** Nellie1 ** - Marriage Builders® Forums

I think you may want to address your comments to me here, instead of on C2M's thread.

What else would you like to say to me?

I am listening.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Nellie ....

My son is bipolar. He is 16. He is also ADHD. He was born addicted to heroin. He is adopted. He was abandoned by his parents. He suffered serious dental decay as an infant due to bottles filled with applejuice at bedtime.

Should I lower the bar for him? Would that make it easier for him to survive once he leaves this family and tries to make it on his own?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Nellie ... I would like to have a conversation with you please.

Sorry, I didn't see this thread earlier.

I'm not quite sure what this thread has to do with c2m's pain, but -

I have a child with motor and language delays. Should I have signed her up to play soccer with "regualr" kids when she was five? I don't think so -but she is very happy playing soccer on her special needs team.

One's expectations should be based on the individual's capabilities and interests, not on what someone defines as "normal."

I am asking you to share with me what your thoughts are about what I posted to C2M.

I could not tell if your major objection was to my philosophical point of view or to my approach.

I am interested in hearing what you have to say to me.

Thanks.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Both, actually.

I have a problem with people "accusing" victims of being victims - there is nothing shameful about being a victim. I can not even imagine the depth of c2m's physical pain as well, and I think trivializing that is callous.

I realize that you were also betrayed, but I am not sure you can identify with the pain of abandonment. As someone whose H betrayed and deserted our family almost 4 years ago, I can say that the pain of the betrayal was NOTHING compared to the ongoing pain of the abandonment of our children and myself.

How does one accuse someone of being a victim? Isn't it self-evident in their own behaviour? The point is victimhood is a decision, a perception, a way of life. There are no victims, there is only life, we are all "victims", therefore no one is a victim, is a meaningless concept. There is only circumstance and response. If we assign victimhood to people as reason for their self-defeating behaviour then no one should have survived the nazi death camps, yet thousands of "victims" never gave up, and went on to build rich rewarding lives, after far greater "victimization" than anyone on this board can even imagine. They did not ask for special consideration, they did not go around bemoaning their circumstance, they grasped life and moved ahead. That is what this is all about nellie, attitude, focus. You are either a victim, or you look at life, everything in life, as an opportunity. Research has shown us a negative attitude is not healthy, and creates its own reality, likewise a positive attitude the opposite. Therefore the correct support for someone stuck in self-pity and victimhood, is too encourage them to reject it. That means you cannot validate the victimhood, not to be confused with offering a shoulder to cry on, or a helping hand up.

Those posters who feed c2m victimhood do her more harm than good, they help her stay stuck, that is what I hear pepperband saying, and I agree. I too have lurked here for some time, and watched this woman wallow in self-pity, ignoring those who try to help her, and gravitating to those who validate her victim status. This has been going on for over 1 year (maybe more for all I know), it is not doing her any good at all, and apparently a lot of harm. You also mentioned the great pain of abandonment. This poster was not abandoned, her H posted her quite a bit, and seemed actively involved in trying to find some kind of common ground with her. By her own admission in even these recent posts, he is supporting the family, interacting with the children, helping with her medical situation, and so forth, how does that constitute abandonment? They apparently have a lot of conflict throughout the marriage, I suppose that is why they are divorcing, but I don't see any abanbonment at all. I think maybe you are projecting your own circumstances on someone else. That may help you, but is not a good thing for c2m.

I agree that chronic pain is a tough way to go, but the patient understanding that, and having the appropriate medication should help minimize the depressive effects. She can't just talk herself out of the pain obviously, but she can realize it is temporary, and will improve, and try to work positively on her physical recovery, and not let it become the focus of her emotional recovery.

[ December 30, 2002, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]

And another thing (to jump right in here)...

C2M is SUICIDAL, and needs to get REAL HELP, not cyber help. I have written Steve Harley about this. These boards are not equipped to handle REAL life-threatening issues like these, in my opinion.

I liked what Pepperband wrote... although I completely understand what Nellie is saying too.

But I'll tell you -- there's BIG difference between a strong-willed woman with self-esteem who CHOOSES to not move on (Nellie) and a woman who is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damaged and CANNOT move on (C2M)... just my opinion - take it for what it's worth.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by new_beginning:


But I'll tell you -- there's BIG difference between a strong-willed woman with self-esteem who CHOOSES to not move on (Nellie) and a woman who is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damaged and CANNOT move on (C2M)... just my opinion - take it for what it's worth.<hr /></blockquote>as always Sheryl you are so very wise.

I could eaily be C2M, my self esteem has always been low, however I hope I am not the cryie, whinny, poster I was 2 yrs ago. But that is the point no matter how bad the sitituation there comes a time you have to move on & stop feeling sorry for yourself, get help, change meds, get more thearpy, do something, anything

and Nellie, I'm not quite 50 but close, I was the total SAHM, no job, no experince, I haven't even worked enough to draw Social Security

Nellie ... to trivialize someone's pain I would be saying what exactly?

I am not clear what words I wrote that were objectionable to you.

Thanks for your reply.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Can I jump in too?

The posts from LurkingAbout and new beginning are why I originally asked Pepperband to advise me about my posts to C2M. What do you both think about my posts to her--beneficial or harmful?

It never dawned on me to write SH--good idea new beginning!

I realized that with this being the holidays, boards such as this might be the only resource that some people have for a few days until drs are back in their offices. We all know that suicide statistics are higher during the holidays. I guess I figured that it was better to play it safe and post for a few days just in case. I still don't know if it's been beneficial or harmful--I guess time will tell.

Nellie1, I don't think anyone was trivializing C2M's pain, just trying to encourage her that there are better ways to deal with it that will bring her better results in her life. I think that is the responsible thing for us to do, especially those of us who know from experience.

I will not respond to LurkingAbout, as I am even more sure now than I was before that he is really SNL. That comment about how c2m has supposedly said that he is supporting the family is laughable - his lack of financial support is one of her major complaints.

Pepperband,

It was more that you completely ignored her physical pain, while accusing her of acting like a "victim."

I also am worried about c2m, and I agree with Sheryl that real-life help is necessary. I also think that better medical care for her physical pain is imperative, and wonder about possible side effects and interactions among her medications.

I do not think that anyone really "moves on." The effect of betrayal and desertion is something you carry with you forever, influencing all future behavior and relationships.

I have just now written Steve Harley again, and also "blown the whistle" (reported to the Mod's) a particular post she made where she says she wants to die.

This upsets me more than I can properly articulate.

YetAgain, I think you've done fine... it's not that... it just seems to me that this thing is so far beyond what can be offered by lay people... heck, even PROFESSIONALS, over the INTERNET. She needs a REAL LIVE PERSON to talk with... before she actually DOES do something to harm herself.

I agree about it being the holidays, but suicide hotlines are open. That would be FAR more appropriate, I would think.

You have a good heart YetAgain!

This is where an internet forum falls short, plain and simple. It's assumed that people who post here are genuine and mentally healthy (despite the infidelity which makes you "insane" for a bit) -- I think we've all seen that isn't always the case.

I think the best thing any of us can do is to lead this woman to GET HELP... not that she'll heed the advice... but for our own well-being (to know we've done all we can)... and maybe *someone* will get to her.

Oh and Nellie, if Lurking About is SNL, the writing has changed completely. I don't think so. But hey, I could be wrong, I often am.

[ December 31, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]

DEAR NELLIE ....

I also choose to ignore LA's post .... because ... MY purpose on this thread is NOT to discuss C2M ... but myself!

Nellie, you had the integrity to offer me criticism and I see that as a good thing! I am being given a gift by you ... a gift of a learning opportunity ... to learn something about myself. I am open to whatever you have to say. I am not argueing my philosophy vs yours ... but rather am trying to better understand what you found objectionable (because it is not exactly clear to me) so I can do a personal inventory and spiritual assessment.

I am still not clear which EXACT words or phrasing you found objectionable enough to write, "That is one of the most callous and cruel responses I have ever read on this board." I never said she was "acting like a victim" ... but "speaking as a victim" .... these phrases are very different (to me) ..... is this the phrasing you were refering to? If not ... PLEASE help me figure out which EXACT words I wrote that were callous and cruel ... and put those exact words in quotes so I will better be able to take inventory.

I find that people such as yourself, someone who has the guts to call me on my defects .... VERY HELPFUL.

Thanks again.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ December 31, 2002, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Excuse me??????? Who in the h*** do you think you are? I don't care if you respond to my post or not, it was for c2m benefit, not yours. Looks like you are just trying to divert attention from your own questionable, and in my opinion hurtful advice (to c2m). Apparently you don't like people disagreeing with you, first pepperband, now me. So I see, easier to accuse anyone disagreeing with you of something, than change your mind. Sheesh, some people. I agree sheryl, just because someone tries to reason about stuff, does not make them SNL (or some other disparaging person du jour). I did find some of his stuff makes sense, but I think most rational thinking people probably do. Nellie seems to have issues of her own, some posters will do anything to justify there projecting on to others... But maybe this is an opportunity, I can go tell my H our problems are solved, I am really a man and can't remain married to him, gee nellie thanks ever so much.

In the meantime let's try and give c2m real help, not push our own agendas on her.

[ December 31, 2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]

Lurking ... PLEASE take this to a new thread ...I am trying to get Nellie to help me ... and your sidebar is distracting.

I want Nellie to talk to me.... about me!

Thanks

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ December 31, 2002, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Is ok, I am done, she just ruffled my feathers and I thought she need to be set straight so as to not interfere with the help to c2m. Frankly I have no intention of talking to her again at any time, and should not have let her get under my skin this time. I can usually just ignore aggressive people, but it is harder when they make personal attacks, sorry for the diversion, lurker has left the building <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Lurking About made some exceptionally good points that are simply too good to be brushed aside with silly diversions like this. [could be "SNL"] Anyone who read SNL would know right off it's not him. Even so, how in the world would that negate the points she made?

This attempt to assign authorship to SNL does nothing to answer the excellent points she made and only serves to DIVERT attention away from the message. But maybe that WAS the point? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Waaaaaaaaa

I wanna talk about me!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Color me confused, but why are you only zeroing in on LA's post and not the many others on this thread? Don't get it.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

ML .... I have (had) a specific purpose in mind ... and the thread is now hijacked to a Nellie vs Pepper ... and that is NOT NOT NOT my intent. Lurking seemed to be "taking my side" which is NOT NOT NOT what I want. I am asking for clarification from one person .... Nellie. I do not want Nellie to be on the defensive when I talk to her.

Thanks for asking.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I understand. Sorry for the interference!

WARNING:
What I am about to say will NOT be recieved well by many. C2M, you may want to choose NOT to read what I am about to write:

Although this login shows that I've only been around a few motnths, the truth is I have another identity, and have been here almost 2 years.

I watched SNL appear, listened (and participated in) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> many, MANY of his diatribes throughout the turmoil of his A/pending Div. until he was kicked off for becoming verbally (in writing) abusive to his S. (As I recall, so was Thinker/C2M)

In all my listening, trying to become discrimanting (sp?), I came to the conclussion that his w (Thinker) DOES like to pose as a victim! zIt has served her well during their 20+ yr marraige, and she wears it like some kind of "Badge". I was coming to the conclussion that SNL had finally had enough, thus triggering the A.

Please do not misunderstand me. Does ANYBODY deserve to be treated like this? OF COURSE NOT! BUT, we know LITTEL of the dynamic of this M, this couple, who apparently got along in this manner for most of thier M. Thier "dance" -if you will was destructive and flawed. SNL had enough. He was unhappy, felt manipulated and with unmet EN's.

Thinker, on the other hand, was used to using her "Woe is me" manipulations to control her M, her children and her H.

This is IN NO WAY a justification of his A. But just my way of reasoning why I believe he came to inter into one, and why she is so stuck on it, and will not - CANNOT move on.

So, while I'm "fixing" something I know littel about: How about this? ALL of thier children are grown (18 and over). How many of them are working and self-supporting? If any of them are living at home, WHY are they not paying rent/contributing to the household to help thier mother with some ofthe bills? Even the children helping pay for the food they eat sounds like it would go a long way. They are there cause they want to be. SNL is OUT cause he wants to be. To continue to believe HE should be/will pay for all C2M's bills is unrealistic and naive on her part.

To continually invite him over for dinners & "fun family" times is also naive of her, thinking that he will suddenly "snap back" to his former life/mentality (I believe this is why she does it). Believing that if he participates with them, he will become guilt-ridden, and want to come home and be the "dutiful H " once again.

As I stated at the start, this is MY oppinion only but based on months and moths of reading BOTH of thier posts on here. If anyone who has not been here that long has anything to respond to me, please HOLD your comments until you have read a couple hundred of thier posts on MB. T o us and to each other.

This post is IN NO WAY and attempt to help OR attact C2M. I feel she does not really want help (btw - I also do not believe she is suicidal, just manipualtive). This post is for the clarification and understanding to all those "younger" posters who think they are helping C2M. Pepper's advice is the best I've read so far that could "help" C2M.

Please do not attempt to flame me, as I will not respond to it.

Regards.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Nellie ... I am so sorry this turned out this way .....

sheesh!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I agree!!! Good grief...can't they see... this thread in not even ABOUT Thinker.... aka C2M or SNL...HENSE, the NEW thread!

This is between Pepper and Nellie. I for one sorta wanted to see where it was going! This train has jumped the track!

[ December 31, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]

Sorry about that Pepperband! Is it too late to get back on track? Can that be done here or should we start a new thread?

Pepperband, even the way you are handling this runaway thread is teaching me--so thank you!

I'm at a loss as to what to do to do "un-do" my part in the hijack.

This IS about you now Pepperband, as it should have been from the start. But, sorry, first I think that we need your help to do that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And it seemed such a simple request when you started this thread, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'll live ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

One of my patients just brought me a 2 pound box of See's candy ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm getting "high".

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Well, I guess an apology is in order, Pepperband.

Sorry for my part in the highjack.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />One of my patients just brought me a 2 pound box of See's candy <hr /></blockquote>May I ask (I mean, since the thread is highjacked already <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )...what is See's candy?

I've never heard of that in my area of the United States <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> which is about as far away from your area as you can get! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ December 31, 2002, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]

Gee, I went to work and when I came back the thread had about doubled in length.

Pepperband,

Unfortunately, I see that a couple of other posters have managed to be far more callous and cruel toward c2m, and in their case, it appears to be fully intentional.

In addition to the "victim" comments, what I objected to in your posts were comments like,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> A voice filled with appreciation and gratitude for the good things in life?<hr /></blockquote>I didn't get the impression that c2m sees much good in life, which is understandable. I do not think that telling someone who is miserable that they should appreciate the good in life is very helpful. My sister once said, about a year after her son was murdered, that one has to try to appreciate what little good there is in life, because there is so much pain. I thought at the time that that was a kind of negative spin on things, but I have come to believe that there is a lot of truth in it. There really is far more pain than pleasure in life for many people, and in cases where the person is suffering from unremitting physical pain, that is even more the case.

I have always been annoyed when I see people using the word "victim" in a pejorative sense. One of the definitions at http://www.m-w.com is <blockquote>quote:<hr />one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment <hr /></blockquote>, which I think describes c2m quite well. None of the definitions implies in any way that being a victim is in any way the victim's fault. Being a victim, speaking as a victim, acting as a victim - none of these should imply in any way that the victim is at fault, or less strong in character.

C2M has been treated horribly. She has been assaulted by her H. She appears to be in excrutiating pain and suicidal. I think she needs support (and medical care), not a pep talk - and anything less is not merely unhelpful, but very harmful.

[ December 31, 2002, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]

This is See's Candy ...... yummmmm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ December 31, 2002, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Nellie***

Thanks for answering my question! I do appreciate your response.

I will think about your comment, and ask you more questions (if I need to).

Again, thanks.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ December 31, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

double post ... must be the chocolates! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ December 31, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

I just want to say that Susan is P's pet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

She got to highjack, and I didn't. Well, actually, I *did* but I guess I didn't ask about CHOCOLATE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> so I was bad.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

PS: This isn't a highjack, it's just being silly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

***Sheryl*** .... if you're silly .... you get a chocolate for punishment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And unlike SOME people <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> , I ***know*** what See's candy is, and I love them suckers - P'nut Butter, yuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmy!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks Pep! Love chocolate!! Happy New Year!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My sister once said, about a year after her son was murdered, that one has to try to appreciate what little good there is in life, because there is so much pain. I thought at the time that that was a kind of negative spin on things, but I have come to believe that there is a lot of truth in it.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly...and the more pain there is, the more important to look for what is good, rather than simply losing your self to pain. When someone has oppressed and victimized you, there is a time to grieve, but there is also a time to decide to overcome. And, I hope that with time and help, C2M will get to that point.

Kathi

Kathi **

I agree .... there is a time for every season... under Heaven.

Pepper/chocolate/face

Yikes...excuse me for asking. I should not have looked. I started two days ago counting my Weight Watcher's points. Last Christmas I had lost 19 pounds. During the year, I managed to find 10 of them.

No need to wait until New Year's to start a resolution. I am a work in progress every day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ah, Sheryl, sorry to highjack the thread...but it was already gone anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm off to my New Year's party with special friends.I am happy and blessed to have my MB friends too! Happy New Year <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pass me a caramel filled dark chocolate please... and NOT one that you have squeezed to see what is inside!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ December 31, 2002, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]

Wow this thread reminisces from the type we had last year....... a lot learned here in between the See's candy!

Pepper, I respect and understand your need to hear from Nellie. Just wanted to interject a thought for 2 reasons:

1. To give my 2 cents since I have spoken to both SNL & C2m in the past (not recently though but will try again).

2. To ask what you and other thought based on my 2 cents worth.

here goes:

I know that when I spoke to both of them often C2m would make the initial call. It was mostly in 2001 and I needed help just like they did so it was a 2 way street. Funny though, I spent more time talking with SNL. C2m talked some but relinquished the phone more to her H for most of the calls. Let's say that one time I was on the phone with them for 3 hours most of it with SNL. Both knew what the entire conversation was about.

What I learned was that C2m like many of us needs reassurance. In her case a lot of it. Her father's death, mother's sickness, her surgery, I believe daughter's car accident, MILs home repair issues and health along with her daughter's surgery and SNL's surgery plus other misc family issues......all of which happened since 2001 til now is really quite a bit for anyone to handle. Of course we all have issues here but when you put it down on paper......we all deal with more than a person should.

I think that is what is overwhelming for many, including C2m. I know what suicidal feels like. My in-laws have used it as a weapon of choice for years (as a threat but not to be taken lightly)..... last year I myself had depression bouts where that thought became overwhelming and believe it or not, both C2m and SNL helped me out of some of those bouts.

Point here is that both are victims and can choose to continue to be a victim with continued abuse or heal from that state and not allow more abuse to be dumped on them.

SNL has turned into the person he protested against here. But that is his choice. C2m is regressing and she does not like her current choices. She must face reality and learn how to better her future. It is hard when a women who has lived most of her life for her family feels abandoned. Even with her children around her she probably still feels as such. I know I did, then I had to realize that I had a little one here that loved and needed me.

It took a long while and maybe the longer one is married, the longer it takes...... but eventually I did get over my H and my need to cling onto him. C2m needs to get to that place. She will, she just needs time and help.

Again, reassurance seems to be one of her primary needs. It is for me too.

JMHO,
L.

Happy New Year Orchid!

Thanks for the extra info about the situation. I, too, can relate to much of it.

Do you think C2M is suicidal? Severely depressed? Stuck? How do you think we can help?

Just an opinion--I think snl cares more than he lets on, but doesn't know what to do at this point. If he really wanted to be rid of C2M, fulfilling his financial obligations would certainly get that ball rolling. Also, he hasn't totally abandoned her, but right now C2M needs more than any one person can give. I suspect that apart from the financial issues, snl may be doing more than C2M can see right now but not putting his efforts where they would do the most good. What do you think?

How can we help them both? CAN we help them?

Hi Pepper, Nellie and YetAgain,

Pepper, please understand that I don't mean to hi-jack your thread but I did want to address YA's question. Also, I think answering here vs c2m's thread may be a better forum.

I will wait until you give the green light before I respond to Yet Again.

Thanks,
L.

gentle nudge..... up!

Post away ... I am done with the Nellie convo.

enjoy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mahalo Pepper!

Yet Again, in response to your questions:

1. C2m Suicidal? No I don't think so. She is a giver by nature and would feel to guilty about the person who would find her and have to clean up. Like many of us would think. Remember Tevy's wife on Fiddler on the Roof? They were forced to leave their home and she was sweeping the floors as they were moving out because she didn't want the new tennants to think she was a sloppy housekeeper!!!!

I can sure relate to that one!

2. IMHO, I believe C2m's big EN is reassurance. She knows how to get things done but often needs to be told it is appreciated. SNL can show his appreciation but he like many other of his 'gender' often get caught up in themselves. (sorry not meaning to be biased here, just calling what I seez - LOL!! ) Men from Mars mentality.

Now I see that SNL may be using that as a weapon. If you look closely, SNL shows her attention then when she starts to respond he pulls back with a vengence. Throws stuff back in her face and ultimately sets her back into a depressive mode.

The cycle continues until they are out of each other's sight. Now what we are not seeing is SNLs resposnes here but based on what I learned from him, that is my opinion. HIs actions back up those conclusions.

3. What can we do to help?
Continue to be supportive to C2m. Encouraging her to change her user name was good. She is posting to others and helping some. Sometimes she uses those repsonses to share her story or vent at SNL. Kinda touchy to those of us who know both but others do it also except we don't know their spouses as well.

Be postive in helping C2m move forward. Detaching is hard for her. They have been together a long time and she has been made to feel quite dependant on him.

I am not sure if he realizes that or not but I think he does keep that string quite taunt between them to the point that she always feels she has to be at his beck and call. (letting him in the house, his doing laundry there, eating meals there, visiting with the kids, comes and goes as he pleases.

I mean really, SNL like all have needs. Why not let others meet his needs? Not an easy task. One of which C2m does meet some of his important needs but the gratitude is below tolerance level.

IMHO, C2m needs evaluate where she is meeting his needs and determine how much of it should continue (due to family and business relations) and what should be stopped. The effect on the Ws is not the main issue. The BS' right to feel safe and respected is important.

JMHO of course.
Your input and others are greatly appreciated.

L.

Sorry if this comment is not appropriate here, but reading this thread, and the comments on victimization struck a chord with me. In my own struggle, I am trying to come to terms with my own co-dependency - something I find BrambleRose's posts very helpful with.

I have just finished a book which is the most helpful one I have found so far - some of you may already know it - called "Love is a Choice: Recovery for Codependent Relationships" by Dr. Robert Hemfelt, Dr Frank Minirth, and Dr Paul Meier. In the chapter on the roles people play (12) - he goes into some detail about the victim role - one comment struck me particularly - "This role is not to be confused with actual victimization. True victims usually do not perceive themselves as victims in this intensely self-pitying sense." He goes on to say, "Martyr, rescuer, persecutor, victim, enabler, placater, hero, lost child, scapegoat, mascot - these roles help codependents survive their family (of origin) and the members learn them well. When they are applied outside dysfunctional situations, as for instance, in employment, church, and friendships, they don't work...codependents are stuck with a twisted system of interpersonal relationships that cannot help them cope in the real world."

So far, I have found this book more helpful than any other in outlining clearly the dynamics in a codependent relationship, and in providing a clear plan for recovery. Speaking as a person involved in a marriage in which I have experienced both physical abuse and emotional abuse, I can testify to the difficulty that arises for the person being abused. Yes, she may be being victimized - no it is not her fault if her partner abuses her. Yes, her first step is to be able to step out of denial and confront the abuse for what it is. But she also has to ask herself some hard questions about why she continues to take the abuse, what she does to try to stop it, what she might even be doing subconsciously to encourage it, and whether or not it is even possible to disrupt or change the pattern of behaviour, or cycle of abuse. Continuing to complain over and over again that one is being abused and yet continuing to seek a relationship with someone who shows no sign of wanting to change is a big red flag. That's not to say that the pain the abused person is feeling is not huge, or not real. It is real, and it does hurt like hell, and it can drive someone to the brink of suicide. But only that person can decide they want out of this - and yes, that is a choice they can make. I am not trying to minimize the danger of real domestic violence.

What I am saying is that codependency is a vicious cycle in which both parties are trapped and will not be broken until at least one party begins the move to take responsiblity for how they are in the relationship. Hopefully, when one party moves in the direction of recovery, the other will follow. They may follow kicking and screaming, they may not follow. But one thing is for sure - that person who made the move to change will benefit - and victim need no longer be a role he/she has to play.

Just my 2 cents - speaking from experience - sorry to hijack, Pepper - ignore if not relevant.

Cheers.
LIR

Dear Red

Nice .... very heartfelt and also very smart.

Our brains have an amazing ability to creat an internal environment of attitude ... we can have emotionally stormy weather or mild sunny days ... all of our own choosing ... right inside our own head!

We can worry ourselves until our immune system takes a dump and we become sick ... we can also support our joyful thoughts and create a physical zone of tranquility and peace while everyone around us is spinning out of control.

We can learn to trust ourselves to endure hard times with an attitude that we can choose to emerge stronger, or smarter, or more spiritually awake!

Personal power is what YOU and I are talking about. Personal power and personal responsibility go hand in hand.

Thanks for your contribution! (I think Nellie was finished talking to me anyway)

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi LIR,

Well we certainly are digressing from the original intent of this post but Pepper is a gracious woman...... with that in mind I would like to respond that I have read your comments and appreciate your clear and concise comments about such a 'vague' topic (co-dependenancy).

I will check out that book for a lot of what you say makes sense. Now as to application...... not easy to say and even harder to do.

About those who try to drag this sad dependancy state into other parts of their lives.... well I have to say that many do try to pass their dysfunction to their work lives and even to friends but it does get pushed back quicker and in a more blunt fashion.

I realize that many of us take more than our share. I know I do and yet..... well I sleep better knowing I have done my best but feel bad that we have to suffer so much just to make a point and defend what is our right. Not that I am 'self-righteous' (as I have been accused of being) but it is not wrong to expect what is rightfully our own. I don't have to give that much of my life to others. I think some of us have that tendancy as givers.

Thanks for your input LIR.

L.

"But Pepper is a gracious woman"

LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I can take flattery and greasing .... don't be shy Orchid! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Our brains have an amazing ability to creat an internal environment of attitude ... we can have emotionally stormy weather or mild sunny days ... all of our own choosing ... right inside our own head! <hr /></blockquote>Yep...where was it I read "sometimes you just gotta make your OWN sunshine"

Was that your quote Pepper/chocolate face??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

hmmm...

I could say all kinds of long winded stuff about this thread....but I think my sig sums it up nicely.

Pain is a given, Misery is optional.

I choose to opt out on the whole misery thing, as do many others here. Those who opt-in can't be forced - they have a right to choose misery.

Pepperband, [QUOTE] [/QUOTEOur brains have an amazing ability to creat an internal environment of attitude ... we can have emotionally stormy weather or mild sunny days ... all of our own choosing ... right inside our own head!

We can worry ourselves until our immune system takes a dump and we become sick ... we can also support our joyful thoughts and create a physical zone of tranquility and peace while everyone around us is spinning out of control.

We can learn to trust ourselves to endure hard times with an attitude that we can choose to emerge stronger, or smarter, or more spiritually awake!

Personal power is what YOU and I are talking about. Personal power and personal responsibility go hand in hand.
]

The positive side of this is the person I was before my H had his A.I used to say that what doesn't kill you will make you stronger. A magnet on my frig for many yeras said "Do what you can, with what you've got, where ever you are."I have gone through hell with gasoline drawers on and come out without even the smell of smoke on me in some of the problems of my lifetime but this one has almost consumed me. That is why I am so frustrated with myself for not being able to handle this situation the way I have always been able to handle other problems I have encountered in the past years of my life. I told my H,before we married, that I would never tolerate infidelity in our marriage and that I was one who could let him go and move on if he ever chose that route.Instead I have become someone I do not know how to help.This is THE worst thing that has ever happened to me and something that I cannot seem to get past.I do not post a lot because I don't like to seem like a whiner or a victim.I do not see others here as whiners but I see myself in a different light because I have always been strong,positive and ok with myself. I appreciated the advice you gave me about my H not contacting the OW with a NC letter or call but I still have not found a way to be all right with no closure being placed on the PA. They still work in the same place and my trust is not rebuilt.

He still will not talk with me or answer my questions. He actually tells me to stop or to shut up.
I am thinking on this crap almost every waking moment but cannot talk to my H about it without him getting angry or upset. The amazing thing is, I was doing so great just before he came back. I did not know about the MB site and about NC demands before taking him back.The last DDay, he was on his knees,crying,begging,pleading and saying that he would quit his job,we would move back East,he would do anything,everything if I would take him back. She called 2 hours later and he would not even tell her it was over and that he wanted no more to do with her and stupid,in love with him,me let him stay! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> He was lying to me for months saying he was not having an A and after the first DDay,he swore he was not even talking to her,and after he left me he swore he was staying at a friends house and I caught him at her house.How can I believe him now?
My H always told everyone that he knew that if he had an A he knew he would be absent his "manhood" and alone. That sure has not been the case. I would appreciate anything you have to say to help.
I look up to you and look for your posts to others as I think you have the best advice given here.This is like high school and I am not one of the more popular ones here but you are the class president.You are short and brief and very selective with your answers and I have hoped everytime I post you would answer.I received wonderful responses from others that I appreciated.I know you are recovered and doing great and it is not something that one enjoys doing to post to those of us who are still struggling but you are more help than you realize.
One of my favorite sayings, from a female minister,Joyce Myers says "you can be pitiful or you can be powerful!" I try soooooo hard to be powerful,I swear I do.I am so afraid to let my guard down and trust. My H still says that his A had nothing to do with anything lacking in our M or with me. He has no real explaination but from the times he has talked,I get that he had some sort of sympathy or pity for her.She is a recluse and a basket case.I know.I talked with her!He says she was a weird person but I guess the 34DD attribute helped him get past that! I suppose he felt that she should know what it is like to be with a real,sexy,sensual,caring man before she dies! EGO! EGO!
I know what a wonderful,fullfilling,emotional and physical needs met, relationship we had before her.The da## thing makes no sense!

bramble rose that is soooo wise!!!! Reminds me of when life hands you lemons make lemonade, or every cloud has a silver lining, but I like your focus better, really makes it clear how we live life is a choice...in a way it is like choosing to hope.

I don't have any answers kk, but I hear you. You are facing your waterloo (napoleon reference), life is what you make it, so the answers to your question lie within. But maybe for starters you could consider what it is you are afraid of? What is so scarey that it knocked that "all together" woman off her tracks. She is still there, she is just knocked off her feet.

Thanks LurkingAbout. Hmmmmmm....What is it that I am afraid of? I need to think on that for a bit.
"Life is what you make it." You see, I always thought that too until I helped to make life a wonderful,stable,fullfilling,promising,"what dreams are made of" marriage with a wonderful,loving,fantastic man,doing everything possible and ever written in books to make sure we had a MB example lifetime together.Then the truck ran over me,coming out of nowhere! I know it is hard to believe that A's can happen in good marriages,especially in great marriages,but it happens.OK.So what am I going to do about the fact that it did not turn out like the fairytale books say.........what am I afraid of? I will think on this.Thank you. I truly qppreciate the encouraging words,too."She's still there.Just knocked off her feet." thank you for hearing me. I don't get that too often lately.It means a lot to me.You must have been class president at one time,too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

KK .... I am thinking about all that you wrote ... I will post a response after more thought!

Take care...

Pepper