Big setback !! - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I don’t know if I can continue. WW has admitted to contact with OM again. WW never tells me right after contact is made… she will lie to me for a couple of weeks then tell me. So far WW and OM have attempted to end A four times now. The following are the reasons IM told they ended the A.
1. (This was before I found Out) OM ended it because it was just too hard on both of them and OM wanted WW to be Happy.
2. (this was just after I found out while WW left home to straighten her head out for 1 week) WW and OM after reading the MB board decided that WW should try to make M work. WW said to me “I will never be happy unless I can say I tried to make M work”
3. WW said OM called her because he heard she wasn’t doing so well. Om was just seeing if WW was OK.
4. (today) WW admitted they have contacted each other. This time WW says OM wanted to remove himself from all of this and that he did not want to have anything to do with WWs possible D. Is this a joke or what… OM has everything to do with our possible D whether he is in the picture or NOT!!WW has lied to me so many times. WW will look me in the eyes and say, “I want to work on M”. Meanwhile she continues contact with OM. This is unacceptable and inexcusable. I feel she is using what she has read on this board to validate her actions. Like contacting OM is to be expected so that must make it OK. It is NOT OK! How can I ever trust anything she ever says? I understand that I cannot control anything WW does. But I can control what I do. WW has been reading the same books and the same board I have. She has been given a valuable learning tool to work on M. Instead I feel she has used this tool to get away with as much as she can. I have been working on my plan A. I have done a better job of working on myself. I have been going to the gym and taking better care of myself. I personally feel pretty good, I can’t say I feel good about my M. WW also says she does not want to wear her wedding ring. WW says she is just not ready to. We would both argue and take them off so WW says “I don’t want to put the ring on until I know things are better”. I say “you told me you want to work on M than you should be willing to wear the ring”. The more I keep writing the more I feel like a fool. I feel like WW is with me by default because OM wants to remove himself (yea right… Like he has WW best interests in mind). I feel that even if we do try to make the M work that it will only take a phone call to/from OM to send it down the tubes again. How can I live with that over my head all the time? I would be walking on eggshells forever. I don’t foresee me feeling secure or trusting for a long time. WW says she can not live like this (not being trusted) for long. Her actions validate mine. I have absolutely no reason to trust her. I can’t write anymore I have to go to work. Any comments or support would be appreciated.

Nothing that you have described so far sounds like anything out of the ordinary in this type of situation. I went through the entire set of emotions, thoughts and actions you just described.I'm telling you RIGHT NOW...if you aren't willing to put aside the poor me attitude and control issues...and if you are planning on QUITTING and making a call for sympathy on this board or with your buddies or whomever each time a bump in the road comes...well, might as well quit right now then. Your attitude and actions right now will lead your situation to a bitter end...notice I said YOUR actions and attitude not hers. She is barely post affair...she's still going through withdrawl and is still pulling out of fantasy land. HER attitude and actions thusfar are pretty normal. I will ask again...have you READ any of the stuff on this site. Have you read any of the other posters stories? You have a real chance...but you've GOT to get a grip.

Hope4future, Yes I have read this board and so has WW. You might ask if she has read anything here!

Mr. Funk,
I'm glad you posted. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I can tell from your post that you are working on yourself and reading. Good! Keep up the good work.Now, you've got to decide if you're in this or not. It CAN NOT be fixed overnight - or even perhaps over a few weeks or months.Read Cali's update. Here's a link.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017493What's 6 months - or 12 months - out of your life? What about 2 years? Would you be willing to commit to patience, prayer, and focusing on yourself for that long? It may not take 2 years, but can you at least commit to 6 months, and then decide your next step? Here's what we would like to see. It's perfectly ok for you to come here for support - especially when you are feeling hopeless. But here's what we would like to see from you:Instead of saying "I don’t know if I can continue. "Say, "Please help me continue. I want to, but it's so hard. How do I do it?"A fairly new MB'er I think you should watch closely is Spacecase. His W says she wants to work on the M, but her EA continues. He posted some wonderful advice from Steve Harley last nite on his big thread. Look on Page 11 for his counseling summary. That's worth about $165. You should read it and send Spacecase a few bucks [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . Here's a link.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017108&p=11We're here for ya. We all remember the frustrations you are feeling. Let time, patience, prayer, and self-focus become your best friends right now, k?Keep posting... and reading. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img][ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]

Oh good....a response filled with insinuations of more blame. I wish I had Faiths patience with the impatient...but I do not. I don't do well with overbearing, demanding, impatient, blaming control mongers. Luckily there are more here who can understand your feelings. Heck, I can understand your feelings...I just react badly to the way you lash them out. Sorry I can't be of more help to you.Oh, and by READING...I meant COMPREHENDING. Without comprehension...the reading is worthless.

hope4,
WHat's great about this board is the wonderful mix of personalities!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Your answers are powerful! THey are absolutely CORRECT! When I read your response to him, I said to myself, "yeah! Go hope4!! You're right!!" Some people respond to a tough approach, and some to empathetic approaches, but I think the best help is a good balance of both! I bet funkedup will step back and appreciate VERY MUCH your advice, AND it's delivery, when he really stops to think about it. All advice given here is out of love and concern. Some of it is like medicine and hard to swallow. I prefer to add a little sugar to help the medicine go down. Soemtimes, too much sugar I suppose [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] .Faith1

Hope4future, I know you and WW talk outside of this board... Just remember there are two sides to every story. you know the rest.

Mr. Funk,
Did you read my reply? Did that make sense? I worked hard on those links, now. Make me feel good and click on them. k?Faith1 [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] And, actually there's 3 sides to every story. His side, her side, and the truth [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img][ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]

Faith...I agree completely, and I am so glad that when I just can't even muster the sugar...there are others that can! I grew up without female influence in my life, so I figure that's where the lack of sugar comes from. My dad was a NO SYMPATHY kind of guy. BUCK UP LITTLE CAMPER would have been a good motto for us, lol. When you fell it was...well...I don't think you broke the sidewalk. :-PMr. Funk...yes I have exchanged a few emails with your wife. I think she was taken with the fact that I can see through your words and that I can relate to where she's at emotionally. As a matter of fact I was SHOCKED at how kindly she spoke of you and the good things she said you'd been doing. I expected that the way you storm around here ranting, accusing and QUITTING all the time was the way you acted around her as well. Evidently not because from everything I've heard she still wants to keep you. My communications with her have been to try to help bring her from this fog...to try to help her on the path she knows is right. If there is anything I learned over the last 2 years that might turn any lights on in her head and make this any easier for her, that's what I'm going to try to do. My reaction to your current state is no different than it was before I was communicating with your wife via email...I still think it's an ISSUE that YOU need to get help for, and I still feel that if you don't figure out a better way to deal with these emotions...you might just push her completely away.Realize this...although you did not LIKE what she told you...she did tell you. She opened up her pain to you and it sounds like you turned it around to be all about your pain. You are BOTH in pain right now...you may not feel like she's entitled to hers...but she's got it anyway. You two could HELP EACH OTHER through it...or you can both deal with it yourselves and grow further apart.You can't POSSIBLY have been doing this plan A thing for very long. Working on yourself and your issues takes longer than a few weeks. I still see you blaming, pushing, demanding...none of these are part of plan A. Read again, and again if you have to, and one more time. It's more than just understanding the words...you've got to do it in ACTION as well. That means more than just doing the right thing once, or twice, or for a week or two...it means every day for MONTHS. Cali is a PERFECT example. READ HER STORY!! LISTEN, LEARN![ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: hope4future ]

funkedup,You have been taking quite a beating here haven't you?? H4F, seems to have decided that venting here is not really a good thing. I disagree with her on this point. It is best to vent here. The problem is that your W reads this site as well. So for you this is not a safe place to vent. I would strongly suggest that you find a counselor or clergy to vent to.As for the plan A you have done. I cannot determine if it is a good one or not, but I would recommend doing it for abit longer. If you find that your W continues to contact OM and continues to lie to you, then it is time for Plan B. People seem to think that six months of Plan A is right. There is not set time for plan A. It should be done for as long as you can which means as long as you can hold off with the LB's. If you find you cannot, then Plan B is the next stop.Your feelings are normal. Being lied to is about the worst thing a WS can do, and your W is doing it. She is cheating on you, has cheated on you, has lied to you, and basically broken most of her marriage vows. You have a right to be mad, hurt, angry, and be very very confused.But, during your plan A you need to examine all of the other vows you took when marrying and see which ones of those you broke. Yes, fidelity is the ONE reason the bible allows for divorce, but the other vows where not given a lesser value.I think there is one thing you need to realize and that is your marriage is NOT in recovery. Your W has lied about that as well. Since it is not in recovery, there is no reason to expect anything else than what you are getting from her. In that sense, the message is deal with it, or go to Plan B.You cannot make her/help her/convince her/guilt her into ending this affair. It is HER failure and she must deal with it. IF she does ever deal with it, and seeks an honest attempt at rebuilding the marriage, then you both most deal with what happened in your marriage before the affair. Until then, you might as well address your part in the marriage, because you have nothing else to do. BELIEVE ME YOU HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I know you would like to get some semblence of control back into your life. I would guess that you are doing anything and everything to try and get that back. Most BS's do that. It is normal. But the message I am sending to you, is that control is futile. You have none, so work on yourself. You are the only part of your life you have control over.Sadly, that is the way it is. THe WS's don't see this, nor do they feel what you are going through. I doubt that there are crueler creatures on this planet than a WS in full affair. Frankly, they aren't interested and could care less. They couldn't do what they are doing if they did.Bottom line, your marriage is over. The only thing left to determine is if in the future you can rebuild it or it is simply gone. As Harley points out that decision is something for the both of you to POJA. Interesting isn't it a POJA to get a divorce or rebuild. But, that is because you don't have any control. She has made her decisions and frankly they are lousy, but they are her's not yours.I hope that this helps you see things a bit clearer. My suggestion is to post here to try and help others. You cannot help your marriage one bit right now. You can only plan A or go to Plan B. Life is simple isn't it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Hang in there Funkedup changes are coming and the situation will be resolved.God Bless,JL

JL...my responses to Mr. Funk are no different than I would give to a close friend. If I had a friend that kept coming to me trying to pull me into their pity party I would tell them the same...DO something about it. Plan A or Plan B are BOTH about DOING...not just venting. A vent is fine if that's what it is....but often a vent turns into a search for validations of actions. Does Mr Funk have a right to feel the way he feels...ABSOLUTELY...but that doesn't justify dumping and running. If he can't handle doing the WORK then get a divorce. Otherwise, strap in and be ready for a bumpy ride, cause it's not an easy journey down recovery road. And no, I'm sure being a former WS I don't fully understand what he's going through...the same can be said about betrayed spouses.You have your way of providing help and advice and I have mine. "You have been taking quite a beating here haven't you?? H4F, seems to have decided that venting here is not really a good thing. I disagree with her on this point. It is best to vent here." I'll thank you not to put words into my mouth. I was neither beating up on poor helpless Mr Funk (nothing like feeding into his pity party if you ask me), nor was I suggesting he not vent here. I was just disagreeing with his thoughts. Isn't that WHY he vents here...to hear thoughts? He can disagree with mine all he wants...as can you...that doesn't make them any less valid. I see plan A and plan B twisted all the time...and I also see people who put forth REAL effort and use the plans how they are suggested. I see twisting here and I don't think I'm doing ANYONE a disservice by calling him on it. Or should I just pat him on the back and give him a poor baby so he can continue in his actions and watch him flush his marriage down the toilet? Ahhh well...you have your way I have mine. That's the thing about PUBLIC message boards...it brings in all the riff raff. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

JL thank you for the post. Yes I feel is H4F is beating up on me pretty bad. Being that H4F is an adulteress herself I don’t expect I get much empathy from her. This morning’s post was a vent and I was also looking for validation. What's wrong with that? I don’t want to tell my friends/family that WW is still contacting OM. So this board is the only place I had to vent this morning. If I tell my friends they will just not understand why IM still with her. I don’t want to look like a bigger [censored] than I already do. So I turn to the board to vent only to get beat up. I have an appointment with the MC tonight; hopefully I will feel better afterwards. The validation I was looking for is. Am I right in feeling this way? Is this acceptable behavior by WW? Contrary to what H4F said I don’t feel I have a poor me attitude. I did not post to have a pity party for myself.

funkedup,ahem....<<hand on hip, stomping foot>>Did I say anything to help you? Did those links help you?You also asked:
Am I right in feeling this way? It's pretty normal. But right? Not too sure about that. We have been suggesting attitudes for you to strive for. We've all been there. We wouldn't help you try to see a different attitude, if we didn't believe it was possible - from experience. Is this acceptable behavior by WW? No. It's not. Can you accept it for a short time while SHE decided to make changes in herself? I bet you can. Has all of your behavior been acceptable? Nope. That's the point we're trying to help you with.

H4F,It would seem your own words invalidate what you said to me in your second paragraph. I didn't attack you, but I observed that your approach and advice seemed fairly mean spirited, perhaps because of your extra knowledge from communicating with his W. I don't know.I have no ax to grind with you but I will disagree with you anytime I please.I will tell you this, whether funkedup listens to you or I, you will very likely get to watch his marriage go down the tubes because of his W's actions. He cannot save this marriage, she can.He can do plan A until he is blue in the face and he should, but it is not designed to change her mind. She has full control of this. As for patting him on the back, well sometimes people do need it, even WS's that come here after doing some amazingly thoughtless and painful things need a pat on the back and some encouragement.It is interesting that you accuse me of this, since most of the complaints about me are about the fact that I am too blunt. I do tend to be a fact and bottom line type of person, but it comes from many years of dealing with people and life.By the way, next time read my words carefully. I said " H4F seems..." I didn't say I "knew" what you intended.So do what you feel is best with regard to funkedup, no one said you couldn't. I just didn't care for the tone, so I offered my own advice. That is permitted isn't it???God Bless,JL

JL "I will tell you this, whether funkedup listens to you or I, you will very likely get to watch his marriage go down the tubes because of his W's actions. He cannot save this marriage, she can."Doesn't Plan A specifically deal with this? Doesn't it in fact contradict exactly what you just said? Or maybe in fact I don't have any idea of what plan A is really about? Feel free to clarify it for me because it's entirely possible I'm taking a different "read" on it. As far as his wifes "actions"...well, she could be lying to me too, but I see a woman trying to pull herself out a mess she got herself into. I don't see her actively seeking to keep lying and decieving and I see her attempt to open up and be honest shot down because it hurt. But then I've been there before, so yes, I am probly somewhat biased.Mr Funk, I will honestly offer an apology to you...I had some time away today and I do feel like I kind of "ripped" you. As I said before in posts to you, I reallllllly don't respond well to the kind of "attitude" that I read in your posts. But...you certainly ARE entitled to your feels and thoughts, and you're right...where better to put them than here instead of involving family and friends whom you have to face every day. It's not my intention nor my interest to "side" with either of you. I truly hope to help your wife out of her "fog". I just think you could do more to assist in that as well. That, of course, is your decision/choice to make. As far as being an adultress...well, touche...and low blow. Hope you feel better :-)Faith...well I checked out the links and you are so right...very good information! Thanks for your efforts!!

H4F,I am not sure where we diverge on Plan A. So let just say what I know from reading both here and the books. Then we'll see if we see plan A differently.Plan A has several parts, all of them focused on the BS. None of them are specifically targeted to WS nor to get the WS to get out of the affair. Harley claims the affairs must die of their own and they usually do. After it is over, then the effects of the plan A MAY bring the WS back to the marriage.The idea is to eliminate LB's, examine where one has failed to meet the WS's needs (as best as can be determined), create an atmosphere that is safe for the WS to back to (the no LB's being a big part there).Now typically, the WS doesn't seem to notice the Plan A. Their focus is on the OP. However, they do seem to notice a drop in LB's. Some react positively, others react very negatively: start arguements, pull further away, ect. I presume this is because they don't want to be confused with the fact that their marriage may work.But, the application of these aspects of plan A is done without expectation that the WS will respond in a positive manner. In short, Harley is saying the WS must end the affair, and while you are waiting around why not do something useful. Stop the LB's, see if you can work on Needs if they will let you meet them, often the WS won't, and basically don't rock the boat, hence the feeling like a doormat syndrom. The idea is as you know that the marriage condition was the product of both the WS and BS, so the BS might as well do something useful: work on themselves.One continues this until they just cannot resist LB's, then it is time for the Plan B. Again, not to force the WS into something but rather to PROTECT what love is left and minimize the pain. The subtle thing in Plan B is that it should be done BEFORE one is ready to throw the towel in. It is hard to rebuild a marriage if BOTH parties are out of love with each other.Now granted in some cases Plan A and Plan B have the secondary effect that the WS sees the BS in a different light, while still in the affair. But the posts here don't indicate that is a very common occurance.So Plan A is really about funkedup, Not Mrs Funkedup. She has her own deamons do deal with.Are our views different?God Bless,JL

“None of them are specifically targeted to WS nor to get the WS to get out of the affair. Harley claims the affairs must die of their own and they usually do.” That’s where I was not quite understanding, but it does make more sense now. From what I had read (but mostly from posters) I understood it to be somewhat about the WS as well…to give them a reason to get out of the affair…to show them “proof”, if you will, that the BS is willing and able to make changes in themselves…and to offer a “safe” environment (no LB’s). I know as a FWS I used the LB’s as PROOF that my reasons for leaving were valid. Everything about my H that I didn’t like (the poor me attitude, selfishness, immaturity) were only accentuated when he found out about my feelings for the OM (EA at the time). Of course, I was doing every single one of those things myself…but I felt I’d been the “good” one in the marriage, so even though I had sharp pains of guilt I quickly shooed them away with justifications. After all, it was my H’s fault in the first place.The idea is to eliminate LB's, examine where one has failed to meet the WS's needs (as best as can be determined), “create an atmosphere that is safe for the WS to back to (the no LB's being a big part there).” Yup, that’s what I thought…only I thought it was done as an attempt to bring the WS out of the affair. But what you said makes sense…the A has to die of it’s own accord (namely it’s participants falling from grace in each others eyes). Any meddling with it by the BS most often would backfire. In our case, however…had my H talked with the OM face to face…that would have been that. My H and I would have had tons of work to do to get where we are now…but it would have been easier since the A would never have gotten to the point it did. I wager we still would have separated but I think maybe my head would have popped out sooner had I not been enabled in my pity party. But those are “what if’s” at this point.

“Now typically, the WS doesn't seem to notice the Plan A. Their focus is on the OP.” I’m going to say moreso THEMSELVES. Although all appearances are that their every thought is focused around the OP…if you look a little harder and really analyze the feelings…their focus is about their pain and avoiding dealing with it. “However, they do seem to notice a drop in LB's. Some react positively, others react very negatively: start arguements, pull further away, ect. I presume this is because they don't want to be confused with the fact that their marriage may work.” Oh absolutely. My H and I would get along for a while…and then he would make the tiniest move towards me and I would cut him off at the waist. I’ve never been such a b**ch in my life. I honestly didn’t even know I had it in me. I’m hoping that side of me followed the fog.

“But, the application of these aspects of plan A is done without expectation that the WS will respond in a positive manner.” Good idea. One thing my H and I learned the hard way was to drop ALL expectations. The minute we (ok, let’s say I) did that…things couldn’t be better. Without the expectations we don’t experience near the disappointments. “hence the feeling like a doormat syndrom.” That’s the hard part to witness while reading posts on this board. It really does seem like people allow the WS to get away with an awful lot. I see the reasoning for it though, and a REAL plan A done correctly…usually leads to the BS becoming a much more emotionally healthy person. In the end I think even if it doesn’t work out, they are more ready to move on in a healthy way…vs the WS who will undoubtly go from one disasterous relationship to another…unless they finally learn to deal with the pain inside. “So Plan A is really about funkedup, Not Mrs Funkedup. She has her own deamons do deal with.” Now I see why plan A…although a positive thing for Mrs Funk, is really about Mr. Funk. And yes, Mrs Funk has demons to deal with…but I don’t think without a safe environment, that will happen at home. Let’s hope Mr Funk decides to do a REAL plan A.

This thread has turned out to be a very positive one for me, at least (but hopefully for the funk family, as well [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )H4F:
"“hence the feeling like a doormat syndrom.” That’s the hard part to witness while reading posts on this board. It really does seem like people allow the WS to get away with an awful lot. I see the reasoning for it though, and a REAL plan A done correctly…usually leads to the BS becoming a much more emotionally healthy person. In the end I think even if it doesn’t work out, they are more ready to move on in a healthy way…vs the WS who will undoubtly go from one disasterous relationship to another…unless they finally learn to deal with the pain inside."I think that's the point. In the end, no matter whether the M works out or not, Plan A DID work for the BS. I'm certainly one of those posters that appears, at times, to be willing to let my WW walk all over me, wipe her muddy boots all through my hair... But much of that appearance is due to my using this board to voice whatever is on my mind at a given moment. I use this site for journaling, as
1) it is a bit safer than leaving things on my laptop, where my W might see them if she walks into the room and I'm not quick enough to hide them (and I'm not! plus I don't like hiding things from her)
2) I'm much calmer and more collected when I journal my feelings on this board than when I write them to a file on my computer. JL can probably attest to this. Though he hasn't seen what I wrote in response to discovering personal email between W and OM in early March, he knows what I was doing that day - I almost ended our M on the spot - and so I'm sure he can imagine what I wrote in my email to W and OM. I still have that file, and when I reread what I wrote, I'm absolutely shocked at how angry I was. This site keeps my rants much more calm by comparison! And my plan A has gotten much, much better since then. I guess I'd have to say I really started an effective plan A about mid-March, then. Although there were a few LBs from me at the beginning, I've not LB'd at all in several weeks now, and I think I owe that fact to this site and to feedback from fine folks like yourselves.I still don't know what's going to happen with our M (but I'm definitely an "it's not over until it's over" person!). My W and I are closer now than we've been in over a decade, and that's great (and may be indicating the fog is finally starting to lift). But there are some key obstacles that still need to be overcome.
*My #1 EN, H&O, is not being filled, and there's been no discussion of how to do that (but I'm going to remain as patient as I can for a while).
*Though W has NOT met OM on at least 2 occasions since D-day when he was in town, she only told me about these after he left the second time, so there was no realtime updating on what was or wasn't going on between them.
*OM is keeping his distance, but I don't know whether that's because 1) he knows I know; 2) W has told him to stay away; or 3) he and W have "gone underground" with yahoo or hotmail accounts that I don't know about. In the end, even if #3 is the case above, it doesn't really matter. As my plan A results more and more in a better ME, I'll be able to determine whether our M is fulfilling MY needs to my satisfaction, and since H&O is my #1, it will be very, very hard for my W to maintain even a secret email A (or "friendship") with OM without me knowing something was wrong (because if she's not completely H&O with me, I will lose interest in our M).I'm keeping my digits crossed, and for now am enjoying the good times my W and I are having together, but my main focus continues to be on myself!Thanks for a thread that's wound up being pretty helpful to me (and hopefully the Funk Family!).

H4F,I was in a hurry yesterday, but thought I would come back and add a few more thoughts to this.One of the most interesting things I have observed on this board is that often the WS thinks the Harley approach is "simple-minded" and therefore won't work. Some have termed it "silly".What I see is that it is very pragmatic. It simplicity hides some very very subtle points that are often missed in my estimation.For example the idea of a giver/taker. You can use any terminology you want (my father's estimation of things was that the two great motivators in life are fear and greed and watch out for anyone that doesn't appear to be motivated by such [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ), really is the giver/taker battle going on. Now if all of us have this constant battle going on inside, it doesn't take too much of a reach to imagine that there will be clashes between the giver and taker of each spouse.The Plan A recognizes this, but more importantly it recognizes that in the case of an affair or simply loss of love there will be a stalemate. THe betrayed person his hurt, and feels the betrayer should make it up to them. The betraying person often feels that they have been failed in the marriage and have the "right" to be happy. The spouse isn't making them happy.So who gives?? The betrayed or the betrayer? Normal human senses of protection says the betrayer should make amends and heal the damage they have done. They broke the vows of fidelity; emotional or physical. However, Harley noticed that they are already out of the relationship, so they don't care if the stalemate is broken. Sooooo, it falls to the betrayed via Plan A to make the first move.And the move is: I can change. I do want this to work. I will try not to hurt you. The first move is not: You need to change. You need to stop the affair before I will even consider that I am not sitting on the right hand of God.Now interestingly people do use Plan A before they ever hear about MB. My bet is that Harley saw many of those people in his practice and realized that they did better in rebuilding their marriage. I have never talked to any of the Harley family, but I sense they pay attention and pragmatically look at the data before them.So this post is really to suggest that Plan A is not about the WS in many subtle ways. It is about breaking the normal deadlocks that a failing marriage often falls into. What makes it powerful, is that is done WITHOUT feed back from the WS. When it is done correctly, it is because the BS sees their failings and simply decides to change them, not driven by anything the WS has given them or encouraged them to do.You are right Plan A and B almost always work in making the BS a better person and a happier person with respect to the outcome of their marriage, whether it makes it or not.Yes, one can see that done correctly Plan A does provide a "safe" place to come back to. Safe in that the BS has shown the willingness to change and compromise somewhat and to recognize that the WS may have left for reasons caused by BS. Mostly, it seems to Plan A shows the WS that the BS isn't going to hold them under their thumb and do the "my way or the highway" approach. Not to say that the WS isn't going to have to face the music, but the rules of marriage and POJA should help protect both parties. It is often forgotten that the MB approach isn't just Plan A and Plan B, there is more and it is to protect both parties.My point is that this stuff is very subtle but very grounded in pragmatic human behavior. Yet, it seems so "formulistic" and therefore is often rejected. In fact, it isn't that widely accepted among counselors, but it apparently works at a higher rate than most approaches.Personally, I like the point that pain of radical honesty is better for a marriage than the bliss of ignorance. I am a strong believer in the concept that there is no free lunch, and that hiding things causes damage although often very rarely recognized until it is too late. The other point I really like is Harley's idea about sacrifice. For the most part it builds resentment and doesn't help the marriage, hence the POJA. That doesn't mean there aren't times when one spouse or the other makes a sacrifice, it just shouldn't happen without both of them recognizing it, discussing it, and agreeing to it.Enjoyed the conversation H4F, have a good day.JL[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]

JL:I had a conversation about this with my IC this morning, that I'll post to a new thread:"Personally, I like the point that pain of radical honesty is better for a marriage than the bliss of ignorance. I am a strong believer in the concept that there is no free lunch, and that hiding things causes damage although often very rarely recognized until it is too late. The other point I really like is Harley's idea about sacrifice. For the most part it builds resentment and doesn't help the marriage, hence the POJA. That doesn't mean there aren't times when one spouse or the other makes a sacrifice, it just shouldn't happen without both of them recognizing it, discussing it, and agreeing to it."Stay tuned!

I thought marriage builders was here to help? Not make someone feel less then a penny. I only know a little bit about this mans story but it sure sounds to me like several women on here are posting and telling this man that he didn't do a darn thing to stop his wife from having sex with another man. I am sorry to tell you this but affairs happen because the other person stops caring for there spouse. And wants more excitment. It also sounds as though these women became close friends with his wife there for defending her for her actions. Like I said I don't know the whole story. But this guy needs more advice and this is the place at which he chooses to get it from. So try to be a bit more helpful and not hurtful. God Bless and good luck.

Hungry for Love, I agree that initially that was also my reaction to the way they expressed themselves to him, but the main 'critic' did have some valid points (although I agree they weren't wrapped in a simpathetic package). If you read her last post, she acknowledged that she had been somewhat overly critical of his behavior towards his WW when Just Learning reminded her what plan A and B objectives were.Even though I am a FBS, I can see many mistakes that we, BS's, tend to do in the beginning that instead of making our WS's committ themselves to the M, tend to push them away (Love busters). We want our WS's so bad that we forget that it will take time for the WS to WANT to committ to rebuilding the M. In other words, our fear gets the best of us and we become impatient and demanding with our WS's. I've often wondered whether a little bit of emotional detachment from the WS during the withdrawl phase of a WS (where they find themselves contacting the OP) might be helpful to the BS to gain some control over his/her emotions. This could prevent 'reacting to' (emotional)the WS's actions and foster 'acting on'(rational) opportunities to be supportive to WS when the A is in it's last days. Letting our emotions dictate our course of action has, is, and always will be a bad idea.Joe