I need some advice. I have begged, pleaded, cried, and asked rationally for my husband to get away from his affair partner, with whom he works with. He knows that I crumble every night that he leaves for work (they work midnights, I work during the day, hence the opportunity...) I haven't slept properly in months. He knows what it's doing to me, yet he does nothing about it. All of his supervisors at work know about the affair, and they are fine to let them continue working together, because they didn't do anything on "company time". He thinks that I'm trying to punish him by making him give up something that he loves (his job). I've tried to explain that there is no punishment intended, just some peace for me. He says he wants to work things out, that he loves me, biggest mistake he ever made, etc. and that I need to try to move on, that it's over between them and regardless of whether or not he works with her, if he really wanted to he could still see her (moving is not a possibility right now). Anybody have ideas that would help me make him see that he is choosing his job over his wife and kids? He doesn't see it that way.

No contact means no contact.

Even if it's "over between them" NOW, who's to say they won't hook up one day "by accident"?

tjp,

Been in your shoes. My FWH took a job in another city after a layoff. I was caring for my terminally ill mother, and had my own job here, so I accepted the weird setup.

H found OW at new office. I discovered it, but after the d-day blowup, H was not interested in reconciling. What to do? Showed up in H's city and announced I was staying. H was NOT happy and would not end the A. Threw me out a month later and refused to respond to my calls and letters.

So I showed up unannounced 6 weeks later and asked him to talk to Steve Harley "to help me adjust." He agreed (probably from guilt). Steve explained the "ideal scenario" (in love with his wife) and offered idea of MB weekend. He bit!

After MB weekend, I moved in with him, but he would not leave that job. I know what trying to reconcile with him in bldg with OW every day can do to a BS's soul. Even though we were working through the MB lessons, and he'd ended the physical part of the A, he chose his job over me for another 18 months.

Here's the part that made the difference, I think. During that time, I Plan A's my a$$ off (read about Plan A here). I also continued to tell him over the months (calmly, most times anyway) that being there was killing me. He could see my sadness but was SO afraid to give up that good job. I kept repeating that it was tearing me apart that his job was more important than I was to him.

As he came to see that I was the best bet for his future happiness (with waywards, it's ALWAYS about THEIR "happiness"), he felt worse and worse about the situation. We ultimately moved back home because he fought for and won a work-at-home setup.

So, my advice to you would be to continue to let your H know that the situation is harmful to you, WHILE you show him the best you that you can be. Be the wife he fell in love with all those years ago. To do that you will have to learn about how to meet his emotional needs and eliminate all love busters (read, read, read everthing on this site about it).

Own your power and use the MB plan to win him over. You can do it. I did.

Right Here Waiting

PLAN B..

And from the sounds of your mental state, you might oughta do it soon. Here is what Dr. Harley says about these situations:

Well here's my experience. My wife had an affair with a co-worker. SHe told me that it was over. I even contacted the OM and he told me that he made a terrible mistake, blah, blah, blah.
Like an idiot I believed them.
Soon after, they were assigned to work together even closer, which upset me. I contacted the OM again and he assured me that, it was just business, blah, blah, blah.
Needless to say the affair sparked back up faster and more furious than ever.

What Rock just described is the rule, rather than the exception. His seeing her every day is the equivalent of an alcoholic going to the bar every day and having "business drinks." He stays perpetually triggered and pretty soon he is drunk again.

We have many affairs around here that turned into 5, 10 year affairs because the WS continued to work with the OP.

It clearly is the rule, rather than the exception, that a wayward who continues to work with OP will continue the A.

Where is your H coming from on this? How is he relating to YOU? Is he willing to work with you, or stubbornly continuing to see YOU as the problem?

I think it matters whether the WS WANTS to avoid OP, whether he/she CAN avoid OP at work. Cannot happen if they actually have to work face to face. Other departments or locations, perhaps.

Still, in the end, the WS will HAVE to get far, far away from OP for the BS to feel "safe." And much depends on the fortitude of the BA in the meantime. You have to protect yourself, no matter how you do it. For many, it must be Plan B.

Consider all advice and assess yourself and your situation to see where you need to go.

And I'd strongly advise you to get phone counseling with the Harleys.

tjp, is the OW married? [verified independently] If so, does her H know about the affair?

I think you have to accept that he is oblivous to your feelings and will remain that way until he comes out of the fog. And he won't come out of the fog until he ends contact with the OW. It falls to YOU to protect yourself since he won't. His behavior is actually a threat to your mental health.

I think righttherewaiting made a great suggestion about contacting Steve Harley for counseling if you can afford it.

If it were me, I would explain to my H that his continued contact is so painful to me that I was unable to recover from this affair. You are triggered each and every day he goes off to work. Nor can you ever hope to rebuild trust under these conditions.

I would make it clear that the marriage cannot possibly recover as long as he continues to see the OW and since that is the case, you are not willing to stay in a crippled marriage where there is no hope of recovery. [it that is the case, that is. don't say that if you are willing to stay in such an abusive situation]

Tell him you would be willing to stay in a situation where steps were taken to recover but you know that is impossible as long as he continues contact.

[quote=MelodyLane If it were me, I would explain to my H that his continued contact is so painful to me that I was unable to recover from this affair. You are triggered each and every day he goes off to work. Nor can you ever hope to rebuild trust under these conditions. [/quote]

ML is dead on, tjp. I used almost those exact words. Took a while, but they ultimately got through. My H was already "out of love" with me when he accepted a job in another city. My options were to stay home and leave H and OW alone in Fantasyland, or go to him and fight for the M using Plan A. Your WH is presumably living at home with you, so you can Plan A to the best of your ability while you calmly and firmly make your case that you cannot recover or rebuild trust while he is in contact with OW. Only you can know how long you can work that plan before you have to cut off all contact with him to protect yourself and what love you have left (that would be Plan B).

But tell us, tjp, does your H have to interact with OW at work? Are they separated by location/floor/department?

Also note that Plan A has two components, what we refer to as the "carrot" (you reclaiming all the wonderful ways you had as a newlywed, learning about and meeting your H's emotional needs, and eliminating all the destructive habits--love busters--you developed over the years), and the "stick" (i.e. exposing H's affair to family/friends/his superiors and HR at work).

We can help you with both parts, but best if you read the articles linked to the home page, and Dr. Harley's books His Needs Her Needs, Love Busters and Surviving an Affair (your bookstore, or the MB bookstore link on home page).

Once you've got the basics, a call to the MB counseling center will help you enormously. It's not marriage "counseling." It's coaching, and they will give you a specific game plan. (Steve Harley even helped me word an email and plan conversations with then-WH. Invaluable.) These people KNOW what they're doing. My FWH and I agree we probably wouldn't be married today if we'd not found and followed the program. We most certainly would NOT be in love and happy.

And that's the truth.

Right Here Waiting

Hi tjp and all,

I'm in a similar spot too. I know how hard this is...my situation with my WH is different in that he acknoledges that it isn't fair to me that he still works with OW. He has stated that he'll do pretty much anything to make M work. He is also acting on this now in going to counseling to understand himself, etc.
So I must ask, he states that he doesn't ever see her, that they do work in the same building, but she's not anywhere near him, that he avoids her area completely, that he hasn't had any contact with her for over a year. Okay, so I realize that those are lies and don't believe it. But here's the reality. We can put a plan in place to start him looking for other opportunities, but with the economy like it is, that isn't easy. I am a SAHM, so he's the breadwinner and he's at a pretty high level. So my question is, the OW is single (cheated on her husband and so is divorced-yeah I know real winner). Why should I be forced to move and uproot my family, kids, self? We have our family here, she has NOBODY here! Why shouldn't she be confronted and pressured to get the hell out?!? It just dawned on me. Now in the meantime, we will continue to look for other jobs, but I'm telling you it's not easy right now to find employment. My husband is more than willing to move jobs, he never really was that into his job here anyway...even with that it's not that realistic right now?!? Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but I was reading through and have read so many others, and just want to throw the opposite option on the table. I realize you can't control others, but why not at least ask for this, while working to get WH new job? Has anyone ever tried this?

tjp, I wish you the best and hope that your efforts make your husband realize he can't stay and at least start working to try and find a different job. It's not easy options right now in this economy. Could your husband get a day shift instead of night, so that they wouldn't see each other at least? At least for now?

Thanks for your thread, cause it did make me realize that even if she's just 'around' and not ever seen, it allows for the re-connection at some point and possible reignite the affair....totally get it now.

I'm kind of hard nosed on this topic. I'm assuming that these affairs began in the work place. So, your spouses are continuing to go into the same environment that spawned the affairs to begin with and are expecting you to "trust them" to handle themselves appropriately now? They already had that opportunity once and failed miserably at the task. I have no idea why it is difficult for them to understand how that could put you on edge, but many waywards do have trouble connecting those particular dots.

Punishment to quit a job? Humph!! Ensuring that ALL contact with an affair partner ceases is the first step a wayward takes to end the punishment that has been heaped on the betrayed spouse! Finding a new job isn't a punishment, it is the consequence of choices he made. Don't get sucked into his pity party.

Allemotions, I hear you about the economy, but if the affair resumes and you two end up divorced because of it, what kind of financial impact is that going to have on your family? Can you cut back on extras now or work part time to absorb a pay cut? I agree with you that it isn't fair that he has to leave while she stays, but unfair it the nature of the ugly beast you're dealing with. You can't make the OW do anything (him either for that matter). You can only set your own boundaries and priorities.

If you haven't done so already, read Dr. Harley's article on ending affairs. It addresses why no contact is necessary and why waywards resist it.

I have been doing Plan A for about 2-3 months (with a couple of set-backs). I don't believe that the two of them are still actively involved, but my sanity takes a hit everyday that he goes to work. They are in Law Enforcement. They are not with each other constantly, but the possibility is there everyday for them to go on a call together. He has told me that he avoids her like the plague, but amazingly enough, I was told that very same thing for the entire year he was sleeping with her. You can see how I have doubts. He has told me that he did not like the person he was when he was involved with her, and that he never wants to return to "that" place. I'd love to buy into that one, too.
I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the matter. My own are so confused these days...

I agree with Exodus. The right question is NOT 'what is the financial impact of leaving this job,' but rather 'what is the financial impact of getting a divorce.'

And in many cases it should be 'what is the financial impact of a nervous breakdown AND a divorce?'

No, she left her live-in boyfriend of 14 years for my husband. He does know about the affair, he caught them, and called to let me know about it. But, as I mentioned, they are no longer together.

tjp, this all misses the point by a mile, though. Lets say he works there but never goes out on call with her again. What then do you do about him being TRIGGERED every day when he goes to work and sees her car in the parking lot? Or walking down the hall? Or sees her at his meetings? Working there keeps the OW TOP OF MIND. It is the same as an alcholic going in the bar every day and HAVING A DRINK. The only change is that he calls them "business drinks." Does anyone really imagine that an alcoholic can be transformed into a social drinker? Of course not! The alcoholic ends up drunk before long just like adulterers end up cheating again before long.

And surely you understand that if he did start back up with her, he is not going to tell you, right? You cannot expect the truth from a liar. Adulterers lie. period. Your fears are WELL FOUNDED and RATIONAL. Please heed them.

It is just a matter of time. I wish I could tell you otherwise. I REALLY DO! But I do not know of any marriaqe that ever recovered where the affairees worked together. Not one in 8 years I have been here. But I sure do know of several that turned into 5 and 10 year affairs!! This is why Dr. Harley is ADAMANT that all contact end even if you have to move to another STATE.

Dr. Harley: In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.
here

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

I had a similar situation where my FWH only saw the FOW (also single) on one day a week for only a few minutes in a group setting. He tried to go in later or earlier and made sure he was always with another co-worker. However the FOW made sure that she tried to catch him alone just to "talk".

After 2 months of her doing this and me saying the same things as you, he actually turned her in to HR for sexual harrassment and she ended up quitting.

Is this a possibility for you and your H?

No contact, lifechoice - the viewpoint of a FORMER WW who continued to work with the OM http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659249&fpart=3

Every time I read where a WS is still working with the AP I cringe because I know exactly where things are headed. I know I said this before, but I only worked 6 days a month and after I ended the A, of the 6, we maybe worked together 1 or 2. When I ended the A it brought relief and neither FOM nor I wanted the A any longer, but regardless I was hooked. Just seeing his car in the parking lot, his name on an work email, or anything related to him kept me hooked.

I never knew ahead of time if I was going to be working with him. If I pulled into the parking lot and saw his car I would feel happy and sad at the same time and if his car was not there I would feel relief and sad at the same time.

My therapist told me to journal and after I confessed the stuff in there just makes me shake my head. Now when I read the stuff I did, said, etc it makes me sick to my stomach. I honestly believed I was on my best behavior because we were not crossing any inappropriate lines or so we thought. Now I can "see" exactly what happened and how it fed my addiction to the A. All those "professional" conversations that had bits and pieces of non-professional idle chit chat, facial expressions, body language, the unnecessary walk-by's, the acknowleging everyone but him days, etc where so harmful. And then my poor H would get to hear all about it because I was being open and honest. I have no idea why he didn't leave me because of what I put him through.

In a sec I will add a snippet from my journal and a prime example of why FAP's cannot stay working together. I hadn't seen my FOM in who knows how long. Docp had recently asked for all the details of the A and I was a complete nervous wreck. When I got to work, FOM was there, I was having a really bad day and to top it off was exposed to TB by a patient. The TB deal was the straw that broke the camels back. I had a meltdown in my FOM's office and almost passed out. I asked him if I could sit for a second and that second of sitting lead to a conversation we never should have had.

We talked about Docp's and his W's reaction, how we all were coping, how stupid and weak we were etc, etc. Even sitting here now I remember the feeling I had and KNEW we should not have been having that conversation, but it was making me feel better when I felt like crap. What I didn't realize was I had just had a big dose fed to my addiction and the whole cycle started again.

Here is the snippet from my journal: (I changed names of course)

"It felt good to talk to him and clear a lot of this up. He even mentioned it was nice that we were able to talk and I feel like he meant it, not in an appropriate way, just a friendly way. (Ah, this from the person who has been avoiding talking to me forever) I felt like I was talking to my 'old friend" the way it was for years before we messed everything up. I told Docp about the whole conversation. He was ok with this conversation, but said he wouldn't be really happy if we started talking all the time. duh!!!!!! I just said I understand and didn't plan on talking to him about anything that wasn't work related."

OK, in all reality Docp was NOT OK with the conversation and told me he didn't care if I was going to faint or not I needed to crawl out of his office, not sit and chat with him. But in my happy place I honestly believed because I told Docp about the conversation it really was OK. I was completely delusional and thought because it made me feel so good, it HAD to be OK.

I had all this going on and I rarely saw my FOM, can you just imagine what is going on when people are seeing each other every day?

Anyway back to NC, I'm not sure if I simply missed it before, but it seems lately we have more who are willing to allow the WS to continue working with the AP and have a zillion and one excuses on why it's OK. I'm never surprised when they find out the A is still ongoing though because I could tell them the details of what is going on during the work day when the WS honestly feels they are on their best behavior.

It's not fair for the OW to give her job up when your WH is just as much at fault. She has no BH to worry about.

Your WH does have a spouse to worry about you. He needs to make you feel secure from the OW.

The OW never felt she owed you any thing and I doubt she feels that she owes you now. She is not going to give up a gov. job with health and a good pension just to make you happy.

How ever you WH has to pay a stiff price to give up a good job. But he has to do what he has to do.

Hi Melody and Road,

I understand what you are saying and we are now working toward getting him a new job. I don't know how long this will take, but he is working on it.

Thank you Melody for taking the time to open up and show your emotions at the time and what happened from the W standpoint. I understand now and it's getting clearer. I'm just so pissed that we have to potentially uproot again. I am on my way to joint counseling session and will be bringing this point up again that it is unacceptable and hurtful to me that he is still working there with her in the same building. I know he will understand. So far he's pretty much agreed to all my demands.

The one thing that I will also discuss is that, he needs continued help as I need to see and be reassured that he is/has changed and recognition of his issues (for him I think it's Ego). Otherwise, what's to stop my WH from connecting with yet another woman at the new job. This is reality that I have to deal with now. So we'll see...to be continued.

You might want to read what MelodyLane posted just the other day - on rustyshackelford's thread called HELLO

Hey Tjp,,

I just want to add my 2 cents on this,, My hubby is also a LEO, and his Fow was a dispatcher so I totally get where you are coming from,, yes his supervisers knew about it but like you didn't do anything about it.

For the 1st year of our recovery (if you can call it that) he continued to work with her. It was total he!!! for me evertime he worked nights and I would call him and he didn't answer was he on a call? was he with her?? it sucked..

I did everything you did, I cryed, I begged, I threated and he keep insisting that it was over and I had nothing to worry about.

Now I believe that the PA was over but they where still having a EA.

Finally hubby transferred to another unit where she has no involement and that is when recovery really started.

OK that is my story, IMVHO you can not heal when you know he has contact with her.

Has he looked into changing shifts or finding work w/ another dept. Law Enforcement is a pretty wide open field right now and he should be able to find work anywhere, again just my 2 cents (and probally not worth that LOL)

I wish you all the best, F-26

Hey Faithful,

Another long-time Plan A-er! My H worked in building with OW (different floors, different depts) for 18 months, so I understand when you say it was HE** for you. AND, like me, you continued to tell him in every way you could to show him it wouldn't work for you.

Three questions for you:
1) Why didn't you go to Plan B?
2) What do you think would happen if you had?
3) How did you keep yourself going that year? Why did you not quit?

I think tjp could benefit from your answers.

Right Here Waiting

Hi waiting, ok to answer your questions


1) Why didn't you go to Plan B? Fear mainly, (I had not found MB then and was flying by the seat of my pants)
I was afraid that if I went into what I now know as a plan B or if I gave him and or else he would leave again.

2) What do you think would happen if you had? Again I was afraid of him leaving and me being alone,,, I had totally lost myself in my marriage, my kids, I had to do alot of work one me.

3) How did you keep yourself going that year? Prayer, prayer, prayer! did I mention prayer? My God, my Church family, my kids especially my daughter they kept me going.

Why did you not quit?Oh mainly because in spite of all he had done I stilled loved my husband,, this person he had become wasn't the man I grew up with and built a life with (We've been together since I was 17), in so many ways I could see that he was hurting, lost and just as confused as I was, I couldn't give up on him. Kill him maybe, but not give up on him LOL

Faithful26,
Thank you SO much. I'm so happy to hear from another LEO wife, who has seen the lack of morals and ethics that police work causes. It makes me ill that his Sargent and Luitenent both see no problem with keeping the two of them on the same shift. They said it was a personal issue, not a professional one. Nice.
He has no intention of being moved from his shift. He has told me that shifts don't stay together forever, and that I need to wait it out until the shift gets broken up. To me, another day of him going to work with her might as well be another year. Their EA lasted for 4 months, with the PA lasting for another 8 months after that. This was a full blown relationship, that went on for a year, and I'm supposed to believe that in one day he's over her, and I have nothing to worry about. I beg to differ. I'm thisclose to being done. I don't want to leave, but I feel like he's leaving me no choice. I have kids to think about, and my present emotional state is not helpful.

YOU need to "wait?" YOU NEED TO WAIT???!!!

This level of callousness tells me he is NOT done with his affair, regardless of what he's telling you. This is NOT a man who intends to put his marriage back together. This is a man who has NO remorse for (or understanding of) what he's done to you, a man who is still neck deep in selfishness. He is dangerous.

Had I heard stuff like this, I would never have waited for my H to figure a way out of the building he and OW worked in. My H committed to the MB course work, stuck with me through the hard stuff, and did such a good job of avoiding OW at work that she was reduced to leaving a note under his windshield, begging him to talk to her. I KNOW this because I was the one who found it!

Strongly suggest you call the MB counseling center and talk to Steve Harley or Jennifer Harley Chalmers.

AND, read up on Plan B. Looks like you're gonna need it. But talk to Steve or Jennifer first.

I am so sorry.

RHW

tjp,,, your what less then 6 months from d-day right??

Is your hubby doing anything to show you he is working to save your marriage?

What has he done to "prove" to you that he has ended things with this woman?

Is he being transparent with you as far as cell phone,, email etc?

If shifts get changed so often why would it be a big deal for him to request a change now???

I think it is pretty irresponsible for his shift commander to keep them on the same shift,, not only for your sake but for the shift, this can only cause conflict.

Have you spoken to his Sgt., Lt, Capt. about what's going on??

Telling you that you need to wait is a huge red flag for me perhaps you could try the 180 plan before going into a plan B,, from what I understand about plan B's you really have to be ready to go dark and be willing/able to stay dark to be effective.

I agree with waiting try to get counciling, and please remember you need to take of you, you need to be strong both for you and your kids.

F-26

Not only will you not recover this way, but you only have the word of a practiced liar that the affair is over. That is meaningless. Changing shifts is meaningless, even if he was willing. That will not solve the problem. He will still see her.

My suggestion would be to expose the affair at Human Resources and ask them to them to take action. They may not do anything at all, but it will make it much harder for them to carry on their affair at work if they are being watched. They will call them in and question them which will make them real uneasy. We have seen affairees QUIT over that discomfort. But exposing it like that is like chemotherapy to cancer. It will make it uneasy for them at work and make it less likely they will resume the affair.

Here is a template letter for HR developed by BritsBrat, a corporate attorney:

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

BS
_________________________

tjp, that is the last shot I would take and if that doesn't work, then you really need to consider plan B. Just changing shifts will not suffice. They will still see each other at work, in the hallways, at meetings, at conventions. So changing shifts is meaningless. In order to recover your marriage they have to stop working at the same place, period.

The Harleys do not recommend the 180 degree plan and that will not help you in this situation. His continued contact with the OW will wear you down emotionally until you are MORE of basket case. You have to remove yourself from this triangle altogether.

TJP, so sorry you are going through this. Cyber hugs being sent your way...I know the hell you are going through right now...

I agree with everyone else, you need to be moving towards Plan B. Your WH doesn't even sound close to leaving his job.

We had a poster here whose WH stayed in contact with the OW at the workplace for quite a while, and her emotional state just continued to get worse and worse...which IMO seemed to make it harder for her remove herself from the situation.

Hang in there and keep posting.

When will he be satisfied? When you're so worn down you've got a knife at your wrist? Will he realize then?

Seriously, hon, use the letter template, look up the names of the HR head honchos and the chief of police, AND the mayor, and let them ALL know that if they refuse to do anything, they will be seeing you in court when you sue. And that you will be happy to start making statements to the local press about how the city's police force does things.

If your H doesn't like you protecting y'all's marriage...then it's not really a marriage, is it?