Name Change for ClaireL --> ENIGMA - Marriage Builders® Forums

I just realised that you can change the title of a thread ... so no need to make up a new thread for a different topic!!! Have included significant posts below, and will just add to this one thread from now on.

How Can Plan A Possibly Help?
Is WH Living Out Someone Else's Script?
Now up to "Trial Separation"
Reply to WH's Letter in Plan B?
Plan B for 2 weeks, WH wants to Talk
Replied to WH in Plan B, think it went OK
Discovery of Porn Addiction??
Just Wanting all of this to Stop
WH tests Plan B for 5th time
A Moment of Clarity
WH Sends a Birthday Present
What do you make of this? More fog babble?

I am a bit of a mess.

I am in Plan B - now in Week 10.

I phoned WH's best friend B last night, and told him all about the affair. He works with WH, had an inkling about what was going on, but had only been told half truths by WH. WH has not introduced OW as his girlfriend, and has been telling all who ask that she lives with her partner. Needless to say, my husband's friend B was stunned. I don't think he believed me for about the first 5 minutes, then he started to piece some things together, eg

*OW brought WH a HUGE birthday cake to his workplace last yeat that raised a few eyebrows. WH refused to take my homebaked carrot cake in(which they love each year!!!)

*She has been visiting him @ work

* B also told me about an earlier suspected affair with a female co-worker. WH and this woman would leave work together on Fridays for drinks. WH always told me he was going to the pub with B. B says he and WH only went to the pub on a handful of occasions, but most of the time it was WH and the female co-worker.

* WH has spread it around that I am shunning him, conveniently leaving out the Plan B detail about his continued contact with OW.

I was a very busy girl ...... I also rang WH's mother (my MIL) whom I haven't spoke to since DDay +10. MOre lies from WH, including
"Claire just shut me out of her life and won't talk to me" (only 1/2 truth - conveniently leaving out the bit about NC with OW.

MIL angry about me talking to the vicar who married me (WH's uncle) because she said it created trouble in their family.

MIL confirmed that she is e-mailing OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Says it is between her and OW to maintain a correspondence. Says that OW is keeping her informed of WH's activities and also talking about herself - introducing herself.

I asked MIL how she thinks she will handle meeting OW when MIL + FIL visit in Sept. MIL says she wants to see what OW is like - see if she is a good enough person for her son!!!!!!!!!

Really feel disappointed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Can't believe how my inlaws have let me down.

E-mailed her a copy of the plan B letter I sent to WH. Explained that I am not communicating with WH because he continues to keep his relationship with OW going. I asked MIL how she would deal with an affair situation with her husband, and how she would want to be treated by her inlaws. She basically said I am lucky they are still talking to me!!!!!

I am feeling kicked in the head. Really awful. I have nothing to lose from here on.

On the plus side of things, WH's friend, B, said that OW was F***ing ugly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But I knew that already

[ August 12, 2003, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Enigma ]

ClaireL,

You know the truth, he also know the truth and HE knows the truth ... that is enough.

Don't let him hurt you ...
Don't play into his game ...
DON'T SNOOP or INQUIRY ABOUT HIM ...

This is where plan B is usefull to protect your sanity ... get ready to move on w/ or w/o him.

-rh-

DON'T SNOOP or INQUIRY ABOUT HIM ...

Does phoning his friend and my MIL qualify as snooping or inquiring? I just wanted to tell the world the truth!!

I have been consoling myself with he knows the truth/ I know the truth ... but I am so sick of the lies and disrespect.

A thought just occurred to me: My MIL is enabling the affair by continuing a dialogue with OW. I really want to Plan B MIL too. Anything wrong with this idea???

Heeeeelp! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[ July 21, 2003, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: ClaireL ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Does phoning his friend and my MIL qualify as snooping or inquiring? I just wanted to tell the world the truth!!

I have been consoling myself with he knows the truth/ I know the truth ... but I am so sick of the lies and disrespect.<hr /></blockquote>ClaireL,

Yes, you are inquring on him ... it is only will hurt you. The only news you want to receive is from him willing to work on M otherwise don't. If people tells you about him ... change the subject, I know it is hard. If people ask you info, teel the fact. Your actions clearly not healty for you, you are reacting his actions. You let him hurt you at this point and you need to stop it. I only listen to my ExW/OM news but I don't inquiry or ask ... sometime I just laugh it off and don't enagage on the gossiping.

One consolation for you ... his A won't last, only 5% chances and worst there is almost impossible to have fullfiling R based on A. My ExW paints a happy picture with OM ... my 2D told me that mommy is not happy. Latest episode OM has a bruise ribs ... consistent with physical madness where ExW had a black eye and OM had a teeth mark on the back of his arm (2x times within 1yr). The guilt will be the wall between them if he has any. If he doesn't have guilty feeling, you know that he would do it again to her. You don't need to prove anything to anyone. Let his actions speak from him ... and if your freinds or family are blind or ignorant ... you should be glad to know who are your "true" freinds and families that you could count on.

My ExW kept my 2D on Fathers day to "teach" me lesson. (She didn't pick 2 D for Mothers Day for whatever excuse she has and blame it on me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , telling eveyone that I kept them). I did not react and I did not enagage ... I only told my 2 D that everyday with them is Fathers Days to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . She makes a fool of herself and putting a wedge between her & 2 D. My 2 D knew the truth !. WS's script is to justify their actions ... and make themself as a victim and make you as the villain. Sit back and watch ... it is like watching soap opera on TV,you could cry & get mad but you can't be or don't want to be in it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

In Plan A, WS has full control of 'coaster ride. In Plan B, BS basically tells WS no more 'coaster ride and let WS continues the ride with whoever wants to (OP & others). If you are still in 'coaster and not leveling off, you have work to do. You have to take control back (life). He is not the center no more, you are !. He hurt you onced, don't let him hurt you again and again with his actions.

-rh-

Redhat,

Thank you for pointing out that I am still on the roller coaster ride. Maybe that is why I am feeling so miserable and sick at present. What do you think of my Plan B letter to inlaws?

I think I should Plan B them also, let them know that I think their action/treatment of me is not acceptable. I was going to send copies to WH, OW and inlaws.

BTW, is it Redhat because of Linux? My WH was right into Linux ...

Dear FIL and MIL,

This is a hard letter for me to write, but I have to do it. Thank you so much for talking with me on Monday (Sunday your time). It was a difficult conversation, as I was so sure that you had locked me out of your family. I was relieved to find out the truth, that you had been thinking of me, but had been experiencing "technical difficulties" which resulted in a lack of communication. I did so much enjoy being a part of your family, but now the hard part ....

On Monday, I thought a lot about the conversation I had with you. Especially the part about the ongoing dialogue that you maintain with OW I appreciate the fact that you are so concerned about WH and that she is helping you by keeping you informed about him. However, I find it hard to accept that you would willingly participate in forming a relationship with this woman. I am sure that she has been most respectful and hasn't bad-mouthed me etc ..... She can't really afford to if she is trying to start a relationship with my inlaws. It is just too hard for me to maintain a relationship with you MIL and FIL, knowing that you are welcoming this woman into your family in my place.

I will miss you. I love you as much as my own parents. (Maybe more!!) I don't want to lose you as my family, and I am not turning my back on you, I am merely protecting myself from more pain and hurt.

As I said to WH, I don't want this woman to be in my life, and I say the same thing to you too. I would appreciate it if you didn't contact me while you still intend to form/maintain a relationship with OW.

Please reply to this e-mail to at least acknowledge that you have received it.

Love from Claire.

[ July 21, 2003, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: ClaireL ]

Good letter, Claire but don't expect them to respond. They probably will settle for being enablers and if so, that OW is a shrewd one. They had better lock up their valuables.

Who knows what that OW can do within arms reach.

You are wise to keep yourself at a safe distance. That way when they find stuff missing, they won't blame you.

take care,
L.

What do you think about cc-ing it to:
OW and also WH???

Hello ClaireL

Just when we think it can not get worse... IT DOES! I mean, what's up with your in laws? how they do that to you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Well I can bet that will taught you some of the value they got into your H right?
At this times YES I would advice as redhat relax, take some popcorns and enjoy the movie... the movie is the ride and you are looking at it from the outside!

It seems all you support system, at least from H's side (in laws) are also in the fog!!! And by now I beleive you know that there is not much we can do to fix that. Yes I know is crap to be there but again... since you can not do nothing about it just work on yourself!

You are young enough to start another life! And although you wanted it to be with H... lets be clear on this.. this is not the man you wanted to spend your life with right?

About the email I don't like this line...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Please reply to this e-mail to at least acknowledge that you have received it.
<hr /></blockquote>I mean they are in the fog! forget their answer they will receive it relax!

And I don't see your point in sending it to OW.

Take care

Thanks Matilde. I sent it to the inlaws only. No doubt they will tell their son. Probably even forward it to him. Not within Plan B for me to send anything to him so, I won't do so. As for OW, well you are right. What would it achieve for me to send it to her? Give her more to complain to WH about.

They say they don't condone the affair with her, but actions speak louder than words. The message they give to OW loud and clear is that she is accepted in their house. They are so stupid!!

Claire,

Don't waste any postage on OW (not even an e-mail). She ain't worth it.

L.

Claire,

These people are exactly what their names imply, inlaws. They are being loyal to their son even when he is immoral, etc. Come on???? What type of good parent does that, condones adultery????

I would stay clear of the whole mess, obviously they are morally vile. I apologize for sounding blunt here, but my inlaws are a real sore thumb for me, my fil is a super enabler, and I am sick and tired of him.

Find peace and happiness within you for now, and wait for affair to die eventually. If you withdraw and continue to plan b, then wh will be forced to get needs met from this slime of an ow... gee that will be difficult, right? They will eventually fight and explode/implode.

Hope to you, Honey

I got a reply to my e-mail from my MIL:

"By the way, FIL says that I was wrong in starting a friendship with OW. In hindsight you may both be right"

Also, they are going to try to help me to get the legal separation issues sorted by writing a letter to WH.

MIL also says that she understands much better now why I HAD to drop communication with WH.

I think my gamble paid off here. This whole process is teaching me a helluvalot about sticking up for myself standing up for what is right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Remember to be gracious. They are admitting they were wrong. Some people never do that.

The inlaws are out of the fog. E-mailed WH and also cc-ed to me:

"If a separation is what you really want then you will need to communicate with Claire honestly!I have had a long phone call from Claire. She had not received any of my e-mails and thought I had not wanted to have any thing to do with her.

You had also told her I was e-mailing OW and having phone calls and enjoying her very much. This hurt Claire a lot since she thought we were not e-mailing her any more and didn't seem to want to have any thing to do with her. Please do not use Dad or I to hurt Claire, this is not about how we feel about Claire or OW.

This is to do with how YOU feel about Claire.
You are now trying to go on with your life and that is fine, but, you must remember YOU left Claire and on that day you chose not to be married to her. This is the hardest thing you have ever had to do and since Claire had not see it coming, it is hard for her too! For now Claire can not see you coming back and is also going to TRY to move on with out you, if she has too. She has to tidy up one
or two loose ends.

Can you let her know the day you left. She also needs you to sign-off on the lease of the house she is in, as she will be leaving there. She has also asked for her wedding ring back, and
you have said you would give it back, and you should!

There are one or two other things she needs you to do and you know what they are. She has told me she does not want a divorce and will not be putting in for it. Also she does not wish to talk to you about personal things while you are still seeing OW.(And Dad and I think that that is only fair. If you are with OW there is no way you could possibly be thinking of getting back with Claire.)
BUT, these are things that you need to take care of, it is the business side of a marriage and since she is thinking of leaving. I guess you know you should take care of it? "

I guess they did come through for me after all. They are no longer the terrible inlaws I thought that they had become. We'll see what his response is.

I am not holding my breath. He is probably still fog ridden and will respond angrily as if they are interfering. All I really care about is getting away from all of this.

[ July 22, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: ClaireL ]

ClaireL,

I missed your threads, I was busy working from home while become Mr.Mom too.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ClaireL:
What do you think of my Plan B letter to inlaws?<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I am against it in general but it turns out good for you. It proves that you know your IL better.

You should sent a copy to OW per Plan B letter as prescibed. You will be a threat to her ... and chances of OW LB'ed WH are big. Your WH might/might not show it to OW. If he doesn't ... it would creates questions between them. If he does, OW would see extra sentence that would make her LB'ed to WH.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />BTW, is it Redhat because of Linux? My WH was right into Linux ...<hr /></blockquote>Yeap, the underdog and won't go away easy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

You always have control over your reaction to WH's actions ... specially in plan B. It forces you not to engange at all.

-rh-

-rh-

Actually, I am deciding now to go dark. Real Dark.

No more contact with anyone associated with WH and OW, unless of course the inlaws contact me, but if that happens, I will keep them off the topic of WH.

Inlaws letter to WH was greeted with a LOT of hostility and more lies from WH. He is now calling me manipulative, a liar and saying that I only contacted them for my own purposes and that I had ignored them 'til now (completely illogical given that they TOLD him that the lack of contact was due to them mis-addressing their e-mails!). He is twisting and distorting the truth beyond belief. Every little thing I said to my inlaws which they relayed in their letter to him was twisted and turned by WH.

The inlaws are trying to do the right thing, and for now I have them in my corner. However, this won't last. WH will keep repeating his lies until they eventually believe them.

And then there's WH's meddling friend, M. The man who ended his first marriage via an exit affair, and then married a woman who had done the same. He is WH's friend, confidante and advisor. The only one outside of the family who knows what is going on. He is bitter about his own mistakes and seems to be filling WH's head with rubbish about me and my motivations WHICH ARE SIMPLY NOT TRUE. Friend M himself believes that the truth is simply a perception (his exact words in a conversation some time ago)

Direct quote from M: "As she is a game player, she will not have changed the colour of her spots at all - she had the chance to undergo a major change in her behavioural tool set but threw it away when she started to solely blame OW for your break up" I am not a mindgames person!! I never have been! OW leaves me for dead in this arena.

M has read the Plan B letter, so it is clear that he is not describing me...... I think he is describing his XW here. All along he has been telling my WH that I am just like his XW. WH doesn't know which way is up, and is just letting this man fill his head with rubbish. Puts my Plan A out the window as long as he is under this man's influence.

This situation just sucks. M is a truly evil man. Unfortunately WH has dug himself into a position where this is the only "friend" he has, apart from OW.

Although I have legal issues to get sorted, all this seems to do is wind WH up even more and make him fire back at me.

Is my WH saying unusually nasty things about me? Or do they all come up with similar mean/untrue statements?

Do they usually get this angry? What does the anger signify? How long will it last?

So the answer is to go completely dark. Deep covert Plan B Ops. For my own protection, and to stop drawing enemy fire.

Your husband's behavior is typical when his lies are NO LONGER believed by family/friends. He is upset because he can no longer have his parent's live in "FOGLAND" with him. He is being told to take responsibility for his actions and to be accountable for his actions, he doesn't want to. It is easier to BLAME the BS for the WS choices. Going to a DEEP PLAN B is what is best to protect the love you do have for him.

I realise how absurd his lies are, but as for people not believing them ..... well I really do worry that people will start to believe what he says. That said, I know the truth, God knows the truth and God has the last say at the end of all this anyway. So I shouldn't worry about what everyong thinks. I am kidding myself if I think I can get help from anyone else (inlaws, friends) in helping sort this mess out. It simply comes down to WH and I in the end.

I am so Pi$$ed off by this stupid friend of WH's. He has a lot of influence over WH, he is feedingWH a script and there it NOTHING I can do about it. I just hope that WH comes to his senses about this man (assuming my perception of things is accurate and I am not the manipulative game player which Friend M has pegged me for)

That is why Deep Covert Plan B is necessary. Gives him nothing to comment on, disables his defences, defeats the lies.

Why not? Many people are going to live in Fogland with my own H.

What M says doesn't make much sense. Why does being a "game player" (which only means you are involved in the situation, by the way, and does not necessarily mean you are playing mind games) mean you can't "change your spots"? Many game players do change their spots. All of this nonsense may be giving your H the fantasy that he is living in a guerilla operation where each manouever is complicated and important -- a military strategy.

I'm with you. Go dark. Visit your in-laws and be pleasant. Take them a basket of cookies. Don't discuss H or OW. Don't give M and H anything to feed on.

Sometimes discussing the BS is what keeps the A partners feeling real and very important.

ClaireL,

WH is not happy with his current life and he tries to sick it on you. If you "go dark" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , he would have no one to blame but OW & himself. He tries to convince the whole world that you are the bad one and to convince himself that A is justified. You know what, you could only beleive soo much your own [censored]. When he is alone ... when he see himself in the mirror ... I do beleive he sees hurt & lost soul.

-rh-

I FINALLY feel as if I am moving on. No drive-bys for about 3 weeks (I think!). Last contact was 2 weeks ago concerning separation date and getting WH to sign himself off the lease for our flat ...which he STILL hasn't done, I might add!

I went out to a party on Friday night with a few friends and had a real blast. Reminded myself that I am only 29, have a good job, no kids, weigh only 59 kgs (infidelity diet!) and currently have a great haircut. There is a lot to be smiling about <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> OK, OK, I got hit on by a couple of nice guys, but although it was flattering, all I could think was "hmmm ... I wonder who you're cheating on ... " <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I can almost taste the distrust that I have developed as a result of this infidelity episode, and the subsequent breakdown of my marriage.

Do I want WH back? No, not really. For all of the reasons discussed in previous posts. But I am kind of stuck in a limbo position. To have to wait 2 years for a divorce (this is the law in NZ) seems ridiculous. (I will be nearly 31!) If WH and I had not married, and had simply lived together for 5 years, then there would not be this manatory 2 years wait in purgatory.

Anyway, I am feeling more self assured day by day. I am really feeling as if it is WH who has lost out here; for a long time I was merely telling myself this, but now I actually believe it. I am not the one with anger and depression issues. I am not the one who is carrying the burden of this huge secret (he has only told 1 person - the wonderful wayward friend M). I am not the one who has to face up to family and friends and try to explain my behaviour. I am not the one who has to try to explain myself to my love interests, hoping that this wee incident doesn't scare them away! I am not the one who is stuck with OW!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

sounds like you are doing the right things, and reaping the rewards...getting healthier.

Your communication with in-laws worked out ok, so this is late...but I would have encouraged it as well. The key factor in this area is revealing truth to everyone...family, friends, co-workers etc. Affairs thrive on secrecy, and fog is fueled by ignorance. It is one of the few "rights" and helpful proactive actions a BS can take (and strongly encouraged by MB, because you have absolutely nothing to lose). If revelations "seem" to turn out badly, makes no difference, cause the outcome would have been no different (a marriage cannot recover properly if the affair not revealed to all, the foundation is secrecy which is no foundation at all)...best to let the truth set you free...and if the others do not want to follow, you leave em behind. In your case the truth was helpful to the in-laws, and had a healthy outcome..this could not happen without your taking action.

From what you have posted, seems like you have done all you can, and I agree with the going dark until the circumstances change substantially (basically NC, and a committment to positive efforts with you). It is time to focus on your life, learning, exercsing, growing in ways healthy for you...take whatever legal action necessary to protect yourself. One other thing, due to the good relationship with in-laws, and because you are still married..it might be helpful for you to regularly (but not often), keep them posted (chatty little positive missives)on your life....with NO references to marriage, their son, etc. Your H may (or may not) read these things and have an affect on his fog. And perhaps if opportunity arises for lunch (or whatever) see them occassionally (again no talk about marriage or son..telling them you need to stay away from those topics until son takes positive action).

[ July 29, 2003, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

One of the reasons WH got away with the A for so long is because his parents live in a different country, 15 hours flight time. They are coming to visit in September for 2 weeks - probably won't see them unless it is alone. I was out of touch with them for four months Jan-April, then had 1 phone conversation post DDay, then nothing more until I phoned them last week. They knew WH was planning on leaving back in DECEMBER!! Although, it wasn't until talking to them post DDay that they knew about OW.

To start up a dialogue with them seems a little odd at this stage ..... But there is nothing to lose really.

Surprises!!

WH sent back my wedding ring

he also signed himself off the lease for the house

AND supplied me with the date that he moved out of the house.

It was two weeks earlier than I had originally thought! 23rd Jan vs 6th Feb. Which truly stinks, because
(1) it means that he had already jacked up his new place while I was still here at New Year (our wedding anniversary is 2nd Jan)
(2) when he came to visit me on my leave weekend (Jan 24-27) he had already moved out.

Anyway, he wants his half of the bond money back, and I am in two minds over this. The form he just signed relinquishes all claims over the bond. So legally, I don't have to give him a cent. Morally, however, it is his. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

The only other piece of information I need now is his financial position. Unlikely to get this, however.

Look what arrived in my inbox. Obviously a mistake. MIL's e-mail to OW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Hi *********
How are you?
Thank you for your e-mail I have had a quick look at it as I have to go to work soon.
To me ****** is perfect. It is he who tries to tell me he is not.And as a mother I have to say it is not working I think he is wonderful and, yes, perfect.
Claire is Claire and I am learning to except her the way she is. I don't know if she is useing me or not but if she was I could not blame her any way.
I was sorry ***** got up set about my e-mail to him I was trying to tell him I was trying to see both sides, and that he needed to take care of some of the busness side of things and not let them linger on and on.
I will look forward to seeing you in Auckland soon.
Love *******.

Screw keeping up with the inlaws. Only a week ago my MIL was saying that both her husband (FIL) and I were right about her carrying on communication with OW. Plan B to the inlaws.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ClaireL:
To me ****** is perfect. It is he who tries to tell me he is not.And as a mother I have to say it is not working I think he is wonderful and, yes, perfect.<hr /></blockquote>This speaks volumes. Take her at her word on this. Everyone else knows it's crap...MIL obviously has her "blinders" on. So be it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ClaireL:

Claire is Claire and I am learning to except her the way she is. I don't know if she is useing me or not but if she was I could not blame her any way.<hr /></blockquote>Now you know her true colours. Most likely she was plannning to use you for info she could pass along to her son. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ClaireL:

Screw keeping up with the inlaws. Only a week ago my MIL was saying that both her husband (FIL) and I were right about her carrying on communication with OW. Plan B to the inlaws.<hr /></blockquote>I agree, cut them lose. They are not being straight with you. You don't need that kind of grief.

Having had HUGE in-law issues both pre and post d-day I can tell you from experience that your in-laws will always "stand by" their child FIRST. It doesn't matter what that child has done. I know this fact doesn't surprise you. IMHO, I think you are most upset that your in-laws lied to and decieved you and you have every right to feel that way.

What would I do?? I would reply to MIL with the text of her note to OW and state in my own note...

"Dear MIL,

I don't think you intended for me to read this. Having said that, it is readily apparent to me how you feel about me. Maybe someday you will understand how truly hurtful this whole situation has been to me. In the future I will no longer be corresponding with yourself or FIL.

Regards,
ClaireL"

If FIL has a separate email addy I'd forward all of this to him as well.

Claire,

I am dealing with a similar issue. WH is now living in another country with OW. FIL lives in the same country and has hosted OW at his house several times and she may even have gone along with them on a family vacation to the seaside (not sure). I was devastated that FIL would enable WH's A - I feel this is disrespectful and deliberately hurtful to me. BUT... FIL will no longer speak to me because I was disrespectful to him because I called him a S** o* B**** when I found out he was hosting OW at his home. Long and short of it, FIL believes WH when WH tells him all of the terrible things about me and believed WH's lie that he and OW were "just friends" until I made him leave in early June. The fact that in the past 3 days, I have found numerous e-mails and pictures saying otherwise from as early as June 2002 would make no matter if I were to send them to FIL - even in black and white, FIL will believe and support WH because WH is his son.

I want so badly to send FIL copies of the e-mails and pictures OW sent WH, but in the end it would do no good. I am better off having no contact with FIL. Maybe someday, he will come to the realization that yes, what I called him was disrespectful of him, but what he (FIL) did with regard to OW is even more disrespectful and deserving of an apology to me.

Regards,

BB

WOW, that was a GREAT e-mail the IL's sent! I'm happy they did. I know I would NOT get the same... my MIL doesn't even speak to me. I stole her baby...

Alright. I'll be the dissenting voice. Your in-laws thought in retrospect that it was a mistake to communicate with OW. Obviously, they are under pressure to communicate with OW anyway, and they cracked. They would have to if they are going to stay in touch with their son.

Obviously from the context of the note, OW accused you of "using" them. They deflected the issue, saying if you are, they could hardly blame you. It looks like they are -- mildly, noncommitally -- defending you to her, saying they accept you (probably in the context of OW's accusations, whatever those might be).

They don't want to take sides. It sounds like OW might be LBing them. Let her.

I wouldn't respond quickly. Wait. Wait a day or a few days. Get some more posts. Think it through. Try to see it from their side. Then OW's side. Then H's side. Then your own again.

Don't you LB them. I'm not sure Plan B would be a good idea with the in-laws. It seems like it might serve OW's interests -- therefore not yours. Maybe a Plan A with them -- knowing they are not on your "side," knowing they are going to ccommunicate with OW, not being naive.

Again, think it through. Bide your time.

[ July 31, 2003, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]

Claire -- Rereading the letter, I really do think that ILs are caught in a bind. They are being mild in their language, but obviously defending themselves for appearing to take your side.

Try to reconstruct what OW's email to them must have said, from their responses. From the bland opening ("How are you?") and the cursory glance they admit they gave OW's email, it sounds like they are trying to blow her off...or cool her down.

Here's one possible way to act: how about send it back to them, with the simple comment -- "I don't think you intended me to read this --"

If YOU have no reaction, then there will be no way for you to be a target. They will have to imagine your response, rather than respond to your anger, etc. Let the ILs do the explaining. You be gracious and generous of their motives.

I would be very careful. It does sound like they are caught in the middle, and you want them to be on your side. If you LB them, as it appears your H and OW are doing, you won't win any points.

[ July 31, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]

Claire,
I think sometimes In-laws get in the fog with Whs. I was never close to my sister in law or mother in law and felt they babied my ex-WH WAY too much, but when the affair happened, it was really confirmed. According to my MIL it was me who made ex walk on eggshells, me who should be more understanding. From D-day my SIL and MIL made no attempts to contact me. My FIL did not either but he at least talked to me when I called and acted like he felt ex-WH was wrong. My ex-MIL even got upset because when I moved out she thought I took the George Foreman grill ($20) that she gave us. I didn't. But the point is, she didn't care about how her son had hurt me because he was her baby. She did his laundry, bought him food, cooked, took his car to get serviced and paid, etc. She just didn't get it, or understand the magnitude of what he had done. I think someday she will, because you reap what you sow. As soon as the pregnancy of OW was announced- even FIL thought ex should divorce me and marry OW to raise the child- that that would take more "faith" than staying with me?!?!!? So I had to cut all ties with them. I only miss FIL but I know that it is not even appropriate to talk to him. It is sad but blood IS thicker than mud and it just doesn't matter sometimes what someone does- their family will defend to the end, without acknowledging the breakdown and the problems. I'm sorry your inlaws don't see what they are doing.

Thanks for the opinions. I have cooled down a bit. It was just a stupid error on MIL's part. I think that they are caught in the middle, and I do think that MIL is just keeping in touch with OW because of the extra info about WH. So who is using who here???

I have tried to imagine the letter that OW must have sent to the ILs, and have to go with AM's opinion.

It seems that:

* OW sent them a long-winded (angry?) e-mail about my contact with the ILs and their subsequent email to WH asking him to get on with sorting out the legal matters. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
"Thank you for your e-mail I have had a quick look at it as I have to go to work soon. "

* OW has been accusing me of badmouthing WH to the ILs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
"To me ****** is perfect. It is he who tries to tell me he is not." MIL just corrected OW on my behalf, it seems. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

*OW had a go at badmouthing me by saying that I am using the ILs. HOW DARE SHE!!!!! She is most definitely using the ILs!!!
"Claire is Claire and I am learning to except her the way she is. I don't know if she is useing me or not but if she was I could not blame her any way." Thanks Mom! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

* OW must have said to ILs that WH was upset with their advice on sorting out the "business side of marriage". Not a smart move to be telling parents how to do their job! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
"I was sorry ***** got up set about my e-mail to him I was trying to tell him I was trying to see both sides, and that he needed to take care of some of the busness side of things and not let them linger on and on"

Sooooo ..... Who is looking a bit insecure now?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The only bit that really got to me was the piece about looking forward to meeting OW. How could MIL say this?!!! Or was she being sarcastic? And what about the "Love MIL" at the end. I never sign my correspondence with Love unless I really mean it, maybe other people aren't as careful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Obviously MIL usings 'love MIL' very loosely. She's never even met the OW.

"Love" is a conventional formality for ending a note. I wouldn't use it either, but many people do. "I look forward to meeting you..." Hmmmmm... Could be she was just trying to soften the message, in which she is defensive. Could be she's bowing to what appears to be inevitable. But if OW is LBing already, I don't think they are setting up a happy event.

I think you're right on with this one, Claire.

Hey, Claire, your reading of the "perfect" line was crackerjack -- I hadn't picked that up, but you are probably right.

And OW hasn't even met MIL yet! Wow! LBing before you even meet someone! I really think the "look forward to meeting you" is meant to be conciliatory rather than sincere, but I'm guessing.

I'm still pondering what to do with WH's share of the bond money. I think I should just ignore his request.

I don't actually hold the bond money - it is held by the landlord, and so infact, I can't request that it be returned. WH must do so himself.

Should I let WH know this? Since I dealt with most household financial matters, he would have no clue about having to speak to the landlord about the bond.

If I am in a deep dark Plan B, then I mustn't contact him to pass this information on. I just don't want him & OW to use this as another thing against me. ("Claire refused to refund my bond money ... yap yap yap")

Maybe I should try conveying this via the inlaws?? But then that would seem as if I was using them .....

Maybe e-mail to WH cc-ed to ILs too? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I know this seems like an awful lot of fuss, but I am thinking twice (even 3 times) before I act these days. I've had enough of things blowing up in my face.

Don't know what to do about bond money, but I would definitely leave ILs out. Sounds like they are already on your side, but caught in the middle already. That's a card you might need to play elsewhere.

Well, even in plan B there is still the business side of a M that has to be resolved. Regarding his part of the bond...can this matter be handled through lawyers at this point? If not, I'd send a very brief, clear and concise email to WH telling him how to get his bond back ON HIS OWN. I certainly wouldn't do it for him (you mentioned you can't anyway). DO not reply to any email he may subsequently send to you. IMHO, I wouldn't involve the IL's either.

[ August 02, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: mgm ]

ClaireL, Well, I certainly have a totally different opinion of IL's. Remember that blood is thicker than water. And whatever your H decides to do, they're going to agree with him if only to continue their relationship with son.
You might want to change the name from inlaws to outlaws!
I would be very careful of what you reveal to them, in fact, not trust at all!
I have found too many people will stab you in the back while smiling to your face.
I don't think they're in a fog at all. They know what son is doing and it's wrong. But most parents will not buck the system when it comes to doing right and wrong and losing their relationship with child. It's life!
Why don't you ask landlord to contact your H about the bond? Landlord has a duty to return it and to whom it goes is his responsibility!
Give your landlord the contact info and ask him to do it!
I used to be a very trusting person, believeing in good in everyone. But at age 61, trials galore and seeing that even closest family will kick you when down, I've learned you can only trust yourself! And God if you have a religious belief!
I would suggest minimal contact with IL's. Better for you to stay dark from them too or semi dark.
Just my own opinion but from well time traveled here on earth!
LouLou

LadyLou, I think both are true. They don't seem to approve of what he's doing -- but ultimately, of course, they are going to stay on good terms with their son, whatever the cost and their personal opinions. It would be naive to assume otherwise.

In my personal opinion, they are doing what they can. But no, Claire shouldn't unburden herself to them and trust them utterly. But a good Plan A with them might help.

Think of it as a military campaign, and it all becomes less personal.

??Military campaign??
The success or failure of military campaigns usually rests in the fact that there is a de-humanization of the enemy. It also depends on villifying(?sp) the enemy to justify your actions more "firmly". The enemy is usually a stranger; nameless, faceless...this makes destruction much easier. In this case, viewing this as a military campaign turns it into a game. This is not a game, these are people's lives. These are people that Claire loved and trusted...believed in. I don't think viewing this as a military campaign is appropriate or necessary.

The whole point of plan A & plan B to to make positive changes in yourself. To make yourself a happier or healthier person, to recognize and correct past mistakes. It's not a game designed to win back a WS. It's about making yourself a more "desireable" person to be around.

Make changes for yourself and not someone else. Do not underestimate the parent-child bond. Do not think IL's will "side" with you because they know their child's behaviour is wrong...they won't.

To paraphrase the immortal and ancient words of Tsun Tsu..."keep your friends close and your enemies closer". I am hoping this is the point the was previously trying to be made.

Pretty much. By "military campaign," I mean that, from my reading of these posts, people's emotions tend to get in the way of what needs to be done, particularly in Plan A. You have to work to be kind and friendly when you are feeling anything but. You have to not unburden yourself even when you want to (that one's hard for me). You have to look at people's aims and motives and tactics impartially, without letting hysterical emotions in the way.

The military campaign analogy helps me be more impartial -- less in the "How COULD they!" emotions, and more in the emotions about how to achieve my goals. It makes me more accepting of the inevitability that my friends ARE going to invite H and OW to their homes, and that my best strategy is to be friendly and let H and OW go haywire, not me.

Ladies, Ladies!!

I can see where you are both coming from. It helps to depersonalise these events so that we can think rationally about how to make the best decision. If we react out of emotion, rather than reason, then we will probably do the wrong thing. Afterall, that's how the WS became a WS.

Military campaign analogy ..... well, the objective is not always to destroy the enemy. I have thought of this interms of deciding of likely Courses of Action and likely consequences, however, the goal is not to manipulate WH, but to try to avoid more hassles.
Make changes for yourself and not someone else.
My objective is to learn what went wrong with my marriage, and become a wiser, more resiliant person ....

Do not underestimate the parent-child bond. Do not think IL's will "side" with you because they know their child's behaviour is wrong...they won't
I know that any friendly behaviour from the ILs is temporary only. I always liked them as people (and thought that they liked me). I am prepared for the inevitable - that they will have to accept OW into their family "for the sake of their son". Once again, detachment is the key to managing this situation. If I let my emotions run my reactions, then I would lose what scraps of friendship I do have with my beloved inlaws. Keeping up with the ILs is not for the sake of WH - it is because I genuinely liked them and don't want to lose them.

So, overall, there is much to be gained by standing back and not getting personal about the actions of WH and OW. WSs and OW behave like this all over the world and this situation is not special. (they, in their fog however, believe it is) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ August 04, 2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: ClaireL ]

You are getting smart fast, Claire.

My e-mail to WH over the bond:

"Bond money can only be released to the person who is applying for it.IE, I can't request it on your behalf. This is a matter which you willneed to sort out with the landlord as I have no rights/authority over refunding your bond.

More info:
http://www.tenancy.govt.nz/tenancy/index.html

Claire"

WH's reply:

"Then why not do what is the normal practise? Have the incoming tenant pay their bond to the out going tenant."

BECAUSE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
(a) "normal practice" is not correct practice.
(b) You, dear WH, are still on the tenancy agreement as a tenant until YOU apply in writing to terminate the tenancy and get your refund back. I want you off the tenancy agreement!

Need I go any further with this matter?!!! I think not! I have advised him. I bet he didn't bother to read the Tenancy Services information site.

Options:
1. Ignore
2. Reply: "I would like you to terminate your tenancy at this address, so that a new tenancy agreement can be drawn up between myself and the landlord. Until you give written notice to the landlord, you are still considered a tenant here. Until you give written notice, you cannot have your bond money refunded. Once again, the issue of having your bond money refunded is between you and the landlord."

[ August 05, 2003, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: ClaireL ]

ClairL,

You call that a battle?

Get a grip, girl, that's nuthin. You could take care of this in less time than it takes to post about it. Just go talk the landlord and make it happen. Tell him what you want. He'll figure out what to do - esp. if you are paying the rent. If LL wants to keep the bond money, good for him. If he wants to give it to your H, that's ok too. Not your problem.

-AD

You're right.

ClaireL, or perhaps the LL will just use the bond money to secure your tenancy. That would suit me just fine if I were you!
After all, isn't it considered as much yours as his since you're married? It would be here in CA. U.S.A.
LouLou

Anyone been to the 12 week mark in Plan B and recovered?

Nope...I would say it was more like 6 months of something close to a Plan B for us and the closer the divorce loomed. We were actually seperated for a year.

ClaireL's new name = Enigma.

When I registered, I was totally out of creativity and imagination (it being soon after DDay.) Now it feels like time for a new name. I will still answer to ClaireL!!