Can you all tell me what I did wrong? Just a quick recap - I was in Plan A for 5 1/2 months, actually thought we were in recovery, but found out that was not the case. So after the 5 1/2 months, WH said for the second time it was over, so he agreed to send the NC letter. I've waited over two weeks for him to do so, but he hasn't. Since his job still involves travel, I overnighted my Plan B letter to him at his hotel last week. Well, he called me and blasted me big time. Saying that he thought everything was fine, how could I do a rotten thing like suprise him with a letter the day after he talked with me and we had a normal conversation, this letter was the most low down thing anyone has ever done blahblahblah.

I borrowed one of the letters from this site - apologizing for my part, saying that I loved him and would be willing to do anything, wanted to protect my love, set the condition - that he must quit the travel job and come home, and that I couldn't be with him if he refused to sever the relationship with OW.

Anyway, he went into the whole thing about how it was a Dear John letter, how I've made up my mind, I don't really love him or I wouldn't have done it, do what I want - he doesn't need anybody, etc. He totally misread it (or pretended to) and turned around everything to blame it on me.

He said that he told me th A was over and I should believe him. Made me feel like a heel. Then he said that he wanted us to stay married and that I should travel with him. It's basically unrealistic since I have a business and we have a house etc., but at that point I was feeling like this was all my fault so I said that I would try a couple of days a week. As it turns out, he was going on an assignment about 2 hours from home, so I packed and went down.

When I got there, it was the same treatment I always get. He always says he loves me on the phone, but in person he won't say it, won't look me straight in the eye, shows no affection, and basically acts like he just doesn't want me there. Anyway, while I was there, the OW called his cell, he didn't answer, and at first he tried to pretend it was our daughter, but then said it was her. I was very upset, so again he begins to bring up the letter, how I don't love him etc - turning this all into my fault. He said that he couldn't control if she calls or not and that I should believe that its over. I got so upset that I packed and left and came back home last night.

I know that blowing up was probably the wrong thing, but he told me once before that it was over, and 5 months later I find that it wasn't.

He was also furious that I called and told his brother (lives in another state and they don't talk much). His brother called and let him have it, and he is furious about it. Said that what happens between us is our business, no one elses.

Anyway, I called him this morning basically to say that I meant what I said in my letter, and that he had to commit to this marriage or it wouldn't work. Again, he attacked me with big guns. He said that I made a big mistake by leaving last night, started again on the letter and how he was still mad, he won't quit because we have bills to pay, I made the decision, so that's fine, he accused me of hiding money and threatened to have an investigator look into it, brought up all kinds of things in the past from even 30 years ago (we've been married 34), basically said that I've mistreated him for 34 years and he is sick of it, and tons of other stuff that hurt me. Anything that I said was turned around and used against me. Things came up that have never come up before - things that I wouldn't even think were significant. When we hung up, I got so depressed that I've cried all day. I'm now wondering what I've done. I feel like I've blown any chance for recovery, and I'm sinking into this deep depression. What did I do wrong??? Please help me. Sorry if this is hard to read, I'm just still so upset over this.

what did you do wrong?

you talked to him after you delivered the letter.

Plan B means you go DARK immediately.

Stop talking to him. The affair is still on and he's just unloaded on you with all his excuses.

It's crap.

Did you set up an intermediary?

It's not really about you doing anything wrong. He's still in an affair and acting like a typical wayward spouse. The redirect of blame, the anger, the avoiding of sending the NC letter... and of course, if she's calling him and he's trying to hide it, what else do you need to know? He's 100% active in this affair, and just trying to hide it from you.

WS's are very good at making you think that you are paranoid. They blame you for snooping, tell you your crazy when you have proof, and lie to your face. You just need to believe in what you see and not in what he says.

Ignore his words and anger, it's all part of him being a WS. If this were a real plan B letter, he never would have been able to contact you the moment he first receied it (if I understand plan B correctly).

The experienced members here will give you more advice. That's just my thoughts.

Plan B means NO CONTACT. Why did you talk to him? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Plan B=NO CONTACT

I know that there is supposed to be no contact, but I don't have anyone to be an intermediary. He called my work, and I don't have caller ID. I own a retail store, so I can't ignore the phone, otherwise I would not have answered. I probably should have hung up, but was too taken by surprise at the reaction. Then when my extreme guilt set in, I began to question whether I had done the right thing in sending the letter, so I felt that I had to try again. silly me....

I'm losing self confidence and feeling like a low life. Not sure why this is happening because this isn't like me. I picked up AD today, so maybe that will help me to start thinking more clearly.

You all are right - No contact. period. I need to find an intermediary I guess.

Thats the girl! Don't answer the phone at work anymore and line up an intermediary ASAP. The intermediary will be your SPAM FILTER who will only pass on ESSENTIAL information. Most especially, she must not pass on any fogbabble or any information ABOUT him.

You can call the phone company and have caller ID put on your phone usually the same day.

Thanks ML. Up to this point, he has always said that he loves me, wants to work on the marriage, does not want a divorce etc. He's really never used the babble that I read others have used (never loved you etc). I think that I was really thrown off balance by the sudden change. It made me question myself.

KG, he sounds just like a babbling wayward to me. He talks a big talk but never backs it up with action. That is the hallmark of a WS. He says alot of crap, but unless it is backed up by action, it is meaningless.

He said that he told me th A was over and I should believe him"

Obviously the affair is NOT over or the OW wouldn't be calling him, and he wouldn't be pretending it was someone else.

He would like to blame everything on you, and is purposely "misreading" your Plan B letter.

Enforce no contact by blocking his phone. It's a simple service you can subscribe to.

I know that people can be blocked from all sizes and sorts of companies because I work for such a company with over 500 employees; one customer got extremely abusive even after her refund was processed; she left vile messages on my voice mail which I forwarded to a VP - voila! She was instantly banned from being able to call from her work, her cell or her home. Her email was also blocked. The FCC states that NO ONE - no place of business and no person has to endure such abuse. Neither do you... unless you are addicted to drama and just can't stop finding out the next vile thing he has to say, and allow your love bank to continue draining.

Knitgirl

Plan B hasn't backfired at all. You didn;t effect it.

How can plan B work if you don't have plans in plac eto avoid any contact with your WH until he commits to NC an rebuilding your M ?

What were you thinking sending a plan B letter without any plan to avoid contact with WH ? What does plan B mean to you if not "no contact" ? Was this a gesture to shock your H into contrition ?

Gestures do not work on WS. Coolly arrange an intermediary, and lock down a dark plan B. This way you can protect yourself from the chaos WH brings to you each day and can hopefully protect the amount of love you still retain for him.

All blessings

he has always said that he loves me,

wants to work on the marriage,

He's really never used the babble that I read others have used (never loved you etc).

Is this truly not babble right here allll along...

all along,...
he SAYS he wants to work
he SAYS he loves you...

yet he did NO work...false endings...false recoveries

and he engaged in no loving actions...

no affection no caring not when you are together...

so his words were empty actionless things all along...

there was no sudden in change in him...

what there was...was change in you...

in your letter you claimed your boundary and stength...

you told him to do whatever he chooses...and you would no longer be there
waiting
believing
and
clinging to his empty words....which he knows dayum well were meaningless and empty...
BUT
they kept you where he wanted you....

always ready to take him in and back...

his actions have yet to be those of a MARRIED man...

so there is nothing new....

he's just pissed that you don't want to play with him anymore....

say kindly and politely....I am sorry I have to go...

and then get a new phone number for the business...

ARK

Thanks all. I screwed it up. Should have been more prepared. I thought that I was ready for that step, but maybe I wasn't in the right place emotionally. SAA says Plan A until you just can't do it anymore, which is where I was in the process. I was beginning to hate him, so I thought it was time for the next step.

I still think that I'm ready. I just need to put more procedures in place to ensure that I can avoid any contact.

The others are right. The affair is not over. You can tell by the way he treats you, the look in his eyes, the tone of his voice, and the fact that the No Contact letter was not sent.
I would re-send the Plan B letter, with a postit note saying "Do not contact me until you do the right thing."

(Or something to that effect.)

And then, go dark. Even if you don't yet have an intermediary, you can do this. Just hang up the phone if he manages to bypass caller ID or call blocking. Block emails from him or simply delete them without opening. Return snail mail with "return to sender - refused" written on the envelope. And do not accept messages or notes from him through anyone who is NOT your designated Spam Filter.

Good luck.

And get some confidence!!!

You must know that you are right.
And he is wrong.

You know that, correct?????

So, until he is going to join you on the side of doing right -- you have NO CONTACT with him.

And he will come to you CONTRITELY, REMORSEFUL, and REPENTANT. No way do you have to put up with blame, anger, and justifications.

NO!

all talk no action.......hmmmmmmmmm?

KG..know your worth.Understand your values.

You are far more that you think.
Even your WH knows this...

call it his panic mode...his "i might be losing my control of wifey" mode.

Stand for what you believe in.

all talk?.......no action........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

you see KG if he cant talk to you to try and convine you that what he is doing is justified....then he has to face himself.

let him direct his anger at himself.......its only a matter of time.

You all gave me the confidence I need. I was really doubting myself. They have a way of making you feel guilty and accepting the blame for it all.

I think the biggest problem is that you feel like you are completely throwing them into the waiting arms of the OP. In my case, she's single so its a little scary.

Be honest with him... Tell him it's just too painful for you to have any contact with him whatsoever.

Good luck!

knitgirl,

When you think of your WH, I want you to envision a drug addict. A drug addict strongly craves his/her drug and will do ANYTHING to keep their drug. They will lie to their own families. They will steal from those they love. They will put their loved ones at risk. They will even blame their loved ones for their bad behaviors! You know what I mean, right? They'd steal their mom's engagement ring to pawn it to buy some more of their drug. Right?

It's the same with you WH and the A. He is addicted. Thhe chemicals released in the brain during an A (because it's about 90% fantasy) are very similar to the endorphins a drug addict gets when they take their drug. He will do ANYTHING to continue his addiction, including lying to you, hiding it better, AND BLAMING YOU FOR THE VERY THINGS THAT HE DOES!! He will guilt you and make you second-guess yourself as a smokescreen, so that while you are thinking, "Oh man! Was it me? Maybe it is my fault" he can be continuing contact with the OW.

Go to Plan B. NO CONTACT!! None. He had the chance to choose you or choose "her" but he chose to try to have you both. Now he gets to live with the consequences of his choice, and all his blame is just his ways of saying, "I DON'T LIKE THIS COST! IT HURTS!" It is the most loving thing you can do for him to allow him to experience this pain in order to learn a long-term, lifetime lesson: unfaithfulness is not worth it! So, if he calls to your store (and it's a retail store so I understand that you have to answer), just say, "I am not willing to speak to you at this time" and then HANG UP THAT PHONE. Don't listen to his ramblings. Don't listen to his yelling and blaming. Just ignore it and let it roll off you as if you are "babble-proof."

Here's what to expect:

HE will go nuts. He will try every way possible to draw you back in. He will call zillions of times a day in different ways and all your phones. He will email. He might even show up at your house! He will rage, rant, blame, babble and make it all be that YOU are choosing to "be this way". [Pssst. No, he chose it. You did Plan A for 5 months and at any time he could have chosen to end the A and do the work of reconciling. HE chose to "be this way." You just chose to accept his choice!] He will push all your buttons. He will throw out EVERY way that he knows of to make you react in love, hurt or anger. ANYTHING! His goal is to make you flinch in some way and pick up the phone and call him.

YOU will miss him horribly. You will remember the good times and minimize the bad. You will think of a thousand reasons why you "need" to call him: the lawn, the sink, the mower, the kids, the hot water heater, the car, the schedule, the bills...a million things that you "need" to ask him about or talk to him about or get his help on. RESIST!! Figure it all out on your own. Go 15 minutes at a time if you have to at first (I did!) Just tell yourself that you are going to wait 15 minutes and not call him...and then when that time is up, say, "I'll wait 15 minutes more." I did that for a couple days and then one day I found that I went part of a day and didn't even "need" to call him. Slowly, I could go whole days and not "need" to ask him about something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, knitgirl, NO CONTACT. Prepare for a barrage--not quite as bad as the exposure storm but similar--and remember that we are here for ya!!

Your faithful friend, and Mama Killer Bee



CJ

KG, can you ask that brother to be your intermediary? If he was supportive of you and against the A, he might be able to help if he's willing.

I'm sorry it's come to this for you - but it seems to me you're getting spot-on advice here.

He's trying to have his cake and eat it too - if OW is so wunnerful, why is he putting all this on you?

I've read tons of posts here and the script your WH is following seems exactly the same as every other WH.

My M didn't end over an A, but the script was similar too - all my fault, not his fault... it's a heck of a lot easier to blame somebody else than to look in the mirror, isn't it?

Plan B - save what bit of love bank deposits you have for your H and heal yourself... the long and short of it appears to be that it will either snap WH back to reality or prepare you for something better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In loving support

JinGA

FW- Wow, that makes so much sense. I'm in gear now, and understand what I need to do. He hasn't tried to contact me in 2 days now. I think OW is with him. Sometimes I'm not even sure why he is trying to hang on to me anyway. He's been travelling now for 3 years and seems to prefer his life on the road. He refuses to quit because we have bills to pay. I guess travelling enables this A to continue.

Jin - He is so mad that the brother lashed out at him that he said he would never talk to his brother again, so I doubt that he would communicate with him. They are not close anyway due to some family issues many years ago, therefor he may not be the best intermediary. We have very little family here except our daughter. Is it ever right to ask your child to play that role? When I won't communicate with him, he tends to call her alot. Always tells her he loves me, is not leaving me etc. I asked a good friend, but it seems some people are uncomfortable that you are putting them in the middle of a personal situation.

fantastic post seej. Copied to my personal toolkit.
[/threadjack]

CJ,

I agree - fantastic post. BTW, I actually used your Sample Plan B letter linked at the bottom of your signature. It must be good because he didn't like it at all!!!

OK, NO CONTACT now firmly in place - still don't have an intermediary though. Four days so far. Can anyone chime in and tell me how long their Plan B lasted before WS decided to return (or not)? I think SAA says to give it 18months?? 18 days would be an eternity in this situation.

It is hard to predict how much time it will take, so don't think about it. Try to stay busy doing things to make your life better.

Some WS's come back quickly, and others take some time. My WH went 4 months without contacting me at all, and then called me at work one day and announced he was in the process of moving back home. Sadly, he still thought he could hang on the the OW, and we are now divorced.

In SAA, it says that most A's end within two years, but I don't know what BS can wait that long. He says give Plan B 18 months, but again, not sure how many of us can patiently wait.

What is it about a Plan B that makes the WS actually decide to come back to the M? Anybody have an opinion on that?? Is is that the A loses its spark when given an ultimatum, is it guilt, does reality sinks in, do they start to think logically about what they are giving up, what??

What it is....is reality. Until affair biochemistry wears off (which is the basis for that 18 months), and their is no more cake eating....the wayward cannot see past the fantasy he has created around the affair. Plan B, protects the love that is left by stopping all love busting from either side. In that way....with no withdrawals....the historical goodness of the marriage can raise the love bank account. Right now....he has the best of all worlds....Plan B ends that. Now, the OW.....will have to meet all of his needs, all of her flaws will become visible, and he will feel the IMPACT of the loss of the marriage for the first time. While he sits on the fence....he can go to her for newness and excitement....and go to you for the attachment and comfort. But as Plan B continues....the newness and excitement wear off. You can't maintain it....no one can.....and if you want to, you'd have to change partners every 2 years to get it!! So, before long.....the playing field will be even. He won't be "blinded" by his addiction any longer. It is at that point, that you will undoubtedly be more attractive.

But please....I caution you NOT to accept him back without clear measures of accountability. That whole "working out of town for three years"....it's crap....and it's a recipe for infidelity....over and over again. Be strong!! Be busy. Be confident. And stay DARK DARK dark.

Knitgirl

I'm pretty new to MB so I can't offer you much advice, but I am going into Plan B myself in one week (after getting SA signed) so I read your thread with interest.

My WH is living with OMW and even though Plan B has not officially started, he has started down the path of how the A was my fault and how cruel and unreasonable I am being because I did not allow him to take or see our dogs and other marital items to OMW's apartment.

I'm sure things will only escalate once he gets Plan B letter and I go dark--I think he is getting crappy advice and enabling from OMW and two of our(excuse me -- his!)friends and he is now listening to them.

Keep the faith and stay strong. These stories are such a help to me...

Plan B does multiple things, but its biggest component is protecting your willingness to reconcile. WS's are incredibly insensitive, self-centered, hurtful beings. They feel the hurt themselves but don't understand how it is self-inflicted and certainly don't want to accept responsibility, so they lash out at convenient targets (e.g., the BS). When you go dark, you protect yourself from all the Fog-induced crap that the WS spews.

If you didn't protect yourself from it, it would get to you. Some part of you would listen to it and wonder, and, since your love bank is almost certainly empty, they would be making deposits into your Anger Bank. Eventually, the Anger Bank fills up, and you can't take it anymore. You will either lovebust the WS (plan FU) or stop wanting them to return, and neither of those help marriage-building.

Plan B is a marathon, not a sprint. It's lots and lots of waiting and uncertainty. It's not easy, which is why many of the Plan B'ers band together for mutual support.

What *is* easy is falling off your Plan B. You'll be doing great, and then something will happen that triggers you, and you respond, and in a flash you find yourself lecturing the WS on just how badly they've screwed everything up or educating them on the effects of divorce or maybe just trying to reason with them again (I mean, they must be able to see the logic, right?). And almost always nothing good comes from this (you're talking to a fogged-out zombie who won't/can't hear you), and lots of harm can come (love-busting or just getting hurt yourself). Constant vigilance. Learn to recognize triggers and how to respond to them.

"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a Wayward Spouse" -- Mulan

Star*fish-

Thanks for your version of the explanation. You answered something for me that has had me stumped. Since being on this site, I've determined that my WH top ENs are SF and Admiration - something that I probably didn't give enough of. Heck, after 34 years of marriage you don't think that those things are big deals if they don't get done. You've been together so long that you don't even think about it. I figured that the OP has been meeting those needs, so I kept wondering why would he even hang on to me??? I think that you answered it for me - attachment and comfort. I guess that is what comes after 34 years, huh?? And your point about not being able to maintain the newness makes perfect sense. I hadn't thought about that.

Smartiepants - Good luck in your Plan B. Just be better prepared than I was. Don't answer that phone!! How long did you do Plan A?

SDguy - Yes, I believe that I may have been on my way to Plan FU (love the name). You're right, the old love bank hit an NSF check here recently and I had a semi-meltdown.
It looks to me like your Plan B started in Jan, right? How much longer are you giving it???? You've got to be wearing out at this point.

Knitgirl

I was in Plan A for 2 months. It was pretty good--very few LB's, tried to show him changes w/o pointing them out to him, tried to keep home and myself upbeat. He admitted the night before he moved into OMW's apartment that he had seen changes in me, that I been wonderful and it only killed him inside.

I know that it was not the recommended three months, but I cannot go any further. He was so awful that my love bank was emptying very quickly. I am hanging to last tiny remmants of love for him--Plan B is only thing that can preserve it if the M can be saved at all.

Smartie,

I did Plan A 6 months! I think that I lasted that long only because I thought that we were in recovery - twice! Silly girl me. I'm with you on the love bank thing. I was getting to that point too. My WH wasn't what I would call awful, but there was very little affection shown, no eye contact, no enthusiasm for anything etc. All the LB's...

Hang in there girlfriend <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's the conflict from the WS as he starts to recognize a little bit what he will be giving up, but the addiction is still too strong for him to give up the affair. It's good that you Plan A'd him long enough for him to admit it. I'd say you are ready for Plan B. Both of you.

I get on rarely, so pardon if I'm not up to date on your sitch...

Change around your thoughts that Plan B is going to "work", that it is a scheme or a plan to get them to come back. Plan B is all about YOU baby!

Right now your WH is the enemy for the love you have. Every word he says, every time he tries to pull you back into the sick situation (and that's ALL that posturing has been, trying to pull you back to having BOTH of you) it burns more of your love away. Plan B is about protecting that love you still have. Holding on to it and not allowing his words to hurt it.

You have upset his little world where he had a wife and a girlfriend...for many people this is the ideal. Having two people lavish attention on them. You are telling him youi are not going to be a part of it anymore, and now he has to get all that attention from just ONE person (and he will be left wanting).

It is toughest at the beginning of Plan B. The chaos and drama has been such a big part of your life. The longer you stay out of it, the easier it becomes, and the more unhappy they become.

Careful, careful now, your WH is a tricky one, liable to say and do anything to keep you both hanging on. Do NOT accept anything less than a TOTAL denial of attention from the OW. If he makes moves to come back, ask for WHATEVER you want, if he balks, you know he is not serious.

SHMI

Very good point. I do need to change the way I'm looking at Plan B, and look at it as being about me. Already I do feel some relief along with the depression, if that makes sense. The feeling of being in limbo is the worst though.

It is tough. Every thought and plan you have regarding what to do or think, or trying to read their mind, takes you right back into the emotions and drama of the situation. This is what you have to protect yourself against. Your love for him is very fragile right now, like a weak nestling, and it can't take any bumping around. Often just the thoughts about the A and the words he's spewed so far (and will, with further contact right now) will jostle that little bird till there is so much trauma it may not be able to recover, that's when people get angry and give up.

He is using every nasty trick in the book to get to a place of stasis, probably the place he's lived, and been happy with, for the past year...where he has you at home, and her on trips... He wants that back (yuk). He will try guilt, anger, wooing, promises, etc...you name it... Something like a toddler that has his bottle taken away, will try crying, yelling, SCREAMING, pleading, giving up, banging their head, to get a reaction out of you, and get what they want back in their life.

Your Plan B is about you, getting away from the guilt, ugly words (that hopefully he will regret later), and false recoveries.

All Waywards regret their decisions someday, some are faster learner than others, some figure it out on their deathbed, but those are the rare. Plan B is about holding out until HE figures it out... What it ends up doing is often speeding up the process of reality, taking yourself out of the equation, helping him see the selfish life he will lead without you...

Take care of yourself, protect yourself from the storm of his wants...his babbling is not about you, but about him getting what HE wants...

Knitgirl- Brilliant words of wisdom here.

I speak as someone who DIDN'T do Plan B when I should have. I never fully understood the motivation of "self-preservation" behind doing it but totally understand now.

By remaining in the same house, my WW not ending her A, it absolutely sapped the love I had for her. LB in the extreme.

I feel wistful sometimes that it got to that point, but since I couldn't break the logjam with a Plan B, it precipitated my DV.

I don't regret it quite frankly because I realize know that WW is in fact a narcissistic personality who would not stop her behavior. I--and my kids--are going to be better off.

But if you still have those feelings of love and want to save them, Plan B is the way to go. It sounds counter-intuitive, just like exposing the affair sounds totally cruel and mean, but it all has a goal.

This may seem like the most stupid question, but Plan B is when the WH is living with the OW?

Do you get a legal separation at this point, how do you handle the finances?

Thank you, sorry to be so dense,

SG

Everybody's plan is different. Plan B comes after a very effective Plan A. Plan A is where you begin to repair your part of the breakdown of the marriage. You repair those DJ, LB's, etc. You show them what they *could* come back to. You expose the A, and you let them know you will not tolerate the OP in the marriage at ALL. Once you have established these things, and the A continues (which it very likely does) and you feel your love slipping away, you move to Plan B, preserving what love you have left.

Plan B can be conducted in the same house (although hard to do, controversial, and doesn't provide a shock) although the best way is when they move out.

Once they have moved out, you CAN continue a Plan A, especially if you have more love to give, and are not confident you have shown the best side of yourself...

SG,

Plan A is all about showing the WS what a marriage to the BS COULD be if they stay and commit to NC and begin working on recovery.

Plan B is designed to protect the BS from having to deal with a WS who continues in an active A, showing no signs of working on anything but their own selfish desires. It removes the BS from having to deal with the affair and the disrespect that comes with it in order to preserve their own sanity AND any love for the WS that might remain so that IF and WHEN the A finally ends, reconciliation might be possible.

While the LSA is not really a part of Plan B, it is often required, especially when the WS is the primary bread winner of the family and when kids are involved. It places a legal obligation for financial support on the WS and protects the shared assets of the marriage from being stripped by a WS who is acting in a clearly selfish manner.

Plan B sometimes causes the demise of the affair by forcing the OP to have to meet all of the ENs of the WS, even the ones previously being met by the BS. This however is NOT the intent. It is designed to stop the pain while waiting for the affair to die of its own accord.

Generally speaking, the affair either ends early on in Plan A or has to die on it's own. Plan B can sometimes hasten its death, but it is really about getting away and beginning personal recovery for the BS while giving the affair time to die of its own weight and allowing for a way for the WS to actively pursue reconciliation under conditions set by the BS in the beginning of Plan B.

Plan B also allows the BS to get over the grieving process, make changes to their own life that will assist him/her in moving on if it comes to divorce and lets him/her do so without having to experience the trauma on a daily basis.

Mark

SG - I'm struggling with those questions too. I'm in the process of working with an attorney for a LSA to ensure that I continue to have my bills paid (I can't cover them all myself), and also because my WH has run up over 12K in CC bills over this A. She has no money and a gambling problem, so I know who is picking up the bills for expenses when she travels with him (and that would be my WH using marital funds).

SG,

While the LSA is not really a part of Plan B, it is often required, especially when the WS is the primary bread winner of the family and when kids are involved. It places a legal obligation for financial support on the WS and protects the shared assets of the marriage from being stripped by a WS who is acting in a clearly selfish manner.


Mark--

I have a question now b/c my sitch is a little different. In my M, I am the primary breadwinner. I am giving my WH a LSA this week because he and OMW will soon have a drastic reduction in their lifestyle and I want to protect my financial interests from them (particularly keeping the home). My concern is they will try to come after my assets when they start to get desparate monetarily. (When I say desparate, I mean they will be able to eat, live in her crummy apartment and pay their car notes--but they will not be able to go out to eat or enjoy other forms of entertainment, go on vacation or travel, have a decent home, save for retirement, or entertain friends--things they were able to do when they were in their marriages and before d-day. And my WH and his OWM LIKE their creature comforts!!!)

SP2,

If your question is are you doing the right thing, the answer is YES!

If your question is regarding how to accomplish what you seek, I have no idea since I am not an attorney and don't even play one on TV.

I think protecting the marital home is important for a variety of reasons. One that comes to mind of course is so that YOU don't lose it to foreclosure, but another is that if your goal is to eventually recover your marriage, it gives a safe landing place for the WS to return to when the fantasy bubble finally bursts and he is ready to meet your requirements to end Plan B.

Another reason to seek the LSA would be if your plans include pursuing a divorce, it is a needed first step and will start the ball rolling in that direction.

Legally your WH may have a right to 50% of the equity of the home if his name is on the deed as co-owner. Be sure your lawyer considers all the options up front, because you could end up losing the house in order to split the assets in a divorce.

Mark

Mark

My question was if I was doing the right thing. Thanks for the feedback!

Also, the LSA will keep you from being responsible for any debt that they run up trying to maintain the lifestyle. Once it's in place, you aren't responsible anymore. My WH has run up huge CC debt spending on the OP, and I don't want to incur anymore.

[color:"red"] EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

OK, been almost a week now and he has not tried anymore contact. Depression starting to set in, but I think my AD are starting to help otherwise I may be lower than I am. At least they help me sleep.


Right now I feel like just ending the whole thing and going to Plan D and getting on with my life. After 34 years, if I have to go through all of this just to keep my spouse, well, what kind of a marriage is that anyway? If I have to force him to choose me, then maybe we aren't right for each other after all. Has anybody else had these questions at this stage?? I guess you just start to wonder if its all worth it. Maybe this is normal, I don't know....

Only every day.

Especially at this stage. You have your own withdrawal period, and it's worst for the first week. Things will gradually get better, but it's still a roller coaster.

Stick with the meds. Taking care of yourself (eating, sleeping, having some fun) is very important, but it's hard to do when you're depressed.

Yes, yes, all that and more...you will continue to think what ifs...but really these are just guesses, and mind-reading, and takes you back there. I've heard some folks keep a Plan B journal...keep track of your thoughts and feelings...so WHEN recovery happens, you can share this part of your life with your S...this history they missed because they were in their own world (thinking about you...)

Thanks SD and SMI. Remember when you were a kid and they were choosing members for the team, and you stood there with your hand waving saying "choose me, choose me" and you knew all along that you would be the last to go because you were the worst player? Well that's how I feel right now.

Here I am, a successful business person with an MBA, good personality (or so I'm told), not an ugly duckling (I'm 52 but people guess me at 40ish most of the time), intelligent and outgoing - but I feel like a big, insignificant nobody. I'm here chanting "pick me! pick me!" - I need to work on getting my self esteem back somehow.

All righty then,,,,thanks for allowing me the pity party. I'm going to wake up tomorrow and get a freakin' life!

Yeah, that's a pretty typical one, and moreso for women, I think.

So, I've only read what's posted in this thread, but I'll take a stab at this--the affair was not about you, especially if his affair is a romantic affair. There's a good thread around here about romantic affairs that I'll try to dig up for you.

You're not broken--he is.

SD-
Yes, I would appreciate it if you could find that thread. Wondering why a "romantic" affair is different from others.

Years ago there were many posters who were finding a similarity between their WS's and found they were wandering with someone who was 'less than' the BS. The thought was, it is the WS that has the low self-esteem and was going for someone they could feel 'better' than. How about THOSE apples?

Well, I feel that my WH did affair down. I feel really bad saying that because it sounds so snobbish and conceited. It's just that she has failed marriages, financial troubles, and addictions in her past. I can proudly say that I don't have those things, but I probably have other "issues" that she doesn't have maybe? Who knows.

I bumped the threads for you. Lots of information in there about romantic affairs. My take is that romantic affairs are different from exit affairs and philandering affairs (both of which are situations where saving the marriage may not be worth it) and are what we typically deal with here. Dramatic change in personality for the wayward, addictive behavior, all that stuff.

SD,

I hate to be dumb, but I can't find them. How do I get to them???

Nevermind - I see them now.... Sorry, brain f**t

What's an exit affair and why is not worth saving?

HWW

Again, this is just my take. Exit affairs occur in bad marriages when things deteriorate so much that someone has already projected themself out of the marriage and starts up with someone else before it's done. "This sucks. I'm finished with this marriage. I know that I don't want to be with this person, so I'm going to get out. Hey, what's over here?" They're so unhappy that they just don't care about whether it's right or wrong.

As opposed to "Hey, what's over here? Wow, this new person makes me feel great. My old marriage must have really sucked, otherwise I wouldn't feel so good now, right? It must have been over. Yeah, I'm sure of it. What I'm doing isn't wrong." which is the romantic affair. People wake up from romantic affairs and wonder what the ****** they were thinking while they were wayward. Romantic affairs occur more often in good marriages than bad ones.

People in romantic affairs probably want to believe that they are in exit affairs, but most often they are deluding themselves.

In an exit affair, there may be good reasons why the WS and BS are incompatible, thus my comment that the marriage *may* not be worth saving. If I could believe that my WW were in an exit affair (as opposed to romantic), I would have thrown in the towel some time ago.

I'm not sure whether this makes sense to anyone other than me. Let me know.

SDG

don't feel bad about speaking the truth

he DID trade down

it's just a fact

SDG

I tend to agree with your analysis. In my sitch, I think my WH is having a romantic affair, but the OMW is having an exit affair. The reason I say this is because OMW has been adamant since she moved out of her marital home that she had no intention of returning to her marriage--her only long-term goal was to re-connect with her children once the marriage was dissolved. She is not fence-sitting or cake-eating at all! My WH is taking the more typical fence sitting/cake-eating approach.

Thanks Pep. I needed that ego boost in the worst way. Some days are worse than others.....

Well, I got a very nasty email today telling me that he had no plans with OW or anyone else (in all caps), that I made a mistake by doing this (Plan B), that I was the one who wanted this separation, that he didn't want me to do anything for him, and that no one asked me to take care of the house (what am I supposed to do, I live here). Ugly, ugly. Are we sure that this is the way Plan B is supposed to go? Do they always lash out like that?? I'm worried that he's going to cut me off financially, and I can't really support myself at this time. Yikes. I didn't think it would go over like this.

CJ,

I went back and read your post, and damn, it's just as you said it would be. You go girl!! You were so right-on about this.

Have you secured your finances?

I told ya ... that step is before Plan B....

Your WH is blowing smoke up your wazoo.... he's playing the "fear" card .... hoping to fighten you ...

ignore

IGNORE

do NOT respond

keep records of ALL his threats

be silent ~~~> it bothers him you don't want to be his faithful "buddy" while he's off "doing" someone

NO RESPONSE

OK?

Yep, I got it - no response. I did go to an atty, but we didn't do an LSA because WH was not hostile, and was paying bills etc. Looks like he is now getting hostile. If you are in Plan B, should you let the atty do all of the contact? Atty recommended that if I want an LSA that I should contact WH and work out the division of assets etc., but I'm trying to remain dark. Anybody been through the LSA while on planB???

Be sure you are protected financially. But since you are early in Plan B, he is just blowing smoke. Chances are good that he will test your Plan B, so be sure to go very dark. Don't let him get ANY of his needs met through you. Let OW start meeting them all.

Thanks Believer. They sure do manage to put a guilt trip on you though. It's hard not to go to PlanFU when you're getting this much hostile feedback....

He's an insane Alien. He has nothing useful to say, so don't listen to him. And don't try to reason with him.

Dark, dark, dark.

SD,

Isn't that the truth?

Question - Is there anyone on the site who had a successful Plan B where WS returned and recovery was successful? It seems that the posts I've read where Plan B is active finds most engaged in legal separations or D proceedings. Just curious - also trying to keep the faith so that I don't give up. This sure is hard....

Mimi, Mortarman, MyWifeILove are a few. Maybe someone else can mention some more. I certainly can use all the inspiration I can get.

You and me both, SD. Today (somewhere here) I read Lori's Plan A (I think it was Lori) and I wondered if maybe I didn't do as good of a job in Plan A as I should have. My personality is such that I just don't have that kind of patience though. My self esteem was going down the tubes and I was getting resentful.

Is it ever OK to switch back to Plan A if you think that you can do a better job? If I did that now, I fear WH would think that I was willing to live with his A, which I'm not. Just a thought...

You Plan A'd for over FIVE MONTHS, please do not start questioning yourself because your WH is having a temper tantrum!!!

STAY DARK!
You are dangerously coming close to falling for the trap of FEAR. Do not take a step back-- you will ONLY PROLONG the affair!

Thanks for the wake up Mojo. And you are right, Fear is overtaking me right now. That's why I need you all to keep telling me that I'm doing the right thing. Questions, questions, questions - floating through my head - did I Plan A long enough, I know I had some LB's during Plan A so did they hurt me, does he hate me now, does he think that I don't love him anymore, and on, and on, and on....I want them to go away but they won't. I HATE this feeling!

Knitgirl, you stay put safe and sound in Plan B. Come here and post every hour if you're tempted to talk to WH. DON'T YOU CONTACT HIM!!! He's giving you guilt etc. because he's mad that you didn't just roll over and let him have a girlfriend while he's married to you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

He is going to try EVERY trick, remember??

He is going to put EVERY button, remember?

You are going to think, "Maybe if I had done this or that, he'd come back" or "I need to call him about the XYZ bill because he has to pay it." Remember??

You can do it, knitgirl!!! This is according to plan. You're doing a good job!! He doesn't hate you. If he did, he wouldn't give a rip if you went into Plan B or not. Rather, he sort of still likes you and what you can provide, and he likes OW and the infatuation/fantasy he thinks she can provide. He's just mad because he thought you'd say, "I'm so glad you're finally happy and in love. Sure, go ahead and have a girlfriend and I'll be right here to fall back on if you need me. I don't mind just waiting around for you because you are SUCH a neat person! You keep the house, the kids, and all my money and all her money...okay?" It is beginning to dawn on him that it WON"T be a lovefest! It is beginning to dawn on him that this is going to COST him and HURT him...and he doesn't like that. It is beginning to dawn on him that he is going to lose some things that are precious to him, and in exchange for what? OW isn't all that perfect.

The trouble now is that he has to admit that to himself. Every time you contact him IN ANY WAY, he has his crutch and doesn't have to face himself cuz he can blame you. But if you do not contact him, and his life is still a mess or even worse, he has not one he can blame but himself and eventually he'll have to face himself! It may take a while--many WS's are VERY stubborn--but the less you contact him the better it is for HIM and the better it is for you to be living in peace.

Stay strong!!!


--CJ

Thanks CJ. Don't know if you read my post to you yesterday or not - but you were right-on about his reaction. Good call by you. And deep down I think that I know this is what to expect, but there are still those little demons lurking around in my brain causing me to second guess myself.

Thanks so much for the encouragement. I almost called him tonight. Now I feel so much better and reassured that I'm going to take my AD and go to bed with my two dogs. We all sleep well together, although they don't give me much room to move.

Oh, we have had lots of Plan B successes, so don't worry about that. I'll make a list of the names sometime. It is very long. But often they stop posting and are working on their marriage.

Another problem is for those who live in states that allow a quick divorce - like Idaho. It is something like 6 weeks or less. That is problematic for the MB plan. If Plan A is done for several months, and the divorce has been filed, time runs out, and the couple is divorced before there is time to work the plans.

There there is also a large number of BS's who decide to throw in the towel after they get into a Plan B. I think men especially tend to meet someone and move on.

Your husband is used to having you beg for his attention. How do I know this? His tantrum at the beginning of your Plan B - then his silence for several days, thinking he could out-last you on the silence, and you'd be begging for contact again... only to have you mean what you say... so now he's screaming again....

Stay dark. Let your letter show that you really mean what you say.

Believer,
Yes, would love to see the list. It's good to know that there are that many out there. Not sure about my state and how long a D would take, but I suspect it is a lot longer than 6 weeks - just judging from others that I know who have been thru it.

KA - I think you are right. Turning into a test of wills I guess. I will out last though!!!! I will.

Your Plan A was not perfect
it was flawed

just like everyone else's Plan A !

If you stop Plan B now, your WH will know you do not keep your word, you have no boundaries, he can bully you like a 3-year-old having a temper tantrum in the store until you buy him a toy to get him to stop misbehaving

do NOT make yourself a liar

there is already one liar in your marriage

your M does not need another liar

be a woman who keeps her word
even when doing so is difficult

you mentioned a diminished self-esteem ~~~> guess what giving into your fear will do to your self-respect ???

show yourself RESPECT and your self-esteem will follow along

lowering yourself in order to be hurt by a bastherd <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> alien will not create more self-respect/self-esteem

next time you are tempted to talk about "self-esteem" .... change it to "self-respect" .... use that term .... it will make you stronger .... and being stronger will raise your self-respect-esteem

Your Plan B homework for today is:

list 5 things that you will do this week to show self-respect

then do them

The Mama Killer Bee CJ will assign the next homework assignment

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

and what the demons say to you is a lie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

the demons tell you that you can MAKE your husband change if you do ~this or that differently~

and that is a LIE

you must change yourself

YES!

YOU need to change <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

the demons are liars, don't listen to them .... they are telling you that you have the power to fix WH ....

you do NOT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

KG:

To answer your question from the other thread:

Knit:

I never left.

I was a cake-eating WS. BS didn't even know about the A for the first 3.5 years. and afriad to confront for the last year.

Check this thread: Its Curtains for LG

It gives you the overview of my dday.

LG

Knit:

It's time for your WH to wear his "big boy boxers"

face the discordant music of his choices and experience uncomfortable consequences

if OW is sooooooooo darned "wunnerfull"

then why, oh why, is is in a panic when he can't have HIS WIFE whenever he wants to???

Be absent from his mess....

A B S E N T

otherwise, you are allowing him to hurt you at will

DISallow him to hurt you

CJ Mama Bee will be checking your homework !

get cracking ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

PS

Knit girl

do you know how to tell when your WH is lying???

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

his lips are moving

Pepper,

OK, so you made me laugh which was a good thing. It's 4:40pm here, and it's just about that time of day where the AD wears off and I start to get depressed. About then I need to log on here and start reading posts so that I can lift my spirits somewhat before I go home to the empty house! Thanks so much. Honestly, if I hadn't found this site and all of the encouragement, I would really be in bad shape. Everyone here gives me the courage to keep going and knowing that I'm doing the right thing. Also, that this wasn't my fault....

Hey Knitgirl,

Well, I was in Plan B for nearly 9 months (with a one month false recovery in there to BOOT). I did not do a stellar Plan B, and I have wondered if that is why the A lasted so long (from September to May). This was his second PA. PWC (my FWH) returned home May 5th. It's been two months and we are just really getting into working on the M. He's still there, he's being honest and open, so I'm gonna keep working.

I don't think anybody does a perfect Plan A, as there is no such thing as perfection, AND you are learning as you are trying to hit a groove, that lends itself to mistakes. Just stick to the darkness. Work on you, your interests, things you've always wanted to get into.

Your WH's reaction sounds pretty typical, so don't worry over that. In fact, don't worry about him at all. If you can get the LSA, to secure finances, I would go for it. It is important that you make it obvious that this is for finances only, not that you are filing for a D. My FWH ASSUMED that I was going to file because I was ironing out the details of a D, prior to filing.

Just keep swimming...

SilentL,

I was afraid that he would take the LSA as a D. My atty said that he could come back with a D. I was somewhat afraid to provoke him. I know that I have to do it though because we can't afford to run up any additional debt "impressing" OW.

I took my daughter to dinner tonight, and she said that he told her that he thought that I as having an A with an older friend of my daughter's!! Can you believe that?
I broke down crying in the middle of the restaurant. Is this more wayward bull$%#& or what? DD25 thinks he is a d-head.

So knitgirl....

Did you do Pep's homework? Did you make a list of five things you're going to do this week to show self-respect?

That's a good homework assignment! In the spirit of doing this together, here are the five things I'm going to do this week to show self-respect:

1. I'm going to take time to do a blog/journal every day this week--even if it's just a short time for me.

2. I'm going to speak up about one thing that is bothering me...just one. I'm going to be brave, and use the W-T-F-S format: "WHEN you (do this or that)--I THINK (I'm unappreciated)--I FEEL (sad and lonely)--SO I would like to request (that we do this instead)." This is assertive and transparently honest, but not blaming or DJ.

3. I'm going to read my Bible every day at the beginning of the day.

4. I'm going to fix my shirt that has a tear in it, because that little tear bothers me. It's weird to be bothered by a tear, but I am.

5. I'm going to have one, frilly, girly bubble bath with candles, bath oil and scented soap because I deserve it.


Now...knitgirl...what are YOUR five things that you are going to do this week for self respect? I'm going to tell you how *I* did every day on my five things, and I will expect the same from you. We are going to swim this TOGETHER!

Your Mama Killer Bee,



CJ

CJ,

Yes, I've been thinking about this and have come up with the following:

I need to make a better environment for myself. So...

1. Getting up tomorrow morning to clean the house and make it [censored] and span. My heart hasn't been in it lately, but that needs to change. I'm going to shovel the dust out and make this baby shine. I'm in it alone, but I'm going to make it the most pleasant place to come home to. I will feel good and clean.

2. We have a new market (like a Whole Foods) and I am going to go there and get a whole bunch of colorful, fresh foods to cook, and I am going to fill my empty fridge. Instead of eating restaurant leftovers each nite, I'm going to cook a nice, very fresh meal, set the table with my finest china and silver, get some beautiful fresh flowers and dine alone. I will enjoy my own company.

3. I'm going to give my dogs a bath (I've neglected them and they have been so there for me). They will respect me.

4. I'm going to go at least 2 days this week without crying over this. Aiming for an additional goal of one more day every week. That means in one more month, the crying will be over. No more headaches. I will look better.

5.I haven't been a very religous person for most of my life, but I'm going to say a special prayer each evening. It's never to late to start. I need a faithlift more than a facelift right now. Facelift can come later. I will be at peace.

That's my plan. I will check in everyday and let you know how I've done. Thank you for your kindness. That alone brings tears to my eyes. Complete strangers seem to care about me more than the person to whom I've been married more than 34 years.

OK, so 10 days in and WH has not tried more contact. We aren't formally separated, but since he travels full time, he is just staying away totally. I'm sure OP is now travelling with him, which hurts.

My terms were quit job and come home permanently, which he refuses to do. Whether he continues the A or not, a marriage can't survive with 100% travel.

Very lonely in this large house. The house if for sale because we wanted to move anyway, but we've had no activity on it. It's sale will force a decision for both of us I guess.....


CJ - Step one is done and house is clean. It does feel better but still lonely. Am not able to keep tears away today, so will now go up to bed and let it all out....

I wrote back on your other thread; it is withdrawal that you suffer, and it will come and go, but you will be okay.

Thanks SL. I started reading your thread.

Hang in there. As you do more and more things for yourself, your self esteem will come out of the toilet. Cleaning is good therapy. My home never looked as good as after D-Day. I cleaned it sparkling clean, rearranged everything, organized, made a garden, painted, exercised, started my own business, detailed the car, and went out with friends. It kept my mind off the infidels, and made me feel GOOD.

Thanks Believer. You have been such an inspiration for me since your age and sitch are so similar to mine. I think that part of my problem is that I'm frightened because I also started my own business and I just don't make enough to support myself. If this goes to D and I don't get any spousal support, I may be hurting. I don't want to be headed to 60 yrs old with no income. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You will do just fine. I doubt that it will go to divorce. But in the worse case, you won't have a problem finding someone else. There are men all over the place. I know you want your hubby, but don't be afraid.

I'm older than you, and poorer too, and not much to look at. But I've been fighting off the men. They just keep turning up. It's not like the old days when women over 50 were alone for life. Now days there are so many singles that it's no problem.

So put your fears aside and know that you will be just fine. And the odds are in your favor of him returning to the marriage.

My WH had a 4 year affair and it ended. OW is back with her husband, and my ex is ALONE and MISERABLE.

I hope that I can meet you someday. You are a very cool person. Were you M as long as I was (34yrs)? Would you ever take the X back? Did he want to come back? Just curious. And you are right - 50 is the new 40 (or so I keep telling myself). Do you read MORE Magazine? I highly recommend it.....

Haven't read the magazine but I will check it out. I'm a reader, and read EVERYTHING.

No, I was only married to him for 12 years. But the thing that was hardest was that we had planned a retirement together. We raised 8 kids together and it was finally going to be OUR time. He and OW took care of THAT. They spent all of our money. WH was like a crazy man, spending several thousand a week. Like a dummy, I was working on getting him back, and let him do it.

Anyway, the affair ended just two weeks after the divorce was final! He always insisted that she was such a good woman, and not interested in money at all, it was the furthest thing in her mind, blah, blah, blah. But she dumped him like a hot potato when the money ran out.

She is back with her hubby, and lives down the street about 6 houses. So I get to see her almost every day. My ex wanted to get back together, but I was DONE. I lost all respect for him. In fact, he came by yesterday again. He looks terrible and is a broken man. I even feel bad for him, but not interested in even talking with him. I'm polite, but "busy". He wants to talk to me about the kids, and our grandkids who he ripped out of my life.

Believer,

Were the 8 kids from previous marriages? How did he take the grandkids from you? Why can't you still see them.
Sad for your XH. My brother left his wonderful wife for his A partner who we all called PsychoB... and he often said that it was the biggest mistake he ever made. PsychoB then ended up leaving him!! What goes around, comes around as they say.....

I have 2 boys, and he has 3 girls and a son, and their step-sisters. It is complicated.

Through the almost 4 years of his affair, lots of things happened. One of his daughters let him and OW use her home for the affair, so that caused a rift between us. He continued to deny the affair, and another daughter told me he had a secret affair phone, and like a dummy I confronted him. That caused problems between that daughter and I.

I'm still close to his son, his oldest daughter and the step daughters. But I haven't seen 4 of my grandchildren in 4 years. My WH brings the OW to all of the family things.

I had to break Plan B tonight. Took my daughter to emergency room with abdominal pain, so had to call and let him know. I was doing so well today too - didn't really have the urge to call like I did last night. Anyway, I kept it very matter-of-fact, told him the news and told him that I would have her call when she came out. After I heard his voice, I soooo wanted to talk but didn't. He didn't talk either, so it was easy to hang up. Anyway, nothing serious and she is Ok. Whew...

Glad to hear that your daughter is okay. Also glad to hear that you did so well. That's an easy spot to get triggered or slip up and talk.

Congratulations!

Thanks SD. I have a session scheduled with Jennifer tomorrow. Haven't you spoken with her? Do you like her??

I gonna challenge you on that.

It was NOT necessary for you to call him.

It was not life-threatening. Your daughter is an ADULT, she can call him with reports on her health.

Part of what he has forfeited is the right-to-know in detail what is going on.

So why did you break your Plan B? Were you craving an opportunity to talk to him? Don't start inventing excuses to see if he's come to his senses yet. It undermines your plan.

Oops. I guess Lexxy has a point.

I have had several sessions with Jennifer and like her a lot. I think you'll be very happy with what you get from her. Let us know how it goes.

Lexxy,

Good challenge, and you are right. My daughter is 25. Due to pain killers after an accident, she has had an addiction problem which has been a roller coaster ride. She still abuses, and some doctor is giving her Methadone which she also abuses.

In addition, she has contracted MRSA (a highly resistant form of bacteria) which hasn't been able to be gotten under control. I;ve tried to understand why, but still don't get it. Maybe one of the doctors on here can explain it.

Anyway, life is very fragile for her so therefore is the reason. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if something really bad happened and I didn't let him know.

Obviously, the stress of this situation has contributed greatly to the marital problems. I've lived in ****** with her for almost 3 years now, which I'm sure has been one reason WH doesn't come home much. There have been days that I haven't blamed him - would have traded places in a heartbeat, but most days I resent that he leaves me to deal with it alone.

I'm no doc, but work in a hospital where we are concerned with infection control. MRSA used to be mainly in persons hospitalized, or in nursing homes, but is spreading to the community. She needs to be sure she practices good hygiene, washing her hands, avoiding skin to skin contact with carriers, or objects - towels, personal items, etc.

I understand its stressful to be left to deal with those situations alone.

But you don't have to forgive yourself for anything.

One of the consequences of his choice is that he won't be there for DD. In fact it sounds like he made that choice long ago.

So, no need to break Plan B for a dad who wasn't ever there anyway....

Believer, Lexy,

You're right, he hasn't been there for her. I had her in rehab last year, begged him to come home but he didn't. She really needed him then. Worst part was, I recently found out that he went with OP when her son was in rehab. That really hurt.....

Maybe I was looking for a reason after all.

Now back to a solid dark Plan B. When you feel you need to break NC, come here first.

Are you going to Alanon, or whatever it is for drugs?

Thanks Believer. I'll come here first. Just a warning - I may be on here all night tonight. One day I'm up, the next rock bottom. I hate this.

I tried to go to an AA meeting, but honestly got nothing out of it. I wanted to know what to do when she is screaming, yelling and demanding money. Seemed like all they talked about was the touch-feely stuff. I needed some hard and fast behavior coping advice. I tend to be a black and white, results oriented person - obviously which is why I'm having so much trouble in my current situation. I want something to happen now. I'm used to making things happen now, and this is sheer agony for me.

I hear you.

(((KG)))

You might check out a ToughLove group. You will meet a lot of folks who are going through the same thing, or WORSE. My ex and I attended for year for problems with our daughter - she was a real handful. And her mother is a life long druggie, so we were really worried. Luckily she snapped out of it and is now happily married with 2 kids.

MRSA.....
..Methicillin (type of penicillin) resistant (The darn little bug changed so the drug doesn't kill it anymore) Streptococcus (type of organism) Aureus (more specific member of the strep family.

These organisms have developed over time due to survival of the fittest and adaptation. We get a bug, we go to the DR., he gives us antibiotics. We feel better and stop taking them. We feel better because we have killed off 90% of the bugs. However, those 10% that survived were stronger. Now they know what the antibiotic looks like and they adapt (change something in the structure of their cell wall) so that if that antibiotic shows up again it doesn't do anything to them.

This is why the Dr. should only give antibiotics for bacterial infections, they don't work on viruses (you need an antiviral agent), You also must ALWAYS take every one of the pills prescribed and not stop until they are all gone. (Kill EVERY ONE!!!)

So, we have created several of these bugs that are resistant to almost every antibiotic we have. The good news is that if someone's immune system works well it usually isn't a problem (you get carriers, like typhoid mary, they aren't sick but can pass the bug along). If your immune system isn't working well, other diseases, poor nutrition, age, etc. then you are more likely to become infected. It's a royal pain in the @@@ to treat and finally put into remission. That's why prevention is so important. But given the right set of circumstances it can be a losing battle.

Hope this helps

FTS

Fled,

Thanks for the explanation. I know that in some circumstances it can be fatal. She has seen a specialist, but I'm sure that she doesn't take all of the antibiotics.
Are you a doc?

Believer:

Where does one find such a support group??? Is it part of AA?

It is ToughLove International. But it is more for teens. How old is your daughter again?

She's 25, but acts like a teenager. Very, very immature for her age.

You probably need to go to some sort of support group to get through this too.

How long has she been acting out?

It's been about 3 years now. Somehow, she managed to get her Bachelor's Degree through all of this. Just can't seem to get through the addiction issues.

Good for her! Just be sure you are not enabling her in any way.

So have you thought of something else to contact your husband about?

knitgirl;

there is a great support board called conductdisorders.com.
it is also more geared towards kids/teens, but I would think you could find some other links and info on dealing with bi-polar, addictions, etc.

best of luck on that.

Thanks Lex and Believer for the help with finding support for my daughter. There's a good person in there somwhere, and we just need to get her back.

I had my session with Jennifer tonight, and she was wonderful. Because of my circumstances and my screwed up Plan B, she suggested that I write one more letter before going dark. She told me the points that I should make, and how to say it. She is going to review it tomorrow, so hopefully I can send it then. If he doesn't respond, then I go dark. At least we decided there is some hope here.

Glad to hear it went well, KG. Keep us posted.

OK guys, I’ve been gone for over a week but I wanted to let everyone know what is going on in hopes that it might help all of us. I thought about starting a new thread, but didn’t want to get too many going, so I’ll continue with this one.

As you know, I totally screwed up my first Plan B. WH and I didn’t talk for about two weeks. He came home last week to pick up his mail (he travels every week) and left again. Very tense while he was here and not much conversation. He says “You made a mistake, it’s over with her.” I bet. Next day I go down the tubes to the depths of depression (don’t you just hate this roller coaster ride?).

I decide to call Jennifer. I tell her my story. Just to refresh your memories it’s this – WH has A with OP while travelling on a long term assignment. For 5 months, I thought we were in recovery only to have 2nd dday. During the 5 months, I think I did a pretty good Plan A. A few DJ’s here and there, but overall pretty darn good. Once during this time, WH let me hear a vm from OP telling him “I thought we were in love, but evidently that is not the case. I’m going to send BS a “care package” and F up your life.” So after hearing that, I thought it was over. Since OP is in another state and WH travels for his job, this has been hard to monitor. Anyway, Jennifer said that it sounds like he has tried to end this thing but can’t. She suggested writing a letter telling him that I want to get a new life with him, outline the MB Plan, ask him to come up with ideas together on how we can move forward and get a new lifestyle. So, I write the letter and send it email asking for feedback by last weekend.

Now it gets confusing because of the mixed messages I start to receive. Saturday WH calls and says he got email. He started by saying that he didn’t like some ideas that I outlined for this reason or that, then went on to talk about some other things. He said that he was in a town about 2 hours away, so I suggest that I drive down and we’ll talk. No, he’ll just come up tomorrow morning. I really want to go, but he is adamant that I not come. Finally he says he will come home that night.

He gets here, we talk for about an hour. We tried to talk without arguing, which we did pretty good at, and talked about all of the things wrong in our M over the years etc. He says that I’m trying to change for him and be something that I’m not. I say that’s not true. I’m trying to be the person that I would like to be, and that we should make each other happy. He insists that I’m doing this because I’m afraid of losing him, and I say I’m doing it because I love him and want to be a better person. Anyway, he gets up to leave and drive back. I ask why he has to drive back at 9:00pm, just one hour after he got here, and he says he has to be somewhere else Sunday blah blah blah. Said he needed time alone (that was a new one). I suspected that OP was with him and he needed to get back for that reason. He continues to tell me it’s over with her. Anyway, we start to argue a little and he says this just isn’t working and starts to walk out.

After almost 7 months, I just get fed up and go into Plan FU. I just cracked and it came out of nowhere. I say fine, you’re right, this isn’t working. I tell him that I still don’t want a D, but I am going to file for an LSA. He says fine, if you can’t pay ½ of the bills (he knows that I can’t) get out. Now, this is the point where I usually break down and cry, but this time I was a force to be reckoned with. In your face. I say fine, I’m out. I start to go upstairs to pack. He follows. I’m telling him that tomorrow I will open my own account and pay my own bills, and he can take care of all the other ones for the house – I’ll mail them to him on the road and he can take care of it. And also, I’ll give everyone his phone number (realtor, landscaper, grass cutter, alarm company etc) and he can deal with showing the house and all of the maintenance. At that point, I could see panic setting in.

One of the ENs that I do exceptionally well is Domestic Support. While he has travelled the last 2-3 years, I have stayed behind and taken care of a big house, lots of land, rental property, a business, an elderly parent, a kid with an addiction problem, and 2 dogs. My days are 18 hours long. Just opening our mail everyday is an hour job. I take care of all bill paying, taxes, investments, and all of the other crap that goes with everyday living. Our house is immaculate and well decorated – nice place to be. Yes, while he is out playing the single life with his OP, I am back managing his real life. No way does he want to assume all of that crap. So at that point, he back pedals and says, no,no, you stay in the house. He’s now following me around the house trying to hug me, but I won’t let him. He says that I can have the house and I tell him I don’t want the mother effer. At this point, he starts cracking up because I never act or talk like this at all. So we both start laughing.

He keeps trying to hug me, and I resist, so we again start to argue. When we were on vacation a couple of months ago, he treated me so badly (except when he wanted SF) that I told him I felt like a ho (LB I know, but I was ticked). So, he started bringing that up again saying that it made him feel awful. He kept going on and on about it so I tell him to shut up and quit bellyaching about it because I kinda liked feeling like a ho. The look on his face!! Again so unlike me to say something like that! Anyway, he started laughing again, and we both started laughing. He came over, grabbed me and started hugging me, laughing and laughing. He couldn’t stop. He said that he loved me and didn’t want to lose me. Anyway, he said that he wanted to stay the night, I said Ok. Yes, SF (I know, I know) but it seemed like the thing to do at the time. Several times through the night he grabbed my hand and squeezed it, and several times he hugged me and told me he loved me.

So, he gets up at the crack of dawn, gets in the shower, I look at cell phone to find OP has called in middle of the night, I say it isn’t over is it, he says I don’t believe him and he storms out.

OK, so now after 7 months, 2 false recoveries, and one failed plan B, I decide I can’t do this anymore. I send an email with my second PBL, only this time I tell him that I will not be doing any administrative or maintenance to the house, I will take over my own bills, have realtor etc. work with him and so on. I tell him that we can work out an asset split where he can keep the house. I figure at this point, Domestic Support is about the only EN that I’m providing, so it has to go bye bye, or babye as they say. I tell him I will not talk about our future until he agrees to commit and NC with OP.

The next day, I get an email telling me that he loves me, that I made him laugh for the first time in a long while, he wants me to go on a two week international trip with him next month so that we can get a new start, he wants to grow old with me and no one else, and that no one can ever replace me.

Now I’m really confused. I call Jennifer and she says that he wants a relationship with me, but I need to give him a plan. She says to write back and tell him that we can do it if he really wants it, but we have to come up with something new that will work (all the MB stuff). So I write the letter and send it off yesterday. Nothing back yet. She says give him a week or so, if I don’t hear from him continue with my very dark Plan B.

So there you have it folks. I’d love some feedback from you. I hope that my experience will help some of you too. I haven’t posted much because up to this point, my life is such a mess that I didn’t feel like I was qualified to give anyone else advice. I will become more active at posting because I realize that these things may be of help to some of you as well.

Sounds like good news. But he STILL appears to be cake eating. Follow Jennifer's advice and see what happens next.

Plan FU works for some people, but now I would get back to a real plan.

Believer,

Yep, cake eating, that's what I'm thinking too. I know, not supposed to be Plan FU, and that's not my nature at all, but I just couldn't control it. I guess so many months of resentment building up got the best of me.

If he doesn't respond by weekend, it's 6 feet under for me. Ain't no light down there....

Great! And stay very very dark. He will figure it out. It DOES seem like you meet a lot of his needs, so that is good. You can start letting the OW try to meet them in a good Plan B.

Well, I wasn't sure just what ENs I was meeting other than DS. I don't see how I could have been since we haven't spent much time together. We used to talk every evening, so maybe conversation. I've tried to do more admiration too. We'll see what happens over the next few days....

Believer,

You were right. Cake eating. I sent the letter as Jennifer suggested, but no reply. Today was the deadline, so I sent my 2nd Plan B letter. This time I won't botch it.

Also, you were right about one thing - money. He took a large sum of money out today, now I'm going to have bounced checks. I should have listened to you before, but I thought that he wouldn't do something like that. Now I need to go for sure on Monday and file a LSA. I talked with the attornery before, and decided at the last minute not to do it, now I wish that I had. I was still sure that we would reconcile. I could kick myself. I was so sure that I knew him....

So sorry, knitgirl. I never thought mine would do that either, but he did.

Also watch your important papers. It's funny, my sister is an attorney, and she warned me to move my important papers out of the home. She told me that is the first thing some spouses go for. Like an idiot, I didn't think he would do anything like that. Occasionally I would check the file box, and it was still there. But one day I got a huge shock. I needed papers for something, and went to look. You guessed it - EVERYTHING inside the files was gone - my birth certificate, marriage papers, my social security card, pink slips on the vehicles, house papers, EVERYTHING. The rat had sneaked in and took them all.

Knitgirl-- so sorry that it didn't go as well as you had hoped it would. Im sure seeig the OW's number on that cell felt like a dagger to your heart.

File the LSA so you can protect yourself financially. He's already started the money game. Contact Jennifer with this new info so she can help you along with the rest of your plan.

Really-- this totally bites. Just keep reminding yourself about this on those days you start questioning your plan B, ok?

Thanks Mojo and Believer,

What was he going to do with your papers Believer?? I had better watch that too.

Of course I got an email today telling me he loves me more than anything, and that he had to take money because I won't talk to him, blah blah. He took 4 times more than he needed which is causing my checks to bounce and it's my fault. I'm shutting down OP's money machine on Monday.

Mojo, yea, your heart sinks everytime even though you expect it. You can always tell by their actions what's up. That in a hurry, sneaky manner that they have.

I don't know girls, maybe it's just the mood of the week, but I might be done here. I'm sick of this crappola and I don't know if I want to be M to someone who is "addicted" to another woman for life. I want someone who is addicted to me!!

Protect your money.

My ex didn't really WANT the papers for anything. He just didn't want ME to have them. It caused some problems and hassles for me. Then when I was working on divorce, had to get the court to order they be returned, and that took time. It was just something they do.

I'm sure yours will snap out of it, it is just the damage they do in the meantime. I finally just got sick and tired of it. I think it helps to get a bit detached. Live your life well, and make it satisfying. Put hubby on the back burner, and don't depend on him to do anything. That way, if he does something nice, it is a pleasant surprise.

I would take my time answering his email. Be busy enjoying life. It is like they can sense that you are putting everything on hold for them, and then they feel free to continue the affair.

Actually, I hadn't planned on answering the email, but I may have to in order to get bills paid. But, I'll keep contact short and to the point. Remember, I am in Plan B now! I just don't have an intermediary. No one wants to get in the middle if you know what I mean. they all think I should D him.

I don't know if he will snap out of it or not. She's there, single, and waiting. She's needy and thinks he is a money machine, so she's latching on. I honestly don't know if I can wait this out because I'm just fed up. One thing that I know about him is that he hates change, so I may accelerate all of this just to throw him off balance a little.

Try to think of what life will be like for him if he were to get a divorce, and let those things happen. His little wife would NOT be keeping the home fires burning, and waiting for his return. Give him a taste of that.

It sounds like you have been a good wife. He would just like to have his OW too. So stop doing the wifely things, and put your effort toward making a good life for you.

Amen Believer!! That's exactly my plan my friend. The only EN I'm providing is DS, so that's a gonner.

I'm in "me" mode now. I know that it's probably just the mood of the week, and next week I'll fall apart, but I'm going to sieze every upswing and ride it for all it's worth.

And yes, I've been thinking of what his life will be like with her, and he'll be working the rest of it. She's going to take him to the cleaners (unfortunately on my 401K) but I'll have my half and will invest it wisely so that it grows (providing the market doesn't bottom out again). Maybe time to switch to safer investments huh....

Your mood will go up and down. That is normal. I mostly wanted to save my marriage for the first 3 years, but my WH just did too much damage.

I doubt that your husband will stay with the OW. That would be most unusual. The chances are very much in your favor that he will be back with you.

That is why you need to protect your finances. I'm sure she will get whatever she can from him.

I'm doing good. WH has called 5 times in last hour and I will not answer. DD25 called to say that he wants me to come to where he is now, then go on that international trip with him. I said that I will not talk about it until conditions are met.

Some days I'm just not sure that I want it anymore. I guess it's part of that mood of the week thing that I have going on here. Who knows what next week will bring....

Good job. Don't answer the phone. Go out with a friend, go on a walk, post here, do something to entertain yourself. Stay dark.

Believer,

Thanks so much for the encouragement and support. He called again but I'm not answering. He actually hates when I do that, so he is probably pretty po'd but that's OK.

Let him get PO'd. See he needs his Knitgirl fix. Don't give it to him. It is really essential to go very dark. Just think of it as helping the OW everytime you talk to him. Do something to keep busy. Cleaning the toilets works.

OK, so today I get an email following a voice mail that he left last night.

"I told you last night that you need to call me. I think that is the least that you could do if you really want to be with me. YOU NEED TO STOP THINKING OF ME AS SOME TEXT BOOK BECAUSE NO ONE CAN TELL ME HOW I FEEL ABOUT YOU
AND HOW MUCH I LOVE YOU.I LOVE YOU AND THATS THE WAY IT IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE AND I WANT TO GROW VERY OLD WITH YOU. SO YOU NEED TO CALL ME. LOVE YOU FOREVER WITH ALL MY HEART"

He's referring to SAA which he hasn't read, but I've told him about it. My conditions were that he call the OP in front of me (she lives in another state) and tell her it's over. So far he refuses to do it. I am doing the right thing, am I not??? I'm getting confused, so someone please weigh in here for me.

Man. All caps? HOW ANNOYING.

You're doing the right thing. Stay strong. You're doing very well. I like your chances.

SD,
Yes, part all caps anyway. Like screaming at me. I know he's frustrated because I will not respond. I guess this means that I have some chance, but I sure hope that I'm handling this the right way.

Be confident that you are.

If you can't be, think about the alternatives. Would you want to live that way?

Knitgirl -

What he is saying is BABBLE, BABBLE, BABBLE, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. Ignore it.

He knows what he needs to do.

My WH tried to move back into our home, and still had a love nest with the OW. He told me the same BABBLE - that he loved me and if I loved him and wanted the marriage to work, I needed to accept the OW.

You really need to block his email. Even the fact that you are only reading it is messing with your head. You need to get into a position where you don't hear from him, and he doesn't hear from you UNTIL the OW is out of the picture forever.

Knitgirl,

I second and third what guy smiley(sd) and believer are telling you. ACTIONS (notice the caps) are what you need. It's just a lot of fluff when their talkin'.

I followed Plan B to a tee this last time out, and PWC made the hard decisions, without coaxing from me. He's going to attempt to draw you back into the web, where you are immobilized. Block those mails. Don't listen, LOOK, if he's not acting right, stay away, because you will just get more of the same. HE IS TEXTBOOK...

Thanks all. Well, here is today's news - he told DD25 that he will do what I ask. I don't have an intermediary, so he told her. How do we know when they are serious about it? Is he saying this just so I will talk to him?

Can someone who went through this tell me how to know if he is serious or not???

Might be serious, might not. If he is interested in recovering the marriage, he will unload the OW. If I were you, I would stay dark. You DID put the conditions of recovery in the Plan B letter, right?