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Here is the text of a couple of cards my H has given to me recently:<p>#1--
To my wife.....<p>Honey,
there's a very good reason
why I don't always express
how much I care about you
and appreciate all
the wonderful things you do...<p>(inside)
I'm a guy.<p>Handwritten addition:<p>I really do appreciate everything you do and everything we are together. I love you.<p>#2--
A Loving Message For My Wife<p>"These I Can Promise"<p>I cannot promise you a life of sunshine,
I cannot promise you riches, wealth, or gold,
I cannot promise you an easy pathway
That leads away from change or growing old.<p>But I can promise all my heart's devotion,
A smile to chase away your tears of sorrow,
A love that's ever true and ever growing,
A hand to hold in yours through each tomorrow...<p>Two loving arms to shelter and protect you,
The knowledge that I need you more than ever,
And all the happiness that love can give you
As, hand in hand, we walk through life together.<p>With All My Love (each of these words he doubly underlined before he signed his name underneath them)<p>My reaction:<p>Mostly I feel sad and helpless. My H has always given me cards like this. He is very good at the romantic stuff when he flips that switch and is in that mode. And I assume he is trying to send me a clear message with these cards, and he probably means it. But I feel helpless at the receiving end I guess because no matter how much he may mean it, I can't bank on words or gestures like that anymore.<p>And it has been a constant theme of the M where he will ignore meeting the needs I expressly request his help with (currently the A issues) and does a bunch of nice things instead. When this doesn't satisfy me, he usually ends up angry because I "don't appreciate what he does for me". I've tried to explain repeatedly that no amount of meeting my need for affection will compensate for neglecting my other most important needs.<p>I've used his own needs as examples. I've also used the analogy of the power company and the water company--that while I'm sure the power company would love getting all kinds of extra money, if you fail to pay the water company, the water's going to get turned off no matter how much extra $ you lavished on the power company.<p>Guess I feel sad that it doesn't have the effect he is probably hoping it will have. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

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Since your H has trouble actually speaking how he feels (as judging by some of your previous posts), I think it's great that he is taking the time to give you those cards.<p>However, I can understand how they just don't mean anything to you anymore, especially if you may have received some during his A.<p>I cannot offer much advice for you, as I'm going through similar problems with my H, trying to get him to meet my needs. But all I can figure, is that your H may need constant reminders of what it is that you really want and need from him. Maybe make up a list of SPECIFICS he can carry in his wallet? I'd like to think that EVENTUALLY it's gotta come as 2nd nature to them, right? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>One of the things my H loves to do is rent and watch movies. He thinks he is doing a wonderful thing to call me and ask what movie it is I would like to see. I really couldn't care less about watching many movies. What I would rather see him do with the money he would put towards my new release is to buy me a card or some flowers or something DIFFERENT.<p>One of the things my H and I are going to try again is to fill out the EN questionnaires for each other, and consider them as our Marriage Bibles right now. Hopefully that will work.<p>I really do like your power vs water equation!! That's brilliant!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Some analogies are better than others, and I think yours is in the top 10 for explaining EN's being met!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (well, maybe it's #1 on account that I cannot think of any others that I've read!!! LOL).<p>Karen

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Conquerer, <p>I remember posting about being angry that my xws would e-mail me beautiful letters, but never say that stuff to my face. I believe it was Zorweb who suggested that I appreciate the fact that he is writing it and encourage more of it instead of telling him not to do it at all. It's my way or no way at all? Since I changed the way that I looked at it, my negativity about it has completely gone away. It worked for me, but maybe not for you, and that's ok.<p>Can you tell him that although you know that he is trying to meet a need of yours, he's really not depositing many points into the account, BUT ________ would deposit so many more. A handwritten note, (not a Hallmark), a backrub, a clean kitchen, a day set aside to talk about affair issues? This is not a case of "treat others as *you* wish to be treated." It's "treat other's as *they* wish to be treated."<p>We filled out the EN questionaires back in October. To be honest, I forgot what my top 5 were and certainly didn't recall xws's top 5. I went thru them again and wrote down his top 5 and a list of specifics to put in my wallet so that I can review it often. I will do the same for my xws when I find mine. I knew that affection was important to him, but I wasn't doing and saying the things that he said were important to him. I find that if I am meeting his needs, he tries very hard to meet mine.<p>I liked your analogy too! Good one!<p>take care,
tinlizzy

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Hello, For hte sake of conversation my name will be Mark.Recently our marriage problems have really surfaced.I tried to aproach my wife with the emotional needs questionaire --- but she said"she could'nt answer the questions as they were laid-out.
I know, that I screwed-up without realizing it; but its hard to satisfy unspecified needs.
Can anyone offer suggestions on how to find out what needs, or how to get her to fill out the E.M. questionaire.<p> All suggestions are helpful !!

Thank you Mark.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hope4us2:
<strong> Can anyone offer suggestions on how to find out what needs, or how to get her to fill out the E.M. questionaire</strong><hr></blockquote><p>When you do things for your W, ask her how she feels about it. Ask her what she would like you to do. Choose all sorts of areas to ask her these questions. During sex, during dinner, offer to do dinner and/or laundry (if you don't already), then ask her if she liked it or not. Offer her a massage. Then ask her how it makes her feel. Try to use open ended questions (those are questions that cannot be answered with either a yes or no response).<p>And most importantly, REMEMBER what she's told you! More likely than not, your W has already hinted to you what it is she needs from you. Many of those hints are 'between the lines', as the saying goes. Now would be a good time for you to look back at previous situations (in my case, it was during arguments), and remember what she wanted. (My H used to always talk about how one couple we knew would always give each other quick kisses every now and then, even in front of company. What he REALLY wanted me to know was that he needed that behaviour from ME!!!).<p>Hope this helps some. And perhaps once your W is able to open up to you more (which will probably happen as you fulfil her needs more), she will fill out the EN questionnaires with you.<p>Karen

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I do always thank him for expressions like these and tell him how much I appreciate them, but in the past we have had many, many conversations and arguments about each other's needs, and I have explained the Harley model to him since before we were married--exactly as you stated tinlizzy--that the Golden Rule does not apply because me doing unto him what I want done unto me will not necessarily work and vice versa because we most likely have very different needs. At one point about halfway through the M we even read HNHN together! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So, I know he has the information he needs to know and understand the concept. He would probably fill out the questionnaires if I asked him to, but I haven't so far because I'm stuck on the very first step from SAA: Reveal information about the A. That need is so high and out-trumps all other needs right now, so I'm afraid to distract him with the "normal" ENs on the questionnaire. But maybe I should go ahead with the questionnaires and capitalize and underline and highlight in the H&O section a comment about my need to know and process all the A stuff. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Flashing lights all around that particular item might be helpful as well. I just don't know how to get through to him on this single issue. I want the A to be out in the open and talked about. I'd rather talk to him about it than all the time I spend on here talking about it. I guess I just need to say all that to him yet AGAIN and see what happens.

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Hmmm... I hear what you are saying it's like you are stuck at this one point and until your H is able to help you move out of that place, no amount of his own attempts will work. Especially after he knows what you need to get out of the rut. So basically is he just being stubborn? Trying to just sweep everything under the rug? Can't face the truth? Trying to protect you?????? He has some kind of reason. Maybe he is just downright afraid.<p>Maybe there IS no solution to this??? I just hope he realizes that he is pushing you further and further into a state of withdrawal the more he refuses to open up!!!<p>It must be so hard for you not to LB, but it sounds like you guys are at a standstill and he knows why but won't budge. Like he is punishing you or something? Then he tries to turn it around to make you look like a bad guy? Is this more of a sort of power struggle between you two??? I don't know Conqueror but if you can get your man to talk when he doesn't want to then you WILL be MORE than a conqueror!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] When you discover the secret--let me know!!<p>Might just be one of those situations that nothing will penetrate except prayer, prayer, and more prayer...

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I think it's fear. I think he is running as fast as he can from facing himself and what he did. He's trying to do penance in the form that is most comfortable to him, maybe thinking that if he does what he should have done before the A, then all will be well, and he can pretend the A didn't happen and that somehow I'll forget, too, maybe. But none of that will have any effect until after the A is dealt with. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

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dear conqueroe- if you lived in nj i would ask if we were married to the same man

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by nikko:
<strong>dear conqueroe- if you lived in nj i would ask if we were married to the same man</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Now, wouldn't that be a new twist, and wouldn't we make a whole bunch of $ selling our story? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

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Hi C,
Me again. I havent been coming here much lately so had to really search for your posting.<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: sadprincess ]</p>

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SP,<p>Is that what it is? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I thought I was just a garden-variety conflict avoider. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The shirt's gone. I love having sex with him (one of the attractions of staying in the M); I just don't like the guest he imposed upon me that detracts from my emotional connection to him during sex. And I definitely have to take exception to the assertion that I think I hurt more than anyone else. Never felt that way. Know better than that. I can see that every day on here.<p>I hope I haven't caused anyone to feel that I am minimizing their pain in comparison to mine. If so, I apologize. The only comparison I remember making is to my own pain when I went through this during my first M. It never even occurred to me that that would happen in that M. I thought I was smarter this time around because I knew it could happen and thought I had done everything I could to ensure that it wouldn't.<p>Maybe it doesn't actually hurt worse this time, but it does hurt differently because the circumstances are so different. I thought I had some answers, but I didn't. I feel more constrained this time. I know too much. I know what divorce is like. The choices are harder.<p>Anyway, that's within my context. I sure wouldn't apply it to anyone else's.<p>SP, I know you don't have any evil intent, and I'll try to process it constructively.<p>On the up side, I am speaking up more. I told him I couldn't watch that movie the other night. Tonight he wanted me to go shopping for a wedding present and card for his relative, and I said I didn't want to. He asked me why. I told him it would be too triggery. He stared at me for awhile, then rolled his eyes and mumbled, "I don't get it." as he turned back around to watch TV. I said, "Yes, I know. That's part of the problem."<p>Unfortunately, the kids were around, so I couldn't pursue it further at that time. But I am cracking the door open instead of running away. May be slow, but I think I'm going in the right direction, and if not, I can count on you to let me know, right? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

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Yes, I think it is good (& healthy) for you to be speaking your mind like you have been doing. Perhaps it will help your H to "get it" before it's too late. I think that is a very good step. Then, you won't be seething in resentment all the time for doing things you don't really want to do. Why torture yourself? You know?<p>Maybe the next step is to calmly sit down and in a nice way, explain to your H what a "trigger" is and how it affects you. That word is spoken around here often and MBers all know what it means, but maybe he really needs to understand how a trigger can throw you back 2 steps when you have made one step forward in getting past the past.

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Wow, what a healthy post [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
I am glad you are speaking up also.
I think it is the norm rather than the exception for the WS to not "get it". We recently got a new(for us) car one of the cars we looked at was same kind as OW, I said I was glad we didnt get it. He just shook his head and said "really?"
In the beginning when he would say "get over it" I would say "I know honey you would have been over it by now" uh did I ever tell you Im sarcastic?
It did seem to help when I told him it seemed to be the norm here to take about 2 years to get over this. I guess it gave him a timeframe, a light at the end of the tunnel.
I dont know if you can count on me to hound you anymore, I really have cut down on my MB time. I am thinking of just posting in recovery now. You know you are welcome to use my email address anytime you like.
I know you didnt minimize anyones pain, you have been a true friend to many people here. You give great advice to others and really care.
I have had a really hard time with feeling like a failure because I chose a cheater, again! What am I a moron? What is wrong with me that guys think they can do this to me? I am certainly not a wimp oh maybe thats it I am too aggressive.....yadayada
I worry that you hold on to your secret bitterness. You smile and put on your normal face so of course he thinks whatever worked before will work again. I am glad your working on being more open.
I really wish the best for you.
Lisa

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BTDT,<p>I was going to say he knows what a trigger is, but all I really "know" is that I explained to him several times what it is and how it is like having the shock and trauma of discovery all over again. Of course, back then I was getting triggers AND more discoveries, so who knows how much he may or may not have retained--maybe nothing.<p>SP,<p>I'm still trying to figure out how to share my painful feelings with someone who offers no comfort. Every time it happened, I withdrew further and further. It just multiplies it for me. I hate to lose what functionality I currently have by melting down again. Most of the time I just wish this wasn't my life. Still trying to let go and face reality that it is and that there's not a damn thing I can do about it. Lot of grief to go through that I want what I can never have. Don't know how to get rid of the wanting. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

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Maybe you can come up with some sort of really graphic explanation without mentioning the word that will grab his attention. I think of triggers like post traumatic shock syndrome--more traumatic than just having a bad memory or a bad mood--they affect you all-around, even physically. I'm just guessing, I don't really know from standing in a BS's shoes, but from reading here, that's what triggers seem like to me... very serious, and not to be ignored or brushed off or dismissed as someone "not getting over it..." You know? I mean, you have a cold, you get over it. You stub your toe, you get over it. Affairs permanently change innocent lives.

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Gday, don't know if this helps, but I've just read something similar to the card problem you have in the Five love Languages by Gary Chapman. On page 42, he talks about a lady who wanted her h to paint a bedroom (and wouldn't). He suggested that she take a different tack and not mention it. Instead he suggested this (I will summarise this):<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] oes your husband do anything good? (eg taking out garbage, washing car, etc.
:Yes,
:Then, I suggest two things - don't ever mention painting the bedroom again, he already knows that you want it painted. The other is that next time your husband does anything good, give him a verbal compliment. Say you appreciate it. Whenever he does anything good, give him a verbal compliment."<p>It goes on to say that verbal flattery will not necessarily get you everything you want, but it may make your spouse more encouraged to fulfil your needs, the way you need them fulfilled.<p>I don't know if it works, and I don't know when I'll get the chance to find out, but maybe it will work for you? Let me know if it does?<p>Liz<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</p>

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C,
Wow we are on the same page now. How to get rid of the "wanting". Ya me to. I so wish this had never happened.
I could wake up and say we have learned so much from that dream lets NEVER do that.
If you find out let me know.
I had a bad trigger moment yesterday. Told H about it, he was very comforting but still he doesnt "get it" as to why these things continue to bother me.
I explained it this way. When I was young if we were acting up my dad would whip out his belt. It made a very distinctive sound. We would sit at attention right away.
The first time we were at inlaws house, father in law came home from work and whipped off his belt and it sent chills through my spine. That sound will ALWAYS sit me up straight.
We laughed about how weird it was that a sound could do that.
This is the same.
Someday we can laugh about it, but it will always bring me to a place of attention,super detection mode.
Yesterday I was at work. Daycare calls says baby is sick. I try to call H because I know he is on his lunch break (he text mailed me). I cant reach him at home I cant reach him on cell phone.
Sickness in my head has this scenario: He is getting a BJ in his truck, his phone rings, he looks at caller ID says its my wife, they both laugh at me,he doesnt answer.
Reality: he is inside a store and the phne doesnt work.
I dont let the 10% of my brain that believes this crap get me too worked up ("like it used to).
I have to TELL myself the facts, he has proven himself to be trustworhty the last year,his phone is probably out of reach.
It still hurts.

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I wrote a very insightful reply that got lost when I got booted off, so this one will have to do:<p>BTDT,<p>I think being more specific is a good idea. Instead of saying "It would be too triggery", I should have said, "I don't want to shop for wedding cards because reading them would be too painful, even hearing the word 'wedding' or talking about weddings is painful, because it is an inescapable reminder of our wedding and all the hopes and dreams I had that day that are shattered and will never come true. It would be too traumatic for me right now. I am still in deep grief for what I've lost and will never have."<p>Liz,<p>I've been wanting to read that book. I do know that my H prefers compliments for what he does, while I prefer compliments for who I am. So his tendency is to express appreciation for the things I do, and my tendency is to admire his character qualities (used to anyway), intellectual capabilities, physical attractiveness--things that make him who he is. And he ends up feeling like I don't appreciate anything he does, and I end up feeling discardable and replaceable because most of the things he compliments me for are things pretty much anyone could do.<p>We've talked about this before with each other, and we'll both do better at hitting each other's target for a while, but then fall back into our own particular "language" eventually. Thanks for the reminder to do the positive reinforcement and look for opportunities to speak it in a way he will hear it.<p>SP,<p>Grief is definitely not a pleasant place to be, and as I was bawling my eyes out on the way home from the store that night, I came to some really very simple conclusions, but aren't those the ones we tend to do our best to avoid? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As I was thinking about how sad I was and why, some other things occurred to me. I recognized that I want what I cannot have, plain and simple. I want a marriage with my H untouched by adultery--will NEVER happen. -OR- I want a marriage with a man who's never done this to me without having to destroy my children's family and breaking their hearts to get it--which is another impossibility. There is nothing I can do to get what I want. I simply CANNOT have it.<p>Yet I can't stop wanting it. It is called grief. So I WAS doing the right thing about it. I was crying. I was doing what I was supposed to do. When your child dies, you cry. When your marriage dies, you cry. Very simple. I still want my son back, but I can never have that, so I found a way to live without him. I have to find a way to live without my marital wants, also.<p>The Bible phrase "kicking against the pricks" came to mind because that's exactly what I'm doing--But I WANT it!!!! Answer: You cannot have it. Demand: But I STILL want it!!!! Answer: You will never have it.<p>And then this reminded me of a child's temper tantrum. He kicks, screams, writhes, carries on in every way he can think of, but as long as the parent holds fast and doesn't give in, eventually the child will wear himself out and finally accept that he is not going to get what he wants and ends up getting up and finding something else to do.<p>I also realized that my H probably wants the exact same things I want--A marriage with me untouched by adultery or a marriage with someone he's never victimized without having to destroy our children's lives. So, here we are. We just have to find something else to do because neither one of us is going to get what we want.<p>The only way to get through grief is through the tears, and maybe when I've cried, screamed, kicked, writhed, banged my head enough and worn myself out with it, I'll finally find the strength to get up and find something else to do.

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Conqueror,<p>I lost this thread..don't get over to GQII very often.<p>My first marriage ended because of infidelity and not being able to get over it...there are other factors..but basically that was it.<p>This time around I was so sure I would never be in the situation again..and of course, here I am. I always figured he would be more empathetic as his first wife had cheated on him....but the only reaction that he really remembered was anger.<p>We were talking about the Vietnam War the other day and how it changed him, what he learned, and things from then that still affected him...this was in relation to the "Debt" thread in the Recovery Forum. But it was through this that I explained and he finally understood triggers, regrets even though things are very good right now, and a whole gamut of emotions.<p>At the beginning of our recovery some of our biggest disagreements were because he just wanted to get on with it..not delve into the whys and the wherefores of the decline of the relationship and the subsequent A. It drove me nuts..as it certainly was not the recommended path to take to insure recovery.<p>Then, I realized that he still didn't trust me to be able to hear him. We weren't friends. <p>So I changed..I let the A questions, the not meeting needs exactly as I wanted, not working on recovery things all go to the back burner for a while and really concentrated on making the relationship better and safer..becoming friends, no LB's at all, lot's of recreational time, in fact, a repeated and even better plan A.<p>I'll look for the link to the old thread.<p>Anyway after about 6-8 weeks of this, he really was anticipating being with me, going out of his way to do things together, start conversations..the whole gamut...and something came up about the A..and he treated it very matter of factly, gave me an answer..and that sort of opened the floodgates for me to ask if he felt we were ready to start discussing some of this, and working on some recovery steps. In short, he was..his reason? "I feel like you like me again. Like you'll listen to me without hating me. And as silly as it sounds, I think maybe we CAN make it better"<p>So, maybe this sounds like a "around the [censored] to the elbow" sort of thing, or if you're a conflict avoider..like you're going back to old ways..but for us it did work.<p>Now, we can and do, talk about anything under the sun..but it's because we have become friends again..built up (by NO LB's)safety for each other.<p>Don't know if this will help or not,
T

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