Too many folks have been consoling me with the equivalent of "Oh! She's gonna be a train wreck!" or "She's gonna have an absolutely miserable time ahead in her life. Just wait and see..."

But, to date, the wh*re is doing her thing with full abandon and not an iota of repent.

Does it ever come? Does the fog ever lift for them? Can they really ever be happy in life knowing full well what destruction they have caused?

If you are asking about while in R, for WSs the remorse comes when their EN are met and there are no LBs (and no longer in the fog). That is when they grasp the damage that was done and truly feel shame for putting their spouse through it all. If you're writing about WS who choose OM/OW, they may never grasp remorse because they are selfish. If it doesn't workout with OM/OW then they remember what they had and may start to feel remorse, pain. I've seen that happen repeatedly here.

GG

I sometimes wonder the very same thing. You are not alone in that regard. I can only hope that it will happen. Sending good thoughts your way.

No sign of remorse from my XH. But he's still with OW.

HIP,

Are you still 3,000 miles away? What is your plan? Are you trying to save your M?

No it doesn’t. Not anywhere I have seen. Here or irl.

Let’s get real. WW never ever directly feel the pain of what they have done. They don’t feel any pain when they are causing it. They don’t feel it when they stop causing it. They don’t feel any pain when they start up again. They don’t even feel this pain when they themselves get betrayed. They don’t feel it on their deathbed.

Your words do not happen in recovery, do not happen if D, do not happen when the adultery ends, they simply do not happen. This is wishful thinking. They don’t feel the pain of what they have done to you even when they themselves think they get it.



HIP, your best bet is to negotiate/beg/demand/otherwise arrange to have her meet your EN’s so well you are drugged back into the MB fold and can forget her adultery happened. That is what the MB method is basically all about, you know. Have your ENs met sufficiently and you kind of slip into a sleepy don’t care any more state. It’s called recovering romantic love, but it’s just EN satiation, as in addiction, within the marriage.

Until she does it again.

I've given up on my M. Don't want that wh*re back in my life anymore. Unfortunately, we'll always be connected at the hip in some way - our beautiful kids! California law s*cks! Imagine, I have to share my kids 50-50 with an adulterous wh*re who really has no feelings towards my kids.

Good news is that it's a few years wait until both my babies turn 18 and will never look back at their wh*ring Mom ever again!

Yes, I am still 3000 Miles away, suffering because I'm away from my kids...

You sound like you are in a lot of pain, i am sorry for that.

What do you do now?

HiP,

You are hurting big time right now and your WW is NOT -- which makes your hurt even greater -- every BS here has been where you are now, myself included. I know this sounds like "pie in the sky", but the hurt will slowly decrease as you stay in Plan B/NC ... there is no point or utility whatsoever in having her in your life in any way (outside of what is absolutely needed for your kids), so don't. [I am assuming you have done some sort of Plan A-like activity beforehand.]

As for your questions, EVERY BS wonders those exact things as well, and "it can't be soon enough" for all BSs...I know. There is no way to know or predict with certainty when (or even IF) it will happen, but it USUALLY does...sometimes, sadly, long after the BS doesn't care any more and it no longer holds any meaning for them.


Here are some general principles about the WS "fog":

1. The fog blinds them completely (or nearly so) to the pain they have caused/are causing to their BS/family/friends/etc. Don't expect much in the way of self-awareness, honesty, empathy, or remorse while the fog is in effect.

2. The fog is caused by the addictive high of the brain chemicals (phenylethylamine, PEA, being the primary one) that are released and in play associated with her having "fallen in love" with the OM.

3. Only 3 things cause the fog/chemicals to dissipate and rational, empathetic thinking to return: the WS voluntarily & permanently breaking off the A (rare), the OP dumping them/ending the A (fairly common), and TIME (universal). The "head-over-heels" infatuation [limerance] phase of ANY relationship is inherently self-limited and is nothing more than a temporary bio-evolutionary mating call that serves to perpetuate the species....akin to "heat" or "the rutting season" is for 4-legged animals.

4. If the A continues, it usually takes 2-3 years for the "love chemicals" (and therefore "the fog") to naturally abate. This is virtually universal. 2 years is average, but clandestine relationships (as all affairs are for at least a while) tend to have somewhat extended "limerance phases". Figure ~2 years from the time of exposure and the A being fully brought out into the light of day (assuming of course that exposure fails to result in the affair-partners splitting due to outside pressures).

5. This is why the Harley's recommend "waiting 2 years" in Plan B after exposure if you want to try and save the M (as difficult as that seems and is).

6. Assuming the A survives (which many do not) through the ~2 year period, the affair-partners fairly quickly lose the effortless, euphoric, ga-ga, in-love feelings induced by PEA and have to either end it or accept each other "as they are". Psychologists call this the "VOLUNTARY love phase". Most affairs and most OP's do not and cannot possibly live up to the idealized fantasy that was at play in the limerance phase. Most WSs enter the A as an escape or a 'search for something more' and discover that their OP is someone they really have little true connection/commonality with and is someone they would never have "chosen" as a romantic partner under emotionally-healthy circumstances in the first place.

7. To be fair and not sugar-coat, a small percentage of affairs DO survive well beyond the ~2-year period. Usually this is because the A is still undiscovered/unexposed, the BS is allowing continued cake-eating, or because divorce(s) has/have occurred and the partners affair-marry each other. 90% of such 'affair-ages', which most often happen in the foggy phase "before the ink is dry", go on to divorce within 10 years and only a small fraction survive until "death do us part".


http://womensinfidelity.com/

Aphelion, you are REALLY starting to get on my nerves. I mean REEEEEEALLY getting on my nerves. Stop using YOUR situation to describe everyone else. It's getting really old.

never mind...

It really goes deeper than that with me SWW - it's personal. I know he never presents a rosy picture of marriage building but there are many, many WS's on MB that don't fit with his insulting summation of a WS. It REALLY p*s me off. I've been on MB since 2004 and I'm in contact with a number of FWWs who just do NOT fit in with his reasoning.

Geez, it gets my panties in a wad.

Perhaps I am not seeing the trees for the forest. I just haven't seen many former wayward spouses come back to "reality" to convince me that it's probable or even a decent % that they will come back to reality.

I've seen many. Not just the WSs who come here on their own volition but the BS's who have had them come back.

I've also seen a lot of very disheartening stories but what I am really taking exception to is Aphelion's constant harping about WW's "never getting it".

It makes me so mad, steam comes out of my ears.

Don't think in absolutes. Think more in terms of a bell curve - the majority toward the middle and the minorities on the edges. Aphelion and his WW are each on one extreme of their respective curves but he believes he is in the middle.

okay, sorry about that.

Absolutely, Pio. Thank you for putting it like that.

but in the center of the bell curve seems to be the data that most of these things don't work out happily. Isn't that true?

I don't believe so. I really don't.

Just read your first thread. I understand now.

good night all, sorry for the T/J.

SWW

Yes, we did t/j didn't we. Oops.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on the issue but if you examine ALL data, I suspect it likely is true. What I mean by "all" data is that you take into account all marriages where infidelity has occurred. I think I heard a statistic that something like over 50% of such marriages go straight to divorce and that 50+% has to be included. I do believe the percentage of those who successfully and happily recover are toward one end of the curve. If you limit your sample to only those couples who have tried reconciliation or, even worse, those that have tried the MB approach, then I think it gives a much more pessimistic view.

Look at how many registered users there are on this site. Look how many regularly post. Most that fail don't continue to post but there are also those that succeed that decide to "move on" and no longer post. What would be interesting is to know of all the registered users, what percentage D'd, stayed in the M but unhappily, recovered and are happy, etc. I think Glass, Pittman, et.al. do offer statistics but, since most M's hit by infidelity go straight to D, there will never be a true representative sample. This would also be heavily skewed by culture/nationality. Knowing something about Mexico, for example, I don't believe statistics developed in the US could be applied in Mexico because the cultural attitude to marriage, religion and infidelity is so different.

Couple of things. First , I agree, the chances of a marriage surviving are pretty low, even by Harley's admission. Most plan A's do not work and Plan B has even less success. They may give the best chance, but it is still a longshot. I've read several stats in the 30% range, which seem consistent with Harley's figure, near as I can tell.
My own therapist who practices a lot in this area says he sees about 10% stay together, and these are folks that, intially, are at least motivated to try. Many just get out right away.
Second, I have no way of knowing if some WW's feel remorse and pain. I have never seen it from my tow XWWs, so I have some doubts.
I do feel, that if they do feel pain, it is qwarfed by the pain they have inflicted on the BS. I think a person capable of a LTA is fundamentally different than those who don't go that route. It takes so much lying and deceit and disregard for others that it seems improbable that they have normal levels of empathy or integrity. So, I wonder what those that claim remorse feel and whether it stems more from regret at being caught vs feeling bad for the BS.

It's only been a few months HiP. Your WW may never feel remorse but I'd bet she's not going to have a rosy life either. Miserable? I don't know but given that she's a user, has poor coping mechanisms, and believes a POSOM is a good guy...I do believe it will catch up with her one day. It may take years, it may take decades but odds are against her given her messed up mentality.

Just fighting and living for my kids right now. Can't even think of getting into any relationship of my own - not now, not in the future! Living and taking one day at a time. Trying hard to get my interests in my most beloved hobbies resurrected.

I have even quit my job, as unfortunate as it is, given this terrible economy.

What beats me, is how can any court, or any jury ever think that a wh*ring spouse is capable of taking good care of the kids? Even 50%? My wh*ring wife was getting it off for 5 hours in her car while I was attending my daughters big school play, and all my daughter could ever focus on was the empty seat besides me - her Mom never showed up. We caught up with her later at home - looking pretty exhausted - since the s*x had been ravaging for her body. And now, the judicial system claims that same woman can take care of my kids? What a joke!

Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that there hasn't been a day that's gone by in 4 years that I haven't thought about what I did, and I wonder if there ever will come a day that I don't think about it...I'm beginning to think that is part of the consequences...For me it certainly isn't about regretting being caught...I'm soooooooooooo THANKFUL that I was caught and stopped...I regret DEEPLY what I put Mr. W through...I've read his journals from my wayward time period and I promise you that I feel CRUSHED that I did that to him...I shudder to think the amount of damage that I would have caused our dd if I had continued on the very destructive wayward path...I also feel great embarrassment that I ever acted that sleazy, immature, cruel...and so many other negative adjectives...Additionally, I feel HUGE amounts of awe for Mr. W's strength, mercy, forgiveness and grace...

So yes, I believe that if a FWS truly repents they do feel great amounts of soul searing remorse...

Mrs. W

Well, then I do not understand how you were capable of doing this to him in the first place, then. I have no reason to doubt you. But, it is confounding trying to understand why someone capable of feeling remorse does this for so long. There must be some explanation but I can't understand it. It is like robbing a bank or some other egregious offense. Can a good person really do this?

Well yes, Zelmo, it baffles the heck out of me as well...I will tell you that both Mr. W and I were quite liberal...saw the "gray" in things before this happened...proudly called ourselves "open-minded" and other bumper sticker stuff like that...ugh...We believed we could be "friends" with our ex boyfriends/girlfriends - have opposite sex friends...We were naive about that...I came very close to being the BS myself...Mr. W propositioned one of our staff who THANKFULLY said "no"...My affair came later...it was with my old high school/college boyfriend...When he contacted me thru classmates I told Mr. W that day...Many of our conversations were held with Mr. W in the same room...the slope got too slippery...it was a MISERABLY BAD PLAN to be talking to an ex boyfriend that I'd had a past sexual relationship with...DUH!!! (hindsight is crystal clear of course)

Yes, I do believe that "good people" can succumb to temptation...The key is never putting yourself in temptation's way, yes? So, now we know...ugh...I'd give anything to have learned this another way...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,

along the lines of this thread can you try to explain something for me? Do you have any explanation or reason why you "got it" and became remorseful and changed but so many others don't?

I guess also, do you have a theory as to the thoughts of so many WS's who never repent? Do you think it's stubborn pride? Do you think they do feel bad but can't admit it?

Do you think that the A trnasforms their brains' DNA forever and forever clouds their sense of right and wrong? Do you think they maybe feel like they can't ever be forgiven, so why try?

Have you ever spoken to a repentent and an unrepentent WS and seen the difference in their thinking and questioned it?

I know this is a tough, and perhaps idiotic question. I mean I know you can't speak for all. I was just wondering if you had a theory?


SWW

Hi SWW...Just a few light questions, eh? I'll give it a shot...

MANY, MANY times I read the stories here and say, "There but for the grace of God go I"...I too have wondered why I was "spared"...This is what I've come up with in my thoughts on it...

1. I had a heck of a time leading a "double life" and got caught very quickly which meant less entrenchment...It was about a 3 month affair and it was long distance...I literally acted so crazy that it was impossible not to know something was up with me...I had always been an open book to the extreme, so when I wasn't suddenly it was glaringly obvious that something was going on...Dishonesty was not something that came easily for me at all...this was an aberration of character for me...I do feel blessed that I was granted the opportunity to see and repent for not just the affair, but for other sins as well...repentence is such an incredible gift...

2. I have a VERY moral mother who stood by Mr. W and was instrumental in ending my affair...She is NOT one of those moms that would ever say "whatever makes you happy"...She and Mr. W conspired on just what to do, and then my mom called OM (who she'd known since we were kids) with some MAJOR legitimate threats telling him to "End it now, WITHOUT telling Mrs. W why, or ELSE"...And he did...and I didn't know about that for about 1.5 years after the fact. (Thank God...that was information that foggy me didn't need to know at the time.) My mom and Mr. W saved me and our family from me! God bless them...

3. I grew up in a home where problems were "swept under the rug" and it drove me CRAZY...(my father had Bipolar Disorder and refused treatment always)...I KNEW what not dealing with things head on would do to a family...For that reason I recognized that this (affair recovery) HAD to be dealt with properly...You couldn't just ignore it and hope that it would go away...

4. I am a Christian...In the affair I was tormented by the fact that I was in active rebellion to God...I couldn't pray or even read Christian fiction...I had to work HARD to push God from my mind...When the whole thing came crashing down I KNEW that I had much to repent for...I was ashamed...And back again to my incredible mom...I often hear her voice in my head saying, "times may change, but morals never do"...and it brings to mind Proverbs 22:6 (NIV), "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it."

5. Mr. W is a BIG reason that I got it...and I can't likely do justice to all the whys of that in writing either...I wish I could...First, he's an amazing guy...it was REAL TOUGH to do a history rewrite about him so that I could justify what I was doing...ESPECIALLY when he began Plan A...He was also fantastic at feeding me stuff that he knew would get back to OM that would attack his insecurites...(Mr. W is an evil genius )...Mr. W is a very calm and confident guy...He has never once yelled at me or called me a name - he comforted me and showed me empathy when I certainly didn't deserve it...He listened to such major fog and never even flinched...a lesser man would have crumbled...He loved me when I was at my most unlovable...You know it's real hard to not be incredibly sorry that you did something so heinous to someone so wonderful...all the bogus rationalizations and justifications fall away very quickly in the face of such amazing grace...

As far as other WSs go, gosh, that's a tall order and I'm not really qualified to answer, but I suppose my theory is that perhaps they were not raised with much moral guidance...had parents that were all about "follow your heart"..."whatever makes you happy"? I honestly don't know...I can only tell you that I am so grateful that I was spared...I most assuredly did not deserve to be...

Mrs. W

I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to write that Mrs. W.

SWW

Read my update. I'm one who is divorced and my xh was one of the WORST WS's imho ever here.

My xh not only cheated on me, but after our divorce and his immediate remarriage he CONTINUED cheating on her..the x ow. FOR THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

Hmmm. what broke him? Well imho unless the family and friends OPENLY CALL OUT and tell the WS and tell them of their displeasure with the cheating and ema's it will continue. They have to FEEL some pain and or loss of something dear.

It had to be exteme for my now xh to change.

A year and a half ago he had a near death experience involving a long hospital stay and a flight on life flight to save him. Did that work? Nah.

What did? Total revocation of his freedom due to his own choices and actions. He's in jail now due to another WS deed..involving he said/she said with yet another ow.

It depends on the person..but the more dastardly the deeds of the WS to me equals the absence of moral compass and conscience. My xh was as about a dastardly WH as one could come by.

Mrs. W you are *very* lucky to have such a Mom. My WW's Mom shot back with "She's finding happiness". My immediate thoughts to that were: she's probably slept around too in her days.

Still trying to come to terms with how my whole life has changed in less than 6 months - my dreams, hopes, fears, stresses, everything! Shattered!

I agree...the dire scenario Aphelion presents is a slim exception to the rule. And who would ever want to be with someone who was that inacapable of self-reflection, self-improvement, and empathy anyway?

Mrs W,

It's uncanny how I am always in agreement with you.

It's not just that (and I agree BTW). It is bordering on asocial. This is a personality that could end up on CNN. I'm glad I don't live near someone like this. Seriously. For my childrens' sake.

I do agree that likely less than half of marriages affected by infidelity survive and truly recover. My guess is that a subset of these (confessed ONSs, short-term romantic flings, i.e. a few months, that are over and admitted to the BS) have much higher "successful recovery" rates. Among the subset we see here on MB most often--ongoing romantic affairs with unrepentent, completely-fogged-up WSs--I would estimate that 2/3rds or more end in divorce...with a small percentage of these couples re-marrying each other later (I think I read a figure of 12% somewhere for this scenario). As a general guide, I would say the following:


1. The longer the affair was/is, the less likely recovery ensues.

2. If the affair is ongoing (as opposed to ending/ended) at the time of admission/discovery, the less likely recovery ensues.

3. If the WS is in continuing "unrepentent lie-and-deny mode" (as opposed to displaying at least some measure of confession & contrition), the less likely recovery ensues.

4. The less "outside pressures" & negative consequences (disapproval by children/family/friends, financial/career implications, social ostracization, etc.) that are available to bring to bear via exposure, the less likely recovery ensues.

5. The more tightly involved (i.e. 'in-love' as well) the OP is, the less likely recovery ensues.

6. The more highly romantic (i.e. strong belief in the over-riding value of 'feelings') the WS is, the less likely recovery ensues.

7. The longer the affair-partners knew each other platonically beforehand, the less likely recovery ensues.

8. If the affairee is the WIFE, the less likely recovery ensues.

Do you define recovery as simply not getting divorced, in limbo or as a truly happy marriage in the above assessment?

Actually, the stats from studies & surveys on this are fairly compelling. Looking at people who left their marriages for affairs, 85% admit to regret and remorse for doing so 3-5 years out from divorce. I doubt even they can ever fully appreciate the magnitude of the pain the BS has been through and I would guess that many don't really want to know and don't want to face it.

Cold comfort for the BS: feeling (often long-delayed) remorse for the anguish they inflicted and having regret for "not doing things differently back then" is NOT the same thing as the WS/xWS truly and genuinely attempting reconciliation. There are many reasons for this--the BS/xBS doesn't want them back, the xBS has re-married or is serious with someone, the WS/xWS can't bring themselves to express these thoughts TO their BS/xBS, the xWS goes on to someone new after their A ends, and so on and so on.

I know personally of several WS who left for an affair and now wish they hadn't after finding out that "the grass wasn't so green" after all. I even knew of 2 xWS who attempted to reconcile with their xBS after their (predictably) failed affair-marriages...their original spouses wanted nothing to do with them anymore.

First, thenk you for the explanation Mrs W.
Along the lines of what SDCW says, I read an anlogy that made sense to me.The author compared the aftermath of an affair and its effect on a relationship to having a flat tire. If immediate attention is paid, like remorse, transparency, ownership and couseling, it is like fixing the flat before driving on it extensively. But, when the WS coninues to lie, gets defensive and abusive, it is like continuing to drive on the tire. It gets shredded and the rim is damaged.
My first wife was a serial cheater. She never confessed or apologized until my son confronted her with information he had solicited from me when he got older. I , misguidedly, had tried to protect her image to him and had never given him the info he deserved(of course , he was 4 when I found out.
Then 7 years after the divorce, when she found he now knew, she came to me an apolgized. I had no feelings for her anymore and when she told me she still loved me, I felt nothing but pity and some anger.

I mean REAL recovery...A over, NC, re-committing to the M, no more 'new people', WS & BS have "learned valueable lessons", etc.

I'm sure the rate of "false recoveries" (ongoing A, NC not maintained, new A, nothing truly learned, things kept secret, etc.) is VERY high.

Heck, I almost had 2 false recoveries with my WW/xWW--1 stopped by each of us:

1. In the 1st, which occurred before I had proof of the A but only suspected it, WW promised she "was coming back home to us tomorrow" only to change her mind (under the guise of fearing I "would be too clingy"). I later found out that she was planning on continuing the A via work with her also-married OM who wasn't yet divorcing to flesh it out further. Obviously, it was just an attempt or plan to cake-eat for a while longer that she quickly realized I would soon discover.

2. The 2nd was a 1-year-post-divorce phone call in which she choked up and expressed genuine (but very incomplete) remorse, sorrow, and regret and offerred to start a new relationship with me. I was wise to her by this point and knew that she was still reluctantly hanging on to OM (grass ain't so green!) and wanted to either cake-eat again or not let go of him before knowing she had me to run back to. I told her NO WAY and to not call me ever again as long as she was still with him in any way.

[Note: This goes back to my earlier point about a WS/xWS "feeling pain"...she DID express sincere regret, remorse, and apology. But she DID NOT display REPENTANCE. Repentance is all of the above + complete honesty/responsibility + repudiating/turning away from the actions that one is sorry for. Without true repentance, there can not ever be real recovery, IMHO.]

I'll let you all know what happens when I get the letter from my xh. It supposedly made his w, (the x ow) cry her eyes out..he actually SHOWED it to her today to get her opinion.. if he wrote it well enough..(slap)

It's supposedly a letter of remorse..stating he wished he had never done what he did to me or to our son/family. That he is truly sorry, etc..we've been divorced five years and I've completely moved on..in a very serious R now.

My x has hit complete rock bottom..finally. It took him to lose his legal freedom to find his faith again, and to be away from his children for over a month now to get this way.

I think the longer they are a WS, the lesser chance of true reconciliation. Also had my xh not married the day after the divorce his ow (who was pregnant and demanding he marry her or else..legal crap..more legal stuff) we might have reconciled. Had she not been pregnant that is..

He never would have married her so shortly after our divorce (which during, I called him out, cited adultery as one of the reasons for divorcing and brought it into the light of day)were she not pregnant and imho he truly blamed her for forcing his hand and threatening MORE legal action..and he cheated on her since day one over and over.

So he has been a WS for SEVEN YEARS now...seven years. That's a long time. It took first a near death experience followed the next year with jail to turn him around. Nothing else could have done that. But it's far too late for us..my love bank went empty in December of 2003 and was in the red, waaay in the red on the divorce date in 2004. I'm also happy and soon to remarry btw..not even looking back except for helping out here..

OMG!

Well, to quote Forrest Gump, "stupid is as stupid does".

Tell me that won't have a long term affect on AW - knowing that he is sorry he is with her.

Zelmo,

So sorry...that was heart-wrenching to read.

Yeah, my xWW told me last year "I was so hard-headed and I took you for granted", "I'm sure I will still love you for years to come", and "know that I am only a thought away...".

I knew right then that her affair-marriage to OM (his 4th) was ultimately doomed. Whatever! I want no part of her self-inflicted and self-destructive drama of cowardly, morally-bankrupt depravity...

Mine is taking the road of accepting it utterly...without remourse. Mine is viewing it as what makes her happy is alright. And her parents are both incouraging her. Her father has the double-standard to tell me what to do that protects her daughter even saying morales and ethics to me and has told me he won't tell her off on her actions.

Mine is taking the road of accepting it utterly...without remourse. Mine is viewing it as what makes her happy is alright. And her parents are both incouraging her. Her father has the double-standard to tell me what to do that protects her daughter even saying morales and ethics to me and has told me he won't tell her off on her actions.

Monc,

Every unrepentant WW in an ongoing-affair-relationship sadly takes exactly that view. They ALL deceive, rationalize, and justify it by saying/thinking:

"I need to be happy...life is too short"
"God wants me to be happy"
"I can't be happy with my BS, but OM makes me happy"
"(BH, family, friends, kids) will get over it...it's for the best and they will see it eventually"
"People (on WW's side) agree and support me...they understand"
"It's too late now! (with BH)"
"OM has nothing to do with my marriage; BH and I were 'over' anyway!"
"How can it (the A) be wrong when it feels so right!?"
"I didn't plan on this--it just happenned!"
"I'm sorry you are hurt, but can't you just accept this and be happy for me?"
"I did everything I could have done for our M...I finally just met the 'right' person for me"
"I can't help how I feel--I love OM and I'm not in love with BH anymore"
"I need to follow my heart and I can't change my feelings"
"Me and OM are soulmates and BFFs! We are meant to be together!!"
"(ignoring a thousand red flags) I know OM...he just needed the right woman -- me!"
"I deserve to be happy!"

and so on and so on.....

It is all right out of the wayward fog playbook....they will stubbornly defend it all ad nauseum.

All of the above statements ring true about things my WW has said. Very sad that her Mother (Dad died a few years ago) supports her daughter and justifies the A by "...she has found happiness!".

I truly wonder if a Plan A is ever meant for a BH to proceed with for a WW. 5 months of hell is what I've been true, and the A still goes on.

HiP,

Yes, the WW will find people (friends, family) to validate and enable their affair. They will use lies, exaggerations, half-truths, scapegoating (of BH), & rewriting of (marital) history to co-apt these folks into "understanding" and accepting their adultery on the basis of "I'm so much happier now!" These people, usually WW's family-members and/or close girl-friends, have a vested interest in staying on her "good side" and "appearing supportive" even when WW's activities may run counter to their moral/ethical values and instincts. [It reminds me of those politicians who try to have it both ways by proclaiming that they 'are personally opposed to abortion, but also defend anothers' freedom of choice on the matter'.] Those people who refuse to suck-up and "go along", a WW will cast aside as "not true friends" to avoid having to face guilt and reproach for the affair -- it is much easier to only surround herself with feckless, non-confrontational sycophants.

My WW did exactly this kind of splitting people into "good/true" vs. "bad/judgemental" camps too. Her father (alone on "her side" of things) did register his firm disapproval for her "shacking up" with her married-POSOM but also went along completely with her decision to forgo recovery and get a divorce. She lied to him extensively about the adultery (duration, timeline, nature, etc.), so he probably never fully appreciated how inter-related those 2 things (the A and the D) were. In my last letter to him, I made sure to explain that WW's AFFAIR CAUSED HER TO PURSUE DIVORCE, not the other way around as she had tried to lead him to believe once exposed.

My answer would have to be, No. I divorced WS a few months ago and he is still with OW and doesn't appear to be losing any sleep. I hope everyone else's experience is different! It would be so nice to just hear "I am so sorry, I must have been an idiot! I will regret it the rest of my life, throwing away the best thing that ever happened to me." But then again, I guess I'll know I'm truly moved on and over him when it no longer matters to me one way or another...

Aphelion,
You are quite wrong. Not only does my fWxW feel the pain and remorse of her A, she now bleeds daily from the RA I had right away. Not to mention the merciless exposure. So yeah, some WS do hurt and hurt badly. My fWxW did FAR more damage to herself than she did to me, then I retaliated using the scorched earth concept. It WILL get their attention...DUDE

Yeah the "marriage was over before I took up with OP" lie. My WH still to this day says "It has nothing to do w OW Im not even seeing her anymore" to everyone. And then constantly gets caught lying. He always gets bagged seeing OW and he is still trying to hide it. He doesnt want everyone to know that he is still acting like a scumbag.

Rest assured HiP, if your WW ever does wake up, she will NOT look fondly upon those people that supported her own demise by supporting the adultery...Not at all...The friends that I cherish are those that told me that I was being an IDIOT...And you've read the story of my mom and how she stood up and helped to end my affair - there is no greater love than that, imo...It's mind boggling to me that so many parents don't seem to understand that...It is NOT loving to hold your child's hand while they destroy themselves and others around them...That is WEAK and UNLOVING...I just told my mom on Saturday again how in awe of her I remain...How I will never stop needing her as a parent, how much I love and appreciate her...

HiP, I'm so very sorry that you are going through this...When are thinking about going to Plan B? Dr. Harley usually recommends Plan A for 6 months for men...Sounds like you are about at that timeline...Have you started preparing?

Mrs. W

Dude007,

You have so much to learn...PLEASE do yourself and others a favor and STOP touting how great your revenge adultery was...It is truly sickening...Your adultery is no better than any other adultery...What you are doing is the EXACT SAME as if the original WS came here bragging about how much their adultery hurt their BS...That is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE!

Mrs. W

Mrs. W, I am currently in Plan B. But, WW does not seem to want to leave me alone - every other day I receive some new motion or order served to me by her lawyer - including a restraining order. They know I am 3000 miles away and will need to fly down if I am to defend any of this crap.

Affair details keep trickling in and the more I get to know the more disgusting it is - the s*x between WW and OM has been very, let's say, "animalistic", for lack of a better term.

It seems WW took kids to 2 different psychiatrists - who told her, in their presence, that she should let the kids go off to me immediately! My Son, it seems, is on the verge of a breakdown (if not already there!). But, WW is too "fogged up" to see how she is destroying my kids. I guess, so long as her orifices are all being filled, she doesn't care about anything else!

Ugh, I see HiP...I should have read your signature...I just read the post about Plan A and went from there...Did you move away? If so, may I ask why? Are you fighting for sole custody? If so, it seems to me that moving away would hurt your case tremendously...I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with your whole story...

Mrs. W

Moved away to be with my Sis and Mom and was immediately served with restraining orders - all hokey-pokey.

HiP...

I understand that you are hurting and this is likely killing you, but your responsibility is to your children...You have left them in the care of a CRAZY PERSON...I am not exaggerating...An active WW is NOT fit to be a mother...I am telling you this from firsthand personal experience sadly...It is by God's grace alone that nothing bad happened to our dd when she was in my care at that time...PLEASE, heed what I am saying...You are the only sane parent that those kids have right now...You need to move back into the area and protect your children...

Mrs. W

Vows,

The irony is that once the xBS has truly "moved on" and it "no longer matters", the A typically crumbles eerily co-temporaneously [Dr. Frank Pittman-- Private Lies ]. The more you (emotionally) "let him/her (WS) have 'it' (the affair)", the less appealing it becomes...

Best wishes,
SDCW

Has DS and DD been exposed to the OM? is she bringing him over to the Family home for sex?