later telling him how much his willingness to be honest meant to me.

He just came to pick up the kids for his weekend with them. Before he left, I asked him if he was still on the same page as he was yesterday and he says yes.

OK, I don't want to get beat up for believing him after all these lies. But he was my husband again. And he was remorseful and willingly honest. I saw him broken and hope that this is the bottom he needed to turn his heart toward home.

I have read here about how plan B can really end the affair. I look at what I have been doing these last few months. I Plan A'd like crazy when I first found out, and I know I blew his socks off because he even commented on it last night. I only told a few people during that time because I thought the affair was over and we were working toward recovery. But 2 weeks ago when he led me to believe that she had been the one he wanted all along, I exposed like crazy, not with intent to reconcile, but with intent to end the deception. I kicked him out and probably did as close to a Plan B as possible without writing a letter. I considered him dead to me and cut him off from everything I possibly could. I refused to call him for help in any way and I told him I could handle things just fine without him.

I am here now asking you all: Where do we go from here. While he has the kids, I want to come up with my boundaries and what I expect from him at this point. My counselor is booked out 2 weeks, but knowing the circumstances, is going to call if there are any cancellations. He said to call him back Monday and he would see what he could do. I don't want to be in limbo for two weeks. I want to act on this now.

I know that a NC letter is absolutely necessary and must include that she will need to take her business elsewhere.

What do we do after that? I am willing to let him come home, but I don't know if that is wise or not. I forgive quickly when I believe the person is sincere. I don't want to put myself emotionally in danger though.

What are some healthy boundaries, accountabilities, etc. I feel at this point, it all needs to be on my terms. He has to be willing to agree to whatever I need to heal.

SMB,

I think I saw your sitch last spring as DKG...or did I?

I am no expert but I suggest you reflect your new request in your title (take out 'Plan D' and 'do NOT want him back' if, in fact that is no longer true).

Sounds like your WH has begun to shed his fog slowly. Do NOT let down your guard. I forgave immediately and had 3 more D-Days within the next 6 months.

It's a weekend so things slow down, but you should be able to get your help with boundaries from other sources on this site as well as threads and posts. Read, read, read and ask, ask, ask....even if it takes folks awhile to answer.

Read Marriedfor30yrs' thread on the Just Found Out forum. She is an excellent writer (funnier than all-get-out) who has had great advice posted to her. She does not have young children in the home but you should still be able to relate to her situation.

Schoolbus has posted some great boundary ideas but I can't remember on which thread.

Sorry I can't help much but I will be praying for you and your lovely children. Others will help soon.

Ace

See if he will write a no contact letter. That is essential. If he agrees, then have him write it, and you send it. If he refuses, you will know that he is not that serious.

I was feeling good about all this until this part:

"He tells me he feels we need to take it slow, knowing that there is much healing that needs to take place."

Take WHAT slow? If you are talking about getting back together and taking some action at a SLOW PACE then I suspect he intends on continuing his affair for awhile.

What needs to happen NOW - TODAY - is that he comes back home. Being out there without you keeps him unaccountable and leaves him vulnerable to temptation. He should come home NOW.

A no contact letter patterned after the one in Surviving an Affair, should be written by you both and mailed by you to the OW. He should agree to never ever see or speak to the OW again even if you have to move to another state to achieve this. Contact with the OW should end NOW. TODAY.

This is not something that should be done "slowly." Taking your time on these actions only increases the odds of a continuing affair, which will mean the death of your marriage.

SMB, in short, talk is cute and all, but it is very CHEAP coming from a wayward. You can ONLY go by ACTIONS. They can say some real SINCERE sounding words, but it is just blabber without some real action behind it.

Is he willing to do what it takes to save your marriage or is he just all talk?

AIB: Thanks for the encouragement. After reading your post, I went over and read MF30Y. That's why it is now 1:23 a.m. I miss my family tonight (first weekend with dad).

ML: I am so glad you replied. I was thinking the same thing that you said about him coming home now. My take on him "going slow" is that he recognizes the damage and fears moving home may be more than I can emotionally handle, especially considering how cold I have been to him the past 2 weeks. However, I see it completely differently. I want him home very much. If he really wants to do this, I don't want a visitor. And I was thinking that was the MB way. Although, some IRL have told me not to let him back in too soon. That he needs to hurt some more and prove himself before I allow him home. But him being gone makes it too easy to, of course, continue contact and not be accountable. Also, how can we talk, read, connect if he isn't here? I think he also worries about getting the kids hopes up and disappointing them. But the way I see it, you're either in or you're out. If he's in, he needs to put both feet in.

I want to think this through this weekend so that I can talk with him or write out what I need and give it to him when he brings the kids home.

SBM,

I thought this might happen...because you were still too "angry" for it to truly be over. When it is over, you will be totally indifferent to him.

So, the thing that Mel is trying to tell you is that he is saying that HE wants to take it slow so that he can dangle you on that line. YOU need to be the one that sets the conditions for his return home...you let him drive it, and it will end up in the ditch.

If he were truly serious about this...he would be begging to come home. If you agree with this "taking it slow" instruction from him, you are going to be giving permission for him to maintain contact with this OW while you are allowing him to "take it slow".

"taking it slow" instruction from the WS ain't nothing but a ploy to eat cake.

JMHO
committed

SMB,

Taking things "slow" will also hinder recovery and prolong his withdrawl. Trust me on this one, I'm telling you this from a BTDT standpoint. He needs to jump in with both feet, not stick one toe in at a time to test the water.

LC

SMB,

Pre-MB, my WH said all the right things, did things to show he was committed to me, appeared to be over his fantasy.....and I believed him. (MC--at that time--said to 'just trust God' to help WH.)

6 months and 2 more secret email accounts and 3-more D-Days later, I discovered the evils of withdrawal the hard way. WH had lied to that MC all along. Then we found MB.

The attitude your WH has towards a No Contact letter that you witness being sent and received by OW (if possible) will tell you where his heart is.

My WH wrote and emailed the first one on D-Day #3, but that OW thought I had dictated it b/c he did NOT make any of his usual typos.

After D-Day #4, he offered to hand-write another NC letter in blue ink which we sent with a copy of HNHN to her work address.

My H was anxious to do this immediately. If your H is not, that might mean what Mel and Committed and Believer have indicated. We also quit seeing that MC and read MB books instead. (My story attached to my sig line has all the sordid details.)

The only "slow" in our recovery was/is my rebuilding trust in him, which he totally understands and is helping me progress by being completely transparent.....24/7, even to the point of overkill. (Can any WS be too transparent?)

You ARE the driver, SMB. Keep posting and asking to establish your plan and I'm sure many will help, even if it is a 'slow MB boards' holiday weekend.

I'm praying for you.

Ace

Has he ended his affair? That is the most important thing, because this is not going anywhere until he ends all contact.

Secondly, the goal is not to punish him, but to savey your marriage. If the goal is to save your marriage, I would let him come back home NOW. You can't work on the marriage until he MOVES HOME. Moving home is in the best interests of everyone involved. Not moving home will make it harder to recover the marriage and make it more tempting for him to contact the OW.

The fact that he is reluctant to move home now makes me very leery, SMB. It makes me think he wants to keep you on the farm while he has some fun with the OW a little longer. I hope I am wrong!

p.s. SMB, watch what he DOES, not what he SAYS. Only ACTIONS count with a WS.

The man is, IMO, cake eating. Watch behaviors as ML says. They will tell you everything. IMO, if he truly has had an awakening... HE would be the one pushing to get back home immediately. I don't buy it.
On top of that....why take back a man that has put you through this for 13 years? I just don't see why you would allow someone that abused you that way and for that long back into your life.
This does not require a miracle... for this to happen it will require you to lower your standards to allow someone back in your life that does not begin to deserve to be called "husband" by you.

I have written a letter expressing my need for him to come home and to write a NC letter. Please give me feedback on its content.

Dear WH,

If your desire is to heal our marriage and bring our family back together, then it is critical that you move back home and send a no contact letter to OW immediately. Your words Thursday night were what I wanted to hear, but what you are willing to DO to rebuild my trust is what will matter in healing my heart.

We cannot begin to work on our marriage if you are not here. We need opportunities to talk, read, connect, work, play, and eat together. I think it is best for all 7 of us to have you home again. Yes, it will be uncomfortable and painful at times. But your being home opens the door for healing and bonding moments.

Your talking or meeting with OW to end the affair will put our marriage recovery in jeopardy. I need you to write a letter explaining to her your desire to be a husband and father to your family and that you can never see or talk with her again. That includes her taking her business elsewhere. But doing this, you show me the respect I deserve and your commitment to be serious about my feelings and needs in this healing process. I would like you to read Chapter 5 in Surviving an Affair before you write this, so that you can fully understand why it must be done this way and how important no contact is going to be.

Once this letter is written, I would like to read it and then mail it together. This is the first step in you and me saving our marriage and family.

Rebuilding my trust in you begins as soon as you take these two steps. I pray that you are willing.

I would delete this part. No need for him to understand your need for respect..that YOU DESERVE..nor TO READ SAA...

He needs to do just TWO THINGS..come home and write the letter..also, though, you need to see and read the letter and mail it with him...the REST can come later..

Hey Mama Bear....are ya hibernating? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> LOL!

I just thought I'd check up on you and change your inner title. Don't know if it will work but it looks like this title now matches the other one.

Sounds like a great letter with the changes Mimi suggests.

How's it going?

Ace

PS Have you read Princess Meggy's story on the OT forum? That will inspire you, especially since they recovered before finding MB.

Hi AIB,

You lost me on the inner title stuff. I'm haven't learned my way around here enough yet.

Thanks Mimi and AIB for the thoughts on the letter. I will make those changes.

I've been cleaning/organizing like crazy today since the kids are with their dad. If he agrees to come home, then it will be to a neat, clean home.

I am beginning to get a little scared. It was so much easier when I was angry and thought there was no hope. Now I'm back in limbo land. I am really fighting the roller coaster right now. I am trying to push thoughts out of my head so that I can stay on some even keel for the weekend.

Thanks for checking on me.

[quote Has he ended his affair? That is the most important thing, because this is not going anywhere until he ends all contact. [/quote]

I don't know if he has told her that he is ending the affair. I hope that after he reads my letter Sunday night, he will work on his NC letter.

[quote The fact that he is reluctant to move home now makes me very leery, SMB. It makes me think he wants to keep you on the farm while he has some fun with the OW a little longer. I hope I am wrong! [/quote]

This concerned me,too. But I wanted to check here first to make sure what I was thinking was what MBers would suggest. Now that I have some feedback, I plan to give him a letter asking him to come home. (letter is posted above)

SMB,

Wow what a read!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Ok, that's the good news now he has to walk the talk and I believe he can do it.

What you need for you is to keep a clear mind, calm heart and have lots of patience. He will not heal your way or at your speed. He needs to heal his issues at his speed. That's the importance of working an MC familiar with MB concepts.

Pull copies of the EN questionnaire and the SAA & HNHN books. Give them to him and let him read them at his pace.

You ask about your boundaries. There is NO instant boundaries. You had better be doing some hard research on you so that you can identify then implement your boundaries. In addition to straightening up the house, you've got some soul searching t/d. Do it while he has the kids.

Take this at a pace you can handle. He isn't ready to move back yet. He needs to make you and your family feel safe around him. That's his initial goal. The love stuff will follow.

You on the other hand get a handle on your BS attitude. You may want to wring his WS neck....hold on and let's be smart about it. For your H to come back, the WS must die. Yep, the WS attitude must cease to exist but you can't do it, he must. So give him his space to do so and you monitor it by how you are feeling safe (by his actions).

If you can squeeze in a call to Steve @ MB it w/b great. If not, find an MC familiar with MB concepts.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,

Are you suggesting that I not give him the letter asking him to move back home?

SMB, is there some reason you cant just call him up in the morning and tell his all this? Time is a wasting. It takes no time to drive home and about 2 minutes to write a good no contact letter.

Here is the sample letter from SAA:

Dr. Harley's (From SAA)

(OP), I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that (BS) did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay (BS) for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she&#65533;s been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely,
(WS)

Tell him this is what you need and ask he let you know what he will do.

No I will..... or promises....you are both waay past that, he needs to show actions. You gotta be patient as to when those actions come. Within reason of course but don't expect him to keep jumping on it all right away.

L.

My personal opinion is that he not move back home asap...

too much potential for more trauma to the children...

here's the thing...

there is nothing worse that FALSE recovery...

continued contact hurts...
but atleast you know the true nature of the beast...

false recovery...
devastating....

the kids having to witness dad leaving again....
heart wrenching....and shattering to their core.....

also...while you certainly need boundaries...

you are not to become his mother or jail keeper....

he wants you...
then he does what any person does when they want something..

they persue you....

HIS JOB
is to end contact

HIS JOB
is to seek out and find a hugely pro-marriage counselor...

HIS JOB
get std testing

HIS JOB
apologize to your parents, family, church, and friends as needed...
most importantly the kids...with understanding that he has to face all their feelings

HIS JOB
contact the marriage builders here...

HIS JOB
produce all email access..phone computer passwords...

HIS JOB
become 100000000000000000000000% stand up dad....

your job...
sit on your hands
bite your tongue...

and watch......

gobs and gobs of postive attention when he does good...

tons of straight talk...
questions like what do you need me to do to help you once again become an honorable man who values the truth....

I wouldn't put my children in a position like for failure this soon...

ARK

Ark,

Your points are well taken, and please know I am considering all you said. This decision is so hard.

I think I could argue both options as the best choice, but making that choice...

I need to pray about this today and trust God's leading.

Mel,

I am not calling him today to come home because he took the kids to the lake for the weekend and today they are going to his sister's. I know a call asking him to come home instead will not be received well. Regardless of what anyone here thinks that may mean about his motives, from my point of view, it is not wise to ask him to come home early.

OK, that shouldn't have sounded like it did. Please know how thankful I am that you are all responding to me and helping me through the biggest challenge of my life. I do respect everyone's opinions and experience here. Please know that.

My tone in the above statement did not come across well in my writing.


P.S. I was hoping you would all be in agreement as to my actions so that it would be OBVIOUS to me that I needed to suck it up and do what I might be afraid to do. You guys are making this hard giving me different opinions!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

SMB, what I meant by my statement is that he should not waste any time coming home, for the reasons I gave you. If he is at the lake today, then wait until he gets back and them call and tell him that if he wants to work on the marriage, he should come home to do it.

This is not complicated, SMB. There is absolutely no legitimate reason for you to be seperated if he means what he says. Staying seperated only increases your risk of divorce.

Why are you not there, SMB?? I don't understand why you are acting seperated if he says he wants to be married? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> This seems to be a very clear case of don't listen to my words, but watch my actions. He says he wants to be married, but is acting seperated! Why?

There is something wrong here, SMB. Get the man home. Tell him what I told you above, to send a nc letter and to come home. There is no reason to stay seperated. I suspect he won't want to come home and if that is the case, you will want to flush that out quickly.

H will be home within the hour with the kids. I would appreciate your prayers.

I plan to ask him if we can talk for a few minutes and ask him to come home and to write a nc letter.

SMB,

I hope and pray your H's actions show he is ready to commit to you, your family and your marriage.

LC

I've got my fingers crossed for you.

Just read your thread. What a rollercoaster...

Fingers crossed and prayers that things go well tonight.

Well, we had a short conversation when he dropped off the kids. I wish I could say it went great...

I saw his attitude as wishy-washy. I wish I could remember our exact wording, but my mind doesn't stay that clear. Here's what I can remember:

I started by asking him what he plans to do from here. His response was that he expects to sit down in a counselor's office with me and begin talking about things.


I told him that if he was serious about healing our marriage, then he needs to move back home. He said he was not expecting that I would offer that yet. (I think because of my Plan B/D style behavior the week before, he was expecting me to not be ready for him home). He says he needs a few days to think about it--I might be able to buy this one, but am VERY SKEPTICAL that it is more about her still.

I told him I need him to write a letter to OW that he wants to heal our marriage and cannot communicate with her ever again. He SAYS he understands that he needs no contact with OW and is willing to write a letter--so he says, but didn't say when.

He was more wishy-washy last night saying things like, "I still have so many issues to work through" (yeah, perhaps like how to keep his marriage and still screw his OW), "I don't want to mislead you" (well, either you want your marriage or you don't, seems pretty clear cut to me), and a few other fog statements.

At this point, I don't know how to proceed. I certainly am leary of his sincerity. He seemed more like the WS last night, staying on guard, protecting his indecision.

Orchid,

After my conversation with H, I am hoping your perspective is correct. But I just don't know. I could see the fog last night, but I'm just not sure he'll ever come out of it.

I can see that perhaps he needs a slower pace, but I can also see that that could be just plain, ole, stinky BS.

It seems to me that I am the one who might want to take it slow after being SOOOOOOO burned. So what LEGITIMATE reason could a WS have for needing to proceed slowly?

There IS no legitimate reason, SMB. Oh, sweetie. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> He is turning this all around on you. He says he needs to "think" about moving back home now because of your sudden change in attitude... so it's your fault, see. He's making this seem like your behavior is making reconciliation seem scary or unsafe. This is total BS. If he really wanted to work on the M... and you approached him with "yes, me too... please move back home"... you would think he would be jumping up and down and yippeeing to the heavens that you were willing to take him back.

He is still wayward, SMB. Please be very, very, careful. DON'T let him call the shots here. When did he say he'd get back to you?

KM

KM,

I need to clarify that HE didn't say anything about my change in attitude. I am just guessing that my going from being so angry that I didn't even acknowledge his existence to then asking him to move home--well, I can see how that might throw him a little. But that is not what he said. He said very little--just that he really wasn't expecting me to offer that and that he need a couple days to think about it.

But yes, I would say Mr. Wayward was here last night.

Think about it? Honestly what is there to think about? If I had hurt someone soooooo bad and suddenly they said that they would forgive me and help to renew our R, I would JUMP at the chance. Wouldn't you? The only response I would have is "Are you sure?" That's the only legitimate response.

He's not done. He's cake eating. Be careful.

MC is set for July 10 and we are on the wait list to get in this week if there is a cancellation.

I realize none of this matters until he decides to give up cake.

I would continue with Plan B?D until he meets every requirement that you have laid out for him. So far all he is doing is yanking your chain. Again, I will ask this question.... "Why would you want him back?" Also... why would you change any plans that you have for the morsels that he is throwing you right now... the ONLY way you should even consider changing your direction is if he FULLY commits to the M immediately.

Just my 2 cents.

SMB,
Just my two cents as a former wayward. I jumped at the chance to get back in the house when my BH acted open to reconciliation. I was moving much faster than he was. I was ready to bust my a$$ to fix the damage I had done.

BH was cautious, but I was annoyingly persistant. I would go to his house while he was at work and scrub and clean. I wrote him love letters, called often, I was very eager to prove myself. I was completely ready to immerse myself in the role of wife and mother with absolutely no hesitations.

Just my experience. I am hoping the best for you.

Another question...

If he continues to horse around this week about the NC letter and moving home, should I still do counseling with him next week?

These are the three things I want from him: NC Letter, come home, MC. Do I accept MC and hope that leads to NC Letter and moving home? Or am I wasting time in MC if he is unwilling to do the other two?

My son asked him this weekend if he loved Mommy. He said yes, but not like a husband.

Isn't that how most WS

MC canbe a HUGE stall for the WS. He is just playing a game right now. You made a decision to not play any longer. Now he is pulling the puppet strings again... cut them and don't dance.

MC is a waste of time. The problem is that he has another woman. If he is keeping the OW, what exactly would you discuss in MC? Better to take that money and use it for something useful, like a pedicure and new haircut for you.

I hate to tell you this, SMB, but he is stalling to buy some more time to have his affair. If he were done, wild horses could not keep him from moving home. Marriage counseling is absolutely useless under these circumstances and is only being used as a stalling manuever to keep you on the plantation while he conducts his affair. MC is usually useless anyway, though.

I would take a hard look at going into Plan B. But before you do that, you must get your ducks in a row [finances, visitation, etc] and leave a good taste in his mouth before you go dark.

MEDC,

Please know that I am listening to you and appreciate your responses.

In reply to the above question...because I have 5 children counting on me to make the right decision. I need to be able to stand before them and God knowing that I have done everything on my end to preserve the marriage commitment I have taken. Even though God gives us a way out in an adultrous marriage, I believe His desire is complete reconciliation and healing of the relationship. Obviously, it takes two to have that happen. But I am accountable to God on my handling of this.

I look into my children's faces and know that what is best for them is that mommy and daddy love each other and are married. If there is any way to get that back, then I will do what it takes.

With that being said, I agree that he is still manipulating me, or trying to. I am holding firm to the NC letter and coming home.

SMB, I do not, for one minute, question why you want him back. You are doing the right thing for you and your children.


AMEN <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, Mel. It is really tough for me right now. I feel like I am in the battle of my life and I am my children's only protection, and that the warrior who always fought FOR ME, is now the one I fight against.

I guess that's not really true. I fight against the WS, but my H is the one who fought for me. I want my HUSBAND back.

You have exactly the RIGHT ATTITUDE, SMB. And just remember, God is on YOUR SIDE and wants you to win. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Philippians 4:13

I am having a real emotional time today over the idea that "he loves me, but not like a husband loves a wife." I've been reading enough to know this is typical fog talk. But it doesn't make it hurt any less. It is stabbing me in the heart all day today.

How can a man that has been professing his love and admiration for me for over 20 years, not love me like a husband now???

I want off this d*mn roller coaster. I can't stand the ride!

He is only feeling the rush from the A. It consumes him.

If he ends the A, the fog will lift and he will feel those feelings again. I want to show you just a little part of a conversation that my FWH had with his OW.


FWH says:
Then I love you. I need you. You mean the world to me.
FWH says:
I will always love you.
FWH says:
I will continue to love you even if you shut me out of your life.
FWH says:
I will love you even if you do not love me back.
FWH says:
I will love you if you just want me to be a fishing buddy.
FWH says:
I can continue to tell you that I love you or I can love you in silence.
FWH says:
I will love you even if you never let me see you again. It will hurt, a lot, but i will continue to love you.
OW says:
Are you done?
FWH says:
Never. I will love you for life.


OK that's what he felt THEN. It wasn't real. He is home now. Tells me he loves me and that he will never leave. He will protect his weaknesses and never put himself in a tempting position again. His feelings for me were not evident in that conversation, but they were there.

Your WS still has THOSE feelings for you. Hang tight. And keep your hands in the roller coaster at all times.

He is still VERY WAYWARD!

Yes, it is hurtful, but please see this in the proper perspective. He is high on the addiction of an affair, just as a crack head is high on CRACK. When he sobers up he will NOT feel this way! When he sobers up, he will remember he said this and be HORRIFIED.

You are drowning in the minutia of fog babble...and letting it control,,,undermine....and get you off focus...

he says....

he loves me, but not like a husband loves a wife.

you say...

uhhh....duh...

loving husbands would never ACT the way he does...love is actions NOT feelings...
and he has'nt ACTED like a husband for a while now....
this is not a huge revelation...

would you be happier with false proclomations of love...
eccchhhhh....not me...

exactly what plan are you in...
and why are you making this so difficult on you..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

the plans ground and guide you..

inspite of the babble from the other country...

ARK

You are right. He OBVIOUSLY doesn't love me like a husband right now.

As far as a plan, I did plan A for 2 months. Then had a D-Day from he!! and told him to leave, which he eagerly did. He has been gone 2 weeks this past Friday. During that time, I couldn't stand talking to him, looking at him, or even acknowledging his existence. I was "sure" I wanted Plan D at that point.

Then he contacts me last Thursday with a willingness to answer any question I wanted to ask and telling me he wanted to go to counseling with me, but wants to take it slow.

Sooo, I don't know what Plan I should be in. Any thoughts?

I think you should do a stellar Plan A for about 2 more weeks and then go to Plan B. You will want to get all your finances in place along with a visitation schedule, making it crystal clear he is to never expose your children to this unfit adult. Do your best in this time to show him your very best side and what he has to return to when his affair ends.

Then go DARK AS NIGHT in Plan B.

p.s. I would also suggest exposing his affair and letting folks know that it is BACK ON. Your children should also be told the truth.

Agree

What Mel said.

I exposed to friends, family, and other influential people two weeks ago stating that he is currently in an affair and has left us for her.

I also told all five children the truth then, too.

Plan A, huh? You all better pray for me to stay calm and focused, because today my emotions have yanked me all over the place. But I can see that Plan A is a good choice right now and two weeks is PLENTY of time for him to get off the fence, write a NC letter, and come home.

I just don't know how much contact I will have with him since he moved out. Should I call, email, or text him at all? If so, just "hey, how you doing?" Or what?

I agree with the others-- plan A for two weeks, every chance you get. Then hit Plan B and watch him spin.

You could contact him to invite him for dinners with your children, making sure everything is as attractive as possible. Use the next two weeks to leave a brilliant impression of family, warmth, and love. Bite your tongue when you need to (I know, its very difficult). During my plan A (which was blessedly short), I prayed to God for grace. I never discussed the infidelity or had arguments with my (serial)FWH in our home. I made it a sanctuary.

see, I would normally be right there with ML on this as her advice is spot on for most a's. I just don't see it for a 13 year affair. If he loved you as a H should love a wife, he could not have done this for 13 years. What is there to go back to since you guys never really had a true and honest relationship to begin with. And I am sorry to say... but don't count on there having never been another woman too... a man with NO morals over this time likely will have stepped out again and again.
I'm sorry...but even with the kids...unless this jerk shows that he is 100000% committed to you and his children, I wouldn't waste 1 minute of plan A on his sorry asss. 13 years is a long time and a lot of stuff to get over. I would suggest a call to the Harley's on this one...it can't hurt.
And since you mentioned the kids and God I will address both. I think you owe it to God and to your children to raise them in the healthiest home possible. I don't see that being with a man that has abused every role he has ever held...perhaps you see him differently, but can you even remember a time when he wasn't wayward... it's a LONG ways back.

I am so sorry for the pain you are in and understand your confusion.

MEDC

MEDC, first off, this is not a "13 year affair." He has known the OW for 13 years and only saw her again last Jan and resumed his affair.

And secondly, a long term affair is not a deal breaker by anyone's standards. Certainly not Dr Harleys! If she wants to move on, that is her preogative, but this is entirely up to her. If she wants to save this marriage, then that is what she should do. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason not to. Her marriage is just as salvagable as anyone elses.

She owes it to her children to do her best job possible to save her marriage, IF she feels she is up to it.

SMB wrote:


This is what she wrote about the affair, MEDC. This is not what I would call a "13 year affair", but even so, there is absolutely no reason she can't save her marriage even if it was.

Nor can she say that he is "immoral" just because he is addicted to this woman. If he were immoral in all other aspects of his life, I would agree with you, but he's not.

what has happened here is that 13 yrs ago he became addicted to this woman and never addressed it. Because it was kept secret, he left himself vulnerable to multiple repeat performances just like Harley says will happen. That doesn't mean this is hopeless. Just the opposite, IMO, now that the truth HAS COME OUT, she has a chance THAT SHE NEVER HAD BEFORE to save her marriage.

And if anyone wants to know what happens when folks ignore Harleys advice to END CONTACT FOR LIFE with an affair partner, this is it!! This is what you are facing if you fail to heed Harleys advice.

mojodiva is RIGHT ON!!

SMB,

During this plan A you're just trying to show him what could be. What's possible. You can do it for 2 weeks. And during that time, like Mel said, get your ducks in a row.

Bite your tongue, vent here.

Just be pleasant, not phony.

Then when it's up, you give him your plan B letter and go totally dark.

2 weeks...You've got that in you.

Mel... I do not agree that a 13 year affair is something that SHOULD or can be gotten past...but,

I would agree that it is a stretch to call this a 13 year affair until all the facts are known. SMB made it very clear that she no longer wanted him back and seemed to be in a healthy place regarding this. I just see her being played by this putz... but if she truly wishes to save her M, then by all means, she should follow your direction on this.

MEDC, I think she was having an emotional reaction when she proclaimed it was over and was not thinking clearly.

I agree she is being played, which is why I am trying to help her get away from this. If she can remove herself from his abuse, she can calm down and think rationally enough to make a sound decision.

It was this post here that made me believe this was a 13 year affair. Plus his actions are the definition of immoral. In my opinion, this is when I saw her thinking clearly...
I just wanted you to know I didn't pull this stuff out of thin air.

MEDC, understand.

MEDC and Mel,

You are both right. And today I am so confused about what the truth is. But what I LIVED with this man were 23 years of joy and love...until this year. That is why I tend to believe the story that this didn't become a full blown affair until this year. But that he has a few times in the past, treaded in dangerous waters but then turned his heart to home.

BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE A BLIND FOOL!!! Sorting out the truth is so hard.

Loving someone and wanting things to work out will never make you a fool. You are a good woman that has been hurt and your ability to think clearly is being clouded by a man that is not worthy of your time at this point.
Don't be hard on yourself....he is the scoundrel here, not you.

He just called to say good night to the kids. This is when it really gets to me. JUST COME HOME AND SAY GOOD NIGHT. Give them real hugs and kisses, read a story. Sleep in our bed. Enjoy your family.

But instead, he calls. Gets them riled up and back out of bed. So now there up and down again--as if bedtime isn't difficult enough already!

And how did you handle this, SMB?

Well, he called back to talk to me. He just wanted to give me some idea of what he was thinking. He says that we will talk at counseling next Thursday about him moving back in. I told him I would like him to come home today...he said he knows.

I asked him if he is still in contact with OW. He says, "yes, he has been."

I am in tears. I don't know how to get through this. Just sit on my hands until counseling???

When he called I invited him to come over on the 4th if he didn't have plans. He said he had plans. I asked what he had going on...he's planning to hang out with his dad and step mom (where he's living right now) and then maybe visit his mom. That's just all BS. I know where he'll be--with her!

I told him that I am concerned that if he stays in contact with her, that he will change his mind about counseling next week. He said he won't change his mind about counseling.

So, I am thinking that his going to counseling is all about pacifying me because he got a reality check these last two weeks when I shut him out. I'll bet he sees counseling as a way to "work through my anger" so that I'll be more agreeable during the divorce.

Not in tears on the phone with him, in tears now that I am off the phone.

I stayed calm during the conversation.

SMB, counseling is a complete waste of time if he is seeing his adultery partner. Complete and total waste of time. Just as I suspected, this is a ruse to buy some time to carry on his affair.

I would simply let him know that there is no point to counseling if he is still carrying on his affair. Recovery is impossible until he ends his affair.

So, just stick with plan A, and take a hard look at Plan B.

SMB, refresh my memory. Have you exposed to the OW's family? What is the status with her H? What does she do?

Good Job! Now I would start planning how to spend the 4th with your wonderful children. Hope you can think of something to make it really special.

Then I would get my ducks in a row for Plan B. Of course he will be spending the 4th with the ho, they always do. Get your finances in order, and get an intermediary for contact regarding the kids. Then start writing your Plan B letter. You can even go to the counseling, and tell him in front of the counselor that you are not interested in "working on the marriage" while he is in the midst of an adulterous affair, and that the sleeze needs to be OUT, GONE, NOT WAITING IN THE WINGS, before you feel comfortable in counseling.

I cannot get any info on her. I have her cell number and her first name. Intellius couldn't find anything out and refunded my money.

I'm not even sure that she still has the cell number that I have because the text I intercepted on my H's phone said "got a new phone, call me when you can. XXXOOO"

Puking now--someone sending my H XXXOOO. Driving me INSANE tonight. (Not REALLY puking, OK, just gestering the puking thing.

As far as exposing to her family, my H said that she is separated and near divorce, just waiting for house to sell. Yeah, I know, can't believe anything they say, right?

I am in the midst of trying to get some info on her. I will post more later on that if it works out.

SMB, you need to hire a PI and find out who she is!! This is information that could be a POWERFUL weapon against the affair!

Thank you, MEDC. I somehow missed your post until just now.

I just am don't know what to believe. Actually, yeah, I do--believe NOTHING.

Probably a lie, but even so, her family needs to know she is carrying on an adulterous AFFAIR with a MARRIED MAN who has 5 children! Her affair with your H could be useful information in her "divorce" if that is true.

Find out who this woman is, SMB!! This is information that could save your marriage. Divorce is much more expensive than a PI!

Mel,

I just want to be sure that I understand you correctly. Are you suggesting that I tell him that I am unwilling to attend counseling until he ends the A? Do you suggest I tell him that right away? Or attend a session and make it clear there that I expect the A to end now or I will not attend any more sessions?

There is a parade and fireworks in a city nearby. I think we may go there. Thanks for redirecting my perspective.

This is what I am thinking.

Do Plan A until counseling. Then take this approach during counseling and go dark if he is not agreeable to NC.

Thank you all for going through this with me. This evening I have really crashed. I'm back to feeling like I've been beat to a pulp. I'd like to just check into a hospital for a few days and be a vegetable.

But then, well, you know, I've got those 5 beautiful kids who give me a reason to NOT CHECK OUT. Every morning my youngest wakes me up by crawling into bed with me, wrapping his little arms around me and saying (are you ready for this, it is the absolute sweetest thing!):

I love you infinity and beyond your wildest dreams.

Ain't that just worth waking up for?!

OK, another thing this little pumpkin says...

He comes up to me at least a few times everyday, gives me hug and a kiss and says, you need lots of those right now, don't you mommy, since daddy doesn't give them to you anymore.

If you can spare the gas money you could go there and say that, but personally, I think it would be more productive to clean the lint out of your dryer. The counseling is nothing more than a RUSE to buy time to carry on his affair.

SMB, I implore you to find out who this OW is along with her family's names. It is very possible that she is a married woman who just wants to have a little fun and has no intention of leaving her H. THIS IS NOT UNCOMMON. We have had affairs END THE DAY THEY were exposed to the OP's spouse, so I cannot emphasize the importance of this information.

Exposure to her family would also put a huge damper on the affair because if her family knows that your H is a married man with 5 children, they are not likely to ever allow him to darken their doorstep. That would cause a serious blow to any romantic notions they have of a future relationship.

ok, i take that back because cleaning the lint out of the dryer can be pretty productive; much more productive than counseling, that is for sure. It might be more productive to read all your junk mail!

Mel,

I will work on OW's family this week and see what I can come up with.

As for counseling, it's only a $10 copay, I really want him to go, AND I really like my counselor. Also, I'm just really curious what he'll say while we are there. So I may indulge him with that and then just lay it on the line while I'm there.

if he goes to counseling with you...YOU control the session. Ask him the moment the session starts if he is willing to end all communication with her immediately... also ask for her name and phone number. If he refuses to end all commuication... right then and there, tell him to leave and go into a dark plan B or plan D. You show that no good sob that YOU are calling the shots right now and the time for his game playing is over and done...that he isn't fooling anyone for a moment longer.
That's how I would play it. Some people would call that ambushing him... but he already knows that you want contact ended immediately. I call it making a point.

Actually the whole thing might be a lie. He might be telling you that it is an old girlfriend to protect somebody else. I would definitely do some investigating.

Check out classmates.com, and look for someone with her first name. Try a GPS in his car. Are you sure it isn't someone he works with?

Oh no, my gut tells me it is his old GF. This is someone I have always had those gut feelings about. Now I know why.

There are only two women that he works with, and I am sure it is neither of them.

Can't do classmates because I don't know where she went to school. He and I went to school together and she was in another city.

I don't really have access to his car so I don't know how I would do a GPS even if I wanted to.

Hire a PI, SMB! He might even be able to find her with that cell phone # you have. Have him tail your H when you know they will be together.

If you are not living together and the car is not yours, you would be committing a crime by putting a GPS on his car. Do you really want that drama? Now... if I was so inclined, I would break the law in order to catch a cheater... but you better pick your battles carefully. This actually could be a low grade felony in your area... and would definitely be covered under stalker statutes.

If you do it... have someone buy the item for cash and send any reports to an anonymous email account. Just to be safe.

A PI is the way to go. But again... ask yourself is he worth this much effort? Only YOU can answer that. Accepting him back is one thing... fighting for a man that has cheated and stole 13 years from you is quite another.

Only you can answer if he is truly worth all this drama.

I don't see the confrantation at the counslor's office as an ambush-- its a preemptive strike. I'm a very big advocate for a scorched earth policy and if you need to do this (move to Plan B/D), a place where you feel safe and empowered will be particularly helpful to you.

Reconciliation with serial adulterers is extremely difficult. I can completely empathize with looking at your children and knoing you have to know in your heart that you did everything YOU could do before leaving. My kids were the reason (excuse?) I used to stick arund a little longer. However, they are also now the reason I refuse to deal with another infidelity. I'm not going to allow an unstable person in my home.

Although your WH seems to have had just one OW (which I highly doubt, sorry), he still classifies, in my mind, as a serial adulterer. Its a huge character flaw and, to be honest, a recovery with a serial offender absolutely requires that the offender be sincere in wanting to change. You are definately facing an uphill battle. I am not saying it can't be done (we're in year 4 of recovery), but its TOUGH.

Watch his actions, don't listen to his words. I have a bad feeling about where your WH's head is at right now. I just can't stand fence sitters. They infuriate me!

While doing your Plan A for the next couple weeks, really consider your wishes and abilities in this.

Morning Update:

Very restless night once I finally went to bed. This king size bed is huge when my little body is the only thing in it. So life goes...

My son works with H during the summers. H sent check home w/ son since he is no longer direct depositing. He sent $100 more than his direct deposit was. He said that was the amount he would be sending. Don't really know why?? Guilt offering maybe.

I sent with my son this morning SAA wrapped in a bag to give to his dad. I included a note that I hope he will take time to read some, especially Ch. 5 (how to end an affair). Also asked him to keep in touch this week. No ILUs, just signed: BS.

Just found SAA laying on the table...son forgot to take it.

Well, maybe he'll come home for lunch and can take it then.

Maybe it was providential that son 'forgot' SAA. Something tells me it's too soon to start 'pushing' solutions on someone not yet totally seeking them. JMHO, but open to being wrong.

I am praying for you SMB and I know I can't go wrong in that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ace

Did you hire a PI, SMB? That would be the MOST EFFECTIVE step you could take right now. Getting her info could be a magic bullet against this affair.

Here is my 2 cents from a FWS POV.

If you give your H the book before he is ready to read it, it won't do any good. I felt forced to read a certain book by my H right after d-day. I went into the book with a closed mind and never made it past page 56. IMO, I wouldn't ask him to read it until he shows signs he is really ready to end it.

Is there anyone at his work who may know OW's name? I'm not sure that's the route to take, but you did say she is a customer. He may think he is hiding the A from everyone at work, but I would bet people know who it is and her name.

LC

LC,

Thank you for your FWS view!

I was hoping he would read the ending an affair chapter and END IT! I am so afraid he's going to spend this week hangin' with her instead of "time alone to sort things out."

I know what you're all going to say...OF COURSE HE HANGIN' WITH HER THIS WEEK.

Mel,

I am working a couple different options right now that I will post about later...once it's done. (It is possible he could be lurking here. I did suggest he do some reading and he said he would--but there we go again with what he said--we know words mean diddly).

SMB,

I just had another thought about his, did you ask your son how he would feel about being the "delivery person"? Even if he didn't know what was in the bag, he may still feel uncomfortable. He may not tell you because he won't want to add to your pain.

MB veterans, any thoughts on involving her son even in something minor like this?

LC

LC, it is not a problem for her son to deliver packages between them. I do think it might be troublesome to send that book because it comes across as an attempt to "educate" him, which just pushes him away. Harley recommends leaving the book laying around and just letting the WS pick it up if he is interested.

OK, I'll forget the book.

I'm trying not to use my son to "give messages", but I thought the package would be OK.

It is always a mistake to try to educate the WS. Like Mel says, you could leave it lying around (in the bathroom?), but it won't work if hubby isn't in the home.

He might be lurking, but that would be unusual. I told my ex all about MB. He read a little bit here while I was reading, but has never come back in 4 years. The waywards aren't interested in how to end their affair. Maybe if the Harley's had a section on how to continue the affair they might read here. LOL.

Even if he is lurking I would imagine it would be like reading a foreign language. When actively in an A, deep in fog I would think nothing here would make sense.

LC

So I read on here that often remorse doesn't come for months down the road. And I also read that the WS doesn't "feel in love" with S because of the fog.

So could someone tell me why in the he!! a WS even comes home??!!

I am at a point where I feel hopeless. I just don't see anything but him not letting go of her. And even if he does finally come home, the longer he chooses to stay away the deeper my hurt goes. This is a man that by all appearances has adored me for over 20 years...and now he doesn't love me and doesn't want to spend his life with me!! I just can't wrap my mind around this right now.

If remorse doesn't come until later and he isn't feeling love, then why will he ever leave HER to come back home.

I am just overwhelmed with sorrow tonight. I have held it all in today. Now my kiddos are in bed, and the sobs are coming. This agony seems more than I can bear. I feel the emotional pain could kill me it hurts so badly. And the pain is relentless. I need it to STOP for a while. And I know that it's not going to. If I choose to divorce, my pain doesn't go away. If I choose to work for recovery, my pain doesn't go away. I feel like I am drowning in my sorrow.

And guess what, he's probably with her right now enjoying a little romp.

I CAN'T STAND THINKING ABOUT HIM WITH HER ANY MORE. It seems that if he EVER felt love for me, he could be doing this to me.

It's just a really bad night.

Remorse does not come until withdrawal comes. Withdrawal does not come until the affair ends. The affair does not end until it becomes too difficult to maintain.

And how does the affair become TOO DIFFICULT, you ask??? EXPOSURE!!! And how does one effectively EXPOSE THE AFFAIR?? They GET THE GOODS ON THE OW!!!

Did you hire the PI, SMB???

{{{{{{SMB}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I am sorry you are hurting tonight, hon, but please, please hire this PI so we can help you ruin this affair. That is your BEST HOPE.

Mel,

I called a PI today. $300 retainer plus $25 per hour. Because H can come and go from work (he owns the place), and his evenings are free, I cannot even narrow down a timeframe for them that he might be meeting her. I know he took off from work to meet sometimes, and I am sure they must have met some evenings, too.

It seems to me that this could really rack up quickly and I cannot afford a huge PI bill.

A friend called OW pretending to call wrong number, hoping to get last name...didn't work. I don't know what else to do other than tail him myself, but I have 5 kids I can just leave at home all day. And I don't know if I could really pull it off.

There are sites on the internet that will give you the name of whoever has the cell phone account for about $75. See if you can try that.

SMB, why not give the PI the OW cell phone # and have him get her name, address, marital status, etc? Have you compared the cost of a PI to the cost of divorce?

I did Intellius and they couldn't get info and refunded my money.

Tried something else yesterday and it said it was either a prepaid or unregistered. And it DIDN'T refund my money.

If you know of one in particular, please let me know.

Do you have access to your H's cell phone bill? If not, a PI might be able to get the bill.

The PIs office said sometimes they can get a name from a number, but not always.

His cell is through his business. And I already have her number, just can't get her last name.

ok..

Alright, I can start there. I hope just that isn't $300!

Don't you think it would be worth it??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

If I get the info, yes. If I get nothing....

You have a first name, correct? Is there a chance any of his family members would know her maiden name from when they dated years ago. If I remember correctly you exposed to everyone, I would hope they would be willing to help you get the name.

This has to be so frustrating. If he owns the business don't you have access to the customers names just as he does?

LC

OK...you have her number...

Have a friend call her and ask for so and so. She will say it's a wrong number and if your friend is fast on their feet, they may be able to get her first and last name out of her. It's better than paying a ton of money to cyberspace and beyone if you aren't going to get any info...

Just a possible shot... Remember, this may seem underhanded, but then them having an affair is extremely underhanded...

Mel,

Thanks for the help tonight. I went for a drive after my first post. Told my 17 yos that I'd be back in a bit. I needed to do some loud sobbing and can't really do that here.

Came back and found your response to me.

I am all cried out, my head is pounding from crying so hard, and I'm starting feel exhausted, so, I'm heading to bed.

Thanks again!

SMB, I hate to tell you this, but you may have to spend some money here to hire some assistance in averting the crisis at hand. I applaud you for being frugal, but there is such a thing as being penny wise and pound foolish. Your marriage and family are under assault and,while you can't squander your resources, you may have to put out some bucks to save your marriage.

You need the help of this PI to find out what your H is doing. This intelligence could be very effective ammunition against the affair that you can't afford to pass up.

OK, I'll stay up a little longer. Thanks everyone.

His sister doesn't remember her and I don't think I'll have help from others. It's the I'm so sad and sorry this is happening, but let's not get involved crowd.

As far as his business, I have nothing to do with his work, never have, never wanted to. It was his dad's company that he took over years ago.

That is exactly what my friend did today. And it worked great, except OW didn't offer up her last name.

I hear you, Mel, I really do. I will check into it again after the holiday.

Where is he staying? I thought you had posted it somewhere but couldn't find it.

Any chance she would be there and you could get a lic plate #?

He's staying at his dads, and no, he wouldn't take her there.

Goodnight everyone. I will, of course, check back in tomorrow.

You mentioned you don't think you will get any help from anyone else in the family. You won't know unless you ask them. I can't imagine they wouldn't want to help you save your marriage for your family's sake. He may find out you are trying to get the info and he will be angry but too bad. What he is doing is far worse and much more damaging.

My guess is if she is carrying a prepaid phone, she is also hiding the relationship.

LC

At least it was a shot... I hope you find the info you are seeking.

SMB, It might cost that much. But they do take credit cards. I know that's not ideal, but in times of crisis...

you do what ya gotta do.

SMB,

I’m sorry you find yourself in this situation. Some of us know the heart felt pain that you are going through. Take extraordinary cautions to maintain your health as best as you can right now.

Ok, now I’m going to smack you with a big board right in the head so that you can use the resulting vibrations to center yourself and find your natural frequency. Picture the way a tuning fork acts when you strike it on a counter top.

**whack**

Ok, take a deep breath and be still for a minute.

Listen to this please:
Your H is a Wayward Spouse right now. Do not believe a DAMN thing that he tells you at all. Nothing! Zilch!

Only believe what he does. This is without exception!

You must find a way to protect your heart during all of the fallout from his A that he is going to rain down upon your head.

It is not easy by any means. He is going to spray venom and spew pure evil out of his nasty little mouth until the demon of adultery is expunged from his soul. Picture possession in your mind.

Ok, now, resume normal BS television programming. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW, those little taps from people here are supposed to be motivation, not to be interpreted as meanness.

Please take your time to decide weather you want to fight for your M or not. It’s not an easy choice at all.

But whatever you decide you have to STICK WITH IT and give it your best effort possible!

I chose to fight for my M. It wasn’t easy.

I’ve been D’d before also from a FWXW. That isn’t easy either.

SMB,

Just checking on you to see how you are and if you were able to get any info on the OW.

If you posted elsewhere I missed it and feel free to point me in the right direction.

How goes it, SMB?

What a week it has been. It seems so much has happened.

I invited H over if he wanted to hang out this past weekend. He came over Sunday eve and we had a wonderful time playing with the kids for hours. Then we tucked them in together (just like we used to), and he asks if I would like him to stay awhile or leave. I say I would love for you to stay if you would like to.

So he sits down and HE brings up R talk. We talked for hours. He has gone no contact (presently without a letter, but I am hoping to deal with that), told me her full name and where she lives, and answered more questions that I had about the affair. The WS was not there, by H was, and it felt so good!

He said he missed the kids terribly...then looked me deep in the eyes and said he had missed me, too. He said he wanted to come home. I asked when. He asked how soon could I handle him there. I said, "If you are serious about this, I want you to come home now where you belong, with your family. And so he stayed. I told him if he came back, it had to be for good; and he said it is for good. And so, we told the kids, daddy's staying home!!!!

I know it's only been a couple days and we have soooooo much to deal with, but he has been wonderful. There have been ILYs, SF, openness and honesty. Our first MC is today. I am hoping to deal with the NC letter. He met with her and told her. He said he had to see her because he had some boxes of his things that he needed to pick up. I know there were other ways to handle that because of all I have learned here. But he hasn't been here and hasn't read SAA. He wasn't living there, but I had boxed up EVERYTHING when I kicked him out. So he put some of those boxes at her place. And yes, I know a NC letter still needs to be sent.

I told him during our conversation that for this to work he was going to have to be an open book...I need to know where he is and who he is with, no secrets, and I will often need proof. I asked him if he thought he could really do that. He said yes. I asked what he needed from me. He said: affection--lots of hugs, touches, kisses. He expressed this in the past, but when he seemed stressed, I realize now that I pulled away and waited until he seemed "ready" to be affectionate. I told him this and that when he came home from work and seemed stressed out, I was afraid he would push me away, so I waited for him to "decompress". He said, "I craved that from you. I needed you to come over to me and touch me." Boy, oh boy, do I wish I would have understood that much sooner!

So last night, when he got home, I went to him and rubbed his shoulders and neck. He just melted, put his head down on the table and soaked it up.

My biggest factor right now is the NC letter and setting into place what he will do if she tries contact. I know this wave of feeling hopeful, loved and excited will pass and some of those tough emotions will be back. But oh how I hope I'm now riding the Beastie and not the Beast anymore (for those of you who are familiar with King's Island roller coaster).

I can't believe what I have been through over the last 3 months. I am happy to begin the process toward recovery...but also am trying to go into it realistically. I know the pain will resurface. I pray we both are up for the task ahead. All 7 of our lives depend on it.

SMB,

I am so happy and hopeful for you!

Congrats and continued good luck!

Wow! It seems as though he has responded to plan FU pretty well. Now, the real work begins... it is hopeful now that he is home. I think this is where the Harleys and a good MC can help you. Several weeks ago when you kicked him out and made a decision to not take him back it seemed as though this was the end. He is not the first and most likely will not be the last WH to respond to an agressive tactic like that.
Good for you and your kids...I hope that he follows through on his promises. 13 years of affairs is a lot to make up for...I think he is a lucky man and hopefully soon he knows just how lucky he truly is.
Please be careful regarding STD's.

Continued blessings.

SMB,
So glad to hear this. In the days to come your H will need to come on board with some of the basic marital concepts here (ENs, radical honesty, lovebusters, no contact for life, etc). You're probably gonna see some withdrawal too.

One day at a time.

Your goal is a happy healthy M. Some days it'll be hard to remember this.


Now that you have a little breathing room, make sure you read and understand all the concepts yourself.


Now hold on tight. You're gonna feel sooooooooo many different emotions at once. It's normal. Process it slowly. Good luck and good job!

SMB, I am so happy for you! but my concern remains about nc, too. Your H is an addict who is addicted to the OW. Unless he has a clear plan to avoid her, and understands the neccessity of no contact of life, this might fall on its face. I would be DILIGENT in ensuring that he a) writes her a no contact letter [this is more for YOU, than him, as a trust building gesture] and that he has a PLAN in place in case she tries to contact him.

Do you have the letter in Surviving an Affair? Dr. Harley recommends writing it together. You should be the one to send it. Here is a good article about what it will take to recover your marriage. Good job on getting the man home, SMB!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Sounds like things are going well. Now that you know her name, I would contact her husband and let him know about the affair. That will help with no contact, and he deserves to know the truth of his life. And I wouldn't buy the "they are divorcing, just have to sell the house".

Yes, I think Plan FU was key. All that anger I felt the second week was what made it possible for me to be able to do Plan FU.

I was really hoping the emotional roller coaster would let me off. (OK, I knew I was going to have to ride it some more, but ya can't blame me for hoping!)

I can't fathom that what lies ahead could come even close to what I've already been through. Am I wrong??

[quote I would be DILIGENT in ensuring that he a) writes her a no contact letter [this is more for YOU, than him, as a trust building gesture] and that he has a PLAN in place in case she tries to contact him.

Do you have the letter in Surviving an Affair? Dr. Harley recommends writing it together. You should be the one to send it. Here is a good article about what it will take to recover your marriage. Good job on getting the man home, SMB!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html [/quote]

Thanks for the article link. I just read it again (now that it is truly applicable to my life).

We talked about the letter in counseling. I do believe that he is willing to write it as closure for me. The counselor gave us a list of emotional needs to look over and discuss. My H wanted to do that before we went to bed last night. I hope to discuss the NC further tonight so that I can have closure on that part of this situation.

Things have been incredibly wonderful with him home. I really didn't expect it to be so easy to have him here. We are relaxed, talking, playing, laughing, touching. I thought it would take months for me to feel this way.

Can I add the "F" to his WH title? Is it too soon for that?

Are we now "in recovery" (obviously that would be at the beginning of recovery)?

And tell me, why does this matter to me? I feel like a little girl hoping to get into the "in group"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

SMB, have you seen the emotional needs questionaire? I would take that along with the lovebusters questionaire. That was a real eye opener for my H and I! There is a link under questionaires for both.

Also, the letter outlined in SAA is a sample of what the nc letter should look like. It should not be a friendly, kind letter, but a terse, matter of fact letter that admits wrongdoing and disrespect to you and his family. In it, he should ask her to never ever contact him again. And that would mean coming to his place of business.

Since you have her last name, I would strongly suggest calling her husband NOW and telling him about the affair. You may find that her "divorce," if any, was precipitated by this affair. No matter what the status, he has a right to know since this information about his life. This is a measure that is also for your own safety, because if they are still together, he can watch her from his end. If they are not, it will be a warning shot that you mean business and you know who she is.

Have you spoken to him about getting a plan in place for no contact?

And lastly, I do not want to rain on your parade, but what you are facing will not be easy. Your H is very relieved to be home TODAY, but he will go into withdrawal [if contact has truly ended] very quickly. That will not be a happy time, and may even involve a repeated contact with the OW. This is why it is so important to get a PLAN for no contact IN PLACE NOW, SMB. This is a corner you don't even want to cut. Just don't be alarmed when he comes crashing down.

You know? Another screen name change wouldn't hurt.

lol

Thank you, Mel.

I have read SAA and re-read many parts. I even took the EN questionnaire back when I first thought we were trying to recover our marriage. When we were going through the EN paper from the C last night, my H commented that the way it was written was like reading psychobabble. He also said that none of them on the list really hit the nail on the head for him. I agreed about the psycobabble and mentioned SAA questionnaire. I read it aloud to him and he made a few notes on his paper. It was getting late by then and we agreed to work on it some more later...had to save time for some incredible SF (already know that is a high need for him).

As for LBing, neither one of us do that. We talked about that some in C yesterday. My H and I both agreed that neither one of us have never been that way with each other. He has never said a hurtful word to me...ever...until this affair. We both have always shown respect, admiration, and love toward each other in our words. Hopefully, as we dredge through all of this, we can continue that.

I did look online to find info on her H. I found their house listed for sale. Actually even took a virtual tour--probably wasn't a good idea since I know my H spent time there--even saw her bed!

I have his name--pretty common one. I believe that he is not living there and don't know where he works or anything. Did try a search for cell # that came up dry. I can see this as an important step, but am not sure I will find the info. And the truth is, I also fear that if I contact him, he will get in her face, and the she will break NC with my H. Then he will be upset that I went behind his back when I am insisting on full disclosure from him AND SHE WILL HAVE CONTACTED HIM. I will still try to get info, but am concerned of the outcome.

I want to address the NC plan this evening. 1. write a letter, 2. trade cell phones, 3. actions to take if contact happens (call me immediately)

If he is willing to trade phones with me, I think NC will be much easier. That was the way they stayed in touch. So if she starts missing him and just wants to send a quick I miss you text, I will get it.

Yes, I am fearful of withdrawal. I want to think it won't be so bad because we are doing so well at home right now, but I know that is probably wishful thinking. We both know that two of his highest needs are non-sexual touch and affection and SF. So I am being sure to meet those. Actually, I am thoroughly enjoying meeting those right now. I've been craving being close to him, and knowing that he is pleased to receive this from me makes it easy. I hope that meeting those needs for him will make withdrawal easier on him. I hate the thought of him missing her. That's a hard pill to swallow.

SMB

You need to get a grip of yourself. Your life was not entirely over last week, nor is it entirely wonderful this week.

They are all just steps on the road to the eventual outcome of your sitiation, which will hopefully be a successful recovery.

Here are the phases of recovery I experienced, and others seem to agree with :


I'd suggest you're just out of three and hurtling into four with a beaming smile on your face.

This is a marathon, not a sprint, SMB. Calm youself. Apply loving detachment in your situation else your WHs craziness will continue to control you revery move and feeling.

All blessings.

What, you gotta problem with a recoveryhopeful sexymamabear?!

Any suggestions? I certainly like sexymamabear. Makes me feel, uhm, sexy, yeah, that's it...sexy. And we moms with 5 kids really like feeling sexy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ooo, that means the next phase is hyper-happy. That one sounds just disgusting.

Joking aside, thank you for the outline of phases to expect. I know the place I am at today will not last. I trigger easily (songs, movies, comments, etc). The panic feeling has been back a few times, and I am sure that at some point I'm going to feel the anger again. I will re-read your post as I feel my emotions churning. Maybe I'll see that I am on a normal path down this long road.

When this all started, God gave me a song to hold on to. It says: "There's a light at the end of this tunnel for you."

I feel like I can finally see the light.

SMB

My "hyper happy" rictus grin phase left hundreds of uplifting posts exhorting other BS to do the same conflict avoidance as i did at the time.

It was well intentioned cr[b][/b]ap. I would have you avoid the pitfalls I stepped into.

Thats all.

Your sit is very promising.

I would try first disguising your caller ID with *67 and calling and asking for him. If she answers, she can tell you if he lives there or not. Maybe you could even think of a clever way to ask where he lives? Can you find a number for him in directory assistance?
As far as her contacting your H, no contact is HIS JOB, not hers. If she contacts him, it will be up to HIM to prevent that. And you can disclose this to your H, just do it AFTER you have notified the OWH so your H does not warn her. Telling the OWH is in EVERYBODYS best interest, SMB, yours, the OW's , your H's and the OWH. It is not in your H's best interest to hide this secret from his victim for him.
Lovebusters emcompass much, much more than just being kind to one another. They can include annoying habits, independent behavior,, dishonesty etc. I would take a hard look at these, SMB, and take the questionaires.
Please also pay close attention to BobPure's list of recovery stages. In best case scenarios, you are looking at 12-24 months for PERSONAL RECOVERY. Adultery is about the worst thing that can happen to you, SMB, and I am sad to say it does not go away over night.

I think the name is cute and I get a chuckle out of it! Especially since a couple of weeks ago, someone made a thread about how you can always spot a hoochie mama around here by her suggestive screen name.[this is mostly true, tho] And then you changed your name to sexymamabear! You hardly fit the description of hoochie mama! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[quoteI think the name is cute and I get a chuckle out of it! Especially since a couple of weeks ago, someone made a thread about how you can always spot a hoochie mama around here by her suggestive screen name.[this is mostly true, tho] And then you changed your name to sexymamabear! You hardly fit the description of hoochie mama! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

Well, Mel, I am so glad you don't consider me a hoochie mama. That thought is making me crack up right now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You know, I picked that name because as a stay-at-home-homeschooling-mom-of-5-whose-husband-had-a-lover, I decided I needed a little pick me up. So instead of finding some unsuspecting guy out there to pick me up, I chose to give myself a little pick me up.

So I guess when you all read that sexymamabear posted, you are all rolling your eyes thinking, here goes another one of THOSE women <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Glad I made so many smile (and without even know I was doing it). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SMB,

You are so wise and a true inspiration to me and most likely other newbies.

Like Bob and Mel are cautioning you, be very very vigilant.

I made the mistake of forgiving and moving on (or so I thought) immediately after D-Days #1 and #2, thinking I was the highest example of Christian living. The MC we were seeing at the time who advised me ---- to let God convict her so she'll confess to her H ---- obviously knew absolutely nothing about affair recovery and withdrawal. That's why I had D-Days #3 & #4. (Details in my sig line saga.)

What did it accomplish? My H was the perfect reformed WS, SF everyday, spending time together 24/7, talking, laughing, playing, praying every day and night together and reading "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. I was euphoric, like you, thinking...what's the big deal? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

BUT......H had not seen my pain since I had stuffed it and disguised it as 'being forgiving and moving on'.

THEREFORE....H kept in contact with that OW nearly every day, trying to 'just be friends with no sex', but this time he got more creative about it so he was not detected. It took me a week the first time but 4 weeks the second time.....and I wasn't even looking....because I had 'forgiven and tried to forget'.

I even tried to be OW's friend after D-Day #3. (My ulterior motive was to try to help her improve her M so she would not need to respond to my H the next time he got weak. I had what must have been BS fog and it was almost as hard to overcome as my H's WS fog.)

Fortunately we found MB books and a new MC; we started recovery Nov. 10, 2006, 6 months after D-Day #1 and began re-building trust Feb. 10, 2007 after finding MB forums, exposing to OWH, and finding a new MC who is even more restrictive than MB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />.

I don't want to scare you, only caution you to evaluate your H's transparency and prepare yourself. At least you have posting as an outlet and a good MC. Both are blessings we did NOT have at first.

Regarding your name, were you DKG at one time?

Thanks,
Ace

Thank you Ace for sharing your story. I think I read some of your posts. What you went through is a haunting fear of mine right now. I have no reason to believe anything he tells me. I am trying to watch actions and take this a step at a time.

My name was DKT originally. So if you read those posts, then you've read my ENTIRE story so far.

MB has been a life line for me often through these few months. When I couldn't even think and was paralyzed with fear and pain, people here told me how to make it through the day. I know I will be posting more dark moments here, but it is so good to post a few brighter ones.

SMB,

I admire and respect you.....I was a SAHM for 3 years and made the biggest investment (DD27 & DS25) which will continue to be a blessing for a lifetime.

I cannot imagine how you were able to cope with all of this with 5 'little investments' to care for and shield. What a sign of strength you've exhibited and I join others in applauding you for your perseverance and humblenes and for allowing God to keep working through and in you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

When times get rough, keep focused on the big picture of 1) how your example will educate them --- and hopefully impact them for life --- regarding facing, succumbing and overcoming temptations....and 2) your testimony could inspire millions (or at least dozens) around here ---'here' potentially being the entire world! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Have you read princessmeggy's thread of recovery BEFORE finding MB? No time to link it but it's attached to her sig line and on the OT forum. It's very inspiring, too.

Again, I'm praying for you, DKT-RH-SMB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ace

Ace,

Thank you for your kind words. But I really don't feel I did anything except survive, just as you and everyone else here has done.

It was my 5 little investments (not all are so little, two are teenagers) that forced me to cope with the tornado I was in. And it was them that I stayed focused on, knowing they were watching me and learning how to deal with adversity and how to turn TO God and not run FROM Him. I hope now my H and I both can be a example to them about reconciliation, forgiveness, commitment, accountability, etc. The journey is long. I so want them to be able to look back on this in the years to come and see God's great works in all our hearts.

Yes, I did read most of princessmeggy's thread (boy was it long). Someone else here told me to check it out. It was a very moving thread.

Well, H's been home almost 2 weeks. It has been a good most of the time...in some ways a really good. But there are moments...ya know, panic moments, overwhelming pain moments, back-in-shock moments, he-doesn't-really-love-me-and-never-will moments.

So let me recap for you what has happened since he came home. As far as NC letter? This didn't go as I had hoped. Before he came home, he went to get some things he had stored in her garage, and to tell her he was going home and wanted no contact with her for good. He said he gave her a letter at that time. When we talked previously, I had asked him to write a letter that included NC for life. But I never got to the part of showing it to me and me mailing it. Soooo, he wrote the letter (as I had requested), before he came home. So, of course, he doesn't see a need to write another one. I so wish he would have done it the "right" way. I am concerned that if he sent another one it might appear to her as an invitation for more contact. You know, just contacting you again to tell you I don't want any contact. (Of course, that's assuming that an APPROPRIATE letter was given the first time.) I think if I insist on it, he would probably write it, just not sure if I should insist.

I know what your all gonna say...this is not a good sign. Right? I'm just not sure how to proceed on this topic.

Next concern, I asked him if she ever did contact him would he tell me. His answer...I don't know. He said nothing was going to change his mind about ending the A. But I know...these are just words. He made a comment about telling me and it affecting my frame of mind. I do believe that he might not tell me for fear of me getting really upset. He just doesn't yet get it...the total openness/honesty thing. I am hoping to keep addressing this until he DOES get it. Nothing would mean more to me than resting in the fact that he WILL TELL ME. Then I don't have to wonder/worry every day...did she try to contact him? I can know that unless he tells me she did, that she did not.

OK, on to what has gone well. He has been very attentive, thoughtful, kind, loving, and affectionate when we are together. We are more comfortable together than I ever expected we could be so soon. We have had lots of physical, non-sexual touch as well as SF. We have had good discussions about R. He says ILY often and has said all the right words to tell me his heart is really back home with me and the kids. There has been no unaccountable time (although I really cannot verify all time during work).

We had an assignment from our MC to identify ENs from a list he gave us (not nearly as complete as SAA). My H initiated us going through them when we were home and discussing them.

The most encouraging thing for me right now is that he started reading SAA all on his own. He is in the middle of the chapter about how an affair should end. So hopefully, as he reads this, he will begin to understand what it’s like for me and what needs to happen for us to really start recovery. I hope as he continues reading he will want to do that ENs questionnaire. I mentioned it to our MC and he asked us to stick with the one he gave us “for now”. But both of us felt some of our top ENs weren’t even on the list.

I started typing this a couple days ago, and didn’t get finished. So I am back now trying to finish it and post. Today is really hard. I have crashed big time and have cried most of the day. I had a night like this last week and was up for hours crying. Most other days have been going well. Then, BAM, I feel the despair, hopelessness, and agony that I felt before he came home. I’m tired today and haven’t been able to eat anything today. I guess I can expect to have these emotions come crashing in on me every so often. I just need to know that at some point, they won’t be so intense.

Thank you all for your continued support and prayers. You have kept me going when I wanted to give up and check out of life. I don’t have the energy to post as often as I would like, but I read daily.

This would be a deal breaker for me and a boundary I would not be willing to negotiate. Absolute honesty and openess, nothing less. This is how the affair got started and fueled in the first place, hiding, lying, secrecy, etc. I would not negotiate on this one.

THank you hopeandpray

I agree that it is essential. When we discussed it, he asked why it would be important to me. Well, my mind froze and I couldn't express how important it was to me or why.

Since then I have put my thoughts down on paper and am hoping to discuss it again this weekend. Here are my reasons that it is important to ME:

1. There can be no secrets that you have with her. Not telling me if there is contact is a secret and opens the door for more.

2. Because I can count on you to tell me if it happens, I don't have to worry every single day "did he talk with her?" It will give me peace of mind and closure on that part.


3, Knowing you have a plan in place in case of contact shows me that you value our marriage and my feelings and are willing to do what's necessary to protect our M.


4. I don’t want to rehash it every day, asking you, nagging you. (I have only asked once, but I want to ask EVERY DAY). If I can count on you to tell me, my mind won't dwell on it.

SMB,
It truly is a rollercoaster ride. There will be days where you feel so in love with him, so happy. The very next day you wonder why you stayed. But IT IS NORMAL.

And yes, the feelings will lessen in intensity all around. Time and what you do with it will make all the difference.


As far as his telling you if OW contacts...well maybe if you put it to him this way. What if she calls him and he doesn't tell you and then you find out on your own. It's a new secret between them. Something you weren't privy to. Trust will be lost again. Another betrayal.

He cannot be the judge of what you are allowed to know and of what you can handle. Only you can be. Maybe by reading SAA he'll start to see that, as you said.

And if she does call, he needs a plan. He needs to hang up and not talk to her. If it continues, change numbers. Most of the time, there is attempts at contact from the OW. Just prepare for them.

Yes you will get upset if she contacts. But you don't take it out on him. You tell him "thank you for telling me". Then you go off and vent here. Make it safe for him to be honest.

I think at this point if he gave her a letter saying it was over, I'd probably "wait and see". If any attempts are made then I would send NC letter like you have seen here before. I'd even mail it certified (that's what I did).


SMB you're doing good. Recovery is very hard. Sooooo many emotions to deal with. One day at a time.

hopefully you are fully protecting yourself during SF...your H is a risk to your life until he is tested negative for all STDs.

Also, the NC letter thing should not be flexible... it needs to be reviewed and sent...by you. There is no room for negotiation.

smb, I feel the same way you do.

The not knowing if there is really no contact drives me crazy. WH has a company phone & she has the number. I can't get that one changed. If I ask, he tells me he doesn't want to talk about her. He's gotten so good at lying that I don't know if he's telling me the truth about NC. My WH has been home since 5-31-07 & I'm still waiting for things to get better. Only thing is she went "fatal attraction" on him, threatening suicide so NC supposedly started 7-9-07. He hints that my asking about OW makes him think about her & that he doesn't any other time. Yea, riiiiight!!! I am going to use your list of thoughts (in my own words, of course) to try to explain to WH why I need to know this stuff. I hope it helps. I know that he kept the copy of trueheart's letter to WS's in the camper where he sleeps. I sometimes think I'll lose it before withdrawal is done.

Did you actually see this letter that he supposedly sent, or did he just TELL you that he sent it?

Every dime I have says he never sent nothin'.

This should be a dealbreaker, too. If he can't send the wh*re a letter telling her to get lost and just gets angry and defensive when his WIFE asks him to do so - well, what does that tell you?

Yes, he's saying and doing all the right things - except for this little teeny-tiny one.

Refusal to send a NC letter is one of the biggest of big red flags. Please keep your guard up.
Mulan

Mulan,

No, I did not see the letter. All I have to go on is what he is telling me. Yes, I know, doesn't count for much. And even if he did write one, my guess is that it wasn't the "type" that I would have been OK with.



I

SMB, if this is the case and your gut tells you this, then an appropriate NC letter is in order.

Out of respect for you, a letter should be written together and mailed BY YOU. That is the first step in rebuilding trust. He should also pledge to never be in contact with her FOR LIFE. And of course, you should be told. This is information about your life to which you have a RIGHT TO KNOW. He is the LAST PERSON WHO IS QUALIFIED TO DETERMINE WHAT IS OR ISN'T IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO KNOW. The rapist does not get to decide what information is "too upsetting" for his victim to know. You MUST know about any attempted contacts so you can PROTECT YOURSELF.

SMB,

My WH did the same thing for several months - ILY all of the time, calling me several times a day, acting happy, he even played a VM for me where OP was threatening to F his world. I thought we were totally in recovery and nothing to worry about. Five months later I find tht contact never did end. Be careful, they put up a good front....

SMB,

My H and I were both on the phone with that OW confirming No Further Contact after D-Days #1 and #2. H was being the perfect recovering H....remorseful, bad mouthing that OW, showering me with attention, dates, talking times, SF often, the works.

6 weeks later I found the "just seein' how she's doin" email account in hotmail that does not require a confirming secondary account....and they'd been drafting and deleting emails to each other....but they had forgotten to delete the most recent ones.

So when I typed in the addy I had found and made him put in the password, he finally did it, but said "see.....there's nothing there" while he clicked the sent and inbox files.

But he got nervous when I took the mouse and clicked into the draft file and ....Wah Laaaaa! Lookkee what we found!!!! The one I found said he would wait patiently for her if she would do the same.....that they might be able to meet soon. Aaaargh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Y'know, SMB, he wrote a no contact email that we both hit send on that very night. (#3) But because he did not make any of his usual typos, she thought I had written it. She admitted that to me a few months later when I was trying to be her friend....to help HER with HER marriage so she wouldn't covet mine.

Have you read my Mr. Romance Saga......all the sordid details are there.

Finally, after D-Day #4, when WH saw how upset I was, he offered to hand-write another NO-Contact letter, which we mailed to her PO box number after I confirmed it was not closed yet...and I included a copy of HNHN. She claimed she read it and learned a lot....but she lies, so who knows?

SMB, like Mel said, your WH should write a NC letter with you out of respect for you. If he doesn't want to, there is an obvious reason. He cannot begin earning the "F" for "Former WH" until he writes and sends the 'NC for life' letter and then follows through for months an years to come.

Please learn from my mistakes. False recovery sucks. I've had 3 of them and our M will not survive another.

Ace

SMB,

Do you want to feel safe? Do you feel safe? Do you understand what it means for a BS to feel safe?

Have you identified your personal and M boundaries to yourself and disclosed them to your H? Will he help you have real closure?

You will go through several more stages in your recovery. If you get a chance, read the link about the stages of grieving. It maybe a good time to show him Trueheart's letters. That is also in my sig link.

Watch his reaction to the letter. That may tell you where he is at in this recovery timeframe. You will both be traveling on it from different starting points and at different speeds.

I recommend you call Steve H @ MB for a recovery plan.

JMHO,
L.

Hey Sexymamabear,

Did your H write the NC letter? Have you approved it? Has it been mailed/delivered?

How's it going?

Ace

Ace,

Thanks for checking up on me. I must confess, I have been avoiding posting. This NC stuff is really getting to me. I just need to tell H that I absolutely NEED this, but I am running from this confrontation (yes, I avoid conflict, obviously).

We had our second MC session yesterday. I had hoped this would be dealt with more, and a treatment plan would be discussed. However, I think our C sees himself as a sounding board more than anything. He gave us an assignment last time to go over ENs (not MB list), which we did. And we discussed them again in session yesterday. So then he gives us an assignment for this week to practice talking for 5 minutes (one of us) while the other listens, then the listener restates what he/she heard. Then switch roles. This all sounds peachy, except, in my mind, there are more important issues right now. Like: NC, setting up accountability, implementing actions that will make me feel safe and begin to rebuild trust. When talking about cell phone records and other kinds of accountability, C tells me that although those things might be reasonable right now, I will at some point have to let that all go...I DON'T THINK SO. I don't intend to ever blindly trust again. That would be sheer stupidity.

My H continues to read SAA, and I am sitting back (thinking I am being patient, but am probably just avoiding conflict). I keep hoping that he will come to me and say, "hey I read such and such in SAA and I think we should do that." I realize, however, that I need to suck it up and approach him with what I NEED and stop waiting for him to figure it out.

I am considering changing MC. I met a lady through a mutual close friend. This lady, I'll call her J, was a BS about 4 years ago. She and H have recovered the M and are deeply in love. She told me some of the things her C required (sounds very MBer style--NC, accountability, cell phones, calendar, daily calls, no LB, even Plan A style while active A). She knows both counselors and really, really wants me to see the one they went to. It will be more challenging to see him in comparison to the one we see now, but I think we may be wasting our time with our present C. In fact, I believe I am going to get very frustrated with it all since he really isn't requiring ANYTHING. OK, maybe it's my job to require some things. But I want a MC who does expect something from my H.

Our MC has pretty much told me that I'm just going to have to get over it. Not in those words, but he doesn't seem to take the approach that my H needs to be actively doing things that begin to rebuild trust. He seems to take the approach that I'm just going to have to get to that point.

Ok, so I've talked myself into calling the other MC. He is quite a bit further away and he is not covered on insurance like our present MC, but I think he can really help us HEAL, not just move on. I will call today.

J also said that they went at least once a week and at the beginning twice a week. Our present MC sees us about every 2 weeks because he is so booked. Two weeks is a long time when it seems there is so much that needs to happen in this early stage.

Talking through this is helping. I have got to start taking action. I am going to get this rolling today! I will make new MC appointment today. I will write down thoughts to share with my H tonight that will include new MC and need for NC letter. Do I ask that we read SAA together or let him get through it on his own first? Do I request cell phone records now or wait for new MC (who will require this)?

Thanks for "talking me though" all this. I am a slow learning sometimes. Well, not really a slow learner...just a big chickensh]t I guess.

H has continued to be affectionate, supportive, attentive, and home a lot more often. I do feel we can get to the point of healing. But I recognize now that there are some actions that I am responsible for, mostly expressing my needs. I know I am not being fair to H if I don't express what I need to heal.

Just sent H a short email:

"I hope your day goes well for you. I will be thinking of you and praying that God will bless you in some way today.

I am hoping this evening we can spend a little time alone talking. Can we plan on that?

It was wonderful starting our day out together."


So, tonight I get some courage and state my needs.

Just left a message for the new MC. I am hoping he will be willing to see us before we leave on our family vacation next Thursday.

Now I just have to get my thoughts in order for conversation with H tonight. I think these three issues are all I want to cover:

1) Change of counselor

2) NC Letter

3) Plan of action if contact is made

Now I need to write why these things are important to me. If I don't write it down, I will lose my train of thought and my mind will go blank...duh, duh, duh, I dunno.

#1 Need C to help us design a plan to rebuild trust with active steps we can take to get there. New MC was recommended by someone who has personally been through this and healed their relationship.

#2 NC letter is for me. It demonstrates to me your commitment to our marriage and your willingness to break the bond between you and her. It is an act of respect toward me by putting my needs above all others and will bring closure for me in that area of our recovery.

#3 A Plan if contact is made is necessary to protect our marriage from secrets between her and you. Knowing that you will call me immediately demonstrates your desire to put our marriage first and that you want me to trust you. If I know that you will tell me, I can stop worrying/wondering every single day about whether contact was attempted. Plan needs to include that you will call immediately if contacted is attempted/made by her and that you will call me if you have desire to contact her. I commit to calmly responding to you and will appreciate your honesty and openness.



How am I doing here, folks? Should I write this out for him to read? (as I am a writer, that is my preference) or is that "taking the easy way"?

Orchid,

Thank you for responding. I value your insight so much.

Yes, I do want to feel safe; and no, right now I don't. Can you explain what it means for a BS to feel safe? That might give me clarity.

As far as boundaries, what kind of things does that include. Obviously, no contact--but we really don't ever know that for sure, do we? From what I have read here, many BSs thought they were in wonderful recovery, even with NC letters being sent, and still the A was going on. Another boundary would be honesty and openness, and not feeling like he needs to protect me from any truth or that any "small" truth is not that big of a deal--honesty and oppenness no matter what. What are some other examples of boundaries. I realize I need to come up with my own, but I need some ideas to get my mind stirring.

I will print out Trueheart's letter and give it to him tonight. I did read it when I read your post. I will go back and read the stages of grieving again, too.

I suggest you get $185. )or whatever it is) together for a counseling appointment with the Harleys. There are things that your husband needs to understand that he needs to hear from someone else.

Your recovery is a bit too wishy-washy for my taste. There needed to be a NC letter approved and sent by YOU. He needs to be an open book and give you his passwords, account for his time, and have a plan on what action to take if the OW contacts him.

MicheleG,

Thank you for your kind words. You have a very encouraging way about you that helps me know I am not walking alone.

I do continue to hope that his reading SAA will bring him to a point of understanding that not telling me about any contact is NOT PROTECTION, but rather another blow to me.

I will be talking with him tonight and would appreciate prayers for me to have courage to state my needs with clarity of mind and for him to grasp what I am sharing and be willing to meet my needs in a loving, committed way.

I dealt with the STD testing immediately. I have a long-term relationship with my OBGYN (6 high-risk pregnancies over 17 years) and he got me in the same day and called with results as soon as they came in. He also prayed with me while I cried in his office (with a stupid drape over my legs---ugghh!) He's a wonderful doc.

I will address NC letter tonight.

SMB


In the days, weeks, months to come, this would be a good thing for you to improve in yourself. I am also a CA. And so is my H. I know how difficult is to bring up touchy subjects. But if we don't bring this stuff up how will we ever communicate our needs? It's time for radical honesty with your H and with yourself.

Don't trade calm for recovery.

I think writing things down like you have is a good approach for CAs. There's no emotion or body language interfering with the message. (Some of the deepest talks I've had with H over this mess were via text.) It also allows you to keep your thoughts concise and to the point. I think men prefer that.LOL


P.S.
A little advice about A talks with FWS. Keep to the point when possible, keep it to a reasonable time limit (WSs have a difficult time discussing this...most hate it). So keep it as calm, short and "pleasant" as you can. Thank him at the end. This all sets up future discussions. He won't want to run and hide when you say you need to talk. KWIM?

My prayers are with you.

Heeeey Sexymamabear,

What's happening? How's it going? Looking forward for an update soon.

Ace

Hey Sexymamabear,

Y'been lurking around the MB woods lately? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How's it going? Please check in no matter what's been happening....we care.

Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

What Ace said.

OK SMB

Michele and I've been 'doin' da bump'. Pulled a muscle last week so I can't do da bump much longer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

On July 24, over 2 weeks ago, you said:


Later on that same day you said:


This post would indicate your vacation started Thurs. Aug. 2 but we never heard if you accomplished these 3 things or not.

If you're not posting because you're on vacation, that's great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But if you're avoiding conflict because things have gone south OR you just haven't gotten around to making the decision to act on all the fine advice folks have made time to help you with, we are all concerned.

Please check in either way. We'll all help you eat your words again.....like we did last time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ace

Ace & MicheleG,

I just got a big hug from both of you when I saw that you checked up on me. I have been lurking some, but wasn't ready to post. We just returned from a family vacation, where I did a lot of reflecting.

I did talk with H that night about my needs and gave him my letter. I was disappointed and saddened but not all that surprised by his response. Here's his response to each of my needs:

#1 changing counselors--he asked why and I explained my reasons. He said he would go to whomever I wanted to go to. (After much reflection, I sense his willingness is more about making himself look good to others than about finding the right person to help us)

#2 NC letter written for my sake, not for him or for her, but to help me--I already gave her a letter...a long letter explaining how I feel. I'm not going to do it again. (Yea, like I'm suppose to feel comforted that the goodbye letter was long and all about his feelings)

I asked if in the letter he told her he loved her. He said yes. I asked if he still loved her. He said no. He said he stopped the day he came home. Sorry, I can't wrap my brain around that one. You just turn love on and off??!! He also shared that he hadn't felt that "passionate love" for me for a couple years, but that he does now. How can that be? I feel it; I don't. Is this because I have been meeting his SF need well since April when this all came out, along with some other top needs. Is he going to check out on me when the "passionate love" waivers again? What about the intimate, committed, mature love???

#3 Commit to telling me immediately if contact is attempted--I really don't know how I will handle it if she calls. It depends on why she calls, what she says, and my (meaning me, the BS) state of mind. If she calls to tell me her dad died, yea, I want to know that. I just don't know how I will handle it. I could tell you I would hang up and call you, but I'm trying to be honest with you. I really don't know what I would do. (His response to this alarms me more than the NC letter. I guess because he has already told her he doesn't want any further contact and is 4 weeks into NC (I hope), I can put that aside at the moment. But refusing to commit to including me in on any contact shows me he doesn't comprehend the importance of openness and honesty and that he is still only going to let me know what he thinks I need to know--or what he wants me to know.)

#4 Read SAA with me (he has read through about half of it on his own)--If you really want me to, I guess that's fine. But I'll be honest, I'm not impressed with a lot of what he (Dr. H) says. (I asked for explanation) I don't like the way he uses the kids as pawns (referring to plan B), not even talking about your own kids. Come on, aren't we all grown ups. (I can somewhat see his point about this, as I struggled with this as well. But I think this was more of him grasping at something in the book so that he could dismiss the whole thing.)



The letter I gave him to read to open up our discussion listed these needs and why each was important to me. Needless to say, after this conversation, I truly began to question his commitment to recovery. It is apparent that he is not willing to do simple things to demonstrate his desire to begin recovery. He is still only willing to do whatever he wants.

It took me several days to process this discussion, as I still wanted to stay in my denial, hoping that we were at the beginning of recovery.

Question for you all...what is reasonable to expect from a WS right now? If he is truly NC, then I should expect a great deal of fogginess and withdrawal right now? Correct? (As a long-term recovering addict, I think he finds Dr. H's withdrawal comparison offensive)

So, should I expect much from him right now or should I just consider this all part of his withdrawal?

We did see the new C right before we left for vacation. I could sense my H's discomfort with him. But I feel hopeful that he can help us if my H is willing. About half way into the session, the C looked at H and said , "tell me about the A." H tried to be his usual self...very vague and gloss over it all. He said, someone from my past came in to work, we went to lunch, we started meeting and we had an affair." C asked, how did A develop? How often did you meet, where, etc. H became squirmy and we were running out of time. I think C was feeling him out to see where he's at. C closed with stating that we will find that his approach focuses a great deal on openness and honesty being key to our process of recovery.

Vacation was pretty good. We didn't talk about R at all. I could see H come and go between WS and the man I married. So refreshing when H was "my man". So heartbreaking when WS took over. I can't help but wonder if I can truly have back the man I married. I have been contemplating what God expects from me if the man I married never returns...just my own reflections, not really looking for an answer on that one...it would have to be between God and me.

I feel my H has come home because the small dose of reality hit him and it didn't feel good. I have 2nd guessed as to whether I made the right choice in allowing him to return home (I was the one who requested it, took him about a week to decide). Honestly, I wonder at times, if I really want to be married to him. Other times, I ache for a fulfilling marriage with him. I find myself, for the first time, considering the idea that someday someone else might adore me, love me, desire me. I just feel like he settled for me because I'm the one he has kids with, but that he still longs for her. This is a very painful place to be. Yet, I finally feel like the utter shock and disbelief is passing as I settle into the reality of my marriage...what it has been, what is may never be.

I find myself lately thinking about this: "If he came home for the kids, is this enough? Will I stay in a marriage for the kids?" My parents did and I thank them today for it. And I know they love each other. I saw my children's devastation, I saw their security ripped from under them, I was faced with their agony. He really didn't see it. If he did, it was just a small glimpse. All he saw was his own pain from being gone. And I am considering the idea that his return was soley based on his own pain and had nothing to do with anyone else.

Right now, I think he still feels entitled to having had the affair...I wasn't this or that, or didn't do this or that, so he had a right...blah, blah, blah. He feels sorry that he hurt me, but he has yet to be sorry for having sex with another woman, for breaking the vow he made to me for life. He told me he was crying out to God one day about the burden of breaking two women's hearts. Sorry, but I take great offense to OWs heartbreak being lumped in with mine. Hers doesn't come close. It can't. I have been this man's wife for 19 years. We have 24 years of history and 5 children together. He sat in the whirlpool and rubbed me while we gave birth to 3 of those 5. We have laughed and cried together, mourned the death of our miscarried baby, and so much more. How dare he lump this in with her losing him. AND when he left her, she got a long goodbye letter. I got..I haven't loved you for 13 years, I love her, I was just biding my time til the kids were grown BS. My heart has been ripped to shreds by the one and only man I have ever loved. She has been married twice and has had AT LEAST one affair. TOTALLY different women here and TOTALLY different depths of pain!

Where am I now? Most days, I still feel a deep love for him and a hopefulness. But I am looking at this realistically, knowing that he may not ever be "in it".

Do I just hang on and ride this wave for a while, waiting for this fogginess and withdrawal to clear? I think this C will, if nothing else, address our situation in a way that will help me determine my H's motives and intentions. I don't think he will be able to be wishy washy, vague, manipulative, secretive, etc. I spent some time talking with the person who referred this C, and she shared what the C required. I think it will be apparent in time whether my H will get serious about the M or not.

Obviously, his responses to NC letter and contacting me if contact is attempted are not at all encouraging. To me, this are simple things that don't take much effort, just willingness and commitment.

Ace,

While I was posting this long post above, I see you were checking on me again.

How sweet? I feel loved.

This is just my 2 cents...and I will admit to NOT having read your entire post because there were a few things that stopped me cold...

his FAILURE to commit to NC. He doesn't KNOW how he will handle her calling??? HUGE red flag.

his use of the word LOVE in a letter to her. That is NOT a NC letter. I am also exceptionally concerned over his lassion/love statements concerning you. Frankly, I think your WH is full of chit.

My question to use is...WHY do YOU keep lowering the price of admission to your life???

IMHO, this man should be plan B'd until each and every one of your conditions are met. This is NOT a negotiation...it is a surrender... an unconditional surrender...

SMB, your H is still very fogged out. That may be a result of withdrawal, but this will not work unless he agrees to do certain things, such as end contact for life and commit to spend 15 hours a week with you learning to meet each others needs.


SMB,this will not suffice. Any allowable contact is opening the door to the affair. He has to agree to end ALL contact. Your marriage does not stand a chance unless contact ends. RECOVERY=IMPOSSIBLE. This is not good enough, SMB. This in NO WAY provides you the protection you must have. Contact is a GRIEVOUS ASSAULT, as traumatic as a RAPE to you, and he cannot be so cavalier about the possibility of FUTURE RAPE. Sit him down and ask him to watch this 30 min video of Dr. Harley: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3261867


This is because your H does not AT ALL understand the TRAUMA his affair has caused to you, his wife. The reason Dr. Harley developed Plan B is because he had clients who had NERVOUS BREAKDOWNS and suffered YEARS OF POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER trying to deal with an affair. It is not good for children to have one parent who is lost in waywardness and the other having a NERVOUS BREAKDOWN. Many experts now counsel that there be NO CONTACT during divorce for this very reason. Dr. Harley is not the only one who knows the value of this.

Secondly, Dr. Harley has a GREAT MARRIAGE without infidelity. He has helped untold thousands of others recover bad marriages. Your H only knows how to screw one up. So it would behoove him to listen to someone who KNOWS how to save marriages, rather than take his own advice.

SMB, the core issue here, IMO, is that your H does not understand what he has done. He has minimized the impact of his affair. So tell him this, affairs are as traumatic as the DEATH OF A CHILD or a RAPE. It is the WORST thing that can happen to a person. So, for your husband to tell you that he may or may not resume contact with his mistress is the equivalent of telling you he may or may not be inclined to RAPE you again and destroy your life. No rational person could be expected to live under such a cruel mandate. In order for you to recover, he needs to TAKE STEPS to PROTECT YOU, not assure you that he may or may not destroy you again.

Instead of playing roulette with another counselor, SMB, why not try out Steve Harley? He understands infidelity and does a good job of coaching waywards. He will not waste a minute of your time and is worth every penny.

In the meantime, show your husband this link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3261867

Print up this article and hand to him: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

this is what it will take to recover your marriage: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Sexymamabear,

I do care. But I'm selfish, too. I bump and then pray that veterans like MEDC and MEL and others will teach you and me together.

PLEASE heed their advice. I've had false recoveries. Each one saps you more and more. We now have a tougher MC than Dr. Harley. If you want, please glean what he shares with us on my Trials & Smiles recovery thread.

Mel and MEDC thwacked me good when I started posting. Granted, my sitch was different than yours and I never stopped posting (except for the 2 weeks that I ended up calling Dr. Harley in person at Mrs. Harley's emailed insistence)....but I listened to all .... and now we are well on our way to recovery.

My H even reads over my shoulder on MB and offers suggestions without feeling the twangs of guilt that MB used to represent for him....maybe he'll even post one day.

Thanks for posting, Sexymamabear. Do NOT give up. You can do this......you are way ahead of many on this rollercoaster of 'seeking' recovery. Soon, if you follow through, you'll be on the rollercoaster...but not until he agrees to NC for life and writes a sincere letter to OW because he recognizes the pain he has caused you.

No matter what....please keep posting. We all care.

Ace

Just remembered,

My H and I emailed an NC letter (pre-MB) but OW thought I had written and sent it. Then, after D-Day #4, (H lied about being online seeing if "she was there and he could resisit writing to her), H offered to handwrite another NC letter after we had read SAA, and we sent it with a copy of HNHN to OW via certified mail.

The 2nd NC letter was his idea. He was committed to recovery. (The book was my idea.)

Ace

SMB,
I definitely agree with the others. Your H stating that he may or may not tell you if the OW contacts him is a sign that he may not be totally committed to saving your M. He is still speaking fogtalk. It means that he is still willing to keep secrets from you concerning OW. Secrets he & OW have between them, with you on the outside. He is still willing to be dishonest & betray your trust....bad sign.

Also, his so-called NC letter was definitely not a NC letter. It sounds as if it was more a "I love you and want to share my life with you, but can't hurt my kids like that" letter, which will most likely not convince OW that your H thinks he made a mistake and doesn't want to see her anymore. It sounds like "this is only temporary letter".

Be careful! Keep snooping!!

You are all saying exactly what I expected you to say. I think that is why I wasn't in too big a hurry to post. I knew what was coming, was already saying it to myself, but couldn't muster up the energy to come and post it all here. Sometimes when I post, it's like reliving it all. Sorry to have kept you hanging. I'll not do that again.

The way I see it, he's still in WS thinking, even if he's in NC. I am aware that I am dealing with a man who is not yet fully committed to our marriage and recovery.

However, I am not willing to Plan B right now. My kids went through he)) when he left, and I will not ask him to leave unless I am convinced that this marriage is over. I realize many of you may disagree with that, but I'm the one that looks in my babies' faces and has to explain to them what is happening. (2X4 me if you want). (My tone here isn't grumpy... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

From talking with my friend who referred us to our new MC (she & her H went through this about 3-4 years ago), it sounds like the new MC implements much of what is recommended in MB, although I don't know that he actually uses the materials. She told me he required daily calendars, multiple check in calls throughout the day, contact numbers of anyone he was with during the day so she could verify, cell phone records, openness and honesty about the A, and transparency.

I feel like I am at a place where I need to "wait and see". See if H is willing to be open & honest when MC asks the questions that he will, see if H is willing to DO what MC requires to be transparent. Time will tell. I don't have blinders anymore.

Yes, I continue to snoop and to be skeptical. For me, the cards aren't on the table yet, so I don't know if he's bluffing. But eventually, I will know.

Hope that makes sense.

Hi SMB,

Thank you for mustering the courage to post. We are here to help you. So sorry you seem to be intimidated.....please don't be.

I know that's easy for me to say. I have only been on MB for 7 months, 3 months longer than you....I remember the fear of being 'bashed' too well. But I have a different perspective on 2x4s.



Let's see if we can change perspective, SMB. Please do not take this as condescending, but let's use homeschooling your children as an example. (Not sure if you homeschool or not, but just pretend for now.)

If your child did not want to turn in an assignment because he/she was afraid it was not what you would expect from him/her, would that be good or bad? How could that child learn properly if the teacher could not ascertain what needed to be taught?

Your continuous posting will help us help you.....and you will be able to choose which path you undertake.

I look at 2x4s as badges of honor; someone cares enough about me to show me how close I am to the cliff's edge. They will not wait for me to plunge off and then say...oops, maybe I should have told her how close she was to the edge.

SMB, I am no expert, but I know your best bet would be to keep posting...like you said you would. But have the perspective that it's because you want to learn, not because you're apprehensive of being reprimanded.

Ultimately, the choice is yours, though. WE will always care, regardless what you choose. But we will tell you what the most successfull clinical psychologist who has saved thousands of marriages has discovered.....because our recovering marriages are proof that his principles work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Are we perfect? No. Did we all make the proper choices every time? No. Will we all make the correct choices in the future? Possibly not. But we are all working together to help each other.

Even if you chose something different from what others might have chosen, please do not think that we will think less of you. So keep posting.....many of us have changed our perspective in mid stream and things have come around quickly. You've experienced some of that already. Let's hope it continues.

Ace

My problem with waiting and watching a foggy WS is that you may start to resent him. Lose love for him as you watch him behave poorly.

There's no question...he doesn't get it.

He is not protecting you or your M at all. And he doesn't have an inclin(sp?) of the pain that you are going through with his questionable NC.

HE HAS TO BE TRANSPARENT!!!AND THERE CAN BE NO CONTACT FOR LIFE!

You should not accept less. I know you know that.

He's trying to negotiate to have things HIS way. He may or may not tell you, and he may or may not talk to her, blah, blah, blah. And the NC letter was no NC letter. ILYs are not part of a NC letter!

SMB, it does need to be an unconditional surrender.

I just see continual suffering for you in this "recovery".

Don't wait too long in this "wait and see" period. You deserve much more.


Keep posting. You're not alone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SMB,

I agree with Michele....she brought up a good point about your losing love for your WH and slipping back into having to gag on your words again.

Plan B may not be fun now so that's why WH would balk. But for the big picture future, Plan B may be what you need to salvage those sweet little faces as they grow.

If you lose your Love Bank balance, how will those sweet little faces handle the fallout?

Please consider giving WH an ultimatum soon. You really cannot afford to wait much longer.

We'll all be here for you. Make time to get your ducks in a row and if it's not needed because he de-fogs on his own, all the better. But if not, you'll be ready.

Keep posting SMB......we can all help you....as long as Michele and I don't have to keep doin' da sexymamabear bump for long. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ace

sexymamabear,

I don't know if I've ever posted to you.

I agree with unconditional surrender on points to begin recovery; the NC letter, transparency, and willingness to begin meeting EACH OTHERs EN.

The first false recovery that I had, I did not have MB, and we floundered during that 10 months and WH started an EA. After Plan B, another false recovery (1 month) mostly because he would not stop seeing OW, meeting her for lunch to hear her out, watch her cry about missing him, and so on and so forth. I told him to leave, and back to dark Plan B. When HE made changes, without my asking, begging, pleading or being angry, and came to me asking for his M and family back THAT was the right time.

If I had just followed MB to a tee, I could have avoided that second false recovery. With you, you never did Plan B, so i can't advise on what to do NOW. I can only say that acceptance of anything less that FULL participation in recovery, and a willingness to begin to understand and repair the damage will get you nowhere.

I, personally, drew up my boudaries and enforced them during my last false recovery, and it saved ME much pain and kept the LB from going into the red. I advise you examine what your boundaries are, and YOUR willingness to enforce them. Your boundaries are about your acceptance, not about making your WH conform.

I sincerely hope that you will mull this over, and I wish you strength in the coming days. Im sorry you have to deal with this, but you must.

Did ya have a good weekend, SMB? Just checkin' in with ya.

Ace

Ace,

Thank you for your perspective on 2X4s. It does make sense. I will keep that in mind when I post.

The weekend was relatively good. Nothing to report really.

We have MC session scheduled for Wednesday night. I will probably post again after our session.

The message at church was on faith, believing all things are possible with God. He talked about when we feel hopeless. I realized I have been feeling very hopeless this past week. I don't see the remorse in my H that is necessary. He just doesn't yet grasp the destruction he his actions have caused. I went up for prayer after the message. I just asked for prayer for my marriage, husband had had A, left for a little while, is now home, but not fully home emotionally. That was all I said. So when we started praying, he prays that my H will begin to comprehend the damage that has taken place, even that his heart will be broken over it. That he will see the destruction and truly feel remorse. He really hammered the need for remorse, even though I hadn't really gone into that. He prayed for discernment for me, and he prayed our M would be beauty from ashes. It was an overwhelming time of prayer.

Thanks for checking on me.

I understand exactly what you are saying, as I have even begun to feel it at times. I look at him sometimes and just don't want to spend the rest of my life with him.

I think that is because I still see the wayward in him and all the changes that he underwent when he became wayward. If I can have my H back, I know I want to spend my life with him. But the wayward personality he has taken on is so different from the man I have known for 20 years.

I contrast just last summer's vacation with the one we just returned from. Last summer my Hs cousin's son and his friend were talking about how important it is for Christian's to listen to secular music so that they can use it as an "in" to conversations with nonbelievers. My H spent over an hour in a very convincing debate about that not being true and how with all the choices of Christian music styles today, we have a better footing by introducing our nonbelieving friends to the Christian music in the style that they like. Anyway, he is very convincing whenever he debates, doesn't matter what the topic is.

So switch to this year. He is engulfed in secular music. We had to listen to it all the way down and back. And while we were there, he kept putting his CDs in even when others were listening to something different (We were with another Christian family). Many of the songs he nows loves sing about things that go against his personal convictions just a year ago. I am not bashing secular music, I enjoy much of it as well. It is the CHANGE in his personality that I notice. There is a contempt about him, or a rebellious attitude when it comes to music. It's like he wants to shove it in everyone's faces and challenge us on it.

Another change is that he swears in front of and AT my children. For 17 years we have removed swearing from our home, and this year, he is swearing all the time...using all kinds of words. In some families, this might not be a big deal. But since this has never been a part of my kids' lives, it is a big deal for them. Two of my younger kids have even said something to me about "those words" daddy uses. It is apparent they feel hurt by him when he uses them. This is an issue that I will confront very soon. I had hoped that as the fog lifted, this would wane. But since it has not, I will deal with it head on the next time it rears its head.

He now has all kinds of excuses for skipping out on church with us, too. Yesterday, when he announced that he was going to stay home to start his remodeling project (which I really want him to finish), I told him I remember a time when he commented on fathers who don't go to church and the impact it has on their children. He said yes, I'm sure it does impact them. This is just another example of his values taking a total flip flop.

Is this just typical of a WS. It seems that if they are a Christian, they would have to flip flop a lot to live out their hidden life. My H was a very stong leader in the church and looked up to by most as a Godly man, husband, and father. Of course, he has lost a great deal of respect and admiration from these same people.

Hello all,

I can't believe it has been over 2 weeks since I have been here.

Much has happened. Not good, of course. It seems no good will come from anything anymore.

We had an emotional MC session two weeks ago, and we didn't talk at all for a few days. I was so angry I couldn't speak. He put such a twist on our history during that session!

About 5 days after that session, he emails from work that he is going start looking for a place and would like to tell the kids himself. We email back and forth a few times and I call him. He says he should never have come home in the first place, he came home for the kids, no matter what he says or does his heart is not in this marriage. He says he is exhausted (don't know what from--he hasn't done any work on this marriage) and done.

He said he wanted to take that week's counseling session for himself or I could use it alone. I told him to take it. He said I felt counseling would help us work out some communication in our parenting (we always did great at that before!!!) he consider going with me to help with that.

So his counseling was over at 8 p.m. He got home at midnight. He didn't talk to me at all. So on Sun. I ask if he is planning to go to counseling again on his own. He says no, he will be finding someone closer to go to on his own. He then says he put a deposit on a condo and will be moving this weekend (that's tomorrow). He said he hopes my anger doesn't affect the kids like it did last time (I don't think it was my anger that affected him--IT WAS HIS LEAVING!!!!!''DUH!!!) He didn't like being excluded from their lives so much. Well, too bad!! He has contacted his lawyer again and is proceeding with sending financial papers to my lawyer.

He said, he just doesn't love me anymore and is done.

I asked if he was seeing OW. He said no. I asked if he planned to pursue that in the future. He said, "I don't know what the future will hold. Right now that relationship is so broken too."

Well, no kidding! Affairs START OUT broken and don't get fixed.

I am back at shock and grief. I have cried for days, and it just doesn't stop. I should have never let him come home. He was just beginning to hurt, and I let him back.

I still want my marriage and am praying that while he is gone, God will bring him to his knees. But I am not holding my breath. I now see how broken this man is. The more I watch, the more I see that it is him...not me, not our marriage...him. He is going to have to work on a lot of his own issues. I don't know if he will ever get past his mess. And now there is going to be an even bigger mess--a divorce.

I am preparing myself emotionally, financially, and legally for this divorce.

He said he found a place close to us so that he can be involved with the kids and hopes what happened last time won't happen again (me not wanting him around except for his picking them up on his weekend).

He said he plans to finish all the work on our house in a timely manner (kitchen and bath renovation), so that means he will be around on weekends working.

What now??? Plan A, B, or just let Plan D happen? How do you Plan B when he's here working. I thought we might just not be here when he is working. That would be good for me.

I honestly believe he never really came home with any intention of staying. I think my attitude when he left freaked him out. He got scared and it hurt to be away from the kids. I think he talked with his lawyer and reconsidered the money and leaving with a house undone and how that looks to everyone. And I think he came home to make himself feel better and look better. He can say he tried. He had time to smooth the kids over. And he thinks he had time to smooth me over.

I am so full of grief again. The anger is gone. I feel like the affair doesn't even matter anymore...but his leaving forever is killing me.

I will see the MC alone this evening and will continue to work with him.

I want my marriage, but not to this man. I want my husband, and I think he is too far gone to find.

My mom told me today, God will reward me one day for my faithfulness and for my trust in Him. A cousin told me to stop looking at what I should've done, and think of Job. He asked me, "What did Job do wrong?" I said, nothing. And he said, neither have you. This is actually my H's cousin. They have been like brothers over the years, but this has taken a toll on their relationship. He and his wife and family have been my greatest support and encouragement. They are family to me.

I am rambling so. I can't even remember what I have written.

Oh yeah, and I'm sick with a terrible respiratory virus. And am back on the infidelity diet (I was already down to size O). I know I need to get a grip. I will discuss this with C tonight.

ok, SMB, I do not want you to give up hope. We have seen far worse than this come back from the dead. It is usually not this easy, so this recent development is not surprising. He sort of tipped his hand earlier when he wouldn't assure you that contact had ended. That is usually a bad sign.

Can you afford to counsel with Steve Harley? Steve might be able to get through to him, but he would want to counsel with you alone and then your H alone. Sometimes he can get through to a WS. I think that you are ripe for Plan B, and Steve could help you do that.

I am very sorry this is happening, but please don't give up hope. This is FAR from the end!

Mel,

I do feel so hopeless. I just can't see him coming back, but I just can't believe he is really leaving me. The one thing in this life I have always been sure of was his love. And now, I just feel like my whole life is...I don't even have a word to express it.

I don't know about affording Steve Harley for myself. What I do know is that H won't consider it for him. #1 He "was not impressed with SAA" especially with Plan B stuff dealing with kids, and #2 He doesn't want to go to MC at all with me anymore--because he's "done".

I just feel so lost right now and so hopeless. I can't imagine there ever being a brighter day....ever.

SMB, a wayward who is not intent on recovery will HATE Surviving an Affair. Steve is very clever about getting a WS on the phone with invitations like: "tell him I need to talk to him to help you deal with all this."

Steve will assess your situation and GIVE YOU A PLAN. It is not marriage counseling, SMB. That is not what you need right now. You need help killing his affair and protecting yourself.

Please listen to me, there will be a brighter day AND THIS IS NOT HOPELESS. The devil wants you to lie down so the OW WINS, but you cannot do that. You have to STAND UP NOW for your kids. You CAN STAND UP. STAND UP. Remember, you have God on your side, your H and the OW DO NOT. They have already lost.

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13

I'd suggest that you go immediately back to a pitch black plan B again.

He clearly hated it. Which means it was obviously effective.

I'd tell him point blank that 'going back to that' was EXACTLY what's going to happen this time too. Make it clear that you're NOT going to be his friend going forward. That you have no intention of being part of his life if/when he divorces/leaves you.

Do you REALLY need him to finish the work in the kitchen and bath? Is it something that you can do on your own? Or perhaps talk with someone who can help teach you if you don't know how? If so, then tell him not to bother with coming by to fix those things...make it clear that if he moves out, he's NOT WELCOME BACK INTO YOUR HOUSE.

Step up and take ownership of YOUR life. Don't let him dictate these things to you. He's trying to manipulate you into the things that HE wants. Don't fall for it.

I NEED Plan B. I can see that very clearly. I am down to survival right now.

However, as for the house, kitchen is down to the studs. Electrician just left and plumber will be here next week. Most of it is being hired out at this point, but he is overseeing it all. He said he will be here Sun. to work on it. I do need him to do it. It is not something I can afford to pay for. He is paying for it all out of his funds. I don't think we are looking at longer than a month. He is busting his butt to get it done now because he wants out. He should've spent less time out with OW this winter/spring and this would've been done.

My parents are close by and I am thinking that anytime he is here we may go there.

He said he wants to take a couple kids with him Sat. when he moves some of his stuff.

SMB, first off, you have to understand that he is still in his affair. He is leaving so he can have his affair. He has probably been in touch all this time.

Secondly, you very much need to be in Plan B. But you have to get your ducks in a row quickly. For example, I would see an attorney first thing Monday and get a legal seperation that protects you financially.

You would want to also set up visitation with the kids and ask the attorney to ensure that the kids are NEVER exposed to his OW. <----this is real important.

The next thing on your list will to be expose this affair again. I would expose to all the same folks you did before, but this time add the OW's H and her family.

After about 2 weeks of getting all this in order, which will also give him time to start missing his home, I would go as black as night into Plan B. Don't allow him to come to your home. If your bathroom is torn up, then hire a handyman to get it back together. Or go to Lowe's and have them remodel it. But, he should not come back into the house, and you should NEVER see him while in Plan B.

Those are YOUR FUNDS, too. Do you not have access to his money?

I would also tell the kids he is leaving to assume his affair with the OW.

When he left the first time, he took half the joint account out and set up his own account. I have since set up my own account as well. He gives me a check every week (same amount as direct deposit used to be). This covers all our usual bills and expenses, as it is the same amount we were living on.

Also, oftentimes when we have done home remodeling and other large sum stuff, he would use business funds instead of our regular income. I'm not sure how he handled all that accounting wise. And yes, my lawyer is on top of this.

I pretty much am assuming this is the case. If it is not, I think it is definitely in the back of his mind.

SMB, contact your lawyer and have him help you do this. You can't be in Plan B and have your H coming into that house for weeks on end. You will have a nervous breakdown and he will get a FIX from coming in the house. You could get an estimate on what it will cost to finish that work, and your H can just pay for it.

Explain to your attorney that a well known psychologist, Dr. Harley, developed plan B as a means to protect victims of adultery from nervous breakdowns and years of post traumatic stress disorder. Women are especially susceptible to this, and Dr. Harley recommends only a few short weeks of Plan A. You have already done much more than that with this recent false recovery.

What does Plan B look like when you have kids. My kids just started soccer, and he plans to attend the games. He wants to pop in at their functions whenever he feels like it.

Also, we all study martial arts at the same place. I see him as my class is ending. And another night, I am there with the kids (and will soon be teaching a mom's exercise class at the same time). He usually shows up for his class shortly before we are leaving.

How do we not cross paths???

SMB, you look for creative ways to never see him. For example, in your Plan B letter, you ask him to respect your need for no contact and stay away from the soccer games. Or ask him to rotate them with you and only come to the ones that land on his visitation days.

If he shows up at your classes, politely ask him to leave and please respect your need for no contact. If he won't, then QUIT.

Look for creative ways to NOT cross paths.

SMB,

Your H is obviously cake eating like a mofo.

He wants a place nearby so that he can continue with his affair and have you and the kids in his life ONLY as much as he wants you all in it.

He wants to be the king of the castle when he’s there and then he wants to have his little adulterous lover kiss his as$ with sickening slogans of admiration when he’s with her.

He gets EVERYTHING that he thinks he wants like that and you get the shaft.

This is NOT an acceptable arrangement with you is it?

That is why you should put plan B on in full Tetnicolor.

You will be protecting your love for your H while this alien space ship warped creature continues to find himself without hurting you anymore.

You open the door so that he can hurt HIMSELF only.

Do not let your kids help him move out. Let them know that to help him move out is to help him move into a place so that he can continue being an adulterer.

BTW refer to his relationship with OW as adultery only. That sometimes reaches into the dark void of waywardness to find a ray of light within them.

The decision about the kitchen is yours of course, but you could insist that he pay for all of that on top of everything else that you are going to get out of him during the D.

If I were in your position I would file for a fast track separation anyway so that you can protect yourself financially. Let him pull the trigger on the full blown D though.

I’m sorry you are going through this. Keep your chin up and take care of yourself… EAT EAT EAT. And no alcohol.

I'd consider talking it over with the older kids. Ask them to choose when they want who to attend their events. Explain to them what plan B is, and why you're doing it. Explain to them how much it will hurt you to be in the same places as your WH. And ask them to help you to work out a way so that they are happy with the situation...work out a 'schedule' for when they'll be with him vs with you.

This is exactly what I was considering in my situation when I was being pushed to a near plan B...

On the martial arts thing. Talk with your instructor. Explain to him that there are issues with the class schedules...heck...EXPOSE the affair to him and explain to him why you don't want to be around WH. Ask him if there's any way he could work with you on this. Perhaps you could go to class 15 minutes early and leave 15 minutes early? Or attend on different days? If flat out says he can't do anything, ask him if there are any other schools that teach the same/similar styles that you could 'try out' for a while during the time you're sorting this all out.

SMB,

My heart breaks for you. I have been praying for you. You have the best guiding you and we're all here for you.

Ace

I am deeply sorry for your pain. IMHO, this man is no longer worth holding on to...he is a hollow person and a really bad father at this point.

Do everything you can to go totally dark on him and contact a lawyer asap. All signs point to divorce here and you will want a bull dog attorney to see to it that this adulterer gets everything he has coming to him. IMHO, you should place no faith in this "man" from this point forward....never again lower the cost of admission back into your life.

If he ever removes his head from his asss, insist on a post nup and a polygraph as he has shown that his word is worth nothing at all. I also hope that you have protected yourself and refrained from sleeping with him. If not...please get yourself checked out as soon as possible.

You and your children deserve better than the man they call dad. One day you will be in a very happy place and would never consider taking back a pos that would treat his family this way.

Good luck.

MEDC

as far as the MA class...expose there and most likely they will ask your WH to relocate. My instructor would never have tolerated that kind of behavior disrupting his teaching.

Thank you MEDC. Often I cringe when I read what you post to me, because I have not been ready to give up.

And the cost of admission will never be lowered again. You all have been right about him all along. I wanted to believe we could make it so badly that I let him home without requiring what should have been. That won't ever happen again. If he ever decided to come home, and IF I have anything left for him then, well, he WILL jump through whatever hoops I place before him or he won't be coming back.

But I really don't think that I will be in that place. I think this is headed to D.

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, this is not an acceptable arrangement with me any longer. I just wanted to believe so badly. But I can't anymore. Everyone here kept telling me the truth from the beginning.

This was one of the first places I did expose. I wanted the instructor's to know what my children were dealing with at home. Plus, my H is an instructor there. It is a Christian organization and they have struggled with what to do about this situation. They considered asking him to leave, but not all were in agreement. I was told by the highest ranking person there, that it was "whatever I need". When he came home, I think they all felt that since he was working on things (yeah, right), that he was heading in the right direction.

I will talk with them again. I know that he has lost respect from all who are there. They all know and love our family. They know what kind of wife and mother I am, and they cannot believe that he has done this.

Honestly, I think he will check out of there anyway eventually. Over the past few months, he has found many reasons to get all in a huff about things there. I believe that's more about his not being comfortable there anymore. He was so respected and admired by everyone for the husbnand and father he appeared to be.

MEDC,

What MA do you study. My kids do Okinawan karate and weapons, H does Akido, and I do Tai Chi. I just began learning the fan in Tai Chi. I LOVE IT.

SMB,

I am so glad you were brave enough to post here again in spite of your fears.

Take care of yourself.

Set up a plan.

Organize your support sysem.

Realize that "life as you knew it" may be a victim of the "life's just not fair" disease....and your childen may be innocent victims in the fallout.

Post to seek info and vent on MB, even if you fear what you might hear.

Call Dr. Harley's son, Steve or daughter Jennifer for help and ask the attorney to have WH pay for it. It's what you will need for your sanity to care for your children during this difficult time.

Know that we are all here for you in your personal recovery, regardless what he chooses to do.

I'm praying for you.

Ace

I have that effect on many people. I am sorry that I come across so bluntly at a time when you might not be ready to hear it.
It is difficult when you are in the middle of things to see the whole picture. I once was where you are now at and I thank God for the people on this site that were very willing to call a spade a spade. They helped me more than I can express. Others here have the soft approach covered pretty well...so I usually don't mince words...but I always care.

I am sorry for your pain...even though divorce is not the goal of this site or of a marriage...sometimes, it is the best thing. Unless your H does a 180, it will be the best thing for your family...living through this stuff year after year is very taxing. And bottom line is...you do not deserve it.

Yu asked what discipline I study. Krav Maga...very unlike what you do I am certain.

I am sure though that when you bring the latest concerns to your instructors that they will speak with a more unified voice than they have in the past.

I wish you and your children peace and happiness.

Ace,

I am so fortunate to have the support system I do. I am SURROUNDED by people who love my family and support me in whatever way I need to proceed. I exposed to most everyone when we separated the first time and were heading to divorce. It seemed best to let people know, since it wasn't like we were trying to work it out.

I am going to think through a plan this next week or two. I want to get Love Must be Tough. I will call my lawyer again to discuss visitation and finances.

I think this second round of shock is wearing off. I ordered pizza for the kids last night, and I was able to eat again. Sleep is going OK. We will start homeschooling next week and I have the kids involved in some new activities to keep us busy.

Counseling went well last night. I had cried most of the day and while I was at counseling. But when I left, I felt a little bit of peace. C reminded me that H is in a spiritual battle. He said the more I can keep my equilibrium and level-headedness, the better. He said if I am emotional I can be a distraction H can focus on to tune God out. That made a lot of sense to me. I think I need to practice some of that reverse babble.

IF he ever has that radical surgery, PLEASE, PLEASE remind me to insist on these two things, MEDC. Even if you have to go back and get this post and quote my words for me.

If he ever agreed to those, I would know it was for real.

SMB,

One thing to keep in mind is that your H is not any more horrible than any other WS.

They are all horrible when they are a WS.

We’re talking lying, cheating, stealing, manipulative, dishonorable, abusive, self indulgence on a baffling scale that shocks everyone.

But there is always hope.

And let me tell you from experience that quitting is easy.

Fighting for your M is the high road!

As long as your H isn’t doing something that is physically abusive to you and the children then he still has the potential to be a good H in the future and is someone that you can still be hopeful of.

Stay with the martial arts. It’s very good for you; in ways that are more than physically beneficial.

Any decent Aikidoka would frown at your H’s choices. I would refuse to Uke for him if I had knowledge of his A. There is a social aspect to most martial arts. They aren’t just robots training on the mat.

Plan B, lets you be in charge of you and your emotions. It puts your train’s engine back under the control of a trusted engineer; yourself.

It gives Mr. Headupownass a chance to go work through his own problems. Alone. He only damages his own soul when he is ejected from your life like that.

I will humbly disagree with Plank here. That is not easy for me to do since I respect him so much. But I have seen WS that are very different in my time here. I also do not agree that there is always hope. Usually, yes...always, no. Yes, they are all horrible when they are WS....no doubt. But there are degrees of horrible...not a cookie cutter in the least.
There is nothing dishonorable about letting go of an abusive partner. Taking the high road and letting years slip away is not always the samrt thing to do. IMHO, sometimes taking the high road means leaving the trailer full of crapp behind.
I am not suggesting that there is no hope with your H...there may be. But please keep your eyes and ears open and recognize what you are truly fighting for. Some WS are worth the effort...other simply are not. SMB, only you can decide this for yourself....but make sure that your WH shows you the care and respect that you deserve before you let a man that would do these things back into your lives again.
Plan B is a great option for you right now...very, very dark. Don't let this man take anything else from you.

Well, just got back from a morning at the dojo (karate school). Kids had weapons testing and H sat on the panel of judges. I wasn't really expecting him there since he told me yesterday that he was going up to his dad's cottage for the night to pick up some things for his new place (and he was staying the night there). I'm not really that stupid. My guess is, he and OW spent the night together. I smelled perfume on his shirt one day this week and one day last week. Could have been his mom or sister, but he lost the privilege of benefit of the doubt. From now on, when in doubt I will assume the worst, until PROVEN otherwise.

It is a weird calm today. I am looking forward to him being gone. I know now that this is not about me or my marriage. My H is a confused, messed up man who, because he has been sober for over 20 years, thinks he's all fixed and everyone in the world but him is co-dependent. In fact, he considers any sign of love or sacrifice because of love as co-dependency. I really don't need that anymore.

I can't imagine him here any longer. I am changed. He is changed. And I want something better. Can he become better? Only if he is willing. I have had at least 5 people who know him and have talked with him tell me that he is in denial about all the effects of this and is full of self-entitlement and selfishness. I don't believe that will change for a long time, if ever. I think he will pursue this divorce aggressively. Boy, is he going to have a shock next week when my lawyer contacts him. I am going to have a temporary separation document written that is VERY, VERY descriptive about when he has the kids so that our paths will cross as little as possible. I will sit down with our schedule this week and hopefully find ways to eliminate ANY path crossing. I want my financial support in writing right now and I want him to hire the work out for the house.

Seeing him this morning, I realized that I MUST get things in order. He can't just take my kids whenever he feels like it. Boy, do I now understand what Plan B is all about and why it is needed.

This afternoon while I was gone, H moved his clothes and a few other things. I am really feeling a peace about this today and tonight, like I am glad he is outta here. I feel like I am going to have a good life without him.

Sure, this is probably a temporary state of mind; but I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts. He has hurt me so much that I think I am really done.

I feel like I'm in the calm space of the eye of a storm. You know, where all around it is raging, but right where you are, there is quiet...an eerie quiet. A quiet where you know that soon the storm will move and you will be crashed with monster waves and wind, but that right now, there is nothing but calm.

I think it's time to fill my new extra closet and empty dresser with my stuff. Boy do I have a lot more room. When H left the first time, I left it all empty.

SMB,
I have no advice at this point. The experts have told you like it is. And it seems that you feel it too. I'm sorry you had to go through this false recovery. My heart goes out to you.

These A's are truly about the WS.

So fill that closet up and hunker down in a very dark plan B.

And of course....keep posting.

I am praying for you, SMB. You are on the right path. If you will get all your legal issues in order FIRST, we can discuss EXPOSURE and then Plan B. I think, strategically, 2 weeks would be a good time to go DARK. By then, some of the novelty will have worn off and reality will begin setting in for him. He will be missing his home life.

In the meantime, I would not allow him to expose your kids to his affair and TELL HIM THIS. Tell him under no circumstances are the kids to ever be around his adultery partner because she is not a FIT ADULT. [use the term "adultery partner"] Express to him that the kids need to be protected from his adultery.

The reason this is important is because a wayward will use the kids to normalize their affair and get the kids adjusted to the OP. It makes the affair much easier if they can bring the kids around the OP and gives the affair a false air of respectibility. This is very morally confusing to children.

Telling him this also sends the message that he will have to keep this ho under wraps, that she is not decent enough to consort with children, etc.

Protect those kids from his affair at ALL COSTS, SMB.


Have your lawyer do all of this. Tell him you want him to be the MEANEST SOB in the county and to SQUEEZE the hale out of your H. Don't negotiate anything with your H DIRECTLY, have your lawyer rip his NADS OUT. Your H is under the illusion that abandoning his family for his paramour will be EASY; your lawyer needs to DISABUSE him of this notion.

He needs to name adultery as the reason for the abandonment and even name the OW in the papers in some way. Perhaps he can have her called as a witness as others have done here. This will be a much needed wake up call for your fogged out H.

And when your lawyer does this and your H calls up angry [if it happens before Plan B] just say "oh my gosh, i didn't realize he would be so brutal. I just leave all that boring legal stuff to him"] In other words, let the lawyer be the BULLDOG instead of you. But your lawyer needs to be meaner than a junkyard dog, SMB. Those are the kind of conseqences it will take to RUIN THIS AFFAIR, so do not go easy on him!

And lastly, in the next 2 weeks, focus on the best PLAN A you can muster. Be calm, rational, inviting, and attractive. Your behavior in the next 2 weeks will be the last thing on his mind before you go dark. You want it to be pleasant so he will have something to miss when his affair crumbles.

And most of all, remember this, SMB:

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13

Does this matter if I live in a no fault state?

Mel you never fail to amaze me with your words of wisdom.LOL

Great plan.

I don't know so I would check with your attorney and let him know that you want to make this as messy and difficult as possible. Ask him if your state has any legal action you can take against the OW, such as "alienation of affection" suits.

Many attorneys only want to facilitate an amicable divorce, SMB. YOU DO NOT WANT THIS. Because you do not want a divorce. You want to drag this out and make it as difficult as possible for your H. So, your goals may be different than your attorneys, so make sure he understands your goal, and is willing to comply. Remember, he works FOR YOU.

You also do not want to ever agree to any mediation schemes, which only serve to faciliatate a divorce in the easiest possible manner. Here is what Dr. Harley says about that:

thanks Michele, glad you are here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was under the wrong impression. From doing a search for my state laws, it appears that a dissolution is no fault, but a divorce can be no fault or fault. I'll keep reading.

Well, you want to file for adultery and abandonment,SMB, if you can, naming the OW. Try and get her called in for a witness to testify under oath about her adultery with your H.

In other words, LOOK for creative ways to cause as much conflict in the affair as you can. Your enemy is not your husband, but the AFFAIR, so you must be clever and strategic in your fight.

I would also consider paying her a little visit and saying something similar to what Dr.Harley advised another BS:


You could also inform her that she would never be allowed to be darken the doorstep of your inlaws. She would never be accepted because of the adultery. That will cause her to question the reality of a future with your H.

Mel... I couldn't have said it any better myself....

ah...but that is assuming that a man that has to come get his clothes when his wife isn't there actually has nads to begin with. He sounds like a coward and a fool and frankly not at all worthy of a real woman.

He was coming whether I was there or not. I chose to find something better to do.

gotcha.

I didn't finish my post...I am so tired.

I also wanted to say, but yeah, you're right...not worthy of a real woman.

I'm going to bed, all. Thanks for continuing to reply to me. What an incredible journey I have found myself on.

I am back to wondering how I will face every other weekend without my children....just because he gets the option of leaving.

Good morning all,

I continue to feel the calm peace I had yesterday. We will head to church late this morning, then travel about 45 minutes to pick up daughter from sleep over, then home for awhile, then out to a bonfire with good, supportive friends.

H will probably be here to work on remodeling. He said he'd be here Sun. morning. I may find something else to fill in the gap this afternoon to avoid seeing him...maybe grocery shopping after picking up daughter.

Melody,

I saw on someone else's post, a link to Frank Music's site. I went there and sent an email asking for help. In June, I exposed to everyone relavant in H's life, but have not been able to locate OW's H. I have her home address, phone, and cell phone. I found their house for sale online (as H said they're awaiting the sale of their home). I did intellius and have his name, but have not been able to find a number for where he is now living. I called several numbers listed on my intellius report with people of his name, but none of them were the right one.

The only exposure I have left is on OW's side.

[quote} Many attorneys only want to facilitate an amicable divorce, SMB. YOU DO NOT WANT THIS. Because you do not want a divorce. You want to drag this out and make it as difficult as possible for your H. So, your goals may be different than your attorneys, so make sure he understands your goal, and is willing to comply. Remember, he works FOR YOU.

[/quote]

I think my attorney is preparing for a battle anyway. He is expecting H has money "hidden" as a business owner. And there have been many things the business paid for for our family or me that lawyer said needs accounted for and added onto income H reports. But we are also in a waiting mode, because we need H to live in the county he just moved to for 90 days before we file there. Attorney said that my county is not kind to wives, and this other county is MUCH better on child support/alimony.

The only struggle I have right now is whether I want to fight to save this marriage. Even IF he left OW and had no feelings for her any longer, and IF he came home and really was loving toward me again, I don't know if I desire that anymore. So much has happened and been said...

I know that an intact family is best for kids, I know that the damage of divorce will last forever, but having a marriage with all this baggage???? A clean break is starting to seem a good place. I don't know, I am rambling. I suppose if he came to me, humble, TRULY remorseful, and willing to do EVERYTHING, even above and beyond what I need, well, maybe he would tap those feelings in me again and it would all come flooding back.

A friend told me that if God works a miracle in H's heart, God will also give to me what I need to come back to this marriage.

I just don't know if I could want it...but then I feel, it isn't about what I want, but about what God wants. I did marry for life and meant it.

Oh well, none of this matters right now, does it? I don't expect him to come home ever. He has hardened his heart so much.

Son just told me that last night when dad called to say good night, son asked when they can go hang out at his new house and spend the night.

Dad told him maybe today. Well, he better think twice! I have made plans for our family.

Does he really think he can just come and get these kids without checking with me???!!!

He took two of them yesterday when he moved his stuff. We were at the dojo, and he asked if they wanted to go with him. They came over asking, "Can we go with dad?" all excited. That isn't happening again.

I cannot wait to discuss this with lawyer and get this all down in writing. He is NOT going to be in and out of my life whenever he feels like it. He chose to leave. He says, I'm not leaving my kids. I'm thinking, uh, duh, do you live in the same house they do. If not, then you LEFT YOUR KIDS!!!!!!!

You can't move out and be anything more than a visitor. What is a visitor??? Someone who doesn't live in the same house!

OK, that was a just a short break from our regularly schedule show... We now resume calm peace.

SMB,

This is a long shot, but did you try www.zabasearch.com to find current information on OW's H?

Good luck and I hope for the best for you and your children.

LC

SMB, it is the most surreal experience I ever had. Remember, though, I had 30+ years of a detached marriage and was so miserable I wondered how I might be able to 'get H to do something to justify my getting out'. After his A, when he chose to de-fog, feelings of love did not flood "back" for me, but began to develop anew on their own......gradually. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


I think your friend is on the right track. It will be different for every couple, though.


I was sure I did NOT want it until DS25 challenged me and said to "fight for our family".(On D-Day #1, WH had said he would agree to a D if that's what I wanted) 3 more D-days later, we still are fighting for our family. We often, however, are fighting against triggers and memories...which is a difficult battle when they constantly challenge whether or not you've made the right choice. Plank and MEDC have given you very viable options that you'll have to decide which fits your sitch better. It's your choice.


It's OK to never expect him to come home. But don't discount the miracles of God that can and often do happen. God's love can soften the most hardened of hearts.

What do you want, SMB? Realize that this could change sooner or later. Be open to God's leading and lean on your awesome support group.....and please keep posting. (I don't mind digging to find your thread to bump, but I confused myself when you began posting on the 'other thread' I had forgotten about! Thanks for acknowledging it.)

Still praying for you,

Ace

P.S. Mel, (and others) thanks for your commitment to help me, SMB and others all these years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SMB, this is one of the reasons you need to go into Plan B. You are too emotionally battered right now to make any such decision about the future of your marriage. Don't even think about it. Simply go forward with the plan to protect yourself legally, expose the affair, and then go into Plan B. Don't burn any bridges, just go forward as if you want to save the marriage, and then you can decide later. When you DO decide, hopefully the peace and quiet of Plan B will afford you the sane mind and calm emotions in order to make a good decision for all. But you can't make such a decision in your current mental state.

I think you can cause huge conflict in the affair by exposing to the OW's husband and her family. Do you have this information? Exposure is like chemotherapy to cancer.

thanks Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow....from this perspective, I can the beauty of plan B. Not literally, as nothing associated with this A stuff is pretty.....but the future focus of why/how plan B works.....to preserve and protect.

I don't understand all of its implications or how it plays out in day-to-day life, but I can continue to bump and encourage.

How did things turn out yesterday, SMB?

Ace

Mon. eve update...

I have continued to feel this calmness. I wonder if this is what it feels like when you know you are done??

Sunday we went to church, then picked up daughter from sleepover, then took all the kids with me to grocery. I was hoping H would not be here when I got home, but thought that he might be since he said he was coming over to work on house. He was here. He started barking orders to the kids about picking up stuff in the yard. It was as if he thought he could waltz in here and resume his position as the authority in this place. What an idiot! He must think I am a real wimp that he can walk all over.

The kids and I had plans that evening to go to some friends. But I loaded them up early and we went to my parents for dinner. I decided H isn't going to use home repairs as an excuse to hang out at my house. I can't just go hang out at his place for the weekend, so what makes him think he should be able to do it here.

IT IS BOUNDARY TIME!!!! Welcome to the real world, baby.

Today we had plans to spend the day at another friends (I have so many wonderful friends who have an open door policy for me and my kids). We were just getting ready to leave when H calls. He says he's going shopping today and would like to take one of our boys with him (he already knew we had plans.) I say, "Uh, no, we have plans." So he talks with each of the boys. My daughter refused to talk to him. She also is refusing to go to his house next weekend (or any weekend). I expect she will soften a bit in time, but then again, she has been known to hold resentments for quite awhile.

So we spend the entire day with friends. My oldest son had other plans. I get home and oldest son tells me H stopped by after we left and before son left. Now H knew we were gone, because he had talked to the kids on the phone just an hour before and they told him we were leaving right then. This really p(sses me off that he feels totally entitled to come into my home when I am not here and without my permission.

So I will call lawyer first thing a.m. to set up appointment to get formal separation taken care of. I need to address:

1. Finances--check will be mailed on ___ day of every week.
2. Visitation--days and times
3. Holidays
4. Home repairs--I would like to get estimates and he can pay for what still needs done--he will not do any further work

5. Deadline for getting all of his things out of here (I'm thinking this week).

6. He is not to enter my home ever when I am not home and without my permission.

Is there anything else you all can think of that I have left out?

That will work BEFORE Plan B. When you go into Plan B, you request that he NEVER enter the house and change the locks. You DO NOT want him sauntering into your house while you are in Plan B.

Am glad you are feeling calmer today, SMB. This will all work out!

Mel,

I have no Plan A left in me, especially when he is waltzing in my home like he still belongs here, thinking he has say.

I just can't do it anymore. I need to be dark right now. And not for my marriage, but for my sanity. I don't feel there is a marriage any longer. Right now, Plan A feels like a betrayal against myself.

I changed the locks the first time he left. When he came home, I left a key for him on the dresser. Three different times I told him it was there for him. And he never picked it up. I know why...he never planned to stay.

So, H does not have a key. What he does have is oldest son who let him in today. Son didn't know not to. H loaded some stuff from garage and that seemed acceptable to son because he sees this stuff as "dad's".

After I see lawyer, I will have to discuss the boundaries with my kids.

Thats ok, SMB, thats something you can deal with when you go into Plan B. Until then, I can't think of any reason why he shouldn't come in.

In fact, it is a GOOD IDEA for him to come inside whenever possible in the next couple of weeks. When he does come in, be as pleasant as possible and make the house as warm, clean and inviting as possible! That should be the last thing on his mind before you go dark. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I finally REALLY get the purpose of Plan B. I just don't know that I am doing it for my marriage...it is more about my sanity.

There is something peaceful at this point about having him out of my life. I did not feel this at all the first time around. I felt hurt and angry, not at all peaceful---ever.

Mel,

See above. I have no Plan A left in me. I cannot do it anymore. I don't want the pieces back together. I think we will be better without him. He won't be, though.

I want to get my boundaries set, and I want to be dark forever.

How do you all handle goodnight calls for the kids?

Some nights he calls to say good night. I was considering telling him he needs to call at 7:30 to tell them good night. The younger ones go to bed at 8:00. When he calls later, it just delays bedtime or interferes with me tucking them in.

Honestly, I would prefer not to even answer the phone. But that's not what is best for my kids, I know. So I am trying to figure out how to make this work for them and me.

Also, if I know what time he is calling, I can have one of the kids answer the phone instead of me.

Soccer games are starting this week. I am wondering how to be dark when I expect H to pop in at some if not all of the games.

I need to hear how to be dark with a H who lives close by and has always been the type of dad to be at his kids' activities.

I would really like to move....faa, faa away. But I have such a wonderful support group here, I'd be crazy to leave.

ok, SMB, his affair won't last forever and neither will your anger so you can't afford to leave a bad taste in his mouth before you go dark. You have managed all this for this long, you can manage about 2 more weeks of Plan A before you go DARK. I KNOW YOU CAN! This way when his affair crumbles, and it will, he will remember how nice it was with you.

And you may decide you don't want him back! But you can't make that decision NOW in your current mental state. That decision needs to come AFTER you have been in Plan B awhile and have regained some peace of mind and sound judgement.

So, even though you don't FEEL like doing any Plan A and would rather tell him to go to hale, please humor us and just do it. I just don't want you to burn any bridges right now while you are under duress becuase your emotions are in charge today and they are your worst enemy.

Oh, Mel, you ask so much of me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I understand your point, but I keep hearing his words and I want to protect myself from that pain again.

Are you proposing that I allow him over to work on the house, allow him to hang with the kids, visit with him at the soccer field, blah, blah, blah??

Do I still see my lawyer and get this paperwork done? Do I tell lawyer not to deliver for two weeks?

What exactly do you expect of me, Mel??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I just want it all to end and to move on without him. And right now I can't find the anger or the hurt. I just feel...detached.

One more for my list to the lawyer:

Children will not be exposed to other woman.

I know that feeling.....had it for nearly 30 years. It could be a protection mechanism. You should be able to Plan A in the midst of feeling "detached" so that's possibly a good thing.

Jump into a time machine, SMB and allow youself to create the perfect dream.....maybe one where the man (before he became your WH) was the man of your dreams and treated you like a princess.....honoring you, cherishing you, being committed to you and your entire family.....dream. (It's difficult when your love bank has been depleted as far as yours has, but forece yourself to dream anyway.)

Then reverse to two weeks from now. Visualize that you've acted like that princess....being gracious, cooperative, loving (??!!!) and kind.

Then disappear. <Poof!>

Then "detach" again and go dark.

When you can visualize and execute a perfect Plan A, not only will your Plan B have a better chance of being effective but two other effects could occur:

1. You will have done the best you could do to make that dream come true.

2. If it doesn't happen, you will have done your best to try to work the process and will be able to move on knowing you make the most of all your resources.

Quitting now would create an "I wonder if" mentality that could haunt you forever.

Keep posting and remember we're all here for you.

I'm praying for your peace,

Ace

Here's what I have written up to give to my lawyer. Let me know what you think.


Finances

A check for $____ will be mailed on Friday of every week.


Moving

Husband will remove all personal belongings from family home no later than Sunday, September 9. (This date may change as I get my ducks in a row.)


Visitation

The children ages 13 and older will have the choice as to with whom they spend their weekends and holidays.

Other children will spend every other weekend with their father. They will be picked up on Friday at 6:30 p.m. and returned home on Sunday at 4:30 p.m.


Holidays

Father—New Year’s Eve and Day, Father’s Day weekend

Mother—Christmas Eve and Day, Mother’s Day weekend

Divided—Thanksgiving and Easter (Thanksgiving Day with father; Easter Day with mother)

Rotated—Independence Day

Christmas Eve and Day will be spent with mother.

New Year’s Eve and Day will be spent with father. Children will be picked up on New Year’s Eve at 5 p.m. and returned home New Year’s Day at 5 p.m.

Easter weekend will be divided. Children will be picked up Friday evening at 5 p.m. and returned home Saturday evening at 5 p.m. Easter Day will be spent with mother.

Mother’s Day weekend will be with mother.

Father’s Day weekend will be with father.

Independence Day will rotate every year. When spent with father, children will be picked up at 10 a.m. and returned home no later than 11 p.m.

Thanksgiving Holiday will be divided. Thursday will be spent with father. Children will be picked up at 10 a.m. and return home at 7 p.m. Friday will be spent with mother.


Home Remodeling

Husband will continue to oversee the completion of the kitchen and bathroom that are both in progress by working with contractors.

Wife will obtain estimates on the following projects. Husband will financially support the completion of these projects, which will be completed within the next three months:

• items listed out


Other Items

Husband is not to enter family home.

Goodnight calls to children should be made at 7:30 p.m. so as not to disturb children once they are in bed. If family is not home at the time of the call, a return call will be made by children to their father if the children so desire.

Under no circumstances are children to be exposed to OW's name.







NOTE for lawyer: Will it help to hire PI to prove current affair? Husband has admitted affair and many witnesses can attest to that. Will it be in my best interest to file divorce due to adultery?

We were simul-posting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Glad your thoughts are organized. You can do this, great job so far!

Ace

SMB,
Remember just a little while ago...feelings DO change. Even the title of your thread says it. You are wanting to run, ease the pain, get it over with. It is totally understandable, totally. But feelings CAN change. WE all know that. What if in Plan B, he finds his way? And it's real. What is the last thing he will think of you? Will he say "gosh, she hates me, I can't go back to that"? Or will he think there might be hope left because he saw a glimmer of it before you went dark?

I know you say you don't want the M anymore, but feelings change. BSs struggle with it all the time. I could never have imagined staying with my H, ever. I remember the posters here talking to me about forgiveness and about recovery and I thought to myself...HOW CAN I RECOVER FROM THIS? I think I yelled it aloud.

Try to give your WH something to remember, something good...then go to plan B. In the end YOU WILL KNOW that you did everything that you could for your M and your family. And that will stay with you the rest of your life. You didn't quit, you gave it your all... 2 more weeks.

You can do it.

Hi SMB:

I've posted to you a few times and have followed your story since you joined MB. I think about you a lot.

Anyway, I'm jumping in now to suggest listening to Dr. Harley's radio program if you have time. He does such a good job of explaining this (Mel is telling you the same thing Dr. Harley proposes).

The first thing Dr. Harley asks is: do you want to save your marriage? If the answer is "yes" or "I think so" or even "I'm not sure yet", then Dr. Harley strongly encourages the betrayed spouse to be nothing but the ideal partner around their cheating husband/wife. This is because affairs almost always end, and the spouse will want to return to their family.

That's why Plan A is supposed to be short, and usually must be followed by Plan B. It is to preserve the remaining good will of the betrayed spouse, and to remove the wayward spouse from any venomous anger the betrayed spouse probably feels. This is important if there is any hope for reconciliation.

Stay strong, I'm thinking of you-
~Saturn

I think you are getting excellent advice from ML and others...
I am more concerned with you as a person that I am with your marriage to a VERY flawed "man." If you were saying you definitely want the M to work out and looking for ways to reach that end, I would join the choir...but that is NOT what I am hearing from you.

When I hear you say the following...

"I don't want the pieces back together. I think we will be better without him."

I will go by that until you say otherwise and my response is one that Dr. Harley himself has stated very clearly... I am right there with you. Only IF you want a marriage to recover will the implementation of Plans A & B result in a positive outcome. There is NO reason to continue with a Plan A that you have clearly stated is not possible UNLESS you know you want to save the M. Plan B has it uses right now as it protects you from his continued insanity.

If your view changes and you decide that you want this M to work out... that you know this man is worth the fight... I would say follow ML advice. If you believe that you will be better off putting this all behind you and beginning anew, go immediately dark and let your lawyer have at him...."let loose the dogs of war!"

Truth???

I DON'T BELIEVE ANYMORE!!!!

I knew all along that I could forgive and love this man and get past any affair. I don't believe I can any longer. He has hurt me so badly at this point.

And, I don't believe my husband is going to want to come home to me NO MATTER WHAT I DO.

IF I could have the man back that he has been up until this year, I want that back. But then again, from what he has told me...all the while I thought he was a wonderful husband he has been checking into separating (2-3 years ago), been having an emotional affair off and on with OW (at least 5-6 years ago), and I believe spending the last few years planning and preparing HOW to leave. Moved us out of a $300,000 home last summer into a $180,000. I thought we were working together to be debt free...now, I just think he was manipulating so that he could AFFORD to leave when he was ready to. A few years back (I think 5 years ago) he changed his business to an LLC. Told me it was to protect his interests because his father had remarried some years before. (He and his dad both own part of the business). Do I believe that now?? No, I think it was one of the first steps he took to pave the way to leave when he decided he wanted to.

So, I ask myself, did the man I love and want back ever really exist. Everyone who knows us says, it was real, his love was real, it was obvious. But as I put together these pieces that COULD have an honest pure motive...well, the puzzle picture starts to look very different.

IF he was deceiving me all along, I don't want him back. If what I had for 18 years was what it FELT like, then he is worth fighting tooth and nail for.

So I am either faced with a H that has been lying, manipulating, plotting, and deceiving for a very long time...or a wonderful, encouraging, loving, husband. These are two very extremes, and one frightens me. It scares me to put myself out there to someone who is such a good con.

I am exhausted. I have lost all hope. I can't imagine ever really knowing who he was and is.

MEDC, she is now on D-Day #3 and on every D-Day - when she is hysterical with grief - she wants to kick the "bum" to the curb and then changes her mind. She is hysterical with grief right now and shouldn't make any life changing decisions in that state of mind.

If she does make a calm and rational decision when in SOUND MIND after she goes into Plan B to divorce him, I will be right there with her. But until that happens, I am helping her save her marriage and discouraging her from making ANY decisions right now. Her H is not any more "flawed" than any other wayward on this forum, IMO.

She loses nothing by playing this as if she wants to save her marriage, but she does lose if she burns that bridge becuase there will be no coming back. That is a he11 of a life changing decision to be making while you under the worst emotional trauma of your life.

If she is going to dump this guy, she needs to do it with a SOUND MIND and a CALM HEART, something she does not have TODAY.


I think she needs to do this REGARDLESS of her decision. Her attorney needs to tear him up badly so he knows the price will be very high for his affair.

IMHO...d-day #3 says it all. I personally wouldn't hang around for a forth!

Well, I wouldn't hang around for a 2nd, but that is me. We do have some great marriages around here that DID survive multiple D-Days.

true....it is just my opinion... but 4...yuck.

I am confused. What EXACTLY do you mean by D-days. I thought it meant that you discovered the affair.

What are my d-days? I thought #1 was when he confessed the he had HAD an affair(s); and #2 was when he confessed (got caught) that he was still in an affair.

ddays would also include finding out he is still in contact...

discovery days

D-day means discovery day. She discovered the affair initially, and then discovered 2 resumptions.

I guess I hadn't considered him leaving this time as a d-day. He says he is not involved with OW--OF COURSE I don't believe him. But since I hadn't actually DISCOVERED anything, I didn't consider it d-day.

Mel,

I really don't feel hysterical with grief. I actually feel like for the first time since April, I have a clear, calm mind. But perhaps it is a fog of my own.

However, I have considered what you said. I will do Plan A for the next two weeks for two reasons:

#1 This will get my kitchen/bath done quicker.
#2 I can say I did all that I could.

Then, HELLO PLAN B. Darkness is calling me.

I know Plan B will infuriate him, especially since he read about it in SAA and commented that it was sheer manipulation and using the children. He couldn't grasp the true purpose---OF COURSE.

But that's OK. I will Plan B for me, not for my marriage or for him, just for my protection. I expect it to lead to Plan D. If God intervenes (and I expect a flashing, neon sign from Him this time), then it will be a surprise and an obvious miracle.

SMB, NOT going into Plan B is more likely to lead to a D. And let me tell you why. If you are continually exposed to his affair, you will be a BASKET CASE. So when his affair does die, he won't want to come home to a basket case.

And yes, he will be furious when you go into Plan B because he will LOSE control over you. And although he might not be able to voice this fear, your Plan B threatens his affair.

Do you know why?

No, I don't know why. Please tell me.

As far as control over me. I believe that is exactly WHY he came home in the first place.

He had control up until the point that I intercepted OW's text message. Then I took control (although I felt like I was out of control). I told him to leave and after a week of falling apart, I basically unintentionally Plan B'd him. I believe he couldn't handle that. He came home to resume control so that he could leave on his terms when he felt ready.

But his wake up call is about to ring. And this time, there won't be a homecoming without my conditions being fully met.

You were right when you said his refusal to send NC letter was not good, and his refusal to commit to calling me if any contact was made. The problem was, I had already let him back home. So, I see now that I lost any power I had the moment I allowed him to come home without meeting any conditions.


I have received 2 phone calls today from HIS extended family telling me that they fully support me and know that I am the moral compass of this family. They confirm for me that he is still very heavy in denial, self-entitlement, and major WS thinking.

It is so good to have some support. His family has been my family. I am close with my parents, but have no contact with any other members of my family. He has a big extended family that stays in contact. They have loved and accepted me all these 24 years.

ok, here is why. The OW probably meets 1-2 top needs of his. You meet 3-4. With you out of the picture, he will come to the shocking realization that OW can't meet his needs and will miss what he gets from you. He will at first FIGHT THE HE11 out of Plan B to try and get you back on the plantation becuase he is used to having TWO women meet his needs.

But when he can't get you back, he will have to realize that the OW can't possibly meet his needs so he will begin to look to her to meet all of them. He will raise his expectations of her which will cause huge conflict in the marriage. Since she is just along for a free ride, she will RESENT his increased expectations.

Also, with you out of the picture, he will no longer have you around to demonize. The entire focus will now be on her and his affair, which will further its demise. Reality will seep in and he will have to face the loss of his children and his family. He can never bring his children around her becuase they will hate her for what she did to their family.

This is how Plan B hastens the death of the affair.

OK, I think I get it.

But what if he really isn't involved with OW right now?

Oh, sexymamabear, ((((big hugs)))) and <<<<prayers>>>>

I know you don't want to do plan A, but I think you should to make him believe he's got the upper-hand. I really feel in my heart that WS used a false R to jump start his divorce plan and put himself in a better position. From reading your posts, I think he believed he had more time to get his ducks in a row. I think plan A would give you time to learn more about protecting yourself/family in case you don't R.

Take the next week to learn everything you can about divorce with the best out come for you. (Even if you do R down the road, the knowledge will be invaluable) I recommend doing google searches on "divorce women", "divorce assets", "divorce hidden assets" and "divorce assets older women" (not saying your "older" but being a sahm for many years puts you into a demographic similar to mature women. Also, please check out this link http://www.fpanet.org/member/press/releases/061206_journal.cfm since it gives info on how dividing assets 50/50 harms women. It tells about a more equitable division of assets since the hubby is usually established in his career while mom had been home with the kids. Hubby's income earning potential increases while the wife has to start all over. A woman's net worth decreases, while her ex's assets/income increase, often at an exponential rate! So, looking toward the future, you're going to want your atty to fight for 1/2 of future income from earned income, business income (hubby's portion of the business), assets/dividend, retirement, etc. That way, you have income coming in, instead of coming out of your assets following the break-up. Also, don't forget your health and life insurance coverages. if your covered via hubby, you'll want to continue to be.

As far as the kiddos are concerned, most judges will agree to a "no paramours" clause in the visitation agreement. It is in the kids best interests. Remember that most states have an age (usually 14) where the child can decide which parent to live with or visit. Your atty will have more info on that.

The only other thing I can offer is to make sure the kiddos stay on top of their school work and have their portfolios ready and accessible as per your state's laws.

On the spiritual front, you'll have to let the children know that God loves them and wants every husband and wife to be together. But he also give us free-will and that means we can chose to sin, do wrong, etc(which ever terms you feel comfortable with). Let those little ones know that God hears their prayers for mom and dad to be together, but if it doesn't happen it's because sin was chosen over God. God hasn't abandoned them or didn't hear their prayers. With the older children, they'll question their faith and values (as most teens do) but it can be more intense. Watch out for their anger toward God and possible development of indifference.

Please keep the Faith and pray, pray, pray for your husband. I read in an earlier post that he is in a spiritual battle. Actually, I think he's made his decision. The evil one is now battling against you and your little ones. Courage, mamabear! Christ does not forsake us nor abandon us! He says, "My peace I give to you." I'm hoping the calm you're experiencing is from all the prayers being offered up on you and your dear family's behalf. May the Holy Spirit fill you and protect you and yours.

God Bless,

Jewel

ps sorry this is so long! I would've responded over several posts in the past few days, but had to figure out how to register <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know that a lot has changed from your first posts, but isn't it true that he has had 3 other A's with this woman? In reality - this was an on going A that has never ended. There may be times in between where they do not speak to each other, but never did they reach a point of truly saying "that is it - no more - this is WRONG and it needs to STOP"
that is what you are looking for.

WOF5,

I'm so glad you are back. You have been a great encouragement to me.

Honestly, I don't have a clue what the truth is. The stories have changed three different times.

#1-- in April--three different women that were not emotional involvements, but physical ones (obviously to protect his present affair)

#2--in June after I intercepted her text--it was her in all three affairs and he is currently involved; has always been her; and he loves her and not me (later he said he made it sound so bad because he was angry and wanted me to kick him out)

#3--in July when he wanted to come home--he was emotionally involved for a month 13 years ago and for a couple weeks 6 years ago and both times decided it wasn't what he wanted; and now since January, and this spring it became a physical involvement (he said he didn't even REMEMBER what he told me in above #2)

So, what's a woman to do with such a liar?! Do I go eenie meenie miney moe? Should I pick my favorite story? Should I just chuck it all and give up? He doesn't even realize that at this point, the truth doesn't even matter, but his TELLING ME THE TRUTH DOES. Do you know what I mean. I have already had the whammy of I've not loved you for years and it's always been her, so if that ain't the truth, nothing could hurt more than that did.

Just returned from the soccer field. Husband showed up (I was expecting that he would). He pulled out his chair and sat right down with us, just like he belonged there.

I was pleasant, not extemely friendly like making a bunch of conversation, but not at all hostile. That's about all I can muster today. I will see him again tomorrow at our other son's soccer game.

If nothing else, he will continue to see a put-together woman that is NOT falling apart, but intends to survive just fine.

mamabear - The truth is that he wants both of you and will say and do practically anything if it will keep both of you stringing along.

If you look at it from that angle, it will make a lot more sense.

He is NOT trying to "choose".

He wants to have two women in his life - a wife AND a girlfriend.

Many, many WS do this.

Yours is no different.

Just don't fall for that "I don't know what I want" crapola.

Please.
Mulan

He is.

Oh, I don't hear that at all. He appears to know exactly what he wants. He wants a divorce, no wait; he wants a "quick dissolution". He is "exhausted and done". Exhausted from what? I don't know. It sure ain't from working on our marriage. More likely, exhausted from trying to keep up with the lies and the facade.

Yeah, I know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

SMB,

Very few of us come to MB with a plan that’s working.

That’s why you learn the plan and work it.

It has a high degree of success considering the alternatives.

And as a bonus, you get to learn about how people behave in relationships like you never likely understood before.

Stay strong, work on yourself, work the plan, and things will get better no matter what the outcome of your M is.

SMB

You want the truth from him? Ain't gonna happen. That is like asking a drunk how many fingers you are holding up. The truth is a variable for him at his stage of (im)maturity. Its like the teenage female asking the teenage male if he really loves her. Yea, right. . .

He is making it up as he floats along in the fog.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Thanks for responding.

No, I don't expect the truth from him right now. And if he gave it to me, I wouldn't believe it. I may already know the truth, but am not sure which story it is.

I was responding to WOF5's quote below where she says "isn't it true".



The only truth I know is that I have no idea what the truth is. I can't base any of my decisions on "the truth" about the affair or my husband. I don't even know if the man I have loved all these years was the "truth"--the real man. So it is even hard for me to say, "yeah, he's worth fighting for." So even my Plan B at this point will have nothing to do with the marriage. It will truly be about protecting myself from his manipulation and control.

Plan B is about preservation of his account in your Love Bank AND protecting yourself...

His account in your Love Bank, however, has been overdrawn for some time now. But as your plan B (protecting you) unfolds and the truth reveals itself, IF the man you thought you knew all these years returns, you could have deposits into that overdrawn account begin to change your mind.

Actually, not only does Plan B protect you from his control and manipulation, but as others have said, it also protects YOU from YOURSELF due to your despair and devastation. It also protects your children from your making a wrong decision at the wrong time based on changing data.

Keep posting, SMB. You can do this.

Ace

I was sitting on my swing in my backyard this morning reading MB, when some strange man comes in my yard. He asks for H and says he is there to measure for spouting. I say H doesn't live here anymore. He says he spoke with H yesterday, and he was going to meet with him this morning. I say go ahead and take whatever measurements you need.

H shows up a few minutes later. They talk outside for a while and kids run out to see daddy. H comes in and goes to garage for a minute (don't know what for). Then gives kids hugs and says bye. As he is walking out the door, he says "Bye, D" (my nickname that only he and my dad call me). The last few weeks he lived here, he didn't even say bye to me when he left.

Now I do NOT consider this a sign of anything in any way. But for a BRIEF moment he sounded like my H and not WS. His tone when he said D is what I recognized. He has been calling me by my full name whenever he needed to speak to me. But for the last 20 years, he has called me hon, dear, or D. Perhaps it was just a reminder for me that somewhere in there my H still resides.

I am happy that it appears he may have new spouting put on. But I would have liked to know that a strange my would be in my yard at 7:20 a.m.

So, I will continue to be at least pleasant, and maybe even be able to muster a little more for Plan A for a few more weeks.

Thank you ALL for posting to me. I will try to post often through these next few weeks to help me get through the last of Plan A.

WTG SMB!!

You have plenty of time to make monster decisions. It's best when you make them with a sound, rational mind.

A little Plan A, then a dark Plan B.

It leaves all of your options open.

It is going to be hard to Plan A through this one.

13 year old daughter is not talking to her father. She has said she doesn't want to go to his place at all. I have told her that I won't make her go, but that at some point, after she gets through some of her hurt and anger, she will want to spend time with him.

Well, father saw her at karate class tonight and told her she HAD to come to his place this weekend. I am going to email him telling him that he needs to give her a little space and some time. But I expect he is going to demand she come over.

I have left a message with lawyer asking about the legal side of this.

I figure I have a few options.

#1 force her to go (not planning to do this one)

#2 try to reason with him and hope that when he comes he doesn't force her

#3 send her to a friend's house so that she isn't here when he comes

Any suggestions or comments on this one are welcome.

When it comes to the well being of the kids...Plan A is out the window. The only suggestion I can offer is find a compromise...if he wants to spend time with his daughter and this is not just a power play (which I suspect it is) talk to her and see if she will be willing to do something as a family. You can then offer that suggestion to your WH and see what he says. Bottom line, she is too old to be forced to go over there and spend time with him...and he needs to come to terms with that.
My son is 11 and he decides if and when he wants to spend time with his mom. The children's home is at your house and frankly, your H has no legal right to remove the children from their hom until such a time as a court determines otherwise.
Rememeber....children 1st...then worry about the MB plans.

Lawyer just called me back. Says I need to encourage D to spend time with H, and I told him I have been, but that my concern is if he tries to force her to go. He said he cannot force her and if he tries to, to call the police. I said I hope it doesn't get to that, and he said I hope not, too, but it just might.

I am prepared to do whatever I need to to allow my daughter the right to feel her own feelings and to have some control over her life and her relationship with her father. For her own mental health, I know that she has to get past the anger at some point, and start to rebuild that relationship. But it is going to be when she is ready. He can't bully her through this. It's time for him to feel some consequences for his ridiculous actions. He and D have been very, very close all these years, so I know this is hurting him tremendously. But I also know that he thinks he can just resume authority with his family...well, his submissive wife has left. I was submissive because I believed it was the right way to live in a Christian marriage, and he had always valued and respected my opinion. I was not submissive because I am weak. He changed the game, and I am changing the rules. He doesn't get it yet, but he will. I am in charge. I make the decisions about my children...where they go, who their with. He is JUST A VISITOR. I will continue to be respectful and pleasant. But I will not back down to his bullying.


Just sent this email to H:

Daughter talked with me last night. She said she told you she didn't want to come to your place this weekend, and that you told her she has to.

She is stuggling with a lot of feelings right now. I am asking that you be patient with her. Since you left, she has been telling me that she will not ever go to your place. I have explained to her that although she feels angry and hurt right now, that in time she will want to spend time with you. But I have also told her I will not force her to go if she does not want to.

I think if you give her some time and do not push her, she will get through this more quickly.

I'm sure you realize that legally you cannot remove her from her home. I will continue to encourage her to allow you to repair the relationship, but I will not require her to go if she chooses not to.

SMB,

I hope you are considering having your daughter talk to a professional to help her through this.

LC

Yes, I have the name of two different counselors. I was planning to call this week and schedule an appointment. Time got away from me, and I haven't made the call (will be calling this morning).

The first time he left I was taking my 8 yos to a C, because he was really struggling. This time round he seems to have just accepted this all. But I still plan to get them all in to see someone at least a couple times.

Thanks for your concern on this. I do appreciate your thoughts.

Husband has been at a meeting all morning and so did not get my email yet. He called to tell me that D had told him she didn't want to go and that he was planning on her going anyway.


I basically explained to him the same thing that was in my email. He says to me, "So you're going to a 13 year old make the decision about this?" (in a tone that suggests that a 13 year old should not have that power). And I said, "Yes, I will allow her to make that decision."

Through most of the conversation, it was apparent in his tone that he was trying to manipulate me into submitting to his authority. I think he began to see that I was not backing down (although I remained calm and respectful).

He then tells me that at 13, yes, she does get to choose who she lives with, but that she doesn't get to choose whether she has to go to visitation (he was talking legally). I told him that I thought he was wrong about that. And that if he doesn't give her space but instead tries to force her into seeing him, he will alienate her.

Oh yeah, he also said he thought she was just trying to con us because she wants to go do something else. I told him he is going to have to acknowledge her anger and hurt at some point.

He then says he's almost at the house, and he is stopping by to talk with D. So he takes her outside and talks for awhile. Then comes in and says that its between me and her what happens THIS weekend.

I talked with D after he left. She said they just chatted (as he tried to warm her up, I'm sure). He asked why she doesn't want to go to his house--because your brothers are there, because you want to do something else, etc. She said because she is mad at him. He asked why, but she said she didn't say anything else.

She told me after he left that she just needs SPACE. I can understand that.

From H's tone, I wouldn't be surprised if he contacts his lawyer to get some kind of visitation requirement written up. I have a call into my lawyer right now to hopefully initiate that myself. I was going to stick with Plan A for a few more weeks as he finishes the remodeling. However, I want to keep control of this situation (kids visitation schedule).

He also told me that he would be here most of NEXT weekend to work on the house. I asked what he still needed to do, because most is being hired out. He listed a few things. These are all things that I can find someone else to do for me at no charge--friends & family.

I'm anxious to discuss this all with my lawyer. It feels like it is time.

Oh, and when he got here today to talk with daughter, he starts walking through the house, telling the kids things he expected them to do (pick up games, put outside toys away, blah, blah, blah). I just want to scream, YOU DON'T LIVE HERE ANYMORE.

PLAN B now...just my opinion.

SMB, I just want to applaud you for the good judgment and courage you used when dealing with your DD. You managed to protect your child and validate her feelings about her dad's bad behavior. That is so important when she is being pressured by her dad to accept his shabby behavior and act like nothing has happened. What a brave little girl she is!

sniff....I am so proud of you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have you made a decision yet on when you will go into Plan B?

I am waiting to hear back from my lawyer's office to schedule an appointment to prepare a separation agreement, which will include: finances, visitation, home remodeling, not entering home.

Then I will go mostly Plan B. I don't expect to be totally dark, though, at least not right away. Our kids are playing soccer for the next 1 1/2 months, and I know our paths will cross there. That part will be complicated, it seems to me. But it will be short term.

Once that is over, I am planning other activities for the kids that H will not be a part of.

Ok, here is what you do. Starting today - re-arrange the furniture, change things around. De-clutter as much as possible. Move the furniture around in every room of the house. That way, it will be very difficult for him to walk through the house giving out his orders. He will look lost and confused, and see his family moving on without him. That is the naughty, vindictive side of this plan. You will see him walking through the room, dazed and confused, and it will make you smile. I would even move some of the pots and pans in the kitchen - you want him to really feel like this train is moving on without him, and he had better hop on, or get the heck out of the way.

The positive side of that plan, is that he needs to start seeing right away, that you and the kids are going ahead with yor lives. You will not be frozen in time, waiting for him to step back into the family as if nothing happened.

When he does stop by, while you are still in plan A, be friendly, and kind. But let him see that he is the one who will be left behind, if he does not stop his current destructive path.

SMB, a couple of points that stand out to me:


Perhaps you could prepare to sit on the OTHER SIDE and walk away when he approaches you? I would think of some way to avoid all contact.

Additionally, many lawyers push for "co-parenting." [versus Plan B] because they simply try to facilitate an amicable divorce/sep. If this happens, you must resist and we can arm you with quotes and articles from psychogists and specialists about how "co-parenting" is often damaging.

WOF5,

That's funny that you say that. When he moved out the first time, I ripped up our living room carpet(hardwood underneath--which I love), switched our living room and family room furniture (moved one set up stairs and moved the other down).

Since he left this time, I have rearranged my bedroom, rearranged the family room and continue to tweak the rooms here and there. Yes, I love moving furniture around anyway. But now...well, I don't have to consider what he will think. It's all about what I like.

As far as the kitchen...well, that's really funny. Most of my kitchen is boxed up because of our remodeling. The kitchen is down to the studs. Electrician was in last week, plumber next week, cabinet and counter installer the week after, then the flooring. So once that is all done, I will get to create my own new kitchen.

Mel,

I will do my best once I go Plan B to be as dark as I can.

The first time around, I told my lawyer I wanted full custody and he said that most judges go for shared parenting.

I just spoke with his office and have an appointment for Monday. I will tell him then that I want full custody. I do not want to share with him any decision making.

I was just out with kids going garage saling. My 17 yos was with us. They wanted to show me where daddy's new place is. So we went by, and guess what. His car was there.

Fridays are a very busy afternoon for him at work, and he never takes them off unless he really has a good reason. My guess is that OW was there with him.

It did mess with my mind. Mentally, I kinda went to that dark place for about 30 minutes. Now we're home and I am letting it go. It just kills a little more of my feelings when I think about him taking off work to be with her (today probably--and many other days over the last months) when I would have LOVED for him to take off for me and take me to a hotel (he confessed that he did that with her). I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO ESCAPE LIKE THAT WITH HIM!!!

OK, back to surrendering him to God, letting go, and moving on...back to calm, back to peaceful, back to calm, back to peaceful....

And thanks for the positive words about handling the situation with my daughter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Can someone link me or direct me to Plan B info. I want to reread as much as I can this weekend as I prepare for this.

I am going to get Love Must Be Tough tomorrow and read that, too.

Thank you, Plank, for the encouragement. I am now at a place where I BELIEVE that no matter what the outcome is, I will be fine...one day full of joy again.

You are handling this like a queen. You are truly a wonderful woman and mom. Truly, God gives you His peace.

I see in your posts that you want full custody and I hope you get it. But I thought of something as I read your post about the kids wanting to go by his house. What if they had wanted to go in and see their daddy? My goodness, that could be detrimental to them if OW had been there. Don't forget to have the "no paramours" clause put in the visitation order too. If he can go and stop in at your home whenever he pleases or even see them as he pleases(ie games,karate), he's leading the kids to believe there is an open door policy between them and him. And they will be asking to "stop by" wherever he's "at" in the near future when they want to see him. He needs to be the one responsible for keeping "her" separate from his kids. If their dad wants an open door policy with them, get your atty to make it where he can't have her at his home or their activities. That way he might be less likely to fight your request for full custody.

just a thought

Blessings,

Jewel

SMB,


I like your attitude.... rock on! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi SMB,

If you haven't found this yet, here is the link to Mark's Musings thread:

It is an extensive thread for Newbies (I'll bump it, too.) but page 2 had some great posts on Plan B. Plus, there are lots of links on subsequent pages, too. It's a very helpful thread cuz Mark's an extremely helpful guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know you can do this and I'm glad to see you posting more often to gain strength for the difficult times ahead.

Ace

Ace,

Thanks for the link. I spent some time this morning reading much of it. Lots of helpful stuff there.

Appointment is scheduled with lawyer for Monday.

Husband is so clueless about what he is going to miss. He thinks he'll still be such an involved dad. Oh, pleeeaaassee. No more listening to them play beautiful music on the guitar or piano in the evening, he will miss many funny comments the younger kids make, he'll miss his daughter's first date and really will be on the outside of even helping her choose, he'll miss seeing kids' schoolwork and projects (we do lots of cool projects in our homeschool), he'll miss all the really cool things I do to help kids have gifts for him (we often made really touching things). These are things that have meant a lot to him over the years. He'll also miss being in on decisions about them--what activities they participate in, who their friends are, what they study in school, what church they go to, and on and on.

He'll miss a wife that is devoted to him and treats him with respect and honor; a wife who thinks he is the best catch in the whole freakin' world.


He's so stupid in his fogged out head. I think he'll even miss the way I feel next to him, and the smiles I gave him, and the way I prepared the holidays for the kids & the gifts they made for grandparents (he's on his own with his family), and the goosebumps I got EVERY SINGLE TIME I...I...don't know how to say it on here....you know, the SF thing. He thinks because she talks dirty and does some nasty thing I don't, he won't miss me. But I know there are many things that he'll miss, he'll long for, but that's his problem. I've been missing my man for the last year. Now it's my turn to disappear. POOF!

Yesterday, I read the funny post about WS's who need to find themselves. It was the first total bust out laughing, oh-my-belly-hurts-from laughing moment since April. It is sooooo him.

SMB,
Yes he is going to miss it all.

And you are going to be fine.

Thanks MG!

I am going to be FINE, really FINE.

Tell me what you think about this idea for visitation. We have 5 children. I am considering telling H I would agree to him having three oldest one weekend and younger two the following. And alternate their visitations like that. That way he can play daddy EVERY weekend. Right now I'm sure he's thinking he can have every other weekend to spend with OW.

Whatdaya think? Pros? Cons?

I don't care for the idea as I think the kids would miss out on having that quality time to be able to do something as a family.
I also think that your WH needs to suffer the consequences of not having his family around for stretches of time.

Just my opinion.

SMB,

When I was going through a divorce about ten years ago with a then WW she said things like:

The kids will be just fine.

This will bring the three of you closer together.

We will still be a family.

Those statistics you are citing don’t take into account situations like ours.

BLEH!

All WS babble speak and untrue.

But the saddest part of all of that crap was that she believed it.

I'm not sure what statistics you mean. I don't recall siting any stats--don't think I even know any.



The babble you posted is the SAME EXACT babble WS has spoken. He actually told my youngest that they would spend MORE time with him because he wasn't usually home in the evenings anyway. And that now they would spend an entire weekend with him. Give me a freakin' break! I told my boys, "you do realize, that daddy could have spent every evening and weekend with you if he chose to." My 11yos looked at me, "Like, Oh, yeah, that's right." That's when I realized how easy it is for a parent to bulldoze a child to believe anything one wants them to, at least for a while.

The really insane part is up until this year, H has shared with me his grief about his parents divorce (he was 16). He has struggled with abandonment from his mom (she's the one who moved out), along with the anger, hurt, and betrayal. He has talked about how the holidays are so painful even today, because he can't just "go home" and see his family. He has two visit two different places and deal with step families. He has even cried in my arms when sharing with me his hurt. Now, all of a sudden, our kids will be fine. WTF?! Talk about denial of the greatest kind. Of all people, I know HE knows, if he could get out of his self-absorbed mindset.

SMB...I believe Plank was giving an example of babble WS talk from HIS FWW in an attempt to show you that they all come up with some crazy lies and manipulations.

Oh, duh, I get it now!

I'm a little slow this morning.

Thanks for helping me out MEDC.

MEDC's point about missing his family every other weekend would make him suffer seems very valid. SMB, were you saying "he would get every other weekend off" as a reason to play with OW verses 'playing daddy'?

If so, that might constitute 'using' your children to distract and "inconvenience" his A, which I think could be very harmful for the kids.

Having him have all of them every other weekend, or even once a month might make him realize what he is missing, which I think is one of the side goals with Plan B.

Of course, I have no experience with plan B but others who have will chime in I'm sure.

Don't berate yourself SMB for not being able to always consider all angles....that's why we're here. (Well, I'm still learning and mainly only encouraging, but others can help you think when things seem fuzzy.)

Still praying for you,

Ace

Ace,

Well, yes, I was thinking that by having some of HIS children every weekend would make it more difficult to play w/ OW. I don't see it as harmful to the kids because, quite frankly, they would probably prefer to not have to compete with so many siblings when they only have daddy for a couple days. I think it might actually be beneficial to them as far as quality time with their daddy. However, yes, I confess, my motives were not pure as I contemplated this idea.

When I thought of this idea, I also was thinking that it might better for him to miss them every other weekend. And having all 5 of them at once can be overwhelming even for those of us who love the chaos they all bring. He told me when his first confessed to affairs that one thing he needed was to be able to spend time with just one or two of the kids, but he always felt like I got mad if he left some at home. That was, of course, a bunch of BS. I LOVED when he took a couple out on errands. He just always picked the older, easier ones. Anyway, my point is that he has already stated that he doesn't ENJOY all 5 of them at once.

Actually, for me, I would prefer him to have them all. At first I hated this idea. But since June's initial shock about of being without them during visitation, I have begun to see that I could use that time to focus on me, and am thinking I might enjoy it at times.

MEDC,

As far as the kids not having family time...We homeschool and are together ALL the time. However, my oldest began community college last year (as a jr. in high school). My younger boys really missed him when he started leaving every day for school. And perhaps this is a time in their lives when big bubby is even more important. That would be a reason not to split them up on the weekends. Although, oldest often has plans of his own and doesn't spend the entire time at dad's anyway.

Yes, I am trying to consider all angles. But it isn't driving me crazy. I love to brainstorm about things and come up with ideas that are often overlooked. So I am just throwing this idea out to be bounced around by all of you.

I appreciate your feedback and your encouragement.

Just an update about my daughter. She stayed at a friend's house Friday night and I did not pick her up until after her brothers went with dad. So she didn't even have to be confronted by him about it right now.

My hope is that after she starts seeing a counselor, her father will be asked to attend a few sessions with her. I think it would be good for BOTH of them.

She and I had a great time. We went to out to eat and to church Sat. night. Then picked out some paint for the house. She liked being a part of that. We picked up a movie and went home with milkshakes and watched to flick.

Major halos and multiple gold stars to you SMB.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />..to have 5 children in the home AND dealing with an unexpected move into "Betrayedville" would be more than I could handle.

I noticed your very impressive post to Skinsgal this morning.....helping others will help you realize how far you've come and give you more strength and confidence than you realize.

What are the age/genders of your 6-17 year olds? I take it the 17 yo is a boy but that's about all I can figure from your posts.

Listing your kids in your sig line: (DS 17,14,8,6; DD 11) might be helpful.

Keep it up....you can do this,
Ace

SMB,


I hate to bring this up but thought I should remind you where there's a will there's a way. If he wants to find time for her he will regardless if you set it up that he has a different child each day of the week.

You can put 1000 obstacles in his way and he will maneuver them as he sees fit.

I agree with your thoughts of him having all of them at the same time and giving you some quality time with yourself.

LC

SMB
I'm for him having all of the kids during his visitation. He will feel the chaos that you feel daily and he may come to see you in a different light (you are more competent than any OW could be, your kids are lucky to have a Mom like you,etc). Well it couldn't hurt.

Also, you can focus on you. Start a new hobby, improve YOU. Be the bast you can be. You know what I mean? It could also make him wonder WHAT you are doing? He won't like you moving on without him.

I think you know that you can't stop them from seeing one another. You don't want to use the kids for that purpose...I know you get that.

And as Ace said....5 kids and dealin with all of this? You are amazing. You are strong and you will recover, married or not.

Just a quick update. Appointment with lawyer was postponed yesterday, and I am waiting to hear back from his office to reschedule.

Sometimes I wonder if H is reading my posts. I really can't imagine that he would bother, but there are little things I notice that make me wonder...or if he tapped my phone. He all of a sudden sat at the other end of the soccer field this weekend, when for the last three games he sat right next to me (which I discussed here). There are a couple other little things that just make me go, "hhhmmmm, could he be?"

I doubt it. But if he is maybe he'll learn something worthwhile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for pointing out what I should already know. He's found a way all these months while he lived here, so, you are right, he can certainly find a way now that he's gone.

Ace,

I am just doing exactly what you would do, too. Take the hits life has thrown, pick yourself up, and do the best you can for those you love. I've read your posts, I know you'd do the same.

Right now, it seems easier without him here. I think he had caused so much tension and hidden hostility while he was here and sneaking around, that we all feel a little relieved at this point. I am keeping the atmosphere around here relaxed and focusing on nurturing and cuddling with them.

I have to admit that yesterday and this morning I have been struggling with visions of him and other woman again. And just the rejection that I face now hurts so much. I don't really want to "go there" emotionally right now. I have had several days of quiet in my heart, that's where I want to stay. I have been pushing the thoughts out of my mind, refusing to stay focused on any of it. But it keeps creeping back.

Another soccer game tonight. Husband's dad and stepmom will be there tonight. His dad called a few days ago (don't remember if I posted about it) just to let me know that he loves me and is still my daddy-in-law. He refused to talk about TRUTH at all, saying that he just wants to be a listener for H. He and H's mom both had affairs and they divorced. They had a "happy" divorce. They hope we'll have the same for the "sake of the kids". They DON'T GET IT! Doing something for the sake of the kids would be staying married and doing whatever it takes to restore love; it would be modeling commitment and God's truth about marriage; it would be teaching them sin is sin, no matter who commits it.

Anyway, I appreciated his call. But it was a little too late to mean much. This has been going on for almost 5 months. He just heard from a relative that I "felt like I had lost my entire family" (because I had been so close with most of H's family). That's why he called. He made himself feel better.

I guess I'm starting to vent a little here.

I am looking forward to scrapbooking and writing, which I never have time for. I think just those two things will keep me pretty occupied. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the encouragement, but like I told Ace, I'm doing the same thing all of you would do (or have done). The biggest challenge with 5 kids is just trying to tune into what each one needs, and be available enough to EACH one. But I know that God will make up where I fall short. I know that He will. I continue to talk with my children about turning TO God and not away from Him during trials and storms; that we need to trust that He will make all things good in His time, because we love Him and have been called to be His. My oldest says this is the first time he has NEEDED God and that He feels stronger in his convictions now. My middle child says He knows that God is with us and we will be OK (he has a gift for understanding Scripture and for standing for truth). Months ago he was telling his dad that he didn't like the music he was listening to and would he please change it. [email]Dumb@ss[/email] dad would just turn it up. Oddly enough, just last summer, H was lecturing cousins about the negative effect of secular music (don't want to debate that--just demonstrating that WH is NOTHING like real H.)

Daughter says her relationship with God is "just confusing". I tell her to keep the faith, because GOD is always faithful even when it seems He is not. To hold on to truth; and that God is still God; and when storms come, he will calm the storm or he will calm us. Just keep turning TO Him.

Everytime I talk with one of them, I hear what I say and am reminded to keep the faith. I know my example will speak more than my words. I love them so much and want to do right by them in their growing relationship with the Lord.

Soooo, I TRUST Him to make up where I fall short---because I will be tired sometimes, and I will be hurting most times, and I will be lonely and grieving and resentful and just plain sick of what my WH has done to us, to what we had, to what we were.

SMB,
You're doing great, really. Pat yourself on the back. What you're dealing with is so difficult and yet you are keeping it together along with encouraging your kids to stay on the path. That takes strength...don't fool yourself.


As you mentioned above.... the imagery in your head. I think just stopping the thoughts dead in their tracks is the best way to stay sane. When you start to go there...switch gears...remain in the good place....thoughts of your kids laughing, good times with friends....WHATEVER it takes.

BTW...it's ok to vent here...anytime.

P.S. I'm already starting to see your personal recovery.

Help!!!

I just got the "proof" I need that he is still involved with OW. Yes, I knew it was so, but now I have it staring me in the face. Can't go into how, just in case.

What do I do now?! I have been trying to locate OW's H and cannot get contact info on him. I guess it's time to hire PI. I would like to contact OW, and ask her what her intentions are. Remind her that she has devastated my children, and they will never accept her into their lives.

Help me! My peace is gone at the moment! I am angry, my stomach is churning.

I have appointment with lawyer tomorrow a.m. I was going to tell him I want a legal separation, and I will not proceed with dissolution or divorce. Right at the moment, though, I want to tell him to send accountant to H's business and start investigating every crook and cranny of his books. I want to tell him to take H for every penny I can and that he will see MY kids as little as possible. I want to rip his head off, is what I want to do!

You have been through enough. As far as I am concerned to quote Shakespeare..

"Cry havoc..and sick loose the dogs of war."

I am sorry SMB. You never deserved this.

Sexy:

Please try to calm down and know that most of us have been through this same process.

I'm happily recovered for four years Sept 1..I just realized this..and went through MORE THAN ONE false recovery..I can't remember how many....

It takes the WS awhile to break the addiction to the OW...

Whatever you do, DO NOT CALL THE OW..she does not care about destroying your family...that's what she wants and will use anything you do or say to her AGAINST you....

Yes, get as much INFO as you can, EXPOSE as much as you can...and most importantly, PROTECT YOURSELF....

Be EMOTIONAL here and not with THE ENEMY...

GO UNDERCOVER...

This is a WAR..which requires WAR TACTICS....

I have to go sit at the soccer fields tonight and will see H there,along with H's father and step mom. How do I NOT RIP HIS EYES OUT!

Read this post that I WROTE a couple of years ago...


------------------------------------------------------------

It's almost 3 years since my D-DAY and what a D-DAY it was. Driving down the hotel strip in my town on New Years Eve, I see my H's car and the OW's car parked..seems like the only cars in the parking lot...the desk person MIRACULOUSLY tells me his room number..I knock on the door and he answers in his boxers,saying "I'M ENDING IT RIGHT NOW"...OH WHAT A NIGHT!...I proceed to my car and call everyone I can think of..his best friends... OW calls me on my cellphone and asks me: "Who are you the GD FBI?"(to give you a flavor of her)-guess I ruined her night of fun because my H left her there in the hotel room and so the PROCESS begins....PLAN A..FALSE RECOVERIES...PLAN B...REAL RECOVERY for 2 Years.... This may be more information than you need to know...

I wanted to share this morning because I am coming to a place of putting a lot of this behind me. It is painful to recall those events now (my body began to shake as I typed it) and I really don't have to play that out again much anymore.

My H is genuinely dear to me now. I have had the sweetest and most wonderful weekend with him. He has definitely chosen me. He has filled my life with such pleasant memories over the past two years that, even if something else happens, I feel blessed for having had this special time with him.

In the midst of this weekend, I've been lurking and reading about your trials. These are thoughts that I want to share with you before I get to the point of FORGETTING THE TRAUMAS THAT I EXPERIENCED... My FWH is wiping the pain away...Most importantly, I am becoming STRONG enough in my PERSONAL RECOVERY to not allow those past traumas and memories to intrude and rob me of EXPERIENCING TRUE JOY in my life.

DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE I held on to HOPE AND FAITH for dear life. This was the main thing that kept me going. If not hope for your marriage, maintain hope and faith in your spirit, in your soul, for your own well-being. I turned to MY GOD, to MY PERSONAL SAVIOUR in the midnight hours and constantly and regularly received PERSONAL TOUCHES and MESSAGES from the HOLY SPIRIT. Even if you do not share my religious beliefs, do whatever it takes to remain focused on the LIGHT and not the DARK....DO NOT LET ANYONE ROB YOU OF YOUR HOPE AND FAITH...that is the GOAL OF THE ENEMY....

VIEW THIS AS A SERIES OF BATTLES See yourself as a soldier in a war..a fight for yourself..a fight for your marriage..a fight against the forces of evil...Given your hope and faith (discussed above), BELIEVE that you will be victorious and conquer the ENEMY..ONE BATTLE AT A TIME....

VIEW YOUR WS AS BEING DRUG-ADDICTED My FWH was just as bad, lost,desperate, craved, nasty, smelly as any meth or cocaine addict...This is not a contest that anyone wants to win. But, I bet that I can top any story that the WSes are discussing on the boards lately... At some point in all of this, my FWH was emotionally abusive, at times physically abusive, abandoned me, abandoned his children...all of the above and worse than I can possibly believe at this point...he seemed POSSESSED and EVIL....A MONSTER, at times.. Now I look at him after FULL WITHDRAWAL and his OWN INSISTENCE on USING EXTREME PRECAUTIONS and I can't BELIEVE WHAT I SEE... He is truly the SWEETEST, KINDEST PERSON to me.. For two full years, I have waited for that MONSTER to return.. Early on, their were daily glimpses but as each day goes by he comes closer and closer to being his former self or even better....HE HAS DEFINITELY CHANGED...

LEARN STRATEGIES TO INSULATE YOURSELF FROM THE MONSTER WHO IS NOT REALLY YOUR SPOUSE It's like I learned to enclose myself in a cocoon that he could not penetrate. I would come on here to vent. I would retreat to the bathroom. I would go on LONG DRIVES in my car. It was important not to be swept up into HIS EVILNESS..INTO HIS CRAZY WORLD...That would have legitimized his craziness.. Of course, the eventual PLAN B is perfect sanctuary....

CONTINUE TO EXPOSE... This so freeing..Tell everybody you know. You are in the RIGHT. He is in the WRONG. This is an essential battle strategy. This will get back to one of them and they will continually BE SHAMED. Don't believe that others are supportive of what they are doing...I had fantasies of fencing them in her house so they wouldn't want to come out. This turned out to be truer than I believed at the time. They took back roads and snuck around town while I took the main roads and let everybody know what my H was doing...

A few more thoughts....

LET YOUR WAYWARD SPOUSE GO....FOCUS ON YOURSELF...I really got this after reading LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by DOBSON although this was pounded into me by others...I came to accept that there was no amount of crying, pleading, explaining, questioning or PLAN Aing that I could do to make my H stop his A..He had to eventually choose to break up with her on his own...He had to be ready...

HE HAD TO HIT HIS BOTTOM This was the reason for the false recoveries..He came back before he was ready..He came back before he had scraped the very bottom of the barrel..He had to come face to face with all that he was losing..He had to come face to face with who the OW REALLY WAS... This is what can happen in PLAN B...

Another one of my thoughts:

When you fail or make a mistake, get right back up on the horse...get back into the battle....

Mimi is a great example of someone that got through many false recoveries.
I guess it all depends on what you are willing to put up with.
There are at least as many people on this site that have put up with d-day after d-day only to wind up divorced.
IMHO, I wouldn't give him a chance for a 3-100 d-day. SMB..only you can make that call.

Figure out a way to CONTROL YOUR FEELINGS...

Don't go to the soccer game if that will HELP you...

Go for a drive in your car..SING and YELL...

Walk around the soccer field during the game for exercise...

DO WHATEVER YOU CAN TO GET RID OF THAT URGE....

I think PLAN FU would show better results.

DO THE MB PLANS if you want to RECOVER your marriage...

You certainly do need to tell him that you know about the continued contact but without LOVEBUSTING...and not until you have ALL THE INFO that you need...

The HARLEYS would not recommend PLAN FU..that is not part of the MB PROGRAM WHATSOEVER....

I understand what you are going through SMB. I have to see my WH EVERYDAY practically with the full knowledge that he is actively "seeing" the OW and lying to me half the time.

It's easier to lash out at him than to maintain control, but the only person you hurt is yourself when you do. I've found that by venting here, but being calm around my WH is much better for me in the long run. I see my WH as someone who is truly messed up mentally. He is making such poor decisions that it's easier to feel sorry for him than to be angry around him.

I don't let him or his comments get to me as much as I did and I find that I'm not as angry now in his presence as I was at first.

If you need to, take a friend with you to the soccer game or start a conversation with the person next to you..anything to take your focus off your WH. If he sees you enjoying yourself it might make him wonder what is going on with you. I know that when I'm in a good mood around my WH, he tends to be almost jealous of my happiness. It's strange but true.

I BELIEVE IN MARRIAGE, SEXY...

If you want your MARRIAGE, working the PLANS is your BEST STRATEGY...

This is all about whether or not you LOVE your H..

That's why I went through the FALSE RECOVERIES..cause I LOVED MY H..and was WILLING TO FIGHT FOR HIM....

SMB,
So sorry you have to have that fact staring you in the face, however it happened. But the way he was acting all along during your false recovery was a clear indicator that he was still involved and lying to you. So now you know without a doubt you are dealing with a full blown WS. He truly acts the part.

First try to maintain some clarity. Discuss all of this with your lawyer. Personally I would get his books checked if at all possible. He may have $$$ that you are not aware of.

What about the house renovations? Are they to a point where the rest can be hired out? If so, it sounds to me like a Plan B letter will be in order. I would still remain calm and matter-of-fact. We don't want the last couple of weeks in Plan A that you have been doing to go to waste. In the letter you can state that you have proof that he is still involved, how this hurts you deeply, and what would be required of him to return to your M.....NOW I KNOW YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE DONE....remember don't burn those bridges in this state of mind. Then you go as dark as you can...pitch black.

I would not contact OW. SHE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOU OR YOUR M. Anything that spews(sp?) from her mouth will be lies and hurtful words. DON'T GO THERE!!!! By your contacting her, she'll feel acknowledged, important, part of your life. She's not. But you do need to contact OWH.

What do you know about him? Anything?

My advice? Listen to Mimi. She knows that Tzu guy.

Listen to Michele, too...all those here for you, on your thread.

There's personal recovery and marital recovery.

First act is to expose the A. All the way. Hiring a PI so you can know and inform OWH of the truth would be money well spent. You acting to your code...not based on WH's choices.

Focus is difficult and the huge pain of this is real...we hear you. We remember.

You can choose to divorce...if what you are saying you really want WH to suffer, to take every penny you can get from him...that is your right, you know. You can choose that. He can't make you choose that.

Venting is something necessary, I think, at times. Know when you're venting and when you're making choices from your emotions. After all, that's what WH does/did which seared you inside...he chases after false feelings and acts from them.

You want reality, I think. You want the real stuff. Make your choices from your beliefs (I no longer want to be married to WH or to H no matter what he does or does not do).

Orchid had a lot of false recoveries, Mimi, AmIOK, Chrysalis, Acey...all of them. You're not alone. His actions say NOTHING about you, 'k?

You choose.

LA

P.S. What about re-exposing with every contact? So you tell FIL and the rest of his family..."Yes, your son is still choosing to continue his A." Calm, respectful (telling the truth is an act of respect). Get on exposure to OW's BH right away, though, 'k? Seriously.

you mentioned Amiok...plan FU worked wonders for her.

I think Mimi is right...so long as SMB is willing to go through this time and again. I just don't get that impression.

SMB...if you truly want recovery AND you are willing to put up with continued contact...follow Mimi's advice...it is sound.

MEDC:

I bet you didn't know that I did SEVERAL PLAN FUs..in fact, embarassed to say, even got into a PHYSICAL FIGHT with my H after DD#WHATEVER...

MY PLAN FUs were GREAT EMOTIONAL RELEASES...RAGES used to be my middle name...my H was REAL FAMILIAR with them..so PLAN FU was more of the same for him...didn't work...

GAINING HIS RESPECT through STRATEGIZING..CALM ASSERTIVENESS...working the plans...is what worked for me....

But..YES, it was HARD AS you know what..not for everybody...YOUR CHOICE, SEXYMAMABEAR....

Today..I can say that TODAY, I'm HAPPIER THAN EVER..but 50% of it is the PERSONAL RECOVERY as LA speaks about... which included learning HOW TO CONTROL MY EMOTIONS...