There seems to have been some interest expressed recently in the um....... ethical status of an unrepentant WS. The implication that such individuals have few redeeming values, are completely untrustworthy, have nothing of benefit to offer the MB effort, and have no idea who they are, or what they want, but are in a perpetual fog and just in serious need of being cured.<P>I suppose all that could be true, but I have to make note of a couple things.<P>1. Most (if not all) psychologists recognize anyone can be a ws under the right circumstances. That suggests ws are no different than the bs.<P>2. Affairs themselves although regretable in many ways, are fundamentally the same as any other relationship, 2 human beings have chosen each other. These choosing run the same range as any other choosings, from selfish, self-serving using someone.....to fully committed loving (would marry) relationships. There is the issue of so-called promises and honesty, but even a cursory investigation of human relationships would reveal these are highly complex issues and not the simlistic concepts those who tout them wish they were. I suspect most if not all bs have broken plenty of their "vows"...but somehow the fidelity vow is "special"...ain't so. Emotional abuse, neglect, control, anger (the religion proponents should read what the Bible says about anger, and angry spouses) etc. are huge vow failures, but somehow the guilty are "excused" with a slap on the wrist....maybe we should tatoo the forehead of controllers too?<P>3. Feelings are ...well.... feelings. Neither right or wrong, they just are. So loving another person in itself is not wrong, it just is an emotional reality. Now what you do about it is a whole nother issue, but the feeling cannot, should not be denied....isn't denial considered unhealthy?<P>4. WS are not all lowlifes running around trying to torture their spouses. They are people with issues too, trying to survive, hurting, lonely, scared also. But that does not mean they are all untrustworthy, lie about everything, plot malicious ways to injure their spouses, etc. anymore than bs are schemeing monsters trying to hogtie their ws and make them love em whether it kills em or not.<P>5. WS come in many flavors too, some have an A, reevaluate their life, and realize they made a huge error, and seek reconcilliation with very little fog/withdrawal. Some are serial affair people, with personality disorders that will never stop. Some are conflict avoiders and never really gave their spouse a chance to problem solve. Some have tried all they intend to, are in kind of a vulnerable limbo (emotionally divorce) and accidently start a relationship with someone else....come to realize it is ill-advised, but still have no desire to remain married, or even become more sure they don't want to be married. Some WS are seduced by manipulative predators, and become emotionally damaged and confused about who they are and what they want. Some fall legitimately in love with someone they would marry if they could, but ethics and morality interfere and the future becomes uncertain...they may just leave and be single, they may reevaluate their life and form a "contract" marriage with a spouse who cleans up their act, some will enter a goodfaith effort to reconcille and find their changed spouse is someone they can love. Some probably just kill themselves, in short....there is no one size fits all.<P>In my case I was married 23 years, I did make significant efforts to get my wifes attention, there were serious interpersonal issues, and I in fact do not like who my wife was, nor want in any shape or form the marriage I had. I cannot speak for her, she has her own feelings, but those are mine. I did not act capriciously, I was done with the marriage, it was not if we would be divorced anymore, it was when. Not being very knowledgeable I made a serious judgement error, I allowed myself to fall in love with someone before I actually got divorced. I had no idea how much trouble this would be for everyone concerned. Now I do, I would not do it the same. My behaviour generated consequences, I am now tainted goods, my integrity in temporary if not permanent disarray. My wife and family suffered various emotional traumas which I must now have on my conscience, I had to accept that someone I love cannot be available to me under these circumstances, as well as take responsibility for the emotional trauma the ow and her family are experiencing. I am not a sociopath, this stuff does distress me. In addition I must now make a good faith effort to reconcille with my wife, open up wounds long since scarred over, and I have little desire to reopen. <P>I am doing this, and being as honest as I can which means revealing my feelings. This is complicated stuff, I wish it were as simple as just throwing a switch in my brain and then feeling all the right stuff. I do worry about something being wrong with me, that my wife may be better off if I get run over by a truck. But none of this means I am repentant. None of this means ...Oh, it was wrong, Josephs feelings don't count, he isn't allowed to love another, he is owned by his wife....yada yada yada. My feelings do count, I am sorry they distress my wife, but they do count, all I can do is try to understand myself, be willing to submit to behaviour modification (aka MB), and see what happens. The fact is I left my marriage, I fell in love with someone, the feelings are real, and I don't regret being capable of loving, or being loved for me. Whether it was real or not, or just fog, maybe I was just used by the ow, maybe I just used her, there is no way to know....only time will reveal those answers.<P>Along the way I have figured out a few things. <P>1. You cannot just walk away from a marriage. That means the consequences for an ethical person are too great to do that if your spouse objects and makes a good faith effort to find out what went wrong.<P>2. That you cannot maintain 2 relationships, the division of attention just means both will fail....and will reveal you for being dysfunctionaly selfish.<P>3. That you must have no contact (in the sense you let the other relationship permanently go), this does not mean necessarily you have to pretend the op does not exist, pretend you hate or don't care about them, you can (and should) have the same feelings for them you would for anyone you care about....you just can't interact with them as a SO while trying to reconcille.<P>4. That your feelings do vary with contact with op in ways you have little control over, no matter how much you think you do.<P>5. That to be fair, you have to lower the emotional barriers you have constructed to your spouse, and let them in, no matter how scarey that is.<P>6. That this is not going to be resolved in a few weeks, or months, it is gonna take awhile, and you must be committed to taking the time.<P>7. That radical honesty is pretty much essential to the process (although recognizing no one is perfectly honest), that you must let your spouse be aware of anything sigificant......this is harder than it sounds. Not to do necessarily, but to realize when you aren't doing it.<P>8. That the ws must be willing to let the bs have total access to their communication assets, and account for all their time and money, the bs needs this to balance the violation of trust, so they can focus on the changes they need to make, instead of going crazy worrying about you. This means plan a/b have time limits, nothing is gonna be resolved until extraordinary precautions are put in place.<P>I could ramble forever, but the point is, we are people too, our feelings count, and our honesty should not be met with abuse....otherwise why should we trust YOU.<P>If anyone has issues with me, or any other WS, this thread is the place for it, I can't speak for others, but I will answer as honestly as I can. I don't expect to be validated or condoned. I just know everything I thought about marriage, bonding, vows, promises, trust, feelings and so forth is not as simple as I thought it was, so I am kinda lost, but I am trying to do the right thing, but I am not going to let anyone "tell" me what that is...it has to be proven, and it has to be proven by sound psychological principles. I don't think that is unreasonable. I can see no reason at all to be married to my wife if I don't love her passionately ("in-love"), I do have obligations, but every single one of them can be met as an X. There is no reason whatsoever to live intimately with someone unless you love em like crazy. Duty, vows, sacrifice, none of that counts for a thing.......is their anyone here who wants a spouse to remain married to you if they do not love you? And is their anyone who would rather their spouse lie to them about that, then tell em the truth?

Hi SnL,<P>In paragraph #2, you mentioned the statement regarding Forehead Tatooing. In my post on the original thread I had said people that were "DIVORCED" who had cheated should have that tatooed on their forehead. It was more of a vent than anything else. <P>What this did imply is that as a single/divorced person, I would very much like to know before hand if I'm about to involve myself with someone that is Divorced because they had been unfaithful in their marriage. <P>Yes, I was married to a serial cheater and I'm sure I have a tude regarding never wanting to be involved with someone who may cheat again. I have issues and I know it. I'm working my way thru them, and some of it I'm doing here.<P>My "Tatoo" post was not intended to offend anyone, especially you. I apologize if I did. Please forgive me.<P>Jo<P>

Wow, sad...<BR>this post is loaded with information and i hope more bs and ws read it.<BR>What I didn't quite get was: are you in love with your wife Are you planning to remain married?<P>I am currently bs (fiance). However, previously I spent 6 years with an alcoholic/bad temper, the last 3 of those years were celibate (his choice, not mine).<P>In those 3 years, I never cheated...at one point, I was quite pround of this. I got together with my current bf 8 weeks before permanently ending the previous relationship. We've been friends 7 years, together 2 years. <P>In hindsight, I now realize that my ex's personality and life presented me with something I simply could not handle: temper, anger, alcohol, unable to be physically affectionate, disregardful of his health, disliked people, nasty to his mother.<P>Sorry, rambling a bit. I guess I realize that bs and ws are probably very similar...anyone can be either, given the right factors.<P>What will you do now?<BR>

No one can be either, in theory perhaps, but not if they are committed to their spouse. If the temptation is put there in front of you , you have to be a strong enough person to walk away and back to what is important, your marriage. That is why we take the vows that we take, if we did not want to be in a committed relationship we would not have married, we would have stayed single, each spouse chose to be married they were not forced and by choosing marriage both chose to be committed for life, that is why the vows were spoken. If one spouse is tempted they should go and speak with the other and work together so that there would be no need to act on the temptation.<P>That is my two cents worth, for what it is.

snl,<P> Well, let me say that I enjoy reading your posts. The points of view are priceless IMO. It gives ALL BS the chance to see the other side. Something our own WS may not communicate well. I agree with much you have to say, up to a point.<P> Every thing doesn't have to be analyzed with the engineer mindset. Like a piece of equipment on the production line. But if you or any WS is gonna take a marriage(BS) apart and see what makes it tick, all I would ask the WS is to do the same with the OP. I would wager that not many people could stand up to that kind of scrutiny.<P> Speaking only for myself, I can understand how ANY person could have an A. My BIG issue, and that of a lot of us, is the fact that if things were so bad at home then why not leave the marriage? Before you went out and screwed around? If things were so unbearable at home get the damn divorce.<P> Then the lies are so hard to take on top of the A. Why not simply be honest. And don't change history. You say that BS make WS out to be some sort of evil person. What is the WS trying to do when they tell these lies AND change something to fit what they want it to be to justify their actions?<P> I've been with my wife for 22 years counting the time we dated, 19 of them married. My wife tells me she never knew what love was??? What the heck is that? Oh there is tons more but you get the point. <P> Like I said I enjoy reading your posts and you make a lot of sense sometimes. It is nice to read that you have real guilt feelings about what you did. Maybe not about the A, but about having it while still with your W.<P> jd

Hey res, not to worry, this wasn't a vent, I hardly ever vent, I was just advocating. Actually I am a proponent of forehead tatooing (so to speak). I have had heated discussions re privacy issues a number of times (with the availability of computers to compile and track us, DNA, testing, polygraph technology etc. etc.). Personally, in theory, I'd like to see privacy completely eliminated, each of us an open book, would eliminate so much of the evil that thrives in the dark. Of course the main problem is that others (govt. insurance companies, employers, etc.) would use this to our disadvantage....but it would be very helpful in personal interactions. IMO a fair amount of our misbehaviour as human beings is a lack of peer pressure, or significant consequences. If we went back to Biblical times affairs could pretty well be eliminated, you just execute the perpetrators. I am pretty sure I could have stopped if the consequence was me and ow being executed. But that is probably not a good idea, however having almost no consequences is not good either. I am actually in favor of alienation of affection laws, I deserve to be sued, and had this been part of the enviroment, may very well have stopped much sooner and resolved marriage first. But there are many other issues too, far too little support for abused spouses for example, far too little psychological training for us all....marriage far to easy to enter....there is much we can do to eliminate the needless suffering that is caused by people seeking a bond elsewhere than their marriage.

It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is..........<P>I hate to burst your bubble but there are actually people out there who know right from wrong and have the self control and maturity to abide by thier standards and overcome thier little "feelings." We all have bad feelings sometimes, the only difference is that some people act on them and some people don't. It's called MATURITY. This is what seperates the men from the boys.<P>And I seriously doubt - or care - if "most" psychologists agree that "anyone can be a ws under the right circumstances." The premise behind this theory is that bad behavior is just something that randomly "happens" to people and has nothing to do with thier character. Nonsense. That might you feel better but it simply is not true and doesn't pass the laugh test.<P>I have had several opportunities to have affairs and have even had "feelings" for other men in my lifetime. However, I did not for one simple reason: IT IS WRONG. Many, many people do not have affairs for the very same reason: IT <BR>IS WRONG. My commitment to my family means much more than my "feelings." So please don't try and convince me that there is a moral equivalence between adulterers and non adulterers - there ain't. Behavior is a result of one's CHARACTER, whether you want to realize it or not. You can pretend that all bad behavior is some random thing that just "happens" to people, but that is a cop out.<P>And to say that there is moral equivalence between adultery and something like, anger [which all married people experience at one time or another] is a major leap and just doesn't work. Further, adultery is a moral issue,[not just another "type" of relationship] anger is not. Adultery is SO damaging to one's family that it is the ONE justifiable reason for divorce in the Christian religion - the other vows are not.<P>Lastly, if you see nothing wrong with adultery and are not repentent, what's the problem here? Why all the tortured justifications, explanations, logical gymnastics, etc? You don't need our approval. <P>

You know, I was talking to a friend tonight and I realized something, probably for the first time since my affair. I am truly, TRULY embarrassed by the fact that I had it. I'm not talking about the kind of embarrassed that makes me turn red, I'm talking about the kind that makes me want to hide under a rock.<P>Further, I am to the point that I honestly don't give a crap what happens to the OM. I haven't seen him in ten months, and I hope to never see him again in my life. <P>He was the worst thing I've ever allowed into my life, not because he was abusive, or a bad man, or a cad, but because I allowed him in, when I should have been listening to my soul, and abided by my character, which had never given in to "feelings" before that. For eighteen years, even when my (then)H cheated, I did not. Then, I did. I still can't believe it. I can't believe that was ME. What in the hell was I thinking? Or maybe, I should say, clearly, I **wasn't** thinking.<P>I have never been more horrified than I am at this moment by what I did. <P>It changed my life forever. I can NEVER take it back. I can go forward, try to be a good person, try to show my friends and family that I'm not a scummy whore (and I'm not!)... but it's just damn sad that I have to do it at all.<P>All because of feelings.<P>Now, isn't that sad?

robyn, what I am doing now is making myself available (both in person, and emotionally) to a reconcilliation effort based on MB principles, including MB counselling with Jennifer, at my wifes request. That doesn't mean I am unwilling, after all the dust had settled, and a great deal of introspection, as well as conversation with ow, I (and she) came to understand there is no other ethical course of action. Actually the ow is even more adamant, that one cannot just leave cause not in-love (one just does duty forever). We differ on that, I don't think one should remain married unless they are in-love, my wife is aware of this too. Further, I do not think love is a decision, but neither is it a feeling only.... it is both. Which means as hard as one may try, it is entirely possible, to not love your spouse.....divorce does not have to happen, folks can enter a sort of business arrangement, agreeing to meet each others needs, but it is not love. Humans are capable of a different kind of bonding, a deeper can't imagine life without you bond, that is what I would define love as. IMO a simple test is one of looking at your spouse, and imagining them gone....if it does not evoke any particularly strong sense of loss, you are not in love. Caring for someone is not passionate intimate love, and IMO that is what marriage is about.<P>jd...Every thing doesn't have to be analyzed with the engineer mindset. Like a piece of equipment on the production line. But if you or any WS is gonna take a marriage(BS) apart and see what makes it tick, all I would ask the WS is to do the same with the OP. I would wager that not many people could stand up to that kind of scrutiny.<P>snl...I agree, and I looked at the ow HARD, all the time. I am an analytical type temperament, and while I may have some fog issues with my emotions, I am not a fool. It is customary for the bs to trash all op as schemeing, manipulative, lowlifes....but such is not necessarily the case. They may be a good person, who fits you well, and is also in an emotionally barren marriage, this is when it gets real tough to just walk away from.<P>jd...Speaking only for myself, I can understand how ANY person could have an A. My BIG issue, and that of a lot of us, is the fact that if things were so bad at home then why not leave the marriage? <P>snl...What I am not so sure bs undestand, is that when you become a ws you have left the marriage, you have divorced, if you truly bond with another (as opposed to the narcissistic adulterers). The ws typically emotionally withdraws, stops sexual activity, no longer treats spouse as a spouse, but more as a roomate, and one they don't get along well with at that. They typically expect the bs to agree to a divorce NOW, so the timing is a little off, but they do leave. The problem is the stubborn BS won't let em go peacefully, then all H*** breaks loose. IMO when this kind of affair occurs, the marriage is indeed over, and reconcilliation means one will remarry. That means the bs has now become a compeitor, and must use dating strategies, is not fair, but is the psychological reality, and is a bitter pill for the bs to swallow. But those who do, have (IMO) a greater chance of recovery.<P>The thing the bs doesn't get is that it was so bad, and they did leave, they just didn't say goodbye. The bs then sometimes (in the shock) gets stuck at this point, goes into melt-down and adds colateral damage to the trainwreck. In many ways I suspect psychologically an affair is much like a car accident, or a routine trip to the doctor and finding it is a terminal cancer, not indigestion. There is great need for decisive, effective, immediate action, but you are in shock, and paralyzed....those who can recover quicker, do useful stuff (stop the bleeding, get the stomach surgury NOW, etc. etc.) have a greater survival rate. There is absolutely no benefit to gnashing of teeth, guilting the spouse, wringing of hands....THE DEED IS DONE, you need to take effective, immediate, action NOW. <P>jd...Then the lies are so hard to take on top of the A. Why not simply be honest. And don't change history. You say that BS make WS out to be some sort of evil person. What is the WS trying to do when they tell these lies AND change something to fit what they want it to be to justify their actions?<P>snl....I engaged in very little revision. I had already endured years of disillusionment, failed counselling, etc. so maybe I am a small percentage of ws. But I did focus on the negatives more (I think that is kinda inevitable, not really that hard to understand, comes with the territory). And I did say some pretty awful things to w when she was pressuring me with guilt type stuff. I did so because you become an animal, you are reacting instinctively, emotional defense, life and death. It is extremely detrimental, and downright dangerous to confront a ws this way. The emotional volatility is off the scale, you go nuts. I am a calm, nice, non-violent person, I went nuts more than once, scared the hell out of my wife, scared the hell out of me, totally lost control, hurt her twice (in the struggles which come with the intensity), it is awful. If a bs could get in the mind of a ws under these circumstance you would no longer wonder why you are not supposed to confront us. When the harleys talk about no LB, this isn't just some dry psychological theory, this is serious stuff. You will absolutely NEVER get anywhere reasoning with us. WE DON'T CARE, we are past caring, we are only reacting. Leave us be, if guilt is gonna work you don't have to do anything but wait, we will do it to ourselves. But when you come at us, demanding we feel guilty, you are playing with dynamite.<P>jd...I've been with my wife for 22 years counting the time we dated, 19 of them married. My wife tells me she never knew what love was??? What the heck is that? Oh there is tons more but you get the point.<P>snl...And therein lies the tale. You must not take offense at that, you must get her to talk, and if you listen, you will find your answers between her words, but bs have a hard time listening. The funny (not haha) thing is most ws will tell you all you need to know, but few of the bs can tolerate hearing about the op. If you could somehow take on the appearance of a trusted non-judgemental friend, your ws will tell you everything you need to know. Sheer torture I know. I regularly tried to pour out my heart to my w about the ow, my feelings, my travails, my fears.....she did not listen, made her angry, and I just kept on talking with ow, she understood, she cared, she listened, she did not judge. Finally 5 months after D, circumstances finally brought things to a head, but if ow had not been so adamant about not breaking up my marriage (or hers) until we tried to fix them, I may very well have left w without trying. You bs do what you will, be secure in your rights and your morality, and your ethics, but those strategies might not serve you very well. Not saying sometimes confrontation doesn't work, but I suspect more often than not it just drives your ws away. <P>jd...It is nice to read that you have real guilt feelings about what you did. Maybe not about the A, but about having it while still with your W.<P>snl....ws are not insensitive louts (most of the time), I suspect few ws (even the serial ones) really don't care. It is just that I think human beings inherently know you cannot base relationships on guilt, so act in their own self-interest. That is why you don't guilt your ws back, you woo em back. And yes, I don't regret the affair, but I do regret the distress, and I will never have another. I will keep my relationship up to speed, or leave. But the problem in large part is kids, young children greatly skew this whole issue, causing both bs and ws to do things differently. If we did not have 4 kids, we would have fixed the marriage or divorced long ago. For me, divorce was never an option, no matter how miserable I was, but now I wonder, what would have happened had I met the ow earlier in life.<P>

OMG<BR>I'm practically speachless. Thank you for opening up to us. Your input has helped me. But if you want your marriage to work, and I think you do or you wouldn't be here, please please show her affection. Let her know she is special to you. There was someone here who used to say if you just do it, it will come. You try, then she may respond, simple as that.<P>I've been very tempted this past weekend with a man I am attracted to. Please hold your w. The old feelings may come out. only my ws would even sleep in the same bed with me it would make such a difference. <P>I have no idea how this post will appear. I have aol and I type things and then they disapear. <P>What I am trying to say is that I admire your willingness to figure out what happened, but I think that you have to figure out where you want to go and the fact that you are here seems to me that you want your marriage, so get off the computerand go hold your wife.<P>sleep tight!<BR>bye.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B><BR>It changed my life forever. I can NEVER take it back. I can go forward, try to be a good person, try to show my friends and family that I'm not a scummy whore (and I'm not!)... but it's just damn sad that I have to do it at all.<P>All because of feelings.<P>Now, isn't that sad?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that true character is not in being "perfect" [because none of us are] but how we handle our shortcomings afterward. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dana114:<BR><B> I think that true character is not in being "perfect" [because none of us are] but how we handle our shortcomings afterward. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have no idea what your kind words mean to me tonight.<P>I've been here, at this site, for two years. I can't believe that this "hit me" tonight, but I promise, it did, and it hit squarly between the eyes.<P>I've made so many mistakes in my life, and yet, I am still blessed...<P>I think I am finally beginning to realize the depth of those blessings.<P>Thank you, again. <P>

A Toast to you Dana!!<P>I agree with you 100%. My H has been trying to persuade everyone about that type of "crap" for the last 5 months---oops, let me correct that--at least the last 10 years.<P>I am so sick of listening to it. Adultery is wrong. There is no justification for it. It just shows a lack of moral conviction. The lies, the deceit, the justifications from a person having an affair---send ripples of devastation through the spouse, the kids, the relatives, the friends--and it goes on and on. It is just complete selfishness. <P>I keep reading the excuses and the rationales the ws spews forth....I think I see someone having a hard time with their own conscience. NO ONE should have that right to inflict that kind of pain on their spouse. What a cowardly act.<P>If the marriage was so intollerable, honesty, communication, counseling, marriage seminars---all would have been a better alternative than having an affair. If you are that unsatisfied with your marriage---GET HELP. I am sick of hearing the bullsh**! If you are not committed to your marriage and are so unhappy that you don't want to try anymore--than get a divorce--then look for another relationship. Better go...I am venting.

dana...I hear you, and understand your point of view, there is no way to prove the psychologists right or wrong with certainty. Nor is there any point in debateing this issue. I happen to agree with the psychologists, but then I am biased, so that means nothing. A few months before the affair I was in a discussion about adultery on a religion debate board. I made many of the same comments you just did (plus existed in a barren marriage for many many years with nary a glance at ow), and ended with saying I would rather die than committ adultery. They say God moves in mysterious ways, and pride always goeth before the fall....are you being prideful dana?<P>as for your theological observations, there is much room for discussion re those issues, but not now (I have done some here in the past)....the Bible has much to say about anger, and it is a very serious issue, one you can indeed leave a spouse over (as in send them away, one can debate whether that means divorce or not). Further you imply (as is common) that one sin is better than another, they are all the same. Adultery is no better or worse than any other marital sin, and it can be argued that the mention of adultery is symbolic of any kind of marital desertion. If not, there is no basis for divorcing a husband who beats you everyday, do you feel a woman in such a marriage must remain married forever to this man? Would you? However, for the record, while I had a PA, there was no intercourse, it was a boundary we set....and kept. Biblically speaking, I think intercourse is necessary before one gets their forehead tatooed with a scarlet A.

snl,<P>A have a few comments in response to your thread.<P>Unlike many BS's, I do believe anyone is capable of having an A. I am no more ethical or moral than my W. My character is no greater. If I was truly as unhappy as my W and the situation and opportunity were reversed, who knows what I may have done? However, the big difference between my W and I is that I would have confided in her (or a close friend, family member or counselor) about my unhappiness, not an opposite-sex acquantance from work. <P>Also, I know that "control" is a big issue for you. I am/was the controlling partner in my marriage, as is/was your W. However, for there to be a "controller", there has to be a "controllee", someone who allows their spouse to have control. I think you and my W need to take your share of the responsibility for that, just as your W and I should. <P>I've taken responsibilty for my past behavior that contributed to our problems, namely angry outbursts, criticism and being a controller. So far my W has not. Everyting is my fault. Maybe if/when her A ends and she is seeing things more clearly, she'll be able to look at the whole picture and she'll see that we're both to blame for the state of our marriage prior to her A. If and when that happens, I believe we can open up lines of communication we've never had. <P>I am not one of those BS's that sits around and wonders how could my W do this. It happened and I only hope we can get past it and give our marriage a real chance. If that happens, I'll focus on the problems in our marriage, not the A. The A is a byproduct of our problems, not the cause of them. If my W ever decides to reconcile, I'll focus my time, effort and energy on rebuilding our marriage, not her A. I won't hold it over her head, but let it serve as a constant reminder of how I lost sight of what's really important, my marriage and my family.<P>sad dad

sad (and other interested parties)....this controlling issue is complicated, it ranges from abusive behaviour )physical/mental intimidation), to your garden variety aner, disrespect etc. It is not easy to deal with, I argued with my wife a lot, did little good. She was willing to be angry longer and harder than me, I wanted some semblance of harmony, so I shut up...... and withdrew. I doubt this could be altered, maybe similar in your family. There is no doubt in my mind that the incidence of marital disharmony (and especially controlling behaviour) is directly related to the perception other spouse will not leave marriage. My w KNEW I hated the idea of divorce, she used that against me. My A was a shock to her (as it always is to a controller when we escape), without it, I doubt I would ever have got her attention..... Now what to do, often (and is true for me) the ws gets a view of emotional freedom, and it feels really really good. You had no idea how starved you had become, how mal-nourished, and you are absolutely determined not to go back...that is what you must deal with....convincing your w you will never treat her like that again. Not cause you are a bad person, but because you are who you are, and she does not want that. I have been adamant, and steadfast, I did not like my wife, and I will not stay unless she makes fundamental changes, I will not give up my emotional survival. It is too complex to discuss all the psychology between me and my wife. I don't expect her to become a slave to me or anything. It is just our life must be different, and she must convince me, she loves me, not just needs me, as I should convince her too. It is politically correct to say each partner is 50/50, no one is perfect, blah blah blah. True, I am not, I know what her needs are, and I don't meet em cause I don't want too. I am meeting a few more now cause she has made no demands to do so, has done very little critizing (her main LB), has stopped controlling. I am not doing so cause I decided to do so, I just kinda want to, that is how it works. I will be lambasted for saying this, but the problem in our marriage is not me, it was her choice of marital coping, she was in charge, and the one who is in charge is the one who is at fault, comes with the territory. Now we do have legitimate temperament, and behavioural differences, that should we reconcile must be worked out, but first, the power issues have to be resolved, maybe so for you too. Below is a link to amazon for a book which explains far better than I the control/controllee dance that exists in every marriage...they call it dominance/submission...every marriage is a balance of these traits, and an imbalance leads to marital breakdown. It is actually a psychological text and of immense value in understanding this stuff, I suggest you (and your wife) read it.<P> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060923091/qid=998543000/sr=8-1/107-0737265-6115742" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060923091/qid=998543000/sr=8-1/107-0737265-6 115742</A> <P>Here is a link to an excerpt<BR> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0060923091/excerpt/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_3/107-0737265-6115742" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0060923091/excerpt/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_3/107-0737265-6115742</A> <p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 23, 2001).]

SnL,<BR>I don't usually get over here, but I'm glad I did tonight as your post is fasinating and I'd like to bounce some stuff off of you and a few others here.<P>1. "anyone could be a WS" I do agree with this now (at the ripe old age of 45) but would have voiced quite an argument before..hmmm about age 30/35...wonder if that difference of opinion is due to having observed humans for an extra 10-15 years. Just a thought.<P>2."controllers"- in some ways, I wonder if the WS's A is the way they "take back" some type of control in their lives..maybe the loss of that control isn't just marriage related, but also career or financially related.<P>3.Feelings- I agree that feelings are pure..neither right or wrong...we get screwed up when we act on them. I also think that feelings are probably the one thing that are concealed consistantly..no one wants to be wrong, hurt, ridiculed ect and who better to do that sort of damage then the one's we choose to love? So, it's almost a human trait to be dishonest about our feelings rather than injure or risk injury. The hardest part of recovery, for me, is to risk revealing my feelings to the one who has betrayed me. I agree that WS do not lie about everything, but as a BS who was blindsided by his A, I now have problems trusting my own judgement. How do I know what is a lie and isn't? I would imagine it is as difficult for him to reveal feelings to me knowing that his dishonesty has now been revealed, and he is, as you say, tainted. So the MB rules do help create a safety net. Which leads to next subject that I will simply group under..<P>4. Strategies- your conversation with jd really made me think about our Dday, Plan A, Plan B, LB's, recovery rules, but this time through his(WS) eyes and I wonder what WS is really thinking. (At the risk of pirating your post- a short history) Together 14 years, relationship lost a lot of satisfaction for both of us about 3 years ago, his A started ~ 2 years ago, Dday 12/00, Plan A~ 2 mos, Plan B ~3 weeks, then Plan A since (in the sense that I just think that's a neat way to treat the one you love), then recovery started 4/01. Generally, both of us are pretty happy with the changes that have happened since recovery started. <BR>I guess my queston is how a WS feels during that whole thing. The only thing he ever really said about all of this is that he's glad something woke us up and made us start taking care of each other again. I think it's kind of interesting that initially he said that essentially we weren't meeting each others needs, but after 4-5 months that has changed to "I was just plain stupid and had been taking you for granted". So this "shifting of blame" is sort of interesting and I was just wondering what you all would make of it. <P>Thanks for your time,<BR>T<P><BR>

Dear Sad_n_Lonely,<P>I wonder what your handle would be if you did not take over your BS's screen name and invented your own name instead????<P>Interestingly, you don't seem very sad nor lonely to me and you never did, so I find it very difficult to have sympathy for you in that regard...<P>Ever since you came here, you have made it clear that you do not enjoy living with your wife and have not enjoyed her for years and yet you have not left home while you continue in your affair. I'm not sure what the status really is with your marriage, because frankly, I often get lost in your verboseness...<P>I'm just wondering if you have discovered the understanding you sought after when you claimed to be seeking answers of your own at this site?<P>OR are you just trying to give WS perspectives. It's difficult for me to trust your opinions because it seems to me like you are sort of taking advantage of so many confused BS's?<P>BS's are not getting answers from their WS's and you are very willing to ramble on and on with your endless thoughts, but you yourself have admitted that you are confused. Why should MBers listen to anything you have to say?<P>I hate to be the one to say this to you because I have always had a soft spot for you & your wife's situation, but are you making any progress toward rebuilding or are you just defending your position? Are you going to remain the "WS spokesperson" or are you going to repent before God and get busy about letting God restore some intimacy to your marriage?<P>Just wondering. Please, don't think I'm judging you because I am not. Remember, I have a grown OC from an A with a MM. I am in no position to judge anyone as I would also be one of the ones with a scarlet A imbedded in my forehead and standing in the execution line... NEXT!

snl - as usual, I read all your posts and I find good information in them.<P>Sim ilarly, the editorial page in the newspaper is my favorite section - not because I get reassurance reading common opinions, but because I can read different points of view and understand opposing arguments.<P>I appreciate that you are willing to reveal your thoughts and opinions. As you know, I don't agree with everything you say.<P>I won't refute each detail of your's that differs from my view, but just let me say this: Replace adultery or infidelity as your topic, with murder. Seems you can justify that, as well.<P>Please keep posting. It's important to us all and, I think, especially to you.<P>WAT

snl,<P>Getting back to the control issue. My W and I seldom argued, maybe half a dozen real arguments in 5 years of marriage. We probably should have argued more, it is a healthy way for two people to express their feelings and opinions, unless one person continues the argument until the other gives in. That should have been a sign that something was wrong. Two people can't live together day in and day out for years without differences of opinion, thoughts, feelings, etc. However, if my W had something to say or feelings to express, it is up to her to let me know. I won't take responsibility for taking that choice away from her. If she chooses to give up to avoid a possible conflict, that's her choice. <P>When my W told me last November how unhappy she was and the reasons for her unhappiness, I asked her why she didn't say something earlier. Her reply was that she didn't want to upset our family and didn't think she could talk to me about it. But when she did talk to me about it, she was calm and rational and never made me feel under attack. I listened to what she said, understood her reasons for being unhappy and accepted my role in her unhappiness. I never got defensive or told her she was wrong. It was a very good talk and a real eye-opener.<P>The facts of the matter are this:<P>she could and did talk to me about it, but put it off until much more damage was done<P>although she didn't want to upset our family, she is having an A and we're on the verge of D <P>I will take the blame for being difficult to talk to or to get through to sometimes, but being "difficult" is not an excuse for her confiding in another man about the problems in our marriage, and that's how this whole mess started.<BR>She could have turned to a friend or family member or written me a letter to express her feelings, but she didn't. <P>It's better to face a conflict (some how, some way as difficult as that may be), than avoid it. <P>sad dad