She declared war - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I said things were heating up.The following is the text of a letter my attorney got from my wife's attorney. I got a copy today (08/01/01)from my attorney:Dear Mr. <lawyer>:As you know, the <Smiths> signed a Separation Agreement November 4, 2000. Under that Agreement in Paragraph 10B, your client agreed to remove my client's name from the mortgage within 120 days of the signing of the Agreement. Although the parties have ascertained that he can do so without increasing the interest rate or term of the mortgage, he has failed to remove her name. Please advise your client that his failure to remove Ms. <Smith's> name from the mortgage within 120 days is a breach and needs to be accomplished immediately.Further, Ms. <Smith> has had many problems with Mr. <Smith>. He is talking directly to <son> about their situation in violation of the agreement including statements such as "at least I'm not having a f****** affair." He is also asking <son> to relay messages to Ms. <Smith>. Further, he has said that he and Ms. <Smith> should only communicate by e-mail or letters (not verbally) unless it is extremely urgent - hardly appropriate in light of their joint physical and legal custody.The house is in deplorable shape including, at time, dog feces, vomitus and urine on the floor which makes an inappropriate environment for the parties' [sic] child. Further Mr. <Smith> is not helping <son> to eat, exercise and maintain proper hygiene appropriately, aas [sic] evidenced by his increase in body fa [sic], dirty body and clothes. He listens in on <son's> phone conversations with Ms. <Smith>. He has also threatened my client. Joint physical custody can only succeed where the parties work cooperatively and both are concentrating on the best interests of the child.Finally Mr. <Smith> has not paid his child support payments for March through July. He needs to bring them current now. In addition, instead of advising Ms. <Smith> on a monthly basis about expenses she must share under the Agreement, he lets them accumulate then drops a request for a large payment due almost immediately. For example, he did not give Ms. <Smith> a copy of <son's> scheduled school payments and told Ms. <Smith> on July 20th that a $5000 payment was due the end of July. I suggest we do a short Amendment requiring Mr. <Smith> to provide expense to be shared with Ms. <Smith> on a monthly basis. In turn, Ms. <Smith> has agreed to propose a schedule for her parenting time with their child.Ms. <Smith> wants an amicable divorce which she believes is in the best interest of <son>. After you have had an opportunity to speak with Mr. <Smith> about all of the above, please contact me. ****************I am dumbfounded. I hope I don't have to defend myself on this forum. Suffice to say, there are lies of commission, half truths, and lies of omission.But, I am also salivating at the thought of responsing to this. I'm going to work on it tonight and I'll post my reply. Maybe I'll have two replies - one directly to my wife and one for the lawyers.In a way, this plays right into my hands. I cannot believe her lawyer is so stupid.My son called me a while ago. He's with my wife. I violated Plan B by asking to speak with her.Me: I got my copy of the letter from your attorney today.Her: (long pause) OK.Me: I just want to say that I am very, very disappointed that it has come to this.Her: What do you mean?Me: I can't believe you would say those things. I'm just very, very disappointed.Her: Well, I'm sorry it had to come to this. It didn't have to.Me: Of course it didn't have to come to this. That's what I've been trying to communicate for the past year. I don't want it to come to this. I've been trying to avoid this. This doesn't have to happen.Her: (Silence)Me: I don't want to argue about this. When are you bringing <son> home?Her: After dinner.Me: Goodby.Better than a soap opera, huh?WAT

Dave,I'm dumbfounded too. I just got home and signed on. My phone line is free though.

Dave, Before you go off and send your wife a horrific response, REMEMBER: lawyers make money off of controversy. If she called hers while she was angry or annoyed, he probably saw the $$'s that more controversy would provide him.I believe that it is rarely the client's idea to write a letter containing details such as those that letter contains - and I FIRMLY believe that divorce lawyers are some of the most incredibly talented fiction writers in the world today.Move over Stephen King... ------------------ terri CourageWhatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong.There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right.To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage.Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yep, I have to ditto Terri.I filed for divorce. I told my lawyer EVERYTHING, gave him reams of paperwork and information.What he did with it was pretty ugly. I ended up editing ALOT of my divorce complaint and motions for support.Even then, I still didn't like the tone, but it was at least factual.Keep in mind that her lawyer is talking, not her.------------------ Pain is a given, misery is optional.

Oh, WAT,Gosh, everything's a mess - you're trying to Plan B and those d*#% lawyers - in violation of the agreement.Never been there like that. Sounds like she is "beginning to set" you up. Makes you sound like you're unfit, has she been taking pictures. Now you'll be on the defensive. Guess letter back.Chin up. aftershock

My jaw was on the floor by second paragraph. That's insane! Obviously she told her lawyer all of this and he used it to their advantage. I agree that she is setting you up at the prompting of her lawyer. Get rid of the dogs if they are such an issue. They are hers anyway. Make dam sure that Taz has the clothes organized and that your son looks squeaky clean everytime she is near. I know it sounds ridiculous but she's playing hardball now. You said your financial records are impeccable so that will speak for itself. Start recording all communication with her. Have documentation of A in case you need it. And make sure everytime you communicate with her that you do not LB in anyway. NO more ammunition for her(the judge will see through her fabrications).Now, when I thought my H was going to give me the heave-ho, I went to see a big time divorce lawyer to see what my H would do to me. He is business and money savvy and I am not. I went in there saying that I did not want a divorce. I wanted him to tell me what I needed to know about what the laws were in my county and what I could expect to happen. He advised me to file first. Save all documentation etc... Questioned me extensively regarding H's finances. I think he saw major dollar signs for himself. If I hadn't have been so dead set against divorce he would have had me file first. He said its better for your case. I wonder if that is what her lawyer has told her.I'm left scratching my head, Dave. I'm sorry. I know how much you love your family. Hopefully, she will read that letter herself and get a sick feeling from what she has done.

Okay Dave ... Terri is very correct. This is the Attorney speaking. Altho, it's very apparent your wife went there to vent because she doesn't like Plan B. What to do now .. well I would not write a letter/email to your wife. I really wouldn't. I would not contact your wife about any of this. I would stick to Plan B. I would see my attorney and have him draft a letter that addresses all of the above but in a Plan A tone. Plan A, Plan A, Plan A! When I say all of the above, I mean all of the above that is legally jermaine, I would not bring up the he said she said stuff that involves your son. It's not important. It'll cause more grief on both sides, not to mention what it will do to your son.If you contact your wife you will LB at this point, Dave. I just feel there would be no way around it. You said yourself you're feeling bitter, I believe your letter/email will have that tone.Your wife is being reactionary, don't you be reationary in your response via your attorney. She is telling the attorney things that have nothing to do with legalities, she used her attorney as a sounding board, he took the info and ran with it. There is far too much contact between you and your W, and I fear she will see your bitterness, it's major LBs, Dave. I know you don't want that. Please think ahead to the future.We're here and will help you. I'm waiting to see what everyone else has to say, but I feel very strong about my recommendation, Hon.I'll be on and watching ... so c'mon Dave, remember what your goal is.Love, Jo[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited August 01, 2001).]

Support boat coming in with a big cushion to lessen the impact. Oh Dave, I am so sorry your W has resorted to these tactics. Is there a chance that the lawyer got the names mixed up and put your name where her's should be? Could be she got a lawyer that specializes in revisionist history letters?Listen, this is a warning wake up call. Now you work on your defenses man..... I agree with all here, esp. cleo and Jo. Put on your best show yet. Be prepared for more mudslinging and put on your great smile. Don't have any earth shattering advice to offer, the others are doing quite well. You have Rick's number, use it. Keep us posted as you can, if you need more support, just holler. <<<<hugs from the west coast>>>>>>L.

One more thought Dave that may help you get thru this.Consider this letter from W's attorney a test, are you going to pass with flying colors MB style by applying what you've learned and believe in, OR ... are you going to add to the LB carnage that may push your wife farther away from you???I know you know the answer to this.We're here, talk to us.Jo[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited August 01, 2001).]

Dave,there may need to be less contact between you & W. You are in Plan B here & it seems as if there is almost daily contact, comply with her requests, & be ready for the papers that I think she has waiting to serve on youor maybe she is trying to force you to make the move, so she can tell son that you filed not herHang in there Dave, I do have one question, do you still want your marriage or are you ready to move on

Hang in there, Dave. I agree with all who have advised you to *NOT* respond to this nonsense.I FIRMLY believe it's always darkest just before the dawn, and this looks pretty dark! DO nOT respond in like kind....let your attorney do the talking, and stick like *glue* to Plan B.Her inability to break your resolve with your Plan B is PROOF POSITIVE that it's getting to her, so she's resorted to desperate tactics.We are all pulling for you....but you've GOT to remain strong.....just a little while longer. I feel a break-through is close.As Lostpup (on Prayer Requests' forum) is fond of saying, "Don't give up 5 minutes before the miracle."Prayers for you tonight.Lupo

<<<<<WAT>>>>My jaw dropped as well. What these lawyers won't do for a buck, huh? I agree with most others. Don't write her back and stay your ground. That is absurd.Good luck, HbH

{{{{WAT}}}}What does your lawyer say about this?I would advise composing a response saying exactly what you want to say and then tearing it up. I think you need to get it off your chest but I don't think she needs to hear it.Remember, the object of Plan B is not to "get to her". The object is to maintain your Self and avoid further withdrawals from the Love Bank. I would suggest making an effort to see that she doesn't have to try to contact you.Suggest a schedule for time with your son and let her edit it. She doesn't seem willing to do that. Get it done and give her the option for change.Make darn sure you invite a lot of people over to your house so they can refute her allegations that there is urine and feces, etc., in your home.Put your wife out of your mind and talk to your son. He is no doubt hurting and he could probably stand to hear a few extra "I love you"s and have a few extra pairs of underwear in the "bachelor" house.It's tough, but you have to let go enough that you don't damage your Self or your relationship with your son's mother beyond repair.Hang in there.All the best, HBC

hmmm pretty much ditto, I'd ignore the tone of the letter, cooperate on the financial stuff, apologize to wife for making her feel in necessary to go to such lengths, but that you understand is how lawyers play hardball, and that he is just looking out for her, and emphasize that you have no intention of being a pain in the a** over it. But then that's just me. BTW it did not really sound like war dave, just a warning shot, I get the impression you are really kinda looking for a fight, understandable, but not really helpful to your goal of reconcilliation.

Hey Dave ... one more thing.I know how much this hurts you. I'm so sorry, you don't deserve this. You and son are in my prayers tonight,Please be well and know we're all thinking of you during this really tough time.Lv, Jo

You guys are my lifeline!!OK, it's way past my bed time because I've been working on a response. No, I'm not going to send it, but I will share with my ambulance chaser, and you guys. Keep in mind this is a very rough first try and i did it mostly to satisfy my need to do something and because I like to write.Dear Ms. <wife's stupid lawyer>:I am in receipt of your letter to Mr. <my attorney> of July 24, 2001 concerning the Separation Agreement between myself and my lovely wife.In general, your letter is filled with lies of commission, half truths, and lies of omission. I conclude you are unaware of the truth, otherwise, you would not so jeopardize your integrity.I will respond, point by point, after I inform you of some information that you may not be aware of.First, I love my wife and son more than you can imagine. I would do nothing to harm either one of them. I do not want a divorce and it was against the wishes of my son and I that my wife abandoned us on August 20, 2000. This abandonment is starkly evident by her premeditated decision to vacate our residence while leaving our son in my care. Her reason for vacating was portrayed by her to be because she "loved me, but was no longer ‘in love' with me." Her stated reason for this was because she had fallen in love with OM, her (former) best friend's husband and a pallbearer for our deceased son who died in August 1999. She was and still is, committing adultery.As depicted in my attached journal, my wife began her deceptive affair during or before June 2000 with OM. I need not repeat the details here, but she engaged in deceptive behavior and told countless lies characteristic of an affairee, including lies to her own son. Adultery can be easily confirmed by information gathered by myself and Mrs. OM. This behavior on her part is hardly "in the best interests of <son>," as quoted in your letter.In your letter you state, regarding the removal of your client's name from the mortgage on the abandoned domicile, that, "although the parties have ascertained that he can do so without increasing the interest rate or term of the mortgage, he has failed to remove her name." What you don't state is that we received the information, requested by me from our mortgage company, for conducting this transaction on August 9, 2000, before she vacated the residence and long before the Separation Agreement was signed on November 4, 2000. In August, my wife was aware of the transaction fee of approximately $1089.00, yet she chose not to submit her half of the transaction in order for this to take place and to date, has not done so. I will comply with the Agreement upon receipt of my wife's share of the cost, as stipulated in Paragraph 10B of the Agreement. Be aware that at this time, the cost and terms may have changed.In your letter you state, "Further, Ms. <wife> has had many problems with Mr. WAT. He is talking directly to <son> about their situation in violation of the agreement including statements such as ‘at least I'm not having a f****** affair.'" You are correct that Ms. <wife> has had many problems with me, but not of the sort you described. First, my wife has had to endure many requests by me for us to participate in marriage and family counseling. She did participate once with me, on July 19, 2000 with Mr. <counselor>. Subsequently, she did not attend a private session scheduled with Mr. <counselor> on July 28, 2000. After that, she refused to participate in any further counseling with Mr. <counselor> or anyone else. In the meantime, I continued to participate in counseling with Mr. <counselor> once, and with Mr. Steve Harley many times which is continuing. After many requests, my wife did agree to talk with Mr. Harley in November, 2000 and did so once. Since then she has turned down my repeated attempts for further sessions with Mr. Harley or any other counselor. Further, she refused to participate in family counseling as recommended by <son's> psychiatrist, Dr. <psychiatrist>. During <son's> counseling with Dr. <another shrink> during September through November, 2000, my wife attended fewer than half of the eight sessions. I attended them all. Her sparse participation in these activities is hardly appropriate for the best interests of <son> and despite her affair illustrates my willingness to constructively and cooperatively work with her to resolve our family problems.Second, my wife has had to endure a number of written requests, copies attached, in which I professed my love for her and my willingness to repair our marriage, in part, for the best interests of <son>. As advised by my counselor, Mr. Harley, as stated in my letter of July 7, 2001, I eventually had to resort to my request to cease all personal interaction with my wife in order to preserve what love I had left for her until the eventual end of her affair. This well known strategy is clearly described in the popular publication, "Surviving An Affair" by Mr. Harley's father, Dr. William F. Harley Jr. and Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers, and has been used successfully by hundreds of couples experiencing extra marital affairs. Thus, the appropriateness of this practice is well established. To further illustrate my efforts to repair our marriage, I have been an active participant in the internet forum on this topic at MarriageBuildres.com. Since my registration on the forum on September 29, 2000, I have posted 1900 messages and questions related to recovering a marriage damaged by an affair under the registered name, "worthatry." I suggest you review some of my writings.Third, I have spoken directly to <son> about the fact that his mother chose not to live with us any longer. To not do so would be ridiculous and an abdication of parenting responsibilities. I am his father. These conversations have not amounted to discussions about our "marital or financial situation or parenting decisions yet to reached" as prohibited by the Agreement. Everything I have described to him has been preapproved by either Mr. <counselor> or Mr. Harley - experts in their fields of family and marriage counseling. I did not make the statement, "at least I'm not having a f****** affair" to my son. This is a groundless accusation. I need not make such a statement for he is well aware of my love and faithfulness to his mother.Regarding the deplorable shape of my house. This statement is beyond belief. I invite you to visit us. Yes, my wife's dogs have their accidents. She has turned down my repeated requests for her to take them. Isn't it curious that in light of these "deplorable" conditions and her concern for her son that she has not taken action to remove him from this inappropriate environment? In fact, she has forfeited a portion of her 50% custody. The actual time my son has spent with me is approximately 60%, because of my wife's other priorities.How is it that I have not helped <son> to eat, yet he has an increase in body fa[t] [sic]? These are ridiculous accusations. For the past six years I have consistently participated as an assistant baseball coach during <son's> twice a year baseball seasons. Allegations of a "dirty body and clothes" are ludicrous. Since my wife abandoned us, I have had the constant assistance of an au pair to assist me in these areas.The accusation that I have listened in on <son's> phone conversations with my wife is groundless. However, if it were true, I would have justification in order to monitor the extent of lies and deception continuously exhibited by my wife. In contrast, my wife has carried on lurid e-mail conversations with her lover, Mr. OM, in <son's> presence and has had <son> in Mr. OM's presence in public places. Hardly an appropriate environment for the best interests of the child.You stated in your letter that, I have "also threatened my client." Please describe these threats?I couldn't agree more with your statement, "Joint physical custody can only succeed where the parties work cooperatively and both are concentrating on the best interests of the child." It should be clear to you by now that I have worked diligently to preserve the family unit, which is the best way to safeguard the best interests of the child. I note an absence in your letter of any allegations of abuse, alcohol or drug problems, or criminal activity on my part. In contrast, my wife has broken both the law and her vows via adultery.In your letter you state, "Finally Mr. WAT has not paid his child support payments for March through July." This is a half truth. The full truth is that my wife never paid her share of child care expenses, a minimum of $280.00 per month, on the first of each month as required by the Agreement. Because the child support payments are $171.60 per month, less than $280.00 per month, I never owe any net payment to my wife.Your statement that I allow expenses to accumulate, "then drops a request for a large payment due almost immediately," is disingenuous. I note that I prepared and paid our 2000 joint income taxes as well as <son's> taxes and provided my wife with a summary long after April 15, essentially providing an unsolicited loan. However, when I presented all the tax documentation, she did not reimburse me for over two months. My wife is well aware of <son's> school expenses, so accusations of not knowing about large payments are laughable.I note that my wife only proposed a schedule for her parenting time recently, after I sent a stern request for her desires in this area.Be aware that I do not want a divorce, amicable or not. I want to rebuild a happy family. My wife seems hellbent on squandering this opportunity, against the best wishes and interests of <son>. Given her adultery, she should be thankful that I am willing to reconcile with her.

I still can't pick my jaw up off the floor. Please, hang in there, don't do anything rash. My prayers are with you.D.

Dave,I have no experience with legal wrangling, separation agreements, etc. I'm just sorry that it's come to this.I'm not sure how to Plan B with a child under your circumstances, but do think that really minimizing how much contact and how much you think about her is the best thing.If she ever comes to her senses, she'll see how damn fortunate she is to have someone willing to endure all this while keeping the desire to rebuild your marriage.Steve

WAT:STL's Law of Lawyers: All of them are scum except mine.Having gone through an acrimonious divorce, I can emphathize with such correspondence. My exW's lawyer was good at fabricating things. However, I was fortunate: I found one of America's truly ethical lawyers. A person who is committed to attempting to preserve families and ensure that children's best interests are maintained.I'd offer you his name, except I think he only practices in Maryland. His son (also a decent chap ... must be the New Zealand influence of the mother/wife) practices in DC and in Maryland ... may practice in Virginia as well. Let me know if you need their number.Anyway, having endured the type of letter you have received, talk with your attorney. He can help you with some of the language and finer legalistic points. If, by chance, you suspect/have proof of (alcohol or drug usage as I did), talk to your lawyer about DNA testing (residual traces of drugs and alcohol can remain in hair samples for as long as 6 months). I (at my lawyer's urging) countered with this when fabrications about parenting began to run rampant. Her lawyer immediately went into stall mode until more than 6 months had past (she got my exW to go on the wagon ... which was our (lawyer and I) strategy all along).Anyway, the whole point of it: it can get ugly, Dave. Particularly if one side (hers in this case) is willing to stretch the truth ... which, according to my lawyer is not uncommon in affair-based situations. An attempt to muddy the waters, so that she (via the lawyer) will look better in court. Make sure your lawyer picks the judge (mine manuevered well and got a judge not prejudiced against men having domestic custody) and who was a staunch believer in family values.Hopefully, it will not go that far. But be prepared. Talk strategy with your lawyer.Godspeed and prayers with you, STL

Dave,First... Hugs guy...Second... apoligies I couldn't be here earlier.. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Had my own to deal with tonight... You got great advice, and I want to thank everyone for taking care of our own...Dave.. I sought advice.. and really needed more personal communicae.. so I jumped to ICQ with Topie and Miss Priss.. (of course, Harley frowns on this type of contact between BS of the opposite sex). If you need to talk.. can't get ahold of Rick.. I'm on ICQ all day long.. and can be there in chat.. whenever you need be.If you want my ICQ number.. I'll give it you.Hang in there big guy.. your doing a great job.. Remember.. Plan B is for you to PROTECT the love you have remaining for you wife.. Don't be your own punching bag.. you'll beat her out of your heart without even knowing it.As I have learned, breathe, put it to sleep.. and review it tomorrow. Faux email/letter writting is good. Give it up to us, and get it out of your system. Post all the looooonnnnggg winded post you need. Even if no one reads it... you've gotten it out.I think a good thing will come of this. Have faith and believe in yourself.. those were some harsh words that you had to face today. Don't let it get you down.Semper Fi ------------------ Husband2You ***** Don't make me promises Baby you never did know how to keep them well I've had the rest of you Now I want the best of you It's time for show and tell'All or Nothing' © 2001 O-Town

WAT,Those who are telling you that attorneys make money by stirring up controversy are right!!Your letter is a good vent but I’d be very careful about sending it. Maybe clean it up some, remove of the emotional venting. Setting straight facts about things like the financial situation, condition of your home, your son, etc might be good to address. The rest about how you are trying to rebuild your marriage and how she is having an affair could sound very judgmental. I’d ask your attorney about that stuff. Then pass it by your attorney. You certainly do not want to send a correspondence directly to her attorney. That is what you pay your attorney for.If your wife and her attorney keep spewing out this emotional garbage and you always respond calmly but in truth you will come out ahead. Don’t let yourself get sucked into the game. Be above it. Z ------------------ He loves not who does not show love. ----William Shakespeare

This sucks.I would have all correspondence go through your attorney first. In my opinion, now is the time to use your impeccable record-keeping skills. Get all the financial stuff in order, get all the documentation you can about the A. You might even want to go through your old posts and document days that (1) your wife was unreachable by phone, (2) you/your son had no idea where she was, and (3)other things that would protect your interests.It sounds as if you have a journal, but try to document as much stuff as you can. I pray that you won't have to use some of it, and maybe your wife can still change, but if it were me, I would want the truth to be available.I think your wife is really stirred up because you aren't being her puppet anymore. By doing Plan B - which is very different from Plan A - I'm sure this is what has put a bee in her bonnet. She's fighting mad because things don't seem as easy and comfortable to her anymore. If she had a problem with how you look after the dogs, maybe she should have found a place that allowed dogs - duh. I don't know. I have a pet, too, and if I left my H for some awful reason, I think I would find a place that accepted animals -particularly if I thought this was going to be a long-term this (i.e., divorced and on my own.)And her son, I know she wants things to be amicable - but it sounds as if to me, she is making these claims to get "more" custody in the future - so protect yourself and your sons interests. I think she's probably trying to make you out to look like a bad parent, or a bad housekeeper for some future intent. She probably knows you have information concerning the A. She knows you have the upper hand with regard to finances. So, this is all she's got to pick on, apart, whatever.WAT - you just have to maintain your diginity. You know who you are, what you are and what you want. Your wife is all stirred up, but don't let that get to you. Just go about things logically and business-like. Had your wife gone and talked to Steve - she might have been aware of Plan A and Plan B. But, she didn't want to.It's just crazy. Hang in there, the truth shall prevail.

Thanks, folks. I'm really feeling pretty good, actually.STL - I AM in Maryland - please tell me your attorney's name that believes in preserving marriages.H2U - I appreciate the ICQ offer, but I am not set up for that and can't tie up my home phone line for long periods.The more I think about my wife's recent antics, the more I suspect that Plan B is the reason. I think it's an easy conclusion that she was angry when she directed her lawyer to come after me. The only real demand she can make is the mortgage thing, and the only reason she's doing that is because she can. She has no money to get her own home, so getting off my mortgage if just an expensive vent for her. She lives pay check to pay check. This was the only way she could react to my Plan B request that she not enter my house. That was her specific response on an earlier e-mail - "If I can't come in your house, then take me off the mortgage."Anyway, ALL of this could be Plan B induced. This is the most attention she's given me for many months. It's interesting after all the healthy discussion about "controlling" on my other long post just yesterday, that right now, I feel more in control than I have for a long, long, time. WAT[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).][This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).]

Dave ~ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So, how am I doing? Devious? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you are far too emotionally involved and are demonstrating a disturbing tendency to manipulate.It's totally understandable!!BUT Dave, you are in Plan B and everything is still about HER. I am sure she knows you very well. I am sure she knows that these things are happening not accidently. Remember her "controlling" accusation? This kind of stuff on your part simply proves to her that she is right.Dave, I am very uncomfortable with your Plan B. I think it's become more of a game, a power play, btwn you and your wife, rather than a real Plan B meant to preserve your love, and ready you for the very real possibility of divorce.I think that you need to get as much of this stuff nailed down btwn attorneys, and find yourself an intermediary.------------------ Pain is a given, misery is optional.

WAT,I agree with the others, it seems that you are still very emotional about things and you have every right to be. I know you want your marriage restored and closure. Sometimes, I feel like I sholdn't even comment b/c I am so new to this thing and that others will think I have no idea what I'm saying. I will say that I'm praying for you as I write this that things will find a way to work themsleves out and soon. God is the only one who knows what will happen, so try and trust in him. I know it's hard but please try. It's tough for me everyday. Yesterday I felt like giving up and today I do too, but tommarrow I may feel better.GC

re devious. I personally an all for good strategy executed well, especially for good reasons (like restoring a marriage). But one caveat, as a ws I don't mind, and can understand such things applied to me, but the less obvious or in your face (so to speak) the efforts, the better. There is a risk of triggering a confrontational response (which is just the opposite of what you want). For example the well known strategy of bs telling ws how miserable you have made me, how I will never be happy again, how could you do this terrible thing to me and kids etc. etc...... will almost always backfire and send us packing. If your wife percieves your deviousness as a coercive attempt to make her feel guilty, or disrupt her plans, you will be unhappy with her response. So I would tread carefully. It is so understandable that bs feel as you do, and act accordingly, and feel createing guilt and discomfort is a good thing, but I gotta tell you it is not a good thing, especially to a determined ws. (meaning one who is convinced the bs is not who they should be married too). What works so much better (in terms of truly changing a ws heart) is to use every opportunity to display your better and or changed qualities, to not be a source of stress, but a safe and attractive harbor. There is a place for working behind the scences, especially to stress the ws/op relationship so it's true nature can be revealed to the ws (if in fact it is no good), but you are playing with fire. If your wife "sees" through the camoflague she will be very very angry with you, and remember this is not court, she needs no evidence, she only has to have the light bulb click on in her head. What I wonder is does she see you as a safe place, or does she see you as an adversary she is locked in combat with. If the latter maybe you should revisit your plan a and b mindset. Btw I didn't see the letter from the lawyer as so bad (keeping in mind it was from a scummy lawyer), and the conversation with w was contentious and pushy on your part (again keep in mind I am a ws, so maybe I don't know anything..fog and all). I think you missed another chance to work on that safe harbor. The problem is again, the conversation was all about you, with all due respect, I think you need to focus more on your wife's feelings. In any event, good luck Dave.[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 02, 2001).]

Hi Dave,Don't do ANYTHING... let the lawyers do it ALL now!! I hope you can get ahold of STL's lawyer and he (or is it she?) can work a miracle for you......the time has passed for understanding...Just be.Don't do anything.Cyber hugs and prayers being sent your way,Sheryl

OK, OK, OK.I get your points. I think my message was misunderstood, so I've edited out the misunderstood stuff. I do not believe I have ever been a manipulator or controller in my marriage. I honestly believe that I gave my wife ample opportunity in my Plan A to feel safe coming to me. Was I perfect, no. My transition to Plan B was coordinated with Steve. By the book, if you're supposed to do a pristine Plan A up to the moment you go to Plan B, isn't this manipulating? If you're supposed to remove all ENs being provided to your spouse, isn't this manipulating? If the point is to create an opportunity for conflict between OP and your spouse, isn't this manipulating? If the desire is to cause the WS to question the wisdom of the affair, isn't this manipulating?Plan B IS NOT only about yourself. It hopefully has a calculated, intended effect on the WS. It seems that manipulation is not only desired, but is necessary.Someone tell me I'm wrong?snl - I've been focused on my wife's feelings for over a year - correction, for over 20 years. Sure, I haven't been correct all the time about knowing WHAT her feelings are. How am I supposed to know if she won't communicate?To be honest, you make me feel like my wife does - nothing is good enough. You coulda done this, but you didn't, you coulda done that but your were too stupid to know what I was thinking. This feels like a no win game, trying to hit a moving target.[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).][This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).][This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).]

Dave:Mike Bailey (Bailey & Bailey) (though his son Chas might be handling the load these days) ... located in North Beach, MD (Calvert County). I will look up the number after coffee and post it here.Godspeed, STL

Cool dave, I had a feeling I was making you feel that way, and believe it or not *smile* I am squirming over here when I post to you trying to communicate in a way that doesn't make you feel that way. I wonder if that means anything, maybe about you, maybe about me (and your wife, as I stand in for her). Perhaps it is you who "feels" such things, and causes you to react in ways that subtlely push your wife away? Maybe cause anything that um....... feels critical (whether good or bad, right or wrong) causes an inappropriate response psychologically for you. Now if you add up the millions of tiny tiny interactions over your 20+ years, well, who knows what the outcome is. OTOH, you as the recipient, are entitled to those feelings, and I must acknowledge and deal with them (not get defensive/excusing and say I am just trying to help), but since we aren't married we don't really have any pressing reason to do so. But in this strange setting of MB where we often stand (as surrogates) in the place of other's spouses, it serves some purpose to go with this stuff a bit.Assuming neither of us means any illwill, and in fact are seriously trying to be helpful, and civil, one might wonder where the negative feelings come from. The ones you just said, and on my part feeling cautious about how I interract with you. I get the sense from you of a tightly controlled person, who might just blast me at any moment....not in a mean-spirited or hateful, or even angry way, but in some verbal put-down way that won't be crude or rude, but will make the same point anyways. Now this might not even be true about you at all, these are feelings, not cognitive assessments. But there is some factual evidence. You do come on strong, authoritative, in control, power words, tightly knitted arguments, willingness to do battle etc. etc.Now if somehow I share your wife's psychology, this may offer a little insight to some of your stuff. Maybe she too feels like she has to be "careful" with you, and since this is essentially a trust issue, all these years have eroded her trust, and contributed to the marital breakdown. Trying to analyze her and your behaviour will not necessarily reveal the emotional stuff going on, that is why the policy of radical honesty is so important. I wish you and your wife could sit down and apply it (with supervision) it does reveal things totally unexpected. My sense is despite your good intentions, and even though you may be trustworthy, your wife simply does not trust you emotionally, and she does the om, it is why I fell in love with the ow, I trust her with my emotions. I don't think you can be truly "in-love" with someone you feel a need to gaurd against. Now you say she is controlling too, and maybe she is. But if so, one of you is better at it, so gets to wear the title. If it is really her, then I ask you, do you trust her completely with your emotions? And if so, why, since she has not been trustworthy. IMO you would be better served by applying your fine mind to unraveling the psychological truths of your marriage, rather than a campaign of reconcilliation. It may seem odd (and again what do I know), but your efforts to "manage" the reconcilliation may have included a layer of intensity which is what your wife emotionally reacted to and left because of in the first place, thereby reducing the effectiveness of your efforts. Keep in mind that despite the harleys skills, steve is at a disadvantage too in not having much input from your wife. Nor can he follow you around constantly to assess your psychological projections, has he ever commented on your behaviour?I was the first to talk to MB, I called jennifer, and told her my feelings, all of em. I told her I did not want to be programmed back into my marriage. I argued with her seriously about their methods, I discussed my deep feelings of connection to ow, and the point is she listened to me, did not invalidate me, was not judgemental (even when I told her the a was physical, and that my wife just thinks it emotional, well till last night anyways when I told her the truth, and it did not go well) yet still made her points and I did not feel threatened. If your wife is in a constant state of defense, she will not be receptive to anything else, and I wonder if somehow you are inadvertently projecting this is a contest with a winner.anyways just some thoughts. maybe more later, but I want to leave with one additional thought...You said I make you feel like you will never measure up (or some such), yet you observe I am trying to be helpful, and in fact are soliciting my frank input, this is a conflict between your brain and your emotions.....what if your wife is experiencing the same thing? Maybe this has given some insight into how she might be "feeling" and reacting. If so, you have a choice, stop triggering this in her (if you can), or accept you do not fit your wife and let her go.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: LonelyAtNight ]

OK, snl, it IS very frustrating communicating with you.Now, is it me, you, or both of us that causes this frustration in me?Does anyone else get frustrated with this dialog?I feel like I'm playing a guessing game, bring me another rock. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely: If it is really her, then I ask you, do you trust her completely with your emotions? And if so, why, since she has not been trustworthy. IMO you would be better served by applying your fine mind to unraveling the psychological truths of your marriage, rather than a campaign of reconcilliation. It may seem odd (and again what do I know), but your efforts to "manage" the reconcilliation may have included a layer of intensity which is what your wife emotionally reacted to and left because of in the first place, thereby reducing the effectiveness of your efforts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>snl - I'm trying real hard, but you're talking in circles.Of course I trust my wife with my emotions - always have. How could I send a Plan B letter to her if I didn't? Why can I do this if she has not been trustworthy? Because I can. No, she hasn't been trustworthy, but I can still place my trust in her. What's your point? I'm really trying to understand.I would be better served by applying my fine mind to unraveling the psychological truths of your marriage, rather than a campaign of reconcilliation? OK, how do I do this without her cooperation? Seems an attempt at reconciliation has to come first. I have no choice but to mount a campaign of reconciliation, not that this campaign has been all "active." Most of it has been passive from her vantage point - me working on myself to improve in areas I'm aware I need to improve on.I haven't "managed" the reconciliation because no reconciliation has been attempted. I've been trying to clap with one hand - can't be done. Now it is a fair shot that perhaps she hasn't felt safe with me. But isn't it perhaps a similar chance that she hasn't felt safe with herself - can't confront her behavior and look in the mirror?Don't forget - none of my actions or inactions caused her to run to OM. She could have confronted our problems in a civilized manner rather than through selfishness. Reconciliation, and confrontation of whatever things she and I were doing wrong cannot have a meaningful beginning until OM is gone.WAT

This stuff is just um...... not random exactly, but contemporaneous (is that the right word?, or is it extemporaneous I dunno) thoughts, not a tightly reasoned out presentation. Actually it is how I discuss, think, often, and I know (from past experience) it can be frustrating sometimes. I am motivated(?) I guess to consider everything I possibly can in exploring a problem, or idea. So sometimes it may seem confusing, just discard what doesn't fit, or respond to what does, etc. Pkz remember, I had no desire, or motivation to analyze you, I am just trying to be a mirror, perhaps a cracked one. I am not qualified nor have enuf data to analyze you or wife, even if I wanted to. Nor do I want to upset you, or get any pleasure out of distressing you, my only goal is feedback that may be helpful. But the nature of this forum and the value of the feedback depends on me letting some of my emotions show too, so I do that, cautiously, but I discern there may be some benefit in looking into this ws mind. Plz don't let me drive you nuts. I will respond later some more.[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 02, 2001).]

Oh my. I am off the computer for a few hours (due to bad weather and couldn't log on this morning) and this is what is there waiting. How things change overnight!!!Dave, I hope that you've calmed down by now. I think that the advice about the lawyers exaggerating and trying to make as much money off of controversy as they can is right on. You don't have to defend yourself to us. I am certain that your house is not in deporable condition, and that your son is getting plenty to eat. As for the dogs, they are hers and if they are causing such difficulties, maybe it's time to demand that she take them.As for the turn in events---definately seems like it's Plan B related. You are taking control of YOU and W doesn't like it one bit. See, she thought she had you by the well, you know what, and in Plan B, she doesn't. I think she is sending you these emails and letters from her attorney to try to get you to respond. She is hitting you where it hurts and you are responding in anger. All of us here know how much you love your wife and son and that you want to see your marriage restored. I know that you are fighting to the very end for that chance. We are here for you. Please, please don't let her get to you (much easier said than done, and I know that I am not the example that you want to follow on that). I am so sorry that things have come to this....The offer still holds that I'd be happy to give her a call and let her know what she's missing out on..... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Dave:Bailey & Bailey: 410-257-0212. If a woman answers with a nice quaint NZ accent, that is Elizabeth, if it is a younger male voice, that is probably Chas (pronounced Chaz) Bailey, if it is an older male voice, that would be Mike Bailey.Not sure how much practicing Mike is doing these days, as he is winding down his long career. His son is equally good (and has the advantage of picking his dad's brain). Not sure how much they do outside of the Calvert County area, but guess a phone call wouldn't hurt.Good luck and Godspeed, STL

Hi Worth,I hate to say this but I think you better prepair for a very lengthy cort battle for custody of your son. Even though you want the marriage if I was you I would start getting proof in order that you are a good father and have been there providing for your son. I also would try and have proof on hand that you were not hiding money for care of your son who died. It does not hurt to have a good defense for your wifes claims. Also get proof of the reason why the first au pair left due to your wife. Even if you do not have to use the information it is good to get everything in order. Prove that you have tried as hard as you can to acomidate your wife and she dropped the ball. This does not mean that it might come to this but I think it is. Also maybe time for you to give the dogs at least one to her.

Dave,I have a question for you.Are you 100% sure you want your W's attorney and your W to be privi to this site and your posts?? I see in your letter you have disclosed the URL. The several times I have seen WS's and OP's come here it has been nothing but a disaster. It made the situation much more emotionaly charged. It gave the WS and OP amunition and made them feel manipulated. It also took away the feelings of safeness regarding privacy and support that the BS once had.Just a bit concerned for you.BTW: How are you doing ....Jo

big kitty - I am confident in my record keeping and my ability to defend myself as a good father. One of the byproducts of going thru my deceased son's illness is being very well know within the community as a father who gave his all to his family. My wife also had that distinction, but it's now ben tainted. She really screwed up by choosing this particular OM as her lover. It really displayed her recklessness. Part of the price for local fame - everybody knows your laundry - whether clean or dirty. Jo - I appreciate your concern, but I didn't send that letter to anyone. It was mostly therapy for me to get my reactions out. Nonetheless, and maybe I'm naive, but I have nothing to hide on this forum. Sure, I've deleted some posts in the past that revealed some thinking, but I honestly wish my wife would come looking.WAT

Dave,I don't have experience in he lawyer arena so won't say much about that. However, I would like to venture and say that you need to be careful that you are not being setup to take any type of fall. Feels like war. Sounds like war. But you can't have a war unless both sides come out fighting. Is she beating you up? Emotionally yes. Are you fighting her back? ______________________ That's the part you can control. It is hard, I know. While we can not be at your side all the time, we are here. You have your direct supporters as well. IMHO, give her as little to latch on as possible. If as others say, the lawyers and judge will look from this point on, then you have the advantage of a warning (lawyer's letter). She is showing her hand and it is dirty. You keep clean. You know the points she will try to nail you on, so be prepared. Does that mean she is beyond help? No. You just be a good father and friend. Being her husband right now and wearing your heart out on your sleeve will only cause you greater pain and misery. I think it is hard to divorce a good father and friend because divorces are for ending spousal relationships. Sounds silly but if you show yourself as a good father and friend, where is her proof to make you look bad? Composure, compassion and care. Remember those 3 C's. You have that ability Dave so show all 3. You have done it before, you do it here now pour it on her like there is no tomorrow. Hope I am not out of line. Right now I can feel the stress building up in you, one of despair and frustration. It makes us weak and sick to our stomach. Breathe and calm yourself down. Call your support group. Write to us here. You have been here for many of us, now let us help where we can. Remember, tuck that heart of yours back inside where it is safe and protected. Take Care, will check up on you later. L.

Thanks L, it means a lot. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Orchid: You just be a good father and friend....Sounds silly but if you show yourself as a good father and friend, where is her proof to make you look bad?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, there's a building argument to suspend Plan B. Her proof to make me look bad at the moment is my Plan B in which I minimize direct contact. Her attorney jumped right on this as detrimental to the child. I know, yellow journalism, but the courts are shallow.OK, suspend Plan B and offer an olive branch?WAT[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by worthatry: OK, suspend Plan B?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I vote yes, suspend Plan B.

Oooooo Sheryl, you're the conttrarian, aren't you? Please elaborate your rtationale?dave

Dave,If you are truly asking our opinion on whether or not to suspend Plan B, I think you should dedicate a post asking it. That way we can hear from the seasoned MBers such as K, JL, etc.If you do generate a seperate post dedicated to this topic, reference this thread for the background info.Just a thought ....Jo

I agree with Jo, start a thread.As for me, I see the continued implimentation of Plan B as a weapon for her use in court. Right now, it won't hurt you to go back to Plan A, but being careful to protect your heart...That means, work with her in a co-parenting capacity, be a good dad (as you have been), and be the best man you can be (as you also have been)... I worry that she'll use the Plan B efforts against you, and that in the long run, it will only hurt you.

Dave:The courts are not necessarily shallow. Depends on the judge (I mentioned earlier the one my lawyer manuevered to get: a very conservative older female judge who took a dim view of wives abandoning their family and marital obligations). This is where you need to talk to your lawyer vis a vis your legal strategies regarding Marriage Builder's concepts.So keep up the Plan B until your attorney advises with a sound legal reason to discontinue it.[Oops. Didn't mean to hit the Submit Now button before saying: Your letter is a good vent, however, let your lawyer handle correspondence with your wife's attorney. Costs you a bit more, but you can maintain the Plan B in the interim as you will not have violated the no contact part of Plan B. Do, however, show your attorney your letter, let him also know the importance of MB as a means to try to preserve your marriage, as a means to improve yourself, and a better environment for your son. There ... now I can hit the Submit Now button ...]Godspeed, STL[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited August 03, 2001).]

snl,I doubt that this is really about worthatry's wife not feeling safe being emotionally open to her H - I think it is far more likely that she does not feel safe HAVING any emotions other than anger. They have lived through a terrible tragedy - those of us who have been fortunate enough to have never endured the loss of a child can not possibly understand. I know I can not come close to comprehending the depth of my sister's grief for her murdered son. Worthatry's wife began her affair within months of the death of their son. This is not about whether they are a "good fit" - this is about the effects of grief, and I think it is cruel to minimize or ignore the role of the grief in this. No one who has lost a child recently can possibly be in an emotional state to make life altering decisions. I read somewhere that only about 10% of marriages survive the loss of a child - surely that does not mean that the parents were any less of a "good fit" than average. I think this is much more likely about worthatry's wife's attempt, unfortunately in a devastating manner, to cope with the depression precipitated by their son's death, and about an opportunistic OP who thought nothing of preying on someone who was emotionally vulnerable.

Nellie:I agree, WAT's wife has many issues that she is hiding/avoiding in the midst of this "feel-good" affair.Plan A ... and now Plan B ... is attempt to get her to the point where she can get help for these things. At least that is how WAT's approach appears (sorry, Dave, if I am "putting words in your mouth") to me.However, his wife's anger, pain, remorse, guilt, etc. can only be addressed (by WAT and counselors) when her present situation is resolved (the affair). I hope she finds herself and finds the healing she needs. I firmly believe that WAT's course is one of trying to bring her to that point, and in my opinion he has done a whale of an admirable job in very adverse conditions.Godspeed, STL

Hi WAT, I'm a newbie to the forum but not to courts and the legal system. My first advice is to call your attorney and to spill it all to him/her. Second you need to look to the future as it currently stands. Assume that your W is preparing for a war. This is a war you don't want to lose, yet you don't want to fight. Prepare facts, catch up on anything that's delinquent, give your wife a set number of days to pick up her dogs, make sure she has no ammunition that you inadvertently furnish. It's amazing how an attorney can take a wrinkled shirt and turn it into child neglect. I think you know you're a devoted and caring father, so drop the defense on that and just keep being a good father. Allow your attorney to handle your W and sorry but I think it's time for a Plan B-1, allowing contact with any and all matters that pertain to your son. Trust me, they will use that if it continues. My final advice here is to take care of YOU. I know this is all distressing to you, but keep yourself whole and don't let the lies in that letter bring you down to that level. Many prayers are headed your way. Stay strong and be happy ~TD~------------------ I'm falling even more in love with you Letting go of all I've held onto. I'm standing here until you make me move. I'm hanging by a moment here with you.From Hanging by a Moment by Lifehouse

Nellie, STL and others (I can't remember all of you - what a luxury!) are all correct, I think, regarding the affect of our loss on this whole mess. Our marriage was far from perfect before our son got sick, but I know that long term project affected both of us beyond description.I am thinking clearly and I know what I need to do. My heart has callouses that have made it durable. My remaining son and I are strong and we will prevail. In 8 days (8/11) will be the second anniversary of our son's death. Last year, on the first anniversary, I nearly admitted myself to the ER - I was so distrought over that and my wife's affair coming simultaneously. This year will be very, very different.WAT

WAT, I'm glad you are feeling stronger... I know you and your son will be all right. I will be thinking of you (and all of your family ) on the anniversary of your son's death.As you know, I wholeheartedly agree with Nellie. I'm afraid that that is why some of the tried and true techniques here at MB don't work EXACTLY by the book when depression is a or THE major factor.Depressed people really know how to rewrite history whether with an OP or not. And clearly, as witnessed in our culture, depressed individuals resort to many different forms of self medication.I still think the principles here can be used in these situations... to hopefully keep the door open (A) and love alive (B)... but the bottom line is that THEY need to first admit to the problem... and even then, seek and follow treatment. I know you'll do the right thing. And I hope you have a restful beach trip. You need the break to soften those callouses. I mean that for all of us!!!!ANd just a final note regarding the detritus spewing your way from her lawyer... No one can make you feel inferior without your permission .(Eleanor Roosevelt)

Enjoy the beach Dave!

tootrusting - It was an easy first conclusion over a year ago that I assigned the majority of my wife's behavior to unresolved grief. (Disclaimer - I am not innocent of contributing to the affair-friendly environment.) A few tidbits that I've mentioned over the months, but I'll summarize here that supported my initial conclusion:1. OM is NOT her style. She and I used to have a LOT of fun at his expense. He was a good person, just an arrogant a$$ (can you be both?). The affair is not about her running to OM, it's about her running FROM her pain. She's using OM as self medication to distract her from her pain. I can not answer the obvious question of why I couldn't provide this "service", other she didn't feel safe with me. (See disclaimer, above.)2. Just a few months before the affair started, she brought home dog #2 as an intended gift for her Mom. Nope. This was her new baby.3. Around Easter of last year, she "announced" to her close friend (the Mom of the family <son> and I will stay with at the beach and deceased son's Godmother) that "we" were going to adopt a child. I was unaware of this. We had previously discussed it and I was less than enthusiastic - we're too old to adopt an infant and I wanted to concentrate on our remaining family - and not through providing a "replacement" for our deceased son.4. She and I were extremely close to OM's children and vice versa. Our respective children even gave Mother's and Father's Day gifts to the other "parents." I'm not a psychologist, but in hind sight, I think she coveted OM's kids and tried to accomplish this through their father. She wanted so much to help them in their educational endeavors, etc. and, even though OM's wife was her best friend, she considered her to be a lees worthy mother than she was.So, I know I shouldn't be focused on this. tootrusting is correct that only my wife can take the first step towards resolving her problems. Hopefully, I've laid the groundwork for the subsequent steps.Dave (WAT)