ML .... I have (had) a specific purpose in mind ... and the thread is now hijacked to a Nellie vs Pepper ... and that is NOT NOT NOT my intent. Lurking seemed to be "taking my side" which is NOT NOT NOT what I want. I am asking for clarification from one person .... Nellie. I do not want Nellie to be on the defensive when I talk to her.

Thanks for asking.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I understand. Sorry for the interference!

WARNING:
What I am about to say will NOT be recieved well by many. C2M, you may want to choose NOT to read what I am about to write:

Although this login shows that I've only been around a few motnths, the truth is I have another identity, and have been here almost 2 years.

I watched SNL appear, listened (and participated in) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> many, MANY of his diatribes throughout the turmoil of his A/pending Div. until he was kicked off for becoming verbally (in writing) abusive to his S. (As I recall, so was Thinker/C2M)

In all my listening, trying to become discrimanting (sp?), I came to the conclussion that his w (Thinker) DOES like to pose as a victim! zIt has served her well during their 20+ yr marraige, and she wears it like some kind of "Badge". I was coming to the conclussion that SNL had finally had enough, thus triggering the A.

Please do not misunderstand me. Does ANYBODY deserve to be treated like this? OF COURSE NOT! BUT, we know LITTEL of the dynamic of this M, this couple, who apparently got along in this manner for most of thier M. Thier "dance" -if you will was destructive and flawed. SNL had enough. He was unhappy, felt manipulated and with unmet EN's.

Thinker, on the other hand, was used to using her "Woe is me" manipulations to control her M, her children and her H.

This is IN NO WAY a justification of his A. But just my way of reasoning why I believe he came to inter into one, and why she is so stuck on it, and will not - CANNOT move on.

So, while I'm "fixing" something I know littel about: How about this? ALL of thier children are grown (18 and over). How many of them are working and self-supporting? If any of them are living at home, WHY are they not paying rent/contributing to the household to help thier mother with some ofthe bills? Even the children helping pay for the food they eat sounds like it would go a long way. They are there cause they want to be. SNL is OUT cause he wants to be. To continue to believe HE should be/will pay for all C2M's bills is unrealistic and naive on her part.

To continually invite him over for dinners & "fun family" times is also naive of her, thinking that he will suddenly "snap back" to his former life/mentality (I believe this is why she does it). Believing that if he participates with them, he will become guilt-ridden, and want to come home and be the "dutiful H " once again.

As I stated at the start, this is MY oppinion only but based on months and moths of reading BOTH of thier posts on here. If anyone who has not been here that long has anything to respond to me, please HOLD your comments until you have read a couple hundred of thier posts on MB. T o us and to each other.

This post is IN NO WAY and attempt to help OR attact C2M. I feel she does not really want help (btw - I also do not believe she is suicidal, just manipualtive). This post is for the clarification and understanding to all those "younger" posters who think they are helping C2M. Pepper's advice is the best I've read so far that could "help" C2M.

Please do not attempt to flame me, as I will not respond to it.

Regards.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Nellie ... I am so sorry this turned out this way .....

sheesh!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I agree!!! Good grief...can't they see... this thread in not even ABOUT Thinker.... aka C2M or SNL...HENSE, the NEW thread!

This is between Pepper and Nellie. I for one sorta wanted to see where it was going! This train has jumped the track!

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Sorry about that Pepperband! Is it too late to get back on track? Can that be done here or should we start a new thread?

Pepperband, even the way you are handling this runaway thread is teaching me--so thank you!

I'm at a loss as to what to do to do "un-do" my part in the hijack.

This IS about you now Pepperband, as it should have been from the start. But, sorry, first I think that we need your help to do that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And it seemed such a simple request when you started this thread, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'll live ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

One of my patients just brought me a 2 pound box of See's candy ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm getting "high".

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Well, I guess an apology is in order, Pepperband.

Sorry for my part in the highjack.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of my patients just brought me a 2 pound box of See's candy </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">May I ask (I mean, since the thread is highjacked already <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )...what is See's candy?

I've never heard of that in my area of the United States <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> which is about as far away from your area as you can get! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Gee, I went to work and when I came back the thread had about doubled in length.

Pepperband,

Unfortunately, I see that a couple of other posters have managed to be far more callous and cruel toward c2m, and in their case, it appears to be fully intentional.

In addition to the "victim" comments, what I objected to in your posts were comments like,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A voice filled with appreciation and gratitude for the good things in life?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't get the impression that c2m sees much good in life, which is understandable. I do not think that telling someone who is miserable that they should appreciate the good in life is very helpful. My sister once said, about a year after her son was murdered, that one has to try to appreciate what little good there is in life, because there is so much pain. I thought at the time that that was a kind of negative spin on things, but I have come to believe that there is a lot of truth in it. There really is far more pain than pleasure in life for many people, and in cases where the person is suffering from unremitting physical pain, that is even more the case.

I have always been annoyed when I see people using the word "victim" in a pejorative sense. One of the definitions at http://www.m-w.com is </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">, which I think describes c2m quite well. None of the definitions implies in any way that being a victim is in any way the victim's fault. Being a victim, speaking as a victim, acting as a victim - none of these should imply in any way that the victim is at fault, or less strong in character.

C2M has been treated horribly. She has been assaulted by her H. She appears to be in excrutiating pain and suicidal. I think she needs support (and medical care), not a pep talk - and anything less is not merely unhelpful, but very harmful.

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

This is See's Candy ...... yummmmm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Nellie***

Thanks for answering my question! I do appreciate your response.

I will think about your comment, and ask you more questions (if I need to).

Again, thanks.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

double post ... must be the chocolates! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I just want to say that Susan is P's pet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

She got to highjack, and I didn't. Well, actually, I *did* but I guess I didn't ask about CHOCOLATE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> so I was bad.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

PS: This isn't a highjack, it's just being silly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

***Sheryl*** .... if you're silly .... you get a chocolate for punishment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And unlike SOME people <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> , I ***know*** what See's candy is, and I love them suckers - P'nut Butter, yuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmy!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks Pep! Love chocolate!! Happy New Year!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My sister once said, about a year after her son was murdered, that one has to try to appreciate what little good there is in life, because there is so much pain. I thought at the time that that was a kind of negative spin on things, but I have come to believe that there is a lot of truth in it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly...and the more pain there is, the more important to look for what is good, rather than simply losing your self to pain. When someone has oppressed and victimized you, there is a time to grieve, but there is also a time to decide to overcome. And, I hope that with time and help, C2M will get to that point.

Kathi

Kathi **

I agree .... there is a time for every season... under Heaven.

Pepper/chocolate/face

Yikes...excuse me for asking. I should not have looked. I started two days ago counting my Weight Watcher's points. Last Christmas I had lost 19 pounds. During the year, I managed to find 10 of them.

No need to wait until New Year's to start a resolution. I am a work in progress every day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ah, Sheryl, sorry to highjack the thread...but it was already gone anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm off to my New Year's party with special friends.I am happy and blessed to have my MB friends too! Happy New Year <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pass me a caramel filled dark chocolate please... and NOT one that you have squeezed to see what is inside!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Wow this thread reminisces from the type we had last year....... a lot learned here in between the See's candy!

Pepper, I respect and understand your need to hear from Nellie. Just wanted to interject a thought for 2 reasons:

1. To give my 2 cents since I have spoken to both SNL & C2m in the past (not recently though but will try again).

2. To ask what you and other thought based on my 2 cents worth.

here goes:

I know that when I spoke to both of them often C2m would make the initial call. It was mostly in 2001 and I needed help just like they did so it was a 2 way street. Funny though, I spent more time talking with SNL. C2m talked some but relinquished the phone more to her H for most of the calls. Let's say that one time I was on the phone with them for 3 hours most of it with SNL. Both knew what the entire conversation was about.

What I learned was that C2m like many of us needs reassurance. In her case a lot of it. Her father's death, mother's sickness, her surgery, I believe daughter's car accident, MILs home repair issues and health along with her daughter's surgery and SNL's surgery plus other misc family issues......all of which happened since 2001 til now is really quite a bit for anyone to handle. Of course we all have issues here but when you put it down on paper......we all deal with more than a person should.

I think that is what is overwhelming for many, including C2m. I know what suicidal feels like. My in-laws have used it as a weapon of choice for years (as a threat but not to be taken lightly)..... last year I myself had depression bouts where that thought became overwhelming and believe it or not, both C2m and SNL helped me out of some of those bouts.

Point here is that both are victims and can choose to continue to be a victim with continued abuse or heal from that state and not allow more abuse to be dumped on them.

SNL has turned into the person he protested against here. But that is his choice. C2m is regressing and she does not like her current choices. She must face reality and learn how to better her future. It is hard when a women who has lived most of her life for her family feels abandoned. Even with her children around her she probably still feels as such. I know I did, then I had to realize that I had a little one here that loved and needed me.

It took a long while and maybe the longer one is married, the longer it takes...... but eventually I did get over my H and my need to cling onto him. C2m needs to get to that place. She will, she just needs time and help.

Again, reassurance seems to be one of her primary needs. It is for me too.

JMHO,
L.