For those interested specifically in WS psychology

Marriage Builders

There seems to have been some interest expressed recently in the um....... ethical status of an unrepentant WS. The implication that such individuals have few redeeming values, are completely untrustworthy, have nothing of benefit to offer the MB effort, and have no idea who they are, or what they want, but are in a perpetual fog and just in serious need of being cured.I suppose all that could be true, but I have to make note of a couple things.1. Most (if not all) psychologists recognize anyone can be a ws under the right circumstances. That suggests ws are no different than the bs.2. Affairs themselves although regretable in many ways, are fundamentally the same as any other relationship, 2 human beings have chosen each other. These choosing run the same range as any other choosings, from selfish, self-serving using someone.....to fully committed loving (would marry) relationships. There is the issue of so-called promises and honesty, but even a cursory investigation of human relationships would reveal these are highly complex issues and not the simlistic concepts those who tout them wish they were. I suspect most if not all bs have broken plenty of their "vows"...but somehow the fidelity vow is "special"...ain't so. Emotional abuse, neglect, control, anger (the religion proponents should read what the Bible says about anger, and angry spouses) etc. are huge vow failures, but somehow the guilty are "excused" with a slap on the wrist....maybe we should tatoo the forehead of controllers too?3. Feelings are ...well.... feelings. Neither right or wrong, they just are. So loving another person in itself is not wrong, it just is an emotional reality. Now what you do about it is a whole nother issue, but the feeling cannot, should not be denied....isn't denial considered unhealthy?4. WS are not all lowlifes running around trying to torture their spouses. They are people with issues too, trying to survive, hurting, lonely, scared also. But that does not mean they are all untrustworthy, lie about everything, plot malicious ways to injure their spouses, etc. anymore than bs are schemeing monsters trying to hogtie their ws and make them love em whether it kills em or not.5. WS come in many flavors too, some have an A, reevaluate their life, and realize they made a huge error, and seek reconcilliation with very little fog/withdrawal. Some are serial affair people, with personality disorders that will never stop. Some are conflict avoiders and never really gave their spouse a chance to problem solve. Some have tried all they intend to, are in kind of a vulnerable limbo (emotionally divorce) and accidently start a relationship with someone else....come to realize it is ill-advised, but still have no desire to remain married, or even become more sure they don't want to be married. Some WS are seduced by manipulative predators, and become emotionally damaged and confused about who they are and what they want. Some fall legitimately in love with someone they would marry if they could, but ethics and morality interfere and the future becomes uncertain...they may just leave and be single, they may reevaluate their life and form a "contract" marriage with a spouse who cleans up their act, some will enter a goodfaith effort to reconcille and find their changed spouse is someone they can love. Some probably just kill themselves, in short....there is no one size fits all.In my case I was married 23 years, I did make significant efforts to get my wifes attention, there were serious interpersonal issues, and I in fact do not like who my wife was, nor want in any shape or form the marriage I had. I cannot speak for her, she has her own feelings, but those are mine. I did not act capriciously, I was done with the marriage, it was not if we would be divorced anymore, it was when. Not being very knowledgeable I made a serious judgement error, I allowed myself to fall in love with someone before I actually got divorced. I had no idea how much trouble this would be for everyone concerned. Now I do, I would not do it the same. My behaviour generated consequences, I am now tainted goods, my integrity in temporary if not permanent disarray. My wife and family suffered various emotional traumas which I must now have on my conscience, I had to accept that someone I love cannot be available to me under these circumstances, as well as take responsibility for the emotional trauma the ow and her family are experiencing. I am not a sociopath, this stuff does distress me. In addition I must now make a good faith effort to reconcille with my wife, open up wounds long since scarred over, and I have little desire to reopen. I am doing this, and being as honest as I can which means revealing my feelings. This is complicated stuff, I wish it were as simple as just throwing a switch in my brain and then feeling all the right stuff. I do worry about something being wrong with me, that my wife may be better off if I get run over by a truck. But none of this means I am repentant. None of this means ...Oh, it was wrong, Josephs feelings don't count, he isn't allowed to love another, he is owned by his wife....yada yada yada. My feelings do count, I am sorry they distress my wife, but they do count, all I can do is try to understand myself, be willing to submit to behaviour modification (aka MB), and see what happens. The fact is I left my marriage, I fell in love with someone, the feelings are real, and I don't regret being capable of loving, or being loved for me. Whether it was real or not, or just fog, maybe I was just used by the ow, maybe I just used her, there is no way to know....only time will reveal those answers.Along the way I have figured out a few things. 1. You cannot just walk away from a marriage. That means the consequences for an ethical person are too great to do that if your spouse objects and makes a good faith effort to find out what went wrong.2. That you cannot maintain 2 relationships, the division of attention just means both will fail....and will reveal you for being dysfunctionaly selfish.3. That you must have no contact (in the sense you let the other relationship permanently go), this does not mean necessarily you have to pretend the op does not exist, pretend you hate or don't care about them, you can (and should) have the same feelings for them you would for anyone you care about....you just can't interact with them as a SO while trying to reconcille.4. That your feelings do vary with contact with op in ways you have little control over, no matter how much you think you do.5. That to be fair, you have to lower the emotional barriers you have constructed to your spouse, and let them in, no matter how scarey that is.6. That this is not going to be resolved in a few weeks, or months, it is gonna take awhile, and you must be committed to taking the time.7. That radical honesty is pretty much essential to the process (although recognizing no one is perfectly honest), that you must let your spouse be aware of anything sigificant......this is harder than it sounds. Not to do necessarily, but to realize when you aren't doing it.8. That the ws must be willing to let the bs have total access to their communication assets, and account for all their time and money, the bs needs this to balance the violation of trust, so they can focus on the changes they need to make, instead of going crazy worrying about you. This means plan a/b have time limits, nothing is gonna be resolved until extraordinary precautions are put in place.I could ramble forever, but the point is, we are people too, our feelings count, and our honesty should not be met with abuse....otherwise why should we trust YOU.If anyone has issues with me, or any other WS, this thread is the place for it, I can't speak for others, but I will answer as honestly as I can. I don't expect to be validated or condoned. I just know everything I thought about marriage, bonding, vows, promises, trust, feelings and so forth is not as simple as I thought it was, so I am kinda lost, but I am trying to do the right thing, but I am not going to let anyone "tell" me what that is...it has to be proven, and it has to be proven by sound psychological principles. I don't think that is unreasonable. I can see no reason at all to be married to my wife if I don't love her passionately ("in-love"), I do have obligations, but every single one of them can be met as an X. There is no reason whatsoever to live intimately with someone unless you love em like crazy. Duty, vows, sacrifice, none of that counts for a thing.......is their anyone here who wants a spouse to remain married to you if they do not love you? And is their anyone who would rather their spouse lie to them about that, then tell em the truth?

Hi SnL,In paragraph #2, you mentioned the statement regarding Forehead Tatooing. In my post on the original thread I had said people that were "DIVORCED" who had cheated should have that tatooed on their forehead. It was more of a vent than anything else. What this did imply is that as a single/divorced person, I would very much like to know before hand if I'm about to involve myself with someone that is Divorced because they had been unfaithful in their marriage. Yes, I was married to a serial cheater and I'm sure I have a tude regarding never wanting to be involved with someone who may cheat again. I have issues and I know it. I'm working my way thru them, and some of it I'm doing here.My "Tatoo" post was not intended to offend anyone, especially you. I apologize if I did. Please forgive me.Jo

Wow, sad... this post is loaded with information and i hope more bs and ws read it. What I didn't quite get was: are you in love with your wife Are you planning to remain married?I am currently bs (fiance). However, previously I spent 6 years with an alcoholic/bad temper, the last 3 of those years were celibate (his choice, not mine).In those 3 years, I never cheated...at one point, I was quite pround of this. I got together with my current bf 8 weeks before permanently ending the previous relationship. We've been friends 7 years, together 2 years. In hindsight, I now realize that my ex's personality and life presented me with something I simply could not handle: temper, anger, alcohol, unable to be physically affectionate, disregardful of his health, disliked people, nasty to his mother.Sorry, rambling a bit. I guess I realize that bs and ws are probably very similar...anyone can be either, given the right factors.What will you do now?

No one can be either, in theory perhaps, but not if they are committed to their spouse. If the temptation is put there in front of you , you have to be a strong enough person to walk away and back to what is important, your marriage. That is why we take the vows that we take, if we did not want to be in a committed relationship we would not have married, we would have stayed single, each spouse chose to be married they were not forced and by choosing marriage both chose to be committed for life, that is why the vows were spoken. If one spouse is tempted they should go and speak with the other and work together so that there would be no need to act on the temptation.That is my two cents worth, for what it is.

snl, Well, let me say that I enjoy reading your posts. The points of view are priceless IMO. It gives ALL BS the chance to see the other side. Something our own WS may not communicate well. I agree with much you have to say, up to a point. Every thing doesn't have to be analyzed with the engineer mindset. Like a piece of equipment on the production line. But if you or any WS is gonna take a marriage(BS) apart and see what makes it tick, all I would ask the WS is to do the same with the OP. I would wager that not many people could stand up to that kind of scrutiny. Speaking only for myself, I can understand how ANY person could have an A. My BIG issue, and that of a lot of us, is the fact that if things were so bad at home then why not leave the marriage? Before you went out and screwed around? If things were so unbearable at home get the damn divorce. Then the lies are so hard to take on top of the A. Why not simply be honest. And don't change history. You say that BS make WS out to be some sort of evil person. What is the WS trying to do when they tell these lies AND change something to fit what they want it to be to justify their actions? I've been with my wife for 22 years counting the time we dated, 19 of them married. My wife tells me she never knew what love was??? What the heck is that? Oh there is tons more but you get the point. Like I said I enjoy reading your posts and you make a lot of sense sometimes. It is nice to read that you have real guilt feelings about what you did. Maybe not about the A, but about having it while still with your W. jd

Hey res, not to worry, this wasn't a vent, I hardly ever vent, I was just advocating. Actually I am a proponent of forehead tatooing (so to speak). I have had heated discussions re privacy issues a number of times (with the availability of computers to compile and track us, DNA, testing, polygraph technology etc. etc.). Personally, in theory, I'd like to see privacy completely eliminated, each of us an open book, would eliminate so much of the evil that thrives in the dark. Of course the main problem is that others (govt. insurance companies, employers, etc.) would use this to our disadvantage....but it would be very helpful in personal interactions. IMO a fair amount of our misbehaviour as human beings is a lack of peer pressure, or significant consequences. If we went back to Biblical times affairs could pretty well be eliminated, you just execute the perpetrators. I am pretty sure I could have stopped if the consequence was me and ow being executed. But that is probably not a good idea, however having almost no consequences is not good either. I am actually in favor of alienation of affection laws, I deserve to be sued, and had this been part of the enviroment, may very well have stopped much sooner and resolved marriage first. But there are many other issues too, far too little support for abused spouses for example, far too little psychological training for us all....marriage far to easy to enter....there is much we can do to eliminate the needless suffering that is caused by people seeking a bond elsewhere than their marriage.

It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is..........I hate to burst your bubble but there are actually people out there who know right from wrong and have the self control and maturity to abide by thier standards and overcome thier little "feelings." We all have bad feelings sometimes, the only difference is that some people act on them and some people don't. It's called MATURITY. This is what seperates the men from the boys.And I seriously doubt - or care - if "most" psychologists agree that "anyone can be a ws under the right circumstances." The premise behind this theory is that bad behavior is just something that randomly "happens" to people and has nothing to do with thier character. Nonsense. That might you feel better but it simply is not true and doesn't pass the laugh test.I have had several opportunities to have affairs and have even had "feelings" for other men in my lifetime. However, I did not for one simple reason: IT IS WRONG. Many, many people do not have affairs for the very same reason: IT IS WRONG. My commitment to my family means much more than my "feelings." So please don't try and convince me that there is a moral equivalence between adulterers and non adulterers - there ain't. Behavior is a result of one's CHARACTER, whether you want to realize it or not. You can pretend that all bad behavior is some random thing that just "happens" to people, but that is a cop out.And to say that there is moral equivalence between adultery and something like, anger [which all married people experience at one time or another] is a major leap and just doesn't work. Further, adultery is a moral issue,[not just another "type" of relationship] anger is not. Adultery is SO damaging to one's family that it is the ONE justifiable reason for divorce in the Christian religion - the other vows are not.Lastly, if you see nothing wrong with adultery and are not repentent, what's the problem here? Why all the tortured justifications, explanations, logical gymnastics, etc? You don't need our approval.

You know, I was talking to a friend tonight and I realized something, probably for the first time since my affair. I am truly, TRULY embarrassed by the fact that I had it. I'm not talking about the kind of embarrassed that makes me turn red, I'm talking about the kind that makes me want to hide under a rock.Further, I am to the point that I honestly don't give a crap what happens to the OM. I haven't seen him in ten months, and I hope to never see him again in my life. He was the worst thing I've ever allowed into my life, not because he was abusive, or a bad man, or a cad, but because I allowed him in, when I should have been listening to my soul, and abided by my character, which had never given in to "feelings" before that. For eighteen years, even when my (then)H cheated, I did not. Then, I did. I still can't believe it. I can't believe that was ME. What in the hell was I thinking? Or maybe, I should say, clearly, I **wasn't** thinking.I have never been more horrified than I am at this moment by what I did. It changed my life forever. I can NEVER take it back. I can go forward, try to be a good person, try to show my friends and family that I'm not a scummy whore (and I'm not!)... but it's just damn sad that I have to do it at all.All because of feelings.Now, isn't that sad?

robyn, what I am doing now is making myself available (both in person, and emotionally) to a reconcilliation effort based on MB principles, including MB counselling with Jennifer, at my wifes request. That doesn't mean I am unwilling, after all the dust had settled, and a great deal of introspection, as well as conversation with ow, I (and she) came to understand there is no other ethical course of action. Actually the ow is even more adamant, that one cannot just leave cause not in-love (one just does duty forever). We differ on that, I don't think one should remain married unless they are in-love, my wife is aware of this too. Further, I do not think love is a decision, but neither is it a feeling only.... it is both. Which means as hard as one may try, it is entirely possible, to not love your spouse.....divorce does not have to happen, folks can enter a sort of business arrangement, agreeing to meet each others needs, but it is not love. Humans are capable of a different kind of bonding, a deeper can't imagine life without you bond, that is what I would define love as. IMO a simple test is one of looking at your spouse, and imagining them gone....if it does not evoke any particularly strong sense of loss, you are not in love. Caring for someone is not passionate intimate love, and IMO that is what marriage is about.jd...Every thing doesn't have to be analyzed with the engineer mindset. Like a piece of equipment on the production line. But if you or any WS is gonna take a marriage(BS) apart and see what makes it tick, all I would ask the WS is to do the same with the OP. I would wager that not many people could stand up to that kind of scrutiny.snl...I agree, and I looked at the ow HARD, all the time. I am an analytical type temperament, and while I may have some fog issues with my emotions, I am not a fool. It is customary for the bs to trash all op as schemeing, manipulative, lowlifes....but such is not necessarily the case. They may be a good person, who fits you well, and is also in an emotionally barren marriage, this is when it gets real tough to just walk away from.jd...Speaking only for myself, I can understand how ANY person could have an A. My BIG issue, and that of a lot of us, is the fact that if things were so bad at home then why not leave the marriage? snl...What I am not so sure bs undestand, is that when you become a ws you have left the marriage, you have divorced, if you truly bond with another (as opposed to the narcissistic adulterers). The ws typically emotionally withdraws, stops sexual activity, no longer treats spouse as a spouse, but more as a roomate, and one they don't get along well with at that. They typically expect the bs to agree to a divorce NOW, so the timing is a little off, but they do leave. The problem is the stubborn BS won't let em go peacefully, then all H*** breaks loose. IMO when this kind of affair occurs, the marriage is indeed over, and reconcilliation means one will remarry. That means the bs has now become a compeitor, and must use dating strategies, is not fair, but is the psychological reality, and is a bitter pill for the bs to swallow. But those who do, have (IMO) a greater chance of recovery.The thing the bs doesn't get is that it was so bad, and they did leave, they just didn't say goodbye. The bs then sometimes (in the shock) gets stuck at this point, goes into melt-down and adds colateral damage to the trainwreck. In many ways I suspect psychologically an affair is much like a car accident, or a routine trip to the doctor and finding it is a terminal cancer, not indigestion. There is great need for decisive, effective, immediate action, but you are in shock, and paralyzed....those who can recover quicker, do useful stuff (stop the bleeding, get the stomach surgury NOW, etc. etc.) have a greater survival rate. There is absolutely no benefit to gnashing of teeth, guilting the spouse, wringing of hands....THE DEED IS DONE, you need to take effective, immediate, action NOW. jd...Then the lies are so hard to take on top of the A. Why not simply be honest. And don't change history. You say that BS make WS out to be some sort of evil person. What is the WS trying to do when they tell these lies AND change something to fit what they want it to be to justify their actions?snl....I engaged in very little revision. I had already endured years of disillusionment, failed counselling, etc. so maybe I am a small percentage of ws. But I did focus on the negatives more (I think that is kinda inevitable, not really that hard to understand, comes with the territory). And I did say some pretty awful things to w when she was pressuring me with guilt type stuff. I did so because you become an animal, you are reacting instinctively, emotional defense, life and death. It is extremely detrimental, and downright dangerous to confront a ws this way. The emotional volatility is off the scale, you go nuts. I am a calm, nice, non-violent person, I went nuts more than once, scared the hell out of my wife, scared the hell out of me, totally lost control, hurt her twice (in the struggles which come with the intensity), it is awful. If a bs could get in the mind of a ws under these circumstance you would no longer wonder why you are not supposed to confront us. When the harleys talk about no LB, this isn't just some dry psychological theory, this is serious stuff. You will absolutely NEVER get anywhere reasoning with us. WE DON'T CARE, we are past caring, we are only reacting. Leave us be, if guilt is gonna work you don't have to do anything but wait, we will do it to ourselves. But when you come at us, demanding we feel guilty, you are playing with dynamite.jd...I've been with my wife for 22 years counting the time we dated, 19 of them married. My wife tells me she never knew what love was??? What the heck is that? Oh there is tons more but you get the point.snl...And therein lies the tale. You must not take offense at that, you must get her to talk, and if you listen, you will find your answers between her words, but bs have a hard time listening. The funny (not haha) thing is most ws will tell you all you need to know, but few of the bs can tolerate hearing about the op. If you could somehow take on the appearance of a trusted non-judgemental friend, your ws will tell you everything you need to know. Sheer torture I know. I regularly tried to pour out my heart to my w about the ow, my feelings, my travails, my fears.....she did not listen, made her angry, and I just kept on talking with ow, she understood, she cared, she listened, she did not judge. Finally 5 months after D, circumstances finally brought things to a head, but if ow had not been so adamant about not breaking up my marriage (or hers) until we tried to fix them, I may very well have left w without trying. You bs do what you will, be secure in your rights and your morality, and your ethics, but those strategies might not serve you very well. Not saying sometimes confrontation doesn't work, but I suspect more often than not it just drives your ws away. jd...It is nice to read that you have real guilt feelings about what you did. Maybe not about the A, but about having it while still with your W.snl....ws are not insensitive louts (most of the time), I suspect few ws (even the serial ones) really don't care. It is just that I think human beings inherently know you cannot base relationships on guilt, so act in their own self-interest. That is why you don't guilt your ws back, you woo em back. And yes, I don't regret the affair, but I do regret the distress, and I will never have another. I will keep my relationship up to speed, or leave. But the problem in large part is kids, young children greatly skew this whole issue, causing both bs and ws to do things differently. If we did not have 4 kids, we would have fixed the marriage or divorced long ago. For me, divorce was never an option, no matter how miserable I was, but now I wonder, what would have happened had I met the ow earlier in life.

OMG I'm practically speachless. Thank you for opening up to us. Your input has helped me. But if you want your marriage to work, and I think you do or you wouldn't be here, please please show her affection. Let her know she is special to you. There was someone here who used to say if you just do it, it will come. You try, then she may respond, simple as that.I've been very tempted this past weekend with a man I am attracted to. Please hold your w. The old feelings may come out. only my ws would even sleep in the same bed with me it would make such a difference. I have no idea how this post will appear. I have aol and I type things and then they disapear. What I am trying to say is that I admire your willingness to figure out what happened, but I think that you have to figure out where you want to go and the fact that you are here seems to me that you want your marriage, so get off the computerand go hold your wife.sleep tight! bye.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nyneve: It changed my life forever. I can NEVER take it back. I can go forward, try to be a good person, try to show my friends and family that I'm not a scummy whore (and I'm not!)... but it's just damn sad that I have to do it at all.All because of feelings.Now, isn't that sad?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think that true character is not in being "perfect" [because none of us are] but how we handle our shortcomings afterward. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dana114: I think that true character is not in being "perfect" [because none of us are] but how we handle our shortcomings afterward. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have no idea what your kind words mean to me tonight.I've been here, at this site, for two years. I can't believe that this "hit me" tonight, but I promise, it did, and it hit squarly between the eyes.I've made so many mistakes in my life, and yet, I am still blessed...I think I am finally beginning to realize the depth of those blessings.Thank you, again. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

A Toast to you Dana!!I agree with you 100%. My H has been trying to persuade everyone about that type of "crap" for the last 5 months---oops, let me correct that--at least the last 10 years.I am so sick of listening to it. Adultery is wrong. There is no justification for it. It just shows a lack of moral conviction. The lies, the deceit, the justifications from a person having an affair---send ripples of devastation through the spouse, the kids, the relatives, the friends--and it goes on and on. It is just complete selfishness. I keep reading the excuses and the rationales the ws spews forth....I think I see someone having a hard time with their own conscience. NO ONE should have that right to inflict that kind of pain on their spouse. What a cowardly act.If the marriage was so intollerable, honesty, communication, counseling, marriage seminars---all would have been a better alternative than having an affair. If you are that unsatisfied with your marriage---GET HELP. I am sick of hearing the bullsh**! If you are not committed to your marriage and are so unhappy that you don't want to try anymore--than get a divorce--then look for another relationship. Better go...I am venting.

dana...I hear you, and understand your point of view, there is no way to prove the psychologists right or wrong with certainty. Nor is there any point in debateing this issue. I happen to agree with the psychologists, but then I am biased, so that means nothing. A few months before the affair I was in a discussion about adultery on a religion debate board. I made many of the same comments you just did (plus existed in a barren marriage for many many years with nary a glance at ow), and ended with saying I would rather die than committ adultery. They say God moves in mysterious ways, and pride always goeth before the fall....are you being prideful dana?as for your theological observations, there is much room for discussion re those issues, but not now (I have done some here in the past)....the Bible has much to say about anger, and it is a very serious issue, one you can indeed leave a spouse over (as in send them away, one can debate whether that means divorce or not). Further you imply (as is common) that one sin is better than another, they are all the same. Adultery is no better or worse than any other marital sin, and it can be argued that the mention of adultery is symbolic of any kind of marital desertion. If not, there is no basis for divorcing a husband who beats you everyday, do you feel a woman in such a marriage must remain married forever to this man? Would you? However, for the record, while I had a PA, there was no intercourse, it was a boundary we set....and kept. Biblically speaking, I think intercourse is necessary before one gets their forehead tatooed with a scarlet A.

snl,A have a few comments in response to your thread.Unlike many BS's, I do believe anyone is capable of having an A. I am no more ethical or moral than my W. My character is no greater. If I was truly as unhappy as my W and the situation and opportunity were reversed, who knows what I may have done? However, the big difference between my W and I is that I would have confided in her (or a close friend, family member or counselor) about my unhappiness, not an opposite-sex acquantance from work. Also, I know that "control" is a big issue for you. I am/was the controlling partner in my marriage, as is/was your W. However, for there to be a "controller", there has to be a "controllee", someone who allows their spouse to have control. I think you and my W need to take your share of the responsibility for that, just as your W and I should. I've taken responsibilty for my past behavior that contributed to our problems, namely angry outbursts, criticism and being a controller. So far my W has not. Everyting is my fault. Maybe if/when her A ends and she is seeing things more clearly, she'll be able to look at the whole picture and she'll see that we're both to blame for the state of our marriage prior to her A. If and when that happens, I believe we can open up lines of communication we've never had. I am not one of those BS's that sits around and wonders how could my W do this. It happened and I only hope we can get past it and give our marriage a real chance. If that happens, I'll focus on the problems in our marriage, not the A. The A is a byproduct of our problems, not the cause of them. If my W ever decides to reconcile, I'll focus my time, effort and energy on rebuilding our marriage, not her A. I won't hold it over her head, but let it serve as a constant reminder of how I lost sight of what's really important, my marriage and my family.sad dad

sad (and other interested parties)....this controlling issue is complicated, it ranges from abusive behaviour )physical/mental intimidation), to your garden variety aner, disrespect etc. It is not easy to deal with, I argued with my wife a lot, did little good. She was willing to be angry longer and harder than me, I wanted some semblance of harmony, so I shut up...... and withdrew. I doubt this could be altered, maybe similar in your family. There is no doubt in my mind that the incidence of marital disharmony (and especially controlling behaviour) is directly related to the perception other spouse will not leave marriage. My w KNEW I hated the idea of divorce, she used that against me. My A was a shock to her (as it always is to a controller when we escape), without it, I doubt I would ever have got her attention..... Now what to do, often (and is true for me) the ws gets a view of emotional freedom, and it feels really really good. You had no idea how starved you had become, how mal-nourished, and you are absolutely determined not to go back...that is what you must deal with....convincing your w you will never treat her like that again. Not cause you are a bad person, but because you are who you are, and she does not want that. I have been adamant, and steadfast, I did not like my wife, and I will not stay unless she makes fundamental changes, I will not give up my emotional survival. It is too complex to discuss all the psychology between me and my wife. I don't expect her to become a slave to me or anything. It is just our life must be different, and she must convince me, she loves me, not just needs me, as I should convince her too. It is politically correct to say each partner is 50/50, no one is perfect, blah blah blah. True, I am not, I know what her needs are, and I don't meet em cause I don't want too. I am meeting a few more now cause she has made no demands to do so, has done very little critizing (her main LB), has stopped controlling. I am not doing so cause I decided to do so, I just kinda want to, that is how it works. I will be lambasted for saying this, but the problem in our marriage is not me, it was her choice of marital coping, she was in charge, and the one who is in charge is the one who is at fault, comes with the territory. Now we do have legitimate temperament, and behavioural differences, that should we reconcile must be worked out, but first, the power issues have to be resolved, maybe so for you too. Below is a link to amazon for a book which explains far better than I the control/controllee dance that exists in every marriage...they call it dominance/submission...every marriage is a balance of these traits, and an imbalance leads to marital breakdown. It is actually a psychological text and of immense value in understanding this stuff, I suggest you (and your wife) read it. <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060923091/qid=998543000/sr=8-1/107-0737265-6115742" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060923091/qid=998543000/sr=8-1/107-0737265-6 115742</A> Here is a link to an excerpt <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0060923091/excerpt/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_3/107-0737265-6115742" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0060923091/excerpt/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_3/107-0737265-6115742</A> [This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 23, 2001).]

SnL, I don't usually get over here, but I'm glad I did tonight as your post is fasinating and I'd like to bounce some stuff off of you and a few others here.1. "anyone could be a WS" I do agree with this now (at the ripe old age of 45) but would have voiced quite an argument before..hmmm about age 30/35...wonder if that difference of opinion is due to having observed humans for an extra 10-15 years. Just a thought.2."controllers"- in some ways, I wonder if the WS's A is the way they "take back" some type of control in their lives..maybe the loss of that control isn't just marriage related, but also career or financially related.3.Feelings- I agree that feelings are pure..neither right or wrong...we get screwed up when we act on them. I also think that feelings are probably the one thing that are concealed consistantly..no one wants to be wrong, hurt, ridiculed ect and who better to do that sort of damage then the one's we choose to love? So, it's almost a human trait to be dishonest about our feelings rather than injure or risk injury. The hardest part of recovery, for me, is to risk revealing my feelings to the one who has betrayed me. I agree that WS do not lie about everything, but as a BS who was blindsided by his A, I now have problems trusting my own judgement. How do I know what is a lie and isn't? I would imagine it is as difficult for him to reveal feelings to me knowing that his dishonesty has now been revealed, and he is, as you say, tainted. So the MB rules do help create a safety net. Which leads to next subject that I will simply group under..4. Strategies- your conversation with jd really made me think about our Dday, Plan A, Plan B, LB's, recovery rules, but this time through his(WS) eyes and I wonder what WS is really thinking. (At the risk of pirating your post- a short history) Together 14 years, relationship lost a lot of satisfaction for both of us about 3 years ago, his A started ~ 2 years ago, Dday 12/00, Plan A~ 2 mos, Plan B ~3 weeks, then Plan A since (in the sense that I just think that's a neat way to treat the one you love), then recovery started 4/01. Generally, both of us are pretty happy with the changes that have happened since recovery started. I guess my queston is how a WS feels during that whole thing. The only thing he ever really said about all of this is that he's glad something woke us up and made us start taking care of each other again. I think it's kind of interesting that initially he said that essentially we weren't meeting each others needs, but after 4-5 months that has changed to "I was just plain stupid and had been taking you for granted". So this "shifting of blame" is sort of interesting and I was just wondering what you all would make of it. Thanks for your time, T

Dear Sad_n_Lonely,I wonder what your handle would be if you did not take over your BS's screen name and invented your own name instead????Interestingly, you don't seem very sad nor lonely to me and you never did, so I find it very difficult to have sympathy for you in that regard...Ever since you came here, you have made it clear that you do not enjoy living with your wife and have not enjoyed her for years and yet you have not left home while you continue in your affair. I'm not sure what the status really is with your marriage, because frankly, I often get lost in your verboseness...I'm just wondering if you have discovered the understanding you sought after when you claimed to be seeking answers of your own at this site?OR are you just trying to give WS perspectives. It's difficult for me to trust your opinions because it seems to me like you are sort of taking advantage of so many confused BS's?BS's are not getting answers from their WS's and you are very willing to ramble on and on with your endless thoughts, but you yourself have admitted that you are confused. Why should MBers listen to anything you have to say?I hate to be the one to say this to you because I have always had a soft spot for you & your wife's situation, but are you making any progress toward rebuilding or are you just defending your position? Are you going to remain the "WS spokesperson" or are you going to repent before God and get busy about letting God restore some intimacy to your marriage?Just wondering. Please, don't think I'm judging you because I am not. Remember, I have a grown OC from an A with a MM. I am in no position to judge anyone as I would also be one of the ones with a scarlet A imbedded in my forehead and standing in the execution line... NEXT!

snl - as usual, I read all your posts and I find good information in them.Sim ilarly, the editorial page in the newspaper is my favorite section - not because I get reassurance reading common opinions, but because I can read different points of view and understand opposing arguments.I appreciate that you are willing to reveal your thoughts and opinions. As you know, I don't agree with everything you say.I won't refute each detail of your's that differs from my view, but just let me say this: Replace adultery or infidelity as your topic, with murder. Seems you can justify that, as well.Please keep posting. It's important to us all and, I think, especially to you.WAT

snl,Getting back to the control issue. My W and I seldom argued, maybe half a dozen real arguments in 5 years of marriage. We probably should have argued more, it is a healthy way for two people to express their feelings and opinions, unless one person continues the argument until the other gives in. That should have been a sign that something was wrong. Two people can't live together day in and day out for years without differences of opinion, thoughts, feelings, etc. However, if my W had something to say or feelings to express, it is up to her to let me know. I won't take responsibility for taking that choice away from her. If she chooses to give up to avoid a possible conflict, that's her choice. When my W told me last November how unhappy she was and the reasons for her unhappiness, I asked her why she didn't say something earlier. Her reply was that she didn't want to upset our family and didn't think she could talk to me about it. But when she did talk to me about it, she was calm and rational and never made me feel under attack. I listened to what she said, understood her reasons for being unhappy and accepted my role in her unhappiness. I never got defensive or told her she was wrong. It was a very good talk and a real eye-opener.The facts of the matter are this:she could and did talk to me about it, but put it off until much more damage was donealthough she didn't want to upset our family, she is having an A and we're on the verge of D I will take the blame for being difficult to talk to or to get through to sometimes, but being "difficult" is not an excuse for her confiding in another man about the problems in our marriage, and that's how this whole mess started. She could have turned to a friend or family member or written me a letter to express her feelings, but she didn't. It's better to face a conflict (some how, some way as difficult as that may be), than avoid it. sad dad

SNL - I guess it's time that I reply since I started the thread that I beleive you are reffering too. First, I'd like to thank you for you input as I believe that some of the information can be useful to others here. Secondly, I think you hit the nail on the head with my wife and why she had the A....but I think hers is a combination of these two.(Some have tried all they intend to, are in kind of a vulnerable limbo (emotionally divorce) and accidently start a relationship with someone else....come to realize it is ill-advised, but still have no desire to remain married, or even become more sure they don't want to be married. Some WS are seduced by manipulative predators, and become emotionally damaged and confused about who they are and what they want.) Based on your entire thread and the replys, I have to say I agree with DANA. I do not beleive that just anyone can have an A if put in the right position. I think that we are not put there, but we put ourselves there and so we can also take ourselves out of those situations. I can say this from experience. I have been in compromising positions on a couple of occasions and chosen too DO THE RIGHT THING. I did this not because I was scared that someone might find out or that I would hurt my W, I did it because it was the RIGHT THING TO DO. It is a character flaw in people that cause them to have A's. I think and I've said this before that Character is defined by the ones actions in accordance with Gods principles. If one follows the simple rules that he set up there would be much less misery in this world. And like you said, there would be an open book without taking advantage of people's financial situations.I also agree with TWYLA in that I do beleive that some not all WS's are trying to take back control when they have an A. In my case, I believe this to be true. She has complete control now and relishes the position to the point where it is over and beyond anything I ever had control over.The point that DANA and I are trying to make is that everyone has choices in life. At the fork in the road, we either choose the right way or the wrong way, there is no middle road. Some people choose the wrong way (WS's) and then there is no turning back. That is the difference between a BS and a WS. Why must psycologists anaylize this crap all the time. Sure humans make mistakes, but if we made the choice to be married we must know the difference between right and wrong. That is what is so devasting. The other item I wanted to address are sins. They are the saem I agree, but taking the Lord's nama in vain vs. comminting an adultry is totally different b/c one affects only one person and the other affects generations of families.

Twyla...1. "anyone could be a WS" I do agree with this now (at the ripe old age of 45) but would have voiced quite an argument before..hmmm about age 30/35...wonder if that difference of opinion is due to having observed humans for an extra 10-15 years. Just a thought.snl..I think age (aka experience) has a lot to do with it. Young people (I was no different) can do anything, know everything, my kids (4 23-15) regular tell me how to do everything from run my life, to drive my car....and they are VERY sure. At almost 51, I have decided they are right, I don't know much of anything at all, and am in no position to say anything about people with certainty [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

2."controllers"- in some ways, I wonder if the WS's A is the way they "take back" some type of control in their lives..maybe the loss of that control isn't just marriage related, but also career or financially related.snl...I think so, but mostly out of personal issues. I think a strong marriage can survive career, financial, etc. issues.3.Feelings- I agree that feelings are pure..neither right or wrong...we get screwed up when we act on them. I also think that feelings are probably the one thing that are concealed consistantly..no one wants to be wrong, hurt, ridiculed ect and who better to do that sort of damage then the one's we choose to love? So, it's almost a human trait to be dishonest about our feelings rather than injure or risk injury. The hardest part of recovery, for me, is to risk revealing my feelings to the one who has betrayed me.snl...I agree, and cali posted a good insight to this issue in a reply to chaz.twyla...I agree that WS do not lie about everything, but as a BS who was blindsided by his A, I now have problems trusting my own judgement. How do I know what is a lie and isn't? I would imagine it is as difficult for him to reveal feelings to me knowing that his dishonesty has now been revealed, and he is, as you say, tainted. So the MB rules do help create a safety net. snl...Yes, MB principles help. But finally everyone (bs and ws) has to make a leap of faith. Decide to trust, make themself vulnerable, and risk great injury if the trust is misplaced. IMO this itself helps create more trust, and not trusting helps create more secrecy....this is so hard, not being able to have gaurantees, but being vulnerable is the essential part of loving methinks.4. Strategies- your conversation with jd really made me think about our Dday, Plan A, Plan B, LB's, recovery rules, but this time through his(WS) eyes and I wonder what WS is really thinking. snl....I discussed this with my wife, and came up with an analogy related to the movie shogun, and the japaneese practice of hari kari, that helps explain the emotional place a ws is in, maybe I will post that analogy. As to what he is thinking.....is pretty straigtforward, I don't want to do this, but I know I must (reconcilliation efforts), which is why we seem to waffle, we are waffling.twyla...I guess my queston is how a WS feels during that whole thing. The only thing he ever really said about all of this is that he's glad something woke us up and made us start taking care of each other again. snl...Then for whatever reason he either hasn't done the work to figure out why, and there are reasons, there are always reasons....or he knows and does not want to say. I am compulsively honest, I tell my wife everything, always have (until affair), it overloads her, she won't deal with it....unfortuneately it is my greatest EN, the ow valued this, and her husband wouldn't hear her...I did. People differ a lot about this, is an interesting subject in itself, and is a huge problem when people are mismatched this way.Twyla...I think it's kind of interesting that initially he said that essentially we weren't meeting each others needs, but after 4-5 months that has changed to So this "shifting of blame" is sort of interesting and I was just wondering what you all would make of it.snl...Hard to say without having more input from (or about) your husband. But if I had to guess, I would say their is still important stuff you don't know about, and I would encourage him to dig a lot deeper. One way is to get your ws to talk about the op to you as if you were a friend and pouring out their heart to you. Also sometimes it seems the ws suffers great guilt and embarassment, and seeks to avoid this (naturally) by just pretending it never happened...ie "I was just plain stupid and had been taking you for granted". You may want to consider not letting him get away with avoidance like that. That statement is designed (maybe not on purpose, but all the same) to placate you, so you will no longer question him (IMO). Human beings are very creative and very devious, even with ourselves. An affair is a serious matter, and the reasons it happened need to be fully understood and dealt with, not trivialized, or dismissed with a sentence of two. Good luck to ya.

Duty, vows, sacrifice, none of that counts for a thing.......****** i will pray for you to find the Lord. you sound like the same pathetic, pontificating person my wife fell for. I hope your children do not follow your moral leadership…. peace,hope,trust

Nyn....You know, I was talking to a friend tonight and I realized something, probably for the first time since my affair. I am truly, TRULY embarrassed by the fact that I had it. I'm not talking about the kind of embarrassed that makes me turn red, I'm talking about the kind that makes me want to hide under a rock. Further, I am to the point that I honestly don't give a crap what happens to the OM. I haven't seen him in ten months, and I hope to never see him again in my life. sheryl, you are an interesting person, I have concluded you are very emotional, and perhaps aren't sure you are really a good person. I am just a lowlife ws, but I think you are just fine, and way too hard on yourself. nyn...I should have been listening to my soul, and abided by my character, which had never given in to "feelings" before that. For eighteen years, even when my (then)H cheated, I did not. Then, I did. I still can't believe it. I can't believe that was ME. What in the hell was I thinking? Or maybe, I should say, clearly, I **wasn't** thinking.snl...You did what the sum total of your life, and your genetics dictated you do at that point in time. The issue is not what you did, but did you learn anything, and I would say you did. Hindsight is always 20/20 and completely useless, such is one of the great truths of "maturity". The folks who misunderstand me, and suggest vague family resembleances to clinton miss the mark. I am a pragmatic realist, in the real world that an affair occurs is irrelevant, but what you do about it makes all the difference in the world. Clinton was a serial cheater, and a self-serving rationalizer. I am neither, this is my one and only failure re affair type issues, I am sorry it happened, but I also realize there was nothing I could do, it was not a planned choice, history can not be rewritten, I did what I did cause I did it, it is a done deal. Likewise my various analytical posts. I am fully aware many people have not the desire nor the skills (sometimes) to go where I go as I delve into the whys and wherefores of human behaviour. And that is ok, but this stuff is important to me, I want to know what happened and why in DETAIL. I also want to know what love is and why I should remain married..IN DETAIL....that is how I cope, and I think it is a good way to cope. I do know that at some point you must still act, and I am, I am doing mostly the right stuff ala MB...but I still want to know why. I also think the more bs try to get into the minds of their ws (and their own minds) the better they will be able to choose effective actions.nyn...I have never been more horrified than I am at this moment by what I did.snl...How do you reconcile that with you new H which came about in part cause of the choices that horrify you? Will he allways be a reminder of that? (and yes I am messing with your mind, but for a purpose). nyn...It changed my life forever. I can NEVER take it back.snl..A truth I readily understand. Interestingly the ow thinks she can go back, and it is messing her up a lot. Denial is bad bad bad no matter what form it takes.nyn...I can go forward, try to be a good person, try to show my friends and family that I'm not a scummy whore (and I'm not!)... but it's just damn sad that I have to do it at all.snl..Of course you aren't. And God loves all his children, even scummy whores (and the equivalent males).....let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone....nyn...All because of feelingssnl...and without feelings we would be what?......... animals or robots.......I vote for feelings, how about you?You are a good woman sheryl.

need....Duty, vows, sacrifice, none of that counts for a thing....... ****** i will pray for you to find the Lord. you sound like the same pathetic, pontificating person my wife fell for. I hope your children do not follow your moral leadership…. peace,hope,trustsnl....Sorry if I upset you any. Of course they count, I was making a point about human behaviour, the forces that drive us, pretending they don't or can be changed by simply willing it to be so is foolish. So often folks glibly throw out that one should just do what is "right'...of course they mean what they think is right. I am suggesting there is a whole lot more to it than that, and those who "think" they will always do the right thing just because it is right, without making the effort to understand themselves and their feelings are just an accident looking for a place to happen.I am sorry to hear about your wife. I don't know how many of my posts you have read to conclude I am pathetic, I would guess not enuf. If it is any consolation at all, I never encouraged ow (or she me) to leave our spouses. But I did encourage her to hold him accountable for his abusive behaviour (control, and neglect), and I did tell her if he won't change, or if she does not love him passionately, I think it is unworkable for people to do sacrificial marriage just to satisfy God...He knows what is in our hearts, and it does not work from a behavioural standpoint either. There is little reason for a dysfunctional marriage to exist. We wanted to be friends, and when it became more we understood we have to deal with our spouses fairly, and let the chips fall where they will, including giving up each other. I too hope my children do not follow this example, and I am taking steps to make sure they understand what happened and that is was not the proper way to behave. I am also taking steps (I would not have understood before) to help them in developing better mate selection skills and why that is important. On other counts I set a good example, and on this as well, since they all think I am pretty pathetic as well now. Thank-you for your prayers, I need all the help I can get. [This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 23, 2001).]

Hi snl,I just wanted to talk about this one thing you asked... and before I do, thank you for your kind words about me, they were very much appreciated... that said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely: nyn...I have never been more horrified than I am at this moment by what I did.snl...How do you reconcile that with you new H which came about in part cause of the choices that horrify you? Will he allways be a reminder of that? (and yes I am messing with your mind, but for a purpose). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, well, here's the deal... and yes, it's a VERY good question. I, honest to God, do not see my H as part and parcel with the affair I had. I had an affair during my marriage. It was the biggest mistake of my life. My (then)H had affairs of his own and basically ended the marriage. He moved out a few times. The last time he moved out, to me, it was OVER.I filed for divorce.I began a dialogue with my (now)H. Yes, I **should** have waited until my divorce was FINAL before getting involved with him, but in order to live in MY skin, I have decided to cut myself a BIG BREAK on this. I have the rest of my life to live (and God willing it will be a good long time) and I want to be a good wife to my H. I never blamed him in any way for the demise of my marriage because it was over. You know, I have had two emails from people who have read what I wrote above, both telling me to quit beating myself up... and Lord knows, I've tried. I think it's time.What do you think?

sheryl, I think self-introspection is good, and kicking oneself in the butt on occassion is healthy. But I do not believe in self-flagellation (sp?). Beating oneself up is unhealthy, and often a means of eliciting sympathy (and possibly in a controlling way). One can and should love themself, and God commands this as well. One can and should forgive themself, and improve. If one is a serial murderer or something, I think they should kill themself, cause they should hate who they are. But most of us are simply flawed humans, who are motivated to change, and being positive is gonna make that more likely than if we beat ourselves up, and feel we are unworthy. I think guilt is a pretty much useless emotion (and so do most psychologists). Life is what it is, we do what we do, rightly or wrongly. We make a mistake, we own up to it, make restitution, learn from it, hopefully improve and move on.....is waaaaaaaaay past time for you to move on. You constantly apologize for your mistakes, it makes you appear like a drama queen (in kinda the opposite way...no offense, I say as I duck behind my screen...but a nice drama queen). The issue isn't really what any of us think sheryl, you allready knew the answer before you asked the question....right? The real issue is why do you feel a need for validation in this way, and only you know the answer to that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely: dana...I hear you, and understand your point of view, there is no way to prove the psychologists right or wrong with certainty. Nor is there any point in debateing this issue. I happen to agree with the psychologists, but then I am biased, so that means nothing. A few months before the affair I was in a discussion about adultery on a religion debate board. I made many of the same comments you just did (plus existed in a barren marriage for many many years with nary a glance at ow), and ended with saying I would rather die than committ adultery. They say God moves in mysterious ways, and pride always goeth before the fall....are you being prideful dana?as for your theological observations, there is much room for discussion re those issues, but not now (I have done some here in the past)....the Bible has much to say about anger, and it is a very serious issue, one you can indeed leave a spouse over (as in send them away, one can debate whether that means divorce or not). Further you imply (as is common) that one sin is better than another, they are all the same. Adultery is no better or worse than any other marital sin, and it can be argued that the mention of adultery is symbolic of any kind of marital desertion. If not, there is no basis for divorcing a husband who beats you everyday, do you feel a woman in such a marriage must remain married forever to this man? Would you? However, for the record, while I had a PA, there was no intercourse, it was a boundary we set....and kept. Biblically speaking, I think intercourse is necessary before one gets their forehead tatooed with a scarlet A.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>SNL,I found many of thing you say very interesting & informative. If I didn't know better I swear you were my STBX. Like you he uses the Bible to justify his behavior & to make it my entire fault. Don't get me wrong I have always acknowledge my part in our problems but unlike him, I was willing to try & correct them, but no matter how hard I tried it wasn't good enough, then I stopped. There are some things I wish I had done a little differently but for the most part I gave it my best, except maybe losing weight but if I had had any kindness from him, it would had been gone.The following is what I received from my STBX when I questioned him having our sons, especially the 9 yr old around OW (he is living with her, & I objected to them being around her while we are still married, I finally settled on her not being at the house if they spend the night, she wasn't at 1st but I have not questioned them to see if this is being held to) Anyway thought you might find this interesting.<<I realize that this is a difficult time. However, I don't think you should dwell on the morals issue too much; we had the very model of a Biblical marriage. I worked and supported the household, and you were in charge of the boys and the house. Look at II Corinthians and the other letters and explore the roles of the male and female. Our marriage was the perfect example.Marriage is a contract; the question that should be asked is who broke the contract first. If I look at the Biblical model, I would say that I kept my end of the bargain. Did you keep yours? You often throw out comments from OS about our situation - did you hear him say why he didn't like to have his friends over. His words - the house is always so messy. And that was in..... In., I often worried that someone would turn us in for living in unsanitary conditions. My parents questioned me - saying that I was not brought up this way.Morals mean values - yes, my living situation is not the most moral according to the Bible. Do you claim that yours is? The way you live your daily life is also part of your morals system, and the way that you fulfilled your obligations was not moral.This is what drove us apart - more than anything else. I go with things and go with things, until finally I blow up about it. By this point, it is too late. Do you really think I would have ever have become involved with OW if my needs had been me.None the less, I know that I will turn out being the bad guy in this deal. >>Now I admit I am/wasn't the best housekeeper in the world, but it wasn't as bad as he makes it out to be, I don't know what else I didn't do that didn't fulfill my moral obligations. My STBX traveled up to 60% of the time for the last 17 yrs, my children were well loved, take care of, he never had to worry that I would go off the deep end & do harm to them, they were at church 3 times a wk, were fed, maybe too much fast food, & didn't miss any or very little of the actives that they were involved in. I was an active volunteer at their schools, at church, their sports, kept my neighbors children when needed, a friends when she had a preemie for a yr, this child was with us all the time, I had 2 2 yr olds almost every day. I paid all of our bills, never let him know how things were, my mistake. I tried to do everything. I have the yd mowed before he came home so he wouldn't have to do it. He was very rarely asked to do Honey do list around the house, he was given time to run every day, karate twice to three times a week, a city wide member ship to the Y to work out at work (OW moved in on him there)& I all I asked for was some time with him, did I get it no. I didn't keep house, gained weight & in the end didn't meet his SF but you know what it is hard to have sex with someone who only has time for you in bed when it is convenient for him. But I am the one according to him that broke our marriage contract 1st; sorry I always thought the only way to break a marriage contract was adultery.Sorry but I guess it really gets me when people use the Bible to justify their A. I really do think you make a lot of good & valid points.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely: Beating oneself up is unhealthy, and often a means of eliciting sympathy (and possibly in a controlling way). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I bet it's no surprise to you that this has been mentioned to me before. All I can tell you is this, whether you believe me or not: last night, as I wrote the words, I was bawling my eyes out. Pain is pain is pain, as you well know. I could have kept my feelings to myself, therefore not "eliciting sympathy" but... why should I? I do hear you, and as I said, it's been mentioned before. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You constantly apologize for your mistakes, it makes you appear like a drama queen (in kinda the opposite way...no offense, I say as I duck behind my screen...but a nice drama queen). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>See, here's where you and I differ -- although yes, I am nothing if not a drama queen (and yeah, thanks, a nice one) -- I don't see a problem apologizing for my mistakes. I don't see a problem remembering what I did that hurt so many, and I don't see a problem saying how I feel (just as I don't see a problem with you saying how you feel). I read your original post, and I didn't think to myself: Hey, he's not apologizing enough... because, it's not who you are... it IS who I am. It's icky, eh? To hear it all the time... and yeah, there I go again with the validation. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Habit, maybe.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:

Quote

Originally posted by sad_n_lonely: Beating oneself up is unhealthy, and often a means of eliciting sympathy (and possibly in a controlling way). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I bet it's no surprise to you that this has been mentioned to me before. All I can tell you is this, whether you believe me or not: last night, as I wrote the words, I was bawling my eyes out. Pain is pain is pain, as you well know. I could have kept my feelings to myself, therefore not "eliciting sympathy" but... why should I? I do hear you, and as I said, it's been mentioned before. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You constantly apologize for your mistakes, it makes you appear like a drama queen (in kinda the opposite way...no offense, I say as I duck behind my screen...but a nice drama queen). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>See, here's where you and I differ -- although yes, I am nothing if not a drama queen (and yeah, thanks, a nice one) -- I don't see a problem apologizing for my mistakes. I don't see a problem remembering what I did that hurt so many, and I don't see a problem saying how I feel (just as I don't see a problem with you saying how you feel). I read your original post, and I didn't think to myself: Hey, he's not apologizing enough... because, it's not who you are... it IS who I am. It's icky, eh? To hear it all the time... and yeah, there I go again with the validation. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Habit, maybe.

Sheryl, I wish you could forgive yourself. I think you are a wonderful person. HUGS & more HUGS

sing, lest their be any confusion I DO NOT look to the Bible for justification, nor do I look to the Bible to make my wife the wrong person. Mostly I RESPOND to those who use the Bible to further their agendas (that what I did was wrong). My point being they really can't prove that, and even the effort to do so detracts from what I think is the important focus....WHY, what happened, what is the psychology of the 3 individuals (H W and OP) and the psychology of the marriage that led to this outcome. And upon understanding that, should or should not the marriage continue, and in what manner. That is all I am concerned about...... However, I am also concerned about the theological issues, and have given a great deal of thought to marital doctrine, it is not what people think it is (most of who have done little or no study of the matter, and just accept the prevailing cultural expectations). I too, had just assumed stuff, the first thing you realize is that no one knows God's will, it is really all just educated guesses to one degree or another. But the fundamental observation is simple, if the Bible is advocating a simplistic truth, that marriage is an absolute, that implies it makes no difference who you marry, so why even date? But observational psychology tells us it makes a huge difference who we marry. One could say that is just placing arbitray expectations of happiness, but their is empirical evidence. That being "happily" married people live longer than unhappily or single people, that is a significant datum, and supports the notion that the condition of the marriage is important, which implies who you marry makes a difference, which implies that marriage is not an absolute. No Christian doctrine can conflict with observable realities, if it does, the theological interpretation must be wrong, God did not make 2 realites, a secular one and a Christian one. Therefore the problem lies in our interpretation of marriage, and the misunderstanding starts (IMO) with assuming marriage means a piece of paper, and vows said in a church. Neither make you spiritually married, nor does the Bible mention either standard. The fact is inescapable IMO, many people who think they are married, are only legally married, they are not spiritually married. Freewill insures we will make all kinds of errors in life, that cannot somehow excude marital errors. Spiritual marriage requires at least two things mentioned specifically (but not defined with precision)...cleaveing, and oneflesh, and therein lies the truths about marriage. People can and often do not cleave, but remain with their primary emotional/psychological focus on their FOO, not their spouse (my wife is one such by her own admission, and of course I "felt" this for 23 years). And their is something specific that must occur for oneflesh to be true, unfortuneately we have no way of measuring this, and it is between us and God, no one can tell us if we married with the requisite intent, and ability to become oneflesh with the individual we are attempting to bond with. These are extremely disquieting concepts for many, who wish to simply say I am married cause I am, cause I went to church, cause I mouthed promises. But marriage is 2 tiered, making a concious choice is only part of it, the other part occurs in our spirit, our heart as is usually said, and it is not amenable to analysis, but it is discernible if you look hard enough, I think. Clearly many people marry with less than pure intentions, selfish agendas, etc. God is not going to just give you a free ride, there are consequences to bad choices, and not choosing the mate God intended for you is not going to be rewarded. I don't have the answers to how all this work, but I am certain I have the issues identified, and I am certain marriage is not an absolute. Those who take it as so are idol worshipers, worshiping marriage as an icon in a legalistic manner. They do not seek truth or understanding, they seek validation and are no different than anyone else who wants what they want and tries to make it ok by using "rules" supposedly handed down by God. In the final analysis no one can tell you whether you are spiritually married or not, it is a matter between you and God.My feelings after reading your post (and husbands email) was indeed a rationalization. A comparision of who was at more fault, the old my sin isn't as bad as your sin, which of course is a meaningless exercise. I too was done with my marriage, regardless of reasons, I was past giving any, I was just done, it wasn't working, I had no hope it ever would. I chose not to blame anyone, but to accept that we could not function together, brought the worse out of each other, were no good for each other. I bore my wife no ill-will, and fully intend to honor my social obligation to care for her needs the rest of her life, and fill whatever emotional needs she had, but not be in an intimate daily relationship with someone I was not passionate about. Nor did I want to be in a intimate relationship with someone who only needed me, and would just love whoever she was married too, I want to be loved for me, for who I am.The only reason we are not divorced now is I am a cautious person. I recognized the serious complexity of my emotional state, and was willing to consider maybe I am confused. So in reading books, and searching the internet for answers I discovered MB. I assessed the psychology is sound, and was willing to consider possible changes could happen I feel now are impossible. Further I assessed my behaviour and choices made (both marriage and affair) required I make myself available for this effort, to temporarily suspend my conclusions and be open to other truths (needed more data).It sounds like you had issues, legtitimate ones you had neglected and were willing to address. IMO your husband has erred by not giving you that chance. In so doing he has increased the likelihood he will fail in subsequent relationships, but that is his choice. You should still make all the changes, continue to love yourself, and trust that if you do the right things (including what plan a/b options you have), that the outcome will be what it should be. You give up the fear and angst to God, it is too much to handle, and in so doing you give up control of the outcome, which IMO is essential to healing. I belong to the school of thought that everything happens for a reason, the outcome is partly dependent on us looking at everything as an opportunity, when we allow ourselves to feel as victims, we throw away the opportunity. In many cases (if not all) every affair has the potential for positive ripples, sometimes it is all a matter of attitude, and perspective. Good Luck sing, you will be ok.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sing: Sheryl, I wish you could forgive yourself. I think you are a wonderful person. HUGS & more HUGS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you, dear sing. I'll take those hugs, and one up ya -- (((((sing)))))snl, One other thing. Your topic heading is about the psychology of WS. I have been a WS, and I have been a BS. I am going on what *I* know... when I answer, it is with MY psychology, which IS (hang with me here) WS psychology. It's MY WS PSYCHOLOGY. See? Maybe someone can learn from me too, and you, and others who see differently... Enjoyed the dialogue with you today... and good luck on the final word over on Recovery. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

SNL I have been exactly where you are now, and it took me eight years, and my wife's EA to realise my absolute ignorance. So ignorant I even believed my own BS, and that is all it is, BS. I said all the things you are saying right now. I spent years trying to justify my deplorable actions, and I was satisfied with my selfish justifications until my wife presented me with her own EA. That blew me and my theories of life right out of the water. I find your appraisal of your own situation interesting because I could have written all that 8 years ago. I also find it interesting that people are actually seeking your advice on this board. I agree with Dana's comments, I see my behaviour for what it was, complete and utter selfishness. I went into denial about it instead of remorse, and it came right back around and hammered me. What a suprise. Pull your head out of the sand SNL. The journey you are on might be exciting but you may not like the destination.

Thx trying, I am aware what you suggest may be true. As for advice, sometimes whether what the ws offers, is advice, or a glimpse into a ws mind, is a bit blurry. But I am not in a position of authority or status here, so folks do with what I post as they will. (and I make it generally clear exactly who and what I am). OTOH I am a student of human behaviour, a reasonably astute observer, and have a good mind, so despite my ethical shortcomings, I may indeed have valuable insights, suggestions....oft times illumination can be found in the oddest places, if one has an open mind.try...I spent years trying to justify my deplorable actions, and I was satisfied with my selfish justifications until my wife presented me with her own EA. That blew me and my theories of life right out of the water.snl...I can appreciate this is real life, and that we all are prone to rationalize our behaviour (ws and bs). However, I do not much care about justification, what is done is done, I don't lose any sleep over things I can do nothing about, my interest is in the now and the future. To that end I am proactive by choice, and to be so requires in-depth understanding, and that is what I seek.try...I agree with Dana's comments, I see my behaviour for what it was, complete and utter selfishness.snl..Dana may be right, it is a valid position.try...Pull your head out of the sand SNL. The journey you are on might be exciting but you may not like the destination.snl...Life is exciting, frightening, and boring often all at once. I can only live it, feel what I feel, and try to use the brain God gave me as best I can, and give the angst up to him. To that end I do not reject any opinions, and yours was welcome. Did you and your wife recover? What is your status now?

my goodness, what a wonderful, insightful thread. Thank you so much snl. This is also a bump up for anyone else who avoided it like I did. Why did I avoid it? I don't know... too long... um, to heavy.... um wasn't in the mood to think or open my mind.... but, here I am now, and I appreciate everyone's contribution....I wish I had something intelligent to say or ask. I'm just confused and trying to figure all this out, and figure out my best Plan A for myself and my H. I try not to overanalyze, but sometimes it is good to do. It is so helpful to get a glimpse into your mind, ad I know it is similar to my H's opinions and feelings. He is not analytical, nor a student of this stuff, but his htoughts and feelings are similar. I disagree with a lot you say, but I APPRECIATE so much learning, because you are right: everyone has opinions and feelings - right or wrong - and then, who knows what is right or wrong? And even if we're ALL wrong, we still have to figure out how to love and exist with each other, and discover how to be the best person we can.

Dear snl: Do you believe that all WS are being "controlled" in their marriages?From what I've read in this particular post, I have drawn the conclusion that you believe you were controlled by your wife in your marriage. Is this a safe assumption?With that in mind, I'm curious to know how you feel about your wife's comments below? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by thinker: My H and I post on this board. A lot of times we will read the stuff together, he usually tells me to correct something that he feels is not quite right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps what your wife has to say is what she truly believes. Perhaps what she has to say will hurt you as well. Are you not open to seeing yourself in her eyes?Do you believe that your opinion of the marriage is "right" and her opinion of the marriage "wrong"?Furthermore, how do you feel about your own comments below? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by snl: Thinker has read many of mine, and has caused numerous fights, but that seems to be how we do things. She likes the plan a, then clobber me approach, then plan a, then clobber me. But has gotten better. I say stuff here I know hurt's her like heck, but she needs to know the truth, and she won't let me tell her to her face (without serious LB, which too often leads to volatile confrontations). Although may seem odd, my #1 EN by far is emotional honesty. I have been frustrated for years cause she would not deal with my feelings, now she has too, probably one of the main reasons I feel no remorse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why do you believe that your wife "has to" deal with your feelings now? Do you not see this as controlling her behavior? Additionally, IMHO, it's one thing to be honest, a totally different thing to use honesty as a disguise to hurt and/or humiliate another human being. You say she has to listen NOW...but, what happens if she doesn't listen? Will you walk? Is this a threat?-------------------------And, what about the type of affair (if you can even fathom this) where the "controlling" spouse is the adulterer and the "controlled" spouse is the faithful one?Do you think this type of affair is possible?And, going back to the links that you referred us to...if I read correctly, when relationships begin, one partner takes the "dominant" role and the other partner takes the "submissive" role...ultimately, marriages decline as roles reverse. As you believe that you ended up being the submissive partner ("controlled") in your marriage, do you believe that your marriage began with you as the dominant (controlling) spouse?...and, out of curiosity, do you believe you were the dominant or submissive partner in regards to the relationship you shared with the OW?And, knowing what you've learned from reading the excerpt and/or the book, do you believe that your relationship with OW would have eventually changed along the course of time, as the book suggests?And/or, do you believe that you could correct the current state of your marriage by each of you taking on the opposite role?Of course, this would require each of you to accept and be willing to abide by new "rules"...somewhat, in my opinion, similar to agreeing to meet each other's needs....things that make you go "hmmmm". Peace, ~Marie------------------ I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. The Bible Matthew 17:20

marie, there is control and then there is control, which only means different kinds. Roughly I'd say breaks down into 2 caps, those who seek to control anothers actions and behaviours across the board, stuff most of us would recognize relatively easy, often fear and intimidation playing key roles....then there is the other kind, where one party sets the emotional agenda, usually through anger. And yes, that is what my wife did, she had no interest in, nor would discuss my feelings, she was only interested in hers, and we would discuss her stuff endlessly. Both by ourselves and in counselling. She would give lip service to mine, and then just ignore them. It was always about me, and fixing me, then she could love me, I would be worthy if I did....well you get the picture.Originally posted by thinker: My H and I post on this board. A lot of times we will read the stuff together, he usually tells me to correct something that he feels is not quite right. marie...Perhaps what your wife has to say is what she truly believes. Perhaps what she has to say will hurt you as well. Are you not open to seeing yourself in her eyes?snl...She absolutely believes her stuff, most controllers do, made no difference the counsellors told her stuff, she just says they don't know what they are talking about.marie...Do you believe that your opinion of the marriage is "right" and her opinion of the marriage "wrong"?snl...Absolutely.Furthermore, how do you feel about your own comments below?Originally posted by snl: Thinker has read many of mine, and has caused numerous fights, but that seems to be how we do things. She likes the plan a, then clobber me approach, then plan a, then clobber me. But has gotten better. I say stuff here I know hurt's her like heck, but she needs to know the truth, and she won't let me tell her to her face (without serious LB, which too often leads to volatile confrontations). Although may seem odd, my #1 EN by far is emotional honesty. I have been frustrated for years cause she would not deal with my feelings, now she has too, probably one of the main reasons I feel no remorse.marie...Why do you believe that your wife "has to" deal with your feelings now? Do you not see this as controlling her behavior?snl...No, it isn't. She has a choice, deal with em and maybe save her marriage, or not, and I am gone. She has elected to deal. Interestingly she accuses me (as you just suggested) of being controlling..... a common complaint of controllers when the prey escapes and they have to change if they want them back.marie...Additionally, IMHO, it's one thing to be honest, a totally different thing to use honesty as a disguise to hurt and/or humiliate another human being.snl..I agree, do you find my posts deliberately hurtful, as opposed to hurtful cause of the content?marie...You say she has to listen NOW...but, what happens if she doesn't listen? Will you walk? Is this a threat?snl...Not a threat, just an honest assessment of my feelings, I am done with this marriage, I will not change my mind (if it stays the same). I thought long and hard, tried for many years, I did not get to this point lightly, all the affair did was wake me up, and show me I can be loved, something I didn't realize I had come to doubt. I thought I was worthless, and useless as a spouse.marie...And, what about the type of affair (if you can even fathom this) where the "controlling" spouse is the adulterer and the "controlled" spouse is the faithful one?snl...They happen too. It is much harder for the bs to realize they are abused, and to try and hold the abuser accountable, cause they do not believe they can leave. These marriages have little chance of recovery. The abuser often has a serious personality disorder, and/or is a sociopath marie...Do you think this type of affair is possible?snl...Absolutely, I see some here in the stories told (assuming the bs is accurate).marie...And, going back to the links that you referred us to...if I read correctly, when relationships begin, one partner takes the "dominant" role and the other partner takes the "submissive" role...ultimately, marriages decline as roles reverse. As you believe that you ended up being the submissive partner ("controlled") in your marriage, do you believe that your marriage began with you as the dominant (controlling) spouse?snl...No, my wife has set the emotional agenda from our first date. The reason I broke up with her (the first time) was cause I started to feel bad about yself, and realized she rarely apologized for anything, or initiated anything emotional. The only reason our marriage worked at all, and was not a total disaster, was that I am male, and would only accept so much. She had no means to intimidate me directly, could not threaten me economically, or physically...so we had a truce of sorts. But she made sure I knew her love was conditional, and that if I didn't comply in some sense she would take the kids and abandon me (my biggest fear, not being loved, and she was well aware of it).marie....and, out of curiosity, do you believe you were the dominant or submissive partner in regards to the relationship you shared with the OW?snl...It was egalitarian as it should be. But the ow was willing to be submissive, it was what she had been taught all her life. Her husband has used that (and threats of abandonment) against her. So in practice I was dominant, but it was a benevolent dominance, I took care of her emotionally, gave her space to argue, disagree, but mostly she trusted me, she never had trusted anyone before. She was doing much better, starting to blossom, but as it inevitably had too, the world started crashing in. Now she is just scared to death of D, and is determined to just bury herself and her feelings and do whatever her husband wants, is very sad actually. In her marriage she is a shell of who she should be, due to neglect, and emotional abuse.marie...And, knowing what you've learned from reading the excerpt and/or the book, do you believe that your relationship with OW would have eventually changed along the course of time, as the book suggests?snl...well it did change, I left. There seem to be only two outcomes of unbalanced marriages, chronic depression, or affairs/divorce. I am a survivor, so I escaped. The counsellor told me prior to this, it was remarkable I had not become depressed long ago. Partly that is cause I am a pragmatic realist, I knew what I was getting into when I married my w, but I am also an incurable optimist, so I thought if I just loved her hard enough she would change. It was my bed, I made it, and I made the best of it for as long as I could. Finally I realized there was nothing I could do to fix this, it was hard to take, and I just gave up (about 7-8 years ago), and considered it kinda like a life sentence. Just doing my time, like the obedient Chrisitan I am.marie...And/or, do you believe that you could correct the current state of your marriage by each of you taking on the opposite role?snl..No it would not. Nor do I want that. But the realization of the power I have now has a seductive appeal to it, become a tyrant.....but I would hate myself, and I would never do that to my wife. I bear her no resentment, or illwill, and forgave her a long time ago, I just will not live like this the rest of my life.marie...Of course, this would require each of you to accept and be willing to abide by new "rules"...somewhat, in my opinion, similar to agreeing to meet each other's needs.snl...I think MB has the right rules, we will apply them as best we can, and then see. I have only one criteria, we find we both want to be married and are enthusiastic about it (ala poja). It is hard, cause I love the ow, and gave myself to her, I do not do such a thing lightly. Now I am lost in a confusing world of what is love, what is marriage, how does duty fit into this, how does one deal with feelings, it is a very lonely place. I don't understand all the effort to keep people married, just cause they are, and that how well you fit, or whether you want to be there or not is unimportant. I don't know how to live like that. Thx for your comments.

SNL- Thanks for your comments. May not agree with them at times but appreciate and relate to them. You appear to be a keen observer and thinker. I appreciate that you are sharing what you are actually thinking and feeling and from my experience, sometimes feelings are very difficult to argue with, even when you sense they are “wrong”. My wife and I are finally on the true road to recovery. We have reclaimed our love for each other now, and are finally having the marriage we both desperately wanted. I guess the difference this time is my focus has shifted to W and US instead of me, me, me. She is now starting to come around and doing the same.Our “conflict” remained unresolved for many years. It began largely through selfishness and our failure to recognise and understand each others needs, only our own. Instead, because our needs weren’t being met we both dug in and withdrew in frustration – the blame factor started to kick in and we got into a lifestyle of blaming each other for the situation.My EA was essentially all about ME. Not the other woman, who I thought was the love of my life, not my beautiful wife, who IS the love of my life and who I treated like crap - it was just me. In hindsight I see that I conditioned her into following my lead. Just as I believe I am doing now, however in a very positive way this time around.I too am a keen observer of life and probably think too much at times. My wife’s EA was the most significant and devastating event in my life so far, and on an emotional level makes my EA seem like a non event (to me). Because of it I have turned my inward thinking outwards and it’s starting to feel pretty good.My wife and I knew nothing about the Harley principles when I had my EA. I’m sure if she and I had followed them at the time, that she would never have been lured into her own EA. Just a footnote regarding advice. I know we are all quick to give it, even when it is not wanted, (and I have offered you some) but as a WS, I had to figure it out myself, see it, feel it, regardless of advice which only created more confusion. I know you are searching for your own answers SNL, and I hope you find them, unfortunately when we discover our own truths in our own way, it’s usually the hard way. I didn’t know it at the time, and even though I didn’t really want it at times, my guiding light has always been my wife’s love. Once again thanks for your comments.