Length of time for Plan A.....let's have a discussion!

Marriage Builders

"Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other. So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B."It's an oldtimer here, a fully recovered, "got a marriage that is better than ever", old timer. I've been lurking about in the last few months and not posting much. I guess on these boards there will always be a never ending amount of pain and suffering, as this world will never be free from the devistation affairs bring. As a recovered person it does hurt to see so many hurting and suffering. I feel concerned enough to start a discussion about the length of time in Plan A. The above quote is from this website and Dr. Harley's article on "What is Plan A and Plan B?".I've noticed on a number of posts that there is a general idea floating around that Plan B should be put off as long as possible, that it's a last ditch effort at saving the marriage, that it's one step closer to "giving up". I know that the issue of how long to continue in Plan A is a very individual thing, our tolerance levels are all so different. However, I also feel we must not lose sight of the undesirable effects of a prolonged Plan A and the basic concepts of behavior modification. Dr. Harley puts it well. We run a very real risk of setting ourselves up for prolonged hurt and agony when we "reward" our WS's selfish behavior in a long Plan A. If I remember correctly,(someone please correct me if I am wrong. It's been over a year since I read SAA)Plan A was not intended to go on for a prolong period of time. I cannot recall it being written that Plan A is recommended for at least 6 months,but closer to 6 weeks would be the limit to what the average person would be able to emotionally tolerate without Plan A having some ill effects,decreasing self esteem and self worth,emotional exhaustion/deterioration from continued pain and emotional abuse, and as the good DR. puts it himself.....no real motivator for the fence sitting WS to choose in either direction.From my own experience, I found that my H was much more inclined to get with it and make up his mind when I was clear that I loved him, that I knew I made mistakes and was able to show him how I was changing and that I was serious about meeting his needs and taking them to heart and that there was absolutely no way that I would put our marriage on hold indefinitely while he made his choice. Well he gave up OW quickly(she lived 400 miles away and had a small child, he's got 3 kids of his own), but was still very unsure of whether or not he wanted to remain married. He desired to separate to "discover" what he wanted. He imposed a kind of Plan B on himself. I tearfully helped him move out and Plan A'd ala Lostva. The time apart did wonderful things for the clearing of H's mind. It did him a tremendous good to see what life would be like if he chose to leave us for good.I was nice and sweet and understanding but clear that I would not wait very long for him to decide before I had to start living my life for me and the kids. He actually was probably here at home more days than he was at his new place. The kids......they never wanted to go with him,to visit, to sleep over,nothing. I never made them go.To do so would have been protecting/saving him from the natural consequences of his behavior. He really needed to see and feel what those consequences would/could be in order to make up his mind. He couldn't "make" them go to visit him either,so he found himself here at home on weekends, as he loves them dearly. This gave me more opportunity to Plan A and show him what he was missing. I guess what I want to say is that I believe Plan A and Plan B are meant to go together. It makes me very sad to see so many suffering for such long periods of time...6 months to over 2 years in some situations. I feel WS must have some "motivation" to want to return to their spouses and families and see that Plan A alone does not consistently provide that.Why would anyone be in a hurry to give up the best of both worlds,conflicted or not? Being nice and sweet and meeting EN's and working hard to improve yourself only goes just so far, and takes a huge emotional toll on a BS.Having to deal with the natural and expected consequences, the reality, of losing a spouse and children and so, so much more, I believe is the most powerful motivator for a WS.I know it's hard and it's scary and it's overwhelming to move to a plan that separates us from someone we so deeply love and that may ultimately leave us all alone,but don't we run that risk anyway? I guess I feel deeply that if Plan A doesn't change things in a period of time(short for me)that it's better to do something altogether different..."more of the same is likely to beget more of the same" kind of idea at play in my mind. It's been said that by changing your own behavior that you can influence a change in behavior in your partner. I'd like to suggest that if Plan A hasn't been providing you with the change that you so need and deeply desire that there is another equally if not more effective plan laid out for us here. It's not a plan of last resort, it's not a plan of giving up. It's a very powerful plan that serves to diminish your pain and suffering, to strongly motivate your WS into getting a reality check, and ultimately make you a stronger more self assured person who is able to either deal with the very real tough issues of recovering a marriage or to deal with the end of the marriage, if that is what WS ends up choosing.We have a wonderful,caring, very wise group here.I continue to benefit from the expression of ideas and feelings on this and the recovery board, even though H and I are doing more wonderfuly than I ever believed possible. My desire is to stir some deep introspection and discussion about the effects of Plan A and Plan B. Ok all you "recovereds", come out of hiding now!God's blessings to all of us!

Plan B is terribly harmful to children, and perhaps even impossible. One of the few things that the lawyers agreed on was the necessity of us talking about the children. Unfortunately, the OW doesn't want him to have any more contact with me than absolutely essential, so the result is pretty much a Plan B. The result has been devastating to the children. When he comes to pick some of them up, the others either don't get to see him or have to go outside in the snow, since he won't set foot in the house. I can rarely talk to him about children's issues, since he is not allowed to stay here more than a few minutes when he picks up the kids, not to mention the fact that conversations in the snow are not too pleasant. I am quite sure that many of his emails are supervised by the OW, so I don't feel comfortable discussing much that way. He is fond of implying or sometimes just plain telling me how stupid I am via email, but he doesn't do that in person. I do my best to keep him up-to-date on the kids' lives by email, but you can not have a decent discussion of anything timely when he sometimes doesn't respond for days. Plan B is terribly unrealistic when there are children involved, and quite possibly a violation of the terms of the separation agreement. It just isn't practical when there is joint custody.

mthrrhbard:Old-timer here...in successful recovery for almost 1-1/2+ years. On your comments, I couldn't agree with you more. [This message has been edited by Survivor [aka_NoTrust] (edited January 06, 2001).]

I also don't think Plan B works when the affair is continuing. In that case, they aren't missing anything - as a matter of fact they are far better off. Legally, they get to see their kids when they want to, but have absolutely no parental responsibility. If the kids are annoying, they can bring them home. They have all the advantages of being a parent, and none of the work or worry. They get to keep far more of their income for themselves than they would if they were at home. And if they really cared about actually being there to raise their kids, they wouldn't have left in the first place. As long as the affair continues, they can have their cake and eat it too whether the BS is in Plan A, Plan B, or no plan at all. As I have said before, there is no downside to leaving your family for an affair partner until when and if the affair partner dumps you. [This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited January 06, 2001).]

I tried to Plan B at about the year mark, but with kids, ran into problems, somewhat like Nellie is describing. I felt it was too much to impose on a friend to have our communication about kids & arranging pickups. And, it seemed once we were talking about the kids...we were talking and not at all in Plan B.So, I ended up in Plan A for 18 months through 6 separations. Too long, too much turmoil. Emptied my love bank and I cannot recommend staying in it for so long. H left me again and I was *done*. My counselor advised me to act "as if" we were divorced, and at that point I had no problem with that. And my H discovered he wanted me and the kids. It felt too late and I served divorce papers, and "moved on".My H did Plan A on me 3-4 months. It was tough on him, but he did it very well. He loved me unconditionally, really a better Plan A than I had done. On me, Plan A worked without him going to B and we reconciled May 00 after 2 years of hell.I doubt we would now have a recovering marriage if I had somehow continued Plan A. I was always there for him, no matter that he left 6 times, whether he was seeing the OW or not. But I can't second guess whether an earlier, successful Plan B or "as if divorced" would have had the same outcome or if this was a matter of the amount of time having passed and his fog/withdrawal ending. I do know when he wanted to come home the seventh time and I said no, he was surprised.But, if we hadn't reconciled, I was ready to go on with my life without him...and for most of us that takes time, spending that time in Plan A or B is time to begin healing and making your own goals for your life, apart from whether or not you get your marriage back.If it all began again at this point (God forbid!), I would not go back into Plan A. But although I feel I did it too long, I don't regret doing Plan A for that amount of time. A bit contradictory I suppose, but I did try the options, and until the last separation, I couldn't keep up Plan B or tough love behaviors.I suspect the ease in doing A or B depends to some extent on personality, lifestyle and beliefs. ------------------ Lor "Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Well, I plan Aed for almost two years, achieved the objectives of making my husband feel safe and comfortable, changed the errant behaviors from the marriage (which was recognized by my husband), and he still never ended his affair. He wouldn't divorce me either so I finally had to take matters into my own hands.In my STRONG opinion, Plan A becomes a mistake when you do it longer than is necessary to show the spouse that you can be different IF you ever get back together again. That is it's only purpose in my view. You CANNOT win the spouse back from an OP, and to try to do so is demeaning, disasterous to your self esteem.To take this even further, I've concluded that there really are only two major paths affairs take. The first path is when the spouse ends things at discovery, or at least seriously tries to end things then, wants the marriage and is remorseful. We all hope for this one.If the first path doesn't happen, the only hope is to wait for the affair's natural death, which may or may not happen before you stop caring. Plan A extends affairs. Plan B probably has no impact on the affair but at least lets the betrayed place their focus elsewhere. That is extremely important.BTW, I don't believe a literal Plan B is necessary. It's the essence of detachment and focusing on your own life that is essential here. That's why it is do-able with children. It's not that hard to cut off non-essential conversation with a cheating spouse and act as-if you're already divorced.Having been one that did Plan A far too long, I feel that I can make the following statement with legitimacy (but may get flamed by others here who I really respect). When Plan A goes on more than a few months, it's being done because the betrayed wants to do it, most likely out of fear of what will happen if the betrayed ends communication. THIS IS A VERY BAD REASON, but I feel I'm being very honest writing it. Many of us betrayeds had our self-esteem shattered by this event. We run on fear and are not sufficiently confident that we can be happy without our spouses, whatever their character really is. As a survivor of this, I'd like to assure everyone here that's afraid to end Plan A that you CAN AND WILL do better in time by focusing on your own life, loving yourself, and requiring respectful, honest, and faithful behavior from those you choose to love.

These posts are just so relevant to my current situation - see post below "have i misunderstood". From my reading you would all seem to agree that i have gone on in Plan A for too long. D day was two years ago - but I seriously began Plan A'g seven months ago. Late July H moved out at my request when, after returning from a holiday together I found photographs etc of OW in his briedcase. I then began plan A'ing seriously and we had lots of good times together. In November i asked for us to talk about where we were going. response was that "too much has been done and said" and that while he loved me he wanted to be on his own - "possibly for some time". So I left. While he said he had not seen OW "for months" I knew he had remained in telephone contact so I sent him the Plan B letter - but did not stick to it - as he kept in constant contact (e-mails and phone calls)and because I thought it would make Christmas/NY easier for me. We spent Christmas apart but spent New year together - as explained in my other post - but clearly he has resumed his relationship with OW again; Right at the moment he has made plans for my birthday later this month but I dont think I can go on like this anymore. I still love him very much and believe that, if he could truly commit to the recovery process we could rebuild a happy and loving relationship. But these posts have made me think long and hard about what I do next. This am I have drafted a post Plan B letter - basically saying that I do not want to hang around on the sidelines any longer and inviting him to tell me honestly about OWs role in our current arrangements and in his future plans. I will sit on it until I read more of the responses to this thread but would appreciate any additional comments and advice you could send my way.Thankyou R

In retrospect, I could just slap my own face for doing the things I did trying to meet my H's needs 110% during plan A.He never got angry or sad or guilty or confused or any of the other things that "normal" (LOL! are any of them really normal?) WS's here seem to feel when their spouses are bending over backwards for them. My H absolutely loved going back & forth between us without any pressures, nagging, or demands. He thought that my behavior meant that I was becoming very open-minded about him loving two women. We were actually having what I thought was a very close, intimate evening, when he suggested that it would be wonderful if he could bring OW home and we could all get to know each other and enjoy a three-some in our home. Plan A ended like an atom bomb, and NOBODY has ever done a faster, more total plan B (and big D!) than I am right now.This isn't Harley's failure, or our counselors', or mine. It's just the way it works for certain individuals, and all marriages cannot be saved, no matter what one spouse wants, likes, hopes for, prays for, works for.I will always wonder, though, if things might be different if I'd just skipped plan A altogether.

Rosebrook, I can tell you that there is no time that's better than any other to start Plan B. If you waited until after Xmas & New Years, & then wait until after your birthday...well, then there's Valentines, St. Patricks Day (so special to some of us [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) and Easter...you get my drift.Last year, the week my H wanted to come home & I said no, he invited me for a weekend away...something I had wanted...I said no--if he didn't want to live with me & have me be his wife, there was little point in being his fun weekend companion, and that was a major switch for me. We went to Disney World as a family 9/99 and he told me he would move out when we returned. We had a *great* time, he still moved out. As I said, we are recovering, but having my lovebank hit empty wasn't easy to overcome and that is one of the safeguards of Plan B, you aren't in contact so your spouse isn't draining your love.Distressed--HI! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

It's good to see you post, I think about you. You sound strong--but then, you have been very strong throughout this time. I agree with you that fear was probably a part of my long Plan A. But at the same time, when I was done with Plan A, I felt I had done everything possible to save my marriage I believe I would have moved on with only the usual regrets (should have been a better wife sooner, broken family, I never wanted to be divorced, etc) much like you are. I still could. I think my marriage will make it, but if it didn't, I know I would be ok and I don't ever again want to be treated as badly as my H treated me, and now that includes my H's future behavior. I have toughened up. But, his actions and words seem to all line up to being a good husband, so I'm not having that tested.

I don't really believe that the BS's behavior has much effect on the progress of the affair. I suppose it may have a limited effect on what happens should the affair end - probably if the BS tried to do in the WS, it might have a negative impact on reconciliation prospects - but while the affair is in progress, you could Plan A or B till the cows come home and it would have no effect. But given the choice between my H spending time with us a family, and treating me like a human being, and his present behavior of treating me like a pariah, and a stupid one at that, and making it clear that he couldn't care less if I fall off a ladder and kill myself, I would take the former anytime. I don't think those who have not been the object of their WS's hatred can fully comprehend what it is like.

I think Nellie brings up some points to be considered about Plan B and kids. I do believe that you can do a strict harley Plan B with kids. However, I feel that your go-between person must be tremendously supportive of what you are trying to accomplish. That said, I still personally do not believe that a strict Plan B is in the best interest of children. I think that kids should always see that their parents can come together and do what is right when it comes to issues related to parenting. I know that doesn't always happen and things get ugly but that is why I could never do a strict Plan B myself. With a hybrid appraoch to Plan B, in which you communicate with WS regarding issues surrounding the kids, you see often that WS uses this as leverage to keep their foot in the door with BS.For hybrid approaches to be successful, I think that the foot needs to get slammed in the door, so to speak.When conversations work their way into being about issues other than the kids and WS isn't talking about ending the affair and working on the marriage, BS just has to be strong and speak the truth in love by saying something like "I'm sorry but conversations regarding issues othr than the our children are too painful for me." I think you then need to use those opportunities to restate that you love WS and desire for the affair to be over so that you can both work on the marriage. In restating your intentions towards restoring the marriage,and being honest about your pain, the cut off of extraneous conversation is not a LB.I guess what worked for me was not my H's self imposed Plan B but as Lor describes the act "as if" approach. H always asked "Why can't we just be friends?" My response to this was "I don't hang on to friends who lie to me,cheat me or betray me. Why would I do anything different with you?" This really burst his bubble, as in his fog laden state he continued to think that he could somehow rip my heart out and I would want to be his life long friend. No way Jose! He then realized that he was not only going to lose me as his wife but as his best friend. He knew that if he chose OW there would be no relationshp whatsoever with me beyond relating about the kids. So I guess I did act "as if". Again, I think he really needed to feel what a divorce would be like, afterall that was his only other option, no way was I willing to "share" him.I so appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions.Survivor.....come back and tell everyone what steps you took that made your recovery successful. I think it helps those here still struggling to have concrete examples of what we did that helped get our recovered marriages back on track. Again, thanks everyone for your responses!

cheerleader wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Plan A ended like an atom bomb, and NOBODY has ever done a faster, more total plan B (and big D!) than I am right now.This isn't Harley's failure, or our counselors', or mine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm sorry things went that way cheerleader, but I think it points out something I've been feeling for a while. When we get tossed into this it is like a form of mental illness. I don't think we are able to really control how we will act. If we love our spouse, we are in shock, and try our best to play the hand we've been dealt.I hear all the time here about a plan A, with some lovebusting, or a "modified" plan b. I really think we stumble through, and the Harley program can give us a context within which we can talk about our situation. It's not so much that we are following plan A or plan B, but we are following something. Harley puts a name on our feelings so we don't feel so lost. Personally, I've not had to deal with continuing contact - even so, I was unable to really work at meeting her ENs,at first, because of the hurt I felt. The emotions of the first few months seemed to have a life of their own. I do fall into the camp that thinks plan A can be way too easy on the WS, and counterproductive. I think there is such a thing as accountability. There was no way I could bring myself to meet her needs till I knew she had felt the depth of what she had done to us. Lovebusting? I don't think of it that way - in any event I couldn't control it. I have always been amazed at the way some people have reacted and been able to do plan A. But now, I suppose if my W had given me a different set of circumstances, maybe I would feel differently. So I don't know..when is it time to drop plan A? Like Cheerleader, I don't think most have any real choice. Dave

there are a lot of good replies here. It is truly a discussion I have been mulling over for awhile. I have been at "this" for about a year. I have plan A'd during that time. But even though I "detached' With a long term plan A there were no consequences for my H and it allowed his new personality and support system to grow and take him further away from his "past" life (me the kids, his family of origin).I have done plan A, all the while he and OW, though not living together have fought and faced many challenges that should have popped the fantasy bubble but did not.And it is most likely because ow's H enables from his end and my H has had carte blanche "for the kids sake" on this end.And he has used the connection with the kids to maintain a connection...though at his distance (gotta be polite, but not too nice to the wife, so as not to anger the affairee)And Nellie, I can assure you that it isn't good for the kids either your H's way or my H's way. Our H's are the same in their general unhappiness with themselves that they have projected on to us.Though my H has maintained much more contact with our children, I can assure you it still creates many problems and insecurites within them that continue to magnify over time.Whether they see the kids as much as my H and continue on with their "new lifestyle" or not see the kids, as your H does and continue the lifestyle...it is still about entitlement...theirs and theirs only.My H was so "out there" in the beginning that there was nothing I could say and didn't. But I still bought into his "I'm unhappy and my life is complicated" when he had to tell me about Ow's pregnancy. And I let him have more leeway.But his life is NOT complicated at all. And he continues to do whatever he wants. It is my kids lives that are complicated.At some point, even if you can't go to a Harley plan B...there has to be boundaries set. There has to be some sort of consequences....The kids are already irreparably hurt and confused by their behavior.My plan A stops now..it most likely went on too long anyway. I made too many excuses..."he's sick" "he's depressed"He said he was not getting any younger. well neither are the kids and I. We deserve a life too. I've managed to make many changes in my life. I have managed to "do it" despite the blatant disrespect that has been thrown in my face. I've managed to shield my children from their father's lies for a year. I think my kids are the ONLY ones who are unaware of what he has done.There's a point of moving forward...even if you don't want to say you are moving on..[This message has been edited by tootrusting (edited January 07, 2001).]

Hello there TT, glad you popped in to see us. I'm sure I'm not the only one who misses you around here, but I can understand.Of all the sadness an A produces, there is no doubt, that it is saddest for the children.If it is almost impossible for us adults to understand and make sense of,how much harder is it for them? Your children and Nellie's have incredible women for their mothers.Despite the sadness that has come into their lives they will learn much about life and courage and character from the strong women they have for their moms.In the end it is their dads that will truly suffer. Their children will no doubt lose their respect for them. They will remain lonely, unhappy , lost men who only look like they have it together on the outside but are destitute on the inside. If only they'd see before it's too late that when they give up their wife for OW they give up more than they ever bargained for.

With my situation, it is my wife whom is having the affair. She and the OP, a woman who is her boss and best friend of nine years, have lost all respect for my feelings and openly flaunt the A in front of me and the OP's spouse. I have been in several sessions with Steve Harley and was actually able to get my wife to spend some time with him as well. He has identified this as a "classic" emotional affair and that my wife is not a homosexual.Even though I have been in Plan A for only about two months, Steve feels that Plan B should definitely begin next month when my wife moves out. She and the OP have gone to extreme lengths to insure the secrecy of the A to all but the betrayed spouses. The wedding rings go on before my wife goes to work in tht morning and come off as soon as she gets home. The OP has already moved out to a small apartment, but no one at their company knows this. My children, two daughters 9 and 14, know Dad and Mom might separate but believe that it is only because we have "differences". My wife has openly told me that they don't need to know anything about the OP.According to Steve, all that will change when we move into Plan B. The kids will be informed about the truth at that time. Since my wife dearly loves them and I believe deeply cares about how they feel about her, I am hoping that this will at least help in snapping her out of the fog. I hate using the children like that, but they must be told the truth. God forbid they find out from someone else down the road. This OP has been known to them for many years and is very close to them. It will be quite the reality shock to all.

delete[This message has been edited by vernon3 (edited May 15, 2001).]

I have one more question to add to this. If h had come out of the fog in and out, how long to you base part a? Mine had left again in late sep, now he is showing signs of coming out of it again. This time i think it is for real. But as a general rule, how long should part a last? Is it suppose to be from when you first find out or from them moving out. If that was the case, of doing from when you first found out, it's about 9 months. Any advise?

Great thread, though I feel I am screwed. Married 21 years my kids, are out of the house. My job is one that forces me to work out of town for long periods of time (though I make trips home monthly and she could live with me but refuses since we are helping take care of her aged parents). I can not change jobs at this time (though a reassign-ment in the future is very possible) due to my qualifications and depressed economy where we live. My wife is on disability and, should we loose this and me having a greatly reduced income, everything would be lost. Based on the kids being gone and the separation from my job I feel we are sort of in a Plan B already. Though living apart I always call her ( before we had our D-Day and Plan A), sometimies 2 or 3 times a day, to tell her I love her and to see how she is feeling, etc. I discovered she was having an EA via internet chat. After I discovered I saw what I had done to lead us to this point and began Plan A big time. She completely denies anything going on, saying I am paranoid. She refuses to dis-connect the internet or share pass words (she has 5 diferent screen names). Even changed the telephone number on the second telephone line so I won't know when or how long she is online. Although she gives the appearrances of us "starting our future together in love" she gets right back on the net and chats with several men. Asking them to come to town for a visit. Also has cyber sex with several, sends pics (all kinds). I see this and it is tearing me apart daily, but I see little hope of a plan B helping as we are practically there already. I really do not know what to do. MrB

Always hopeful I think Harley is right on target! When the A is "hidden" it is just too possible for it to go on indefinitely, something that would cause you to lose your love very,very quickly. I don't believe there is ever anything wrong with exposing the affair. It's a lot less "exciting" when the cat is out of the bag.Vernon 3 I'm one who also has been separated from H and thinks it can be a positive force in the saving of a marriage. When a WS is so set on having their space I think it counterproductive to try to persuade them in the other direction. Little else shows them what life would actually be like with out their mate. I'm glad your H's self imposed Plan B worked for you. Good luck!Hrtbroken Plan A and B have nothing to do with a particular "timeline". Plan A is to let your spouse see that you take responsibility for your part in the demise of the marriage and that you are willing to make and actually making steps to amend those issues. It gives WS a positive view of you. It also is about you working on yourself to make yourself a better spouse whether it be with WS or in another relationship should the marriage end. Plan B is about saving your love for your spouse.Often times when WS continues the A it is difficult not to LB and the pain BS has to endure becomes too much to bear without leaving the marriage at severe risk of being unable to repair at any cost. This is when BS separates from WS until WS is ready to give up contact and seek to repair the marriage. Hope this helps.Mr. Bean Your wife is still having needs met by you, even though you are physically separated from her due to your job.I assume you support her financially,met needs for physical intimacy when you are home, and probably meet many other needs her cyber relationships are unable to provide. I guess it just comes down to how long you can wait for her to decide the other relationships are not appropriate. As it stands now she probably doesn't feel she has anything to lose in continuing her cyber relationships. Just something to think about. Good luck to you.

I feel a need to post my thoughts on this subject. My wife told me "OM" loved her on June 30, 2000. We were butting heads for months at this point. She told me she had feelings for him.?? short version, she started staying overnight at his place, moved out. I was an emotional wreck. I don't beleive she was having an afair. When I look back on it, does't add up. In her weak moments, or the ones she thought I would hurt myself she said she was staying there for financial reasons,(tenant). I LB my share at first, pushed her away. Even diet for medical reasons became LB. Some weight I tried to lose, some fell off "by it self". I lost 51 lbs(224 to 173), from May thru Sept. My wife thought I was prepping for a new love life. When I realized this I relaxed and filled out. I weigh between 184&190. I was polite but passive at first. Mostly trying to keep joint custody of kids. I stirred things up big time when I told her I wasn't going to be the 2nd OM. I felt she should have a man in her life that is everything for her. I would have to step back and let her live her life. She asked what I saw our life like if we divorced. I told her I would make sure I had the kids 1/2 the time and when I didn't have them I would live my life, hobbies, movies, partime job etc. I would limit contact with her. She asked if we could be friends. I told her that sounds like she has already let me go but still needs my company at times. I said I couldn't be Just Friends when I wanted so much more. I think My plan A really started about this time. I was polite before, but from here on I let her know I wanted to work on marriage, and be her husband. Plan A is hard when you are apart. I only lately know it't as much for you as for them. I needed to put myself in her shoes to really plan A. What would she want, how to act? Me changing me made her change too. I also look at recovery as her choice now. I want to be married to her, but only if she wants it too. My choice is dependant on hers. I think the Plan A should run upto the point where it doesn't seem to be working and then a little longer. I always feel I'd rather be in it too long than not long enough. speaking of too long I should hang up now..D.

great discussion!!! up for Class of 2002 Marriage Builders!

Faith, it really startled me to not realize I was reading an old thread and to suddenly see my posts. 2 years into recovery, I don't regret my long Plan A (18 months) one bit, I know Plan B was fairly unworkable for us, acting "as if" divorced was a good alternative, but I hadn't been ready before I was ready. I needed to get to the point of making changes within myself where I could cut down on contact.

i think this thread is great-0i think i am at the end of plan a. husband ended affair awhile ago yet hasnt made the necessary changes to protect me-mostly from his own selfishness. so im thinking of doing a 180 first for awhile, see if i learn anything doing that-if not-its off to plan b.

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Lor,
Sorry to send you through a time warp! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I thought this was a good discussion by some wise MB'ers. Everyone's situation is different, and it's so hard to determine the right plan and the right timing.nikko,
I'm so glad you got some value from it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] - Faith1

Just wanted to say that my own marriage has continued to do well and continued to grow since I penned this post a year and a half ago. Following the principles Dr. Harley outlines to deal with the affair can only help you personally no matter what happens in the marriage relationship. We can never control another human being, therefore we cannot control the outcomes of our relationships. Comin to accept that and concentrating on ourselves is a very difficult thing to do when our worlds feel like they are spinning out of control. It's natural to try to regain some control. We can do great things, difficult things when we control ourselves and focus on making ourselves the very best we can be.Dr. Harley's principles to rebuild and protect a marriage are timeless and work extremely well when both partners are motivated and commited.All the best to everyone!

NO DOUBT.
Thanks Mthrrhbard for your wisdom.Always my thoughts.
InTheClouds[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: INTHECLOUDS320 ]

Some old-timers here have said that if an A does not end upon discovery or very soon thereafter, the odds of Plan A working are almost zero.That in cases where the WS continues the A, the BS pretty much should work on doing a good, solid Plan A, and get to Plan B.Agree? Disagree? Why?

Wow, I thought, look at all these oldtimers coming out for this discussion!!Duhhhhhhhhh - look at the dates, WAT.Anyway, the post is old, but the discussion will always be fresh.For the record, it was mthrrhbrd who finally turned the light on for me regarding Plan B - after this thread was long gone. I'll get to that "click moment" in a moment.My Plan A went for just over a year, for reasons that are not likely common. My point is that there may be situations that demand either longer or shorter Plan A's. It's very artificial, IMHO, to predict that 6 weeks or 6 months is the max time. In my case, it's a foregone conclusion that my XW's affair was directly related to the loss of our child. The details are not important, just accept for a moment that she was so unable to deal with that loss that she chose to run instead - straight to her best friend's H. If you could only meet him, you'd understand that she wasn't running to him as much as she was running from everything else (not uncommon of WSs, though). I understood what was going on. After all, I was suffering from the same loss. As a result, I had more tolerance, perhaps, than I would have otherwise had in a "garden variety" affair. Hence, I went on for over a year during which she didn't spend any more than a few minutes on the fence - and only then during the early stages.That said, I wish I had moved to Plan B sooner. My "click moment" from mthrrhbrd came when she told me in a post about the Plan B symbolism that permitted the BS to make a decision. As it related to me, my WS made the decision to have an affair, to lie to me and our surviving son, and to lie to and deceive her best friend. She made the decision to move out against the wishes of me and our surviving son. She made the decision to turn down all offers of counseling - either jointly or individually. She had made all the decisions affecting the lives of me and my son without regard to our wishes. Plan B, mthrrhbrd said, was my chance to make a decision.My WS made the decision to separate, Plan B was my decision to STAY separated - until she met my conditions. I caused a small furor on the forum by posting that with Plan B, I hadn't felt so liberated since I stopped wearing underwear.So, back to my point. The best length of Plan A cannot be predicted, IMHO. You'll know when you get there and it can vary widely due to the specific circumstances. But once you're there, you may regret not making the move sooner. As for me, it didn't work to salvage my marriage, but it may yet work to salvage a friendship with my former wife - still in denial that she had an affair.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> <hr></blockquote>Spacecase
"Some old-timers here have said that if an A does not end upon discovery or very soon thereafter, the odds of Plan A working are almost zero"Here is where there is a HUGE misunderstanding about Plan A. Plan A is NOT designed as a way to win back your WS! It's purpose is to make you the more attractive option should your WS come to the conclusion that the A may really not be what it's cracked up to be. It's to make you a better you.When WS is conflicted upon discovery then they tend to see your Plan A results as they develop. When they are thickly fog laden and in fantsy land they tend not to see any difference or are hostile and suspicious. Fantasy land of an affair doesn't last forever. Reality sets in sooner or later. The question is how long can you just go about improving yourself while staying in a very unhealthy marital situation?That's an individual thing. My opinion has always been that 6 months is way too long. That's just me. No way could I have my spouse throwing an active A in my face for that long, I would have lose all my self respect and my spouse would have lost all respect for me. Your spouse has to respect you before they can love you. I made mistakes in my marriage, but I was not a horrible spouse,it didn't take long to get across the point that I was changing for the better. By allowing my WS to experience the natural consequences of his behavior he realized that the better me would not be an option for him if he didn't quit with the fence sitting. People don't change without the motivation to change. It's my opinion that WS doesn't readily or quickly see see how much they have to lose when they have both BS and OP meeting their needs. Afterall, an A is a very selfish act and feels good, so to have the benefit of OP and BS clamoring to meet ones ENs for long periods of time can feel quite wonderful and empowering. No consequence = no motivation to change.Now, take away the BS who has changed and become a more attractive option while in Plan A, an individual who has remained commited and learned how and become more wiling to meet the needs of the WS and you have a consequence to remaining in the affair. Take away that better BS ( or one who wasn't too bad to begin with), and WS usually gets angry that they can't have the best of both worlds, but......reality starts to set in, they have something to lose and therefore have to make a choice. Couple that with an OP who at some time starts to become more demanding and wants WS for their own and losing the BS for good can become an even bigger consequence.I just had to be proactive. I could not take the pain. Guess I'm a wimp of sorts. I had to ensure that my WS experienced the consequences of not making up his mind. I was losing it emotionally,more and more the longer I did Plan A with H still fence sitting, and I had 3 kids to take care of and a life and living to make if he wasn't going to stick around. I had to get emotionally healthy again and I couldn't do that on a rollercoaster that was constantly making me sick. I also knew in my heart that my marriage would not work for the long term if I didn't KNOW my H had CHOSEN to stay in the marriage vs. staying in the marriage just because. By separating he had to make an active choice and experienced for himself what life without his family would be like. His decision to recommit was an active one, not a passive submission to something comfortable. His making an active choice to stay in the marriage was HUGELY important to me in order for me to feel safe again in a marraige in which I had been betrayed. It was my way of knowing he realized what he had done, what it would cost everyone involved and would not risk it again with another affair somewhere down the road. It helped me be able to heal and trust again much easier ( and at that it took well over 2 years for me to heal).It's going on close to 3 years now since d-day and the marriage continues to grow. We have dry spots and we slide back into complacency now and again but we both recognize the danger of that when it happens and one or the other, or both, makes active efforts to address the problem when it occurs. There is no more taking each other for granted anymore and no more sweeping things under the rug. We both recognize that marriage is a garden that needs constant nurturing and weeding and yields beautiful results with effort. We're enjoying our garden, remember vividly what it was like when we neglected it, and appreciate now, instead of dread the work it takes to keep it thriving.

Hi Dave!You're one of the best Plan A success stories I know! Just goes to show this stuff works no matter what a WS choses. She's lost more than she'll ever realize. However, I'd bet that realization is starting to set in some, the more time goes by.God bless you and your son and all the best to you always!

I agree.The MB Concepts tell you all about it. They are true and should be followed to the T, if you want to come through this on a positive, whether our M's work out or not.There is no guarantee that every M will work even if the concepts are followed, but atleast as individuals, we can get through it in one piece and will be able to move on feeling that we will be o.k. no matter what. If you feel good, are confident, and have faith in yourself, anything is possible. That is what Plan A is all about, I think. Why should we lose our identity because we are M'd? Why else did you M who you M'd or thought you M'd? Because of who they are or thought they were, right? How could you honestly feel that your M will workout if the WS is still seeing the OW/OM? I mean, yes, you can stick to the hope that the A will die a slow death and the WS will eventually come out of the fog but, for how long and at what cost?
(Varies according to each individual)I just think it is disrespectful, dishonorable, humiliating, belittleling, and more. In the meantime, it depleats the Love Bank and it sure doesn't protect you, your family, or your M. I know an A changes things anyway, but if the A keeps going on while you Plan A, the change takes on a whole different attitude. The recovery, if there is one, will most definitely be compounded, and seem almost unreachable. In my case, it caused alot of resentment, compounding mistrust, and contempt--X'S 10. EVERYTHING is a trigger to me. All my furniture is a trigger for me. Am I suppose to get rid of my whole household cause of this? H%#l no! I worked hard for it. No outsider will take that from me. Anyways.....Pre-MB--I left my H and came back so many times all the while continuing to express my love and forgiveness each time and eventually he went right back to his old routine; his A's, gambling, not paying the bills, pulling disappearing acts on weekends, and anything else you could think of. I still did my "wifely" duties [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] hoping he would stop.After I stubbled onto MB(God send) and started the "official" Plan A, I realized that as long as he continues to have his cake and eat it too, nothing would change. I thought to myself, if I were just like him...would I want things to change? DUUH! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] dumby! You went down his route. What happened? It was not the answer. You DO NOT want to be like him and you sure as h%ll don't want to live the rest of your life with a man you don't know let alone be in a M like this.I see now what I refused to see then. I can stop complaining about it and do something to change it or sit here continuing to be dishonored, disrespected, humiliated, ignored, blamed, etc...I made my choice. I faced my fears. (Being a single mom [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , starting over [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] , being alone <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> , mula$$$?, and where would I go?) I hadn't worked in years:embarrassed:! I MADE A PLAN. I gave my Plan A 6 months. I told him all about MB and showed him all the books. I requested we go into MC, individually and jointly, gave him print outs, tried group discussions with other M'd couples(family & friends) who were going through the same thing, and more. I paid off all my bills and saved money. I set my goals. When I left, (Plan B), I told him that I loved him; that I wanted to be M'd to him; that I believed he could be the H I needed if he wanted it bad enough; that I could be the wife he needed 100%+ if he just chose to be M'd to me 100% *& no less. I also let him know that I forgave him, but I would no longer accept his hurting me. I have to get away to save the love I have left. I have to get away to save the dignity and sanity I have left. Me: "I accept responsibility for my part in the fall of our M, but I would no longer accept responsibility for your part. I think that you need to take this time to face your demons and figure out what you want. I can't control nor will I try to change you anymore. I can't and I accept that. Sorry if I hurt you because of it. I realize that I have to take care of me now. I can control me and change myself. Our D needs role models. She needs her parents...both her parents. I don't want her to think that this is how M is or how all men are. I want to be a mother she is proud of and want to be M'd to a man I am proud of. I want to love you all the time, not some of the time. Please help me do this." Leaving him was the hardest thing. Being here without him is so hard. He has been my life for the past 11 years. Now I am scared that he will not choose us, but I know that I will be o.k. no matter what his choice may be. I have to be. (I start college in the fall [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) Recently I sent him a 8 page letter basically telling him that I love him, miss him, what to remain M'd to him, but only if he wanted and could be a H to me and F to our D 100%, no less. I told him in the letter that I will not wait for him forever. I gave him 3 months to decide and if he could not decide in 3 months with a yes or no answer, then no answer at all would be my answer. I will file for a D. He has decided to take the whole 3 months to decide [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] It scares me, but it is the sacrifice I have to take if I want things to change for me. He sent, not just me, but MY MOTHER too, flowers on Mother's day. He has never done that the whole 10 years we've been M'd. He tells me he loves me everytime we talk now and calls me instead of me doing all the calling. He paid a bill and called me just to tell me.(Funny) Don't worry..., won't fall back into the same trap(YO-YO/ROLLERCOASTER)For myself, Plan A is for me and Plan B is for us. I think it may take drastic measures for them to see the light....in my case anyway. So..., that is why I agree. Just my thoughts.
InTheClouds

In the CloudsYou've got it! No matter what he choses you will be able to hold your head high and feel good about yourself. You will have regained your self esteem through making a life for yourself and your child, and that's a very honorable thing! He, on the other hand, will have to live with the reality that he's lacking in character and integrity. It takes a lot of personal work to regain that. And you my dear, will have the hardest work already behind you and be well on your way to a new life! God bless you! Keep up the good work and good luck at college!

Originally posted by worthatry:
.....Plan B, mthrrhbrd said, was my chance to make a decision.My WS made the decision to separate, Plan B was my decision to STAY separated - until she met my conditions. I caused a small furor on the forum by posting that with Plan B, I hadn't felt so liberated since I stopped wearing underwear.So, back to my point. The best length of Plan A cannot be predicted, IMHO. You'll know when you get there and it can vary widely due to the specific circumstances. But once you're there, you may regret not making the move sooner. As for me, it didn't work to salvage my marriage, but it may yet work to salvage a friendship with my former wife - still in denial that she had an affair.I do agree with Wat about the plan B relieving some of the stress and liberting the spirit. (I am not agreeing about the u-wear part - LOL!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] - so this is where that post is hiding!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )I do remember this post. vaguely recall it but as I read it, the points did stick. For me, plan A had to be shorter than most because:1. I was dealing with a dysfunctional WS and a psyco OW. They were draining me fast. 2. I could not emotionally afford to stay in plan A. The WS is a major conflict avoider and as long as I stayed in plan A he felt he was having the best of both worlds (even alluded to that fact some dumb comment about 2 women wanting him -plan B fixed that thought). 3. So after much deliberation and thought I went to plan B. I remember the horror some had as they pondered about plan B. I felt the horror also. But once executed, I must say, I felt relieved. The tension spots in my neck and shoulders, softened. My nightmares disappeared. My anxiety attacks reduced. Life seemed bearable and other topics, activities and people began to take their rightful place. Plan B is not a bad thing if the BS has made their individual changes and the WS has not or not enough. Here is that Dr. Harley quote from the basic concepts section on plan b:"Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. 
…In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety. In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts." I need to add that I did not do a good plan A or plan B but I did both. I let the WS back home too soon and then had to stand my ground firmer each time. That was hard. In the long run for me, it was worth the effort. Only be insisting that respect for our family be a requirment was I able to keep it together for our family. I learned to put the onis on the WS to prove himself worthy of taking H back as his rightful title. This time he had to earn it. He is still working on it and this time with a much better attitude. That has been my measuring rod. In the end, plan B gave me back my life. I am not sorry I went to plan B. I wished I had the strength to do it sooner but do not regret doing it at all. Mtthrbrd, I want to thank you for your thoughtful post. Back in Jan 2001, I was too distraught to appreciate the words of wisdom from you and your collegues. I want to let you know that this little poster did listen, just a bit thick skulled and so it took a while for it all to sink in but I am glad I had the sense to stay here. Patience and persistence paid off. Even if the Ws did not come back or if he did, what I learned here was valuable for me. All this time has not been wasted. Mahalo,[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]

im gonna jump in here and say my situation is a little different. so im not always sure what to apply and when.right after finding out i left-to go to girlfriends house-she had my kids.(we were supposed to go to husbands x-mas party-guess who he took-i didnt know. she wasnt home and i couldnt get her on her phone. i drove around and eventually came home. found husband sleeping.(that should have been clue #1) i nver asked him to leave. we went through a few days of he//. i then made the first move to hold his hand. we never stopped sf. i then took on the responsibility of repair. he never did no-contact, they decided to be just friends. he never did std tests. she had condoms. we started to rebuild and i realized that he was extremely comfortable in having his needs met, but putting forth no effort. not even counseling-there was another excuse for that too. he is loving in some ways, but doesnt want to do the work at rebuilding. that is all on me. i have done a very good plan a. he has not even tried. again i will say he is not a monster, the affair is over, as far as i know, my problem is i have the same lousy marriage back that got me here to begin with.so i have decided to make some changes. i will still meet his needs and stay the better me. i will no longer initiate conversations or ask him how i am doing with whatever i am doing at the time. i will begin my life for me-do things i have wanted to do. i was afraid of this because husband felt before the affair that i had a life without him. i did, because i realized he didnt want to participate. that is his issue to deal with. i will no longer be afraid of him walking away. he can decide to do what is necessary to help repair this marriage or not-his choices. i will no longer make being stuck were we are a comfort zone for him. so i am trying a 180 in certain ways.i guess my question is also, how would plan b pertain to me-is it an option. separate and draw my boundries(counseling, and active participation in marriage, etc..). i just dont want to be stuck here anymore.

Wow! Lot of "old timers" here, eh? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Everyone seems to forget. Plan A/B are used to (try and) save marriages. But they don't always work for that purpose.However, ya' gotta remember they are also to help you get through it all in a way which will lessen the emotional trauma of a (possible) divorce.Many people (newbies mostly) at MB seem to think Plan B is simple. In the case of Plan B, you MUST have a friend/family member to use as a go-between who understands what is going on. You better be sure this is something you want to pile on this person and explain to them it's more than, "hey, can my ws pick up my kids here tomorrow?"since I penned this post a year and a half ago.
?!?!? So that's what happened! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
I didn't even notice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
Spacecase Quote:
"Some old-timers here have said that if an A does not end upon discovery or very soon thereafter, the odds of Plan A working are almost zero"<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr>
Here is where there is a HUGE misunderstanding about Plan A. Plan A is NOT designed as a way to win back your WS! It's purpose is to make you the more attractive option should your WS come to the conclusion that the A may really not be what it's cracked up to be. It's to make you a better you.<hr></blockquote>I did not mean to imply that the decision to commit to the M and work on it was the RESULT of Plan A; rather that some WSs will realize their mistake pretty much upon discovery and other won't (before Plan A is even in place). In the case of those who don't, it has been said here by several old-timers, that the odds of their realizing their mistake and commiting to the M during Plan A (DURING Plan A, not as a result of Plan A) are next to zero; that in those cases, Plan B is almost always a necessary step in the process.And my question was whether this is pretty much the case, if you agree or not, and why? <blockquote>quote:<hr>
That's an individual thing. My opinion has always been that 6 months is way too long. That's just me. No way could I have my spouse throwing an active A in my face for that long, I would have lose all my self respect and my spouse would have lost all respect for me. Your spouse has to respect you before they can love you. I made mistakes in my marriage, but I was not a horrible spouse,it didn't take long to get across the point that I was changing for the better. <hr></blockquote>I tend to agree with you, but of course, each case is unique, and each individual has a different threshold at which it becomes unbearable or the LB$ is depleted. <blockquote>quote:<hr>
By allowing my WS to experience the natural consequences of his behavior he realized that the better me would not be an option for him if he didn't quit with the fence sitting. People don't change without the motivation to change. It's my opinion that WS doesn't readily or quickly see see how much they have to lose when they have both BS and OP meeting their needs. Afterall, an A is a very selfish act and feels good, so to have the benefit of OP and BS clamoring to meet ones ENs for long periods of time can feel quite wonderful and empowering. No consequence = no motivation to change.<hr></blockquote>I think the key phrase here is "People don't change without the motivation to change." which really "validates" the dual-role played by the Harley plans; making the BS a better person, and at the same time, demonstrating to the WS what it will be like to lose them.
 <blockquote>quote:<hr>Now, take away the BS who has changed and become a more attractive option while in Plan A, an individual who has remained commited and learned how and become more wiling to meet the needs of the WS and you have a consequence to remaining in the affair. Take away that better BS ( or one who wasn't too bad to begin with), and WS usually gets angry that they can't have the best of both worlds, but......reality starts to set in, they have something to lose and therefore have to make a choice. Couple that with an OP who at some time starts to become more demanding and wants WS for their own and losing the BS for good can become an even bigger consequence.<hr></blockquote>Perfect description.
Thank you for your insight, mthrrhbard[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

I think the BS's Plan A behavior also sometimes acts to counteract the WS's revision of history. If the WS thinks "My spouse ALWAYS or NEVER does XYZ" but sees the spouse not following the old patterns, it can be a wedge in the WS's thinking.My H said he never thought I loved him that much. My long (too long?) Plan A showed him I do love him. So, when I went for the D, he did have the realization he was losing someone.But, that isn't something a BS can control, the realization doesn't always come.

bump for mthrrhbard

Thanks for all the good advice. I am new to posting on MB, but I have visited MB since D-day 1999. I just posted my story for the first time on Divorcing/Divorced, and I would appreciate any input you all might have.

I am at this point, the point of Plan B. I am scared, terrified actually, that I will loose H forever, but then I don't have him anyway.I've plan A since 26 Jan 02, the lat few weeks have made a change. H even said we were working on our marriage, but yesterday he says he's still ****ed up that Ow is a nice person and that he can't decide. I've had lots of positive feedback from him, but I just don't have the commitment (from him to our M) that I need.I've told him how much I love him, I've told him I will live by his decision. He has seen the changes and noticed them.But he says he's not thought about our M a lot at all. I think he's just stalling.I am finding harder and harder to not press him for a decision. I am tiring, I am stressed and sad and feel I can't do this anymore.So how do I work out a plan B that I am confortable with? Can you plan B with contact only re financial or house issues? Can you plan B without a go between? Can I plan B without the big separation deal or do you really have to do it big time, like the financial, absolutely no contact, etc?I am more fortunate than some in that I do not have kids (except for the dog [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ), so imagine it will be much easier for me in that really I don't have to have much contact with him, but its also easier for him to say goodbye too.Again, I am very frightened. Your thoughts would be appreciated. I will post a plan B letter on GQII soon.

THANKS MTHRRHBARD!I am proud of me [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] INTHECLOUDS320[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: INTHECLOUDS320 ]

Anyone care to comment about this? <blockquote>quote:<hr>Spacecase Quote:
"Some old-timers here have said that if an A does not end upon discovery or very soon thereafter, the odds of Plan A working are almost zero"<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr>mthrrhbard Quote:
Here is where there is a HUGE misunderstanding about Plan A. Plan A is NOT designed as a way to win back your WS! It's purpose is to make you the more attractive option should your WS come to the conclusion that the A may really not be what it's cracked up to be. It's to make you a better you.<hr></blockquote>I did not mean to imply that the decision to commit to the M and work on it was the RESULT of Plan A; rather that some WSs will realize their mistake pretty much upon discovery and other won't (before Plan A is even in place). In the case of those who don't, it has been said here by several old-timers, that the odds of their realizing their mistake and commiting to the M during Plan A (DURING Plan A, not as a result of Plan A) are next to zero; that in those cases, Plan B is almost always a necessary step in the process.And my question was whether this is pretty much the case, if you agree or not, and why?

Wow lot's more showed up! That's great!Hi Orchid!
I'm glad I helped in some small way. It's so hard to sort through everything that's happening when it's happening. You've done such a great job and you're such a blessing to this site.Oh, and the horror, I experienced it too, big time! The thought of being a single mom with three kids and dealing with my multiply handicapped son all on my own was horrifying to say the least. But I had to show him I could do it. No way was I willing to share so I figured the sooner I pulled it together the better. God only knew how long it would take H to see the light or if he even would and God wasn't letting me in on the secret. He was in fact trying to refine me and make me stronger and teach me some hard lessons that I am the better for now. I see you know all about those lessons now. They are priceless and will remain with us forever no matter what happens in our marriages in the long run. It's satisfying to know I am a better person because of all of this even though it hurt more than almost anything else I've ever gone through. I know you share that with me. Glad to see you post! God bless you and H!NikkoI can understand not wanting to be stuck. IMO a marriage that suffers an affair dies, a new marriage has to be born and replace the old, sick one in order to be fulfiling. At least that's how I felt, so I can understnad your feelings.I think Plan B can apply in your situation. Afterall, after you do a good Plan A and H doesn't make any moves to improve the situation what are your options? You either grin and bear it or you see to it that there is a consequence to H chosing to do nothing. Now what you chose that consequence to be is entirely up to you but lots and lots of WS don't think that BS is serious until it becomes a reality that BS has had enough and they just might lose what they've taken for granted. Good luck to you!Hi Chris,Another Harley success story! Saw your post about your D. Kids are sooo smart. It still hurts when they have to learn lessons such as the one she's had to learn about her mother. Hopefully it will make d a great wife and mother some day. She's sure got the best of dads!Oh and yes, Plan B is far from simple!Ok Spacecase, sorry it took me so long to get back here. I do agree with that statement that if WS doesn't "get it" soon after discovery that Plan B is likely to be necessary, especially if the affair is being flaunted right under your nose.I agree because, not many can (or should, it's not healthy, IMHO) endure the tremendous pain of a WS continued A and live day to day with that person.I just can't think of anything much more painful and gut wrenching than that.The other reason I agree is because I think there are mainly three kinds of WS ( of course there are exceptions). One is the WS that is a decent human being, they've become depressed, are having a midlife crisis and have had their EN's neglected for some time and they've had an affair to try to feel better. They've anguished over what they've done, they've been conflicted and upon seeing the emotional hell that their behavior has brought to the beloved BS upon d-day, is even more conflicted and distressed. I think this kind of WS may not need Plan B or if they do( or their BS does) they respond readily to PlanB or other remedies such as 180 or acting "as if" divorce is eminent. When a WS's motivation for an A is simply to "feel better" I think it's easier for them to "feel better" about a BS who quickly admits their imperfection, remains comitted to the marriage (despite the Ws's huge mistake) and diligently goes about making lasting Plan A changes.Then I think there are WSs who are generally selfish, self-centered individuals who give little thought to the consequences of an A and want to just have a good time. They think they are entitled and deserve it. Their ENs may have been neglected but they themselves are probably guilty of playing a big part in that themselves. It's hard to keep giving to someone who doesn't give back much. I myself wonder if these kinds of situations are worth saving. I will admit though that in my years here and in life I have seen these kinds of selfish individuals change dramaticaly when they are up against losing their families for good. Again, there has to be a consequence to the affair behavior and the BS in this kind of situation has to be very strong and have solid boundaries in place before a marriage with this type of WS can truly move into recovery. There's lots and lots of repair work to be done in these situations individually and as a couple.Lastly, I think there are WS who are sociopathic, narcisistic individuals who go from relationship to relationship leaving a trail of destruction wherever they go. Plan A certainly won't have an effect on these types of WS and Plan B surely won't either.So that is why I personaly believe in a shorter version of Plan A. If you have the conflicted spouse in my first example, if Plan A doesn't work in a reasonable period (individual thing there)Plan B is likely to produce the desired results of yanking WS out of the fog. If you have #2 then the faster you get to plan B the better as they've got to experience the natural consequences of continuing in an affair. And if you have example #3 then the faster you get to Plan B the faster you can have a new life and a healed self. All of this with the usual disclaimer......JMHO! Good luck to you!Hi Lor!Happy Anniversary! 19 years is nothing to sneeze at these days ! A great accomplishment for you and Guard. May God continue to bless you both.I do agree that Plan A does throw a wrench in that altered revisionist history thinking of WS. I can't think of many instances where Plan A should be left out, except maybe in cases of abuse.LlynmacdWill check out your post in D/DSeahorseWow you sound sooo much better than when I followed your first post on JFO! Good job at hanging in there. You know sometimes when we hang onto a WS too tightly they slip through our finger like a handful of sand we try to grab. If we just open up our palm the sand sits there quite nicely. It's no consolation to have part of a spouse. Marriage is exclusive. You can't make H get to the point of realizing that. However if he has to experience the natural consequences of his continued behavior maybe that at least has a chance at influencing him.Thanks everyone for the added feedback to this "old" thread.God bless us and keep us all![ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]

^ for Spacecase. I didn't want you to think I hadn't answered you!

Thank you, M! <blockquote>quote:<hr> Ok Spacecase, sorry it took me so long to get back here. I do agree with that statement that if WS doesn't "get it" soon after discovery that Plan B is likely to be necessary, especially if the affair is being flaunted right under your nose.I agree because, not many can (or should, it's not healthy, IMHO) endure the tremendous pain of a WS continued A and live day to day with that person.I just can't think of anything much more painful and gut wrenching than that.The other reason I agree is because I think there are mainly three kinds of WS ( of course there are exceptions). One is the WS that is a decent human being, they've become depressed, are having a midlife crisis and have had their EN's neglected for some time and they've had an affair to try to feel better. They've anguished over what they've done, they've been conflicted and upon seeing the emotional hell that their behavior has brought to the beloved BS upon d-day, is even more conflicted and distressed. I think this kind of WS may not need Plan B or if they do( or their BS does) they respond readily to PlanB or other remedies such as 180 or acting "as if" divorce is eminent. When a WS's motivation for an A is simply to "feel better" I think it's easier for them to "feel better" about a BS who quickly admits their imperfection, remains comitted to the marriage (despite the Ws's huge mistake) and diligently goes about making lasting Plan A changes.Then I think there are WSs who are generally selfish, self-centered individuals who give little thought to the consequences of an A and want to just have a good time. They think they are entitled and deserve it. Their ENs may have been neglected but they themselves are probably guilty of playing a big part in that themselves. It's hard to keep giving to someone who doesn't give back much. I myself wonder if these kinds of situations are worth saving. I will admit though that in my years here and in life I have seen these kinds of selfish individuals change dramaticaly when they are up against losing their families for good. Again, there has to be a consequence to the affair behavior and the BS in this kind of situation has to be very strong and have solid boundaries in place before a marriage with this type of WS can truly move into recovery. There's lots and lots of repair work to be done in these situations individually and as a couple.Lastly, I think there are WS who are sociopathic, narcisistic individuals who go from relationship to relationship leaving a trail of destruction wherever they go. Plan A certainly won't have an effect on these types of WS and Plan B surely won't either.So that is why I personaly believe in a shorter version of Plan A. If you have the conflicted spouse in my first example, if Plan A doesn't work in a reasonable period (individual thing there)Plan B is likely to produce the desired results of yanking WS out of the fog. If you have #2 then the faster you get to plan B the better as they've got to experience the natural consequences of continuing in an affair. And if you have example #3 then the faster you get to Plan B the faster you can have a new life and a healed self. All of this with the usual disclaimer......JMHO! Good luck to you!<hr></blockquote>I think you've made a very, very accurate assessment of the types of WSs, (sure, there will be other varieties, and special circumstances), and more importantly, your assessment of the probability of requiring Plan B for each type.My WW is a category 2, and I fully expect that unless Steve H can work some miracle very soon, Plan B will be the route I will have to take.Thank you for taking the time to answer all of us; I feel this thread will be very helpful to many visitors for a long time to come!

Spacecase said:Anyone care to comment about this?
In the case of those who don't, it has been said here by several old-timers, that the odds of their realizing their mistake and commiting to the M during Plan A (DURING Plan A, not as a result of Plan A) are next to zero; that in those cases, Plan B is almost always a necessary step in the process.
v. interesting - looks like this is my case too. WW shows no remorse at all - but writes to OM 'I'm not regretting having met H [ie, me], but I'm not regretting having met you'. Fogese at its best of course.Anyway, is the fact that plan B is ALWAYS necessary if WW is not remoursful, something that the 'old timers' around here can confirm?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Nick123:
Spacecase said:[qb]Anyone care to comment about this?
In the case of those who don't, it has been said here by several old-timers, that the odds of their realizing their mistake and commiting to the M during Plan A (DURING Plan A, not as a result of Plan A) are next to zero; that in those cases, Plan B is almost always a necessary step in the process.
v. interesting - looks like this is my case too. WW shows no remorse at all - but writes to OM 'I'm not regretting having met H [ie, me], but I'm not regretting having met you'. Fogese at its best of course.Anyway, is the fact that plan B is ALWAYS necessary if WW is not remoursful, something that the 'old timers' around here can confirm?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>Nick; read M's response to me right above your post. And always remember never to use always and never!

back to the top! ^

i think its time for this thread to come back up.....