This question sort of jumped out at me from another thread and I just wondered what others opinions were.
I was struck by the fact that many people seem to be using MB to try to recover their M, but they pick and choose which principles of the MB model they agree with.
For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable. I don't doubt the sincerity of their belief, but I don't see how they can hold that opinion and expect MB to "work" in recovering their M. Wouldn't maintaining that belief be an automatic barrier to intimacy/romantic love, which Harley/MB says is key to a happy marriage.
rprynne, do those people have great marriages? I would ask them that.
For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable.
I can't speak for everyone else but I'll give you my perspective.
I am a BS who will make that claim...that I would never be vulnerable.
But you know what?
When you dig beneath the surface, you will find that the reason I am not vulnerable is that I instinctively, have EPs in place. Maybe I don't call them that--in my mind, it's just COMMON SENSE!
For instance: a few weeks back, I got an email from an old boyfriend. One I almost married. I was engaged to the guy and broke it off. I'm struggling here with an alcoholic husband who can't seem to hold a job and our finances are a mess. Old boyfriend had his issues but has been wildly successful financially, written up in national magazines and seems to be enjoying a good life. I could EASILY have answered the email 'just in innocence'. He was married--I have no idea what his marital situation is now. And I'll never know because I never answered the email.
H on the other hand, not only got into an EA that I'm still not convinced didn't go PA, with an old girlfriend he ran into at a HS reunion (and with whom he'd kept in sporadic contact with unbeknownst to me over 18 years...), he also started to communicate with another HS friend--a woman ("just a friend" he told me--HA) and through the keylogger/snooping, I saw these friendly emails, stepping in when I saw her relay an erotic dream she had about him. He replied, wanting the details. That's when I stepped in. Told him I'd seen her email and did NOT tell him I'd seen his reply (keylogger remains a secret to this day). He claimed he never replied to it...so ANOTHER lie. But he did cut off all communication with her after that--I'd made a pretty big stink about it. This all happened right about the time I was busting him wide open on the EA---about 3 years ago.
So, who has the EPs here? Which one of us is most likely to cheat again should the right circumstances arise?
He clearly has an attitude of entitlement in a lot of different areas. He has the (lack of) moral character and judgement to be vulnerable to an affair again. It's greatly influencing my decision as to whether or not I want to stay married to him. He would have to OVERTLY embrace all the MB philosophy, including the EPs, which he would CONSCIOUSLY have to set in place because he lacks the ability to just do it out of COMMON SENSE.
Does that perhaps clear up where some of we BS might be coming from?
For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable. I don't doubt the sincerity of their belief, but I don't see how they can hold that opinion and expect MB to "work" in recovering their M. Wouldn't maintaining that belief be an automatic barrier to intimacy/romantic love, which Harley/MB says is key to a happy marriage.
And maybe they are not vulnerable because they don't put themselves in vulnerable situations? [I noted that one of those posters said she was not vulnerable because she doens't put herself in tempting sitations] It is not necessarily the belief that contributes to a happy marriage, but the actions. There is a huge difference between a person who engages in risky behavior and one who doesn't, regardless of his belief. If someone engages in risky behavior and makes her spouse miserable, then she won't have a happy marriage. But if a person does not engage in risky behavior and her spouse is not annoyed, then I don't see how that would preclude a happy marriage.
Those are the kind of questions you have to ask too.
Interesting question. Have you ever gone to the doctor when you're feeling under the weather? Sore throat, stuffy nose, ear infection, etc.? The doctor sends you home w/ several different antibiotics (e.g.) and specific instructions to take the full course of meds prescribed. But what if you start feeling better before you've taken all of your meds? Hey, if you feel all better, do you really have to finish the prescribed drugs - I mean, isn't that a bit unnecessary?
Doctors tell patients to complete the full course of antibiotics because, even when visible symptoms disappear, there may be lingering bugs in your body that can launch a second - and worse - assault. A full course of antibiotics should wipe those buggers out. A partially completed course could allow those buggers to regroup, so to speak, adapt and become more potent/harmful to your body - all while you seem cured on the surface.
I don't have years of experience w/ MB to back this up, but I would tend to think that you stand a better shot if you work the program in its entirety...
For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable.
When you dig beneath the surface, you will find that the reason I am not vulnerable is that I instinctively, have EPs in place. Maybe I don't call them that--in my mind, it's just COMMON SENSE!
I have to agree with this. EPs are instinctive and they are also trained. In my case, I'm in a male dominated career field. It isn't just male-dominated, it's an old boys club. Girls aren't allowed unless they want to "play". Imagine completing 5 guelling years of graduate school to discover that my training is useless and all I had to do was put out to get where I am!! Not only that, the women that do that are completely frowned upon, gossiped about, and basically only advance as far as their initial "promotion" because once done, their reputation is set. To get where I am now, I had to work very hard, produce impressive results and build my own reputation based on results, ethics, intelligence and integrety. It still only gets you so far - then the assumption is made that I did it the old fashioned way. So I didn't get to make it, then wipe my brow and say whew! Every single day I have to struggle with this. It has nothing to do with being married, single, divorced, widowed or whatever. My EPs are in place, active and highly toned. I exercise them constantly and no differently than when I was married. I know one false move and the old boys club will attack like a pack of dogs and my career will be ruined. I've busted through a couple of glass ceilings already and have been staring at another for a few years - not sure if it's worth the effort though. It really is that simple.
[When you dig beneath the surface, you will find that the reason I am not vulnerable is that I instinctively, have EPs in place. Maybe I don't call them that--in my mind, it's just COMMON SENSE!
Agree! You summarized everything I was trying to say right here!
Tabby, I worked in a field like that for years before I decided to jump ship to spend more time at home. I'm now doing work I could do with half my brain tied behind my back, but I've got tons of flexibility, so it works for me. But the 'old boy' network wasn't what made me jump ship, it was family commitment! And while I was having to play in the 'old boys' playpen, as you do every day, I also had to have those EPs highly toned and in place. And I worked many years in this atmosphere when I was single, as well as after I'd married. Yet, I firmly believe in 'not fishing off the company dock' so I had the EPs in place even then!
IMO, it really doesn't matter if they believe they are vulnerable or not. What matters is if they protect their marriage in spite of their disbelief of vulnerability. Unfortunately, most people won't take those necessary precautions if they don't believe they are at risk.
Most people cannot fathom what "right conditions" would make it possible for them to have an affair.
I learned what mine were. My H having an affair, leaving the family, coming home and continuing contact-hence-painful false recovery, H leaving again, and me finally believing all the history rewriting. I thought my marriage was over, and that my 20 years of memories weren't even real.
That set up the ENVIRONMENT for me to be VULNERABLE to an affair. But I still could have avoided one.
Along comes OM who was a BS himself, and he meets some starving ENs.
I had no boundaries to protect my marriage because I now believed my marriage was a lie and was ending. If I had kept boundaries in place (because I DID have them to start with), no matter how destitute the state of our marriage was, I would not have had an affair. So my affair is completely on me, even though the condition of our marriage was completely on FWH. Affairs happen because of lack of boundaries, not the condition of the marriage.
Those were the "right conditions" for me. I cannot fathom any other conditions where it would have been possible for me. But hey, I could not have fathomed these conditions pre-A.
I know of a FWW here whose child died while her H was overseas. It is a painful story to read...heartbreaking. One of the few FWS's my heart has ached for. THOSE were the "right conditions" for her. Had she not suffered the loss of her son and done it alone because H was overseas, she may very well have never had an affair.
My point is, until you are THERE, you cannot see what those right conditions would be.
In many cases, they are so extreme. But since you don't know they're coming...
EVERYONE NEEDS EP'S!!!
Dr. H has said that some affair happen in marriages where ENs are being met. But because there are no EPs, the WS allows someone else to meet ENs and they build up feelings for OP.
Affairs are ALWAYS ALWAYS about
defficient boundaries.
ALL the aspects of the MB program are critical to a happy, fulfilling recovery. I've seen people cut corners on the 15+ UA time, or keep IB, or refuse to be O&H. I don't believe those marriages will reach the intimacy and passion that Dr. H's complete program brings about.
When people pick and choose, in the end, they are just stealing from themselves.
For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable.
When you dig beneath the surface, you will find that the reason I am not vulnerable is that I instinctively, have EPs in place. Maybe I don't call them that--in my mind, it's just COMMON SENSE!
I have to agree with this. EPs are instinctive and they are also trained. In my case, I'm in a male dominated career field. It isn't just male-dominated, it's an old boys club. Girls aren't allowed unless they want to "play". Imagine completing 5 guelling years of graduate school to discover that my training is useless and all I had to do was put out to get where I am!! Not only that, the women that do that are completely frowned upon, gossiped about, and basically only advance as far as their initial "promotion" because once done, their reputation is set. To get where I am now, I had to work very hard, produce impressive results and build my own reputation based on results, ethics, intelligence and integrety. It still only gets you so far - then the assumption is made that I did it the old fashioned way. So I didn't get to make it, then wipe my brow and say whew! Every single day I have to struggle with this. It has nothing to do with being married, single, divorced, widowed or whatever. My EPs are in place, active and highly toned. I exercise them constantly and no differently than when I was married. I know one false move and the old boys club will attack like a pack of dogs and my career will be ruined. I've busted through a couple of glass ceilings already and have been staring at another for a few years - not sure if it's worth the effort though. It really is that simple.
Exactly! I am always astonished at my female counterparts who believe there is any benefit whatsoever to trolling the coworker pool for men. They are too stupid to understand that this amounts to CAREER RUINATION. If you play with the men at work, you are throwing away your career. I have worked with all men for 20 years and I KNOW what they say about the women who play. I never, ever want my male coworkers to talk about me like that. Women who play at work are considered "LOOSE CANNONS" to be avoided by peers, and eventually get managed out because no one trusts them. [men suffer a similar fate too]
There is a saying I've heard in A.A.: If you have a drunken horse thief and all he does is stop drinking, you still have a horse thief.
The point is that not drinking is only the first step away from a "highly strained, abnormal condition." A.A. has a program of recovery which, as the foreword to the book, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions states, "if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole."
I think this is true with the MB program, also. The most serene and "balanced" A.A.s I know are those who have fully incorporated A.A.'s principles into their lives. I think the MB program has enough statistical evidence behind it to show that it works.
A lot of A.A.s don't incorporate the Steps into their lives. They are the ones who come to meetings complaining about the problems and woes in their lives. We are free to "pick and choose" portions of a recovery program, but why do so when the entire program has been shown to work as it's described.
I was told early on in my recovery that "Fred's program doesn't work. Why not try our program, which does?"
A lot of A.A.s don't incorporate the Steps into their lives. They are the ones who come to meetings complaining about the problems and woes in their lives. We are free to "pick and choose" portions of a recovery program, but why do so when the entire program has been shown to work as it's described.
"half measures availed us nothing...."
This is true of MB just as it is with AA. What I do on MB is the same thing I do in AA, I look for those who have great marriages and find out how they did it. In every instance it is because they actually used the program. I have never met a person who had a great recovery in AA who only did half the steps or no steps.
The most tragic mistake I see here is one you alluded to in your post. We all know of AA members who simply quit drinking and never work the program. They are dry drunks. It is the same with MB; we have folks who are in marriages where the affair might have ended but that is where the marital recovery STOPPED. As a result, the marriage never recovers.
Sexymammabear, while it is possible that there is a circumstance of some sort that would make me more vulnerable to an affair than I've already experienced, I'm still confident my EPs would hold.
It's interesting that OH, ML and I have all done our time in the "playpen" (love that term BTW). It's hard to believe this type of thing would be training for marriage.
Sexymammabear, while it is possible that there is a circumstance of some sort that would make me more vulnerable to an affair than I've already experienced, I'm still confident my EPs would hold.
Tabby, I hope you don't think I was challenging you on that. I hadn't read your posts until after I posted.
I was one of those poeple who naturally had EPs in place. I didn't have to think about it or plan them out. But once the conditions of my life changed drastically enough, I felt there was nothing left to protect.
I was OBVIOUSLY wrong!
If I had purposed to have EPs, instead of just having them "naturally", they would have stayed in place when I needed them most.
This question sort of jumped out at me from another thread and I just wondered what others opinions were.
I was struck by the fact that many people seem to be using MB to try to recover their M, but they pick and choose which principles of the MB model they agree with.
For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable. I don't doubt the sincerity of their belief, but I don't see how they can hold that opinion and expect MB to "work" in recovering their M. Wouldn't maintaining that belief be an automatic barrier to intimacy/romantic love, which Harley/MB says is key to a happy marriage.
I've explained this before. A betrayed spouse most likely CAN NOT admit they would EVER do such a thing. The reason is they know how BAD it hurts on the receiving end. It is for that reason alone that most BS say they WOULD NEVER have had an A. Of course once the pain has been inflicted on you that would be your response. To NEVER cause another human being that much pain. For them to look deeper into their souls and think about life pre-DDAY, they more than likely had somewhat questionable barriers and it was remotely possible for them to get sucked in. Once they are the BS though, they are the victim. They are on the high horse. "I WOULD NEVER DO THAT!" "WAYNERDS" "WAYTURDS" They despise waywards and claim they could never sink that low. Its all a defense mechanism. To see yourself as a possible wayward, gives you some amount of impathy and I think aids in the healing process. JMHO DUDE
Tabby, unlike yourself, most people who believe they could never do that, don't have EP's in place
because of that belief. You and I can say it won't happen because we DO have EP's in place. And believe me, I DO. I was one of those who used to say I would never do it and practiced loose boundaries. For example, I would go to lunch and go shopping every Monday for years with our Ops manager, under the guise of discussing my account plans. When our relationship starting crossing new territory into the realm of the personal, I backed off real quick and ended those lunch sessions. I don't play that game anymore.
The ones who will have trouble are the ones who believe they are not vulnerable and as such, have NO EP's in place. They engage in risky behavior which leaves them vulnerable. They proclaim they can be "trusted" while they engage in risky behavior, when it is becuase of that behavior that they shouldn't be trusted. It is the drunk driver who swears "I AM A GREAT DRUNK DRIVER! TRUST ME!"
And to the other question, I followed not one Harly principle. NOT ONE! I had an RA. I got my own APT. I told her family off and did nuclear exposure AFTER THE A ENDED. Yet, here I am w/ my fwxw and I back together like the early days??!! IDK I imagine part of it is luck/karma/God, the other is I'm really hot and have cool sports cars!! hehe I'm kidding. DUDE
Tabby, unlike yourself, most people who believe they could never do that, don't have EP's in place
because of that belief. You and I can say it won't happen because we DO have EP's in place. And believe me, I DO. I was one of those who used to say I would never do it and practiced loose boundaries. For example, I would go to lunch and go shopping every Monday for years with our Ops manager, under the guise of discussing my account plans. When our relationship starting crossing new territory into the realm of the personal, I backed off real quick and ended those lunch sessions. I don't play that game anymore.
The ones who will have trouble are the ones who believe they are not vulnerable and as such, have NO EP's in place. They engage in risky behavior which leaves them vulnerable. They proclaim they can be "trusted" while they engage in risky behavior, when it is becuase of that behavior that they shouldn't be trusted. It is the drunk driver who swears "I AM GREAT DRUNK DRIVER!"
You had all that control but were WASTED ALL THE TIME??! Seriously? DUDE
Oops reread..I'm w/ ya! DUDE
[A betrayed spouse most likely CAN NOT admit they would EVER do such a thing.
DUH! You posted this just after TWO betrayed spouses said they could do such a thing!
[A betrayed spouse most likely CAN NOT admit they would EVER do such a thing.
DUH! You posted this just after TWO betrayed spouses said they could do such a thing!
"most likely"
Please re-read? DUDE
[A betrayed spouse most likely CAN NOT admit they would EVER do such a thing.
DUH! You posted this just after TWO betrayed spouses said they could do such a thing!
"most likely"
Please re-read? DUDE
Sort of ruins your theory, though, doesn't it?
Dr. H has said that some affair happen in marriages where ENs are being met. But because there are no EPs, the WS allows someone else to meet ENs and they build up feelings for OP.
Affairs are ALWAYS ALWAYS about
defficient boundaries.
ITA with this because it's how our M was prior to the A...we were meeting ENs, spending a lot of time together.
IT's the boundaries and lack of EPs that hurt us.
the other is I'm really hot and have cool sports cars!! hehe I'm kidding. DUDE
You should add, Humbleness, Modesty, Caring, and that you poses great Integrity to that list...
Oh wait
The most tragic mistake I see here is one you alluded to in your post. We all know of AA members who simply quit drinking and never work the program. They are dry drunks. It is the same with MB; we have folks who are in marriages where the affair might have ended but that is where the marital recovery STOPPED. As a result, the marriage never recovers.
This is exactly what I thought when I read the title of this thread, though the question posed in rprynne's first post was a tad different, I am going to answer the thread's title question.
We have lived for years only using some of the MB concepts...doing it "cafeteria style", picking and choosing which concepts we were going to employ. It was tough because FWH was not fully on board with MB.
We've struggled for 2.5 years because of this. We would go through periods of time where things were acceptable and I would even have termed them "good", but
due to a lack of not using all of the conceptes, we eventually would stumble.Recently FWH has decided that approach isn't working and we are now employing ALL of the MB concepts...doing the assignments, using Kim to keep us accountable. Things have changed dramatically since then and it's been very encouraging.
It's too bad that it took this long because a lot of damage has been done, damage that we now have to reverse. It's not the best way to approach recovery, so from personal experience, I say
Use all of the MB concepts from the get-go. It will save you so much heartache.
The reason is they know how BAD it hurts on the receiving end. It is for that reason alone that most BS say they WOULD NEVER have had an A.
I disagree with this...knowing how bad it hurts is ONE reason a BS might say they would never have an A, but I think the MAIN reason is what OH, ML, and smb have said...because many of us had EPs in place NATURALLY.
Even if we didn't know what they were called, they were in place. THAT is why some of us BSs say we would never have an A. At least this is true for me.
[A betrayed spouse most likely CAN NOT admit they would EVER do such a thing.
DUH! You posted this just after TWO betrayed spouses said they could do such a thing!
"most likely"
Please re-read? DUDE
Sort of ruins your theory, though, doesn't it?
Not really? I think your sample size is quite LOW and is MB the place to take such a poll? Please brush up on your stats. You must have went to A&M..DUDE
the other is I'm really hot and have cool sports cars!! hehe I'm kidding. DUDE
You should add, Humbleness, Modesty, Caring, and that you poses great Integrity to that list...
Oh wait
I will..Thanks for the observations..DUDE
The reason is they know how BAD it hurts on the receiving end. It is for that reason alone that most BS say they WOULD NEVER have had an A.
I disagree with this...knowing how bad it hurts is ONE reason a BS might say they would never have an A, but I think the MAIN reason is what OH, ML, and smb have said...because many of us had EPs in place NATURALLY.
Even if we didn't know what they were called, they were in place. THAT is why some of us BSs say we would never have an A. At least this is true for me.
So are you saying for Melody Lane's scientific poll(She's an A&M grad) that you would have NEVER had an A. NOT POSSIBLE, NO WAY, NOT EVEN IF IT WERE TIGER WOODS? DUDE
The reason is they know how BAD it hurts on the receiving end. It is for that reason alone that most BS say they WOULD NEVER have had an A.
I disagree with this...knowing how bad it hurts is ONE reason a BS might say they would never have an A, but I think the MAIN reason is what OH, ML, and smb have said...because many of us had EPs in place NATURALLY.
Even if we didn't know what they were called, they were in place. THAT is why some of us BSs say we would never have an A. At least this is true for me.
So are you saying for Melody Lane's scientific poll(She's an A&M grad) that you would have NEVER had an A. NOT POSSIBLE, NO WAY, NOT EVEN IF IT WERE TIGER WOODS? DUDE
Wrong again, DUDE, I am not an A&M grad!
The reason is they know how BAD it hurts on the receiving end. It is for that reason alone that most BS say they WOULD NEVER have had an A.
I disagree with this...knowing how bad it hurts is ONE reason a BS might say they would never have an A, but I think the MAIN reason is what OH, ML, and smb have said...because many of us had EPs in place NATURALLY.
Even if we didn't know what they were called, they were in place. THAT is why some of us BSs say we would never have an A. At least this is true for me.
So are you saying for Melody Lane's scientific poll(She's an A&M grad) that you would have NEVER had an A. NOT POSSIBLE, NO WAY, NOT EVEN IF IT WERE TIGER WOODS? DUDE
I am saying that before my H's A, I had EPs in place without knowing that is what they were called.
I don't and didn't flirt, don't and didn't socialize with other men without my H . I am a SAHM so work is not an issue.
I don't and didn't email or talk on the phone to other men about personal things ~ and I never have. I've never had an interest in doing these things, in fact they make me uncomfortable. Before my H's affair, I didn't know why they made me feel uncomfortable...
I do now.During our FR, I started going out with girlfriends quite a lot...both married and single. We went to bars, went dancing...I wasn't protecting my boundaries and I KNEW it. I got myself into trouble a few times but KNEW what was happening and I knew exactly why. (I did not have an affair but DID put myself in inappropriate situations).
I was a complete mess during that time because of the FR (not excusing my behavior) but I still KNEW that what I was doing was risky and I was willing to take that risk.
Things are very different now...we are not in a FR and my M is improving every day. My EPs are iron-clad and when I think back on the FR and my weak boundaries and what I did, it makes me feel sick to my stomach.
I never want to feel that way again, therefore I will never do that again ~ I will never loosen up my boundaries and let my EPs slip. I see how that slippery slope works and I am not willing to take that risk.
DUDE needs to change his name to WRONG.
I followed not one Harly principle. NOT ONE!
And you also don't have a Marriage.
DUDE needs to change his name to WRONG.
You're at 3 standard deviations with a 95% confidence interval and moving out further per the Empirical Rule. DUDE
I followed not one Harly principle. NOT ONE!
And you also don't have a Marriage.
What do you have/get that I dont? A vow? I'm certain I get everything else you do. Dinner cooked, sex, etc..DUDE
And to the other question, I followed not one Harly principle. NOT ONE! I had an RA. I got my own APT. I told her family off and did nuclear exposure AFTER THE A ENDED. Yet, here I am w/ my fwxw and I back together like the early days??!! IDK I imagine part of it is luck/karma/God, the other is I'm really hot and have cool sports cars!! hehe I'm kidding. DUDE
So, back in the early days, you and your fwxw were perfectly content accepting a lifestyle that would never include marriage or any other form of commitment? Because I believe you have stated that you have no desire to ever get married again. So, if in those "early days" you never intended to marry or commit to your wife, then how did you end up married and committed?
And to the other question, I followed not one Harly principle. NOT ONE! I had an RA. I got my own APT. I told her family off and did nuclear exposure AFTER THE A ENDED. Yet, here I am w/ my fwxw and I back together like the early days??!! IDK I imagine part of it is luck/karma/God, the other is I'm really hot and have cool sports cars!! hehe I'm kidding. DUDE
So, back in the early days, you and your fwxw were perfectly content accepting a lifestyle that would never include marriage or any other form of commitment? Because I believe you have stated that you have no desire to ever get married again. So, if in those "early days" you never intended to marry or commit to your wife, then how did you end up married and committed?
I don't want anyone else other than my wife. I never will. I don't want to say a vow publicly again and have all the contractual obligations associated w/ it. DUDE
DUDE needs to change his name to WRONG.
You're at 3 standard deviations with a 95% confidence interval and moving out further per the Empirical Rule. DUDE
If you consider this thread to be sound statistical analysis, then you have earned your new name: WRONG.
DUDE needs to change his name to WRONG.
You're at 3 standard deviations with a 95% confidence interval and moving out further per the Empirical Rule. DUDE
If you consider this thread to be sound statistical analysis, then you have earned your new name: WRONG.
Nice try..You can't win(spin). Give it up!
How about WRONGO? That has a cute ring to it!
How about WRONGO? That has a cute ring to it!
OK, name calling means the argument has become FUTILE!! I'm in:
Melancholy Lane
Ummmm....I know ML personally and she is anything BUT Melancholy, I can tellyouthatrightnow.
Yes, I am being futile today. Back to work!
rprynne: My XWH thought all of MB was just fine except for that part about POJA. He HATED that part and refused to consider it, but thought that should be okay because he'd go along with the rest of it.
He was furious that I insisted on POJA, and that POJA just meant I was just trying to "control" him.
Of course, the real reason for his refusal to POJA is that you can't POJA girlfriends and he had NO intention of giving up the office skanks, strippers, porn, waitresses, Roller Derby girls and no doubt Shanghai prostitutes.
When I refused to back down on this, he rammed a divorce down my throat. It was final in January 2009.
Still think you can pick and choose?
Mulan
How about for DUDE...Just_A_Fire?
How about for DUDE...Just_A_Fire?
How about for DUDE...Just_A_Fire?
BuriedForever
CarriedForever
SCARRYFOREVER
hehe DUDE
I don't want anyone else other than my wife. I never will. I don't want to say a vow publicly again and have all the contractual obligations associated w/ it. DUDE [/quote]
Put this in Hallmark and send it to your XW. She deserves this info.
How about for DUDE...Just_A_Fire?
I don't want anyone else other than my wife. I never will. I don't want to say a vow publicly again and have all the contractual obligations associated w/ it. DUDE
Put this in Hallmark and send it to your XW. She deserves this info. [/quote]
BerberCAT
Didn't mean for this get into a name calling session.
Anyway, thanks for the responses. I understand what people are saying, but I'm still also curious about people's thoughts on a more fundamental level.
I look at the MB methods/principles as highly entrenched in cognitive behavioral therapy, where people have needs that can be identified and how they go about getting those needs met is a function of the interrelationship between thoughts, actions and beliefs. Understanding this and "optimizing" it is the path to success in a M.
However, the population at large tends to see the key to good relationships as a sort/find process where people are as they are, they are static, and the key is to find another that complements you.
I don't see how one can believe the later, and expect a process based on the former to produce successful results.
And, at least in my time here, it doesn't seem to be limited to just EP's or something like that. At one time or another people have seemed to object to what I see as foundational concepts to the MB approach. Concepts like people can change, like a committed M will be your greatest source of happiness, like sacrifice is bad for a M, like various EN's are legitimate, etc.
I'm certainly not the poster child for advocating a full "buy in", but I'm comfortable with what kind of ceiling that may put on the upper limit of the quality of my M. And I posed the question because I was curious if the others who don't/didn't buy in completely realized it causes a limitation or expected it not to matter.
I look at the MB methods/principles as highly entrenched in cognitive behavioral therapy, where people have needs that can be identified and how they go about getting those needs met is a function of the interrelationship between thoughts, actions and beliefs. Understanding this and "optimizing" it is the path to success in a M.
However, the population at large tends to see the key to good relationships as a sort/find process where people are as they are, they are static, and the key is to find another that complements you.
I don't see how one can believe the later, and expect a process based on the former to produce successful results.
The thing is there is a world of difference between the population at large and two people who are/have been married to each other. For example, our very own Dude comes across here as someone who many of us would not consider a "compatible" partner - had any of us met him in real life while in a stage of life we were looking for a potential husband. Mrs. Dude obviously thought he was compatible enough to marry him and did. Compatibility, or any other excuse the wayward may have thought up, is not the issue. We're talking about 2 people who, at one time, were compatible enough and complemented each other enough to make serious vows to each other.
This is an interesting question. It is a real paradigm shift for some, myself included. I love the church I grew up in and all that, but the idea is that God has just one person for you, you need to rely on Him to show you that one person, then you need to love them as you love yourself - but even further, you should consider that spouse above you in some ways, sacrifice is selfless and virtuous. A truly spiritual only expects God to meet their needs, so expectations of a spouse are misplaced dependency. You can see how these seemingly upright ideas can get stretched until you feel guilty for having needs at all.
I should have never had an affair. Raised in a CHristian home with two in-love parents. Dated selectively. Lived a spiritual and upright life. Saved myself for marriage. Prayed about who I married. Tried to do all I was supposed to do. Blah blah blah. So how did I end up cheating? Did everyone who had ever known me miss the egregious disfiguring character flaw I carried with me from birth? Yes, I was manic and selfish and hard hearted and STUPID. But was I always that way and just unknowingly putting up some good front? These questions plague me at times. I mean, I believe I am repented and changed now, but if I was so good at fooling myself then...
Anyway, MB has been like a burden lifted for me. It just makes so much sense in a world that seems to just ride on meotion most of the time. It is actually in line with the Biblical-ness of what I was taught. It's just that the teachers took an extreme slant to it. MB seems, well, SANE to me.
EVERYONE is vulnerable to an affair? Nonsense, and I take offense to that.
An affair isn't some predator, or a disease. It is a conscious choice.
EVERYONE is vulnerable to heroin addiction, too...assuming EVERYONE is stupid enough to shoot up the first time.
What do you have/get that I dont?
I don't know.
But that does not change the facts.
You did not follow Harleys plan, and you are not married.
I don't want anyone else other than my wife.
You do not have a wife.
You have a girlfreind/Ex-wife
I think that for the most part the majority of the MB principles are like the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) and they were "no brainers" to me personally and when i read them i thought well who doesn't do that until i read more and more and begun to see that a lot of people do not follow the golden rule.
However i think that once a spouse has had an A they HAVE to apply these principles in order for the BS to heal.
EVERYONE is vulnerable to an affair? Nonsense, and I take offense to that.
An affair isn't some predator, or a disease. It is a conscious choice.
EVERYONE is vulnerable to heroin addiction, too...assuming EVERYONE is stupid enough to shoot up the first time.
Watch out or ML will call you KRAZYO!!! DUDE
EVERYONE is vulnerable to an affair? Nonsense, and I take offense to that.
An affair isn't some predator, or a disease. It is a conscious choice.
EVERYONE is vulnerable to heroin addiction, too...assuming EVERYONE is stupid enough to shoot up the first time.
I was vulnerable BIGTIME...I wanted all kinds of strange booty and I'll be the first to admit it. DUDE
Watch out or ML will call you KRAZYO!!! DUDE
WRONGO!
Watch out or ML will call you KRAZYO!!! DUDE
WRONGO!
Ok, I take extreme offense to my locked thread. People start threads all the time about "FUNNY THINGS YOUR WS SAID". I said some of this is funny and it is, and I've learned alot on this board and I like everyone on this forum. Some that give me the hardest time. THAT IS NOT A TOS VIOLATION, regardless of the replies.
IMO, it really doesn't matter if they believe they are vulnerable or not. What matters is if they protect their marriage in spite of their disbelief of vulnerability. Unfortunately, most people won't take those necessary precautions if they don't believe they are at risk.
Most people cannot fathom what "right conditions" would make it possible for them to have an affair.
I learned what mine were. My H having an affair, leaving the family, coming home and continuing contact-hence-painful false recovery, H leaving again, and me finally believing all the history rewriting. I thought my marriage was over, and that my 20 years of memories weren't even real.
That set up the ENVIRONMENT for me to be VULNERABLE to an affair. But I still could have avoided one.
Along comes OM who was a BS himself, and he meets some starving ENs.
I had no boundaries to protect my marriage because I now believed my marriage was a lie and was ending. If I had kept boundaries in place (because I DID have them to start with), no matter how destitute the state of our marriage was, I would not have had an affair. So my affair is completely on me, even though the condition of our marriage was completely on FWH. Affairs happen because of lack of boundaries, not the condition of the marriage.
Those were the "right conditions" for me. I cannot fathom any other conditions where it would have been possible for me. But hey, I could not have fathomed these conditions pre-A.
I know of a FWW here whose child died while her H was overseas. It is a painful story to read...heartbreaking. One of the few FWS's my heart has ached for. THOSE were the "right conditions" for her. Had she not suffered the loss of her son and done it alone because H was overseas, she may very well have never had an affair.
My point is, until you are THERE, you cannot see what those right conditions would be.
In many cases, they are so extreme. But since you don't know they're coming...
EVERYONE NEEDS EP'S!!!
Dr. H has said that some affair happen in marriages where ENs are being met. But because there are no EPs, the WS allows someone else to meet ENs and they build up feelings for OP.
Affairs are ALWAYS ALWAYS about
defficient boundaries.
ALL the aspects of the MB program are critical to a happy, fulfilling recovery. I've seen people cut corners on the 15+ UA time, or keep IB, or refuse to be O&H. I don't believe those marriages will reach the intimacy and passion that Dr. H's complete program brings about.
When people pick and choose, in the end, they are just stealing from themselves.
SMB,
This was beautifully written. You brought up a lot of good points. I agree with everything you wrote. While I understand what everyone is say about "I would NEVER have an affair", I do think many don't realize just how vunerable they are. And really, most can't imagine or fathom that idea. But, using Mel's bankrobber analogy, I bet most couldn't fathom ever robbing a bank either......
Not2fun
IMO, it really doesn't matter if they believe they are vulnerable or not. What matters is if they protect their marriage in spite of their disbelief of vulnerability. Unfortunately, most people won't take those necessary precautions if they don't believe they are at risk.
Most people cannot fathom what "right conditions" would make it possible for them to have an affair.
I learned what mine were. My H having an affair, leaving the family, coming home and continuing contact-hence-painful false recovery, H leaving again, and me finally believing all the history rewriting. I thought my marriage was over, and that my 20 years of memories weren't even real.
That set up the ENVIRONMENT for me to be VULNERABLE to an affair. But I still could have avoided one.
Along comes OM who was a BS himself, and he meets some starving ENs.
I had no boundaries to protect my marriage because I now believed my marriage was a lie and was ending. If I had kept boundaries in place (because I DID have them to start with), no matter how destitute the state of our marriage was, I would not have had an affair. So my affair is completely on me, even though the condition of our marriage was completely on FWH. Affairs happen because of lack of boundaries, not the condition of the marriage.
Those were the "right conditions" for me. I cannot fathom any other conditions where it would have been possible for me. But hey, I could not have fathomed these conditions pre-A.
I know of a FWW here whose child died while her H was overseas. It is a painful story to read...heartbreaking. One of the few FWS's my heart has ached for. THOSE were the "right conditions" for her. Had she not suffered the loss of her son and done it alone because H was overseas, she may very well have never had an affair.
My point is, until you are THERE, you cannot see what those right conditions would be.
In many cases, they are so extreme. But since you don't know they're coming...
EVERYONE NEEDS EP'S!!!
Dr. H has said that some affair happen in marriages where ENs are being met. But because there are no EPs, the WS allows someone else to meet ENs and they build up feelings for OP.
Affairs are ALWAYS ALWAYS about
defficient boundaries.
ALL the aspects of the MB program are critical to a happy, fulfilling recovery. I've seen people cut corners on the 15+ UA time, or keep IB, or refuse to be O&H. I don't believe those marriages will reach the intimacy and passion that Dr. H's complete program brings about.
When people pick and choose, in the end, they are just stealing from themselves.
SMB,
This was beautifully written. You brought up a lot of good points. I agree with everything you wrote. While I understand what everyone is say about "I would NEVER have an affair", I do think many don't realize just how vunerable they are. And really, most can't imagine or fathom that idea. But, using Mel's bankrobber analogy, I bet most couldn't fathom ever robbing a bank either......
Not2fun
I agree WHOLE HEARTEDLY! That is the point. IT COULD HAPPEN TO ANYONE GIVEN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. Once the BS accepts this as the truth(and I think most don't!) then they can heal and forgive that much quicker and more fully heal. Not accepting it is an impediment to healing. DUDE
And I posed the question because I was curious if the others who don't/didn't buy in completely realized it causes a limitation or expected it not to matter.
I DID completey buy-in, but my DH did not, until recently.
I was very solid on my boundaries and said either we use them or we D (this was in my Plan B letter so he knew what he was getting into when we started recovery).
It's taken him a while to see the value of the MB concepts...we've had to learn the hard way that using them "cafeteria-style" does not work. Whether or not that is due to me never feeling safe without them, or whether it's because they all sort of "build on" each other, I am not sure.
All I know is if you want to fully recover your M, your BEST bet would be to use them all wholeheartedly. Not doing so leaves a lot of holes in your M that are not at all conducive to full marital recovery.
And FWIW, my DH sees NOW the limitations that not fully embracing the MB concepts imposes, but previously he thought it wouldn't matter and that we could recover anyways...we could not.
Looking back I don't think I realized how much that was impeding us, but I sure see it now.
Anyone else ever looked at the work of the late Shirley Glass?
Relationship Vulnerability Individual Vulnerability Social Vulnerability Might be my shortest post in months...
Sexymammabear, while it is possible that there is a circumstance of some sort that would make me more vulnerable to an affair than I've already experienced, I'm still confident my EPs would hold.
I'm sorry, I can't find what "EP" is.
EPs = Extraordinary Precautions
extraordinary precautions
Extraordinary Precautions. You'll find them on MB in sections discussing what a WS has to do in order to prevent the circumstances that led to them choosing an affair from recurring. We're using the term a little more broadly here - as in what a person (BS) naturally does or what boundaries they naturally have in place that would prevent them from choosing an affair.
EPs = extraordinary precautions
They are the boundaries put into place to protect the marriage.
Things like
I will not be alone with someone of the opposite sex.
I will not talk about personal things with anyone of the opposite sex.
and so forth...
I was expecting a much longer post on the subject.
My take is that the MB plan as put forth in the free material here and in the books and such is a good general template for both affair recovery and building and maintaining a healthy marriage.
The plans for dealing with infidelity work pretty well for most (or a lot) of situations because as we've all seen, most affairs share alot of similarities with each other, so a standard template works pretty well for a starting point at least, and for many of us the plan as written is sufficient. However, we've also seen several instances where Steve recommends variations to plans to better suit individual circumstances. So obviously the plans don't quite suit everyone, and even in "typical" circumstances, the MB plan doesn't always work.
I think its important to recognize that in the case of infidelity, we're already working with a failed marriage. The MB plan is an attempt to recover a failure, when you consider it from that perspective, its pretty remarkable how well it works. If the plan for a healthy marriage were implemented before a marriage had failed, one would probably see those marriages do much better than marriages that were not aware of the plan.
I suspect that most MB members whos marriages fail after they've tried the plans go on to be much more successful in later relationships because of what they've learned here, even if they wish they'd never had to learn it.