I have a question I'm hoping someone with experience will help with. I have a friend (seriously, I know this sounds cliche, but this is not about my own situation)
who had an affair, then ended it. I did not know about the affair until it was a thing of the past. She and OM have been in NC for over a year. She has considered confessing to hubby, but he has a violent temper when provoked. He would probably kill the OM, literally, and possibly the WW. When she asked my advice, I was hesitant to advise the usual full disclosure, for fear of what could come of it. Some of you may say she deserves to die for betraying him, I'm just asking.
How do the Harleys say this should be handled? Does WW need to take the police with her when she confesses, or does she need to save her confession for God, and possibly find someone such as pastor to hold her accountable for NC forever?
If you have questions about more details, feel free to ask. I know both the WW, the BS and the OM, so I may can shed more light to help you figure out the situation.
Also, if there are articles addressing this, please point me in the right direction.
Thanks in advance for your help.

Dr. Harley would recommend telling him in the presence of a counselor or a police officer. I will look around for the article. But I would suggest that she was not very afraid of his "violence" when she had the affair.

Does the OM's wife, if any, also know?

ok, here it is. He advices that she LEAVE her husband if he is "violent" and THEN tell him. But, the H MUST be told. This is information about his life about which he has a RIGHT to know. It would be cruel and manipulative to continue to lie to him:

Four Rules to Guide
Marital Recovery After an Affair

To help you totally separate from your lover, and avoid the temptation to see him when you crave him the most, I suggest the following extraordinary precautions:

1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage.

Besides, dishonesty does not prevent violence in marriage, it encourages it. If your honesty brings out violence in your husband, your dishonesty would enrage him even more, once he discovers that you've lied to him.

If you think your husband may divorce you or become violent when you are honest with him, I encourage you to be honest anyway, before you begin your plan for reconciliation. If he cannot accept the truth, no plan of reconciliation will work.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Well, I don't have advice about "HOW" to tell. But I'm definitely a proponent for coming clean. My reasons are many, but mainly:

1. He deserves to know the truth so he can make informed decisions about his marriage and life. To withhold the truth is incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and arrogant.

2. He needs to know so he can get tested for life threatening STDs that can ly dormant with no symptoms.

Yes, OMW knows, and is terrified for WW's BH to find out, for fear he will kill OM (her hubby)
Of course you're right that WW was very foolish to take this risk to begin with. As most WS, by the time it had progressed from a friendship into a PA, they just felt sure they could play it smart enough to avoid detection.

Do you know for a FACT he is "violent" or is this something that your friend has told you? The reason I ask is because this is a very common lie told by wayward WIVES to protect their affair. Rarely is it true.

Has he been arrested for beating her up?

OK, since it has been over a year with no contact, would you somehow warn the OM? Would maybe a mediator contact OM or OMW to let them know to expect a visit from an enraged husband? Naturally, WW should not call OM, but surely someone should, so they will at least have a chance to protect the children in the home? What do you think?
You may think this is being overly dramatic, but if you knew the BH, you would understand why I am asking!

Well, they were willing to take the chance. Having a violent spouse still does not entitle one to lie to said violent spouse. She needs to leave him if he is that violent and then tell him in a public place. He has a right to know.

Yes, I know for a fact he has been violent. He has never been violent towards a woman as far as I know though. He is far more likely to harm or kill the OM. He has indeed been arrested for assualt against someone who had not treated his family well. He is very territorial towards his wife, children and home.

setfree, I would also suggest that hiding it from their victim, her H, is ENABLING them and protecting them from the consequences of their own choices. They KNEW he was "violent" when he did this. They are the ones who made this dreadful, stupid choice.

Did the OM know this before he decided to get it on with a married woman?

I don't think so! As I said, I was not privy to the details until after the fact, but from what I know, no I do not believe OM knew BH well enough to know that part of his past, and I'm guessing that WW didn't mention it to OM in the throes of passion, for fear of throwing a damper on things. Foolish and selfish, no doubt! I know she is doing all she can do to make it up to BH, and the OM and OMW are working through their troubles with MC. Part of me wants to suggest that she come clean, the other part wants to not think of seeing a murder and subsequent imprisonment.

Thanks for finding the article for me!

Well, I would suggest that your friend has NOT made it up to her H at all. She committed adultery and continues to lie to him about to this day.Lying is not making up for anything. She is defrauding him. She compounds the crime every day that she does not tell him the truth about his own life.

I don't believe for a minute there will be a murder. Neither did your friend when she decided to have an affair and she knows him BEST.

Even so, potential "violence" is no excuse to lie to someone and keep them tricked into staying in a marriage against his will. This man has a right to know the truth. And there is no excuse to not tell him.

setfree, she should follow DR HARLEY'S advice on this. He is a trained psychologist with 35 years experience.

p.s. the OM should just continue hiding out as he has been for the past year. If he is too scared he might want to take his wife with him as protection. Is this a little fella who is easily scared?

I'm not sure size really matters since guns and other weapons are such equalizers.

If you're really worried about a murder then, yes, someone else should warn this family so they can take the appropriate precautions. I think the BW should probably be the one who is told and she should make the appropriate notifications - perhaps contact an attorney to see what her options are should she need to act quickly. (She doesn't need to act in advance.. just be prepared and know the steps if necessary. Think of it like making an escape plan or a fire drill.)

Obviously, it's pretty impossible to stop a ~really~ determined assassin.

Tell your friend to follow Harley's advice:

1.) establish safety first and keep it as priority one at all times.

2.) Tell the truth.

Your friend might be pleasantly surprised at what happens but there is nothing wrong with being prepared.

Mys

(slight threadjack)

P.S. Melody, just as a thought and with the usual disclaimer that I am not asking or telling you how to post I want to offer you some feedback about this statement I've seen you make a few times.


To me, this implies that affairs could be prevented if men or women could just scare their spouses into being too afraid to stray. I'm haven't seen any studies that directly correlate domestic violence into lowering affair rates among those who are afraid of violence -- but it doesn't seem consistent with the data I have seen which suggests that marriages with troubles (affairs, domestic violence, etc) seem to have more of a tendency to have a combination of factors rather than just one. That suggests that the actual reality is the opposite - marriages with DV are more likely to also experience infidelity (though it offers no information about which spouse is more likely to be the offender). Even Dr. Harley's advice about honesty being prevented by threat of violence leading to "very little hope" for the marriage tends to support the assertion that "threats of violence" won't keep a spouse from straying.

Anyway, I wasn't sure if you were aware that your words were taken that way by one or possibly some (or even if you care). But, if you do, it certainly doesn't seem consistent with MB principles to try to affair proof your marriage by convincing a spouse that you'll do serious violence if s/he doesn't conform to your expectations about fidelity or anything else.

Once again, this is just feedback. Although if you have found the correlation, I'd love to see it.

(end of threadjack)

Once again, the take home message is:

1.) Safety first and foremost.

2.) Honesty.

Mys

My opinion is based on the premise that there is an extreme risk that the BH will indeed attempt to harm or kill the OM and perhaps the WW.

The WW can do nothing to control what her BH does and should have thought of this before cheating on him, but she CAN do things to mitigate the risk to human life, her marriage, and her children.

1. I agree WH needs to be told.
2. Steps must be taken to ensure everyone's safety. This is paramount! If the BH does this, he will not only harm the OM, perhaps his WW, but also himself and their children. One cannot parent or have a successful marriage from prison (or the cemetary if things go the other way via OM fighting back or police involvement).
3. The aforementioned counselor and perhaps police presence when he is told is a good idea. Also, I would consult with an attorney for both the separation (VERY good idea if this is true), and to explain the situation and get advice.
4. Someone needs to make sure the OMW knows that the BH is being told, as long as NC is not broken in doing so. She has a right to know of potential consequences to her life as a result of her WH's actions.
5. WW should get some IC ASAP to discuss this!
6. Perhaps WW can come up with some kind of "reparation" for her BH that will replace his desire to do violence. In other words, when told, tell him that she knows his instincts are to do so, but tell him that she doesn't want to see him (BH) hurt and offer to do something that will satisfy his need to defend his honor. She can get creative with this, but he should call the shots on it.
7. Document the concern in detail with the authorities, include everyone's names, his history of violence, etc. Make sure he knows that the authorities already have all the details and are keeping an eye on things.

These are just my thoughts from a brain dump, but for sure, professional help is needed here, both from counseling and the legal side of things.

I suspect the "violent husband" story is a classic wayward wife concoction and that the WW has no intention of seperating from him. If he were so "violent" she would have already been seperated or she would be asking about seperating due to his "violence." If she were worried about him being "violent" she wouldn't have had the affair in the first place. But hey, it sure is a great excuse to not tell your victim and avoid the consequences!

Thanks, Mel.

I took it to a different thread.

Mys

I don't know, mys, I have not seen any studies that indicate that domestic violence leads to affairs, have you? It sort of seems like the last thing one would do if they were truly afraid of their spouse.

But I don't think we need a study to have common sense. And common sense dictates that if one is so afraid of their spouse's "violent" temper, that they would be afraid of inciting said temper by having an affair.

Strangely though, in these cases, the wayward wife is only scared of the "violent husband" finding out, but not scared of committing adultery.

And most often we find out the real reason is because the wayward wife is LYING about the "violent husband" in order to recruit and scare others into protecting her secret.

Even so, I would suggest that the WW follow Harley's advice and seperate from her "violent" husband and then tell him in a public place. The man has a right to know.

Are you referring to this particular story? I already mentioned that BH has been arrested for assault in the past. He has also assaulted at least one additional person that I know of, who did not report him. So in this case, this is not something pulled out of thin air by a wayward.This guy has many good qualities, but has a violent temper.

BTW, I've actually been acquainted (although not close friends) with many people from abusive marriages who cheat, so I don't agree that people who are afraid of their spouse don't cheat. Sure that's stupid, but waywards aren't exactly famous for making wise choices.
In fact, wasn't it on this very site that I read the statistic, that the #1 defense excuse listed in the case of spousal murder, was for an affair? Or was that non another site?

Anyhow, I've no doubt that this case holds risk for violence. I wanted Harleys' advice for disclosure(thanks for that article!) but also I wanted their advice on how to handle the situation with OM and his family.

If anyone knows of a similar case in which advice is given for protecting OM, please let me know. I've been trying to do a search. He may deserve getting the crap beat out of him, but being he is caretaker for his children and disabled wife, his wife would sure like him to lead a long healthy life!

She needs to find a way to safegaurd herself and her children from her husband's violence. And she needs to tell him.

As far as OM...I guess if YOU are friends with him as well, then you might tell him that she's telling her husband.

After that, its his problem to defend/take care of himself. SHE should have no contact with OM whatsoever for life...and that includes warning him.

As far as fearing for OM...THAT IS NOT HER CONCERN. ITS NO LONGER HER BUSINESS. SHE GAVE UP THAT RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD THE AFFAIR WITH HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE

So how can she protect herself and her kids from her husband? Does she have a safe place to go for a while? Has she considered asking a women's shelter to take her in short term while he deals with this? Does she have family that can safegaurd her?

She should consider INSISTING that H get treated for rage/anger issues as part of a marriage recovery plan, if he's that dangerous.

But...the truth still needs to be brought out in a safe mannger.

setfree, I hope that you encourage your friend to do the right thing and tell her H the truth. Is there some reason you believe the OM can't protect himself?

Thank you. Yes, I am encouraging her to do the right thing.
Well no, I don't think OM can protect himself. He is indeed a little fella with no weapons. He also has a disabled wife, so she won't be much help!
BH is a big burly guy , plus he has weapons.
This is a mess, and of course they should have worried about this a a long time ago, and NOT gotten involved. I feel extremely bad because I was caught up in some traumatic family events of my own at the time, not to mention traveling alot, and did not see this coming. Friend and OM have neither had an affair before, and I would not have predicted this. But I am a perceptive person, and if I'd been closer by and fully engaged mentally, I would have seen the signs early on and (possibly) have been able to talk sense into her then. In fact, I could probably have scared the crap out of "the little fella" with a few stories, and made him think twice!
But that opportunity is gone now. I know I can't fix this, it's not mine to fix, but I do want to give her good counsel, now that she is open to it.

Does she have access to his weapons? Can she disable them or lock them away some place safe in advance?

Carefully choose who is around when he is told. Absolutely arrange for credible witnesses to testify to any threats he might make and someone who is able to physically intervene should he decide to become violent.

Arrange for her (and children) to have a safe place to go afterwards.

As for the OM and his family, give them time to consult with a legal team to see what and how fast they are able to put protection in place. Does he have any relatives or friends who can help?

Also, there should be NO CONTACT between the two lovers -- the contact should come from the witnesses (you should have more than one) and they should be prepared to testify or whatever they need to do in order to get protection in place.

Also, you should look into resources for the BS to deal with his anger and grief. Have close friends, church clergy (if he's religious) or possibly a counselor if he has one available.

Good luck with this.

Mys

Sounds like good advice, Mys! Thank you all for the much-needed counsel.

You haven't mentioned why this guy assualts people. Are you more worried about the initial anger period (he goes into a rage) or are you worried about long term?

If he has some sort of "rage reaction" then you may look into a '72 hour hold' rule in your area. Most places have the ability to commit someone for 72 hours without a judge's approval if that person is a danger to him/herself or others During that time he would get psychiatric medications and help.

If his reaction is the type that would most likely pass if he's given enough time/space (rather than the planning kind) then that might be something you can consider. Call your local police station and ask what type of affidavits and how many witnesses you need to assert that he is a danger to others.

Mys

My friend and I went on a picnic today and talked, and also I got a chance to show her all your responses. She is very appreciative and also very apprehensive. We shall see if she does the right thing.

It's been a stressful few days and I have a sad update. Long story short, my friend decided to tell her husband. He apparently pondered on it a few days then acted on his feelings. He has been arrested for attempted murder and OM is in the hospital in critical condition. Things are such a mess now; I'm wondering if I should swear off giving advice for a while, in such complicated situations.

Very sorry to hear this update.

Sadly, these are the potential consequences of an affair.

Your friend was RIGHT in telling her H. She'll likely have to deal with the guilt of the whole situation for a while...indirectly, she IS responsible to a degree for what's happened. Had she not had the affair...this wouldn't have happened.

At the same time...she's not responsible for her husband's choices, nor is she responsible for his obvious rage/anger issues. The choice to hurt someone was his alone.

I'd heartily suggest now that she seek counselling to help her deal with all of this.

Interesting...

IF this story is true...then you should know that you did the right thing. Sleep with another man's wife and the consequences could be a disaster. One thing is for sure...the OM will most likely never do that again.

What the BS decided to do with the information is his decision and something he will need to live with. Even though the outcome was "bad" that does not mean that doing what was "right" was "wrong."

Yes I know there are bad consequences to infidelity. But no one can take blame for the violence except the BS, just as no one is to blame for an affair except both WS. Everyone owns their own blame. But I am still sad for all four of these friends, as imperfect as they all are, and MOSTLY for their children. OMW is handicapped and this puts her in a very bad spot. I did not mean to sound as if any of it is my fault, but I have a feeling before it's over with they will blame me some as will their families and mutual friends. I guess I am just venting. Mkeverydaycnt, I am offended that you say IF the story is true; I do not have the time or energy for writing fiction. I could question your story or anyone else's on here, but why would I? If this is a place for sharing stories and asking advice and grieving when things go wrong, then that's what we all do. Life is not an algebra textbook with 100% formulas for how things turn out, that's one thing I've learned for certain. I'm sorry you felt the need to dig at me when I have just spent days in emotional agony watching two familes self-destruct. When I first posted this story, I was honest about how bad I felt that I was letting my own family situation blind me to the affair to begin with. I still feel I could have helped stop it then, but I didn't and I have to live with that as well.

Setfree - you are so right that the BH OWNS his response to all of this. The fact his wife cheated with the MM does not give him the right to inflict bodily harm on the OM. To me that is like saying it's okay to cheat because your spouse is neglecting you. No one here like's to hear THAT. So how come owning your actions goes out the window when a BH attacks a MM? Suddenly it's "okay" to act on impulse? Hypocrisy at it's finest...

setfree, you did the right thing in telling your friend to tell the truth. It is sad it came to this, but thus is the risk one takes in adultery. It is such a horrendous crime that such violent reactions are not unheard of. It certainly doesn't mean the BH isn't to blame though. Sad for everyone concerned. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

the IF is not for you setfree. It is for the eventual charges that he is guilty of. having worked as a cop, I know that they can throw the book at someone and at a later time things are greatly reduced. Attempted murder carries a very stiff penalty...I would suspect that unless he shot this man, his eventual sentence will be for another crime.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Setfree,

How sad all around. I wonder if she tried to do any of the pre-warning stuff that was suggested and it just didn't work or what.

I hope you can offer what support the families will accept. Does the BW have any family around to help her? Maybe see if you can find some community services that can pitch in?


Hey MEDC,


This caught my eye. What difference does the weapon of choice make? I've been trying to figure it out and I can't quite understand what difference it would make if he used a gun, piece of wood, crowbar, knife, car, hammer, fist, poison, etc. in trying to kill the man.

Is there some legal bias regarding guns as a method of trying to kill someone? (It's not as if people can't or haven't been killed in more imaginative ways.) And, no. I'm not planning on killing anyone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mys

yes there is. there also is a tendency to throw the book at someone...charging aggravated assault when simple assault would more fit the crime...this kind of stuff gives a prosecutor more to bargain with later on.

the bias for guns exist because of the effectiveness of the weapon it can be reasonably assumed that a person using it had full intention of actually killing the victim. for example...as a cop, I could use my baton in many different situations. same goes for my blackjack...BUT when I pulled the trigger on my gun, I had better know that there was probable cause to use deadly force...no shooting to injure someone...it was always to kill. Could I have killed someone with my other weapons...yes....but the gun was reserved to kill.

I'm no police officer, but I'd think that INTENT is much easier to prove if someone takes a weapon to a scene vs. using something on hand...so if he shot OM with a gun he carried with him to the scene, it would be a lot simpler to make the attempted murder charges stick than if he'd tried to run him over in a car...given that the car isn't by nature a weapon.

Make any sense?

Yes, that was one of the things I came up with but then I thought -- given all the apparent lead up to this incident (making the assumption even some of the cautions were followed), that intent would probably be pretty easy to prove. Considering his past record of assaults and, if the BW/OM had contacted legal assistance for their safety and the WW had notified people this was a possibility then I imagine that would probably count somehow.

My other thought was that it is a range weapon. Any other weapon (knife, etc) requires more close contact.

Anyway, I don't want to thread jack with all this morbid analysis, I was just curious.

No matter what happened or happens later, I don't suppose it's really a MB problem. I don't think this is a marriage that is likely to be saved or probably even should be saved. Even if he's cleared of all charges (unless there really is doubt he did it).. he's demonstrated enough of a rage problem that I wouldn't feel confident counseling the WW to do anything but get as far away from this guy as fast as she can. From what Setfree posted, it doesn't sound like he did this in a fit of anger after finding out but, rather, bided his time until he could pull something off. I would think her life is in serious jeopardy should he be out wandering the streets.

I will say that it does bother me a lot. I think telling the truth is the right thing to do but this really conflicts with my value of making the health and well being of people the first priority. Arguably, the affair partners weren't doing that while they were together -- but this level of violence is sickening. I can understand Setfree's emotional devastation about what happened.

Setfree if you feel you are able, I really would like to know if there were any precautions taken and, if so, what. Maybe we can learn from this for the next time this situation crops up.

Mys

Thanks to everyone who has expressed concern. I will try to fill in a few gaps. WW decided a day or two after I spoke with her last about it, to confess to BH. She had been in NC for over a year. OMW has known about it all along. WW asked her brother to be present while she talked to BH. He was angry but controlled. He did not ask a lot of questions but she was still worried. I had advised her to have her brother or pastor warn OM and family; had considered it myself but decided maybe it would be best if another man handled it. For whatever reason, there ended up being no warning; BH stewed on it a few days apparently and this past weekend beat OM almost to death. OM has head trauma, internal injuries and broken bones. Some of the damage was done by hands and kicking (BH is a very large , athletic build with some training in various kinds of fighting.) Also it is believed (not certain) that another object was used, possibly a board or ball bat; not sure if he brought it with him or if it was a weapon of opportunity.
I am wondering if this incident will end the NC in a way. It is possible that with a trial, some of these people will be present in the courtroom at the same time.
BH was quite vocal at the time of the attack that his intent was to kill OM. It was quite a chain of events that ended the attack before he succeeded. Not sure but I am guessing the fact he thought about it for several days will cause him to be treated differently than if for instance he had walked in on them in bed.
As far as I know BH has never been physically violent with WW. He has in the past, at least twice, assaulted someone he perceived to be a threat to his family, not in the sense of an affair (this was WW and OM first affair and very probably last) but in one case someone who had been bullying his children (I remember this case well) and in the other case, if I remember correctly, an ongoing case where someone was harrassing.
That's about it.
Part of me wants to be supportive and the other part wishes to be far away from the whole situation but that may just be selfishiness. I guess I need a lot of wisdom.
Thanks again for listening.

It seems like your best efforts right now would be towards the family (BW) of the OM. You mentioned she is not in good health. If you can scrape up any energy at all for this situation, it seems her and her children are the ones that need it most. (Though not at the expense of your own family, of course. POJA with your wife.)

Mys

Good introspectic and thoughtful post.

IMHO, this is another situation where MB's "one size fits all principles" just doesn't fit. We need to understand that while the MB principles work most of the time, because most A's follow a similar pattern. However, there are certain situations and personality types that are so far outside of the norm, that "cookie cutter" adive can be down right dangerous, as we see here.

In hindsight, this lady should have been advised that:

"Due to the potential for violence, and the unpredictability of individual human behavior, this lady should go to her local Battered Women's Shelter to seek refuge and get advice about the local law enforcement, courts, resources, etc. This is simply a situation where annonymous internet advice is insufficient for the potential seriousness of the situation."

IMHO, this is a situation where simply divorcing, while keeping the potentially dangerous truth hidden, would have been best for all. Instead, this board gave the "STANDARD" advice of "always tell the whole truth", which has now resulted in one man in ICU and another looking at serious jail time.

Also, from my perspective, I'm much more concerned about the BH being in jail. Granted, he didn't have to beat up the OM, but his actions are certainly understandable. I feel little remorse for the OM's condition, and contempt for the WW's continued bad judgment, which has now led directly to a lot of lives being altered, as she caused most of this and now faces only minimal consequences, as she will likely simply divorce the BH and leave the area, while he sits in jail.

I disagree entirely. The details of the A would have most likely come out in the D proceedings (and if not, then afterwards), and the outcome would have possibly been even worse under those circumstances. Frankly, I'm surprised that *anyone* who reads these boards would even *suggest* an approach that relies on hoping to keep the truth hidden, when there are countless examples here to show that the truth almost always comes out, even if it's years after the event.

The issue here IMO is not the honesty, but the steps that should have been taken to protect the people involved during or after disclosure.

And once again, your opinion is ill formed, senseless, and does not line up with that of Dr. Harley. You don't have the credentials to refute him, yet you continue to do so.

Quote

Dr. Harley: Besides, dishonesty does not prevent violence in marriage, it encourages it. If your honesty brings out violence in your husband, your dishonesty would enrage him even more, once he discovers that you've lied to him.

In this case, the OM was beat up because he screwed another man's wife; he is no victim. Yes, the BH was a violent man, but everyone is entitled to the truth. She has a much bigger problem on her hands than just adultery, as we can see. Dishonesty is not the answer. Dishonesty only aggravates the problem.

If we used potential "violence" as an excuse to not tell victims of adultery, then no one would ever be told, because this is a classic wayward wife lie about thier own spouses. [there are 2 such cases on the board as we speak]

On the other hand, there are others here who have committed violence on the OP or the WS, who had absolutely no such history at all. One is a distinguished professional with an excellent reputation. So, violence can happen in any situation, it is a job hazard of adultery. To advocate dishonesty because of potential violence is not the answer, because violence is a potential in EVERY CASE.

The moral of the story is not to start advocating dishonesty, but to encourage people to stop committing adultery, lest they risk outcomes such as this.

Dr. Harley's advice:

1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage.

Besides, dishonesty does not prevent violence in marriage, it encourages it. If your honesty brings out violence in your husband, your dishonesty would enrage him even more, once he discovers that you've lied to him.

If you think your husband may divorce you or become violent when you are honest with him, I encourage you to be honest anyway, before you begin your plan for reconciliation. If he cannot accept the truth, no plan of reconciliation will work.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

MyRev-

The poster WAS advised to suggest that she remove herself to a safe place, and to contact police for protection.

And had she followed the rest of YOUR advice...this still likely would have happened.

The ONLY thing that was missing here was someone giving OM the warning that BH was about to find out...which I'd recommended as well.

But at the end of the day...the advice given was the right advice.

What you've suggested would likely not have prevented the attack either...because the truth has this annoying habit of coming out eventually...and the odds are high that this still would have taken place.

If you don't like "internet advice"...why in the heck are you here?

I see this two ways ...

IF the couple is looking to reconcile, then you would have to go the honesty route, as you simply couldn't rebuild the M without honesty. No Argument Here !!!

HOWEVER, IF there is no hope of reconciliation, which I and others assume is the case here, then I see NO REASON for the truth to come out. If they are headed towards D, then what potential benefit would the "truth" provide?

Also, I disagree that the truth would come out anyway. While that may be the case, it is my belief that many many A's happen, stop on their own, and are NEVER found out by the BS. Obviously, I don't approve of this, but it doesn't make the reality of this deception any less true. IMO, more A's are effectively hidden than are ever disclosed to the BS ... doesn't make it right, just an inconvenient truth.

[quote Frankly, I'm surprised that *anyone* who reads these boards would even *suggest* an approach that relies on hoping to keep the truth hidden, when there are countless examples here to show that the truth almost always comes out, even if it's years after the event.
[/quote]

This is not the first time he has advocated dishonesty to a newcomer. Advocating dishonesty seems to be his MO. Unfortunately, he came to the wrong place for that. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=2&vc=1

Not really. It almost always comes out. But that is beside the point. The point is that there is no reason to NOT tell the BS. The BS, first off, is entitled to the truth. And secondly, in the case of a violent spouse, dishonesty will not HELP the situation, but make it worse.

Dishonesty is never the answer, MyRevelation. Dishonesty is never the solution to adultery.

There was very specific advice given on how to warn the OM's family (through the BW with no contact between the two affair partners).

There was very specific advice about things to tell them about investigating legal options for protection or asking other family members or friends to help out.

The steps didn't happen.

Not telling the truth isn't the answer. Doing full and complete due dilligence in the prevention of harm to ANY others (WW, OM, innocent bystanders or family that might be near by) is warranted in any situation where such violence is anticipated.

As for me, my sympathies lie with the BW and the children. They seem to be the only innocent parties.

Deciding that just because you're angry, it's ok to take someone else's life puts the BH on the same moral ground as the adulterers in my opinion. I hope he goes to jail and learns to behave like a responsible citizen in a society of laws that recognize that violence is not "Justified" because you're having a temper tantrum. (Violence in defense of yourself or others is justified. Violence in defense of the state (civil police or military service, for example)is also justified). Not, mind you, that I think he'll learn that in OUR penal system.. but in a perfect world...

I hope the WW takes a good long look at herself and figures out why she married a man who she understood had this type of rage problem — or why she stayed with him after she recognized that it existed. I hope she learns better coping/relationship skills rather than adultery and lies so that she can pass them on to her children.

I hope the OM recovers and takes a good look at what hardships have infidelity has inflicted upon his wife and children.

I hope the BW finds hope, support, and care from the community.

And, I hope that we, as a board, remember that violence does happen and it's never OK and weave into our advice appropriate measures to ensure that both truth and safety (the two are not mutually exclusive) remain our goal in giving advice. Again, note Dr. Harley's sage advice:


His first order of business is ensuring safety. Next, is giving truth. His conclusion is that both must coexist for any relationship to survive. If they can't, then, as he says, there is simply NO HOPE for that relationship.

We don't give up truth to the threat of violence. We don't accept violence as a "natural reaction" to truth. We insist on having both truth AND safety.

At the end of the day, I don't think it can be any clearer than that.

Mys

Mys,

I think we're basically on the same page. Truth is essential IF the M is going to R.

However, on the flip side, in this case it is unnecessary IF the M has already failed.

I know in a perfect world all would be honesty and light, but as you mentioned, we're in a far from perfect world, and certain factors must be considered as reality.

While it may be noble to proclaim honesty above all else, in cases such as this, the cold hard facts suggests the real "truth" probably lies elsewhere.

No doubt this is a very sad situation, but hardly unforseeable ... this probably would have been a good place to "take it to the grave". Ideals are wonderful, but the reality is one man is in jail and the other in ICU over these "ideals", which doesn't seem "ideal" to me.

MyR, I suspect you have me ignore, since I have annoyed you by refuting your bad advice with Harley quotes, but I will respond anyway.

Dishonesty does not prevent violence, it aggravates it.

The reality is that one man is in jail because he beat up another man for having an affair with his wife. They both perpetrated crimes against the other. That is the tragic consequence of adultery.

The BH still had the right to know about the affair, despite the future of the marriage. Like Dr Harley said, if he can't handle the truth, then reconciliation is impossible anyway. This is information about his life to which he has a right to know.

It would have been much better if the WW would have taken the precautions suggested here, but she didn't. At least she was somewhat prepared since she told him. If she hadn't managed this release of the truth herself, it might have been much worse coming from someone else.

Again, there is no reason advocate dishonesty, MyRevelation. That is not a reasonable stance, nor is it a Marriage Builders position. Dr. Harley clearly addresses this situation:

maybe I am hard hearted to unrepentant WS...but I will say that I cannot muster even an ounce of sympathy for the man laying in the hospital. He should have thought about the possible repercussions before screwing another man's wife.

So, boo-hoo he got his a$$ handed to him. The only ones I am sad for are any children involved.

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the possibility that the WW used the OM to get rid of her H.....while she gets to play the role of victim. I knew of a situation where that was the case....and it worked. One dead, another in jail, and the person who created the scenario and pushed the buttons got what she wanted.

The BW and the Betrayed Children were the true victims, imho.

setfree's friend was advised to have protection for everyone in place before informing her BH. The friend did not do this. Why not?

Imho, the OM was in more danger before the BH was informed simply because the OM would have had no warning and no opportunity to take protective measures if the BH had found out on his own (which odds are he would have at some point).

The WW informing the BH herself gave her the opportunity to have safety measures in place that would have protected everyone.....protected them from one another as well as from themselves.

Yet the WW didn't protect anyone.....except herself, at everyone else's expense including OM's BW, OM's children, and even setfree who feels responsible for not being able to stop the WW from acting selfishly at the very high expense of many others.

setfree, I don't think you are to blame for any of this. You can't make someone act responsibly if that doesn't serve their true (and sometimes hidden) agenda.

Imho, the only chance that OM had to keep himself and his family safe was if the proper safety measures were in place before BH found out and then BH was informed in a safe setting....like with a counselor, with law enforcement present, in an atty's office, etc.

Imho, most of the blood is on the WW's hands since she knew in advance of starting the affair that her H would likely use physical violence against an OM. The WW could have protected OM by not starting an affair with him.....and she could have protected OM after the affair by informing her BH in a manner that protected everyone as much as possible. The WW did neither.

I hope that OM's BW sues the WW on behalf of OM's children so that a judge tells her that she has a LOT of responsibility in this by awarding a large judgment to OM's BW and children.

Take care setfree

Exactly. I can't believe that MyRev is actually suggesting that the WW should have kept mum and hope that news of her A didn't reach her BH by other means. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what would have happened if that prone-to-violence BH had found out about the A via another means: there might be TWO people in hospital now (the WW and the OM), or worse, in the morgue! And does he honestly think that the WW or the OM would have been in any less danger if the BH had found out about the A after D'ing his W?

Honesty, along with provision for safety for the involved parties, is the ONLY option that actually makes sense in this situation. Unfortunately, the WW did one and only partly accomplished the other.

Frankly, I'm appalled that someone who reads here would suggest "conditional honesty" as an option, when there have been many examples that it DOES NOT WORK and MAKES MATTERS WORSE.

IF MR has ML on ignore it's for a REASON. Why FORCE him to read her post when he has made a concious decision that he doesn't WANT to read them????????

Do you EVER have anything other than screeching, judgmental diatribes to contribute? EVER? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Setfree...

I realize that you were upset by the suggestion that your story might not be true...But here's the deal as *I* see it...

-You've been here just over ONE month...

-You are posting a story about "a friend"

-You make predictions about what will happen if the TRUTH comes out...

-Voila! Your prediction comes to fruition

-The story seems to push a PRO AFFAIR, ANTI EXPOSURE, ANTI TRUTH agenda...

I'm sorry, it IS suspect, IMO...You seem like a very nice person in your posts...I'm not saying this to hurt your feelings or make you mad...I'm just telling you what it looks like in this arena...Up to you entirely if you want to defend it...Personally I would appreciate a link to the news story about this...That is what it would take for *ME* to believe this story...

Mrs. W

I have to say that I do share MrsW's suspicions and wondered what brought you here out of the blue, setfree. You have posted no history, rationale for being here. Just posted a few one liners here and there to the threads of others.

This board is a regular target for pro-affair trolls from gloryb, etc and has been for years. We had one lady who trolled here for years under numerous screen names, "questioning" every affair busting tactic and subtly promoting waywardness and defending waywards.

So you can, hopefully, understand why folks might be leery of your sudden arrival given the subject of your very first thread.

That being said, I think the situation, regardless of its veracity, produced a very valuable discussion and the premise that honesty is always the best solution has prevailed. So, even if we were played, it was productive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So, even if we were played, it was productive.
____________________________________________________________

That's what I figured too, ML.

But there's also a very good chance that it is true. I would be interested in setfree's view of my opinion that the WW has the most blood on her hands as she had two ways to protect everyone and chose to do none of it.

I would also be interested to know if the WW typically chooses high drama when other methods could bring about better results.

FCF...you are a real *******...it's like you sit there waiting to snipe at someone...usually Mel or me....

let me ask you princess....what bug do you have up your butt. get it out...get it over with and move on. your act is getting old.

edited by Medc...I am auditioning for a mod position! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Folks, I'm sorry, but its foolish to believe that there is ONLY one option for every situation, regardless of the individuals involved or the circumstances of a specific situation.

HONESTY is a great thing and completely necessary if the parties are attempting to reconcile. However, in some situations, such as this one, it can do more unnecessary harm than potential good. Not every marriage is salvageable ... nor is every person capable of even basic honesty ... its just reality ... and a lot of the time, reality sucks.

wow...very astute observation. so good of you to decide for others what they can handle.

get a life.

Honesty is a commandment and is more than a great thing. It's the way to a clear conscious.


It wasn't the honesty that caused the "unnecessary harm" v. "potential good". It was the dishonesty of the affair.


True. The BH husband in this situation had the freedom (because of the honesty) to either forgive or divorce his WS. Those were his only two moral choices. He chose to cause further harm.


EVERY person is capable of even basic honesty. Some choose to lie.


Especially when the reality is the BS chose to do what he did.

You seem to want to place most of the blame on the BH ... I just can't go there. We may just have an honest difference of opinion, but what this BH did may have not been LEGALLY right, but I can't label it as MORALLY wrong either.

No, you're assuming that's where I'm placing MOST of the blame. I (if I were a judge, which I'm not) would place ALL of the blame on ALL three of them. The WW, the OM and THE BS. They ALL made poor choices.

That's okay if you can't label it morally wrong, but in my book ATTEMPTED MURDER is immoral just the same as ADULTERY is immoral.

Amen PM!!

What is foolish is the belief that it is "honesty" that created this situation. It is not. It was adultery and the violent actions of a raging betrayed spouse in response. So, as usual you start from the wrong premise, which makes all the rest of your argument moot. And silly.

Secondly, you promote the mental illness of moral relativism, which always falls apart upon close examination. I have yet to meet a moral relativist who really believed in moral relativism when it came to his OWN LIFE. I seriously doubt you would want your banker or your WIFE to have loosy goosy morals when managing your account. Rather, I bet you expect your own banker to use moral ABSOLUTES when managing your money.

MR, in the past you have openly admitted that you have problems with clear thinking [those "gray areas"] and I think this is a demonstration of your impediment.

Folks should keep in mind that Dr. Harley, a licensed psychologist with 35 years experience, does not advocate deceit and fraud as does MyRevelation. MR has no credentials to support his case for dishonesty and cannot otherwise support it using reason.

OK, I think I made a mistake starting this thread. My friend now feels I have violated her privacy. Right now I feel a little angry and a lot confused. For those who doubt this situation is real, I wish it were not real, but it is true. The sad thing is I saw it coming from watching BH in action before.
I have seen way too much infidelity and lies and too many bad marriages up close and have opportunity quite often to lend advice to those struggling , and in fact have given Dr Harley's books as gifts more than once. I began reading his work many years ago.
However for some reason it is very difficult to share my OWN heartaches concerning my own husband. I have been reading on this board for a long time and learning a lot of things to help my marriage, before I ever made my first post. Maybe I will get the nerve up to share my story. Suffice it to say I know firsthand the pain of being lied to and used. But I also know firsthand the healing power of God on a heart that has almost given up on life and lost all joy. I do have a desire to help others but right now I will probably bow out of this situation physically and pray for all involved.
Thanks to each of you who took time to offer your help and encouragement.

Setfree,

In Catholicism, Satan is called "The Father of Lies." In the situation you share, revealing the truth was not the cause of the abuse.

In my situation, I called Dr. Harley's radio show to ask what to do when my husband had planned to attend a retirement party where this woman would be and, four months earlier, when I had threatened to call her, he had broken my arm. Dr. Harley told me to call the woman's husband, and I did so. That's how the affair came to light -- because the husband got the truth out of his wife and told me. My husband later told me he felt relief that the lie was out.

Cherishing

OK, here's my response to this very common excuse for not being honest about adultery:

If the BS REALLY is so violent, SO scary, that the WS is too afraid to tell the truth, then why wasn't the WS too afraid to fool around in the first place?

IMHO this common excuse is frankly incredible - as in I don't believe it.