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#1904686 07/06/07 10:37 AM
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What is your definition of the term?

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An obsessive, unhealthy need to be controlled by what another person says and feels about you. A state where one accepts (without question) another person's evaluation of one's own self worth.

Is that enough to get you started? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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so, co dependents will do anything to get people to approve of them?

Does it have anything to do with "doing everything for everybody" to "keep the peace?"

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And it has a lot to do with being so busy taking care of the other person, and taking responsiblity for things THEY should be doing, and in the meantime not working on one's own issues.

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From my CoD 12 Step Program -

Patterns and Characteristics of Codependence

These patterns and characteristics are offered as a tool to aid in self-evaluation. They may be particularly helpful to newcomers.

Denial Patterns:
I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel.
I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well being of others.


Low Self Esteem Patterns:
I have difficulty making decisions.
I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough."
I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own.
I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.


Compliance Patterns:
I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
I accept sex when I want love.


Control Patterns:
I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves.
I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel.
I become resentful when others will not let me help them.
I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked.
I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about.
I use sex to gain approval and acceptance.
I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others.

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yikes on the above post from believer.

I have 3 kids--18, 16 (boys), and 13 (a girl).

Even before the infidelity stuff, I tended to do more for them than I should have. Now, both Mr. Rlt and I are guilt ridden, and doing even more.

It's getting to be overwhelming. I'm constantly picking up after them. I will clean the kitchen at night, and when I wake up, sometimes it's like a circus came through. They (and their friends) and all asleep on the couches or the floor. I'm left with a mess.

Laundry--no one does it. It just piles up, and again, I'm overwhelmed. I work at home; it eats up a lot of time. When I'm done, I have mess after mess to pick up. I tell them to do it; they either don't, or do a half a$$ job at it.

18 year old is going to community college this fall. With the financial fall out of the affair, we're busted. DS will have to come up with some of it. Why do I feel so guilty?

I don't get it. When I was 17, 18 years old, I was acting like a 28 year old. My dad was gone, my mother emotionally checked out. No one in my family thought college was a worthwhile endeavor. So, I figured it out for myself. I researched, filled out paper work, secured financial aid, and off I went.

My son wants me to walk him through it, can't even make a phone call. I'm guilt ridden because when affair was going on, he dropped out of high school. I wasn't there (emotionally), so I wasn't much help.

How do I get out of this trap?

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rlt,

Wow. I was you. Honestly, being treated like hired help by one's family really brought out resentment issues with me.

Being the one who "brought home the bacon", cooked it, cleaned up after cooking it et. al on top of errands, house work, yard work and laundry, I was too exhausted to even consider SF.

I began to think of Skirmisher as just another child that I had to take care of. Now, the kids are grown and on their own and we are still working toward a more equitable distrubution of the day-to-day household stuff. Progress has been made.

I see alot of us in believer's post as well.

Who


I am the BW,
He is the FWH
D-Day: 12/02/03

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WhoMe #1904693 07/06/07 03:33 PM
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Dr. Harley has a pretty good article on how the co-dependency movement is destroying marriages and how it is misapplied outside of alcoholism and addiction:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

Last edited by MelodyLane; 07/06/07 04:43 PM.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Mel, it says "Page Not Found".


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
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“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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you must be smoking crack, because it works fine for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mel<---fixed dat bad boy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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you must be smoking crack, because it works fine for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Busted!

Thanks for fixing it. Great article and very eye-opening for me. If you recall (or not) when I finally started to let my FWH go was after I started taking the course "Co-Dependent No More" at a local church. I did see a lot of myself in that at the time but I also "wondered" about some of the principals.

Thank you Dr. Harley for confirming some of my own feelings about it and thank YOU Mel for pointing this out.


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“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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RLT, Dr H's article is light hearted and very precise.

Thing is it doesn't really explain the situation where neither spouse in an addict but only ONE is codependent.

That was Squid and I. I thought the behaviours described as codependency were the right thing for a person to do for people he cares about and is responsible for.

When our spouse does not reciprocate it is effectively volunteering for indentured servitude.

I changed that behaviour, but I will admit it is STILL my instinct. I just do not consider myself as important as my spouse or kids. Thats just how it is.


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A MB marriage does not have boundaries - there is no need if you are both practicing the 4 rules. The married couple still practice boundaries with others outside of the marital bond.

Healthy people recognize when a boundary is needed or not.

A codependent says: What boundaries?

They don't recognize their own or anyone else's.

Mrs R. - stop cleaning up for your children. They don't do it because....they know you will.

You harm them by not allowing them to learn how to do it themselves.

Clean your room, do your laundry, cook your meals. Keep blinders on for the rest of the house <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

They'll figure it out.


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Rlt,

Haven't seen a good question like this in a while. Love the responses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

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I just do not consider myself as important as my spouse or kids. That’s just how it is.


I have always thought that the proper order should be:

Mr. G (BobP)
Mrs. G (Squid)
Kids

Unless you look after yourself first you will never be in a good position to look after others. Your happiness will infect them. I think it is the only way to keep that ol’ Giver and Taker in balance. I suspect that you may be already acting a bit in this fashion without even knowing it. Sometimes when you think you are doing something for someone else you are actually doing it for yourself. There is no shame in that; it is in fact, healthy for you and everyone around you.

Mr. G


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MrG, I am most "happy" when I am looking out for my FAMILY first. By taking care of them, I AM taking care of myself. When I am focused on my selfish interests, I am perpetually chained to myself and most certainly not happy. My happiest times come when I am SELFLESS and focused OUTWARD... not INWARD.

To me, that is the proper giver/taker balance, not putting myself first. After all, happiness comes from LIVING RIGHT, not in seeking selfish interests.

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Your happiness will infect them.

THEIR OWN happiness will infect them much more. Others happiness does not make me happy; MY happiness makes me happy.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Dr. Harley addresses this well in the article I posted:

Quote
Those of us in the business of trying to save marriages struggle daily with cultural beliefs and practices that make our job difficult. The sudden surge of divorces in the 1970's, that has made America the country with the highest divorce rate, has a great deal to do with changes in our basic beliefs. More to the point, it has to do with a major shift toward self-centeredness. Beliefs that encourage self-centeredness destroy marriage.

Quote
4. I should keep people I love happy.

When I married Joyce, I wanted to make her happy. I know, we can't "make" anyone happy. Everyone has a huge role to play in their own happiness. But at least I wanted to try to meet her emotional needs, and I expected her to meet mine. And I wanted to avoid hurting her, just as I expected her to avoid hurting me. We both believed that we had a responsibility to each other to try to make each other happy, and avoid making each other unhappy.

I'm aware of the downside of trying to make people happy. If they turn all responsibility for their happiness over to us, we end up carrying a crushing load. But most people don't do that. It's only in unhealthy relationships that one person sucks the life out of the other. I'll get into that subject after we're done with the questionnaire, but with that qualification, my answer to this statement is, "yes."

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Do vicarious efforts to boost one's self esteem fit into the codependence label? (I didn't see it explicitly in Believer's list; clarification welcome).

For example:
(1) a woman who feels she is unattractive, and virtually pushes her young daughter into beauty contests.
(2) your spouse who gets upset when you don't think *they* deserve credit/acclaim/imputed-value because a child gets a good grade on an exam. [The child naturally should be praised or given positive reinforcement for hard work]

My WW seems to have a compulsion to triumph our daughter's successes and extract self-worth from that. I've used the label co-dependency for this reason and because mother/daughter often don't function as separate beings (e.g., if I was upset at one, it is assumed I am upset at the other; inappropriate use of plural pronouns (we) vs. (I); mother is overly involved in daughter's social activities).

- WG


BH 40, Married: 2002, Discovered affairs: Fall 2005, Divorced: Spring 2008

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Agree, MrG.

However., something that doesn't get much publicity is this: I get my KICKS making other folks happy. Service isn't something I perform with a grimace out of duty much of the time.

The yoke of service, especially for my loved ones, is light.

The taste of whatever i allow myself, in denying my loved ones is sour.

Thats how deep my co-dependency is.

I deliberately am NOT codependent these days. I actively learn to take fulfilment is realisation of my own needs, but it is uninstinctive to me.

I am a pretty flexible guy. Other folks seem to have strong opinions about everything, even cheese, and biro pens but I just don't. I can decide, but I'm not dogmatic. On those occasions where it IS important to me, I state my case, butit usually isn't that important to me.


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Thank you all for some great responses.

Bob, I guess I'm a lot like you in many ways. Helping others makes me happy. But I confess, it wears me down at the same time. And deep down, I think what Bramblerose said is valid. If I keep doing things for the kids, they'll never learn to do it themselves. I'll send the boys out into the world and they'll "expect" their wife to do what their mom did.

It's just sort of confusing to me. The Dr. Harley article pretty much says codependence is a good thing? This is the opposite of what our MC is telling me.

And in the back of my head,wow. I grew up in house where dad left mom (an affair). Whenever he decided to come for a visit and took us out, he went on and on about his one true hero, Ann Rand--Objectivism, The Virtues in Selfishness ( oh, and of course, no God). I was raised on this. My father is the most selfish man I know. I have a relationship with him, but to this day he has not apologized for dessimating his kids.

After a visit with him, I'd go home to mom--to this day, still the most SELFLESS person I have ever known.

I was the oldest of three kids. When our dad left, mom caved emotionally. I took over. Thus, I became so a codependent.

I guess I really just don't know where to draw lines. It's all so confusing to me. Don't do their laundry? Don't make their dinner? But I thought I was supposed to.

What about school for DS18. Can I help him fill out forms, make phone calls? Or does he do it himself.

I'm just confused about it.

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