What is your definition of the term?

An obsessive, unhealthy need to be controlled by what another person says and feels about you. A state where one accepts (without question) another person's evaluation of one's own self worth.

Is that enough to get you started? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

so, co dependents will do anything to get people to approve of them?

Does it have anything to do with "doing everything for everybody" to "keep the peace?"

And it has a lot to do with being so busy taking care of the other person, and taking responsiblity for things THEY should be doing, and in the meantime not working on one's own issues.

From my CoD 12 Step Program -

Patterns and Characteristics of Codependence

These patterns and characteristics are offered as a tool to aid in self-evaluation. They may be particularly helpful to newcomers.

Denial Patterns:
I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel.
I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well being of others.


Low Self Esteem Patterns:
I have difficulty making decisions.
I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough."
I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own.
I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.


Compliance Patterns:
I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
I accept sex when I want love.


Control Patterns:
I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves.
I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel.
I become resentful when others will not let me help them.
I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked.
I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about.
I use sex to gain approval and acceptance.
I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others.

yikes on the above post from believer.

I have 3 kids--18, 16 (boys), and 13 (a girl).

Even before the infidelity stuff, I tended to do more for them than I should have. Now, both Mr. Rlt and I are guilt ridden, and doing even more.

It's getting to be overwhelming. I'm constantly picking up after them. I will clean the kitchen at night, and when I wake up, sometimes it's like a circus came through. They (and their friends) and all asleep on the couches or the floor. I'm left with a mess.

Laundry--no one does it. It just piles up, and again, I'm overwhelmed. I work at home; it eats up a lot of time. When I'm done, I have mess after mess to pick up. I tell them to do it; they either don't, or do a half a$$ job at it.

18 year old is going to community college this fall. With the financial fall out of the affair, we're busted. DS will have to come up with some of it. Why do I feel so guilty?

I don't get it. When I was 17, 18 years old, I was acting like a 28 year old. My dad was gone, my mother emotionally checked out. No one in my family thought college was a worthwhile endeavor. So, I figured it out for myself. I researched, filled out paper work, secured financial aid, and off I went.

My son wants me to walk him through it, can't even make a phone call. I'm guilt ridden because when affair was going on, he dropped out of high school. I wasn't there (emotionally), so I wasn't much help.

How do I get out of this trap?

rlt,

Wow. I was you. Honestly, being treated like hired help by one's family really brought out resentment issues with me.

Being the one who "brought home the bacon", cooked it, cleaned up after cooking it et. al on top of errands, house work, yard work and laundry, I was too exhausted to even consider SF.

I began to think of Skirmisher as just another child that I had to take care of. Now, the kids are grown and on their own and we are still working toward a more equitable distrubution of the day-to-day household stuff. Progress has been made.

I see alot of us in believer's post as well.

Who

Dr. Harley has a pretty good article on how the co-dependency movement is destroying marriages and how it is misapplied outside of alcoholism and addiction:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

Mel, it says "Page Not Found".

you must be smoking crack, because it works fine for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mel<---fixed dat bad boy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Busted!

Thanks for fixing it. Great article and very eye-opening for me. If you recall (or not) when I finally started to let my FWH go was after I started taking the course "Co-Dependent No More" at a local church. I did see a lot of myself in that at the time but I also "wondered" about some of the principals.

Thank you Dr. Harley for confirming some of my own feelings about it and thank YOU Mel for pointing this out.

RLT, Dr H's article is light hearted and very precise.

Thing is it doesn't really explain the situation where neither spouse in an addict but only ONE is codependent.

That was Squid and I. I thought the behaviours described as codependency were the right thing for a person to do for people he cares about and is responsible for.

When our spouse does not reciprocate it is effectively volunteering for indentured servitude.

I changed that behaviour, but I will admit it is STILL my instinct. I just do not consider myself as important as my spouse or kids. Thats just how it is.

A MB marriage does not have boundaries - there is no need if you are both practicing the 4 rules. The married couple still practice boundaries with others outside of the marital bond.

Healthy people recognize when a boundary is needed or not.

A codependent says: What boundaries?

They don't recognize their own or anyone else's.

Mrs R. - stop cleaning up for your children. They don't do it because....they know you will.

You harm them by not allowing them to learn how to do it themselves.

Clean your room, do your laundry, cook your meals. Keep blinders on for the rest of the house <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

They'll figure it out.

Rlt,

Haven't seen a good question like this in a while. Love the responses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

I have always thought that the proper order should be:

Mr. G (BobP)
Mrs. G (Squid)
Kids

Unless you look after yourself first you will never be in a good position to look after others. Your happiness will infect them. I think it is the only way to keep that ol’ Giver and Taker in balance. I suspect that you may be already acting a bit in this fashion without even knowing it. Sometimes when you think you are doing something for someone else you are actually doing it for yourself. There is no shame in that; it is in fact, healthy for you and everyone around you.

Mr. G

MrG, I am most "happy" when I am looking out for my FAMILY first. By taking care of them, I AM taking care of myself. When I am focused on my selfish interests, I am perpetually chained to myself and most certainly not happy. My happiest times come when I am SELFLESS and focused OUTWARD... not INWARD.

To me, that is the proper giver/taker balance, not putting myself first. After all, happiness comes from LIVING RIGHT, not in seeking selfish interests.


THEIR OWN happiness will infect them much more. Others happiness does not make me happy; MY happiness makes me happy.

Dr. Harley addresses this well in the article I posted:



entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

Do vicarious efforts to boost one's self esteem fit into the codependence label? (I didn't see it explicitly in Believer's list; clarification welcome).

For example:
(1) a woman who feels she is unattractive, and virtually pushes her young daughter into beauty contests.
(2) your spouse who gets upset when you don't think *they* deserve credit/acclaim/imputed-value because a child gets a good grade on an exam. [The child naturally should be praised or given positive reinforcement for hard work]

My WW seems to have a compulsion to triumph our daughter's successes and extract self-worth from that. I've used the label co-dependency for this reason and because mother/daughter often don't function as separate beings (e.g., if I was upset at one, it is assumed I am upset at the other; inappropriate use of plural pronouns (we) vs. (I); mother is overly involved in daughter's social activities).

- WG

Agree, MrG.

However., something that doesn't get much publicity is this: I get my KICKS making other folks happy. Service isn't something I perform with a grimace out of duty much of the time.

The yoke of service, especially for my loved ones, is light.

The taste of whatever i allow myself, in denying my loved ones is sour.

Thats how deep my co-dependency is.

I deliberately am NOT codependent these days. I actively learn to take fulfilment is realisation of my own needs, but it is uninstinctive to me.

I am a pretty flexible guy. Other folks seem to have strong opinions about everything, even cheese, and biro pens but I just don't. I can decide, but I'm not dogmatic. On those occasions where it IS important to me, I state my case, butit usually isn't that important to me.

Thank you all for some great responses.

Bob, I guess I'm a lot like you in many ways. Helping others makes me happy. But I confess, it wears me down at the same time. And deep down, I think what Bramblerose said is valid. If I keep doing things for the kids, they'll never learn to do it themselves. I'll send the boys out into the world and they'll "expect" their wife to do what their mom did.

It's just sort of confusing to me. The Dr. Harley article pretty much says codependence is a good thing? This is the opposite of what our MC is telling me.

And in the back of my head,wow. I grew up in house where dad left mom (an affair). Whenever he decided to come for a visit and took us out, he went on and on about his one true hero, Ann Rand--Objectivism, The Virtues in Selfishness ( oh, and of course, no God). I was raised on this. My father is the most selfish man I know. I have a relationship with him, but to this day he has not apologized for dessimating his kids.

After a visit with him, I'd go home to mom--to this day, still the most SELFLESS person I have ever known.

I was the oldest of three kids. When our dad left, mom caved emotionally. I took over. Thus, I became so a codependent.

I guess I really just don't know where to draw lines. It's all so confusing to me. Don't do their laundry? Don't make their dinner? But I thought I was supposed to.

What about school for DS18. Can I help him fill out forms, make phone calls? Or does he do it himself.

I'm just confused about it.

How true, how true. That's why I like you Bob! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

rltraveled


Sometimes it depends on what you mean by "helping."

If by "helping" (in reference to children). you mean assisting them in growing and developing good life skills - problem solving skills, the abiilty to think critically, a sense of responsibility, a sense of empathy, and a work ethic to carry them through life. Then that is a GREAT thing.

If by "Helping" you mean making their life easy so they don't have to experience failure (not always winning and coming in first), disappointment (not always getting what they want), gratification (not learning how to do the tough things just because they need to be done, sometimes) - then, in the long run, that isn't such a great idea.

There are good lessons to be learned by coming in 2nd or 3rd or even last but being able to celebrate the person who came in first. It's a good life skill to learn how to deal with not having what you want all the time - if nothing else it might help keep you out of debt later <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. And, the hard things in life come no matter what, it's best if you're prepared and confident you can go through them rather than becoming a victim.


Even worse, they'll go out into the world without the self respect/esteem you get from doing things yourself and a job well done.


I think he means more in marriage than in raising children.

But, even then, the difference between healthy, normal, productive behavior and pathology is generally a matter of scale. "Codependency" isn't binary - it's not "On" or "Off." There's a scale -- you can definitely go too far into codependency. And, you can definitely go too far away from it.

Consider the core of the MB system: POJA: "Never do anything without the enthusiastic support of BOTH spouses."

Well, YOU are one of the spouses - so if you're doing things you aren't enthusiastic about, then you're not using the MB system. You're using a martyr system -- and I'll let you in on a little secret -- no one like martyrs. If you go the opposite direction and refuse to engage your spouse's enthusiasm, then you're being selfish.

Too much codependence = you choose to be miserable so your spouse can be happy
Too little codependence = you choose to be happy at the expense of your spouse.

Either way is the lazy approach to having a marriage. It's much harder to keep in balance than it is to go to either extreme - so you have to work at it.


It's all age dependent. If they're 2 years old - yeah, you do their laundry. But, not when they're 20 (or even say... 13 or 14).


Once again, it translates into what you consider "helping." Does that mean you fill the forms out for him so they're right? Or, does that mean that you look over his forms and make suggestions for where they might be improved, why, and let him make his own decisions about what edits he wants to make. If your son is entering college, then it's a good time to give him guidance on how to do these things (help him). I've never been a fan of the whole "toss 'em into the deep end and see if they learn how to swim" philosophy. But, at the same time, if he doesn't learn how to fill out a form properly now -- while the stakes are fairly low ..and he doesn't have a wife and 2 children that don't eat that night if he screws it up -- then when is there going to e a better time?


Start asking yourself if what you're doing is a life skill he'll need later. If it is, and your help involves ensuring he HAS that life skill to take into the world (balancing a check book, doing his laundry, cooking a nutritious meal, filling out a form or application) then you're on the right track. If your help involves doing it for him so he doesn't have to hassle (but then consequently doesn't learn how) then, you might want to change your approach.

Mys

edited for spelling and formatting.

rl, there is a big difference between enabling someone and helping them. Filling out forms, for an 18 yr old is enabling because it is something he needs to learn to do himself. He never learns to do it himself, so it is not helpful. On the other hand, a 2 yr old cannot fill out forms or do his laundry, so it would be a loving act to do that for him.

However, all that is a very different dynamic from a marriage. I would do my H's laundry as an act of love. I do lots of things for him, that he can do himself, as a way of showing care to him. That would be enabling in a parent-grown child relationship, but loving in a marital relationship.

myschae hit on something very key to this discussion that I think is worth repeating, and it very much mirrors Harley's principle of the Giver and the Taker:


In a buyers marriage, neither spouse sacrifices their happiness for the other. That only leads to resentment and an emboldened TAKER. Nor do we pursue our own happiness at the expense of the other.

Of course it wears you down. It is not reasonable to expect anyone to be a perpetual “giver”. I might even suggest that it is mentally unhealthy. Do your kids a great kindness by giving them the “right tools” so that they will be prepared for the uncompromising world that awaits them.

You ask where to draw the line? I suggest that you draw it where they can be successful at the things you want them to do. That usually means “small things” where even “they” won’t give much argument. Start with the small things and work your way up. Remember, they learned how to tie their shoes and wipe their butt. Place them into a position where your praise is meaningful to them. You may not know this but children really want to please their parents. They stop trying only when the hill seems too steep to climb. It is almost always the parents that make the hill too steep. So what do you do? Give them the tools, allow them to be successful, teach them to climb. Pick your fights carefully.

Your father’s objectivist philosophy is only a philosophical view and at that it seems misapplied. It does not tell a person how to behave but is better suited to why a person behaves as they do. If Ayn Rand were alive I’m sure she would disagree with me. Your father’s selfish interest at the expense of his moral responsibility (his children) is not a virtue in any major philosophy that I know of.

Mr. G