EMAIL FROM PRIEST TO ME:

I had my visit with Judy. It sounds to me like a lot of trust issues and
that it would take a lot of time. She says she needs time and does not
want to be bothered. I told her of your love for her and she said that her
grandparents have been saying the same thing. She says that if he truly
loves me he will give me the time I need. I could not get a real sense
about stopping the divorce proceedings, but i do not believe that she
plans to void them nor set them back. We visited for about an hour and she
said she may call again, but she needs time. I did not mention the web
site to her because she feels inundated with your efforts and thinks that
you are obsessing and she says that is not love that is desperation. She
feels she has given you so many chances previously and they meant nothing
to you . I tried to tell her, as her grandparents did, that you have
changed and seem sincere about your feelings.

That is when she goes into the fact that if you truly loved her you would
give her the time and space she needs right now.

She was aware of the retrovaille weekend, but didn't indicate a strong
sesire at this time. I left it in her ball park to call me back if she is
interested in visiting about it again.

FROM ALAN:
Priest and I also spoke on the phone. At least now she realizes I do love her and am willing to change. She has doubted that for awhile now. I'm glad her grandparents see me in this light. That should be a strong influence on Judy. She says she has given me chances in the past and I haven't taken them seriously. Maybe because I didn't see a divorce coming?
Should I wait 3 weeks and give her a plan A letter? I bought tickets to her favorite performer. The concert is Novemebr 22nd. If I make no bad moves up to that point, should I ask her to the concert.....no strings attached. If she says no.....fine at least she knows I asked and that I will go anyway and have fun? So much I want to say to her and I feel so helpless. I will NOT contact anyone whom she may feel I am using to get her back. I just sought advise from these people. I just want her to know that I can offer her a marriage that she will be happy in because I know what I did wrong and now that I see that I know I can meet her needs. She gave him indications that she will not stop or slow down divorce proceedings. She needs time. How much time? It's funny she hasn't turned down the little things I've done or given her ie, massage therapy, cd, body lotions etc. (but doesn't want me calling, emailing, or seeing her in person). Do I NOT DO OR GIVE HER ANYTHING FOR A FEW WEEKS and then maybe she will feel I'm not obsessing about her. I just want to PROVE to her that I can make everything up to her. Is there anything wrong with that? That isn't obsession is it?

Does anyone think she HAS made up her mind (from following my story) or that she may be wavering a little? We had such a great talk a couple of weeks ago.....and she opened up emotionally about our relationship. She told the priest about our 2 hour talk. What should I think of this? She has doubted my love for her, but now I feel she knows I love her. She is mad and hurt that I have waited until this dire situation to do the things I'm doing. I wish I had done more of the right things when we were together.

Any insight, help, guidance will be appreciated. It aint over till the fat lady sings! Right?

<small>[ October 29, 2002, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: AlanArthur ]</small>

Alan,

I don't have much to offer. After reading the letter from your priest I feel like my W would say the same things. I really need to slow down, but she is an expert in getting me going.

My W is also sad and hurt that I waited this long to really work on the M. She, too, gave me "many chances."

But what do we do? I know this is not an excuse but are we just typical hard headed men?

I guess we show them we are changing. I don't want to sound pessimistic but you can't be sure whether she knows you love her or not. All you know is the priest and her grandparents told her but is she convinced? I don't know, but the positive changes you make for yourself is a way to show her you are for real.

Hang in there, my friend. This is probably the worst test we will have in life. God is with you.

Be well.

AlanArthur,

I don't have much advice except for a couple of things.
First, have you read Mortarmans current post? If not read it and give what he says some serious thought.
Second, 2Long suggested a book to me. It is "The Truth About Relationships." I haven't seen it at many bookstores, but I did get it on Amazon. I cannot recommend it enough. I haven't even finished it and it has already changed my thinking in regards to my Wife. I will not call her WW anymore. She is my Wife.
I hope things get better for you. You cannot fast forward and MAKE her see anything. Better yourself and show her love and respect (which I am sure you are) and she WILL see it.

Take Care

HW

Al,

Sounds like my wife!!! Especially a few months ago. unfortunately, my friend, I cannot give you great news that it will all end tomorrow. I am starting to be one of the veterans here, mostly due to my stupid LBs. But I do know this:

The Land of Fog is a mystical place. You only can enter it by betraying your spouse, your family, your God and even yourself. Once inside, it has a pleasantness to it, even fun. But something is constantly disconcerting to the person inside. It seems the fog is also some kind of drug that makes the person inside incapable of seeing reality with ANY clarity.

Now you say...how can I go there and save my wife or husband from the grasp of the Fog? Unfortunately, the hard way over 7 months, I have learned there is absolutely NOTHING I can do. It will take someone more powerful than me to reach my wife. All I can do is sit and wait and work on me.

Once the Lord leads my wife out, at first, the fog will come and go. Sometimes she will see reality, but the hurt, pain and being ashamed causes her to run scared back inside. But dont yell at her or LB. This is natural, I have found out. All yelling at her or LBing will do is scare her deeper into the fog and not want to come out. What you have to do (and it has taken me until two days ago to fully figure it out) is let Christ go back in there after her, and lead her out again. Eventually, she will begin to trust him that reality is a safe place again and she can venture out unharmed. But you have to prepare a nice, safe, inviting place for that.

Of course, she has no idea the reality you are stuck in (all of us BSers). Our reality is nothing they will EVER be able to fathom. While they live on the fog drug called "OM" or "OW," we sit out here in reality in constant pain. It isnt fair.

Since your wife sounds soooo much like mine, check out my previous posts over the last 6 months (I think I started in May) and see if anything rings a bell with what has happened to me. Maybe you can keep from making the mistakes I have.

In His Arms.

<small>[ October 29, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Thanks,
I have started to read yours. In my case there is NO OM....thank God. But she feels she has tried only to be met with pain. I am making gains as far as myself. I just hope she comes out of fog before we lose everything and a chance to save our marriage.

Al,

It is good that you caught her before an affair. My wife also tried...and I did not listen until this!

Stay on course, she will see it. If there was no OM drug for my wife, we would already be back together.

Just be there for her, show with everyday that you "get it." And most importantly, leave the results to Christ. Only He can save anyone.

I'm thinking in 3 weeks.....NO CONTACT AT ALL THROUGH ANYONE..........

Would it then be ok to make contact with a letter, so she knows I still want to work on marriage?

The Following........recommendations/slice/dice/add/subtract/what do you think she WANTS to hear to help her make up her mind or might influence a change of heart.......let me know Thanks

LETTER:

I feel if I don't tell you how I feel now that I may never get the opportunity. We had such a nice talk at the middle of October. I will always remember that. I wish we had more meaningful conversations as that. I so miss talking to you. I will be going to the John Melloncamp concert in Council Bluffs on Novemebr 22nd. I need this so I can relax. It just won't feel the same without you. Concerts are so much fun with you. Who knows........the invitation is open, although I am sure you would refuse and I understand.

Judy, as each day comes and goes I think of the happy couple we once were. I realize I failed to give you enough praise. I was selfish and caught up in myself, and with this selfishness and foolishness I helped create a void in our marriage. I failed to be there for you when you needed me most. I was wrong, so very wrong, and I apologize to you from the bottom of my heart for all the pain I caused you. I neglected your emotional needs. Now I am so much richer in knowledge and know I can do so much better. I feel we were living individual lives within our marriage and I failed to nurture and grow our marriage. I let you, Sophie and everyone around us down. I am so sorry.

The time away has given me time to think and reflect on our past together. I now realize I have treated you and everyone that I love or is important in my life terrible. You have given me chances, but I didn't react the way I should have. I should have picked up on the signs. I wish I had re-scheduled the counseling appointment a few months ago. I wish we had continued going to Carol last year. She is a great counselor. I wish I had given her the chance. We probably wouldn't be where we are now had we continued.

I have stepped back and realized that, yes, you have tried in our marriage. I was just so selfish and stubborn I didn't realize this. I did not see what I was doing to you and us. It took a drastic situation as this to make me realize certain things. How could I have been so foolish? I am married to the most wonderful and beautiful woman a man could ever hope for. I know I have caused you severe pain. More pain than I will ever know. If I could absorb that pain God knows I would. I am asking for your forgiveness. Without your forgiveness and my repentance we will never be able to take a positive step forward in our relationship. Even Christ forgave and loved those who crucified Him.

I know I will not be able to do this without your help. I understand if you feel reluctant. I know there is not much in the past that would encourage you to try again. But I do not want us to try as we have tried in the past. I want us to work at something far more meaningful than we ever had. I want us to take whatever steps are necessary to gain self-understanding of each other. I know it will take work, and may be painful, but I am willing to do whatever is necessary. I do not expect an answer right away. Just think about it and pray. I have a book called "Hope For The Separated". I wish you would read it and perhaps understand some of the things I have been thinking about and my decision to seek reconciliation. I hope after you have had enough time to think, read, and pray that you may call me so maybe we can get together and discuss things.

Now that I know what I have done in this relationship and failed to resolve, I am asking for the opportunity to do it now. I promise you I will work hard not to revert back to the Alan you've known the last year and a half, but the loving, caring and compassionate Alan you fell in love with, who will treat you with the utmost respect and dignity you deserve. Since this began, I've been trying to give you hope for the marriage by learning how to become a better husband to you. To give you hope that you could return to a marriage that you wanted and for us to build a great life together filled with all the things we both love. I would like an opportunity to prove my love to you and our family. I pray that you might consider giving me this gift. I still want us to have a life together that's changing and growing; one that's built on trust and centered on each other and Sophia.

I know there are other people out there for us. I don't blame you for looking for that special someone to treat you like you need to be treated. Someone you can give your love to and will return that love. I too can find someone to love and will return that love. But, I feel I have already found that woman.

I know I failed to meet alot of your emotional and physical needs. I do know now though, how to meet them. I am committed to working on our marriage. Not only have I continued counseling weekly since August, but I have joined a support group of others who have been where we are, read over a dozen relationship books, and sought help from Father Flaherty. I have also joined RCIA classes so I can become more involved in the church and become closer to Christ. I have done these things to make me a better person and learn from my mistakes. If you decide you want to work on the marriage then these things I am doing will only make our relationship and marriage grow into something to make us both happy and give Sophia a loving and nourishing family life. I feel we have a foundation to build upon. We have seen the worst in each other and with each of us working on ourselves we can come back and make our marriage something we could only dream about, reflecting on the good times we shared. Working on our marriage would be one of the greatest gifts we could ever give each other and our families. I would like to be the husband and friend you always wanted.

I know right now you don't want to give me another chance and looking back I can understand why, but with God's help I will make positive changes to reflect how intense my love is for you and my family. I now realize I must walk with Christ and act as He would act. Do as He would do. With Christ in our lives how can we fail? You may find it strange or obsessive, but I carry your ring with me daily. I suppose it makes me feel like your with me. I have it in my hand when I pray at home or in church. It is so lonely without you. I miss seeing your gorgeous smile, talking to you, hearing your laugh, touching you, making love to you and all the little things you never think about.
We are human and we make mistakes. More than anything in this world, I would like to put the mistakes in the past behind us and build a better life together. I want us to strive to grow while avoiding the same mistakes that got us to the place we find ourselves now and more than anything else I want us to go forward together.

I love you Jude; I want you to be my wife and I your husband. I know this situation hurts and you know it hurts me too. The night I asked you to marry me I meant what I said. I want you to be my wife and I want to grow old with you. I want to be your best friend and confidant, and the one person who is always there for you. And I want you to be my best friend and confidant. We need to spend time and do things together. We need to become friends again. This was part of our problem. We grew apart by not spending time becoming closer by doing more recreational activities together. You are a vibrant woman who enjoys many things. I enjoy many things too. These are the activities that we must participate in so we can bond and become the friends we once were. Judy, you love to go dancing and clubbing. That's one thing we really haven't done together and I know you miss that. I do enjoy this and I would love to have you teach me to dance so we can enjoy time together. There are things I like that maybe you don't, but if you learn to enjoy the things I like then we can become even closer.

I have tried the best that I know how to express my love for you and my desire to have you in my life as my wife again. But I don't know what else to say. I could hold on and make a nuisance of myself but I love you too much to cause you any more pain than I already have. If making you happy is moving on with our lives separately then that is what we have to do. If you feel that a divorce is what you have to do then I will respect your decision. It's in God's hands now. I will always have a great deal of love and admiration for you if we do go separate ways.

I just really needed you to know how sincere I am, how much I still love you, and how sorry I am for any mistakes that I made. They say that we should learn from our mistakes, and I know that's true but I just wish the lesson didn't cost so much. I know you are wondering: Why did it take him this long to attempt to work on our marriage? I don't have a great answer. Only thing I can say is that the threat of losing you and my family forever has opened my eyes to what I did wrong and what I must do to better myself to make our marriage solid once again. I put my job and money ahead of you, family and Christ and that was the wrong order. I plan on doing it much differently now. I want to make you happy. I want to see that gorgeous smile more often. I want to hold you and kiss you and let you know how important you truly are to me.

Judy, I was blown away by you when we met and I love you more today than I did when we first married. I can't sit here and say that I now know all that I need to know about relationships, but I can honestly say that I do know a lot more about friendship, honor, cherishing, being passionately creative, supportive and even simple companionship. And I know that I have to be a supportive and loving man. The type of man that I hoped you would be proud of to call your husband; the same pride I felt so many times when I called you my wife.

I will be moving back to Omaha by the beginning of next year. I have an opportunity there if I want it. There are too may memories for me here and I don't really like it here. I know you kind of like it here now. You have done a great job at building up your business. I am so proud of the hard work you do. I will be selling restaurant. I can't do this and build a life. It will only interfere if I want to have another relationship down the road. I want to finish school and maybe become a counselor. I really like talking to others about relationships and feel I have gained a great deal of knowledge to help others, plus the money is good.

I now realize how hard you work. Having Sophie in Omaha by myself gave me a true understanding on what you do everyday and I failed to help you with. You work hard at your career, take care of Sophia, the housework and me. Wow! I really do respect you. I know now if we did work on things that I need to contribute alot more. You need time to yourself too. Just remember.....if you give me a chance, I will be a great husband, father, friend and lover you had always hoped for. I know you can't believe it because you have never seen it. You have my promiseand must believe in me.

Unfortunately, not seeing you for this long has caused me to start to forget what you look like. I'd be foolish if I said I didn't miss you, because I do. I dream about holding you in my arms again. I'd be as nervous as I was the first time we dated, but I know you need this time away and so do I. If you do choose to try reconciliation I will give it all I have. You are that important.

I realize I have made mistakes during our separation. You may have even felt I seemed desperate at times. I am just trying to make up to you for the wrongs I caused, to show you how much I truly and sincerely care and love you. I have finally found my softer side and I have you to thank for that. I'm glad I have learned to cry. I have needed this for a long time. God wanted me to experience this and I needed to experience this. I realize there are no winners in this. I will never play a mind games with you again, I just want you to know that I am still 100% dedicated to make our marriage a wonderful place that you would want to be.

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: AlanArthur ]</small>

Al, I will try to give you what I have learned with my wife.

First, it is a very good letter. I think she will definitely get the point, although it may take time to sink in. I have written several letters such as yours. My problem was that I looked for an immediate reaction, wanting her to fall on my neck and make everything okay.

Thye Fog dont work that way! You will have to let this sink in, and start doing what you said, whether she acknowledges this letter or not, whether she has asked you back in or not. Only the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of what you have written will be seen by a person in the fog. And it will take them awhile to process. How long? Who knows. You are better off than most here because there is no A, no OM, to confuse things further.

The one thing I MIGHT suggest rewording or taking out is some of the middle section, where you promise her the future. She wont believe it. So, when she reads that part, her eyes will just glaze over. it is the future part that will have to come to her by your actions (and a healthy dose of the Holy Spirit). IMHO, I think that if you keep in the apology parts, where you show specifically the things you did wrong...added to that the parts where you discuss what you are doing to improve yourself (not to get her back...just to improve yourself)...and then finish up like you did with telling her that you love her, are still her husband, and that you pray that Christ will help both of you find your way through this. That hopefully, the dream will continue. Blah, blah, blah. You get the point.

I know with my wife, the parts saying "I've changed...trust me...take my hand and lets go" went over like NOTHING. But, she did use them each time I LBed to show me that I hadnt changed. Nah...leave out the "I've changed" stuff and the stuff on the awesome future togther. Let her soak in that you "get it." That you are working on you. She will then sit back and watch. And your everyday actions will cause her to believe that change is possible. it is then, that she will come to you, and want to talk about that future.

Again, this is from my experience. Hope others weigh in.

In His Arms.

Mine is a similar situation.

Mortarman, sad to say this, but I feel better that I am not the only one who has blown it with lots of LB's. I am getting better at not doing that. I'm sorry it's taking you this long. I am not completely out of the woods yet.

My W also discards anything that has to do with "I am changing..." But as soon as I LB she does remember it and says "see, you haven't changed." She also keeps telling me I can't change. It wasn't until last week that she's started saying she has noticed a change in me, but of course, "it is too late." The strange thing is that today she told me she feels sad and hurt that it took this long for me to start working on the M.

I'll say it again, Have Faith. For many years I have been wanting to grow closer to God. I would be a fool if I don't take this opportunity to do that. I am leaving it all in His hands and I am beginning to think that I should just get out of His way and let Him do His work. Christ has helped me so much with this. The Holy Spirit has given me the strength and the patience I did not think I could have.

Be well.

^

Do not send the letter... You are not listening to her.... She said she wants time... That means leave her alone.. Your letter is going to come across as desperate..

She knows you want her back... She knows you are sorry.... You are pressuring her, and pressure does not work....

The best thing to do is nothing.. Do not call, do not email, do not write letters, do not talk to her friends and family. Let her have time to herself or you are going to drive her further away. Do not send flowers or gifts.. Let her have a chance to WONDER what you are up to.

There is great power in having no contact for awhile, even though you may not realize it..

Well I was going to send letter in a few weeks after solitude. Are you still saying don't send it?

I have been giving her little gifts in daughters bag every couple of weeks so she knows I'm still here and care. Should I still do this? I put like gourmet coffee, her favorite cd, hand lotions, etc. Something small every couple of weeks. Is this ok?

Are divorce will be final at end of December if she doesn't stop it or extend it out.

Is doing NOTHING the right thing or will she feel I gave up now? and reverted back to the old Alan

Alan, you are in right path. Let time passes by and let her takes her time to digest it but you have apply PTC, patience, time and consistency.

Like mortarman said, the fog land is different. It won't go away right away, even w/ strong wind. It is slowly moved and burn by ray of sun.

About chasing. There is a boy who tried made up w/ his girlfreind. The boy starts slow, kissing, and touching ... when thing is getting hotter the girlfreind says "don't ... no ... oh ... don't ...". The boyfreind stops right away and asks why ?, his father told him to repect & honor woman's wish when he is dating. The girlfreind says "dummy !!... I say don't, don't stop !." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Look at her action ... take your email incident for instant. She say stop and until she explain what has happened, you stop. On the other hand, you have giving trouble card, dvd collection, massage freebie, helping her w/ the bill and none of those were returned. Keep it consistence, over time and make it as a habit ... she enjoys it (you hit several ENs and she doesn't refuse it) but she could not give you hope ... yet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Be patience and keep it consistent as a habit ... slowly up the volume. Hold your plan A letter for now and droped it in after a few weeks of "hallmarks's card".

There is no one thing will turned Judy but it has to be many things, small and consistent actions that chipping away the wall that she has erected.

Good work. -rh-

Thanks RedHat,
I think you are right. Do the things she lets me do. She has told me by actions what is allowed and isn't. These small actions are the only things I will do for now. I want her to feel like I am courting her. This should make her feel good. Doing things I haven't done for sometime.
It would be nice if fog lifted soon. It seems like it lifts a little then she goes back under.

My question is: Doesn't she realize eventually during divorce we are going to have to communicate? We have a child.

Would it be good for a couple of weeks to do absolutely nothing, so she wonders why I'm not pursuing with little gifts and cards?

Should I plan out a reconciliation on the calendar? Just things I feel I need to do and when so I keep on track with a game plan?

Wife called my mother, said she had plans Thursday night and was wondering if I would like to take daughter overnight and take her trick or treating. I hate being used for a babysitter....only WHEN it's convenient for her. Should I do this? I hate to turn down daughter, but it's the idea of the way my W uses it.

Boy, I know 4 things now.
#1 If we get divorced I will definitely know I TRIED!
#2 If we do attempt to reconcile I will NEVER let it get to this point again.
#3 Hopefully we can become friends after divorce
#4 The next woman in my life should thank my current wife.......because the next one is going to be so lucky to find someone who now knows the RIGHT things to do and NOT to do

Just got back from counseling appointment. She does agree with you RedHat. Keep doing the little things consistantly over long period of time. She doesn't agree in turning it up more though, she feels this will signal desperation to her. She aslo thinks flowers are out of the question. Too personal and my W is accepting things through daughters bag. Flowers would have to be delivered.......she says nothing that involves 3rd party. This is unacceptable by my wifes rules right now.

I realized at counseling that I have never bought my wife anything at Bath and Body Works like I did the other day. This is the first time I seriously broke down in counseling. I realize what a poor excuse for a husband I was. No wonder she has lost love. I took took took and didn't give. I should have been "courting" her this whole time.

I think your letter is too long and overwhelming. It does seem desperate.

Don't tell her with words as much as show her by actions. The concert is a good idea. I used it myself with my FWS. But the invitation MUST be casual. About 2 weeks before, tell WW- I have 2 tickets to a John Mellencamp concert on x/xx. Would you be interested in going with me? If not, I can go with a friend. If she says no, let it drop. DON'T show your hurt. If she says yes, be calm, casual. Great- should I pick you up at x o'clock?

Hi AL-

First let me say, I DON'T THINK YOUR WIFE IS IN A FOG!!!! I can't stress that enough. If there were an OM, or she was totally unreasonable, then it might apply, but I don't think she is either of these things. I do think she is extremely hurt and probably harboring a TON of resentment. I can't remember how many times I said to my husband "I was worth absolutely NO effort before, and now that I don't want anything from you, all of a sudden you can't live without me?" I thought it was ABSOLUTE BULL PUCKY!!!!

The ONLY thing that will work for you is to walk the talk. STOP the 10 page letters. WAY too much pressure there. STOP talking to her friends etc. to try to learn about how she feels. When she is ready, SHE will tell you. KEEP doing the extra little things for her to make her feel special and let her know you are thinking of her and her feelings ABOVE your own.

My H and I have been where you are. This is ALL I wanted. Don't TELL me what you are going to do, DO IT. Then continue to do it. This probably won't make you too happy, but my H had to keep it up for over a year before I started believing he had "changed". I hope you are as serious as you write, because it is going to take a LONG and CONSISTANT effort.

Hey Fighting4Us (Love you honey!), got any advice over here?

Try to keep smiling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Your right, she is harboring a ton of resentment. I just feel I have so much to do to make it up to her. We only have until the end of December until divorce, unless she extends it. That doesn't leave me a lot of time. Yes, I did the relatives and friends thing. Bad move. How will she know my actions are genuine?? That I am not being desperate or obsessive? Could I send the letter in a few weeks after I haven't done anything to set things back as long as I cut the letter down to one page? I feel that if I don't say anything that she will carryout divorce not truly knowing my feelings. I do believe there is a fog. How do I know? She was on a dating site saying things to a guy that she would not normally say after only 3 weeks of chatting on internet! That is not her.
Do you agree with concert tickets? Everyone is different, but do you feel this would be wise to ask her or should I give her one ticket as a gift and then without her knowing I use the other and IF she shows up I tell her why I did it and if she feels uncomfortable I will leave? Concert is Nov. 22nd, about 3 weeks after what she told priest......is that enough time if I do things the way she wants?

I would stop thinking about the December date as the Divorce date. Thinking like that will make you do desperate things.
My Wife and I have mediation next week! I don't think about it at all anymore. I am just trying make the changes in myself and let her see them naturally. Anything else to you Wife will just be desperation and she won't take it for REAL.
Love her without the condition of getting anything in return. If you do that, she WILL see it. All she sees now is desperation and you wanting something from her. The concert tickets are ok, ONLY if you give them wanting NOTHING in return. And, only if you EXPECT nothing in return. If don't expect anything you cannot be dissapointed.

Just a thought.

HW

Hey Al

Listen to NLA9 she's a smart cookie. Actions speak louder than words. I also think that suprising her at the concert could really blow up in your face. It could very well become a last straw or seen as sneaky and underhanded. If it's really a gift though give her both tickets and let her choose to take you or a friend if she's not ready for you yet. I know it could be a very painful result, but courage is knowing the worst possible result and continuing despite fear or pain. I would wait for NLA9's opinion on that one. As for her not seeing the changes, try cutting the grass, making sure her car is in good working order(oil change at least), make sure all doctor/dentist visits are up to date with the munchkins, all clothes are clean when returned, small thoughtful gifts like you are already doing, and lots of perserverance.

LOL

NoLongeralone9,

I would really like to talk to you one on one by phone. You having been where my wife is now will give me some true insight. If you call me at 515-832-5502 central time and leave me your number I will call you right back. I have a restaurant and tonight should be fairly slow. I am really curious on how and what you felt being in her situation. I wouls like to tell you kindof what's been going on and what I need to do.

Hi Al-

I think you asked the wrong person for permission to talk on the phone!! I will ask my H and see what he thinks. We have more than 1 phone, so maybe we could all 3 talk. This is definately a boundary for us. I tend to be the "I want to help" kind of person, sometimes to my detriment!

I understand what you are saying about "the fog". I guess I even had my own fog for a while. I did some things to "show" my H that other people find me attractive. I was trying to prove (more to myself I think) that I could get someone else, so he better watch out. This was more of a revenge reaction than anything else. When you feel like you are ignored for a long time, you really start to feel like no one would ever be interested. It is a self-esteem problem. Does this sound like what is going on or is it more serious (dating others etc.)?

I think you are doing well with the "little surprises" in your daughters bag. Maybe you could add some one-liners like with the coffee - Hope you have a great morning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Doing little things like that will keep you on her mind. I bet every time she drank a cup of coffee, she thought of you. That is execellent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Also try to think of little gifts that might relate to a happy time in your marriage. You want her to start thinking of the "good" times so she won't focus on the bad.

Just remember, the most IMPORTANT thing right now is consistancy!!!!!! Show that you are not going to go back to the way you were. That this is not a fear reaction, but a new way of life for you.

I agree that you are too focused on the divorce date. It will make you do desperate things. You need to let that go. I'm betting if you don't mention it until close to the date, and then ask if maybe she will move it back a little to give you more time to prove your changes, you will be surprised by the response. By then she should have some things to look back on and see that you are changing. This might make her willing to see if the changes will last.

Let me stress here that I never had an OM or anything close to that. If that is your situation, the things I am telling you probably won't work. I just wanted my H the way he was before we got married. I wanted us to have a better marriage. I also wanted him to prove we would if I gave it one more try. I wanted him to work to convince me. Basically I wanted to be the center of his universe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Boy, I wasn't asking for much, was I <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I hoped this helped some. Will be back later!!

Try to keep smiling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You are so right. First of all she is 27. We have been together 7 years, married last 3. We have a daughter almost 3. We startde 2 businesses this last 4 years...hers (photography) mine (restaurant) we built them from the ground up into 2 successful businesses. This last 1 1/2 years have been difficult. I had an EA (about 2 mo.)over a year ago. She knew, but I kept denying until August when all he!! broke loose. I know I hurt her. I feel so bad. We were not spending time together meeting each others needs. We grew apart. I ruined the trust. She feels I never loved her and only married her because she was pregnant. NOT TRUE. Had I known this I very well could have worked on it. I have been going to IC in August right before we split every week, she hasn't gone at all. I do know her needs now and know what to do differently if given this BIG chance.

two weeks before I moved out I found out she put her profile on a dating site. She had been emailing a guy telling him nast things about me......she said she really didn't mean all those things and that when she wrote them she was mad. She continued to eamil when I didn't like it. She said he was a nice guy!!!After 2 weeks she was falling for him??? Then I knew what was coming.....I moved out.....she got a RO
I was served divorce papers 9-25.....only contact since was on 10-18 when she called me and we had a 2 hour GREAT talk. She opened up emotionally to me. Something she hadn't done in a long time. I was very caring and understanding and she said I did sound different. She knew I found out that she went with a different guy to a concert (she met him on diff. dating site.....talking email and phone 3 weeks) She said nothing happened. I did not get mad and told her I understood (old Alan would have been furious). When she got off the phone she was probably wondering where her husband was! She may be dating. The guy she went to concert with is 3 1/2 hours away.......so not worried. NO PERM. OM. She just wants her freedom to find out who she is and I believe to be validated as a viable woman. Her self-esteem has been poor. When I comlimented her she would say...I'm not beautiful I'm fat and ugly". I felt so bad. She said she wasn't happy and didn't want to be like this anymore. She did tell me during phone conversation she was lonely and bitter. She said "Why didn't you reschedule counseling appointment in June like I asked you". Like she was reaching out to me. She did not HAVE to open up emotionally to me and I wasn't expecting it. At first she was crying. Then I got her laughing and we had a great talk. She said at the end that she felt better after talking to me. I felt great!

So, I have to say there is some fog, because my wife is not the type to send emails like those. She used words she hates, but I saw what was going on. She wanted someone to love her and meet her needs. She almost seemed like she was a teenager again.

I understand. I don't have a problem talking to both. I'd like to hear what you both did and felt. What things you wish you hadn't done a did do to bring you back together. Having been there you could be a great deal of help for me as I know no one personally to go through what I am now. My email is yankeebluebbq@hotmail.com if you would like to leave your number and what time is best to call. Thanks

Just when I thought I was making some ground, I checked out a dating site and there is my wife again!!! Is this a sure sign she will not try reconciliation? I am trying so hard, but she wants to go out right away and find someone. Do I go into plan B now or do I still do A?

The following is a copy of how she describes herself and what she is looking for:

What they say about themselves:
I am an outgoing, fun-loving girl. I'm looking for friendship first-maybe more, depending on the person. I need someone to stimulate me mentally as well as physically. I am very busy with work, etc.

What they say about their dream mate:
He must keep me guessing and always interested. I need someone who can be my friend first, before anything else. A good sense of humor and honesty are also important.

I never had a problem stimulating her anyway!lol
I admit I messed up on honesty, but it appears I now have no chance.

Hey Al-

Sorry we didn't get back to you last night. Pretty busy getting Tinker Bell and Spiderman ready for Halloween <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

First of all, take about 20 deep breathes and CALM YOURSELF DOWN!!!!! You still sound frantic and desperate. Not a very attractive combination <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> At this rate you will burn yourself out in about 3 months. Then nothing good can happen!

Your situation is different from ours. If she is dating etc, you probably need to pay more attention to plan A and plan B. How did you find out about the dating sites? Did she use her real name? This is farther than I ever thought about going. O.K., in all honesty I thought about it, but just to make my H jealous. I would NEVER have gone out with someone. He was and is the only one I want.

She may just be "testing the waters". Trying to see what is out there. This is going to be very difficult for you. You are in competition with other people. You have got to make yourself the most attractive and kindest choice. My H was only competing with himself. He had to make himself more attractive than he was. Does that make any sense?

Did you tell your W about this web site? I only ask because although you are obviously trying very hard and love your W very much, if she is reading this she will think you sound desperate still. You need to CALM DOWN!!!!!!!!

When I really started noticing the changes in my H it was because he stopped following me around and started concentrating on himself. I wanted to know that he felt he could make it without me, but didn't want to be without me. Then I felt truely CHOSEN, not just a lifeline to hold on to for dear life. Are you catching my drift?

Will try to check back later!

Keep Smiling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yes, I understand. She has gone out with one guy already about 3 weeks ago. She called me and said she was lonely. I guess I don't understand why she is looking when we have a foundation and a family to build from. This lasy year and a half has been difficult, but she has noticed the differences in me.