I'm posting this here (in addition to my thread) in hopes that I might find people willing to discuss how they came to feel such conviction in MB IN THE BEGINNING of their recovery process. I can understand in retrospect, after MB has worked for you, how it is easy to profess the strength of MB, but HOW did you feel at the beginning of the process?

Here are my thoughts:

It's so hard. I feel very much like I have several leaders in front of me and I have to choose which one is the right one and which one is the fake...only I have learned all too well that I can be easily misled (i.e. my H's four year affair).

The leaders all tell me that their path is the right one to follow. Each "leader" has their own position. Each "leader" has their own arguments for why their way is the way. Each "leader" shows me proof of their strength by highlighting the past.

I have my own gut instincts, but I don't fully trust them due to their failure in the past.

So I try to figure out what things make sense to me and my M. What parts fit. What parts are too controlling. What parts could be modified to work for me.

Am I wrong not to blindly follow? And who says that MB is the end-all? I don't mean that disrespectfully, it's just that I am trying to come to a sense of peace with what needs to be done and yet, I find myself wondering if anyone really KNOWS what is the best method for me...that in the end, I may be left to muddle through with advice from here and there.

I agree that I need to speak up for my own needs...but at the same time, I recognize that trust will only be achieved if I am willing to give him the opportunity to prove his trustworthiness. Maybe overnight trips are a bad idea, but how will he earn trust if I don't take the chance and give him trust? And in that process, how do I delineate between things that are too uncomfortable for me to bear and things that are uncomfortable, but bearable if they can allow us to grow our relationship to a stronger point?

In the end, I have to have faith in whatever "leader" I follow. And therein lies the crux of the problem...I cannot seem to find the faith to follow ANY "leader" without reservation.

Look at the track record of the leader for a start.
For ME I knew I had found truth when I found it. It all made sense. And it was very structured which appealed to me.

Your husband has proven he cannot be trusted and needs to earn and build trust.

Did he use work travel to carry on his affair?

Pick up cans if you have to in order to be able to talk to Steve Harley.

Being in a quagmire with conflicting advice, I would recommend going straight to an expert.

I'm not at all familiar with your story, but I can tell you I have seen MB work time and time again, even in apparently hopeless situations. For myself, I initially embraced some of the concepts, but some things seemed a bit extreme, such as changing cell phone #'s and emails after the A, or a job change if needed, after the A is over.

Turns out the devil is in the details, and even a small avenue for the addiction to rekindle is usually enough to make problems. So much better safe than sorry. A few inconveniences, weighed against the pain of a false recovery, is no comparison at all.

He worked nights with OW and they carried on a PA at work (they worked in a sleep lab, just the two of them). He no longer works there (they were both fired...although he says it has nothing to do with SF, I'm not sure).

When he moved to California from Oregon (where she is) to start a business, she flew to Las Vegas once and drove through L.A. once, both times meeting with him for a day or two. After he moved to California, he only saw her three times. Twice when she came down and once when he came up to see me (and saw her also).

So, yes and no. He was never at home with her...except in the beginning when somehow he convinced me that they were just friends and that I should allow her to be my friend too...something that I HATED and was NEVER OK WITH.

Another thought that plays into this...

H is all for recovery. He goes to MC, he has embraced many of the extraordinary precautions that we have discussed, he shows me in all of his actions that he is committed to recovery...he holds his tongue about MB, but he has let it slip a couple of times that he doesn't think it's the best thing. I think he sees it as too constraining. Yes, that makes me wonder what he is afraid of giving up. But it also plays on my desire not to be the "controlling wife" that is seen as so negative.

I guess that this should really go back onto my thread as it relates to me so much. I just feel like I've been lost in the shuffle here and don't get much feedback on my thread anymore.

This is quite a LONG affair - 3 years.

That is even harder to recover from and extrordinary precautions are needed.

Your husband should be trying to give you comfort not stress! I would say the overnights are out! How long have you been in recovery?

See HE needs to be protecting and considering YOU, not trying to project to you that you are insecure and untrusting.

My wife EXPECTED me to keep a close eye on everything she did. She EXPECTED to not have the same freedom she had pre-affair.

Your husband seems to still be operating under a wayward mindset. And for this reason he loves to attack MB. He still doesn't get it IMO.

When you do an appointment with Harley, do you give background information to him before the first appointment? My biggest worry is that the first appointment (which may be the only one we can afford for a month) will be consumed by telling him the story. We are NOT wealthy by any means...we struggle to make ends meet and the fees are tremendous for us. But I feel like maybe I need to talk with someone at least once to hear what he has to say and to see what my H thinks of it (he has only heard what I have read to him).

You aren't even 3 months into recovery and he's like this?

I agree with Neak - CALL Steve Harley!

It is TOTALLY unrealistic for your husband to expect you to be over it after 2 months and for him to be unrestricted. We are 2.5 YEARS into recovery and my wife STILL expects that I will keep tabs on her and she is free to keep tabs on ME. We BOTH protect our boundaries and marriage that way.

You can send him an email before hand. But the reality is he will be more interested in current behaviour than the history.

A truly repentant FWS does not have a problem with extraordinary precautions, any amount of checking, or anything at all that their BS needs to heal.

For a while, AJ would make comments saying, e.g., that I was his "parole officer". Turned out to have been a false recovery.

When we were in true recovery, there were no more snide comments. He willingly accounted to me for everything, and we learned to be accountable to each other.

No wise words, no past experience, but I hear ya. I'm feeling much the same way. What I am doing is trying to educate myself. Reading many books, (How Can I Forgive You? by Janis Arahms Spring, Ph.D is a good one for ME that I'm reading now) along with the Harley's books. There is so much that comes into play-so much that is 'out of character' for my WS, and that causes me to be 'out of character' as well.

My WS is not living with me at the moment and knows (Plan B letter(?)) that I will do whatever it takes to get this marriage back on track, but not while he has the OW in the picture. I saw him for a bit last weekend and he told me that "he's closer than I think." And while inside, I'm jumping up and down, outside I'm thinking that next time he'd like to see me, I will have to make myself not available. (Which will KILL ME because I WANT to see him, but am finding that after seeing him, *I* become 'addicted' to wanting to see him more. I have to be strong) YOU have to be strong-your H is going to have to 'prove himself' all over to you, just like mine is. We're back to square one.

And, you're completely right. This IS hard. I pick up bits and pieces and they keep me going too. For me, it's "he's not the same man-he's not your friend" while he has this OW. And, "if it's going to make HIS life, day, time easier then don't do it!" In my eyes, my H has screwed up big time. I'm not willing to throw away 28 years of a pretty darned good marriage because he got stupid for a few months, but he's going to have to come around and show me, not just talk, but show me that *I* am number one to him, or he can hit the road. Heck, haven't we (meaning you and I) really already been through the worst of it? Betrayal?

One of my 'conditions of getting back with me' is him giving me the passwords to his work email. ANY OTHER time I KNOW he would have had no problem doing that. But now? Hmmm.... He won't do it, and we both know why. (Normally, I couldn't have cared less to have his passwords to his email!) SO, in the meantime, you and I have got to be smart, be cautious, and don't sell yourself short. If nothing else, the next guy in our life will be getting a 'complete' woman.

Honestly, I don't know that certain 'steps' can guarantee the end of an affair and a more deep and meaningful marriage in the end. There is that darned HUMAN FACTOR involved; but I will say that the Harley's books and steps, certainly seem to touch base with me. I gave the WS a set of Harley books too. And again, is it to my advantage to have him know of my 'game plan'??? I'm not sure-so I 'removed' the Plan B pages.... lol. ;-)

Hang in there kiddo.

Marie, I just want to comment that unavailability is not necessarily the route you need to take yet. I don't know your story either, so I will just give you my general .02 that will either fit your sitch or not.

A sprinkle of 180's (you can read up on this - it is pulling back, less availability, etc., but not in Plan B), can sometimes be helpful to keep a WS off-balance ...IF... they are obviously caught by the BS, hook line and sinker.

In my case, FWH was, to the good folks here, so clearly infatuated with me, and excessively possessive, while still not being willing then to give up OW, that a few 180 things were recommended for me.

But if a WS is not firmly on the hook, it can backfire, and thus should be used sparingly, and not in every case.

Lol at you taking out the Plan B pages. "Huh! This book looks brand new, but some vandal defaced it..."

Well, I sure didn't have any real conviction, but what did I have to lose? I was rational enough to understand that my best thinking got me where I was and I could see others here who had fully recovered marriages. So, basically I had nothing to lose.

I knew it wouldn' HURT, and if it didn't work, I could always try something else. And similarly, if it doesn't work for you, just try something else. No harm done.

p.s. the reason I feel a conviction about MB now is because it worked a MIRACLE in my life. Everything Dr Harley said was true. That is the only reason I advocate MB.

I'm in a similar situation with wondering whether or not it's a good idea to let my W go to a place where she used to hang out with OM (in an online game, but with me now), because that game hurts so much. She's trying to show me she can do it "right" and earn back my trust.

As for following, and reservations. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having reservations about what program to follow. My W and I aren't completely sold on the POJA thing, because there seems to be some discrepancies in the material.

Take what seems to work for you, toss out what isn't working. You might find some stuff here at MB that works wonders, and some parts of it that don't. You might find some good ideas from a MC at your church that you can combine with material you get from other reading, or other MCs.

As long as you are repairing your R with your S and growing in love, IMO, the actual program you follow doesn't matter - as long as you both are making the effort to fix the problems that exist and stay committed to each other and the R.

My W found MB right after she admitted the A to me, she jumped onboard and started seeking help here and just about anywhere else she could find people willing to help her.

Unfortunately, she hasn't gotten as much help as she would have liked from these forums - the books are a great help - but there seem to be some people on these forums that just like to jump down the throats of WSs and FWSs and point out everything they did wrong and everything they are still doing wrong without acknowledging the good things, the efforts, or giving advice on how to correct the problems. We have received some good advice here, don't get me wrong. Otherwise, we wouldn't keep coming back!!

He will earn trust by behaving in trustworthy ways that observe good healthy boundaries. Overnight trips will not achieve that. Good boundaries would include STOPPING the behavior that made your marriage vulnerable in the first place. That is just good common sense, something that is not exclusive to Dr. Harley.

In other words, it isn't lack of trust that ruins marriage, but a lack of boundaries. I trust my H BECAUSE he observes good boundaries in our marriage. If he didn't, I would not and should not trust him.

Mommy - Did I get this right? Hubby's business is going to be expanding to more states, the first being OREGON, where the long term OW lives??????????????

Yeah...the first state is Oregon. Not because of the OW, but because it is next to Cali, there is little, if any, competition, and his WHOLE family lives there and several are interested in helping to expand. He would go to Nevada, but one of his biggest rivals is there. And in Oregon, it will be central Oregon (about six hours from where OW lives) not Portland (which is only 45 minutes from her).

The main expansion gig will be him going up there for a week or so at first and training his brother and dad on how to install grass (artificial grass). Then the trips will only be every now and again to check in with them and he may not even need to be the one going, his partner could...they will pretty much be satellites of his main store here in L.A.

Melody...you're right. I don't feel like I have anything to lose, but I am not sure that H will EMBRACE all of the things MB entails. It may be just my perception of his feelings.

The thing is, the last overnighter that he had, I told him that I couldn't feel ok with him going and he said he had to go. I flipped out, scared about what it meant that he would not respect this need and what might happen on the trip. He eventually came up with the solution that we all go (we had no childcare so the kids were the issue with me going alone with him).

But when we talked about this in MC, he reviewed that in his opinion, the first time that he was not willing to meet my "want," I flipped out. He didn't see it as something that HE needed to do to protect me and our M...maybe because he ended the A of his own accord so he doesn't feel the desire to return to it and therefore doesn't see the risk in him traveling alone...maybe because he is ignorant to how much I NEEDED him to protect us.

I don't know if it's fog or just him. I'm frustrated because one moment HE is the one reminding ME that this will take a long time to recover from, and then the next moment he doesn't seem to anticipate the NEED for EPs.

Oh, with her living in Oregon, and it having been a long time affair, him traveling to Oregon for a week alone, would be out of the question for me.

Yeah, it's a HUGE problem for me. I'm ok with the overnight (one night) flying into Redmond (six hour drive from OW) where his dad picks him up, he stays at his dad's house, they work together the next day, his dad takes him to the airport, and he flies home. That's the FIRST trip that we are faced with. But it is sometime this month and I'm still a mess about it.

I want FWH to just KNOW that it is too much and make the choice to protect us (and me) by postponing this or figuring out for himself how I can go with him. But it honestly falls to me to plan the protection. I hear a lot of people here talking about how their WS recognized the need for protection and to some extent he does, but he doesn't DO it for himself, he gives me permission to do it for him. Does that make sense?

Me too!

Personally, I would put a keylogger on the computer, and check his cell phone bill.

He's been having an affair with the OW for FOUR YEARS. He supposedly he ended it on his own 2 and a half months ago.

And now he HAS to expand his business to Oregon, where, coincidentally, the OW lives. And he finds it necessary to spend a week there. And his partner can't go.

There are RED FLAGS all over this situation.

Even if you go along, there are still just as many red flags all over this situation. The puckymeter is sounding loudly.

Have you exposed the affair to his family?

HTM, I don't see this as a matter of him "embracing" MB principles, i see this as a matter of him not agreeing to protect your marriage from affairs. You don't need to frame it as his having to embrace MB principles. Most won't.

But they WILL embrace your BOUNDARIES if they want to stay married. For example, in my marriage, if my H wants to stay married to me he knows he cannot speak to old GFs, etc. Sure, that is a MB principle, but it is a MELODYLANE BOUNDARY that he must abide.

This is more about your boundaries, HTM and what you need as protection from him. If you frame it the way you are: "he won't accept MB," then you are going to run into obstacles.

Set your boundaries and OWN THEM. That way the fight is not over which "program" he likes or doesn't like.


This was a perfect solution.


Hand him a list of what it will take for you to recover. Tell him your boundaries. Tell him what it will take for you to feel safe and to FORGIVE HIM. Surely he wants you to feel safe, no?

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair

entire article here

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

HTM,

I am getting confused here.

On YOUR thread, you said that FWS WANTED you and kids to travel with him. But that YOU wanted to find a different solution. YOU didn't want the inconvenience and expense. YOU thought you should be able to trust him.

I addressed this on your thread.

Now on THIS thread, it sounds more like your FWS is the one who is bucking the idea of you traveling with him.

This is VERY important. I have wondered about whether he is actually a FORMER WS. And I am concerned with your desire to trust him QUICKLY. On your thread, it seems like you want to skip some of the extraordinary precautions, and you have made it sound like that is coming from you NOT him.

Is he completely on board or is he begrudging about the healthy boundaries in a marriage?

I am not sure he has gone through withdrawal from this 4 year affair. And him traveling to her town for ANY amount of town will be a trigger for him and is a BAD idea.

It is time to get REALLY honest about your situation. I sense that the internal struggle you are having has more to do with you knowing what you need and your F?WS not being enthusiastic about providing it. I think your fear about being too controlling is more about your fear that if you clearly state your boundaries and stick to them, he will leave.

Am I wrong, HTM?

You see, I've been in false recovery, and some of what you are dealing with right now with your WS's attitude sounds very familiar.

SS,

I need to consolidate...I meant for this to be more a discussion about "Why MB versus another recovery program" and I have let it lead into MY situation.

I am going to answer you on My thread..."Recovery Between Work, School, and Soccer?"

Sorry for the confusion. I guess I'm a slow learner...I need to just ask EVERYTHING on my thread.

HTM

Well, like my H said, he and I are taking what works for us, and also working with another, local program as well.

I think as long as you focus some serious effort on rebuilding your marriage, and the trust, honesty, and communication within, you're going to be on the right path.


Oh, and keylogger and checking the cell bill. YES! Do that! This is coming from a FWS who is being monitored by both of those things. If he truly wants to rebuild things? He'll be happy for something concrete you can see.

There are other programs out there? I guess that sounds like a naive question, but...I had no idea!

HTM, this thread got kinda got OT, but I can see the validity of your concern. Who's to say any of this "works"? And with all the wonderful, knowledgable, successful marriage counselors out there, why subscribe to the school of thought that lives here?

I, too, have questioned what I'm being advised and/or what I'm doing with the advice, and I think it's completely normal to do so. We've got recovered couples posting here & we've got divorcees. We've got veterans & we've got trolls. People who stick to the plan to a T and people who can't stick to anything to save their (marriage's!) life!

I think it's in our nature to resist change. I spent more time than I'm proud of trying to convince myself and others here who know MUCH better than me that I *liked* the craziness I was living - it'd "worked" for me for 12 yrs - I don't know any different - and now that I do, it can be scary!

Even still, when I'm honest w/myself, it wasn't "working" and we were ALL miserable. I don't know if my marriage will be saved or not, but I do know that for the first time EVER I'm learning about ME. Maybe I will end up divorced (and that scares the CRAP outta me, still!) but if so, I will be so much of a better person, and I will be able to look myself in the eye knowing I did what was RIGHT for my FAMILY. Because throwing in the towel & calling my H home to "get it all back" is more tempting than I think I can bear sometimes...but I just don't want to go back to that place! The nice presentation ain't worth it - for me.

I'm no vet and my story is much too far from resolved. So, I cannot say "YES, do it cuz it works, I know firsthand" and they're not paying me to convince you to do one thing or another. But, I also know that the choices I'm making & what I'm doing is widely received as "odd" so it sure is nice to come here & have support from so many people who have been there. I figure if my H EVER "buys into it", it'll be a long time from now - and that's OK. Today, I'm working on ME.

Julie, H and I are working with a local group called Community Marriage Builders. (www.makeitlast.org) I'm not sure if there are "partner" programs anywhere else, but it's definitely worth checking out. We learned so much last weekend - it was amazing.