Throwing WH out tonight..anybody on right now I need help

Okay I really need to vent it is 4:00am and I just packed WH things in two trash bags..that is all he deserves. I have been plan A'ing and have felt incredibly strong this week. I think telling my parents last week has helped me immensely. I knew he was not coming home tonight and seeing OW for a fact. I acted normal this afternoon when he left for work. Even gave him the benefit of the doubt..WH talked to me about three times tonight and was still able to lie to me like it was nothing. Well I have had it. Tomorrow will be 4 months since D-day and I am not going to be treated like this anymore. I just dont understand him at all and very tired trying to figure him out. He is still going to IC and has for the past 3 months and we have started MC together. But he still sees no need to even try to NC with OW. I still dont know if this is the right step, but I do feel as though I can handle this. I havent cried in over a week about our situation, when I use to cry 2,3,4 times a day. I guess I have become numb. If anybody is on right now I need help!!!

L

just uggh ugghhh ughhh...

poor you....

I can only and always say that it is up to you to decide when you have had enough. That it is your line and limit and if you feel it is time then so be it...you get all the support you need.

I guess the question is...can you do it plan B style and send him off with a letter that speaks rationaly about this being his choice based on his actions.

Are you able to do this without a lot of emotional turmoil that will railroad the real issues of his continued betrayel...And I'm not even saying that you have to want to continue with him down the road...just hoping you have your ducks lined up enough face him so that any blame sent your way holds little to no value...

strength to you...
I think the one of hardest things in WS apparant attemtp to make the most irrational of things rational. the unacceptable acceptable...and that just messes with everyones head...

Godspeed in doing what you must do...
ARK

Ark,

Thanks for repling. Like I said I feel very strong right now and have a wonderful family. I basically wrote him a Plan B letter back on May 9, 2003. I simply stated that I was sorry for anything I had done in our marrige that created an environment that led to him having an A. I also want on to say I was fully committed to him and our M together. Then I went on to tell him I need to preserve the love I still feel for him and felt I could not do that while he was living here and still in contact with OW. It was the hardest letter I have ever written and came from the deepest part of my heart. He read it in the afternoon and hugged after he read it. But he never really responded to it. Well wait I take that back..that night he went away with OW for the weekend to attend a wedding. So you see I feel this is the next logical step. Correct me if I am wrong.

not me buddy...can't correct you and tell you you're wrong...

ha ha wouldn't it be ironic to be wrong (or even told you were wrong) in the face of his continualed deceptions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You sound strong...and you know inside when you have had enough...and when living with out being witness to all this chaos and pain out weighs continually having it in your face...

Any sardines to put somewhere in the middle of one of those garbage bag??
or spilling somethings sticky on them...

oh crap this is the type of stuff that just feeds the self serving victimized "i don't know what kind of women and men" over at those other woman boards..isn't it...??

but one can always FANTASIZE about using that toothbrush of his just once to clean something that was never meant to be cleaned by a toothbrush <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

blessings lisa...i'm on my way to work but will catch up with you in an hour or so...
be strong
seek peace.
ARK

Thanks Ark

Talk to you soon!!! I am getting that toothbrush right now!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

{{{{{{{{LISA}}}}}}}}}}}}]
Personally I think you did the right thing. Obviously you have reached a level now where you are strong enough to go to plan b and will no longer tolerate his treatment of you. Good on you!! My wishes and prayers will be with you and also with your H that he will relise what he is losing...........

From What Are Plan A and Plan B? by Dr Willard Harley:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."<hr /></blockquote>Kicking him out and putting all his belongings in a trash bag is not my idea of making the last thing he remembers is your care and thoughtfulness. Sorry, I don't mean to be mean but if the goal is to save your M, then why on Earth would he want to come back to you after that? It will only reinforce his beleif that you were being a phony while you were in Plan A, and that your true colors have finally come out. But if you don't beleive me, go check out ALostSoul's thread The Continuing Saga Of ALS... to see for yourself how well this same strategy worked for him with his WW.

Lisa, a BS that doesn't have children with the WS (I'm assuming this is also your case) has a greater chance of her/his M's ending in divorce because the WS does not have another compeling reason to come back and work on rebuilding the M. It may not be too late to salvage your Plan A efforts before you go to Plan B if you calmly talk with your H and apologize for your behavior (even though morally he does deserves it). Here's another quote from Dr Harley:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover."<hr /></blockquote>

[ June 14, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

LISA , I am so sorry for what is happpening , and I am glad you posted right away . Week ends are so slow , glad to see ARK was on to jump in .

I know about being in that position and needing someone right away .

I agree with that you had enough , I explained that some point it will hit you between the eyes .

I hear what TMCM is saying , and although he has a point according to MB princeapals , it does not always go down like that when you have left ongiong contact for to long .

I feel it is alittle different living through it . PLEASE still have hope that your M can be saved and that your PLAN A is not ruined .

I did the same thing the first time through him out just like that . A bit risky yes , but he did come home I PLAN A while he was out , then went to PLAN B in full .

A bit back ward but there are plenty here whos WS , moved out and PLAN A before going FULL PLAN B .

READ the posts , I know your exact feeling last night all the anger of the disrespect and the lies right to your face I know looking at that clock and thinking HOW dare he do this . If he wants her then get out and have her . BUT don't think your sleeping here !!!!

I am not saying you did the right or wrong thing I am saying you are doing it for YOU .

The only thing if he is OUT , do not let him back with out a PLAN for recovery and bounderies .

AND of course N/C from OW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DO not except any CONTACT with terms of coming home NONE !!!!!! IT will lead to more PAIN . THAT is where my biggest screw up was .

I did not know MB then . WHEN he begged I took him back and he told me there maybe some CONTACT and that is what lead me down the road I was on for MONTHS now .

OK got to go post an update and never threaten unless you are going to DO IT > he will see it as a sign of weekness .

((((((((((hugs))))))))) BE STRONG , YOU are WORTH IT .

ARK SAID: I think that one of hardest things is WS apparant attempt to make the most irrational of things rational. the unacceptable acceptable...and that just messes with everyones head...

This is why I think your story sounds a lot like mine, so I don't know what to say to help you- because TMCM is right when it comes to the plans, but I think you and I have both had WH who have absolutely no remorse (GUILT, but not remorse or repentance)and who lie and lie and lie. I know this is common for a WS to do, but I have seen some WS who at least do something right. I don't think my WH ever did, and I am not sure yours has. I mean, I was nice but firm, and he kept lying anyway. I bought him gifts, called him just to chat, served him in different ways, and he just kept lying and cheating. I cried with him over past secrets and he just ran back to OW. I wrote him letters on how I was seeking help with my issues, how I know I messed up some, the lovebusters I committed, and he still ran back to OW. This is a OW that he doesn't even claim to like much anymore (at first it was true love you know). On the other hand, I caused 2 scenes in his work parking lot (one in Aug right after I found out, one in November), I screamed on the phone with him when I found out about more lies, and more betrayals, and he still ran back to OW. Nothing I did made a difference- I could have been Mother Teresa and he would have gone to OW. I could have been the monster of all monsters and he would have gone to OW. IT just didn't matter. Now for me it mattered. I am so embarrassed (well, sometimes I laugh) at the work scenes. And at some of the screaming fights- because I was fighting with someone who wasn't all there, and I looked like an idiot in the process. I wish I had kept my cool, and I am actually taking classes on letting go of anger and just trying to chill.
Back to what Ark said. Sorry, I digress. I think that the biggest hurdle for me, was realizing that I had to keep my head at all times because his was gone. I had to realize that it was not rational to have a marriage with a girlfriend on the side, it was not rational for him to say he wanted to be a good father to OC when the OW had just left her son for my WH and he didn't care about that, it was not rational for him to tell me that the damage was done before the affair because I would get mad at him sometimes, it was not rational to say that he only lied to not hurt me because he thought it was best (hmmm...what is best is just not doing what you are lying about), it was not rational to say that we blew our whole relationship because we had sex with each other (and only each other) before marriage, so God wasn't in our marriage, so therefore it was ok for him to go to OW who was married and who he slept with in the back seat of his car.....ok enough examples. My point is, none of this stuff is rational, but sometimes the WS is so convincing that you actually consider it. You actually wonder if maybe YOU are the foggy one, if you have had an unrealistic sense of what marriage is this whole time and your WS has opened your eyes. At this point, I think it is time to walk away. I know that it was dangerous for me to have any thoughts like these in my mind. I now laugh at the insanity. But I wasn't laughing when I was in it, because I almost got sucked into it. While I am not advocating throwing him out, I AM saying, keep your head, keep your cool, and if it is time for him to go, maybe you could just hand him the trash bags and say "I packed your stuff dear, and I wish you well, and please let me know if you want to work on this marriage because I do still love you." Firmly, nicely, rationally......Just my thoughts- thinking of you. Please let us know what you did.

[ June 14, 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

Lisa you are here, I assume, because you want to save your M, and unless you get a grip on your emotions, they will only end up sabotaging all your hard earned Plan A efforts. Reacting instead of acting usually comes back to bite us in the [censored].

I would hope you had time to read some of this before you give him the trash bags .

ADGIRL 48 , says it nicely , you can hand him his bags nice and firm .

you do not have to sabatoge all tyour PLAN A but you can ask him to leave firm and nice and still show that you love him , but can't allow the disrespect .

ALSO I have been meaning to ask you are you sure he is going to IC , ??? or is he telling you that is where he is ??? YOU said, yourself your family is supportive of you I assume you mean to help you and support the fact that you still intend to save your M .

IF so this is one of the greatest assets , having the love and support of family to vent to , and know that even if they do not agree to save your M they support it cause they love you .

YOU need no one negitive .

WELL I wish you could post to say if you are ok , I will try to check in as much as possiable .

BE prepared for him to act as though you are abandoning him , that would be normal in his abnormal world . YOU are not , you are preserving your love for him and your sanity .

IF IF IF your M should not recover you must rember you still need to recover and you will.

YOU have life , a good one family , children , freinds and inner strength that you may not even know of yet ..

BE strong and healthy . I am checking over the other post to me in a minute .

Lisa, I think you are doing the right thing. Sometimes it takes just being done, for them to see what they are losing.

I plan A'd for about 4m(not knowing it, or that the a was still on) and when I found out the TRUTH, I threw all his stuff out at the doorstep of his work. he had humiliated me publicly for 7m and you know what? I was done with it. I was done with his treatment and I was done with everything. There comes a time that sitting back and taking it *doesn't* work and it *doesn't* earn their respect or love. At that point, you do what you think is most appropriate.

TMCM, I had a handle on my outward emotions. I did what was best. My actions were a figurative cold water in his face. He never really thought he would lose me. He CERTAINLY didn't think I was capable of that. I earned his respect that day. I had already earned his love.

I didn't bother with trash bags, I just piled all his stuff in the back of my car along with suitcases(not in the suitcases, but I did bring them) He was pretty upset when his $$$ custom suits were laying on the ground, when all his coworkers saw what I did. He got over it in a matter of hours because he KNEW he deserved it.

I think you sometimes have to be at the end for them to believe you. If he doesn't come back, and end it with ow, you aren't in any worse shape than you are now. Think of it like that. If he does come back and help to fix the marriage, then you will be in a better place.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"I threw all his stuff out at the doorstep of his work.

TMCM, I had a handle on my outward emotions."<hr /></blockquote>Sorry but your actions proved otherwise, and actions speak louder than words.

Lisa:...it is 4:00am and I just packed WH things in two trash bags..that is all he deserves. I have been plan A'ing and have felt incredibly strong this week. I think telling my parents last week has helped me immensely. I knew he was not coming home tonight and seeing OW for a fact. I acted normal this afternoon when he left for work. Even gave him the benefit of the doubt..WH talked to me about three times tonight and was still able to lie to me like it was nothing. Well I have had it.

Orchid: I did that also, not once but about 5 times. Was able to get it down to a science (under 2 hours). The WS tried to control it by telling me he needed 'weeks' to get out. He didn't. Seeing his stuff in our closet (he mostly took clothes) hurt way tooo much.

1st I packed them nicely in boxes. Next time trash bags (offered to deliver it to OWs - we didn't know where he lived), 2nd time trash bags
out in the garage, 3rd time combo w/trash bags (for underwear) with suits and other clothes on the front porch, 4th time forget the bags sent the stuff straight to his truck (no bags) to the lawn (police came that time), 5th time .....on the lawn in plastic bags.

Why did I do this? Was it an LB? It could have been any letter of the alphabet. The reason why this was done was because I was at my wits end and knew it. This was done for my safety and santity. No thought was being given about how I was feeling and the personal torture our family was going through.

Do I advocate this? Not in all cases but if the BS needs to get the WS stuff out of their home because it hurts to much and has done it as best they can, then yes.

The relief was immense. I didn't realize how tense those items where making me. The WS grumbled to the police about my throwing stuff out. I told the officers why. The officers said that the WS ought to be glad that was all I was doing. Then they arrested him for pushing me.

See it was all a control thing. The WS does not like it when the BS gets control of their lives. This A disease makes the WS think it is allowed (not ok but allowed, there is a difference) allowed to push the BS and family around, control the BS and family and come and go as they please.

Putting the stuff out on the lawn for the neighbors to see was necessary in my case. The WS didn't want the neighbors to know. Know what? They already knew he had moved out, they figured out why, they had heard my crying (while going to the garage - sometimes). I really couldn't hide those red swollen eyes I had for weeks on end. Neighbors are not blind. Neither are children or pets.

Just be careful.

TMCM: Kicking him out and putting all his belongings in a trash bag is not my idea of making the last thing he remembers is your care and thoughtfulness. Sorry, I don't mean to be mean but if the goal is to save your M, then why on Earth would he want to come back to you after that? It will only reinforce his beleif that you were being a phony while you were in Plan A, and that your true colors have finally come out. But if you don't beleive me, go check out ALostSoul's thread The Continuing Saga Of ALS... to see for yourself how well this same strategy worked for him with his WW.

Orchid: Maybe this tactic doesn't work good for WS wives. But if the BS H's need is the same, I understand why it needed to be done. I don't believe it would make the BS a phony in plan A. Why? Because by that time the WS should be in plan B.

JMHO,
L.

Plan B letter was already written and sent...

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover."

I think that plan A is all about reaching that point of boundary setting that having a WS spouse still in the home while in the face of blatant lies and disrepect that gives the BS the ability to say enough is enough...

Almost all boudaries set are PERCEIVED by the WS as demands...even the WS that states they 'want to reconcile" and keeps such blatant contact ie spending the night with the OW may make the WS cry unfair and mean and controlling if the WS says anything......but the reality is it is the WS who has made the choice NOT the BS.

If the BS gives in to seeing limit setting and boundaries being a LB if the WS calls it one, then the BS will have no choice but to resign themselves to a cake-eater to the point of destructive and in my opinion blatant disrepect of another human being. (abuse to me if you really push me on it...and I am not one to play the abuse card lightly...)...BUT we are only victims of abuse when we allow it in our lives.

Even key words of plan A..are the betrayed spouse NEGOTIATING with the WS to totally seperate.

spending the night with the OW is not a sign or action of negotiation... and when the BS decides to no longer be part of that triangle it has to be OK for them to decide so as well.

THIS (the removal of the WS) does not mean the end of a marriage as in the WS has already completey engaged in activity that pretty much undermines marriage to the core.

THIS does not mean the end of marriage as in 'well you kicked me out'....
It means the end of one persons participation in the whole mess.

Lisa in my opinion sounds in great control...
not over the edge.
I apologize for my lack of tact in my suggestions (OK the toothbrush reference) though meant to only lighten a really hard decision they were just a small stab at humor.

If the issue is the garbage bags...then put it in matching Samsonite luggage...

But Plan A is the exact thing that can bring a person to say enough is enough...have your rollar coaster ride without me...

She has sent the Plan B letter and told him...
the choice is his as to what he does...in some ways it always has been...
but Lisa has choices also....
and if her choices are viewed negatively...well that is the epitomy of irony is it not...

I'm not saying call him names, yell, or anything...I am saying their is no dis-honor in saying,,,
look your actions speak of who you have become and define what you believe in.
and i for one can no longer sit here and watch you do these things...

setting limits is not necessarily just reacting...it can be just acting....

ark <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

THATS the other post I wanted you to read NAIVE "S

I agree with that also , I agree with MB ,,, BUT I do think evey one knows there WS the best and evey situation is very different because of that reason .

WHEN it is time for PLAN B , I think thats where it all gets sticky ,

BY the book works for some and cold slap of reality works for others .

I have to disagree that after doing a good long PLAN A will not be recognized by a ws in time .

AFTER all, even PLAN B by the book , they get hosstile cause there still in FOG !

I also think NAIVE could have been in control of her emtions and still do what she did .

SHE controled the fact that , she had enough and was in control of what and how she wanted to do it .

BACK to LISA , JUST take it a step at a time , if you trough him out , ok now know your next step .

THINK things through and go on your mission to save your M .
Do not get discouraged if you cry and have a melt down that is normal , you are taking control of your life setting BOUNDERIES of what is exceptable and healthy .

In turn you are human , it is depresseing and it is sad and it is a life changing decision.

LET him run to her if thats what he wants , let them have it 24 hrs, a day . REAL life will set in .

He will see the difference , coming and going is fun right now he is sorry when he wants to be when he sees your face after being with OW .

NOW well she ain't part time and she will demand more and expect more . SO let him try it on for size .

I know it hurts , but you will see that with out it in your face you will become stronger .

Although it hurts to know they can be with eachother when ever they want now , it is relief in away knowing you do not have to sit up all night long wondering when or if he is coming home .

As much as we'd like to candy coat the issue, throwing the WS's belongings out on the lawn, or in front of his/her place of work, is NOT acting out of reason but reacting out of anger (even though outwardly you may not have been showing any signs of it), and an angry outburst IS a love buster. And it definitely is NOT part of Plan B.

It may work in some cases (especially when children are involved) but I beleive that the vast majority of cases it tends to backfire on the BS who purportedly is trying to save the M.

Just as we acknowledge that a WS has to live with the consequences of his/her actions, so does the BS also has to live with the consequences of his/her actions and unless s/he is willing to do that, it may be wiser to restrain him/herself from carrying them out.

[ June 14, 2003, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

I acted out of anger AND hurt, betrayal, lies ect; and so on. I WAS in control of my emotions. I did not scream at him, call him names, confront her, or even say anything beyond "You want to publicly humiliate ME!" and it wasn't even in a raised voice.

I am not sure what you consider controlling your emotions. I had a lot I could have done to embarrass me and make me look like a loon. I do have to say that his employees found my actions to be what he deserved. They are glad we are together, but he was a real [censored] for awhile.

Don't you think maybe her H needs to see what little he deserves from her? Maybe for a wake up call?? Truthfully, playing nice and being walked all over doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to get serious.

My recovery is going very well now. No one has to agree with any of my actions. All that matters is that we are getting along well, there is honesty in the relationship and he has RESPECT for me. He told me flat out that he would not have respected me had I gone along with his affair(aka doing nothing).

Sometimes they have to see that the bs is serious. Sometimes that calls for me than just I love you honey and when you have had your fill of fun and sex with someone else, I am here to fufill your needs, lovingly with forgiveness.

Some people need to see they are REALLY going to lose. I have very good control of my emotions, but I do express them when I feel it is appropriate.

Yes, I was willing to live with the consequences of my actions. I was going to divorce him. I was done with being cheated on. I guess you have to get to the point that you believe you are worth more that what you are receiving. My marriage is working NOW because I am receiving love and respect from him. Take either of those out of the equation and I am gone. He ever has another affair of any kind and I am out of here. He can pick up his belongings however he likes because there will be no more talking, discussing, counselling ect;. To me, that is beyond repair and he is aware of it.

11/02- find out that he is having only an EA, he swears to end it, that he was missing something in the marriage. I change, all looks good
3/28/03-I find out everything, Always a PA, been going on since first of sept, I throw him out, get a lawyer. We do alot of soul searching. He gives her up this time for real and recovery starts in April. Things going well so far, major changes on his part,lots of counseling and time together

[ June 14, 2003, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: naive' ]

THIS IS NOT A MISSION TO DETERMINE , witch way PLAN A PLAN B or any other thing is right or wrong .

THIS is about a fellow MB , in a horriable situation , one in witch she needs support and advice for . NOT MORE CONFUSION .

LISA is farely new to MB , unfortunately not new to the PAIN that A's bring .

She knows abou PLAN A and PALN B as do most of us here . THERE is one goal to save the M .

WHAT works for one and not for the other has nothing to do with the GENDER of the person .

I am sure most of us at one point have had contact in our face , some found out and WS just stoped cold turkey .

THATS wonderful , but speaking from experiance , yes PLAN A is hard very hard and I don't think its cuase I am a women .

BUT IN THIS situation , contact is out of control disrespectful .

Doing PLAN A is not to enable to or let them become a cake-eater .

SO she is setting the bounderies and how she does it does not matter JMVHO as long as she does it .

If the M or any M is going to recover IT will .

LETS face it , there are some who have done it by the books to the letter and are D .

THATS it .

I do not think setting bounderies any way you do them is a LB .

I do not want to offend anyone here , I am saying LISA needs guidence and support and understanding .

I found that sometimes people posting to me no matter how nice they put it where bashing me . (I know that you are open to all here but some are more sensitive then others . )

It mad me not want to post at times , I am not saying everyone should just say what we want to here , but the last thing is to be judged that what you did is wrong .

OK she did it I think , she hasn't responded yet with up date , so lets take it from there .

IF she did then lets help her from that point . JMVHO

ORCHID and ARK I am glad you jumped in I have been posting to LISA and encouraged her to reach out some more to others like you guys .

I am only supporting her and she reached out to me reading that our situation are/where VERY VERY simalar .

I am still in early stages and wet behind the ears and I did not do all the "right" things .

I am encourageing her not to ENABLE or to allow ws to be a cake-eater .

I am not TELLING her what to do .

WELL if you know my stroy you know what I mean by all this .

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Don't you think maybe her H needs to see what little he deserves from her? Maybe for a wake up call?? Truthfully, playing nice and being walked all over doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to get serious. "<hr /></blockquote>Oh I agree but then why not serve the WS with separation papers and a Plan B letter instead? It would accomplish the same as kicking him/her out of the house while still retaining control of ones emotions.

[ June 14, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

OK, TMCM, for me, a seperation letter would have taken too long. I wasn't going to sit and live like that. I wanted him out of my house with no reason to *have* to come back. I didn't want to see him, I didn't want to have him come and get anything. The thought of him and what he did made me want to barf.

Sorry, I agree with Lisa, she is doing the right thing for her. Hasn't she been through enough? Do we have to critique her emotional fortitude? Do you have to tell her she is wrong for being done with what he is giving her(a lot of gried and being with OW) What *I* am reading with her post is that she is over it. Over all of it and if it ends the marriage, so be it. If it saves it, so much the better.

Lisa, I hope you are doing ok. Please don't let this bit of bickering within your thread upset you. I think what you did was corageous and strong.

Naive I'm not telling Lisa what to do either, BUT if she is serious about following Plan A/Plan B then she is NOT doing a good job at it by resorting to throw her WH's belonging out, and everybody patting her on the back and saying to her 'You Go Girl!' is NOT doing her any favors either. To say that it is part of Plan B is ludicrous at best.

[ June 14, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

WHY is it ludicrous??? BECAUSE IT IS NOT "WRITTEN" to be "THE RIHGT WAY"

If it gets results will it still be WRONG??

AGAIN there are PLENTY here who did the transition from PLAN A to PLAN B and there M still did not recover . SO then it is ok .???

NO I am sorry , it has to do with the indivual BS& WS .

If I would have served my WS with separation papers and PLAN B letter , he would have taken that as ATTACK this is war and went straight for D .

THAT is his personality and accompanied with FOG , IT would have sent him running for good .

I belive in PLAN A all the way until then I still feel it is different for the transion to PLAN B .

THE situation will determine that .

LISA please post soon and I hope and pray you are ok .

YOU have been understanding to WS and communicating very well and have been pacient .

I am praying for you and your WS .

3isacrowd, my H would have been done if I had served seperation papers. He would have taken that as one more abandonment in his life.

His father tried to talk me into cleaning out all our accts, to make him wake up and if not wake up, at least I got to them before him and would have the money. His Dad flipped me out, his Dad's advice would have ended the marriage, that would have been war then.

Seperation papers would have made it legal in his mind to become a true couple with the OW. My method(being I know him and his mind well) was exactly what was needed. Less would have been pointless, more would have been destructive.

Principles are one thing, reality is another. I followed MB pricinples without ever reading the book. I had no clue about MB till about a month after DDay. My actions were for ME. They served to regain what monstrous amounts of pride and self respect he took during that A. It was a public announcement that yes, I am a dumb @%$, but I am not taking it anymore thank you very much. My H, though really really hacked off at the embarrassment, saw the strength I had and had respect for me.

If at the same time I threw his stuff out, called him and ow names, or screamed at him, that would be very different.

A person can only take so much before you just don't have it left to take. I think that is where Lisa is. She has already done it, I don't think it is helping her to tell her how wrong she is.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"WHY is it ludicrous??? BECAUSE IT IS NOT "WRITTEN" to be "THE RIHGT WAY" "<hr /></blockquote>Exactly. There is a HUGE difference between telling a WH, in a letter, that you love him and wish to rebuild the M but that the pain of continued contact with the OW is too great and that to save the last bit of love left for him, you want no further contact until he ends the A and expresses a desire to rebuild the M using the MB principles, AND simply throwing his belongings out and kicking out.

NOBODY, least of all Dr Harley, says that doing a flawless Plan A/Plan B is guaranteed to bring the WS back, but from his experience which encompases thousands of couples over many decades it gives the BS his/her best shot to save the M. Frankly I put my faith in the good doctors knowledge and experience than the folks offering feel good advice.

I doubt that the vast majority that have used such tactic have been succesful. I know, because I've met many BS that did that and only a handful got the results you got, the rest only ended having their WS filing for divorce.

[ June 14, 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Separation papers is a right way, is the legal way but may not be the only way.

Here's how I see it, you can do the separation but the act of reducing the stress still needs to be done. If the WS is trying to maintain some sort of control by leaving his/her things that is their choice. If those things are causing undue pain and suffering to the BS and family, then it is the BS' choice to remove them. If it can not be done in a amicable fashion (I gave my WS the opportunity to move his stuff out..... 4 weeks the first time), then the BS has to do what it takes to make her/him feel safe.

Taking things to work? Well I have a laundry bag story where I took a grocery bag and put 1 day of his laundry on her front door! Comic relief? At the time, BS relief is what I needed and I got it. NOw I don't advocate it for all but in my case, I needed relief and I did it in a safer manner. How? Well I can't go into detail but I did not break any laws. OW tried to pin one on me but I did know what I was doing and she tried to take it to a different level. In the end even the WS was laughing.

When choosing what to do, be safe, don't be sorry.

Lisa, your emotions are running high right now. Be careful you don't let them run away with your thoughts. There are many things you can do without getting into trouble that will bring you some 'relief'. Choose wisely.

Gender may come into play here. When a W does things vs her H, people including the police view it differently. This puts the BS H's in a more difficult position. However, when all see a WS W out there, sometimes the tables turn. Because to society, a WS W is worse than a WS H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Orchid:

"Gender may come into play here. When a W does things vs her H, people including the police view it differently. This puts the BS H's in a more difficult position. However, when all see a WS W out there, sometimes the tables turn. Because to society, a WS W is worse than a WS H."<hr /></blockquote>Oh I agree, and in fact I have no doubt that MAYBE some of the same group yelling 'throw the bum out' would be reluctant to offering the same advice if the roles had been reversed.

In cases where you have a BH and WW, guess who is kicked out of the house? Not the WW.

[ June 14, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

TMCM,

In the long run it is the family who suffers regardless of who exists, where and when.

It is much easier to put the Ws H's stuff out but there are other ways to bring a WS W's issues out. Same results (bring some relief to the BS and family - give the WS less control).

Now how the BS makes their choices is up to each BS individually.

L.

I agree with you Orchid and I was just making an observation regarding the gender differences you brought up in your closing statements. It seems that we have a double standard in the way we treat a WH and the way we treat a WW.

[ June 14, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Not double standard TMCM, different tactic. Same objective. Parents and spouses are a single name for 2 very different roles within each name. So how each parent or spouse is treated in a given situation is different.

ex: hugging your mom vs shaking your dad's hand may be how some parents want to be treated. H giving a W flowers while the W gives her H a great home made dinner are other ways of doing the same thing.

So reaction in an A, it is the same. Each may require a different technique to get the same results.

L.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry Orchid I don't agree. If it quacks like a double standard, walks like a double standard, and looks like a double standard, it is a double standard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ June 14, 2003, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

She said she did write him a plan B letter and gave it to him....

I thought she was just following through...now...

delayed...but following through..

I don't think anyone is cheering her on in throw the bum out...

I think people are trying to offer support to an adult decision that enough is enough...

we don't even know if she had his stuff sitting by the door and with great care simply told him to take his things and go...since he has CHOSEN such blatant continued contact. It is really he who has chosen....

no one is saying you go girl in a gender biased male bashing...way

I would say you go girl if you (she/he) have decided once and for all that you can not take anymore pain in your world....that's a hard definitive decision to make...but it is infair to say that is what causes the demise of a marriage.

ARK

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry Orchid I don't agree. If it quacks like a double standard, walks like a double standard, and looks like a double standard, it is a double standard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>TMCM,

IMHO, it can only be a double standard if the 'players' were exactly the same. But a female vs male make up/perspective is very different. This difference has it's benefits and challenges.

L.

Orchid I guess this time we will just have to agree to disagree.

I know the other ladies are going to be sad but this will be my last post on this thread (I beleive I heard applause in the background <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

Lisa I really do wish you the best and I hope that things turn around with regards to your WH. Take care.

[ June 14, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Hey TMCM,

I do want you to know that I appreciate your objective opinons. You have helped many. Sharing viewpoints are always helpful.

I certainly don't want to be the one to run you off from this thread. If it is helping Lisa see both sides of her issue, then our little debate was worthwhile. U should have been here a couple of years ago when the words really used to fly. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

take care, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Hey Everyone,

I did not know I could start such a firestorm!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Oh but how I appreciate each and every post. I am seeing both sides of my reaction or actions as it may be. I really dont have time to post right now but please know I am fine and H is still home. Coffee and 3 (on another thread) have made some good points. As did Orchid, ark and naive. I want to give you guys alittle background about us and situation and maybe things maybe clearer. I cant do that right now but will very soon. I am still feeling very strong even though H is still here. And by the way if anyone talks to Coffeeman..please tell him to come back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Once again you guys are all wonderful and I will be back shortly..Just know I am doing just fine.

L

Orchid and Lisa, thank you both for your kindness and open mindedness (this in no way implies that I don't consider ark, naive and 3isacrowd anything less themselves) and I just want you to know that I'm not retiring from the thread because I feel hounded off in any way, shape or form. I have the upmost respect for ALL the folks here and disagreeing with some of my fellow MBers in no way diminishes my respect for them. The reason why I'm retiring from this thread is because I beleive that it may help other folks, who could be a little squeamish, from giving their valuable opinions on this thread and may beleive that I'm going to pounce on them for giving it (I've got to admit that sometimes my opinions may have the effect of a raging bull inside a china shop). Who knows, somebody may chime in with something totally brilliant and overlooked by us, the participants in this thread. Take care and have a great weekend.

Coffee,

Thank you and I totally understand..I hope you will at least keep reading this thread. I havent had time this weekend to post, but have plenty to say. Honestly, Coffee it was after reading your post that made rethink my actions and goals in this situation. The post helped me regain my emotions and to see clearly once again. Thank you.

But hearing everyones opinions have also helped tremedously, because there may be a time in the near future that I will have to Plan B.

Talk to everyone soon..

Hugs to all.

Hi Everyone,

Hope everyone had a nice Father's Day. Ours was spent getting ready to open our pool.

I guess you all must think I only make threats and dont go through with them, but this is not the case. I have never told him to get out if he keeps seeing her. I have been trying to Plan A the best I can and H has commented to me about the big difference in me the past 2 weeks. I guess it is working. I think I packed his stuff because I knew for sure he was seeing OW Fri nite (dont ask how <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) and he pretended like he was coming home. I really dont think it was so much as him seeing OW but how he just went about his day and acted so nonchalant.

There were many factors for me changing my mind: I guess the biggest was that I relized that H has noticed the difference in me so I must be doing Plan A okay. Secondly, we have five children and our own business. In regards to the business, I need to be able to have some control of that. If H was gone I would lose that control and I cant let that happen. We have been having financial problems and are starting to see our way out of them. Also I feel as though I would been ruining our kids summer and I dont want to do that. My family is the most important thing to me and I am putting them first. One of us has to and right now that person is me. Dont get me wrong H is a great father, but can still look into his kids eyes when he comes home from OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . H was also thrown out of his parents house at the age of 16 and didnt talk to family for 7 years afterwards. He has some abandonment problems and that is the last thing I want him to feel again. But please do know that H said he deserves to be thrown out. Also know I am firmly setting boundaries without demands.

I think I am going to give this Plan A until the end of the summer. I feel strong enough to do that. H is in IC and we are in MC together.

Last nite we had a little crisis with my daughter (13yr from previous marriage). She was at her dads and was very upset. Anywhere long story short I talked to her on the phone and calmed her down and talked about the situation that upset her so much until basically it was resolved. When I finally hung up with her my H turned to me and said "I am so impressed how you handled that." "I dont think I have ever seen your head screwed on so straight since I have known you." So basically what I am getting out is that I know I am strong enough to continue Plan A, particulary when H responds like that. Dont get me wrong, I know I will have some rocky days, but that is when I am gonna reach out to all you wonderful people. Thanks for listening..Hope I get some responses.

Lisa,

One thing I want you to hear is this quote:

"When your spouse is trying to decide between you and the lover, it's time for Plan B."
...Willard F. Harley Jr. PhD.

The whole point of Plan A is to get your spouse to the point where he sees your marriage as an attractive alternative....and to END THE AFFAIR. Timing is relevant and important. Plan A is all about the spouse....he gets treated well, even though he is trampling on your heart...and it is so hard on the BS. It is tolerable because of what it achieves...no more A. If you try to do a Plan A for too long, several things can happen....first, your H becomes a cake eater who has the luxury of having his needs met by two women and has no desire to change once it becomes apparent that both will tolerate the situation. Secondly, because Plan A is so stressful because of the pain to the BS....that keeping hold of the LBs is very very hard to accomplish....and it is very easy to lose the edge and miss the right opportunity for Plan B to have any effect.

I don't want to press you either way...but I think that your timing should revolve around when you have the best chance of helping your marriage....and not the summer issue.

Good Luck

Star,

My H has never said it was a decision between the two of us. He has always told me that he has no intentions of leaving me. H has always told me there is no comparsion..simply stated I am his wife. Now of course I dont fully understand this and I really cant believe anything he says, but nevertheless he has said this to me many times. I am now 4 months since D-day and hoping like Dr. H says "most A die a natural death by 6months after exposure."

H has always told me since D-Day his biggest problem is how and why this could happen. He says he really doesnt get anything from OW that he doesnt get from me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . H has been in IC since the first week of March working on issues he has.

Yes I agree that timing is everything..and that is what I am trying to figure out right now. All I know is that I feel better about myself than I have in a very long time, and H is noticing and commenting alot about it. I guess at this point I can only take it day by day and lean on my support system when I need to. Talk t o you soon...thanks for the input.

L

HEY LISA , GLAD to see you are picking up around hear . I was sad to here about your fri,. night and well can deffinately relate .

HEARING you say you where trash bagging him , well he deserved it and you handled your self well , sitting down and thinking it through again .

I told you you will always know when YOU are ready for PLAN B ..

YOU sound much stri=onger and confident and that is wonderful , do not loose sight of it even if he stops telling YOU .

SO we talked about the summer being the possiable dead line is that what you are comfortable with ??

If so i told you as long as you are strong enough then I think PLAN A till then is a good thought , THEN you can think of what COFFEE said, PALN B would be the way to go if CONTACT has not stoped .

Leaveing him with that last full summer of fun with the kids and you and having him rember that will be the perfect exit to PLAN B ..

I would think in advance to have PLAN B letter writen and ready to go right after that ..

I would have to say from experiance after that if contact has not stoped and he is home then he is fence sitting and cake eating with no consiquences . YOU are strong enough to put all your ducks in a row and be prepared . PLAN A your a$$ off until then .

I don't want to through anything negitive your way , but you mentioned several times our situations are almost exact . SO I will say this my WS has always said, there is no choice , he chooses me I am his W . YOU know I was told so many times actions speak louder then words .

JUST because he lives here does not mean he chooses me , if he sees her ..

SO please keep an open mind , mine some times closed .

Ok thats it and good luck I will be checking .

ALWAYS rember to live your life with your family no matter what he does , do not be involved with there A . IT IS THERES . THERE HEADACH THERE DRAMA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3

Thanks for checking in..Yes I do think I am strong enough to go through the summer. I do feel if I keep plan A'ing my a$$ off until then, Plan B will not seem so devastating to me and my family. I am taking care of H with kid gloves right now and also making sure I take very good care of myself.

To 3 or anyone else-I have a question about plan A. It is my understanding that I am removing myself from their A. Its their A, their situation and as 3 puts it their drama. Here is my question though-do I totally ignore the fact that there is still contact and seeing of each other or do I question him about them. I have been ignoring the A and this seems to sometimes bother my WH. I think he thinks I am avoiding it. But if I am to question him I dont get anything but babble or no response at all. I am not avoiding it I am just not letting it consume my very being. Any thoughts on this would be great because I just want to make sure I am doing this right..my M is at stake here.

L

I am so confused...are there folks on this board who have had as flagrant of a cake eater as Lisa's H and then had a full complete recovery without ever having to go to Plan B? If so what made the WS come to their senses? How did the BS feel respect for themselves after? How did they ever find their way back to respecting and trusting their spouse?

It's one thing to get lost and have an A...it seems different to me if they have an A...rub spouse face in it and keep seeing and sleeping with the OP! How is that love??? What kind of a person does that, especially one with children and who's been in IC? What type of IC justs sits back and let's this happen???

I'm sorry to if I seem unkind or judgemental but I don't think I would be able to survive the type of pain and humiliation Lisa's H is putting her through!

Lisa..what does he say about his kids...are some of those 5 kids the both of yours or his??? What does he think this is doing to them...he can't possibly think they don't know what's going on???

How are or able to act normal around him???

I FEEL SO BADLY FOR YOU!!!!

<<<<<<BUMP>>>>>

need some answers to the question I posted yesterday 6/16..

Thanks

L

{{{{{{{{{{BUMP}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

JUST for one minute do not think of PLAN A OR PLAN B OR ANYTHING AND PRAY WITH ME ----

DEAR LORD I pray for wisdom to understand my MAN

Love to forgive him

Patience for his moods

Because Lord if I pray for STRENGTH
I'LL BEAT HIM TO DEATH !!! LOL LOL LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

OK had to share with you , and I hope made you laugh for a minute . If I didn't I am sorry .

OK BYE , I am sorry some times I go off the subect of seriuos need to laugh it is good for the soul ..

3,

That is so funny..my mom just e-mailed me that yesterday....I think I should forward it to My WH.

But seriously..I wish someone would answer my questions on this thread about PLAN A. I just want to make sure I am doing it right. I really have not said anything about this whole situation in about 3 days now. I have been doing things for myself...finally got my nails done and highlighted my hair. HOORAY!!! Feel like I am ready for anything. If you talk to anyone..please ask some vets to respond to my PLAN A question.

I will tell you this though H has been very on edge these past couple of days. Not at me though. Last night while H was working he called ME because he needed to talk to me because he has not been doing very well lately and feels very depressed. We talked for awhile and I told him I loved him and was here for him and he said I know.

Today we were outside before he went back to work and his cell phone rang and I knew it was OW by the ring. He didnt hear it. All I said was your phone just rang..he picked up the phone and saw who called made a face and threw the phone across the truck. Could there be trouble in paradise??? Not getting my hopes up though.

3, there is one more factor I need to share with you..now I am the one who has not gotten her friend yet..about 5 days late. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hope recovery is still going well..I read your thread everyday..dont always have time to respond..too many kids..

Take care..HUGS to you
If you get a chance..answer back.

LISA TAKE A TEST ASAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK I am no expert on PLAN A so I hope I do not srew this up.

It is my understand , that YOU should NOT ASK ABOUT A .. NO talk of OW .

IF H wants to talk , listen and if it is to hurtful and disrespectfull tell him so .

I was told that it is not a LB to separte your self from the A .

THIS is his ..

I do wish ORCHID , COFFEE , CHRIS ,ARK some vets would answer this one to give you a more articulate answer .

ALL the rest doing for you are great things , MEETING his needs and setting bounderies .

THROUGHING the cell phone .....HHHHHMMMMMMM

YES could be a fight , could be alot of things ,

Please answer my question???

WHAT is the status of what OW knows ,,

HIM HOME ??? knows about you to working on M ??

MC ??? and what is going on there?

Also what about his IC , ? I mean he has been going awhile is this IC helping ???

PLEASE answer so others get a clear picture to help you better ....

GET an test .. AND not having sex is not a LB , it could be a boundery (I think )

ANY thing from anyone ????

Lisa you might want to consider implementing some of Michelle Weiner Davis's suggestions for the BS on her 180 degree list (they complement Plan A quite nicely). Here's the list:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he will be missing.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient.
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than anywords you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

TMCM,

Thanks that helps very much..I will print it out and read it each morning.

3, to answer some of your questions: Yes OW has known about me since day way. Yes she knows he still lives here. I have talked to her a few times. The last time was about a month ago and I called her and talked to her for about 1 hr. I told her H and I were in MC, she seemed alittle shocked when I said it.

H does not talk to much about IC..I dont ask and then eventually he talks about his sessions. Our next MC appt. is next Friday..Dr. has been away on vacation for the past couple of weeks.

Talk to you later.

L

Lisa here's a link to a post titled Hey CarolKH... can you elaborate on your story? from CarolKH which depicts her experience with the 180 degree approach. I hope it helps.

LISA read the link COFFEE sent you its great !!

I think the 180 really works well and you can still PLAN A it is what I was doing the past 2 weeks when I was hanging on the PLAN B . JUNE dead line . I feel it helps .

AND if you will go to PLAN B end of summer this would be a good time to do it , as your getting stronger and WS is seeing a difference .

OH and how weird is this OW , she knows you are working on M why is she still calling ???

IS WS telling her you 2 are working on it ???

THATS where our situation is very different ,, OW does not know ( or supposedly don't know ) he is home or even with me .

HE does not want her to feel as though he dumped her to go back to W , cause thats what everyone worned her of . (SMART PEOPLE)

ANYWAY read the 180 suggestions , there is web site on it also . DIVORCEBUSTING.COM ( I think thats the web adress )

OH nails and hair great thing ,,, now waxing and facials LOL

Coffee:

Thanks for the post..that was incredible. I get the idea.

L

Hope my radical 180's gave you some ideas. They really worked for me. In fact they were so successful and I was having SO much fun being the object of my H's admiration, that I kinda hated to let him come home, LOL. But I eventually did and he has been back 2 yrs now and we are doing great. Yesterday I even got a little "love" card from him in the mail--it said, "The best part of my day is loving you." Now isn't that sweet?

Carol

Lisa: I wanted to offer you hope and tell you to keep on with the 180, it does work! I am getting closer to reconciliation- and the ow is long gone. I hate what I have been through, but I am stronger for it.

Hope to you, take care of you right now.

Honey

Hey Carol, I'm very happy to see that you're still lurking about, and about your M being a very happy one. Come and say Hi once in awhile, ok?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> To 3 or anyone else-I have a question about plan A. It is my understanding that I am removing myself from their A. Its their A, their situation and as 3 puts it their drama. Here is my question though-do I totally ignore the fact that there is still contact and seeing of each other or do I question him about them. I have been ignoring the A and this seems to sometimes bother my WH. I think he thinks I am avoiding it. But if I am to question him I dont get anything but babble or no response at all. I am not avoiding it I am just not letting it consume my very being. Any thoughts on this would be great because I just want to make sure I am doing this right..my M is at stake here.

<hr /></blockquote>Lisa,

Let me say this loud and clear....NO you do not ignore this affair. A big part of Plan A is CONFRONTATION. Now that doesn't give license to LB, but you must continue to tell your spouse that it hurts you....it hurts his family. Even if it's stating the obvious...DO IT. He must be aware of how his decisions affect you. Don't worry about his response....it is irrelevant babble, but shouldn't stop you from making your feelings and your desires known.

Here are cerri's guidelines for Plan A:

Plan A as Harley meant it to be...

Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)
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Plan A is not about being a nice guy. Plan A is about ending the affair.... being a nice guy is part of that, but only part. That's why confronting and exposing are crucial elements of Plan A... and if you're not doing those things then you can't really say that you're doing Plan A.

I hope this helps!

[ June 20, 2003, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

Yeah...Starfish!! Finally someone who lays out Plan A for what is really is...and what it's not about...it's not about being a doormat! I for the life of me can't imagine a M fully recovering if the A goes on blatantly while the BS is fully aware of it....how can that be love?? How can you ever respect yourself, or feel safe with your spouse if they totally disregard you as a person? Would they even consider inflicting this type of pain on a stranger?? What kind of example is this from both parents to their children????

My understanding from reading and from counseling with SH is the same as yours...Plan A is about stopping the A and the BS starting to follow the MB principles! Recovery can't start while the A is still continuing!

There needs to be timelines!

Sorry if this sounds like a vent but reading Lisa's and 3's stories make me feel so frustrated and makes me so angry at their H's!

FOREVER AND STARFISH ,,,

I am not looking to be confrontational (spelling sucks)LOL

BUT honestly , I am sure it does not make you just angry at our WS but what you are really saying is angry at US .

I do respect all opions and veiws and HARLEY"S princepals .

AND there are plenty here who has never or went through the ongoing A while ws is home .

AND yes I know there are some who did and then went to PLAN B . after doing a "proper" PLAN A .

THE STEPS , I get that but by reading here there are those who MODIFIED and I know there are some who say MODIFING there is no such thing , but they have worked and are in recovery .

YOU see there are different situations and keeping an open mind that someone is not making excuses for their WS but that is really just the facts of there life .

I mean there are some here who go to PLAN B very different then others , it was debaited on this thread and there is 180 that has worked for otheres that some do not belive in either but it worked .

EVERYONE needs to find what they can live with for themself that will bring them in to there own peace to say they tried everything they can DO .

OTHERS veiw it as DOORMAT , cause they feel THEY couldn't do it or tolerate it .

I have freinds who say if my H ever cheated I would pack him up and never look back . I am sure you heard family and freinds say that .

THEY say they wouldn't even tolerate the fact that the A even happened . THEY SAY that alone makes you a DOORMAT for taking back someone who disrespected you in that manner to begin with .

I am here to support LISA in every way , and yes I do give her MVHO .

I always said, to her this hurts and there are other options if she feels ready for them and shpuld be open minded to all suggestions and advice given to her .

BUT she alone will make the choices that best suit her emotional needs .

I am not saying seeing OW is not disrespectful but so was the hole A to begin with .

NOW it caomes down to how much you trust (yes trust) that your WS is telling you .

IF myself or LISA continues down that path then it is a choice , so being an adult I would not place that blame on my WS .

I belive LISA is setting bounderies to try and separate WS and his A .

BLOCKING E-mails , no calls in her home , MC ect.

AND I will say as much as I value all the people here IT feels very hurtful to open yourself up to people in this situation and feel as though you are being condemded for wanting to save your M .

LISA I am sorry for giving you any bad advice or saying anything that may have been judged as enabling you to continue with this .

I did feel that I expressed concern for your choice to let him stay and encouraged you to set deadlines .

Please take care of your self and family .

sorry for the JACK in a sense and the long post .

ON my thread I feel that people there gave me other avnues to help me rid myself of the drama of the A that was going on , and helped me to see I can have my life move forward while WS was in fog , so much like PALN B except he is here for it .

MY N/C is very new still and could very well be false recovery so I can do nothing but love H and live our life . AND if it is false then I will take it from there .

only 12 days so there is a LONG raod ahead and I am sure not with out alot more ups and downs .

3 I am not trying to be judgemental...I know that everyone's circumstances are different to some degree. I know that not all of us have gone through an A that continued openly after dday. I also know that I used to be one of those people who said if my H ever had an A I would kick him to the curb. I have learned the hard way not to judge someone unless you've walked in their shoes.

I know we each have to set our own boundaries of what we can stand. That's why on your thread I tried to post some questions..some of these questions I asked myself to come up with my boundaries. It boiled down to how much could I tolerate without losing myself and how much could I tolerate and not ending up losing all respect and love for my H. I had to ask myself what would be the turning point where my love wasn't love anymore but an obsession.

If you read some of my early posts (December and January) on the Recovery board you will see some of the anguish I went through sorting all this out.

I also have a recent thread on that board about getting frustrated reading MB boards sometimes. I received lots of oppions early on while posting here..some made since right away, some angered me, some hurt me....I listened to everything and then sorted through for myself. However, some of the posters who at the time I thought were harsh JL and Pendragon come to mind...ended up being right...I just wasn't ready to see it at the time.

That old "hindsight" thing.

Just remember that even though everyone's circumstances are a little unique...we've all been through the crushing pain...we are still here because we need help or hope to help.

Best Wishes!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> BUT honestly , I am sure it does not make you just angry at our WS but what you are really saying is angry at US .
<hr /></blockquote>3,

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I am angry at all. Lisa had had a question that went unanswered for several days, and I wanted to do my best to clearly answer her. I've been around here a long time, and have a good knowledge of these principles...and felt like she was really looking for some clear information. I am so sorry if you felt that I was angry in any way. I didn't mention you at all...and don't know your situation, so have no ill feelings for you. The guidelines I gave for Plan A...are actually cerri's who is a very well respected MB coach with her own site, who communicates with the Harley's daily, so I felt very safe in posting that for her. Sorry if this upset you in some way, but I assure I never post in anger to anyone.

I don't beleive that Starfish meant to be disrespectful by posting Cerri's excellent post on what Plan A is, just the opposite. I say this because so many times we see others erroneously telling others (newbies especially) what Plan A is when in reality they are showing exactly how to be a doormat.

1. Avoiding all love busters is not being a doormat. It is being an adult and showing thru example to our children how adults are supposed to behave. We are demonstrating that we can overcome our base animal instincts for the purpose of achieving a noble goal (saving our marriages and families).

2. Meeting as many EN's as the WS allows is not being a doormat because we are showing the WS that we are NOT who they thought we were. If a divorce is inevitable, then the onus of possible regret and future relationship failures will be on the WS, while the BS will have the peace of mind that s/he did her/his best and the knowledge on how to make the her/his relationship better than the last.

Following the MB principles is NOT easy because they run counter to our base animal instincts. It takes more guts to implement them than possibly anything else we've done in our lives.

Unfortunately, the devil is in the details on what to do in particular situations without violating MB principles. That is why practical advice like Michelle Weiner Davis's 180 degree list and CarolKH's story, helps us by demonstrating what to do (and what not to do) during our spouses A's. I sometimes wish Dr Harley could writte another book detailing how the BS should respond to specific situations with his/her WS for it would certainly clarify a great deal of the confusion, especially with regards to Plan A/Plan B.

Lisa,

How are you? Give an update if you can.

Praying for you.

Love in Christ,
Miss M