Cards from my H and my problem with them - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Here is the text of a couple of cards my H has given to me recently:#1--
To my wife.....Honey,
there's a very good reason
why I don't always express
how much I care about you
and appreciate all
the wonderful things you do...(inside)
I'm a guy.Handwritten addition:I really do appreciate everything you do and everything we are together. I love you.#2--
A Loving Message For My Wife"These I Can Promise"I cannot promise you a life of sunshine,
I cannot promise you riches, wealth, or gold,
I cannot promise you an easy pathway
That leads away from change or growing old.But I can promise all my heart's devotion,
A smile to chase away your tears of sorrow,
A love that's ever true and ever growing,
A hand to hold in yours through each tomorrow...Two loving arms to shelter and protect you,
The knowledge that I need you more than ever,
And all the happiness that love can give you
As, hand in hand, we walk through life together.With All My Love (each of these words he doubly underlined before he signed his name underneath them)My reaction:Mostly I feel sad and helpless. My H has always given me cards like this. He is very good at the romantic stuff when he flips that switch and is in that mode. And I assume he is trying to send me a clear message with these cards, and he probably means it. But I feel helpless at the receiving end I guess because no matter how much he may mean it, I can't bank on words or gestures like that anymore.And it has been a constant theme of the M where he will ignore meeting the needs I expressly request his help with (currently the A issues) and does a bunch of nice things instead. When this doesn't satisfy me, he usually ends up angry because I "don't appreciate what he does for me". I've tried to explain repeatedly that no amount of meeting my need for affection will compensate for neglecting my other most important needs.I've used his own needs as examples. I've also used the analogy of the power company and the water company--that while I'm sure the power company would love getting all kinds of extra money, if you fail to pay the water company, the water's going to get turned off no matter how much extra $ you lavished on the power company.Guess I feel sad that it doesn't have the effect he is probably hoping it will have. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img][ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]

Since your H has trouble actually speaking how he feels (as judging by some of your previous posts), I think it's great that he is taking the time to give you those cards.However, I can understand how they just don't mean anything to you anymore, especially if you may have received some during his A.I cannot offer much advice for you, as I'm going through similar problems with my H, trying to get him to meet my needs. But all I can figure, is that your H may need constant reminders of what it is that you really want and need from him. Maybe make up a list of SPECIFICS he can carry in his wallet? I'd like to think that EVENTUALLY it's gotta come as 2nd nature to them, right? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] One of the things my H loves to do is rent and watch movies. He thinks he is doing a wonderful thing to call me and ask what movie it is I would like to see. I really couldn't care less about watching many movies. What I would rather see him do with the money he would put towards my new release is to buy me a card or some flowers or something DIFFERENT.One of the things my H and I are going to try again is to fill out the EN questionnaires for each other, and consider them as our Marriage Bibles right now. Hopefully that will work.I really do like your power vs water equation!! That's brilliant!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Some analogies are better than others, and I think yours is in the top 10 for explaining EN's being met!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (well, maybe it's #1 on account that I cannot think of any others that I've read!!! LOL).Karen

Conquerer, I remember posting about being angry that my xws would e-mail me beautiful letters, but never say that stuff to my face. I believe it was Zorweb who suggested that I appreciate the fact that he is writing it and encourage more of it instead of telling him not to do it at all. It's my way or no way at all? Since I changed the way that I looked at it, my negativity about it has completely gone away. It worked for me, but maybe not for you, and that's ok.Can you tell him that although you know that he is trying to meet a need of yours, he's really not depositing many points into the account, BUT ________ would deposit so many more. A handwritten note, (not a Hallmark), a backrub, a clean kitchen, a day set aside to talk about affair issues? This is not a case of "treat others as *you* wish to be treated." It's "treat other's as *they* wish to be treated."We filled out the EN questionaires back in October. To be honest, I forgot what my top 5 were and certainly didn't recall xws's top 5. I went thru them again and wrote down his top 5 and a list of specifics to put in my wallet so that I can review it often. I will do the same for my xws when I find mine. I knew that affection was important to him, but I wasn't doing and saying the things that he said were important to him. I find that if I am meeting his needs, he tries very hard to meet mine.I liked your analogy too! Good one!take care,
tinlizzy

Hello, For hte sake of conversation my name will be Mark.Recently our marriage problems have really surfaced.I tried to aproach my wife with the emotional needs questionaire --- but she said"she could'nt answer the questions as they were laid-out.
I know, that I screwed-up without realizing it; but its hard to satisfy unspecified needs.
Can anyone offer suggestions on how to find out what needs, or how to get her to fill out the E.M. questionaire. All suggestions are helpful !!

Thank you Mark.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by hope4us2:
 Can anyone offer suggestions on how to find out what needs, or how to get her to fill out the E.M. questionaire<hr></blockquote>When you do things for your W, ask her how she feels about it. Ask her what she would like you to do. Choose all sorts of areas to ask her these questions. During sex, during dinner, offer to do dinner and/or laundry (if you don't already), then ask her if she liked it or not. Offer her a massage. Then ask her how it makes her feel. Try to use open ended questions (those are questions that cannot be answered with either a yes or no response).And most importantly, REMEMBER what she's told you! More likely than not, your W has already hinted to you what it is she needs from you. Many of those hints are 'between the lines', as the saying goes. Now would be a good time for you to look back at previous situations (in my case, it was during arguments), and remember what she wanted. (My H used to always talk about how one couple we knew would always give each other quick kisses every now and then, even in front of company. What he REALLY wanted me to know was that he needed that behaviour from ME!!!).Hope this helps some. And perhaps once your W is able to open up to you more (which will probably happen as you fulfil her needs more), she will fill out the EN questionnaires with you.Karen

I do always thank him for expressions like these and tell him how much I appreciate them, but in the past we have had many, many conversations and arguments about each other's needs, and I have explained the Harley model to him since before we were married--exactly as you stated tinlizzy--that the Golden Rule does not apply because me doing unto him what I want done unto me will not necessarily work and vice versa because we most likely have very different needs. At one point about halfway through the M we even read HNHN together! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] So, I know he has the information he needs to know and understand the concept. He would probably fill out the questionnaires if I asked him to, but I haven't so far because I'm stuck on the very first step from SAA: Reveal information about the A. That need is so high and out-trumps all other needs right now, so I'm afraid to distract him with the "normal" ENs on the questionnaire. But maybe I should go ahead with the questionnaires and capitalize and underline and highlight in the H&O section a comment about my need to know and process all the A stuff. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Flashing lights all around that particular item might be helpful as well. I just don't know how to get through to him on this single issue. I want the A to be out in the open and talked about. I'd rather talk to him about it than all the time I spend on here talking about it. I guess I just need to say all that to him yet AGAIN and see what happens.

Hmmm... I hear what you are saying it's like you are stuck at this one point and until your H is able to help you move out of that place, no amount of his own attempts will work. Especially after he knows what you need to get out of the rut. So basically is he just being stubborn? Trying to just sweep everything under the rug? Can't face the truth? Trying to protect you?????? He has some kind of reason. Maybe he is just downright afraid.Maybe there IS no solution to this??? I just hope he realizes that he is pushing you further and further into a state of withdrawal the more he refuses to open up!!!It must be so hard for you not to LB, but it sounds like you guys are at a standstill and he knows why but won't budge. Like he is punishing you or something? Then he tries to turn it around to make you look like a bad guy? Is this more of a sort of power struggle between you two??? I don't know Conqueror but if you can get your man to talk when he doesn't want to then you WILL be MORE than a conqueror!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] When you discover the secret--let me know!!Might just be one of those situations that nothing will penetrate except prayer, prayer, and more prayer...

I think it's fear. I think he is running as fast as he can from facing himself and what he did. He's trying to do penance in the form that is most comfortable to him, maybe thinking that if he does what he should have done before the A, then all will be well, and he can pretend the A didn't happen and that somehow I'll forget, too, maybe. But none of that will have any effect until after the A is dealt with. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img][ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]

dear conqueroe- if you lived in nj i would ask if we were married to the same man

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by nikko:
dear conqueroe- if you lived in nj i would ask if we were married to the same man<hr></blockquote>Now, wouldn't that be a new twist, and wouldn't we make a whole bunch of $ selling our story? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi C,
Me again. I havent been coming here much lately so had to really search for your posting.[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: sadprincess ]

SP,Is that what it is? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I thought I was just a garden-variety conflict avoider. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] The shirt's gone. I love having sex with him (one of the attractions of staying in the M); I just don't like the guest he imposed upon me that detracts from my emotional connection to him during sex. And I definitely have to take exception to the assertion that I think I hurt more than anyone else. Never felt that way. Know better than that. I can see that every day on here.I hope I haven't caused anyone to feel that I am minimizing their pain in comparison to mine. If so, I apologize. The only comparison I remember making is to my own pain when I went through this during my first M. It never even occurred to me that that would happen in that M. I thought I was smarter this time around because I knew it could happen and thought I had done everything I could to ensure that it wouldn't.Maybe it doesn't actually hurt worse this time, but it does hurt differently because the circumstances are so different. I thought I had some answers, but I didn't. I feel more constrained this time. I know too much. I know what divorce is like. The choices are harder.Anyway, that's within my context. I sure wouldn't apply it to anyone else's.SP, I know you don't have any evil intent, and I'll try to process it constructively.On the up side, I am speaking up more. I told him I couldn't watch that movie the other night. Tonight he wanted me to go shopping for a wedding present and card for his relative, and I said I didn't want to. He asked me why. I told him it would be too triggery. He stared at me for awhile, then rolled his eyes and mumbled, "I don't get it." as he turned back around to watch TV. I said, "Yes, I know. That's part of the problem."Unfortunately, the kids were around, so I couldn't pursue it further at that time. But I am cracking the door open instead of running away. May be slow, but I think I'm going in the right direction, and if not, I can count on you to let me know, right? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Yes, I think it is good (& healthy) for you to be speaking your mind like you have been doing. Perhaps it will help your H to "get it" before it's too late. I think that is a very good step. Then, you won't be seething in resentment all the time for doing things you don't really want to do. Why torture yourself? You know?Maybe the next step is to calmly sit down and in a nice way, explain to your H what a "trigger" is and how it affects you. That word is spoken around here often and MBers all know what it means, but maybe he really needs to understand how a trigger can throw you back 2 steps when you have made one step forward in getting past the past.

C
Wow, what a healthy post [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
I am glad you are speaking up also.
I think it is the norm rather than the exception for the WS to not "get it". We recently got a new(for us) car one of the cars we looked at was same kind as OW, I said I was glad we didnt get it. He just shook his head and said "really?"
In the beginning when he would say "get over it" I would say "I know honey you would have been over it by now" uh did I ever tell you Im sarcastic?
It did seem to help when I told him it seemed to be the norm here to take about 2 years to get over this. I guess it gave him a timeframe, a light at the end of the tunnel.
I dont know if you can count on me to hound you anymore, I really have cut down on my MB time. I am thinking of just posting in recovery now. You know you are welcome to use my email address anytime you like.
I know you didnt minimize anyones pain, you have been a true friend to many people here. You give great advice to others and really care.
I have had a really hard time with feeling like a failure because I chose a cheater, again! What am I a moron? What is wrong with me that guys think they can do this to me? I am certainly not a wimp oh maybe thats it I am too aggressive.....yadayada
I worry that you hold on to your secret bitterness. You smile and put on your normal face so of course he thinks whatever worked before will work again. I am glad your working on being more open.
I really wish the best for you.
Lisa

BTDT,I was going to say he knows what a trigger is, but all I really "know" is that I explained to him several times what it is and how it is like having the shock and trauma of discovery all over again. Of course, back then I was getting triggers AND more discoveries, so who knows how much he may or may not have retained--maybe nothing.SP,I'm still trying to figure out how to share my painful feelings with someone who offers no comfort. Every time it happened, I withdrew further and further. It just multiplies it for me. I hate to lose what functionality I currently have by melting down again. Most of the time I just wish this wasn't my life. Still trying to let go and face reality that it is and that there's not a damn thing I can do about it. Lot of grief to go through that I want what I can never have. Don't know how to get rid of the wanting. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Maybe you can come up with some sort of really graphic explanation without mentioning the word that will grab his attention. I think of triggers like post traumatic shock syndrome--more traumatic than just having a bad memory or a bad mood--they affect you all-around, even physically. I'm just guessing, I don't really know from standing in a BS's shoes, but from reading here, that's what triggers seem like to me... very serious, and not to be ignored or brushed off or dismissed as someone "not getting over it..." You know? I mean, you have a cold, you get over it. You stub your toe, you get over it. Affairs permanently change innocent lives.

Gday, don't know if this helps, but I've just read something similar to the card problem you have in the Five love Languages by Gary Chapman. On page 42, he talks about a lady who wanted her h to paint a bedroom (and wouldn't). He suggested that she take a different tack and not mention it. Instead he suggested this (I will summarise this): [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] oes your husband do anything good? (eg taking out garbage, washing car, etc.
:Yes,
:Then, I suggest two things - don't ever mention painting the bedroom again, he already knows that you want it painted. The other is that next time your husband does anything good, give him a verbal compliment. Say you appreciate it. Whenever he does anything good, give him a verbal compliment."It goes on to say that verbal flattery will not necessarily get you everything you want, but it may make your spouse more encouraged to fulfil your needs, the way you need them fulfilled.I don't know if it works, and I don't know when I'll get the chance to find out, but maybe it will work for you? Let me know if it does?Liz[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]

C,
Wow we are on the same page now. How to get rid of the "wanting". Ya me to. I so wish this had never happened.
I could wake up and say we have learned so much from that dream lets NEVER do that.
If you find out let me know.
I had a bad trigger moment yesterday. Told H about it, he was very comforting but still he doesnt "get it" as to why these things continue to bother me.
I explained it this way. When I was young if we were acting up my dad would whip out his belt. It made a very distinctive sound. We would sit at attention right away.
The first time we were at inlaws house, father in law came home from work and whipped off his belt and it sent chills through my spine. That sound will ALWAYS sit me up straight.
We laughed about how weird it was that a sound could do that.
This is the same.
Someday we can laugh about it, but it will always bring me to a place of attention,super detection mode.
Yesterday I was at work. Daycare calls says baby is sick. I try to call H because I know he is on his lunch break (he text mailed me). I cant reach him at home I cant reach him on cell phone.
Sickness in my head has this scenario: He is getting a BJ in his truck, his phone rings, he looks at caller ID says its my wife, they both laugh at me,he doesnt answer.
Reality: he is inside a store and the phne doesnt work.
I dont let the 10% of my brain that believes this crap get me too worked up ("like it used to).
I have to TELL myself the facts, he has proven himself to be trustworhty the last year,his phone is probably out of reach.
It still hurts.

I wrote a very insightful reply that got lost when I got booted off, so this one will have to do:BTDT,I think being more specific is a good idea. Instead of saying "It would be too triggery", I should have said, "I don't want to shop for wedding cards because reading them would be too painful, even hearing the word 'wedding' or talking about weddings is painful, because it is an inescapable reminder of our wedding and all the hopes and dreams I had that day that are shattered and will never come true. It would be too traumatic for me right now. I am still in deep grief for what I've lost and will never have."Liz,I've been wanting to read that book. I do know that my H prefers compliments for what he does, while I prefer compliments for who I am. So his tendency is to express appreciation for the things I do, and my tendency is to admire his character qualities (used to anyway), intellectual capabilities, physical attractiveness--things that make him who he is. And he ends up feeling like I don't appreciate anything he does, and I end up feeling discardable and replaceable because most of the things he compliments me for are things pretty much anyone could do.We've talked about this before with each other, and we'll both do better at hitting each other's target for a while, but then fall back into our own particular "language" eventually. Thanks for the reminder to do the positive reinforcement and look for opportunities to speak it in a way he will hear it.SP,Grief is definitely not a pleasant place to be, and as I was bawling my eyes out on the way home from the store that night, I came to some really very simple conclusions, but aren't those the ones we tend to do our best to avoid? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] As I was thinking about how sad I was and why, some other things occurred to me. I recognized that I want what I cannot have, plain and simple. I want a marriage with my H untouched by adultery--will NEVER happen. -OR- I want a marriage with a man who's never done this to me without having to destroy my children's family and breaking their hearts to get it--which is another impossibility. There is nothing I can do to get what I want. I simply CANNOT have it.Yet I can't stop wanting it. It is called grief. So I WAS doing the right thing about it. I was crying. I was doing what I was supposed to do. When your child dies, you cry. When your marriage dies, you cry. Very simple. I still want my son back, but I can never have that, so I found a way to live without him. I have to find a way to live without my marital wants, also.The Bible phrase "kicking against the pricks" came to mind because that's exactly what I'm doing--But I WANT it!!!! Answer: You cannot have it. Demand: But I STILL want it!!!! Answer: You will never have it.And then this reminded me of a child's temper tantrum. He kicks, screams, writhes, carries on in every way he can think of, but as long as the parent holds fast and doesn't give in, eventually the child will wear himself out and finally accept that he is not going to get what he wants and ends up getting up and finding something else to do.I also realized that my H probably wants the exact same things I want--A marriage with me untouched by adultery or a marriage with someone he's never victimized without having to destroy our children's lives. So, here we are. We just have to find something else to do because neither one of us is going to get what we want.The only way to get through grief is through the tears, and maybe when I've cried, screamed, kicked, writhed, banged my head enough and worn myself out with it, I'll finally find the strength to get up and find something else to do.

Conqueror,I lost this thread..don't get over to GQII very often.My first marriage ended because of infidelity and not being able to get over it...there are other factors..but basically that was it.This time around I was so sure I would never be in the situation again..and of course, here I am. I always figured he would be more empathetic as his first wife had cheated on him....but the only reaction that he really remembered was anger.We were talking about the Vietnam War the other day and how it changed him, what he learned, and things from then that still affected him...this was in relation to the "Debt" thread in the Recovery Forum. But it was through this that I explained and he finally understood triggers, regrets even though things are very good right now, and a whole gamut of emotions.At the beginning of our recovery some of our biggest disagreements were because he just wanted to get on with it..not delve into the whys and the wherefores of the decline of the relationship and the subsequent A. It drove me nuts..as it certainly was not the recommended path to take to insure recovery.Then, I realized that he still didn't trust me to be able to hear him. We weren't friends. So I changed..I let the A questions, the not meeting needs exactly as I wanted, not working on recovery things all go to the back burner for a while and really concentrated on making the relationship better and safer..becoming friends, no LB's at all, lot's of recreational time, in fact, a repeated and even better plan A.I'll look for the link to the old thread.Anyway after about 6-8 weeks of this, he really was anticipating being with me, going out of his way to do things together, start conversations..the whole gamut...and something came up about the A..and he treated it very matter of factly, gave me an answer..and that sort of opened the floodgates for me to ask if he felt we were ready to start discussing some of this, and working on some recovery steps. In short, he was..his reason? "I feel like you like me again. Like you'll listen to me without hating me. And as silly as it sounds, I think maybe we CAN make it better"So, maybe this sounds like a "around the [censored] to the elbow" sort of thing, or if you're a conflict avoider..like you're going back to old ways..but for us it did work.Now, we can and do, talk about anything under the sun..but it's because we have become friends again..built up (by NO LB's)safety for each other.Don't know if this will help or not,
T

C...Here's the link I was looking for...wow..that was back in August! Seems like years away now.
T
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/004294.html

Twyla,That makes a whole lot of sense. Since I had my little moment of revelation, I've been wondering about whether I should just sit him down and explain it just like I did above--that at bottom we have everything in common, i.e. wanting the same things, but impossible to have them. That we should start from that point of agreement and commonality, that we have to get through the difficult process of grieving the old and building the new, and that the only way to do that adequately is together. We're in it together, and we need to work together to get out of it.But what you're saying about kind of a renewed Plan A sounds like a better first step because even though I've been very efficient at avoiding the Big 3 LBs, I have not been as diligent with his specific LB of me being on the computer too much, especially when I could be spending time with him (which would almost exclusively be watching TV, but still, it would probably help him to feel that I liked him if I acted like I preferred being near him to being on the computer, given the choice).And the computer time also contributes to less time on DS, one of his top 5 ENs, so I've really been trying to wean myself off. I've been fearful of letting go because it has been the only place I feel safe expressing myself without being hurt or pressured, and I also rationalized that if HE would just be a safe place for me to process all this, I'd be doing it with him instead, and I'd want to be with him all the time.As usual, someone has to get the ball rolling in a different direction, and I'm the elected one again. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] So, that's how I'll proceed:

Increased effort to maintain an improved Plan A--may be time to request that he fill out the questionnaires for me
Be more open and honest about the A issues as they present themselves
Be ready to present my case for doing the hard work of recovery together when the opportunity arises

[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img][ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]

I am smiling. I am so excited, you got it!
How bout a POJA for him? For as much time that we can do something other than watch TV I will not go on the computer.
My H used to complain about me coming here - he said it made me dwell on the affair. He couldnt understand I would DWELL on the A anyway just quietly and miserably.
Good luck C.

Ack..I lost my reply!Read your post about talking with the Harleys..that expression your H used..saw it many times. What does that tell you? He obviously isn't too impressed with what he's seen so far. And I'll bet he feels like recovery is a free-for-all when it comes to condemning him for the A. Whether you intended for him to feel this way, even if you TOLD him word-for-word it wouldn't be that way..something is making him hold onto that belief.I just read the above over again and I realized that sounded like a BIG critism towards you..and I really didn't mean it to. As I said..I lived thru the "eye-rolling, we don't need MC, you just need time to get over it" phase..it depressed me, made me anxious, made me feel insignificant. But it was my fault that he had that impression..I got more depressed each time I failed to interest him, more prone to withdrawal, anger, and really didn't act like a very loving person. Again, that's when I renewed my plan A (even though there was no OW in sight) dropped pushing for relationship talks and recovery activities...went for the 15-20 hours a week of recreation, and really erased my LB's. In short, I went for the relationship...I did it HIS way.."just get over it and spend more time together" was his recovery philosophy.I did keep a copy of HNHN and Love Busters right out on the bedside table and would read and review them nightly. If he made a comment about them (and he did) I'd say something like "Hey, I want you to be happy and I want to be happy with you..I realize I need some work in certain areas and this helps me understand how to be happy." All said with a smile and a cheerful attitude.Or my favorite.."wow, I really close myself off from you when I get irritated..hey, sorry, I'll try not to do it..let me know if I do OK?"In short, I think he thought I was doing all this for myself and let him off the hook!If you want him to climb on board with the MB stuff..you've almost got to present yourself as the MB poster child..strong, self confident, happy, and willing to love. For some stubborn lugs..seeing is believing. At least, that's how mine was.And C, it was tough sometimes not to bring up my unhappiness. My needs were barely being met the way I wanted..but I did notice he seemed happier, more willing to initiate an outing, quicker to get home after work..little things. Hugs, signs of affection became more frequent. If he did catch me in a down day I would tell him.."this recovery stuff is hard..guess I need some more time to get the hang of it"..maybe thank him for some small consideration.."thanks for noticing I'm down...you good at comforting"..but NEVER did I make him feel like it was his fault. It was after about 3 weeks of this that I did ask him to look at one thing (I picked the one I knew was close to his heart..SF..and to just read about it and for us to exchange some thoughts..stuff we always wanted to do, but never really tried. He gave his standard "everything" is fine, so I said I really like to try all over body oil massage..we had a ball. And it opened up some conversation.Occasionally I'd do that with some other topic in an offhand way. "Hey this book talks about attractiveness of the spouse..think I need a push up bra and hot pants..or should I just get naked?"I don't know if you're a "you" person (ie..you never want to do anything but watch TV) but I was..and that had to go..and be replaced by "I'd love to watch some TV with you then how about we go for icecream after my butt gets sore?"Instead of "you got the wrong thing..don't you ever listen" I turned it into.."gee, I didn't make myself clear..I really wanted chocolate. Well let's just smother this stuff in strawberries and have a feast."It's all about making him feel good about you and your changes..then they are more willing to check out what has changed you..but not if it's pushed at them.You know it took at least a year after Dday until he was willing to admit the A was 18 mos long..before that it was always "I don't remember, why does it matter"..general avoidance. It's taken till now..almost 9 months of "safe" behavior for him to look at factors in his life that made the A possible.So what I'm proposing is NOT for the faint hearted..it takes some time.What do you think?
T

Yeah... I think it would be gooooood to explain. We introduced MB to some friends of ours--fairly newlyweds. Every time the H mentioned the words love buster, pretty soon those two words became love busters for the W!! She told him, "Every time you say LOVE BUSTER, it is a love buster!!" [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] She didn't want to hear it anymore! So we were thinking, NOW WHAT??!!Eventually, they filled out the questionnaires and got past it, but I think it started with them being willing to be a little bit more communicative.If you say the words you described above, I don't see how in the world your H could insist on you going through with something that affects you so negatively. Good luck!!! & HUGS too! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Twyla,
You are so right. It was the same for me. I read all the books and had a plan to make things better, he just wanted to forget it.
After about 6 months of talking about our homework I became resentful that I was the one reading and planning our recovery. I would test him by not doing it and seeing if he would. Like I would not read our nightly homework and see if he would say you didnt read tonight. YA RIGHT - he didnt.
You see I took it very personally if he didnt follow MY plan for recovery, I thought if he didnt follow my plan it meant he didnt care about our marriage or fixing it. When he said it reminded him of what a creep he was I would say no honey you made a mistake - but inside I said YA YOU CREEP glad you see it, maybe if you feel bad enough you wont ever do it again.

It took a lot of personal searching to let go of that thinking.
I really took some kind of comfort that he felt like a bad person. In my mind the worse he felt about what he did = less chance he do it again.
In reality the worse he feels about himself = more need to find comfort. I started looking at the progress husband was making and the real changes I had seen. I realized MY plan was not the only plan. Just because he wasnt following my plan for recovery (the right one of course [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] didnt mean he didnt want our marriage back.
I made him go to MB conference with me. We enjoyed it and I think it was good for H to see so many people in the same boat. I was all gung ho about the 20 week follow up internet course. I tried to make him do the homework, pouted when he didnt,you dont love me..... (rolling my eyes)
Finally I gave up and we have a comprimise of sorts. I dont dwell on recovery and we are recovering anyway, with a lot less guilt/shame for H.
You know what? I have to admit his plan is a lot more fun! I still read and like Twyla I say I read something interesting would you like to hear it? He can say no without me feeling like he just said "I hate you".
He is a lot more comforting now on my bad days. He says "I dont understand but I love you anyway".
I have regained my feeling of pride in my H. OK so he cheated BUT he had the guts to tell me and be honest and face the people he works with and tell the truth. He also even told some people at work not to make his mistake, it wasnt worth it.
I still greive the loss of the marriage I wanted. I really wanted my H to be able to tell my D when she was grown that he had always been true to me.
This experience has made me a better person though.(not that I want to do it again though)

BTDT,I'm going to try the open approach next time anything like that comes up. Have no idea how he'll respond, and at this point I'm having a hard time caring about his response. I'll do it mostly because I think I need to practice doing that. I'll never forget a talk I attended by a woman who had been raped in her own backyard. She shared her experience, mostly regarding her recovery from the rape. It amazed me when she talked about the 'positives' of the experience--who would ever think there would be any!?!She said she realized that she had been 'raped' all her life. She had spent her entire life allowing people to hurt her in big and small ways, and the trauma of the rape and people's reactions to her and her pain helped illuminate that for her. She said she finally realized that it was okay to say "ouch" when someone hurts you, that we are not obligated to bite our lip and suffer in silence so the person inflicting the pain (and others) can be insulated from it.This was in the context of being a Christian BTW, her point being that turning the other cheek doesn't require silence about the pain inflicted on the first cheek.I still struggle with the same thing that she described--remaining silent when someone hurts me instead of saying "ouch"--so I'm going to continue to work on that because the alternative is to build up resentment and that particular cache is full to overflowing here and in danger of boiling over bigtime.T and SP,You may be perfectly right that your approach is the preferred or ideal one in a case like this. But I've gotten to the point where I don't care enough to do it like that anymore. Been doing it for 11 years, been babying him, placating him, doing everything in the world to help HIM feel good about himself, been kissing his a$$ for 11 years. I'm tired, dead tired. I don't care whether he feels safe. I'm way too busy protecting myself from him to worry about his safety.Our problems did not start with his A. The A is the just the pinnacle of the disrespect, disregard and double standard he has heaped on me for 11 years. I'm just plain sick of it. I feel like I have done the miraculous to continue living with him all these months and to refrain from slapping his face when I see that look on it. I am so done.Maybe if I valued the R enough, your more catering approach would appeal to me. But my limits are already reached. I am nice to him. I don't LB him. My treatment of him is in a completely different universe than it would be if the situation were reversed. I'm already at the limits of my endurance and am doing the best I can. Doing it your way appeals to me the way a suggestion to kiss my rapist while he rapes me would. Don't care how wise it may be and how well it may "work", just don't have it in me to do it any more.I think the main reason Dr. Harley felt it was urgent was because he could tell where *I* was. I'm the one on my way to having an A, and he wants me to give my H the warning that most BS don't get. It is also true that if my H doesn't deal with his issues, he is likely to have another A, but I think Dr. Harley could sense it was more of an emergency in my case.As it turned out, I ended up drinking last night, maybe even specifically to avoid the confrontation. Drinking tends to make me "amorous", so I was trying to make out with him in the car. As usual, he wasn't very eager. And by the time we got home, he was only interested in eating and watching TV. Once again, I gave up in defeat and went to bed.Eleven years in the desert is a long time. I want to be loved. I want to be wanted. I can't help how I feel, and what I feel is valid. I have been taking care of him and his feelings for so long. I thought with the A and his apparent remorse on D-day that everything would change, that we could start over and do it right this time, that *I* would FINALLY matter, that *I* would finally be a person in this M instead of a prop.Oh well, got to get through today now. Thanks for listening.

C,
UH, I did not mean to say my approach was "the preferred" or "right" approach. What I meant to say was that MY plan was not the ONLY plan.
I had to laugh at the idea that you think I "cater" to my H. I will let him know how lucky he is, he had NO idea.
I see that you are tired. You feel defeated. Maybe you are right. I also agree that he should know how seething and bitter you feel tward him.
Whats the deal with the drinking?
From reading your posts you are unhappy and bitter but yet you dont believe in divorce, you would rather co-habitate in silence. YOu think it cannot be better between you. You think you have told him what you need multiple times and he doesnt care enough to listen.
Why is he sticking around?
Who would you like to have an affair with? Got someone in mind?
Your having a bad day I hope tomorrow is better.
Lisa

Lisa,I wasn't trying to be snotty or anything like that. I respect you and Twyla and appreciate your insight. What I was trying to say is that no matter how much I may be able to see the merits in dealing with it the way you're talking about or even any other way, I'm having a terrible time trying to summon up the energy to care about what I should do, much less do it. And I've been doing it his way for years. His way led us into hell.The honeymoon is over, and I'm facing that yes, indeed, my life is still sh** and all the A did was pile yet more sh** on top. Nothing is going to get better. I definitely need to get myself together, but now it will be in preparation for getting out.I provided him that safe place for many years after his experiences with his first two wives, and he STILL withheld from me what I needed all the way to the point of giving it to someone else. I just don't know anymore what I could possibly do that I haven't already done multiple times, and even if there is something I haven't already tried, I can't seem to find the energy to do it. At least back then I had motivation and I had hope. I still loved him then and I still had hope that he would someday love me the way I needed to be loved.I don't love him anymore, and he still won't love me the way I need to be loved. My hope is gone. Even when all was seemingly lost, I dug down and managed to eek out this last 6-1/2 months. I've been digging, but I can't find anything anymore. I'm empty. I'm used up.The drinking is my way of dealing/not dealing with being there--"their" place. That was the only alternative he offered me (taking me with him instead of ceasing to go there himself). I was offered the back seat once again. And I stupidly took it. No POJA there, just me giving in again because he "would die without it".I believe in divorce. I've just resisted it because I know what it does to kids. ALL of my motivation for the last 2-1/2 months has been about them.I believe he is sticking around because he doesn't want to face that he's a 3-time loser and admit to his family that it's his fault this time (previous 2 times he was able to blame it solely on the cheating wife). Maybe he thinks he won't be able to get another woman like me--women like the OW, maybe--but most women like me are not going to be interested in a man who has been divorced three times and cheated on his last wife.Even in my case, it took a lot of seeing his family and church family, the people he grew up with, and getting to know him in that setting to overcome his two marital failures in my eyes. If he had had his current history when I met him, I wouldn't have given him the time of day.And his biggest complaints about the OW were her demands (how many demands could a woman willing to care for him like he was a quadriplegic have?) and her lack of intelligence and inability to keep up with his sense of humor.So, when you put that together with his complaints about me, what I come up with is that he wants a woman with a Mensa-level IQ who can appreciate and laugh at his jokes while she waits on him hand and foot and wants sex constantly so that he can reject her. Plus, she has to keep the house spotless without any help from him and keep the kids quiet and never bothering him, and her job can't ever interfere with her serving of him, but she has to have a job because he's not about to wear himself out for more than 4 hours a day to make sure he makes enough to pay all the bills.Any takers? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] The scary part about me, Lisa, is that I don't have anyone in particular in mind. It wouldn't even matter. That's how far gone I am. Always in the past I managed to hang on because I had hope for my M. Now I have none and the drug of being wanted after feeling unwanted for so many years is very strong. I don't plan on having an A. If I find myself attracted to someone, I'll just file the papers and call it quits.I have no need for revenge. I just want to be wanted for a change. Before I become a senior citizen, I'd like to know what it feels like to be chosen, to be in first place, to be wanted more than anything or anyone else, even if only for a short time. I don't want to end up being an old lady who's never experienced love.

C,
Then why not plan B?
T

Plan B requires too much energy that I don't currently have. I have to finish the papers, file them, get someone to serve them, put up with him ranting and raving at me until I can get a court order to get him out. It's taking everything I've got just to get the bare minimum of my job done in order to not lose my job. I'm going to the doctor this morning, maybe she can help me find some energy somewhere.Need to get my ducks in a row first. Need to be on top of my job making as much as I can in order to survive without his income. Kind of a catch-22. Being around him makes me depressed. Being so depressed makes it hard for me to do my job. Without maximum work output, can't survive. Figure my first order of business is to increase my productivity, which will increase my income and enable me to survive financially without him.Also, for some strange reason, I still feel obligated to give him warning one last time before I lower the boom, but haven't had the energy to do that either. Tired of all the excuses and broken promises. Don't want to hear them anymore.Maybe this downward spiral has something to do with the fact that I've been bleeding for three weeks, which is why I'm going to the doctor today. Maybe I'll feel better when that is resolved.--------------------------
I'm back from the doctor, and I do feel better, maybe because I did something for myself. Talking to her probably helped the most. She upped my Wellbutrin and ordered labs. Since I hadn't eaten anything I was able to go get those done right away, and when I go back after the lab work comes back, I'll get the Pap and pelvic done. So at least I'm seeing to my health matters.I started feeling some motivation on the way home to at least get busy on my job. Nothing I've done so far has helped me feel better, so maybe focusing on that for awhile will help. I really want to get me back. I'm tired of this thing defining me and being who I am. I want to get back to who I was before he came into my life. I miss her a lot.[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]