Hey all,
It's been a while since I posted. A link to my original story is in my siggy, but I thought I'd start a second thread for "recovery" -- which doesn't sound like a very apt term, but I digress...

The basics: D-day was 11/16, WS refused to leave OW, despite the fact that our 2nd daughter was born 12/31. He works away from home and OW resides where he's been working the past year. Finally, on 3/9 he called and said, basically, that the fog had lifted and that he would like to come home. On 3/10 he packed up (he had been living with her for about 2 weeks, which led to his fog lifting in my opinion), told her he was leaving, and came home.

The first couple of days were good. He was remorseful, willing to talk about things, apologetic, and looking forward to recovery. He stated, in no uncertain terms, on Tuesday the 11th, that he was DONE talking to her. I knew that was too good to be true. He continued to talk to her every few days, saying that she kept calling him and he had to call her back to tell her not to call him. I pointed out how idiotic that was and that she was guilting him, which he acknowledged.

Things have really been pretty good between us the whole time. But it's now clear to me that he's pretty much been talking to her the whole time. It went from "I'm done talking to her" to "I have to tell her not to call me" to "Let me finish this (relationship)" to "I'm trying to let it die out". Which obviously he's not or he wouldn't still be talking to her.

He finally started leaving his phone unlocked about a week ago and I'd been checking it in the morning to see if he had any calls or texts. Yesterday morning he had one from her, which I read, then deleted. I felt guilty about it, so I asked him if he'd been talking to her and proceeded to tell him about deleting the message. This is when he told me that he's been talking to her every few days (about nothing in particular, work etc = small talk!!! sheesh). Now he's locking his phone again.

I am at my wit's freaking end here. I feel crushed all over again. I know it's the addiction of her that's drawing him back to her, but what the heck am I supposed to be doing here? I feel like I'm losing my mind. This is almost worse than the 4 months I waited for the affair to end.

Should I be Plan A'ing him again and ignore his behavior? Or?

Please help me.

Hi Pix,

It sounds like you let him back in without any kind of boundaries. Am I right? We've just been in recovery for two months ourselves and we talked to Jennifer that first week. She only wanted to worry about and discuss two things to start off our recovery. 1- Undivided attention... you know the 15 hrs. per week, and 2- Extraordinary precautions to sustain NC.
This is what it sounds like is missing in your recovery. First you need to recognize is that these are precautions he is taking, not you. Second... get that phone number changed the sooner the better. If she has your home number and calls there, you might have to get that changed as well. Does she know where he works? If so he needs to come up with a plan so that if she shows up there he doesn't even have to see her. In my FWWs case, one of her coworkers knows our situation and knows what the OM looks like so she keeps an eye out, and walks my W to her car. If she's not around that day my W calls me when she gets to work and when she leaves. The idea being that if he is waiting to talk to her, she just hands him the phone and says "talk to my H". A NC letter is probably a good idea here because she keeps contacting him. Bottom line is every time he talks to her, it put your recovery effort back to the start.

It doesn’t sound like he doing this to hurt you, but he may not understand how much it does hurt. At the same time he's trying not to be a complete jerk with the OW. Talk to him about how it makes you feel when he talks to her (In the Plan A method, no AO or LBs) and discuss a plan of no contact and extraordinary precautions. Most importantly, if you can call Jennifer. She has been amazing with our stitch.

TMTS gave you some really good advice. Seriously, as long as there is contact, you keep going back to ground zero. Hubby needs to understand that there can be NO CONTACT, EVER. If he's not willing to do this, then I would question his commitment to true recovery.

Yes and no. Initially (within the first day), he stated that it was HIS intention not to talk to her again. But then she would contact him and he would feel obligated to return the favor. So it's just snowballed out of control.

I realize that what I should have been doing is asking him EVERY day if he communicated with her. I guess I felt like in doing that, I would be LB'ing him. I get the idea that Dr. Harley feels that's not the case, or rather that it is but it doesn't matter. So that's what I should be doing, correct? --Asking him every day if he's had contact with her? Up until now, he's always been honest with me, so that doesn't seem to be an issue.

He won't agree to having his phone number changed. I've also suggested that he block her phone number, but he shrugged it off. Again, he must feel that he owes her something. I can understand that, but from my perspective it's bull**it.

As far as her physically seeing him, that's not an issue as she lives 5 hours from here. Their only contact is by phone, and that's happening at least every 2nd or 3rd day, I'll assume.

I agree with this, but it doesn't make it any less devastating. Also, he comments how hurt he is by letting his relationship with her go. As much as that hurts, I understand it. But dang, I am so freaking sick of coming in last!

Lastly, he won't fully agree to NC. He did initially, but as I said, he resolve has weakened. What am I to do? I realize that we're not getting anywhere continuing in this pattern, and all it's doing is KILLING me. I'm so sick of hurting. I thought that once he left her, the hurt would leave and the healing would begin, but that's obviously not the case.

Hi Pix,

This mess you're in is about standing up for what you want and need. You've seen the alternative and it's not pretty.

You need to be clear on one aspect. Extraordinary precautions is something he does, and does willingly. Once you stated what you need to feel good about your M then it's up to him to keep it up. Use a line like... "It really hurts when you talk to her and I would feel much better if you sent a NC letter and would change your cell phone number". If she contacts him, it's his responsibility to call you and tell you right away.

Remember NC must be absolute and forever. If he's not willing to do that then you want to question why he's home and if this is acceptable to you.

Now before any of that, you need to deal with the reality of his withdrawal and the fact that you may be setting yourself up for a false recovery. Is it that he doesn't want to be the bad guy, or is he keeping his options open.

You want to be clear as to what you will and will not accept from him. These are your boundaries (If he wants to call them rules or demands, let him). But at the end of the day, if you do not find enough respect in yourself to enforce these boundaries, there is no way he will respect you enough to do so.

This is my fear, too. But I don't think it's the case. I think he's made his decision -- finally realizing that she's more trouble than she's worth and being with her is not the best choice. HOWEVER, he's weak. WEAK. He's an ADDICT. (See, I've got some Mimi in me. LOL) So, he knows he made the right choice, but he's an addict so he can't stop talking to her.

*I KNOW* what he should and should not be doing, but what can I do when he's the one who has to have the resolve?

I've asked him to do this, on more than one occasion, and he refuses.

I guess this is where I'm at. It's not acceptable. I guess I feared I would drive him away by making "demands" of NC. That was stupid of me.

yea, that.


Yes, you're right. Thank you.

I hope Mimi chimes in on this one, she's been down the false recovery trail and would be able to expand on this from experience.

IMO that's where consequences come into play. Have there been consequences set for his unwillingness to accept your need for NC?
Has trust been discussed? It sounds like he's expecting that you will have the same trust level you had prior to the A, which we both know is not possible right now. He needs to understand this.

Pix, he sounds like a reasonable guy. If you approach the subject by stating how all of this makes you hurt, do you think it would get through to him? This is causing you pain and he needs to know why.

and just what would the consequence be? i guess that's what stops me dead in my tracks -- i feel like i have no control. what are my options for consequences?

yes, we've discussed trust. he knows i don't trust him and understands why, and yet he gets mad at me for not trusting him. and he locks his phone b/c he says he doesn't trust me. but in reality he doesn't trust himself and knows he's given me no reasons to trust him. so basically, his reaction is anger.

i tried this this morning. his response was "what about my pain" (in being separated from her). he's still in selfish mode. however, i'm going to try again. sigh.

Please gather the strength to draw your boundaries and be quite firm here. There is no half-arsing this stuff. If you continue down this path, there is, most likely, a false recovery in your near future.

Don't settle for less. Withdrawal has to occur, one way or another, if this marriage is to succeed, and the only way to that is NC.

You know what the consequence is in this case. You fear that if you ask him to leave that he will never come back. It a legitimate fear to have Pix, but the alternative may be no better. That is a life with a Man that will never respect you. It's not like he is putting any effort in respecting your feelings. He's more concerned about you being empathetic towards him.

If he refuses the NC boundaries the same applies, you tell him to leave and come back when he's ready to make you his one and only, otherwise you will end up sharing him. That might seem ok for now, but will it be 2, 5, 10 years from now and you still feel like your number 2.

Have you talked to the OW? Do you know for sure that she didn't kick him out and the only reason he's home is because he had nowhere else to go? I ask because he doesn’t sound like he wants to be there.

{crying} yep, that's it.

we just spoke about it briefly. all he keeps saying is that he's trying to wrap it up w/ her. that he knows what he's doing is wrong. yet he still won't commit to NC.


yes, he left her. on sunday the 9th he attended her daughter's 16th birthday party and the fog lifted that day. he called me and asked me if he could come home. he said he didn't want to have to wonder if he'd be invited to his girls' 16th birthdays. the next morning, he called her at work and told her that he was leaving. she left a voice mail on my cell phone threatening to break my neck. nice. you see what kind of person he's gotten himself wrapped up with. later that night, she called and apologized for that. whatever.

i'm considering getting a restraining order because of that voice mail. what do you all think? the reason i haven't is because I don't want to piss my husband off. that's stupid though, right?

should i consider calling her? i'm curious what he's telling her but i have a feeling it would just hurt me more.

Is he aware of MB and what you have been learning? If so do you think he would buy into it?

She sounds like she could get violent. As far as a restraining order goes, if you fear that she will follow through, then it's probably not a bad idea.

I'd be more worried about your Why’s story. HE says that HE walked out on her, but you have no evidence to tell you that is the case, and you can't trust his word. The problem you have is that you probably can't trust her's either.

Pix be attentive to what he does over the next few weeks. Does he let you know where he goes, and will he get upset if you check up on him?

My concern is that he's telling you one thing yet doing another. For all you know he's trying to reconcile with her. You have no reason to trust him, and he's not giving you anything that would lead you towards regaining that trust.

Your goal here to to get a comitment to NC. If he is unwilling still you need to decide if you can live with that.

now? no. later? maybe. he's very adverse to anything that comes from anyone else. basically, he has a problem with authority. God? Forget about it. my pastor says it's the guilt. i hope that's true. he was raised in a very catholic family, so he has a strong christian background, but he HAD to let that go, otherwise he couldn't justify what he was doing.


she's a hick. plain and simple. even dh admits it. she's had a hard life, i think she knows no other way to react. i don't really think she's a threat, but that doesn't mean a restraining order wouldn't speak to her.

i really do believe this. based on what she said in her voicemail to me, i know he left her. She said, "well, you got what you wanted, he's coming back to you. i hope you're happy; you've ruined his life. if you break his heart, i'll break your neck." nice.


pretty much. he's reluctant to tell me, but he always does when pressed. the times when he doesn't want to tell me is when he's escaping to the bar (he has a drinking problem as well.)

i don't trust him. period. but i do believe him when he TELLS me things. what i don't trust about him are the things he chooses not to tell me. but i know he's doing those things, even when he doesn't tell me.

i agree. i can't live with no NC. we're in the driveway here. he's almost home. either he can or he can't. I've always believed, through these whole thing is that eventually he WILL, but it will be in his time. Much like things happen in God's time. I know I can't MAKE him do anything. Him or him.

Just keep your antenea up OK. Your pastor is hopefully right on the money and he's just dealling with the guilt.

oh, my antenna are always up. LOL

(((Pixie-girl)))

WELCOME BACK......

I missed you. I also wondered about you often. How about you stay with us this time???? and stay on GQII.

Ya I hear ya on all the things you are saying. Heck, I am this close to heading into R and I have a gazillion questions and worries on my plate about it. Anyway, I hope things continue to forge ahead for you. You really do need to define and defend your boundaries....it was the turning point for me...(you can read up on all of that on my thread...actually, I have 2 now...go back to my first one...its the one I was on when you left and goes to the night of March 13, when I confronted WS and BOW together at his place....lol....)....

Anyway, I wish I had more encouraging things to say and write, but my heart is just not in it at the moment....

give that beautiful baby some kisses for me....

not2fun

you did what? LOL

YEPPERS.... I confronted WS and BOW (B word and other woman put together...) at his place. Then I beat the crap out of HIM....quite an event.....remember how ALL this time my WS denied, denied, denied having an affair??? sigh....oh well...you have to read the story to appreciate it...

Anyway, It is beautiful out here and I need to shower and enjoy the rest of my afternoon...

not2fun

Are you going to let Pix know what your new nickname is or shall I?

(where is that dang rolley-eyes icon???????)......

Sugar Ray? LOL

More on my story later...

Yep, that's it....

oh, and that last part is a terrible tease ya know.....

not2fun

okay all, i'm back again. things have been pretty rocky since i was here last. we've had several discussions about his continued communication with her, to which his answer was always "let me handle this in my own way", "let me finish it", etc.

Well, last week was horrible. Starting out with Monday when his phone bill became viewable on the website, I was able to see that he had been communicating with her almost every day since he'd been home. The whole week was pretty much knock down, drag out. Finally late Friday night, everything came to a head when I found a picture of her BOOBS on his phone. Saturday I gave him an ultimatum, we talked and he agreed that he would end it with her once and for all. He tried to bargain, tried to set conditions for me, tried to keep her in his life, etc. But finally he agreed; called her and told her to get lost. Then he talked to her on Sunday and Monday, then Thursday and again yesterday.

Honestly, I'm at a loss. When I put the pressure on him, he admits to everything, agrees that he's wrong, says he wants to change and agrees to let her go. But he still talks to her. I believe he can't help himself (or chooses not to even try). Nevertheless, I see how affairs are addictions. And this is what worries me. He has an addictive personality anyway (re: drinking). I still have hope for the future -- for our future -- but I admit that I'm feeling discouraged and rightly so.

So, I just need to ask him to leave, right? I admit I'm still at the place where I'm afraid to let him go because I'm afraid he'll run right back to her. But I don't seem to have any other options. It makes me so sad that he knows what needs to be done but he won't MAKE himself do it.

Any advice?

Well, he is NEVER going to go NC with her, because he doesn't HAVE to. He can just sit back home with you and continue the affair.

I would scrape up some money and call the Harleys. They may be able to give you a plan.

After so many times of promising NC to you, and continuing to contact her, you will start losing your love for him.

Yes, I see that. At least, now I do. I guess what concerns me is will he EVER be able to let her go?

I think that's a good idea. I'd been putting it off because of the cost, but I should have some money coming in this week and I think I'll do just that.

Yes, I agree. I'm at the point now where I'm so disgusted at his continued lack of concern for my feelings. He's so disrespectful -- always putting his own and her feelings above mine. Then blaming me for having self-esteem issues. Putting just everything on me -- like I'm the one with the problem...

I'm not qualified to tell you what to do.

However, I can address the letting go. You can't control what he does or doesn't do. And obviously he isn't giving her up at this point. He is ADDICTED. And when someone in THEIR ADDICTION, they lose the ability to choose.

He needs to hit rock bottom and you can't cause it or help it along. You can only take care of yourself and set your boundaries. OH MY DID I JUST SAY THAT?

Seriously, let G-d have this and see what miracles he can work out. You can't live in fear, it will destroy you.

Are you able to make it on your own financially?

If you possibly can, call the Harleys and get a plan. You have him home, and hubby apparently realizes what he should do, but is having trouble doing it.

your husband is a liar a bully. He will not stop contacting her until YOU earn his respect by giving him consequences for his actions.

If he contacts her again, tell him to leave and go into a dark plan B. Do you really think your H gives a hoot what the Harley's say.

Kick him out and plan B and I would bet the house that he comes back with his tail between his legs in no time.

Right now, you are acting in a way that is allowing him to sit on the fence.

Get tough...and act.

Well, I don't know how much of the site you've read, but this is where you seem to be, so I will post to you what Dr. Harley says at this stage...


Obviously, the fighting (which I cannot imagine NOT doing when he is being such a jerk) isn't what you need right now. I'm sure the children aren't liking it much either.

Protect yourself and your finances, set up an intermediary and a temporary visitation schedule for the kids (if you cannot agree to one, get a L and have them draw up something legal). Cut him off completely from you, and let them crash and burn!

Have you exposed? To whom and when? Is OW married? Also, where is he emotionally with the children? I ask because if he is pretty far gone in A-land, he may legally agree to very little visitation just to "get out of the fire" so to speak, which you can take advantage of and be much more in control of the time he spends with them. Waywards are sh!tty parents, and the children are much better off with you until he re-gains his sanity!

yep, the addiction is surely rearing it's ugly head. i get that and i guess that's what scares me. i guess i always thought that if he was here then I "had" him and I was one up. But that's not true at all. All he's doing is making me miserable and keeping me from living a good life.

yes and yes. enough said.

no, i'm a sahm. BUT my family will offer support as my parents have a disposable income for the most part, although i hate for it to come to that.

Like I said, I guess that's what I've always thought, too -- re: having him home. But I think now all that's happening is that I'm enabling his behavior and the vaccilation between her and myself. I KNOW he's having trouble separating himself from her and I've been trying to both deal with my own emotions (response to him) and show him how his behavior is affecting me so that it will facilitate change, but it's only making matters worse. He constantly says I'm trying to tell him how to feel -- which isn't true. But he's not making ANY effort here. He's taking taking taking and giving very little. I really think my only course of action is, as others have suggested, to ask him to leave and go into plan b. i have a feeling it won't take long, but i've been avoiding it and i think that's causing more harm than good.

all right mr. straight talker, you're EXACTLY right on all accounts. i know this. now's the time for action.

I have a lawyer (I filed for D right after I found out about the A), so we already have a LSA and a custody arrangement (which is "reasonable" visitation for him, with sole custody for me).


I exposed the day I found out about the A (before I even knew that's what you were supposed to do). OW is not married. She had a live-in boyfriend of 9 years; he left when HE found out about the A (sometime last summer - I didn't find out until November). He never looked back, which I think says a lot about OW.

He's "good" with the kids, but he makes our home unpleasant just by being here. Around here, it tends to be "if DADDY ain't happy, ain't nobody happy", although I'm trying to control MY emotions so that the girls have a secure environment. Truth is, I was handling everything a lot better when he wasn't here. It's the constant lack of respect and concern on his part re: OW that makes things bad. That, and the fact that his means of coping are running off to the bar.

I'm so angry with myself. I guess I thought that because he acknowledged that what he was doing was wrong and then acted on doing the right thing (coming home) that the fog had lifted. but it hasn't. i just got so much fog speak, my head is floating above the clouds. "there was trouble before her" "this isn't about her" "she's not a part of the problem" "she's a friend that I enjoy conversing with" "you hurt me too badly, i don't know if i can re-build". BAH! I *know* this is fog speak. Then why do I let it hurt me so?

Bottom line, I asked him (again) if he was willing to cease contact with her and again I got "let me handle it" (btw, according to him, *I* am being disrespectful to him by not letting him continue to carry on with her. LOL). So, I gave him my plan b letter. I was in the process of writing it out long-hand, but I gave the printed version to him because I wanted him to have it now, before he left for the afternoon. immediatly upon reading it, he'd decided that he would go. (which just shows me how much he really is still in the FOG.) Then he said he was going to think on it and would be back tonight. we'll see...

here's my letter, btw. i had asked for links to plan b letters the other day but didn't get any replies. i hope this serves it's purpose well...

Dearest,

I’m writing this out so that I can get all my thoughts out without interruption.

You say I say the same things over and over again. I guess I do, in some form. That’s probably because I feel like you’re not hearing or understanding me. I tell you how much your behavior hurts me and you don’t seem to make any effort to change it. If you’re not ready to change, I can accept that. But I cannot allow your negative behavior and attitude to continue to affect me on a daily basis.

I believe in you. I believe you know what’s right and that you want to do what’s right. I believe that you are a good person. I believe that you are a good father. I believe that you are a good provider. I believe that you can be a good husband. The problem is I don’t think you believe these things. You can have a good life, xxx. You are entitled to have a good life. The past has no bearing on the future. We will survive this and we will be happier that we thought we could ever be. And we’ll be stronger.

You’re not the only one who’s angry. We’ve both hurt each other. I understand that you’re scared and hesitant about things between us because of that. I’d be stupid if I didn’t admit the same. But I am doing my best at acknowledging the ways I’ve hurt you in the past and trying to change myself and my behavior so that doesn’t happen again. The thing about anger and resentment is that it’s about things that happened in the past. We have to learn to put the past behind us and look forward to the future. There are good things for us yet to come, but we have to be willing to make a fresh start. Acknowledge the way we’ve hurt each other, the pain we’ve caused, and commit to not doing those things again. We have to learn from our mistakes. We have to right the wrongs of our past by moving forward. We can’t forget the past, but at least we’ll be able to say that we knew what we did wrong and then we made up for it. Those wrongs will never be forgotten, but they’ll be forgiven. We have to look forward, and leave the past behind us… The future starts today. Right now. This second.

That’s why this cycle cannot continue. Your behavior re: the other woman in your life is both unfair to me and destructive to our relationship and our children. If you’re truly committed to putting our lives back together, then you need to make the effort to cease contact with her. Period. Bottom line: as long as she’s a part of your life, I’m not. If you can’t commit to ceasing contact with her, then I think it’s best that we be apart for a while. Please don’t confuse this and think I’m telling you that all is lost, because I’m not. I still haven’t given up on you and I will continue to fight for you. For us. For our family. I WILL NOT GIVE UP ON YOU.

I’ve told you previously that I didn’t want you to leave because I was afraid you wouldn’t come back. While that’s true, I can’t allow this to continue. I believe with all my heart that you will come back, that we’ll re-build our relationship and have a happy family. But that can’t continue while she’s a part of your life. You know this, yet you continue to let her taint our efforts at healing. I’m not sure what it’s going to take to get you to realize that the important things in your life reside under this roof. What I do know is that you haven’t truly realized this fact or you would not continue to be in contact with her. She’s bad for you and you know it. Anyone who encourages you to leave your wife and children simply cannot have good intentions.

When you’re really ready to heal our relationship, you’ll know it. And I will, too. If you are ready, let’s do it. If you’re not, then I think we both know what has to happen… Until that time, it’s best that you not live here and we have minimal contact. Of course, you can still speak to DD and get updates about baby-DD. We can arrange visitation at a time that’s convenient for both of us. I hope you understand that this is what’s best for all of us.

I love you, as always and forever,
xxx

OK...that is a pretty good Plan B letter (I would have liked to see you use a little tougher language when speaking of his ADULTEROUS BEHAVIOR) but...let me ask you this...

If you gave him the PBL, which means you are IN PLAN B...then WHY is he coming back tonight? Call him right now and tell him that you meant what you said and that you will not see or speak to him until he ends his AFFAIR. Tell him you need to know (via voice mail/email) when he will be coming by to pick up the things he needs. Then you need to LEAVE while he is there.

Do you have an intermediary to intercept emails/voicemails and to do the visitation pick up/drop off for the children? You need to have a notebook also, for the baby, to pass back and forth between the intermediary to journal when she ate/slept/had meds/etc. This is important especially if she is sick or isn't on a set schedule...which even if she is, (sorry guys) if you are the SAHM, a guy isn't going to be as structured with the baby's schedule, so you will need to know when she ate/slept when she was with him.

If you weren't ready to be this firm, then you maybe should have waited a little longer and received more advice from some of the Plan B experts around here. Doing it halfway just looks like manipulation on your part, and quickly turns into manipulation on HIS part, because he knows you aren't serious. Basically, if you see or have any contact with him at all, he is getting his Pixie "fix," and then also has his freedom to run around unencumbered with the OW. This is NOT a good thing. The point of Plan B is to protect the love you have for him by avoiding all contact completely (removing yourself from the drama) and to let him go, so that he must rely on the OW to meet all of his needs. That puts pressure on the A because most of the time the fantasy bubble is broken pretty quickly, when real life bites them in the [censored].

So, what is the plan now? You need a solid PLAN..it will help you feel strong, in control, and centered. It isn't too late to get your ducks in a row, especially since you already have a lawyer and visitation set up.

he's not. he's already packed up his things and he's left. he kept referencing his reason for leaving as "working on things" and I said "let me be clear. i told you in no uncertain terms that if she was a part of your life, i would not be. this is not about you working on your issues, because in fact i think that's better done with me, your wife. this is about ow. you refuse to cease contact with her and that's why you're leaving."


i don't have an intermediary, no. the truth is, there is no one to serve this purpose. he won't be here locally. he'll leave town to find a job, somewhere else (which leaves the option open that he may return to her area and is the big "what if" I've dealt with all along). even if he were to stick around, he can't take the baby as she's a nursling and him physically having her away from me isn't in the visitation plan.

to be perfectly honest with you, i anticipate him dropping out of site for a while. we separated a few years ago and he went completely dark for a few weeks, which i guess is how many people say that ws' react to plan b. what he did last time was become totally self-absorbed, get drunk a lot, realize the horror of what he's done, how he was wrong, and then beg forgivness. i guess maybe it's too much to expect that and i'm not even hoping for it per se... Anyway, i guess the bottom line is that i don't expect to see him again until he's ready to come back. i could be wrong about that, in which case you'll chew my *ss about it...

I intend to be firm. Emotionally, i'm all used up as far as he's concerned and my love for him is slipping -- i know that's why it's time for plan b. i can't continue to be his whipping post. i'm truly at the point where i'm happy that he's gone because i'm free to be happy and not brought down by him and his actions. wondering if he's talking to OW, etc. i don't care. if he wants to go back to her, fine. as you said, that bubble will burst pretty quickly. in early march i did a "quickie plan b" and it took all of 5 days before he had his stuff packed up and was on his way home.

as far as the plan... visitation. check. money. well, either he'll send money or he won't. i do have a court order and i guess i'll use it if i have to. what else is there?

(((((((Pixie))))))))

It's gotta be a very emotional, rough day for you and I am sorry for that! I guess I misunderstood your last post, and I do apologize.

You are such a strong, amazing woman...it took a lot of guts to do this. I hope you get the result you want, although in a few weeks it may be a different result from the one you wish for today. Sounds like you guys have had your problems through the years. Maybe this time he will really grow up and be the husband and father you deserve. Either way, you will be OK!!

We are all cheering for you! I know the boards are slow on the weekends, so I'll keep checking in to see how you are doing. Prayers coming your way from W2S and me!!

thanks lala.

i don't feel strong. or amazing. i feel defeated. i put everything into making him happy. i always have. and look where that's gotten me. i gave him everything. and what to i get in return? nothing. not a damn thing.

Lord, give me strength.

{{{{{{{{{{{{Pixie}}}}}}}}}}}

Oh Pixie, do I hear your pain today. I'm so sorry and am so supportive of you. Good for you on the Plan B letter.

I can PROMISE you that G-d will give you the strength. You may not feel like it right now, but he will. I have walked through enough of this pain to know that.

One of the most significant G-d shot moments was back in October. I was struggling so bad with myself on what was happening. I truly believe G-d started talking to me in my head and told me that it was NEVER my job to make my H happy. It was MY job to make myself happy. My WH is miserable in his life and completely blames me and our M on that misery. He believes that OW will make him happy. But you know what, that's not her job either.

It's WH job and G-ds. That's their journey to find their own happiness. It sounds like you did the same thing I did, take their journey away from them by trying to fix things and possibly play G-d. But we aren't G-d. We are only helpmates for our H.

Your greatest gift to your WH right now is to let G-d have him and do the work that G-d needs to do, while you concentrate on healing yourself.

Is it easy. FLIP NO... But if you want your M as strongly as I want mine and are willing to go to any lengths, then learn about yourself, learn about how to be the woman G-d always intended and let G-d have your WH. Because I can promise you, G-d is hurting over this more than you CAN EVER IMAGINE.

It is never a good idea to give your "everything". Sometimes it is necessary to sit back and let the other person give something.

Be sure to do a DARK Plan B. Try to keep busy doing things that make you happy.

Believer is right...time to focus on you and begin to heal yourself. One day at a time. Try not to think too far ahead. Do things that occupy your mind-especially when the kids go to bed and you are alone. I know it sounds crazy, but video games are GREAT for this if you have a gaming system. If not, get online and find a free games site. Even something like solitare (which is installed on every computer) would be good.

We are here for you...hold on, Pixie. Today is bad, but tomorrow will be a little better, and then the next day and the next...

And you ARE STRONG and BEAUTIFUL and AMAZING!!!!!!!!

i'm embracing the fact that some things happen for a season. this isn't permanent. i know this is only a stepping stone to the future. something that has to happen in order to move through this horrible time and on to a better life. i've done all i can for him now. i've turned him over to himself and God.

i'm going to continue working on myself. i'm down 15lbs in a month and i had to roll the waistband on my "skinny" jeans today. so there ya go.

off to cuddle with the baby and watch Juno.

thanks everyone for your support.

you are exactly right. it's not my job and i see now that it can't be done no matter how hard i try. it is consoling to me to know that she CAN'T make him happy. i'm 100x the woman she is and she can't even BEGIN to fill my shoes.

Hi Pixie,

I haven't read all of your thread, but what I've read leads me to believe that your sitch was much like mine. I did a few really bad Plan B's, so don't do that. They lose respect for you and will continue to walk all over you. Set your boundary and stick to it.

We're here to support you. I'm usually on all weekend, so shout out if you need someone to chat with...

i've been thinking about the intermediary thing. i see why this is an important aspect to the plan and i realize i didn't give this issue my full attention before.

so, just thinking out loud here... should it be someone local (to me)? in reality, we don't have any mutual friends and my family wants nothing to do with him. i could probably convince one of my aunts to do it if pressed, but i'm not sure how well he would take the idea.

what about a message service? would something like that work?

i welcome any ideas or input. like i said, this is something i hadn't given much though to.

thanks.

so, the phone rings at 7:24 this morning. it's him and i pick up. (I know, don't get too down on me, the ending is good -- i stuck to my guns. keep reading...)

the basics of our conversation:

wh: let me in, i need the debit card. i can't get into my own house because i don't have the key.
me: whatever.

i let him in. he wants to go upstairs and cuddle with the baby. tries to smooze me, tell me he wanted to see my face, asked me if i slept, said that he hadn't either because he was in the cold truck all night, wondered aloud if the reason i hadn't slept was because he was an idiot, etc.

me: has anything changed since last night?
wh: come on, doesn't it mean something that i'm here? why do we have to talk about feelings? you always want to talk about everything.
me: i can't read your mind. i don't know what you're thinking. your actions tell me very little. ... so, has anything changed since last night? do you still intend to be in contact with her?
wh: no, nothing has changed.
me: so, nothing has changed and you came back so you could get money. is that it?
wh: why do you have to be so clinical?
me: i need to understand what's happening. did you talk to her yesterday?
wh: yes.

from here on out, the basics were that he spoke with her and told her a one sided story about what had happened yesterday (which wasn't an angry day at all, as far as our days go -- it was actually quite calm under the circumstances). again, i'm certain that he made me out to be the bad guy, which i'm not sure how that could be but i'm sure he made it happen. so basically, i said that if nothing had changed then he needed to leave. he said that if he left he was never coming back. NEVER. he stressed that. i followed him downstairs and he left. i went up to change the baby and 5 minutes later he was back for the thing he'd apparently come for in the first place: the debit card. he can only get $200 out a day and i figure that's a small price to pay if it will really get him to leave and pull himself together.

so, he leaves with the card, returns about 10 minutes later and throws it on the desk. i started to ask him if she had asked him to come to her last night, but he didn't give me the chance. i'm sure she did, i just wanted to hear his reasoning as to why. i KNOW he doesn't want a life with her. he doesn't want her family. he doesn't want to be a step-dad. he WANTS to me a real man and take care of his own family, but he doesn't believe in himself enough to do that. so he uses her as an escape hatch. sadly, he's put himself in a bit of a tight spot here...

well, as i was saying, i couldn't get a word in because he was rushing back out the door. he said something to the effect of, i'm never coming back here and i muttered an "okay" as i was putting the debit card back in my wallet. and he left. that was about 20 minutes ago.

and strangely, i feel good. i'm sad at the prospect that he might *actually* to go her now, but you know i really don't care. (Okay, i need to hang on to that feeling. LOL) the bottom line is, if she's a part of his life, i can't be. and i won't let him manipulate me into accepting anything less. he told me that a few weeks ago she asked him if they couldn't just go back to the way things used to be -- before i knew about them. how pitiful is that? she's willing to share him. i'm not.

That's not a very dark Plan B, Mrs. Pixie..........

What are you going to do the next time he needs something from the home?

i know. i hope that he sees how serious i am and leave town like he keeps threatening to do.

i'm still not sure what to do about the intermediary thing. i really do feel like we need one, but i'm sure it's something that he won't agree to. he's a control freak like that.

Do you have all of your financial security set up, so that if he DOES leave, you will be okay?

we have an lsa to which he agreed to continue to send the same amount of money per week that he usually does. i remain in control of all the bills, which is to my benefit to make sure they're paid, although i'm sure some here will feel differently. i have a source of income working from home, but it's not enough to survive on. if push comes to shove, my parents will help out, but they don't WANT to do that because it just enables his behavior and gives him a way out.

One thing that Mimi reminded me often was that this really wasn't a competition between me and the OW. People almost ALWAYS affair DOWN. If you could see the OW you would drop at how horribly ugly she is. However, she is still a child of G-d and someone who must hurt very deeply to be able to live with herself and what she has done.

This is TRULY a SPIRITUAL BATTLE between our WW's and G-d. The most important job we have is to step aside, let G-d have them and become the women that G-d has always envisioned for us.

oh, he did affair down, in every way. well, except her boobs. they're quite a bit larger than my own. i guess that's what she has to offer him. i send pics of the girls. she sends pics of her boobs. my retinas are still burning.

Pixie,

If you are in Plan B, you NEED an intermediary. I chose one who not only will stand up to my WH, but will make the judgement on whether I hear what WH has to say or not. My intermediary is there to protect me from WH's poison. If WH has tried to contact me through him, I have NO WAY of knowing and that's ok, it means it wasn't an emergency.

If you want your M back and you are in Plan B, there is NO contact whatsoever. The closet contact I have had with mine was when he showed up at my son's senior night and sat up in the top of the stands and I was on the same side of the field facing him, but NOT ONCE looked at him.

There is NO TALKING, NOTHING. In essence we stop meeting ANY OR ALL EN's that we might have been meeting which gave them the room to cake eat. The purpose of Plan B is to protect you from the drama of the A and to make the OW provide all the EN's. It's probably a good bet she doesn't even know what an EN is and after time won't be able to and life will become one big LB for them. But we don't get to control that.

All we CAN DO, is take care of ourselves, let G-d have our H, and stay DARK. VERY DARK and stop wondering what's going on over on that side of the street, but the HARD FACT REALITY, we simply don't know.

Even if we think we have this amazing conversation with the WH, they are in a fog and spewing junk, so dont' listen. I know, you want to so bad, but protect yourself. It's the best way to survive this and keep the love you have for your H.

Pixie,

Vets, please help me out here, but guessing what he sees in her is a DJ. You are assuming what he is thinking and you can't. You simply don't know and he is an addict and his thinking isn't so clear today.

what's a DJ? explain please? i'm a little foggy myself. LOL

It's a disrespectful judgement.

She is meeting some EN's and it would be good to figure out what they are, so that YOU can meet them.

But then again, I think it is time for Plan B.

You are right Believer.

okay. i guess i still don't understand what you're trying to say. "what he sees in her is a disrepectful judgement." what do you mean?

You can find this on the website at basic concepts.

i have been meeting his needs. i guess it wouldn't hurt to try and figure out what she's been doing though. a couple of weeks ago, when last he agreed to nc, i asked him what i needed to do for him and he himmed and hawed and finally admitted that there was nothing. that i was doing everything. or maybe that i was doing everything he would LET me? hmmm...

That's why what Believer said in finding out what needs OW is meeting would go along way, then you can meet those needs as best as possible up and until Plan B.

But after Plan B you meet NO NEEDS....

okay, so i'm guilty of the DJ. yes, i can see that. i guess i don't see how, in this scenario, to avoid that. infidelity is wrong and i don't see why i shouldn't tell him that.

help me out here. i'm feeling lost today. i'm sorry.

Believer, please correct me if I am wrong here.

DON'T LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAYS, WATCH HIS ACTIONS.

He is an ADDICT, bent on nothing better getting that next FIX. He will LIE as much as he needs to.

And then on top of that he is living in a FOG and speaks a language that is selfish, and down right hurtful.

Watch his actions, read up on EN's and ask the vets here on guidance.

Even after my WH moved out, once Mimi took me under her wings and helped me begin my Plan A, I started seeing how and when I was not only dealing with either my H or WH, but how and when what I was doing was affecting him.

Have you seen this?

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.
Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.
Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.
Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.
Stop lovebusting behaviors.
Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.
Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.
Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.
Offering forgiveness and understanding.

The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.
Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.
Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.
Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.
Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.
Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.
Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

I wasn't implying that saying the affair was wrong was the DJ, just the part about her having bigger B and that's why he was in the A. You DON'T know what he is thinking.... Besides you have to question even if he is thinking.

okay, i'm walking out the door now for some fresh air, so i'll read again when i get back, but i guess what i wanted to clarify was this... you suspected that I was engaging in DJ. Why did you think that? From what did you infer that that's what I was doing? I'm trying to understand this. I get what you're saying and wh says often to me "you can't tell me how to feel" so right there i see that you're right. i'm just wondering how YOU came to that conlusion. know what i mean?

Pixie,

Concerning the intermediary..it is an absolute MUST. I cannot say WHO it should be, but I can tell you that he doesn't have to sign off on it at all. He doesn't get to have a say. You are in control of your life now...he is gone to you...PERIOD! (Mimi actually says she had to think of her H as dead to her)

You can set your email up to forward his communication to your intermediary if he makes a stink. You said he cannot physically take the baby from you because she is nursing--when/how will he see her? I would strongly suggest you take his name OFF of all of your accounts...TOMORROW. Change the locks on your house, although you said he doesn't have a key...

You should also change your home phone number (and your cell if you have one) and provide him only with the phone number of the intermediary.

I may be totally off base here, but I feel like you are still thinking (maybe b/c of last time) that you won't be in Plan B long enough to need to do these things. But, remember that once Plan B is implemented, he does not get to come back until NC can be PROVEN and he has agreed to the MB method of recovery. Hat in hand, willing to do whatever it takes. Anything less is manipulation. When he is really ready, you will know.

Make a list today of all of the ways he can contact you, all of the things you would do if he were gone forever (such as take his name off the accounts). Find an intermediary, print off the Plan B explanation and give it to them. Tell them you are only to know the bare essentials...example...

An email from hubby to intermediary for you:

"This is ridiculous. Why should I have to email some stranger. I am not going to put up with this [censored]. You tell that Pixie that I want my favorite chair! Tell her I am going to be by to pick it up tomorrow and I really don't care if she likes or not, etc..."

Intermediary sends him this:

"What exact time are you going to come by the house to pick up the chair."

He responds with a time...

She passes on to you "Hubby is coming by tomorrow at *time* to pick up his favorite chair."

That's it! None of the other crap should you hear. And she will secure a time so that you know exactly when NOT to be at the house. I would also set up someone to be there while he picks it up so that he doesn't take anything else, and so they can call you when he is gone.

THAT is how dark you need to be. Your email/phone intermediary doesn't even have to be someone who lives by you. Someone (female) from here could do it. The only other person you would have to enlist is someone who will be at the home when he visits the children or whatever (family).

PS--Folks, she has given him the PBL and he has left. That's why I am focused on Plan B!

The only part was when you made the comment about her physical stature and that's why he chose her.

How I came to that conclusion was doing it myself all the time and Mimi patiently telling me so. It's me learning new behavior so that when/if H comes home I will have already been working on this.

Just one more thing in a long line of changes I am making in ME.

I am bound and determined to become a Psalm 31 woman as G-d envisions for me. I want to be in a relationship not because I need it, but because I love to be in one, however, I am going to learn the MB principles and practice them in any relationship I have because I will NOT go through this again.

i don't assume that's why he chose her. it just happens to be a funny (to me) way of comparing what she has to offer him vs. what I do. which i guess is unfair in it's own right. i'm sure she offers him much more than that, but her boobs have been a sore point here since i've seen them more times than i care to admit.

i know this is something i need to work on, so i'm not minimizing that you pointed it out, i just wanted to know how you came to that conclusion. i guess the point that i'm at is how do i convey to him MY beliefs of right vs. wrong without "telling him how to feel" which i don't think i do. moreover, i tell him how his behavior makes ME feel and why. big difference, i think.

Are you reading callmecleo's thread? Mr G gave a good post about how to talk about the affair with no DJ's.

LaLa, i'm digesting what you're saying. you're right, i guess i was prepared to go as dark as i probably need to. i guess in reality, i'm scared of the repercussions of doing what you suggest. he doesn't fight fair.

but, i can't live in fear. i'm off to my parent's for the afternoon so i'll talk with my family and get this plan set in motion.

thanks for your input and patience.

i'll check it out, thanks.

Well, you should be protected completely from the repercussions...that is the point. He doesn't get to call the shots any more, and the more you bend to his will, the longer you will be dragged through this misery. So, you remove his will totally. You should be shielded from him and anything he may say or do. Think of yourself in a protective bubble and then put into place safeguards for any attempts he may make to break that bubble...

"He doesn't fight fair?" Well, there is nothing left to fight about...you take away his power when you take away his ability to reach you in any way.

This does take some planning...it's why I said what I did in my first post to you yesterday. If the safeguards are not in place, then Plan B really cannot be implemented correctly, yanno? And I am not trying to "pick" on you, here...just trying to help you understand what Plan B is about: removing yourself from his drama...TOTALLY; healing yourself to the point where you love yourself again, and where his perception of you is not what defines you...because his perception is severely warped; protecting what love you have left for him should he come crawling back ready to commit completely. The farther you remove yourself, the clearer this will all become.

It's not too late to fix things up and do a proper Plan B. You have endured his vacillating back and forth between you and his HO long enough...it's time for you to take charge and shut the lights out!!

he doesn't do email.

he would see the baby at some sort of in home visitation. obviously, under the circumstances, i would not be present.

i can't take his name off the bank acct without his written consent. (i had taken it off before, but we put him back on recently due to tax returns and his enemployment checks being direct deposited. but what i can do is open a new acct and transfer any money over. that would be easiest.

i changed the locks in november. he doesn't have a key.

still struggling with this one. it just seems so...dirty. i know, obviously my heart's not in this. i'm a fair fighter by nature. lol

yes, yes and yes.

i talked to my mom about the intermediary thing. i think we both agree that someone within the family (even my extended family) would not be a good idea. she suggested that i pursue the idea of finding someone to help with that. if i were to search out someone here, which would be important in my opinion, so we could be sure they understand, how would I go about that? enlisting someone, i mean?

thanks for your help. i appreciate it more than you know.

bumping for advice about an intermediary. i'm still rather in a quandry about how to locate someone to do this unsavory task.

i really need to get this REAL plan b in motion. i just spoke to him (i know, i know). he's changed the password on his cell phone acct so I'll no longer be able to see his phone bills.

he's in her area, it looks like he's trying to find a job near her again. says he'll be home on wednesday for his dentist appt and older dd's graduation on friday. how do i avoid contact with him at graduation?

i've got a call into my atty. i'd like to discuss my plan with him.

A friend, pastor, lawyer, family member?

Someone who is strong enough to stand up against WH from contacting you?

okay, so i spoke to my atty. he recommended that i not change any phone numbers and that i be available to WH in regard to visitation and other issues regarding the children.

I then spoke to my mom and she pointed out that the problem is that we have a LSA and that we've already filed for divorce. I guess I didn't think about it that way; because the courts are involved, he has certain rights. So the question is, what if I stop the divorce proceedings? It seems like a good answer as it would take the courts out of the equation. On the chance that he would turn around and file for divorce, would that put me at a disadvantage? What if he were to file where she lives (a different state)?

Any input would be appreciated.

Do you think it would be helpful to call the Harley's or not?

Whew...lotsa questions!

OK, first of all, your L is correct in saying that you must be available to him for things regarding the children. Which you will be--through someone else. Whomever is your intermediary should be able to contact you immediately and he should always be able to reach her as well...just as he would you. Just because you have an intermediary does not mean you are "keeping him from the children" or whatever. Make sure from now on, you tell your L that a licensed psychologist has advised you not to speak to him directly to prevent him from causing you psychological harm, as he is currently out of the home and pursuing an audulteress life with his affair partner.

For this reason, I STRONGLY advise that you call Steve. He may even be able to write a letter that shows you have counseled with him and that "Plan B" (which will obviously be explained...I doubt he would use the words "Plan B") is in your best interest. If you can show your L and the court that you indeed needed to protect yourself from his ONGOING ABUSE, they should not be able to use it against you in the D.

I wouldn't stop D proceedings, but that's just IMO...because YOU filed, you have more control of the speed at which it travels through the system.

Do not change any phone numbers, but do not answer his calls...can you do this? Would you be able to let it go to VM and then have your intermediary listen to the VM and pass on only the important points about the children, visitation, etc? Really, if there is an LSA and visitation is already arranged--what reason would he need to contact you unless it's an emergency? The fact that he will be doing visitation from your home is a tough one. Make sure you aren't there when he is, but be sure someone else is...

I hope this helps...and I hope some Plan B experts will be along soon to help you out. I would offer to be your intermediary, but I have never done it, nor have I Planned B'd someone (obviously), so I feel totally "unqualified!"

Call the Harleys. They can give you a plan quickly. LOL, I wanted to save money, and ended up losing about $200,000. during the whole deal.

My ex and I DID go to regular marriage counseling, where he lied to the counselor and continued the affair. And the STUPID counselor never confronted him, even though I maintained that there was an affair.

Most states have a residency requirement (they have to live in the county where they are filing for so many months) before one is able to file for a divorce.

As for stopping the divorce proceedings? I did but my circumstances were different. My WH was basically out of commission for awhile because of a terrible car accident. He wasn't going to the courthouse for awhile.

If you did stop the divorce proceedings, it would basically reset the clock from the day he refiles, if he refiles.

It would be most helpful if you called the Harley's. They're the pros at this stuff. Most of us here are here because we've walked through the fire and certainly a lot of us can help and support you, but it's always good to seek the Harley's advice if at all possible.

yes okay, i have a call in to the harley's. thanks

gawd, i am a total plan b drop out. lol i need to start over. are there do overs?

i just feel so defeated. i know i shouldn't. i know hope isn't lost. i'm just so DISGUSTED by him. i tell him to leave because he can't stop hurting me. he says "give me time to get over her. let me work on my issues." issues which have nothing to do with her. all [censored]. what's he do? turn around and run right back to her.

I feel stark raving mad again. someone please talk me through this. i'm so upset. i just want to give up and i know that's not possible. there is no giving up. i just want this to end. i want my life back.

The running back to her will be what ends your love for him. My ex never said he didn't love me. He always said he did, that we were soulmates, blah, blah, blah. He always begged me to give him time, that he didn't know how to end it, but would. That went on for 3 years. In the end, I lost my love for him and divorced him.

Less than 2 weeks later, the affair ended.

Yep, mine still says he loves me. Says the same crap: give me time, let me end it in my own way. yada yada yada.

So I'm guessing it would be unusual for the wayward NOT to immediately run to the OW upon receipt of the plan b letter, right? I'm still really struggling here tonight. I'm so angry at him for being such a slug.

It's my kids I'm fighting for. But they lose either way, you know? I'm so despondent about the way thing are right now. I really just need some positive change here, you know? I guess I have to take that upon myself, because Lord knows he's not doing a damn positive thing in his life.

today is just a no good really bad day and it's all used up. i need a new one.

i took this day really hard. really personally. i know i need not take his actions personally but i do. i'm so sick of living in fear. i shouldn't be fearful of change, of the future... but i am. fearful of what i can't control. fearful that my kids might have to endure if they are put in face to face contact with this whore who has ripped our family apart.

i really thought my saddest days were behind me, but today was it. i feel the loss of control. control i never had.

but i'm sick of being told i'm crazy and wrong and insecure and any number of other things my husband says to bring me down to his level. i don't believe him, but it hurts me that he SAYS them. i just don't want to be hurt anymore.

(((((((((((Pixie)))))))))))))))

You are stronger than you know. Get angry, get firm, get back on your feet and FIGHT! You can do this!! Noone can love your children like you can and chances are he will come back (whether you want him or not). Even if he doesn't...him being in another state will be a big plus for you. You will get custody...he will get very little visitation. Make sure he has to come to you...without the HO.

I know you are scared, I can't imagine all of the things you must be feeling right now. Don't let him hurt you like this. You know that none of the filth he is spewing is true! Time to protect yourself...your children need you. They need a strong, healthy, happy mommy who can stand on her own two feet and say she did her best even in the worst of times. Loving them doesn't cost a thing, Pix! Turn all of your energy and love to them...turn your wayward mess of a husband over to God. You cannot control him...let him go.

Tomorrow is another day...hang on...

sorry for the T/J.....

Lala....you have mail.....n2f

How are you today, Pix...