Poll for BS's in recovery - Marriage Builders® Forums

I'm in a bit of a mood tonight (again! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ), so I'll pull a Scarlett O'Hara and deal with it tomorrow ( [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ). Here's my question:If your WS were to have another A, and knowing what you now know, would you still aim for recovery?I don't think I would. I've been put through so much already, numerous times with my H, that I just wouldn't have the drive to do it all again. Thanks to MB, I now KNOW how strong I am, and that I would do just fine on my own.Karen

I have two words for that...Tough Love.Plan B.Hasta buddy.Bye Bye.See Ya.Hugs,
Cali

Hmmm, I don't think so...not so much from what I learned..but from what he did. If infidelity is still an option...he didn't learn much.
t

Hi Topie,You encouraged me a bit last year when I was going thru stuff - I'm now posting in another name as my WH found out who I was. So thanx.
i just realised you got married 2 weeks after me and separated from your WH a month before me - yet you seem so much more in the know about giving advice than I do - I'm still asking the questions!Anyhow, your question...As much as this sounds crazy, yes, I'd still pray for his return - not that I'd tell him that. At the moment (I say at the moment as I know my opinions may change on this) I believe I made a lifetime committment, no matter what H's actions are - but definately plan B with it. But I completely understand your feelings on it.I have friends who are working thru this right now and are doing really well - its been 10 months. He had an affair years ago, was found out, they dealt with it, moved on together...then last year she found out he'd done it again. She is coping really well with it.AH

Hmmm....probably wouldn't give him another chance.I can't say definitely, because geez...I used to say what I absolutely WOULD do if faced with alot of situations...only to have it bite me in the behind repeatedly.BUT - We've been through MB now, and learned soooooo much about marriage, and about affairs, and all this stuff....So if he did it again...he'd be doing it with full knowledge of exactly what kind of hurt he'd be causing me. It would also indicate to me, after all this work on rebuilding trust, that there was no way to trust him.I'd be inclined to say that I'd be right to Plan B/D. Frankly, I'd rather be alone that live through the pain of an affair, AND the pain of recovery. (Yep for those of you not in recovery yet....you thought the affair was bad...recovery is worse).

Goodness... If I could accept my husband as a husband NOW and he did it again, after all we've been through... There has to be a harsher word for that than "doormat". Snow

Cali: I love seeing how strong you've become in the last couple of months. Hats off to you! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Twyla: Ain't that the truth! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] AH: You're welcome, I'm glad I could help you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] If you were married 2 weeks before me, then you have the same wedding day as my penpal of 19 yrs in England. Cool!!BR: Recovery sure is harder than plan A/B time, that's for sure! For me, the hardest part was the actual true realization that the A was not the issue to be dealt with, but everything else was! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Snowwhite: hehehe. I thought you might come up with something witty like that. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Karen

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
he'd be doing it with full knowledge of exactly what kind of hurt he'd be causing me. It would also indicate to me, after all this work on rebuilding trust, that there was no way to trust him.
<hr></blockquote>This is why I'm having such a hard time. My H didn't just stumble into unfamiliar territory with ignorance of the consequences. He LIVED being a BS himself before meeting and marrying me, PLUS he knows everything I went through as a BS in my previous M, too.Since my H is not fully cooperative, I don't even consider myself in recovery this time yet, but I think the "next time" for me wouldn't have to be another A. If this refusal to deal with the current situation appropriately continues, I will eventually give up.And if there ever comes a time when any of the previous A symptoms exhibit themselves, I won't even wait for proof. Just the smell or suggestion of it will be enough for me. It almost was this time around.When he left in Sept., I still didn't have proof, but I knew that he was either having an A or trying to make me think he was having an A, so either way, cruelty beyond belief considering the BS history we both have, so it was enough for me to go to the attorney immediately. If he hadn't contacted me 6 days later with a confession and request to move back in along with his infamous promise to do "anything" to rebuild the M, we would be receiving the final D decree shortly.The only reason I gave him a chance was because he confessed and apologized and seemed genuinely remorseful at that time. My ex-H to this day hasn't acknowledged his A despite all the evidence and witnesses, much less apologized for ANYTHING he ever did to me.I won't do CPR next time, I'll just pronounce the M dead and pull the plug.

Hi there all,At 1.5 years from d-day #1 (almost to the day) and more than 17 months of recovery, there are days when I am still not sure I am now aiming for recovery. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] If my H were to have another A, I would most definitely NOT aim for recovery. I would ask him to leave immediately; and if he did not, I would get movers in to pack his stuff, get a locksmith to change the locks on the doors, get a divorce petition drafted and filed, and send it all to him wherever he might be, along with a separation agreement with a 'sign here' flag.But, hey, that's just me.

br...So if he did it again...he'd be doing it with full knowledge of exactly what kind of hurt he'd be causing me. It would also indicate to me, after all this work on rebuilding trust, that there was no way to trust him.snl...Not to downplay any hurt hurts, but that is not really the point IMO, and affairs aren't about the bs (or their hurt) anyways usually. It is the trust issue that is key IMO... the successful intimate human relationship we call marriage has a foundation built on trust, without it love cannot exist, and without love, intimacy does not exist....only accomodation/settleing are possible.Because human relationships are poorly understood by most of us when we marry, it is safe to say we are all pretty vulnerable to an affair if a marriage is not working (and studies seem to support that)...but once a part of an affair (ws or bs) and become educated (although many don't and sweep it under the rug, go into denial, insuring the marriage will never work, know people who have lived decades being faithful but marriage remains dead) anyways if one does the work to understand what happened, and a ws wanders again, there is no point in remaining married, or trying anything....they have revealed (for both of you) the marriage is never going to work, (that applies to both kinds, denial recoveries, where no work was ever done.... and ecducated recoveries, where all the marital issues were supposedly resolved)...and also revealed they can never be trusted (for whatever reason), and if can never be trusted, no reason to be married.... unless you just fear being alone and will settle for what you got as better than nothing.Those who struggle with the committment for life thing are essentially co-dependents, it is an illogical position, one cannot make a committment to something that does not exist. A multiple wanderer ends the marriage, it does not exist except on paper, and has nothing to do with marital love, is essentially a skewed pride.... the psychology of intimacy is permanently destroyed, and God Himself says it is over....you can re-commit (to ws) after each time, and remarry starting a new committment, but why would one do so? We should probably amend the laws such that infidelity means automatic divorce, and people have to remarry to start the marriage again, after a waiting period of 1 year. That would go a long ways towards breaking up all these co-dependentcies.Obviously I am not the bs, but because of how I do things, I try to consider all the positions, and have talked with bs about this (usually after she talks about doing the same thing, wandering). When she asks how I would feel, I tell her I may or may not be angry or hurt, but that I wouldn't try, I would just divorce immediately...IMO any marriage that sustains 2 or more affairs, is done, finished, there is absolutely no reason to restore it.... and those who do will come to regret it eventually, and/or have very shallow marriages.....why? Cause there can never be any trust.....you only get one shot at tbis in a marriage, and can recover trust...only one.As for ons type affair, sex only, I doubt I'd try to restore after even one, why? The spouse has not only trust issues, but is revealed as a sexual predator as well (that is what meaningless sex is about, preying on someone). I would have no interest in their personal healing, or being married to them, no matter how much I liked em otherwise, once that mask has been lifted, there is no going back...and since personality disorders are pretty much permanent, is unlikely they will ever really be marriage material anyways.What I see driving many bs to accept 2 and more affairs is fear of starting over, so they play all sorts of mindgames (denial, committment, take fault, etc.) with themselves to avoid the fundamental truth, their spouse will never be trustworthy, and the marriage will never be a safe/nurturing place....only a quid pro quo (at best, and more often than not is an emotionally neglectful or abusive place as well). Many of these bs are trapped by circumstances, or their own dependentcies, we need to provide resources to help such folks leave these dysfunctional, unhealthy relationships.

Easy answer...nope.

If your WS were to have another A, and knowing what you now know, would you still aim for recovery?Depends on the circumstances. If it was a ONS that could be attributed to alcohol, I would still aim for recovery. If it was the same OM or a new OM and it took the same route that the first A did, not likely. I would definately move to a full on plan b just to give me the time to know for sure that I wanted a divorce then I would likely go that direction.Fool me once,..... fool me twice.....

(Yep for those of you not in recovery yet....you thought the affair was bad...recovery is worse).
Hehehehe, where were you when I began my recovery to tell me this! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] The first few weeks of my recovery have definately been more painful.

Hmmm, two years ago, before I knew about OM1 I would have said, "NO WAY."Now that I am living it, I am still working toward rebuilding our marriage. I'm really trying to keep the family together for the kids. However, what I've learned over the last couple of months about OM2 and OM3 has made my desire to move forward with our relationship a daily struggle. Other lies about time and money are also becoming issues that go beyond just affecting me but now really impacting the family.It may sound screwed up but my W doesn't think I know about OM2 yet. She's only recently reveal information about OM3 to me (WW: "I had a crush. We shared only a kiss.") She claims that there is nothing between her and OM3 now (except he is her boss), she continues the secret relationship with OM2. I think that recovery will be easier if my W admits to what is going to rather than forcing it out of her with the evidence that I have. She didn't with OM1 until confronted with 'the letter'. Now it appears that she found comfort in OM2 just months after OM1 left the country. Even more screwed up is that my W maintained some phone contact with OM1 for quite a while, even during the time now with OM2.I feel like counseling and my faith are still giving me hope (and people on this forum). But look at the alternative. If I don't give all I can to rebuild this marriage, this family, what message does that send to our children? I want to be able to look back in 10 years and have no regrets about my effort. I'm not at a point yet where I feel that I've done all I can. But, this can't go on forever....I'm just using a calendar to measure time rather than an egg timer.HoFS[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: HofFenceSitter ]

Once, and you can accept that your WS is human and made a huge mistake,especially if they are repentant. Twice and it's a pattern that indicates there's a lot more than a simple mistake there that needs remediating. Me, no way, I will not go there again in this lifetime.

I don't think so, its a shame cause I already have a planin the passed I have always screamed "Affair, Affair" and told friends and family. I put him out immediately. He looks like the bad guy and trys desparately to restore our marriage (which will restore his image)IF there is a next time, I would take the rap. I wouldn't tell anyone "why" were separating. Tell him I know, work with him to move out in his time. The bottom line is I would just want out so bad I would do just about anything. I would even air my dirty laundry and blame it on me being molested as a child - I could no longer perform for my H - pretty sick hugh. I would just be willing to do anything to get him out of my life. My goal would not be to get remarried ever so I would be in no hurry to put him out or file for divorce. Sometimes, I think of it as freedom from the fear of betrayal again. Here is what I wrote on the EN board the other day which sums up where I am:I am a success story.What I have come out of rock bottom knowing is that it was all worth it for the person I am now. With or without my H I am totally complete and satisfied. That healthy mindset empowers me to set appropriate boundaries in my marriage and not settle for less than what I am worth.Even if we divorce 10 years from now I will not look back and say I wasted my life. Because I like who I have become. The icing on the cake is that my marriage is becoming better but it does not determine my success in life.

H & I agreed this is the last chance. I will put forth all my effort for a successful marriage, but I don't have a Plan A left in me.

NO.

Well it looks like most of the responses here are no, and I can't say I blame anyone for that.As someone who has been betrayed twice, I can say that the first time it happened 11 years ago I said exactly the same thing. However, when it happened again 9 years later, I found myself still wanting to recover.I guess you never really know what you are going to do until you are actually put in that situation.-HD

I also have to say NO! If my husband has not learned from this experience, he has no second chance!! If there is a second time, there would also be a third!!Le

That would really depend...I'd lean towards "NO FRICKING WAY!!!" right away, but in my heart, I know I had have to find out why and what the problem is before just moving on. In all fairness, this questions can't be honestly answered unless happens (God forbid.)

HD...I guess you never really know what you are going to do until you are actually put in that situation.snl...True of course, but still don't we all try to have some gameplan for life...and what are the consequences of not following it? HD...As someone who has been betrayed twice, I can say that the first time it happened 11 years ago I said exactly the same thing. However, when it happened again 9 years later, I found myself still wanting to recover.snl...This is something that does happen, actually often, and I wonder why, what does that say about someone?1. Does it say they are are um..... kind, and caring, and believe in 2nd and more chances?2. Does it say they simply are too afraid (and that is not unreasonable, lot of risk in starting over) to start over, and will accept less and less in life till some bottom is reached?3. Are they dependent, lost their identity, and are unable to end the marriage (letting their spouse dictate these things).4. Do they truly believe the 2nd (or more) affairs really aren't revealing the truth about someone? (that they are not marriage material for them).5. Do they feel they aren't worthy of anyone else (no one else would love them) so accept what they can get.Hope this is not insensitive HD, I am just wondering, and I do wish you the best... Accepting multiple affairs (and who knows how many you may not have uncovered), but even if just a 2nd one, is a huge deal.....much much more serious than a first one. I have noticed a disturbing trend (especially amongst female bs, not so much male bs) of just accepting their H has serious flaws (abused, serial affairs, alcoholism, neglect etc.) and just sorta figuring it is their lot in life to take care of these men, they don't approve, are not particularly happy, but they will be the trooper, and hold the family together, claiming they love the jerk anyways (what else can they sat?)...why do they do this, clearly has nothing to do with love, love is about mutual protection, safety, nurturing....so what is it? (not saying this all applies to you HD, not familiar with your circumstances at the moment, your post just prompted this re the issue of 2nd chances). So where does it end, 3rd chance, 4th and why there? Why not 20 chances, why not a lifetime of repeated infidelity? The only boundary that makes sense is the 2nd one, the rest are all the same, the first you learn, the 2nd is the deal breaker, if not, something is amiss for sure IMO.

I am still wondering if I am going to make it through this one - a 2nd one - NO!!! I will not go through this again. I have given him so many chances already, and think I am about to have another discovery of contact... NO MORE this time or ever.
S

No mas.After learning all about what he should have/could have done to protect himself from other women, from "falling into an A", he has no more excuses for making such an error again. My H was vulnerable to an OW the first time. Now he is supposedly wiser. Steps have been taken to guaruntee he doesn't find himself in potentially compromising situations. And there ARE other options to having an A. Trying to communicate/negotiate with me on whatever he considers an unmet need, getting us into counseling, being open and honest with me about an attraction going on....or just flat out asking for a divorce. We both learned an A is a destructive, hurtful choice. It is is a non-option. And to choose it again, after all the crap we've gone thru...would just be passive-aggressive beyond words. I now trust my H to a certain extent--meaning no longer blindly. But I trust myself even more to know when someone is toxic in my life.

I’m going to have to side with the “can’t honestly say side”. Look, lets face, it pre D-Day we all made delusional statements to the effect of never standing for it, yet here we are. That’s my answer after careful consideration.Now if you’re interested in my hip shot answer it would go something like this. No I wouldn’t be aiming for recovery, I’d be Aiming for an imaginary bulls eye centered somewhere between her eyes. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] oz

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
True of course, but still don't we all try to have some gameplan for life...and what are the consequences of not following it? <hr></blockquote>Of course we can have a gameplan, and a lot of times we do. I think that what I was trying to say is that we can tell ourselves what we would do if we were ever thrown into a traumatic situation, but until we are really "under fire," you sometimes just never know how you will truly react. <blockquote>quote:<hr>HD...As someone who has been betrayed twice, I can say that the first time it happened 11 years ago I said exactly the same thing. However, when it happened again 9 years later, I found myself still wanting to recover.snl...This is something that does happen, actually often, and I wonder why, what does that say about someone?1. Does it say they are are um..... kind, and caring, and believe in 2nd and more chances?<hr></blockquote>Maybe, to a certain extent. It obviously depends a lot on the current situation. <blockquote>quote:<hr>2. Does it say they simply are too afraid (and that is not unreasonable, lot of risk in starting over) to start over, and will accept less and less in life till some bottom is reached?<hr></blockquote>Good question. I'm sure in some cases that's true as well. In my case we had a 2 year old daughter, so it made things a little more complicated then the first time around. I thought I owed it to her to try and reconcile so that she could have a happy home. My parents were divorced when I was a child, and I want to avoid putting my own kids through that if I can. <blockquote>quote:<hr>3. Are they dependent, lost their identity, and are unable to end the marriage (letting their spouse dictate these things).<hr></blockquote>In my case, no. I've never thought I had an identity crisis - although I did go through a bout of depression for about six months during recovery. We both are well compensated in our professions, and I could live very well financially on my own. Neither of us really dictates things to the other. <blockquote>quote:<hr>4. Do they truly believe the 2nd (or more) affairs really aren't revealing the truth about someone? (that they are not marriage material for them).<hr></blockquote>Of course not! It reveals quite a bit. The first time you like to think that it was an anomaly - that they would never ever do that again because of the pain involved. The second time you realize that maybe this person will always have some kind of weakness, and that it's up to you as a couple to recognize it and always be on the lookout for future vulnerabilities.As far as being marriage material...well, I think a person needs to look at the marriage as a whole. Were most of the times with this person happy? Was there always conflict? If you took the affair away would you truly think that this person was special? etc... There's no easy answer to it, and everyone is different. <blockquote>quote:<hr>5. Do they feel they aren't worthy of anyone else (no one else would love them) so accept what they can get. <hr></blockquote>The self-esteem of a betrayed spouse certainly goes through a lot during a period like this, and thoughts like that do inevitably enter your mind early on. However, over time I think it does fade. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Accepting multiple affairs...is a huge deal.....much much more serious than a first one.<hr></blockquote>Yes. I'll grant you that. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I have noticed a disturbing trend (especially amongst female bs, not so much male bs) of just accepting their H has serious flaws (abused, serial affairs, alcoholism, neglect etc.) and just sorta figuring it is their lot in life to take care of these men, they don't approve, are not particularly happy, but they will be the trooper, and hold the family together, claiming they love the jerk anyways (what else can they sat?)...why do they do this, clearly has nothing to do with love, love is about mutual protection, safety, nurturing....so what is it? <hr></blockquote>I really don't know the answer to that. That trend may exist, and in some cases it could be because the wife has self-esteem or identity/dependency issues. But love is a strange thing. It's not easy to define or translate into words. Love can be about protection, safety, nurturing, etc, but in cases like what you describe above a lot of times we aren't getting the whole picture of what is actually going on. A spouse may be miserable and stay with a mate simply because they don't believe in divorce, but I think more often they just try to look and see that there are more positives than negatives...so they stay, and try again.Also, I don't know from your post if you know this or not, but I'm a guy. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr>So where does it end, 3rd chance, 4th and why there? Why not 20 chances, why not a lifetime of repeated infidelity? The only boundary that makes sense is the 2nd one, the rest are all the same, the first you learn, the 2nd is the deal breaker, if not, something is amiss for sure IMO.<hr></blockquote>I think it ends when the betrayed spouse has finally had enough. Only they know when that is. The idea that the only boundary being the 2nd is just an opinion. In my case, my wife's second affair was nine years after the first. We were at a much different place in our lives. I struggled initially with whether or not to end the marriage, but after weighing everything I found that I still loved her. There are so many good things about her. Yes, she does have her flaws - we all do - but she has made the commitment to try and work through it. She showed incredible remorse for what happened. In her case she never set out to have an affair. It was just the result of an office friendship that grew and grew into something else. Dr. Harley has described very well how affairs first happen, and he has described her situation to a "T" in the book "Surviving an Affair." She had some Emotional Needs that were not being met by me at the time, and not really knowing what that was (we didn't have the benefit of this website then), it was difficult for her to identify exactly why she was developing feelings for this other man. All she knew was that she liked being around him, and the more she was around him, the more she became attracted to him. By the time they both expressed their feelings for one another, it was too late. They were off and running to the motel room for their get togethers. By the way, the other man is also married, and I don't know if this was his first affair or not. One of the things that gave me the hope that we could recover was that she actually ended the affair herself, and then she told me about it. She had incredible guilt over what she was doing (increased even more by the knowledge that it was a second time), and wanted to come clean with me so that we could work on what was wrong with our marriage. Ever since then she has been an open book with me, and has been willing to do whatever was necessary to win back my trust and to repair the damage that was done. I'm lucky in a sense, because not all of the people here have had a spouse that was willing to do that. I figured it would have been an incredible waste if I at least didn't try.So that's it! Whew! I think that's my longest post ever! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] -HD

No. Does the ease with which I say that reflect an emotion or feeling that is hindering recovery? hg

My H had two A. He came clean on his own a couple of years later so I already had two to deal with but only one d-day. D-day was almost two years ago. While watching Oprah the other day Dr. Phil said something to the effect about once the BS has made the WS fully aware of the hurt they have caused them then if they cheat again they do so knowing full well the damage they will cause to their spouse.Not that they shouldn't have known in the first place but there may be a difference as they maybe hadn't lived through the BS pain the first time. Hope this makes sense.So my answer is no. If my H ever does it again he'll only find an attorney there to give his sorry excuses to.
MM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>br...So if he did it again...he'd be doing it with full knowledge of exactly what kind of hurt he'd be causing me. It would also indicate to me, after all this work on rebuilding trust, that there was no way to trust him.
snl...Not to downplay any hurt hurts, but that is not really the point IMO, and affairs aren't about the bs (or their hurt) anyways usually. It is the trust issue that is key IMO... the successful intimate human relationship we call marriage has a foundation built on trust, without it love cannot exist, and without love, intimacy does not exist....only accomodation/settleing are possible.<hr></blockquote>Spoken like a WS that has really doesn't "get it". Look, I know that affairs are not about the BS or their pain. But the question was about the me, the BS, and what would I do.I know that I needa spouse who will protect me from himself. A second affair would indicate that my spouse was unwilling to protect me. This is not a question about the WS, its a question about me and MY needs.
The whys and wherefores as to the WS's motivations is irrelevant to the question in my situation. We've done all this work, and we are no longer uninformed about what it takes to be married and to protect each other. One reason I've been willing to give my H another chance was because he didn't understand any better than I did about what it took to be married. We both agreed to things that harmed us, out of ignorance.Right now my H is walking walk and talking the talk. His willingness to protect me from this happening again is really why I was able to risk recovery. IF his selfishness takes over, and he doesn't use the tools we have been given to protect me from his weaknesses...then most likely, all bets are off.Why most likely? Because my initial reaction is, No way in hell would he get another chance. But the reality is I don't really know until I am in the situation.And snl...just because a WS has proven him/herself not to be marriage material - it doesn't necessarily follow that there is something wrong with the BS for staying (codependency, fear, low self-esteem). Maybe the BS made that decision for other reasons (shrug).I know there are alot of people that think my taking my H back after years of abuse and dysfunction on both sides was a decision based on fear and weakness. It wasn't, but its also an indication of my new found self-esteem that I don't find it necessary to defend or explain my reasons to everyone out there who questions my mental health.People make decisions to stay in marriages all the time for reasons that have nothing to do with emotional health or dysfunction.Sometimes, it's just called responsiblitily and obligation. Its that simple.

br, this was about multiple affairs (starting at 2), I think I pretty much said what you said.As for reasons why a bs might stay again, I was pretty much just throwing out notions, sure there is lots more. But for the most part, I don't think there is any particularly good reason to continue to live in intimacy with multiple infidelity....either there is something seriously wrong with the individual, or something seriously wrong with the marriage (which gets into what infidelity actually is, but that is another issue).....nor do I think people change very much, a fact verified by the psychologists. It is conceiveable (barely) that #2 could be a pivot point, depending on circumstances, which would have to be looked at very very hard....should mean the marriage is not really a safe place for either ws or bs, they don't fit.....but could be cause the ws is dysfunctional in a way that leads to affairs, but if protected from them, and watched closely, could maybe be faithful (but never safe)...the question is, why on earth would one want to be in such a marriage, why not just be friends with them? I like a lot of MB stuff, but I don't believe in protecting the marriage (from affairs per se, but I do believe in some of the things they call protections), if you are in-love it is unncessary (something harley says as well in his last book), you protect from weaknesses or ignorance, so since most marriages are not intially based on love (IMO, but that is another issue too), until that issue is resolved, and people choose each other out of proper knowledge and intent, makes sense to apply rules of protection.....but once one is aware of infidelity, and how it happens, nothing to protect against....personally I would prefer no protection, and simply divorce if infidelity occurs, (and be friends whatever, but accept that individual is not possible for me to have an intimate relationship with, don't fit well enough). I think people take infidelity a little too lightly often, I think it really does say alot about how you fit someone (and the likelihood you will have a safe, joyous, nurturing life with them), and is a natural consequence of bad fit. That makes people angry, cause many want to believe in the fairytale, and live happily ever after.... I think there are anthropological reasons for that, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion.btw, from what I know (and you have posted re your circumstances) I don't think you took him back out of fear br, but I do have an opinion, which I will tell you sometime if you really want to know (it is not appropriate to just say it without your permission).[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ][ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

i have allready given this alot of thought. i learned how strong i really am- there is not a chance in he** i would put myself or my children in this situation again. not that i put us here, my husband made that choice all on his own. i have always had a very vengefull side-- if he ever chose to do this again i would do a lot of things differently. i would keep my mouth shut, i allready know i can endure the pain, collect all the info i need and then meticously take their lives apart one piece at a time. all the while being the loving wife at home. they wouldnt even see me coming. i behaved myself this time, never confronted her, never screamed at him or love busted, just put my mind to repairing my marriage. this is my second marriage and i think the thing that amazed my husband the most in all this is the fact i havent done anything to either of them. he got a glimpse of my "evil twin" in dealing with my ex-husband when he thought it would be funny to kidnap my 2 1/2 yr. old son. i thought it was even funnier when the fbi and state police were at his mothers house harrassing her. i thought it was funnier when the irs started asking about his private bussiness. his credit is shot to hell and he is now bankrupt and living in his mothers basement. i have always told people i dont play games with my life, and if you push me into a game, i can promise two things- i WILL win, and i wont play fair to do it.
I sometimes give new meaning to BIT**!!

If my husband becomes brainless enough to have another affair after all that we have been through and all of the changes we have made together...he wouldn't deserve me. I would have to leave. My tires would screech out of the driveway in a heartbeat.

I don't think I would. But one doesn't really know until it happens. This shows that the person is mentally unstable, or they just don't give a dam about anything, marriage, spouse, kids, family, etc. They obviously didn't learn from the first one. They can see all the signs, connections happening, and feelings happening. They know what to look for, and they know how the feelings start. All the counselors told me the OW knew she was starting another affair. Why would she suggest to my H to e-mail him privately? Why would the conversation go to cell-phone? Why did she say she wanted to go to the hotel, instead of out to dinner? She is a wicked woman.This is why I am still totally confused about why my paper H would find anything in this OW. This being the OW for sure 2nd physical affair, and possibly a third. This woman is not stable emotionally.

It seems to me that the majority of those in recovery, probably would NOT aim for marital recovery again. If I was reading the replies right (there were far more than I anticipated!), it also seems that those that are not quite in recovery would be willing to do it all again. That means you still have a bunch of plan A still in you. Wanna share some? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Oh, and nikko - I like your style!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Karen[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Topie25 ]

Interesting topic…Dodson takes a very tough love approach. Basically says that an affair is the so disrespectful that a BS should just throw out the WS with no chance for reconciliation ever. There is a lot of wisdom in that.Harley says that most marriages can be saved, hence the MB books and this web site. But he says another very interesting thing. He says that if his wife were to ever have an affair he would let her go. He would take the Dodson approach. Now this sounds odd coming from Dr. Harley but I believe that his point is that most people don’t know how to have a good marriage or how to affair proof the marriage. So it makes sense to learn all they can from the affair and repair their marriage. But if a person already knows the MB material and how to keep passionate love going and affair proof their marriage (and themselves), then what is the point of reconciliation? Once aware, the WS commits a greater wrong in having an affair. So my response? No…. if he has another affair, then there is nothing more we can do to repair our marriage. If I have an affair the same would hold true.

ON D-DAY I kicked my H out, separated our accounts, changed PIN numbers and was headed on my way to a divorce lawyer all before noon....until I was intercepted and told to slow down by my close friend. The next night I found this website and found out how ignorant my H and I had been about preventing A's, so I swallowed all my pride and gave him a second chance...I reacted and did just about everything I always said I would if my H cheated on me. Think I knew myself pretty well. Had I not found this website when I did, we'd be divorced right now. I have no qualms about doing what I say I'm going to do. I have no qualms about doing things the way I originally planned on, heaven forbid, D-day #2. The "accident" excuse is used all up.I swallowed my pride this first time because of our ignorance, a lingering sense of committment but mostly because I still had a feeling of friendship and wanting to help my H. Maybe as a female BS, I'm used to being emotionally supportive to confused or stumbling friends. BUT if the support isn't working, sometimes you just have to let them hit rock bottom on their own and take their knocks so they can wake up. Do it all the time. To look at it another way...if I had the A, we went thru this all-points encompassing recovery, and then I went out and had a 2nd A...man, I maliciously threw away all that I had learned just for an emotional or physical bootie call! My H had BETTER dump me! I'd want him to protect himself. I've got deeper-seated problems than Harley is equipped to deal with. I need tougher love, heavier-duty individual counseling...a 2 X 4...something different!

No, not on your life, when pigs fly and fish talk. I agree with what everyone has already said. It hurt, he saw the pain, if he chooses to make that mistake again, he chooses to hurt me. Adios I can do better.

Good question, my immediate response is "hell no" but that's what I said just prior to my W's A. I have to agree w/ some of what I read here. Me and my W have learned alot about ourselves and our marriage as a result of her A. We've both grown alot and learned alot about A's and marriage as a whole. For her (or me for that matter) to do such a thing now after knowing all that...I'd have to say no. I know it's easier said than done, but it's one thing to err withoug knowledge or reason, it's another to do it armed w/ the truth.Just my thoughts, good luck [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

As I read this thread, it just keeps coming back to me that my H DID know what he was doing, maybe even more than if he was a WS for the second time. It may be his first time as a WS (though I'd like some way of learning if THAT'S even the truth), but his status as a two-time BS before he married me should at least give him the knowledge of the BS's pain.Maybe this is where my hopelessness comes from. If you can do this to someone having already have felt it yourself and THAT didn't stop you, then what would? Isn't one of the reasons a WS who doesn't do it again because of witnessing the pain of the BS? And that's just SEEING it, not FEELING it.Honestly, is there any reason for me to continue in this world of his? Is there anyone else here on these boards who has been in my situation, whose WS used to be a BS in a previous M? Have I been deluding myself this whole time as my family keeps telling me? Is this why I keep feeling that I will never get over it if I stay married to him?

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ][ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]

WS had a EA over 20 years ago and it was painful but I had small children that I could not care for alone. We stayed together but did NO recovery at all....never once talked about the A. I was so codependent and could not live with out WS. This EA/PA is very different and I agree that if WS can do this again after causing himself, me and others so much pain, that there is no way I would reconcile again. (I have not even decided if I will reconcile now) I have learned to be a better me and I KNOW I can make it alone now. I DO NOT want to go through this again.BR---(Yep for those of you not in recovery yet....you thought the affair was bad...recovery is worse).BR---What does this mean???? That is scary.TW

One affair shame on her, two affairs shame on me. I would have to agree with the thought, however, that I did say at one time that I would leave her if she had an A (turns out she had 4), so I really don't know what I would do if she did it again. Right now I think this has been a life changing experience and has really opened my eyes to the realities of life and marriage, and with the knowledge I have gained through all of this I think the wise choice would be to leave, once can be percieved as a mistake but after that it isn't a mistake or ignorance, rather it is a total lack of respect, honesty, and caring for the other person in the marriage. I agree with snl, when do you stop giving them chances....life is to short.

I know for sure that that would be end of our marriage. We only have so many years to live. This is so hard and painful to deal with. Our aim is to one day feel happy and live the good life again. If there was another A I would know that the only way to have some hope of a rich and fulfilling life would be minus him. As much as I love him and would hate to leave him, I know that another A would tell me to get real, face it, this relationship is not good for you.
C&S

Bramble Rose, Topie25, and Longing -Why is Recovery harder?Topie25 - You said the A wasn't the issue - everything else was.....could you explain that?(I'm in plan A, although WH move out of state to "work" , so as Steve says it's really a psuedo plan B)
As for a next time, I don't have it in me. I'm not sure I have it in my now, but then again, we are not in recovery.
[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Bramble Rose, Topie25, and Longing -Why is Recovery harder?Topie25 - You said the A wasn't the issue - everything else was.....could you explain that?(I'm in plan A, although WH move out of state to "work" , so as Steve says it's really a psuedo plan B)
As for a next time, I don't have it in me. I'm not sure I have it in my now, but then again, we are not in recovery.
[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

I just gave WH another chance, d-day number 2 was just over a month ago. I feel like a fool for falling for his crap again, but somehow I still want to work on this M. I cant answer why exactly. My brain is screaming get out now, this is a pattern that he'll never stop. He has let me down twice, and both times in the exact same manner..... My heart is whispering, you married this man for better or worse, sickness and health.He is a very sick man at the moment (chatline addiction, alcholic, depression) and I feel if I left him, I would be the one betraying him. Even as I am typing this I realize how stupid that sounds. I have always been a logical thinker, almost like a marriage is a business deal. And if one of the parties breaks the contract, then no more business. Yet, my emotional side looks at him, and I know that I will never stop loving him.But to answer the question, knowing now what I do, no, I would not stay committed to him should there be a 3rd time. If he could be so cold and disrespectful to me again, he's on his own, and good luck to him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by WillGetThruThis:
Topie25 - You said the A wasn't the issue - everything else was.....could you explain that?
<hr></blockquote>As you know from your reading the articles on this site (and the numerous mentionings of it on the boards) - the A's happened due to the choice of the WS. But the environment of the M prior to the A is what made them feel the need to, um, whatever! (get out, release, have fun, etc). So, the A was simply a symptom of the marital problems, not the cause.So, once you're in recovery, you have to work on fixing all that was toxic in your M prior to the A. There are very logical reasons for the feelings that lead our WS's to choose an A as their outlet. Basically, their love banks ran so low, that they went elsewhere to get their needs met. When in recovery, you have to start working on meeting those EN's. We start to learn about meeting them during our Plan A's. But I found, that there was something envigorating about it all - the 'newness' of becoming a better me. Ideally, it sticks with us. But you know what? Old habits DO die hard - and once you're back in the M saddle again, it is all too easy to fall back on old 'routines'. Recovery seems to start out by dealing with the A's. You know all of those countless questions you have running through your head that you feel the need for answers to? Well, once you get the answers (which are all the same, but we need to sincerely hear them from our WS), then you move on to fixing all of the other stuff. And more likely than not, there is an awful LOT of other stuff. You take it one issue at a time (as best you can), but you're also dealing with a new M, a new spouse, and a new you. It's very draining.It's at that point that you realize that this whole thing isn't about the A at all!!! Hard to believe, isn't it? But it's true.Does that help any? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Karen

I'm still having my doubts with the first one. So no way. I have more respect for myself than that.

Topie25 ,Karen, thanks for your response. I think it does help. Right now my WH is only home a few days a month, but I think if he were here all the time, IT WOULD BE DRAINING!!!My IC just said the same thing to me last week, it's not about the affair. I was outraged - of course it is....that's why it hurts so much. I can see how working through all of this is draining, emotionally as well as physically. Last time WH was home, he admitted to 2 PA's that I asked him about. I don't think he see the EA part as harmful.This may sound like a stupid question but does recovery start when they admit the A(s) or when they promise to end it? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Whoa, Conqueror!There are a number of people here I can think of that have said their spouse's were once betrayed in previous relationships, now they're the betrayer. Twyla, Zorweb, New Beginning... <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
If you can do this to someone having already have felt it yourself and THAT didn't stop you, then what would?<hr></blockquote>Learning how to prevent yourself from having an A. Your own personal set of vulnerabilities. THAT kind of knowledge is imperitive. Not just knowledge of pain.It's also been said that betrayed spouses are actually vulnerable to having secondary affairs because their "Taker" side comes out after having been the "Giver" for so long. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Isn't one of the reasons a WS who doesn't do it again because of witnessing the pain of the BS? And that's just SEEING it, not FEELING it.<hr></blockquote>Some people say this. Some people believe it. Maybe it's true for some. But I've also heard people say "I NEVER thought I'd cheat on my spouse after having gone thru that same pain in my first marriage!". So it's not the deterrant you may think it should be.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Honestly, is there any reason for me to continue in this world of his? Is there anyone else here on these boards who has been in my situation, whose WS used to be a BS in a previous M? Have I been deluding myself this whole time as my family keeps telling me? Is this why I keep feeling that I will never get over it if I stay married to him?<hr></blockquote>Whether or not you continue on, C, should not be based on this "BW turned WS" factor. I'm not saying you should STAY in a relationship because of this one factor, either. You have alot of other factors/issues to look at before you can come to any conclusions.

NOT JUST NO, BUT HELL NO!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WillGetThruThis:
This may sound like a stupid question but does recovery start when they admit the A(s) or when they promise to end it? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [/QUOTE}Admitting the A doesn't mean they are wanting to end it. Promising to end it doesn't mean they actually will. Or promise full-heartedly, only to "slip" back into the A. And they have to get thru that icky "withdrawal" period before true recovery work can begin.And any contact with the old OM or OW--even if they are remorseful afterwards--puts you back to square one on the recovery gameboard.To me, recovery begins when the WS commits themselves to the marriage, is doing the recovery work and trying to meet your needs as well...Ok, going back to my "home" forum now, In Recovery. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by WillGetThruThis:
does recovery start when they admit the A(s) or when they promise to end it? <hr></blockquote>When their actions scream out louder than their words, then you know it's for real.IMO, when admitting the A's, it's a great step for them. Mainly because so much of the fantasy associated with the secrecy of an A is gone. Then again, I'm sure there are many WS's out there who were happy to get it out in the open, like a huge weight had been lifted from their shoulders.I would love to have a dollar for every WS associated with this board (mostly the WS's of the BS's who post here) who has SAID they will end their A!! I'd be one rich woman!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Just remember: ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS!! You keep that in mind when in plan A (and recovery too!), and you keep that in mind with your WS. Just as we have to PROVE ourselves to our spouses, they have to do the same for us.Karen

<blockquote>quote:<hr>
If your WS were to have another A, and knowing what you now know, would you still aim for recovery?
[/QB]<hr></blockquote> HELL NO! I believe in second chances. After that all bets are off. If he did it again after all that we have been through and what we have accomplished then I would know that it was a fatal character flaw in him, and not just an isolated, horrible mistake. Getting the trust back was hard enough after one A, it would be impossible for me after 2.

I would never be able to handle this again. We have both had A's in our early years and had promised we would never hurt each other like that again, and after 17yrs. he has a MLC and finds someone else. It was devastating to find out and I still can't believe he would ever hurt me like that again. I know he's sorry and it hurts him to see how badly he has hurt me, but I don't think he really realizes how much it destroyed a part of me and things will never be the same. I already told him if it ever happened again that would be it. I'm too old to wait forever.

This thread has made me feel SO MUCH BETTER!! I have been mulling through the thoughts of how I wouldn't go through it all again should H have another A. I was actually feeling somewhat guilty by it too! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] As usual for this board, this is another case where I've found comfort in knowing that I'm not the only one who feels plan A'd out.Karen

No, I would not tolerate another affair. The only reason I let him stay was because he convinced he had CHANGED. If it happened again, I would know that he had not changed after all. It was hard enough for me to learn to love and respect him again after D-Day, I know it would kill every feeling I have for him if it happened again.

Chalk up another no answer.For the past 4 months since D-Day my world has been turned upside down, everything that I thought I knew and believed about my W has been questioned. The "facts" that I gleaned while dating have again been questioned. I Love her very much, and truly have doubt if I can make it through this first time - but that is only on my very down days when triggers seem to be hitting me from all sides.As it has been said before I think I can probably struggle through recovery with her this once. After this, no dice, uh-uh, not gonna happen.