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This question sort of jumped out at me from another thread and I just wondered what others opinions were.

I was struck by the fact that many people seem to be using MB to try to recover their M, but they pick and choose which principles of the MB model they agree with.

For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable. I don't doubt the sincerity of their belief, but I don't see how they can hold that opinion and expect MB to "work" in recovering their M. Wouldn't maintaining that belief be an automatic barrier to intimacy/romantic love, which Harley/MB says is key to a happy marriage.


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rprynne, do those people have great marriages? I would ask them that.



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For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable.

I can't speak for everyone else but I'll give you my perspective.

I am a BS who will make that claim...that I would never be vulnerable.

But you know what?

When you dig beneath the surface, you will find that the reason I am not vulnerable is that I instinctively, have EPs in place. Maybe I don't call them that--in my mind, it's just COMMON SENSE!

For instance: a few weeks back, I got an email from an old boyfriend. One I almost married. I was engaged to the guy and broke it off. I'm struggling here with an alcoholic husband who can't seem to hold a job and our finances are a mess. Old boyfriend had his issues but has been wildly successful financially, written up in national magazines and seems to be enjoying a good life. I could EASILY have answered the email 'just in innocence'. He was married--I have no idea what his marital situation is now. And I'll never know because I never answered the email.

H on the other hand, not only got into an EA that I'm still not convinced didn't go PA, with an old girlfriend he ran into at a HS reunion (and with whom he'd kept in sporadic contact with unbeknownst to me over 18 years...), he also started to communicate with another HS friend--a woman ("just a friend" he told me--HA) and through the keylogger/snooping, I saw these friendly emails, stepping in when I saw her relay an erotic dream she had about him. He replied, wanting the details. That's when I stepped in. Told him I'd seen her email and did NOT tell him I'd seen his reply (keylogger remains a secret to this day). He claimed he never replied to it...so ANOTHER lie. But he did cut off all communication with her after that--I'd made a pretty big stink about it. This all happened right about the time I was busting him wide open on the EA---about 3 years ago.

So, who has the EPs here? Which one of us is most likely to cheat again should the right circumstances arise?

He clearly has an attitude of entitlement in a lot of different areas. He has the (lack of) moral character and judgement to be vulnerable to an affair again. It's greatly influencing my decision as to whether or not I want to stay married to him. He would have to OVERTLY embrace all the MB philosophy, including the EPs, which he would CONSCIOUSLY have to set in place because he lacks the ability to just do it out of COMMON SENSE.

Does that perhaps clear up where some of we BS might be coming from?

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Originally Posted by rprynne
For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable. I don't doubt the sincerity of their belief, but I don't see how they can hold that opinion and expect MB to "work" in recovering their M. Wouldn't maintaining that belief be an automatic barrier to intimacy/romantic love, which Harley/MB says is key to a happy marriage.

And maybe they are not vulnerable because they don't put themselves in vulnerable situations? [I noted that one of those posters said she was not vulnerable because she doens't put herself in tempting sitations] It is not necessarily the belief that contributes to a happy marriage, but the actions. There is a huge difference between a person who engages in risky behavior and one who doesn't, regardless of his belief. If someone engages in risky behavior and makes her spouse miserable, then she won't have a happy marriage. But if a person does not engage in risky behavior and her spouse is not annoyed, then I don't see how that would preclude a happy marriage.

Those are the kind of questions you have to ask too.


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Interesting question. Have you ever gone to the doctor when you're feeling under the weather? Sore throat, stuffy nose, ear infection, etc.? The doctor sends you home w/ several different antibiotics (e.g.) and specific instructions to take the full course of meds prescribed. But what if you start feeling better before you've taken all of your meds? Hey, if you feel all better, do you really have to finish the prescribed drugs - I mean, isn't that a bit unnecessary?

Doctors tell patients to complete the full course of antibiotics because, even when visible symptoms disappear, there may be lingering bugs in your body that can launch a second - and worse - assault. A full course of antibiotics should wipe those buggers out. A partially completed course could allow those buggers to regroup, so to speak, adapt and become more potent/harmful to your body - all while you seem cured on the surface.

I don't have years of experience w/ MB to back this up, but I would tend to think that you stand a better shot if you work the program in its entirety...


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Originally Posted by OurHouse
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For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable.
When you dig beneath the surface, you will find that the reason I am not vulnerable is that I instinctively, have EPs in place. Maybe I don't call them that--in my mind, it's just COMMON SENSE!
I have to agree with this. EPs are instinctive and they are also trained. In my case, I'm in a male dominated career field. It isn't just male-dominated, it's an old boys club. Girls aren't allowed unless they want to "play". Imagine completing 5 guelling years of graduate school to discover that my training is useless and all I had to do was put out to get where I am!! Not only that, the women that do that are completely frowned upon, gossiped about, and basically only advance as far as their initial "promotion" because once done, their reputation is set. To get where I am now, I had to work very hard, produce impressive results and build my own reputation based on results, ethics, intelligence and integrety. It still only gets you so far - then the assumption is made that I did it the old fashioned way. So I didn't get to make it, then wipe my brow and say whew! Every single day I have to struggle with this. It has nothing to do with being married, single, divorced, widowed or whatever. My EPs are in place, active and highly toned. I exercise them constantly and no differently than when I was married. I know one false move and the old boys club will attack like a pack of dogs and my career will be ruined. I've busted through a couple of glass ceilings already and have been staring at another for a few years - not sure if it's worth the effort though. It really is that simple.

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Originally Posted by OurHouse
[When you dig beneath the surface, you will find that the reason I am not vulnerable is that I instinctively, have EPs in place. Maybe I don't call them that--in my mind, it's just COMMON SENSE!


Agree! You summarized everything I was trying to say right here!


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Tabby, I worked in a field like that for years before I decided to jump ship to spend more time at home. I'm now doing work I could do with half my brain tied behind my back, but I've got tons of flexibility, so it works for me. But the 'old boy' network wasn't what made me jump ship, it was family commitment! And while I was having to play in the 'old boys' playpen, as you do every day, I also had to have those EPs highly toned and in place. And I worked many years in this atmosphere when I was single, as well as after I'd married. Yet, I firmly believe in 'not fishing off the company dock' so I had the EPs in place even then!

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IMO, it really doesn't matter if they believe they are vulnerable or not. What matters is if they protect their marriage in spite of their disbelief of vulnerability. Unfortunately, most people won't take those necessary precautions if they don't believe they are at risk.

Most people cannot fathom what "right conditions" would make it possible for them to have an affair.

I learned what mine were. My H having an affair, leaving the family, coming home and continuing contact-hence-painful false recovery, H leaving again, and me finally believing all the history rewriting. I thought my marriage was over, and that my 20 years of memories weren't even real.

That set up the ENVIRONMENT for me to be VULNERABLE to an affair. But I still could have avoided one.

Along comes OM who was a BS himself, and he meets some starving ENs.

I had no boundaries to protect my marriage because I now believed my marriage was a lie and was ending. If I had kept boundaries in place (because I DID have them to start with), no matter how destitute the state of our marriage was, I would not have had an affair. So my affair is completely on me, even though the condition of our marriage was completely on FWH. Affairs happen because of lack of boundaries, not the condition of the marriage.

Those were the "right conditions" for me. I cannot fathom any other conditions where it would have been possible for me. But hey, I could not have fathomed these conditions pre-A.

I know of a FWW here whose child died while her H was overseas. It is a painful story to read...heartbreaking. One of the few FWS's my heart has ached for. THOSE were the "right conditions" for her. Had she not suffered the loss of her son and done it alone because H was overseas, she may very well have never had an affair.

My point is, until you are THERE, you cannot see what those right conditions would be.

In many cases, they are so extreme. But since you don't know they're coming...

EVERYONE NEEDS EP'S!!!

Dr. H has said that some affair happen in marriages where ENs are being met. But because there are no EPs, the WS allows someone else to meet ENs and they build up feelings for OP.

Affairs are ALWAYS ALWAYS about

defficient boundaries.

ALL the aspects of the MB program are critical to a happy, fulfilling recovery. I've seen people cut corners on the 15+ UA time, or keep IB, or refuse to be O&H. I don't believe those marriages will reach the intimacy and passion that Dr. H's complete program brings about.

When people pick and choose, in the end, they are just stealing from themselves.

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Originally Posted by Tabby1
Originally Posted by OurHouse
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For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable.
When you dig beneath the surface, you will find that the reason I am not vulnerable is that I instinctively, have EPs in place. Maybe I don't call them that--in my mind, it's just COMMON SENSE!
I have to agree with this. EPs are instinctive and they are also trained. In my case, I'm in a male dominated career field. It isn't just male-dominated, it's an old boys club. Girls aren't allowed unless they want to "play". Imagine completing 5 guelling years of graduate school to discover that my training is useless and all I had to do was put out to get where I am!! Not only that, the women that do that are completely frowned upon, gossiped about, and basically only advance as far as their initial "promotion" because once done, their reputation is set. To get where I am now, I had to work very hard, produce impressive results and build my own reputation based on results, ethics, intelligence and integrety. It still only gets you so far - then the assumption is made that I did it the old fashioned way. So I didn't get to make it, then wipe my brow and say whew! Every single day I have to struggle with this. It has nothing to do with being married, single, divorced, widowed or whatever. My EPs are in place, active and highly toned. I exercise them constantly and no differently than when I was married. I know one false move and the old boys club will attack like a pack of dogs and my career will be ruined. I've busted through a couple of glass ceilings already and have been staring at another for a few years - not sure if it's worth the effort though. It really is that simple.

Exactly! I am always astonished at my female counterparts who believe there is any benefit whatsoever to trolling the coworker pool for men. They are too stupid to understand that this amounts to CAREER RUINATION. If you play with the men at work, you are throwing away your career. I have worked with all men for 20 years and I KNOW what they say about the women who play. I never, ever want my male coworkers to talk about me like that. Women who play at work are considered "LOOSE CANNONS" to be avoided by peers, and eventually get managed out because no one trusts them. [men suffer a similar fate too]


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There is a saying I've heard in A.A.: If you have a drunken horse thief and all he does is stop drinking, you still have a horse thief.

The point is that not drinking is only the first step away from a "highly strained, abnormal condition." A.A. has a program of recovery which, as the foreword to the book, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions states, "if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole."

I think this is true with the MB program, also. The most serene and "balanced" A.A.s I know are those who have fully incorporated A.A.'s principles into their lives. I think the MB program has enough statistical evidence behind it to show that it works.

A lot of A.A.s don't incorporate the Steps into their lives. They are the ones who come to meetings complaining about the problems and woes in their lives. We are free to "pick and choose" portions of a recovery program, but why do so when the entire program has been shown to work as it's described.

I was told early on in my recovery that "Fred's program doesn't work. Why not try our program, which does?"


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Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA
A lot of A.A.s don't incorporate the Steps into their lives. They are the ones who come to meetings complaining about the problems and woes in their lives. We are free to "pick and choose" portions of a recovery program, but why do so when the entire program has been shown to work as it's described.

"half measures availed us nothing...."

This is true of MB just as it is with AA. What I do on MB is the same thing I do in AA, I look for those who have great marriages and find out how they did it. In every instance it is because they actually used the program. I have never met a person who had a great recovery in AA who only did half the steps or no steps.

The most tragic mistake I see here is one you alluded to in your post. We all know of AA members who simply quit drinking and never work the program. They are dry drunks. It is the same with MB; we have folks who are in marriages where the affair might have ended but that is where the marital recovery STOPPED. As a result, the marriage never recovers.


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Sexymammabear, while it is possible that there is a circumstance of some sort that would make me more vulnerable to an affair than I've already experienced, I'm still confident my EPs would hold.

It's interesting that OH, ML and I have all done our time in the "playpen" (love that term BTW). It's hard to believe this type of thing would be training for marriage.

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Originally Posted by Tabby1
Sexymammabear, while it is possible that there is a circumstance of some sort that would make me more vulnerable to an affair than I've already experienced, I'm still confident my EPs would hold.


Tabby, I hope you don't think I was challenging you on that. I hadn't read your posts until after I posted.

I was one of those poeple who naturally had EPs in place. I didn't have to think about it or plan them out. But once the conditions of my life changed drastically enough, I felt there was nothing left to protect.

I was OBVIOUSLY wrong!

If I had purposed to have EPs, instead of just having them "naturally", they would have stayed in place when I needed them most.


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Originally Posted by rprynne
This question sort of jumped out at me from another thread and I just wondered what others opinions were.

I was struck by the fact that many people seem to be using MB to try to recover their M, but they pick and choose which principles of the MB model they agree with.

For example, Harley/MB says all people are vulnerable to having an A. Yet many people claim that they themselves would never be vulnerable. I don't doubt the sincerity of their belief, but I don't see how they can hold that opinion and expect MB to "work" in recovering their M. Wouldn't maintaining that belief be an automatic barrier to intimacy/romantic love, which Harley/MB says is key to a happy marriage.

I've explained this before. A betrayed spouse most likely CAN NOT admit they would EVER do such a thing. The reason is they know how BAD it hurts on the receiving end. It is for that reason alone that most BS say they WOULD NEVER have had an A. Of course once the pain has been inflicted on you that would be your response. To NEVER cause another human being that much pain. For them to look deeper into their souls and think about life pre-DDAY, they more than likely had somewhat questionable barriers and it was remotely possible for them to get sucked in. Once they are the BS though, they are the victim. They are on the high horse. "I WOULD NEVER DO THAT!" "WAYNERDS" "WAYTURDS" They despise waywards and claim they could never sink that low. Its all a defense mechanism. To see yourself as a possible wayward, gives you some amount of impathy and I think aids in the healing process. JMHO DUDE

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Tabby, unlike yourself, most people who believe they could never do that, don't have EP's in place because of that belief. You and I can say it won't happen because we DO have EP's in place. And believe me, I DO. I was one of those who used to say I would never do it and practiced loose boundaries. For example, I would go to lunch and go shopping every Monday for years with our Ops manager, under the guise of discussing my account plans. When our relationship starting crossing new territory into the realm of the personal, I backed off real quick and ended those lunch sessions. I don't play that game anymore.

The ones who will have trouble are the ones who believe they are not vulnerable and as such, have NO EP's in place. They engage in risky behavior which leaves them vulnerable. They proclaim they can be "trusted" while they engage in risky behavior, when it is becuase of that behavior that they shouldn't be trusted. It is the drunk driver who swears "I AM A GREAT DRUNK DRIVER! TRUST ME!" laugh


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And to the other question, I followed not one Harly principle. NOT ONE! I had an RA. I got my own APT. I told her family off and did nuclear exposure AFTER THE A ENDED. Yet, here I am w/ my fwxw and I back together like the early days??!! IDK I imagine part of it is luck/karma/God, the other is I'm really hot and have cool sports cars!! hehe I'm kidding. DUDE

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Tabby, unlike yourself, most people who believe they could never do that, don't have EP's in place because of that belief. You and I can say it won't happen because we DO have EP's in place. And believe me, I DO. I was one of those who used to say I would never do it and practiced loose boundaries. For example, I would go to lunch and go shopping every Monday for years with our Ops manager, under the guise of discussing my account plans. When our relationship starting crossing new territory into the realm of the personal, I backed off real quick and ended those lunch sessions. I don't play that game anymore.

The ones who will have trouble are the ones who believe they are not vulnerable and as such, have NO EP's in place. They engage in risky behavior which leaves them vulnerable. They proclaim they can be "trusted" while they engage in risky behavior, when it is becuase of that behavior that they shouldn't be trusted. It is the drunk driver who swears "I AM GREAT DRUNK DRIVER!" laugh

You had all that control but were WASTED ALL THE TIME??! Seriously? DUDE

Oops reread..I'm w/ ya! DUDE

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Originally Posted by Dude007
[A betrayed spouse most likely CAN NOT admit they would EVER do such a thing.

DUH! You posted this just after TWO betrayed spouses said they could do such a thing! crazy


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Dude007
[A betrayed spouse most likely CAN NOT admit they would EVER do such a thing.

DUH! You posted this just after TWO betrayed spouses said they could do such a thing! crazy

"most likely"

Please re-read? DUDE

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