BSs can weigh in, too. I'd like to hear descriptions of the very first contact with the affair partner; the first words, emails, phone calls, conversations, etc. I am particularly interested in those who "fell into" an affair before you knew what was happening. Maybe you never intended to have an affair, but looking back you realize you were not careful enough and found yourself where you never thought you'd be.

Did you think the communication or relationship was innocent? At the time you first began talking with the AP, would you have described your communication as harmless and your intentions pure?

If you are recovered and a "former wayward", what have you changed in how you interact with the opposite sex to avoid falling into the same trap? What boundaries do you now have that were weak or non-existent before? Do you employ Extraordinary Precautions and what are they, specifically in your dealings with the opposite sex?

Hi Ottert:

So, that's long, but that's my story.

I've told this story so many times but I'll tell it again, mainly because ottert you have come in for some bashing on here regarding your W's seemingly "non affair" which I am convinced would have become a real affair if you hadn't stopped it.

My old HS b/f rang me out of the blue to ask if I was going to an old mutual friend's funeral. He knew where I worked because I had met him one day outside the front doors about five years before and I had said "this is where I work." He'd taken the chance I still worked there and I did.

He asked if I wanted to go to it with him. I said ok. I asked if his wife was going to be there and he said "no, she didn't really know him (the mutual friend).

I admit I was looking forward to seeing him, but also to seeing other old friends from 30 years before.

I told my H that "X" had asked me to go with him to the funeral and he said that was ok but I could tell he wasn't that thrilled with the idea. I chose to ignore that.

I didn't intend to have an A. Yes, I wanted to see the old b/f again for old times sake but nothing more.

At the funeral I spoke to many old friends and certainly didn't spend all my time with the old b/f. However, I could feel sledge hammer feelings inside every time he looked at me.

On the way home we stopped for a drink in a very public area of our own neighbourhood. We talked about old times, why we hadn't married each other etc etc (all dangerous talk but at that time I had no idea about A's. It just seemed talking about the past was something you did with old flames).

When he dropped me home he said we should meet for lunch one day. I said ok, why not (thinking he meant it politely and if he did mean it he meant sometime in the next 6 months or something).

On the Monday morning following the funeral I got an email from him asking to meet for lunch that week. My first reaction was "Sh**". Then I replied saying "ok, bad idea but when?"

We met for lunch on the Thursday of that week. I couldn't eat, I was so nervous and guilty. I went back to the office thinking that was it, I wouldn't see him again and no harm done.

But of course that wasn't it. Another lunch, this time with a kiss goodbye at the end. Then another lunch, but this time ending with a stop in a parking spot and more kissing. This went on for three months - lunches and kissing. Then, three months later, our planned trip to Italy came up and we were away for three weeks. I emailed the OM every day from Italy and when I came home we had sex for the first time.

Okay, what boundaries do I have now. I have never had a problem with boundaries with the opposite sex. Men scare me a little and I am shy with them. I've never been approached by men in "that" way. There's something about me that warns them off. Always has been. I've also always been very "married". I'm also 55 and I think "invisible" to men.

I am far more careful with email correspondence with male colleagues. I never use wording that could be construed as flirting. My boundary was completely lacking when it came to old flames. I was totally naive.

Sorry to be long-winded, but it's hard for me to write a little about this without writing a lot. I had this story up on the MB board previously, before the Oct'09 server crash, but it got obliterated then:

The person who became my OW was someone whom my wife met when they started coming to our church. A few months after that, she started singing on the vocal team, where I was a singer. For 2 years, she never turned my head, and I wasn't even much impressed with her. She struck me as sort of whiny at times, at other times was an enthusiastic singer, but not a great voice -- too shrill for my tastes. Anyway, for 2 yrs, I never even gave her a second thought. I don't even recall the first time I met her & her husband. We interacted with them socially like, maybe twice the whole time.

Mind you, I'd been such a boy scout my entire life, I would've sworn up & down that I'D never get into anything like an affair. If you'd suggested the notion, I'd have laughed in your face.

One day late summer '08, she asked me if I'd sing a duet with her for a church service. We stayed late after rehearsal several times to practice it. She started asking me for advice on parenting, because her daughter had some social issues, whereas everyone always complimented my wife & me for how well-behaved our children were. To answer one of your questions, yes, at that time, my intentions were pure, and I deemed our communications to be harmless.

As we talked about parenting occasionally over a few weeks, at one point I mentioned something to the effect that "it's important for parents to be on the same page" regarding their children, i.e., to agree together & present a united front on matters such as discipline, etc. And that's when she started letting on that she & her husband weren't always on the same page.

In retrospect, I know that that should've been a big, friggin' red flag for me right there. But I continued to meet with her to sing, continued to engage her in conversation, and we started meeting to sing alone (without the instrumentalists or other vocalists), and she started spilling more & more info, and I was being empathetic, an ear she could talk to...

...BUT I have to make clear that I didn't "fall" into this affair or get drawn out on the slippery slope. Rather, I realize that CHOSE to put my foot out there, because I had these unrealized emotional needs for conversation (which our conversations satisfied), for recreational companionship (which our working on music together satisfied), and I really liked the feeling that this person felt she NEEDED to talk to me, NEEDED me to vent to -- basically I had this huge need to feel needed!

And as re: my wife, she & I had always been so self-sufficient; my job had me away from home a lot, lousy hours, long commute, some travel; and her career was taking off, and she was devoted to our kids, and was getting satisfaction from teaching Sunday School, and although we always liked each other, almost never had major arguments or fights, it was like we were putting our M on auto-pilot at times. I sort of felt like she didn't really need me all that much. We really didn't express ourselves well to one another, never complained too much to one another, so we just assumed things were fine. But we weren't in touch with each others' needs. In my case, I don't think I was fully in touch with my own needs. It was complacency, it was laziness on my part, but it really had as much or more to do with our own marriage, I think, more so than it had to do with this other woman.

So I kept meeting with OW, and one weeknight, I was at a regularly-scheduled church building committee meeting, & when I came out to my car that night after the meeting, I found a little note on my windshield, tucked under the wiper. It was from OW. Nothing flirty in the language itself -- just "Just wanted to say Hi!" and a smiley-face drawn on it. But just the fact of her writing me such a note & being brazen enough to put it on my car with her name underneath was a dead giveaway. Right then it occurred to me that this person was likely wanting me for more than music & conversation. I knew that, if not sooner, that was the moment I should've run like hell, told her husband, told my wife, shut it down. Part of me KNEW this wasn't good. BUT the other part of me was LOVING the feeling of being pursued, which was something I hadn't really felt in maybe 2 decades. And I decided to enjoy the feling of being pursued for a little while longer, confident that I could keep myself under control. Boy, was I wrong! From that point on, I was in an EA, and it gradually became more & more physical for 5 weeks or so, and [censored] another 5 weeks or so after that. Boy, did I learn how many boundaries I was capable of violating.

You don't know how many times I've wished I could go back in time to the time before that night when I held that damned note in my hands.

Re: how I've changed, well, for one, we never returned to that church after D-day. I have NC with the OW. We did several of the EPs, such as changing my work phone #, giving each other our passwords, changing e-mails, going through an intermediary to request "no contact" from the OW & her H. My wife & I waded through "Surviving an Affair" with a very good, Christian-focused marriage counselor who was keen on saving marriages & who put us onto principles in that book. W & I spent lots of time together, assessing each others' & our own needs and actually communicating to one another about them, and we have made a major effort to increase our undivided attention to one another.

As regards interaction with OPs, I'm never allowed to develop and 1-on-1 friendships with women. And my wife & I are determined that, when we get into activities like volunteering in church, where there are members of the opposite sex involved, we will do it together, not the way it was before (with her off teaching Sunday School and me off separately doing music).

But I think that while the EPs have been important & necessary, the main thing has been the efforts W & I have made at focusing on our own relationship & communication & face-time. If only W & I had had the sort of relationship 14 months ago that we do now, then I like to think there's a much better chance that I'd have reacted better to the red-flags & stop-signs that I ran through on the road to my affair.

What expensive knowledge this has been for my wife & me.

OW asked H to fix her computer several times. He was spending time at her house with her 2 kids helping with computer.
I sent son down to call him back up to the house. I went myself a couple of times. Then told H he could not longer do that.
He said I gave him nervous twitches cuz I am so jelous. Well I explained to him that had had an A already....
So, I was out of town teaching and while away OW and her mom invited H to lunch and dinner to keep him company. Yeah.
Then...he was hooked I guess. It was a mother-daughter concerted effort.
Humans are complex, it is hard to explain what clicks in their brains.
My H is wayward to the core.
Just so you know:
When I met him ( I was only 24) he told me he was involved with a lesbian who fell for him (I guess she was not lesbian after all) and who cut her veins for him after he left her. She was writing to him from the asylum and he was not writing her back. That should have clued me in. But he was too good looking and charming and me too young...I fell for him. Later on he told me other stories similar to the one above. He had left his 10 year girl friend many times for other lovers who he then ended up ditching only to go back to girl friend. He also admitted it was hard for him to stay faithful. And I married him. Not my fault for what he is doing, for the As he had on me...but boy, I was warned.
Looking back it could have not be otherwise..he had it in him...he is good looking beyond imagination he looks like an actor....and women have been around him constantly. One of them, in Dallas rang our bell in her bathing suit. She thought I was away and when she saw me open the door she said she very candidly that she thought I was in Europe....; But I got a great son out of this...it was worth it all!
Crazy.
Blessings

I would agree KiwiJ. Without Ottert's intervention, Mrs. O may have very well found herself in a real affair.

Ottert and the Mrs. are so very blessed that they were spared in that way.



Ottert, I don't know of any couple that really takes the time to sit down and evaluate EP's for their marriage until an event occurs that opens their eyes to the need. I'm sure there are a few out there, but they are few and far between. I'm so very grateful the Harley's have taught us how to protect each other in our marriage today with the help of EP's.

I know if I had not been so PRIDEFUL, I would have maintained boundaries that would have prevented my A. I don't believe any one FALLS in to an A, as PRIDE comes long before the fall!

I never really understood the "depth" of the verses in Luke 18:9-14 until after recovery from my adultery. Mercy is asked for from a position of humility. And oh, so much undeserved mercy have I received.

KiwiJ,

I know your story is very well-known and you've told it every which way possible, I'm sure. As was said by many when my W "ran you off" her now-nonexistent thread, you are among the most respected and revered of FWWs here. For you to say what you did, affirming what I have always believed about what happened with my W and her ex-lover, means the world to me. Thank you for taking the time to recount your story again.

I still regret that my W was not in a place to listen to your voice of wisdom. I don't blame you at all for washing your hands of it given her attitude when she came here, but I wish you two could have talked more. You of all people know the slippery slope she was on. She still doesn't get it.

She still does not get it? Wow. How can you stand it Ottert. Wow.

This is how my husbands cheating/affair started (this was 3 years ago and I suspect that is who he is with now)according to him...

She is his ex-wife. He said that she googled his name and found his work telephone number and began calling and emailing him. I also remember that one evening when he was coaching football he had me hold his phone. It rang and it was her; I didn't know it at the time, and she lied about who she was making up some name and saying she had the wrong number. Then my husbands work was going to send him to Tahoe for a conference. We planned on going together because it feel on our anniversary. But my job cut back on employees and I couldn't get the time off, so he went by himself.

He told me that he had mentioned to her that he had to go to the conference and she just showed up; which is hard to believe because there is more then one place to stay in Tahoe. How would she know where he was staying??

He spent the whole weekend with her and cheated. He immediately told me and said we were over. Apparently she had made plans for them to run away together. But once he came home, he couldn't leave. He later told me that he had found out she is a high class hooker; really! Nuts, huh?

Anyway, the background is that we have been married for 6 years,they were married for less than 3 months. She abused his daughter badly. She's more than 10 years younger than me and has big boobs, lol. Mine aren't small, but hers are giant; I guess he likes that. I've looked at her Myspace page and she now has a daughter, who looks almost identical to baby pics of my husbands 13 year old daughter. And this child is just about the right age to be from that weekend in Tahoe.

Yes we were spared the worst. Doesn't mean there wasn't real pain and real heartache, but I understand it could have been may times worse.


I think you're exactly right, tst. It is certainly the case with us. I am acutely aware of the need for EPs, whereas before I barely gave a thought to who my W spoke to, called on her cell, emailed, worked with, etc. I am also much more aware of my own thoughts and actions.


Would you be willing to expound on this and clarify what you mean, tst? I think I know, and if I'm right it certainly applies in our situation. Thanks.

I have been through this cheating business twice. In both marriages, I found that my WWs were big time takers, most likely NPD, as they met most of the criteria.
What I noiticed was that they had an inability to reciprocate in most areas and felt entitled to more attention, more time out, and more of the family's discretionary income.
After a while, it became exhausting to try to meet their voracious appetites for attention, entertainment and worldly goods.
So, they began getting their huge egos stroked by other men via clandestine meetings.
Soon, they were in love and able to convince themselves that I was a terrible spouse.
They consciously decided to have their appetites satisfied by the men they were meeting and to lie for extended periods of time. I have no doubt that all WS , at some point, decide it is okay to lie and cheat because they are entitled to more than their spouse.
If they did not believe that their lives were more important than their spouses', they would disclose the cheating so the spouses could make informed decisions as to how to have their own needs met.
There is a lot of grandiosity among WSs.

This is how my husbands cheating/affair started (this was 3 years ago and I suspect that is who he is with now)according to him...

She is his ex-wife. He said that she googled his name and found his work telephone number and began calling and emailing him. I also remember that one evening when he was coaching football he had me hold his phone. It rang and it was her; I didn't know it at the time, and she lied about who she was making up some name and saying she had the wrong number. Then my husbands work was going to send him to Tahoe for a conference. We planned on going together because it feel on our anniversary. But my job cut back on employees and I couldn't get the time off, so he went by himself.

He told me that he had mentioned to her that he had to go to the conference and she just showed up; which is hard to believe because there is more then one place to stay in Tahoe. How would she know where he was staying??

He spent the whole weekend with her and cheated. He immediately told me and said we were over. Apparently she had made plans for them to run away together. But once he came home, he couldn't leave. He later told me that he had found out she is a high class hooker; really! Nuts, huh?

Anyway, the background is that we have been married for 6 years,they were married for less than 3 months. She abused his daughter badly. She's more than 10 years younger than me and has big boobs, lol. Mine aren't small, but hers are giant; I guess he likes that. I've looked at her Myspace page and she now has a daughter, who looks almost identical to baby pics of my husbands 13 year old daughter. And this child is just about the right age to be from that weekend in Tahoe.

Zelmo, I agree with all you have said. Not that that means anything. I think these woman and men who cheat have many character flaws and have chosen to live thier lives for themselves (even before the cheating was accomplished or discovered) no matter who it hurts.

You are very wise, Bubbles.

No, she does not. A big reason is her many sympathizers on this forum, as well as some family and friends, who directly and indirectly have told her that secretly emailing an ex-lover for four days behind her husband's back is no big deal, a gnat's sneeze, a "paper cut." Her mother has even said she is entitled to privacy and that she should be able to talk to an ex-boyfriend or anyone else and it's none of my business unless MrsO wants to reveal it to me.

I stand it because it is the only way to recover my marriage. It is and always will be difficult to feel safe as long as MrsO refuses to acknowledge how painful this was for me and how dangerous her actions were. Also, MrsO is making an effort to rebuild our marriage. We attended MB weekend and are working through the courses.

I am glad you are working toward recovery Ottert. I guess we all have stuff we have to feel fearful and uncomfortable about in life. For a while.

Is it her pride or just she does not understand how you felt or is it that she cannot or will not care for YOUR FEELINGS?

I would pretend to have a FB affair of your own (set up two fake accounts) and let her find out so she sees how it feels to be on the recieving end of an emotional affair.

I cannot imagine how painful her lack of empathy and responsibility must be for you, Ottert.It must be terribly scary, as well, sine failure to acknowledge the cheating means she is at risk of repeating.

Yes. I would INCREASE her empathy by somehow putting herself in the exact position you were in (without actually coming out and having a real affair) Sometimes you gotta give em a taste of thier own medicine to break thru that blindness and the "crusts" on thier eyes.

A manipulative and incorrect slant on what people have actually said Ottert. Still I guess it serves your purposes. Instead of focussing on this, how about focussing on rebuilding the love in your marriage?

I don't believe anyone has said this was not a dangerous thing for your wife to be doing. It certainly could have led to a full blown affair if you didn't catch it when you did.

tst was a very loving, caring, attentive, giving husband pre-affair. For my entire marriage (minus the 9 months of affairland), I have felt I had one of the best husbands on earth. tst was/is also an incredible father to our children (excluding the 9 months of affairland).

I get very aggravated with the bashing of FWS. tst didn't have "many character flaws" throughout our marriage. He was a good man. He is a good man today. He is not defined by his affair, and his affair does not negate the 25-year history we have together.

And we are not unique. I see BS's here all the time in utter shock and devastation because their WS was a wonderful spouse pre-affair.

Did you add this for more drama?

No one here would support your MIL's attitude Ottert.

So why have you started this thread, which attacks her, ottert? She is making an effort to rebuild, and you have said elsewhere how much improved your marriage is today, with Dr Harley's (and I think Kim's) direct help.

Why, if this improvement is so evident, are you publicly rehashing this lost-standing grievance you have had with her?

I recall some people blew it off as no big deal.

His wife clearly has.

All of the above.


Thanks for the support but I won't be doing this. Tempted? Yes! I am going to pray that her conscience will somehow be pricked some day and the realization will hit her. Not likely, though.

Is this the approach you take in your own marriage...give him a taste of his own medicine?

Has that proven to be a successful approach?

Has it created the intimate, passionate, caring marriage you desire?

If you cant understand cheating
You will risk it repeating
Put your marriage in the dumps
While your ego get some pumps

Your heart is with another
And your spouse you would gladly smother
To be with your new love
Your family you would shove

Never will you be forgiven
Until you can see what you have been given
And what you nearly ruined
I hope it will be sooooon!

The hurt you have wrought
Will follow and damage every thought
Until you are living in blindness
Why not get back to some kindness

Face the truth every day
Face the truth every way
Dont lie anymore
Take your spouse and tell them more

Ask forgiveness for your sins
Dont continue to be so dim!
Your actions hurt like loss of limb,
But you think it is tiny like a pin.

Smash and destroy your precious marriage
Forget that you once pushed a baby carriage
You loved your spouse a long time ago
Now you are acting like a big DODO.

Am I the only one here who finds this thread extremely painful to follow? I've taken to just marking it read...

Yeah, you are the only one, Fred. You are ever the individualist.

SMB, well now that you mention it, yes I did do that. It did solve our issues. Just because you give them a taste of thier own medicine does not mean you have to be mean, abusive selfish or unpleasant about it.

You can give them this TASTE in a TASTEFUL wonderful clear and kind way. Do you see this? This is exactly what I did.

{{{{Fred}}}}

No, you are not the only one. IMO it was an insensitive thread topic that risks causing many BS's here a great deal of pain and triggering.

Not terribly dramatic, IMO. But, it is good info as it may show your WW's mindset and where she gets her values on this subject.
Apparently her folks were okay with secret communications with exs. No surprise, then, that she feels the same.

SMB I want to add, that was merely ONE of the tactics I used to save my own marriage. One of MANY that worked to increase our love for one another and strengthen our marriage.

* It is not by any means the ONLY way!!!!!LOL!!!!

That approach is deceitful and not a great foundation for a marriage, especially one being REBUILT.

Ottert, I'm glad you see the flaws in that approach...to your marriage and to yourself.

SMB you do not understand what I was saying. You dont even understand. I would never be decietful.

I push people to THINK . Of ALL THE OPTIONS

OUTSIDE THE BOX.

If you can learn to think outside the box, then you can manage a marriage (which is very very complex) very well. So both people are happy!

SEE SMB.....SAY WHAT YOU WANT.... YOU ARE NOT GETTING ME DOWN TODAY!

It is nice that people can think of different options. Even if they say NO to some of them. It enlarges the mind to think of every possible option. And REFUSE some and GO WITH OTHERS and BRAINSTORM about others.

OPTIONS ARE GOOD!!!

I understood perfectly.

You suggested he make his wife think he is having an affair through FB.

That is deceitful.

MB is based on openness and honesty.





Yeah, that'll help them create a loving, intimate marriage.

It is painful for me to watch ottert invite people here to fan the flames of this argument between him and his wife. He did this before the board crashed, and his wife moved out for a while. They only just made it to the MB weekend in October. Since that weekend, and with the help of the coaching available on the private forum, the relationship between them has improved. It is not perfect, and Mrs Otter does not acknowledge that what she had was an EA, but the relationship is much improved, according to ottert in his recent posts.

I recognise your dismay, ottert, that your wife still does not see her behaviour over the emailing as unacceptable and dangerous. I agree that if she does not see the danger in what she did, she might do it again. Conversely, though, she might never do anything like it again because she is learning from Dr Harley NOT to be the source of her spouse's unhappiness.

She is still learning from Dr Harley, as are you (I hope) ottert, and it is disloyal and, I should imagine, hurtful for you to seek public condemnation of your wife, behind her back, at this critical time.

I see no disloyalty. Simply a request for some validation re his perception of what his wife did, in the face of her repeatedly avoiding responsibility.
Many BSs need support and validation in the aftermath of affair trauma.

Bubble, my intent has never been to get you down.

But when you are giving poor advice, and advising someone to set up fake FB accounts and pretend to have an affair IS poor advice, I will certainly speak up and say so. When I give poor advice, I would hope someone would speak up and redirect the poster.

SMB this is the last time I will respond to you.

Do you see me trying to toss out ideas, some are good, and some are bad. But at least I am trying for solutions while all you try and do is slam me.

Ottert is an intelligent adult and will do only what is of benefit. He can handle some crazy brainstorming. Even though you cannot.

You are very limited in your thinking SMB and I think if you liked me more and did not hate me for being childless, that you would understand that I am tossing out ideas and NOT TRYING TO BE THE MORAL POLICE!!!!!

I am not Jesus, there is only one that can claim that honor.

I believe you, smb. I think tst was and is a good man who did something terrible, which he regrets and for which he has made amends. I didn't mean for this thread to be a vehicle for bashing him or other WSs and I'm sorry it happened.

Can we please keep this thread to the questions in my original post? Please! That's all I wanted.

Geez, Bubbles, I really don't care if you have children or not. My goodness! That's as silly as my saying you don't like me because I have kids. Quit thinking everyone is against you. I am against your current advice on this thread.

When I post here, my concern is for the MARRIAGES and what will help them be rebuilt. If advice is given that I believe will be HARMFUL, I will say so.

Ottert spent a lot of time and money on learning MB. If advice, from you or anyone else, encourages him to do something that takes him off the narrow path of working an MB recovery, I will most assuredly speak up.

Ottert, my biggest concern about this thread topic is the harm it can do to freshly wounded BS's.

Reading post after post about how affairs started is kind of like rubbing salt into the gaping open wounds of our newly BS's. It is stomach turning to read those kind of posts, and it is a topic you would generally find on TOW started by OW.

I think you would better serve your marital recovery by posting about how YOU are working on changing YOURSELF in your day-to-day interaction with your wife. Seeking advice on how to better meet ENs, or to brainstorm finding UA and how to spend it, or asking about whether certain behavior/words would be considered an LB...I think that would serve your recovery efforts much more effectively. I'm not saying you can't vent your frustration here, but from my own personal experience, I learned it was much more helpful for me, our marriage, and for tst if I did NOT vent here much. I know some of my rants were very hurtful to tst when he read them. Yes, he knew he deserved them. But dishing out what is DESERVED isn't always productive, helpful, or healing.

One of the outstanding features of this board is that in the main, people do not "toss out ideas", some good and some bad. They do not go in for "crazy brainstorming". They do not attack other posters for "limited thinking" when those posters suggest that only MB advice be given on this MB board. They give advice based on the MB principles and advice that Dr Harley gives.

This board is MarriageBuilders and it exists for the purpose of building marriages. Do you see MB-based advice as "TRYING TO BE THE MORAL POLICE!!!!!"? Why, if so?

Your suggestion that smb dislikes you because you are childless is baffling. I don't understand the reason for hysterical tone of your post.

Yes, we have to be careful not to become addicts ourselves. Addicted to our own pain, anger and desperation..and our spouses.
We have to be above that and work on recovering ourselves.
blessing

I have done nothing behind her back. She is in this room with me at this moment, knows I'm posting on MB, and checks my posts here every day or two. I am hiding nothing from her. I did not invite anyone to attack my wife. The rabble rousers found their way here on their own. I started this thread to see if it would confirm my beliefs on how many affairs start, and thanks to OurHouse, KiwiJ, GloveOil, atena, EAM, and tst, I was successful.

Does a WS's failure to acknowledge cheating impact the possibility of reconciliation? It would seem to?

I think that your reply is disingenuous, and I think you know it is.

I think you don't like the way this thread has turned into an attack on you.

I don't believe I've ranted about MrsO. In response to a few posters, I have referenced our situation and some of my continued frustrations.

As for posting about what I'm doing and seeking advice to recover myself and my marriage, I do this every week when I return the survey to Dr. Harley and when I talk with Kim on the phone. You've seen in the short span of this thread the kind of advice I get here. I didn't ask for advice on this thread, though some have given it unsolicited. I asked specific questions which required only a recounting of events, not advice.

I think the way affairs start is really quite simple, although you will hear a lot of detailed descriptions of individual paths. But, in essence, a WS decides that he or she wants to cheat and , then, does so. Some hide their intentions from themselves better than others, alluding to chance encounters or a perfect storm of circumstances etc.

Again, I got what I sought in the first 10 posts of this thread. Thank you all very much.

Perhaps we can lock this thread, then?

It is fine for a BS to ask this question. It is understandable, in my opinion, for a BS to doubt the commitment of a WS who does not "get it", and to be dubious about ever achieving a successful recovery.

However, I don't like the way you (ottert) disguised your misgivings about your wife's attitude in a seemingly simple question about how affairs start. That is what I refer to as disingenuous. I think you were talking about your own worries all along, and also trying to manipulate posters into supporting you without telling them of the advice you are receiving from the coaching centre about your own situation. I suspect that this advice is not entirely supportive of your position of wanting your wife to admit to an EA, hence you seek that support here.

Is Dr Harley insisting that your wife admit to an EA before recovery is possible?

I don't believe you have ranted about Mrs. O. This thread certainly opened the door up for her to be ranted about though. It may not have been your intention, but it happened anyway.

Do you understand my point about how hurtful this thread topic could be to new BS's? I didn't see you address that.

Excellent! Thread closed.