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#935059 08/02/01 02:03 AM
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WAT,<P>Those who are telling you that attorneys make money by stirring up controversy are right!!<P>Your letter is a good vent but I’d be very careful about sending it. Maybe clean it up some, remove of the emotional venting. Setting straight facts about things like the financial situation, condition of your home, your son, etc might be good to address. The rest about how you are trying to rebuild your marriage and how she is having an affair could sound very judgmental. I’d ask your attorney about that stuff. Then pass it by your attorney. You certainly do not want to send a correspondence directly to her attorney. That is what you pay your attorney for.<P>If your wife and her attorney keep spewing out this emotional garbage and you always respond calmly but in truth you will come out ahead. Don’t let yourself get sucked into the game. Be above it. <P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

#935060 08/02/01 06:58 AM
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This sucks.<P>I would have all correspondence go through your attorney first. In my opinion, now is the time to use your impeccable record-keeping skills. Get all the financial stuff in order, get all the documentation you can about the A. You might even want to go through your old posts and document days that (1) your wife was unreachable by phone, (2) you/your son had no idea where she was, and (3)other things that would protect your interests.<P>It sounds as if you have a journal, but try to document as much stuff as you can. I pray that you won't have to use some of it, and maybe your wife can still change, but if it were me, I would want the truth to be available.<P>I think your wife is really stirred up because you aren't being her puppet anymore. By doing Plan B - which is very different from Plan A - I'm sure this is what has put a bee in her bonnet. She's fighting mad because things don't seem as easy and comfortable to her anymore. If she had a problem with how you look after the dogs, maybe she should have found a place that allowed dogs - duh. I don't know. I have a pet, too, and if I left my H for some awful reason, I think I would find a place that accepted animals -particularly if I thought this was going to be a long-term this (i.e., divorced and on my own.)<P>And her son, I know she wants things to be amicable - but it sounds as if to me, she is making these claims to get "more" custody in the future - so protect yourself and your sons interests. I think she's probably trying to make you out to look like a bad parent, or a bad housekeeper for some future intent. She probably knows you have information concerning the A. She knows you have the upper hand with regard to finances. So, this is all she's got to pick on, apart, whatever.<P>WAT - you just have to maintain your diginity. You know who you are, what you are and what you want. Your wife is all stirred up, but don't let that get to you. Just go about things logically and business-like. Had your wife gone and talked to Steve - she might have been aware of Plan A and Plan B. But, she didn't want to.<P>It's just crazy. Hang in there, the truth shall prevail.

#935061 08/02/01 07:26 AM
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Thanks, folks. I'm really feeling pretty good, actually.<P>STL - I AM in Maryland - please tell me your attorney's name that believes in preserving marriages.<P>H2U - I appreciate the ICQ offer, but I am not set up for that and can't tie up my home phone line for long periods.<P>The more I think about my wife's recent antics, the more I suspect that Plan B is the reason. I think it's an easy conclusion that she was angry when she directed her lawyer to come after me. The only real demand she can make is the mortgage thing, and the only reason she's doing that is because she can. She has no money to get her own home, so getting off my mortgage if just an expensive vent for her. She lives pay check to pay check. This was the only way she could react to my Plan B request that she not enter my house. That was her specific response on an earlier e-mail - "If I can't come in your house, then take me off the mortgage."<P>Anyway, ALL of this could be Plan B induced. This is the most attention she's given me for many months. It's interesting after all the healthy discussion about "controlling" on my other long post just yesterday, that right now, I feel more in control than I have for a long, long, time.<P><BR>WAT<P>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).]

#935062 08/02/01 08:00 AM
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Dave ~<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, how am I doing? Devious? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you are far too emotionally involved and are demonstrating a disturbing tendency to manipulate.<P>It's totally understandable!!<P>BUT Dave, you are in Plan B and everything is still about HER. <P>I am sure she knows you very well. I am sure she knows that these things are happening not accidently. <P>Remember her "controlling" accusation? This kind of stuff on your part simply proves to her that she is right.<P>Dave, I am very uncomfortable with your Plan B. I think it's become more of a game, a power play, btwn you and your wife, rather than a real Plan B meant to preserve your love, and ready you for the very real possibility of divorce.<P>I think that you need to get as much of this stuff nailed down btwn attorneys, and find yourself an intermediary.<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

#935063 08/02/01 08:09 AM
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WAT,<P>I agree with the others, it seems that you are still very emotional about things and you have every right to be. I know you want your marriage restored and closure. Sometimes, I feel like I sholdn't even comment b/c I am so new to this thing and that others will think I have no idea what I'm saying. I will say that I'm praying for you as I write this that things will find a way to work themsleves out and soon. God is the only one who knows what will happen, so try and trust in him. I know it's hard but please try. It's tough for me everyday. Yesterday I felt like giving up and today I do too, but tommarrow I may feel better.<P>GC

#935064 08/02/01 08:13 AM
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re devious. I personally an all for good strategy executed well, especially for good reasons (like restoring a marriage). But one caveat, as a ws I don't mind, and can understand such things applied to me, but the less obvious or in your face (so to speak) the efforts, the better. There is a risk of triggering a confrontational response (which is just the opposite of what you want). For example the well known strategy of bs telling ws how miserable you have made me, how I will never be happy again, how could you do this terrible thing to me and kids etc. etc...... will almost always backfire and send us packing. If your wife percieves your deviousness as a coercive attempt to make her feel guilty, or disrupt her plans, you will be unhappy with her response. So I would tread carefully. It is so understandable that bs feel as you do, and act accordingly, and feel createing guilt and discomfort is a good thing, but I gotta tell you it is not a good thing, especially to a determined ws. (meaning one who is convinced the bs is not who they should be married too). What works so much better (in terms of truly changing a ws heart) is to use every opportunity to display your better and or changed qualities, to not be a source of stress, but a safe and attractive harbor. There is a place for working behind the scences, especially to stress the ws/op relationship so it's true nature can be revealed to the ws (if in fact it is no good), but you are playing with fire. If your wife "sees" through the camoflague she will be very very angry with you, and remember this is not court, she needs no evidence, she only has to have the light bulb click on in her head. What I wonder is does she see you as a safe place, or does she see you as an adversary she is locked in combat with. If the latter maybe you should revisit your plan a and b mindset. Btw I didn't see the letter from the lawyer as so bad (keeping in mind it was from a scummy lawyer), and the conversation with w was contentious and pushy on your part (again keep in mind I am a ws, so maybe I don't know anything..fog and all). I think you missed another chance to work on that safe harbor. The problem is again, the conversation was all about you, with all due respect, I think you need to focus more on your wife's feelings. In any event, good luck Dave.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 02, 2001).]

#935065 08/02/01 08:29 AM
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Hi Dave,<P>Don't do ANYTHING... let the lawyers do it ALL now!! <P>I hope you can get ahold of STL's lawyer and he (or is it she?) can work a miracle for you...<P>...the time has passed for understanding...<P>Just be.<P>Don't do anything.<P>Cyber hugs and prayers being sent your way,<P>Sheryl

#935066 08/02/01 08:43 AM
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OK, OK, OK.<P>I get your points. I think my message was misunderstood, so I've edited out the misunderstood stuff. I do not believe I have ever been a manipulator or controller in my marriage. I honestly believe that I gave my wife ample opportunity in my Plan A to feel safe coming to me. Was I perfect, no. My transition to Plan B was coordinated with Steve. By the book, if you're supposed to do a pristine Plan A up to the moment you go to Plan B, isn't this manipulating? If you're supposed to remove all ENs being provided to your spouse, isn't this manipulating? If the point is to create an opportunity for conflict between OP and your spouse, isn't this manipulating? If the desire is to cause the WS to question the wisdom of the affair, isn't this manipulating?<P>Plan B IS NOT only about yourself. It hopefully has a calculated, intended effect on the WS. It seems that manipulation is not only desired, but is necessary.<P>Someone tell me I'm wrong?<P>snl - I've been focused on my wife's feelings for over a year - correction, for over 20 years. Sure, I haven't been correct all the time about knowing WHAT her feelings are. How am I supposed to know if she won't communicate?<P>To be honest, you make me feel like my wife does - nothing is good enough. You coulda done this, but you didn't, you coulda done that but your were too stupid to know what I was thinking. This feels like a no win game, trying to hit a moving target.<P>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).]

#935067 08/02/01 08:48 AM
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Dave:<P>Mike Bailey (Bailey & Bailey) (though his son Chas might be handling the load these days) ... located in North Beach, MD (Calvert County). I will look up the number after coffee and post it here.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

#935068 08/02/01 10:26 AM
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Cool dave, I had a feeling I was making you feel that way, and believe it or not *smile* I am squirming over here when I post to you trying to communicate in a way that doesn't make you feel that way. I wonder if that means anything, maybe about you, maybe about me (and your wife, as I stand in for her). Perhaps it is you who "feels" such things, and causes you to react in ways that subtlely push your wife away? Maybe cause anything that um....... feels critical (whether good or bad, right or wrong) causes an inappropriate response psychologically for you. Now if you add up the millions of tiny tiny interactions over your 20+ years, well, who knows what the outcome is. <P>OTOH, you as the recipient, are entitled to those feelings, and I must acknowledge and deal with them (not get defensive/excusing and say I am just trying to help), but since we aren't married we don't really have any pressing reason to do so. But in this strange setting of MB where we often stand (as surrogates) in the place of other's spouses, it serves some purpose to go with this stuff a bit.<P>Assuming neither of us means any illwill, and in fact are seriously trying to be helpful, and civil, one might wonder where the negative feelings come from. The ones you just said, and on my part feeling cautious about how I interract with you. I get the sense from you of a tightly controlled person, who might just blast me at any moment....not in a mean-spirited or hateful, or even angry way, but in some verbal put-down way that won't be crude or rude, but will make the same point anyways. Now this might not even be true about you at all, these are feelings, not cognitive assessments. But there is some factual evidence. You do come on strong, authoritative, in control, power words, tightly knitted arguments, willingness to do battle etc. etc.<P>Now if somehow I share your wife's psychology, this may offer a little insight to some of your stuff. Maybe she too feels like she has to be "careful" with you, and since this is essentially a trust issue, all these years have eroded her trust, and contributed to the marital breakdown. Trying to analyze her and your behaviour will not necessarily reveal the emotional stuff going on, that is why the policy of radical honesty is so important. I wish you and your wife could sit down and apply it (with supervision) it does reveal things totally unexpected. My sense is despite your good intentions, and even though you may be trustworthy, your wife simply does not trust you emotionally, and she does the om, it is why I fell in love with the ow, I trust her with my emotions. I don't think you can be truly "in-love" with someone you feel a need to gaurd against. Now you say she is controlling too, and maybe she is. But if so, one of you is better at it, so gets to wear the title. If it is really her, then I ask you, do you trust her completely with your emotions? And if so, why, since she has not been trustworthy. IMO you would be better served by applying your fine mind to unraveling the psychological truths of your marriage, rather than a campaign of reconcilliation. It may seem odd (and again what do I know), but your efforts to "manage" the reconcilliation may have included a layer of intensity which is what your wife emotionally reacted to and left because of in the first place, thereby reducing the effectiveness of your efforts. Keep in mind that despite the harleys skills, steve is at a disadvantage too in not having much input from your wife. Nor can he follow you around constantly to assess your psychological projections, has he ever commented on your behaviour?<P>I was the first to talk to MB, I called jennifer, and told her my feelings, all of em. I told her I did not want to be programmed back into my marriage. I argued with her seriously about their methods, I discussed my deep feelings of connection to ow, and the point is she listened to me, did not invalidate me, was not judgemental (even when I told her the a was physical, and that my wife just thinks it emotional, well till last night anyways when I told her the truth, and it did not go well) yet still made her points and I did not feel threatened. If your wife is in a constant state of defense, she will not be receptive to anything else, and I wonder if somehow you are inadvertently projecting this is a contest with a winner.<P>anyways just some thoughts. maybe more later, but I want to leave with one additional thought...<P>You said I make you feel like you will never measure up (or some such), yet you observe I am trying to be helpful, and in fact are soliciting my frank input, this is a conflict between your brain and your emotions.....what if your wife is experiencing the same thing? Maybe this has given some insight into how she might be "feeling" and reacting. If so, you have a choice, stop triggering this in her (if you can), or accept you do not fit your wife and let her go.

#935069 08/02/01 10:42 AM
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<p>[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: LonelyAtNight ]</p>

#935070 08/02/01 11:01 AM
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OK, snl, it IS very frustrating communicating with you.<P>Now, is it me, you, or both of us that causes this frustration in me?<P>Does anyone else get frustrated with this dialog?<P>I feel like I'm playing a guessing game, bring me another rock.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>If it is really her, then I ask you, do you trust her completely with your emotions? And if so, why, since she has not been trustworthy. IMO you would be better served by applying your fine mind to unraveling the psychological truths of your marriage, rather than a campaign of reconcilliation. It may seem odd (and again what do I know), but your efforts to "manage" the reconcilliation may have included a layer of intensity which is what your wife emotionally reacted to and left because of in the first place, thereby reducing the effectiveness of your efforts.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>snl - I'm trying real hard, but you're talking in circles.<P>Of course I trust my wife with my emotions - always have. How could I send a Plan B letter to her if I didn't? Why can I do this if she has not been trustworthy? Because I can. No, she hasn't been trustworthy, but I can still place my trust in her. What's your point? I'm really trying to understand.<P>I would be better served by applying my fine mind to unraveling the psychological truths of your marriage, rather than a campaign of reconcilliation? OK, how do I do this without her cooperation? Seems an attempt at reconciliation has to come first. I have no choice but to mount a campaign of reconciliation, not that this campaign has been all "active." Most of it has been passive from her vantage point - me working on myself to improve in areas I'm aware I need to improve on.<P>I haven't "managed" the reconciliation because no reconciliation has been attempted. I've been trying to clap with one hand - can't be done. Now it is a fair shot that perhaps she hasn't felt safe with me. But isn't it perhaps a similar chance that she hasn't felt safe with herself - can't confront her behavior and look in the mirror?<P>Don't forget - none of my actions or inactions caused her to run to OM. She could have confronted our problems in a civilized manner rather than through selfishness. Reconciliation, and confrontation of whatever things she and I were doing wrong cannot have a meaningful beginning until OM is gone.<P>WAT

#935071 08/02/01 11:30 AM
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This stuff is just um...... not random exactly, but contemporaneous (is that the right word?, or is it extemporaneous I dunno) thoughts, not a tightly reasoned out presentation. Actually it is how I discuss, think, often, and I know (from past experience) it can be frustrating sometimes. I am motivated(?) I guess to consider everything I possibly can in exploring a problem, or idea. So sometimes it may seem confusing, just discard what doesn't fit, or respond to what does, etc. Pkz remember, I had no desire, or motivation to analyze you, I am just trying to be a mirror, perhaps a cracked one. I am not qualified nor have enuf data to analyze you or wife, even if I wanted to. Nor do I want to upset you, or get any pleasure out of distressing you, my only goal is feedback that may be helpful. But the nature of this forum and the value of the feedback depends on me letting some of my emotions show too, so I do that, cautiously, but I discern there may be some benefit in looking into this ws mind. Plz don't let me drive you nuts. I will respond later some more.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 02, 2001).]

#935072 08/02/01 11:41 AM
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Oh my. I am off the computer for a few hours (due to bad weather and couldn't log on this morning) and this is what is there waiting. How things change overnight!!!<P>Dave, I hope that you've calmed down by now. I think that the advice about the lawyers exaggerating and trying to make as much money off of controversy as they can is right on. You don't have to defend yourself to us. I am certain that your house is not in deporable condition, and that your son is getting plenty to eat. As for the dogs, they are hers and if they are causing such difficulties, maybe it's time to demand that she take them.<P>As for the turn in events---definately seems like it's Plan B related. You are taking control of YOU and W doesn't like it one bit. See, she thought she had you by the well, you know what, and in Plan B, she doesn't. I think she is sending you these emails and letters from her attorney to try to get you to respond. She is hitting you where it hurts and you are responding in anger. <P>All of us here know how much you love your wife and son and that you want to see your marriage restored. I know that you are fighting to the very end for that chance. We are here for you. Please, please don't let her get to you (much easier said than done, and I know that I am not the example that you want to follow on that). <P>I am so sorry that things have come to this....The offer still holds that I'd be happy to give her a call and let her know what she's missing out on..... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

#935073 08/02/01 11:44 AM
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Dave:<P>Bailey & Bailey: 410-257-0212. If a woman answers with a nice quaint NZ accent, that is Elizabeth, if it is a younger male voice, that is probably Chas (pronounced Chaz) Bailey, if it is an older male voice, that would be Mike Bailey.<P>Not sure how much practicing Mike is doing these days, as he is winding down his long career. His son is equally good (and has the advantage of picking his dad's brain). Not sure how much they do outside of the Calvert County area, but guess a phone call wouldn't hurt.<P>Good luck and Godspeed,<BR>STL

#935074 08/02/01 02:12 PM
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Hi Worth,<P>I hate to say this but I think you better prepair for a very lengthy cort battle for custody of your son. Even though you want the marriage if I was you I would start getting proof in order that you are a good father and have been there providing for your son. I also would try and have proof on hand that you were not hiding money for care of your son who died. <P>It does not hurt to have a good defense for your wifes claims. Also get proof of the reason why the first au pair left due to your wife. Even if you do not have to use the information it is good to get everything in order. Prove that you have tried as hard as you can to acomidate your wife and she dropped the ball. This does not mean that it might come to this but I think it is. <P>Also maybe time for you to give the dogs at least one to her.

#935075 08/02/01 02:16 PM
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Dave,<P>I have a question for you.<P>Are you 100% sure you want your W's attorney and your W to be privi to this site and your posts?? I see in your letter you have disclosed the URL. <P>The several times I have seen WS's and OP's come here it has been nothing but a disaster. It made the situation much more emotionaly charged. It gave the WS and OP amunition and made them feel manipulated. It also took away the feelings of safeness regarding privacy and support that the BS once had.<P>Just a bit concerned for you.<P>BTW: How are you doing ....<P>Jo

#935076 08/02/01 03:26 PM
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big kitty - I am confident in my record keeping and my ability to defend myself as a good father. One of the byproducts of going thru my deceased son's illness is being very well know within the community as a father who gave his all to his family. My wife also had that distinction, but it's now ben tainted. She really screwed up by choosing this particular OM as her lover. It really displayed her recklessness. Part of the price for local fame - everybody knows your laundry - whether clean or dirty. <P>Jo - I appreciate your concern, but I didn't send that letter to anyone. It was mostly therapy for me to get my reactions out. Nonetheless, and maybe I'm naive, but I have nothing to hide on this forum. Sure, I've deleted some posts in the past that revealed some thinking, but I honestly wish my wife would come looking.<P>WAT

#935077 08/02/01 03:51 PM
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Dave,<P>I don't have experience in he lawyer arena so won't say much about that. However, I would like to venture and say that you need to be careful that you are not being setup to take any type of fall. Feels like war. Sounds like war. But you can't have a war unless both sides come out fighting. <P>Is she beating you up? Emotionally yes. Are you fighting her back? ______________________ That's the part you can control. It is hard, I know. While we can not be at your side all the time, we are here. You have your direct supporters as well. <P>IMHO, give her as little to latch on as possible. If as others say, the lawyers and judge will look from this point on, then you have the advantage of a warning (lawyer's letter). She is showing her hand and it is dirty. You keep clean. You know the points she will try to nail you on, so be prepared. Does that mean she is beyond help? No. You just be a good father and friend. Being her husband right now and wearing your heart out on your sleeve will only cause you greater pain and misery. <P>I think it is hard to divorce a good father and friend because divorces are for ending spousal relationships. Sounds silly but if you show yourself as a good father and friend, where is her proof to make you look bad? Composure, compassion and care. Remember those 3 C's. You have that ability Dave so show all 3. You have done it before, you do it here now pour it on her like there is no tomorrow. <P>Hope I am not out of line. Right now I can feel the stress building up in you, one of despair and frustration. It makes us weak and sick to our stomach. Breathe and calm yourself down. Call your support group. Write to us here. You have been here for many of us, now let us help where we can. <P>Remember, tuck that heart of yours back inside where it is safe and protected. <P>Take Care, will check up on you later. <P>L.<BR>

#935078 08/02/01 04:50 PM
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Thanks L, it means a lot.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>You just be a good father and friend....Sounds silly but if you show yourself as a good father and friend, where is her proof to make you look bad?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, there's a building argument to suspend Plan B. Her proof to make me look bad at the moment is my Plan B in which I minimize direct contact. Her attorney jumped right on this as detrimental to the child. I know, yellow journalism, but the courts are shallow.<P>OK, suspend Plan B and offer an olive branch?<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 02, 2001).]

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