Q for Cerri (NOT Sci Fi) - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

I didn't want to hijack KB96's thread, so I decided to open up a new topic.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />More and more studies are showing what I've known to be true for a long time. That if marriages are to succeed then the key is to motivate the husband to create the atmosphere his wife needs to be in love with him. Do that and all she needs in a little push in the right direction. The key is almost always with the husband.<hr /></blockquote>I agree with this, as far as the majority of the marriages is concerned, but what about those marriages where the reverse is true and the H has fallen head over heels in love with the OW, does the same answer apply with regards to his W? I ask because it seems that SF is not the sole EN being met by the OW.

This is consistent with what Gary Smalley says in his book Hidden keys to a loving and lasting Marriage:

"If a couple has been married for more than five years, any persistent disharmony in their marriage relationship is usually attributable to the husband's lack of understanding and applying genuine love."

"When a man treats his wife with gentleness, when he is loving and understanding, and when he does most of the things described in this book, she will respond to him on every level. She'll desire intimate conversations with him, she'll feel emotional love for him."

... TMCM, Smalley also says this about men who have affairs:

"A man having an affair: It's just too hard for him to blame himself for a frigid or nagging wife. He feels she was enough to drive him into another woman's arms."

..... this book is an oldie but a goodie.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks pep, while there is no excuse for an affair whether the WS is a man or a woman, the state of the marriage is the equal responsibility of BOTH spouses and wives are far from perfect as far as fulfilling their H's EN's. They to fall under the false assumption that they are satisfying their H's most important EN's when they really aren't.

[ July 10, 2003, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Ya Know,

I AM getting old. I remember when I was young and learning the advice was for WOMEN to be there for their H's. Good cooking, clean house, sex?? you bet! In short, if she catered to her hardworking H's needs he would be loving and faithful H AND she would be happy. A happy H makes a happy W right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

If I tried to peddle that these days I would be shot. Frankly in these "enlightened" times, Smalley's advice sounds just as stupid.

All of the worlds failures including marital ARE men's fault. To believe that would require that you believe that ALL that is good in the world is due to men as well. Further, it would mean that women really ARE as stereotyped, helpless without us guys gentle and guiding hand in everything from sports to matrimony. We are the key to all happiness.

Hello, I just don't think it works that way. I really don't. I don't know much but I do know three things.

1. There are no experts in unsolved problems.
2. Life is a team sport.
3. Credit is NOT a conserved quantity.

It seems to me #2 is key point here.

One can be as kind and understanding as one wants but it doesn't overcome disparate sex drives, or a women's total focus on her children and not her H. It doesn't overcome a women's lack of understanding of men, any more than a males lack of understanding for a woman.

I don't believe that life is 50/50, I believe it is 100/100 each doing their best to make life good for their partner. To say that it is men's fault WHENEVER a marriage fails is just dumb, especially if you believe that men and women do in fact see things differently.

Ok, I will get off of my soap box. I will just say one more thing. Just because someone writes a book, it doesn't make them an expert on what they are writing about or even right. However, I am sure that just as the old 40/50's approach this will work as well IF someone wants to take the full and total responsibility for a marriage. Heck it worked sometimes then, but obviously women didn't find it that good, or alot of the women's movement wouldn't have taken place.

Ok Ok! I am stepping off now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good night Ya'll.

JL

I agree with you JL, but even when the question arises of why did a man or a woman fall into an A? There seems to be more justification for the woman's A than for the man's. When a man has an affair, the general consensus is that it's because he's an animal, but when a woman has an affair, the general consensus leans towards because her EN's weren't met. Like all generalizations, it doesn't take into account that not all men and women fit into neet categories. For example, the case of the WH who falls in love with the OW, cannot be simply be explained away as just SF, for if that were the case, he would not leave his BW to go live with the OW.

Smalley explains his position more fully in the book than I'm doing here:

"I'm not suggesting that the husband is solely responsible for all the disharmony in a marriage. Day-to-day conflicts can arise because of his wife's physical exhaustion, health problems, or overloaded schedules."

TMCM .... ever read "women's" magazines? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Know what they are packed full of? RELATIONSHIP ADVICE AND TECHNIQUES <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ..... "How to please your man." "How to make yourself sexier for your man"...... and so on and so on.

Or.... go watch the kids play in a pre-school one afternoon . See what girls do as they play-act ....vs what boys do when they play-act.

Most of the time, girls play some sort of "house and/or mommie" .... and the boys fly-thru-the-air dressed in a super hero cape. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

(Happy memory..... I remember my son refusing to remove his "cape" for any reason what-so-ever! I think he wore it 24/7 for 2 weeks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Women (generally speaking) are keenly interested in studying ways to improve their relationships before there is trouble! It seems to be (mostly) hard-wired.

Smalley makes some exceptions of his theory (naturally). If a woman has prolonged anger in her life, if she has been brought up within a mostly bitter and resentful home, and if she has developed into a habitual liar ..... that combined with deep seated feelings of inferiority ..... Smalley says she has become what M. Scott Peck calls "Person of the lie." .... and there is no pleasing such a person despite making a great sacrifice of one's soul.

I am not argueing against your point .... but adding a sideways enrichment!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks again Pep, your post does indeed enrich.

But one thing I've noticed is that many (not all) women tend to send out covert signals of their unhappiness that most of the time fly over their H's heads. Let's face it we men are terrible mind readers, we need women to tell us straight out 'I am not happy. I have not been happy for a long time, and I am reaching the breaking point where I will not want to be married to you for much longer'[BTW men also need to be this honest when they talk to their W's about their unfulfilled EN's]. If the men then chose to disregard their wive's pleas for help, then they have nobody to blame for themselves. After all, it was not Sue's (from 'Surviving An Affair') unmet EN's that pushed her to have an affair with Greg, it was her dishonesty to Jon about her feelings of loneliness.

[ July 10, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Oh good not Sci Fi.... although I might do ok on a Star Wars trivia.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

First I agree that marriage is not 50/50. It's a 100/100.... or maybe even more like 110/110. One of the things Harley has been banging on lately, since before the release of Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders, is that the idea of "fair" has no place in marriage. It's what he calls the Renter attitude. That I'll stay in the marriage as long as I feel I'm getting out of it what I put into it. As opposed to I'll do whatever it takes, even if that means right now I put more effort into it, to make the marriage work.

I also agree that women are terrible (TERRIBLE!!) at being honest. Somehow we grow up with this idea that the man should be able to read our minds and know what we want, and if he doesn't then he's not the one for us.

OTOH men don't do well at hearing and responding to women when they are honest. I said those very things to my x "I'm horribly unhappy with ____ situation. I have been for a long time. I'm at the breaking point (any my exact words were... I'll never forget them...) If you choose to continue to walk on the path we've been on, you will walk alone, I can't do this any more."

I didn't say it once. Or twice. I said it repeatedly in every way possible that I could think of for FIFTEEN YEARS. And nothing changed.

Part of that is directly related to how we as men and women deal with life in general. Men compartmentalize... break things up into distinct areas. Women are whole atmosphere oriented. Neither is right or wrong... or better than the other. It's just the way it is.

So men see a problem, like an unhappy wife and their natural inclination is to fix it right now. Take her out to dinner over the weekend, spend time with her, and then when she is happy and smiling... Voila! Problem solved, life can return to normal. That's not wrong.... it's just different than what women need. And women see perceive it as not caring about them.

Ok..... I've like totally lost my train of thought here.....

So the non Sci-Fi question was??? Oh yeah when the WS is the H does the same apply because SF is not the only need being met....

No it's not.... in fact the needs that most likely were met in the beginning, the ones that led down the slippery slope were probably admiration and recreational companionship. Pretty rare that any two people just lock eyes and then run off and jump into bed!

So we have him meeting the need for conversation and her meeting the need for admiration (You're so wonderful, you understand me in a way my husband never did! You're so much fun to be around. You handled that sooo well...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) And then you add a little play time.... dinner, concert, ballgame, carnival.... and the stage is set for romance.

But back to my original assertion that men drive the success of a marriage (and it's not just me, there are lots of studies and writings that say much the same) Women take the emotional temperature of a R about every 10 minutes. Men do about twice a week. So in almost every case the wife will notice the emotional disconnect first.

In many cases.... not all, certainly, but enough.... the first thing that goes is time together as a couple. Some say it happens when they get married.... I think it happens when the wedding planning starts.... what a great way to wreck a wonderful relationship LOL plan a wedding! No time together, parents butting in, spending too much $$, and loads of conflict!!

Anyway... time together out the window. With that goes meeting her need for conversation and shortly thereafter affection. As she withdraws (because we know women are not good at being honest and men are not good at hearing it when she is...) sex becomes less frequent and admiration gets the axe too. And we all know how it plays out from there. Which one has the A is often dependant on opportunity and each person's ability to recognize the need to guard their LBnk.

BUT it almost always (not always.... I know that ...but almost...) begins when her needs are not met and her concerns are not heard. Or when there is a control issue of some sort and she withdraws. If I were writing the book, I would put protection as the number one emotional need.

Alright, well I feel like I rambled all over the place and made no sense at all.... must be the end of the week. Hit me with the rebuttal.... just please.... no Sci-Fi quotes!!

C

TMCM,

I agree with you, just had one comment.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> When a man has an affair, the general consensus is that it's because he's an animal, but when a woman has an affair, the general consensus leans towards because her EN's weren't met. <hr /></blockquote>Doesn't this really go back to a societal issue. Remember in High School; the guy who gets lucky all the time is a stud! The girls he gets it from are sluts! It's not fair but it's that old double-edged sword thing! I think there is a direct correlation!

Ok beat me up over that one, but that's my feelings and I need them validated! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

r0uter

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hit me with the rebuttal.... just please.... no Sci-Fi quotes!!<hr /></blockquote>Thanks Cerri. First I need to clarify that what sparked my 'Q for 2Long' thread was a conversation that I had with an old friend of mine. He is an atheist, like 2Long, and during our conversation he repeated the old saying 'If God didn't exist, we would have invented him/her'. This reminded me of this series of books from the late Sci Fi writter Frank Herbert (the author of the 'Dune' series) which dealt with this premise. And seeing that these forums do tend to have religious people posting religious oriented posts, I thought I seek out the one MB member (2Long) that reminded me of my friend, and who like yours truly, is familiar with Mr Herbert's books. But I later felt guilty in that I was using up valuable (and expensive) bandwith with a topic that is not related to the forums, so I did not continue posting to it.

Now back to the subject of this thread. You are absolutely, positively(need more adverbs? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) correct when you say that we men are TERRIBLE listeners, not only to our women but to ourselves as well. My point was to differentiate between the stereotypical WH who had a short term fling (ONS) from the WH who had an A and left his BW to go live with the OW. BOTH are bad but different 'animals' so to speak.

You are right rOuter, those ugly double standards have existed and unfortunately still continue to exist EXCEPT that for some time now, they have been started to be switched around (not eliminated) by those folks that subscribe to the culture of victimhood. It seems that society instead of eliminating double standards, strives to create new ones.

"Women tend to send out covert signals of their unhappiness that most of the time fly over their H's heads."

No kidding! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> This is correct.

Women have been "educated" NOT TO NAG by their H's!

How non-covert does it need to be?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Women have been "educated" NOT TO NAG by their H's!<hr /></blockquote>I'll take a naging W that is honest with me about what she is feeling, than a quiet W that is dishonest to me about her feelings, any day of the week. At least, if I decided to ignore her message, I would have nobody to blame but myself.

TMCM ....

Me too! (well sexes reversed, of course)

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'll take a naging W that is honest with me about what she is feeling, than a quiet W that is dishonest to me about her feelings, any day of the week. <hr /></blockquote>You are a truly wise man TMCM!!

I couldn't agree more! I have been trying for fifteen years to get my wife to tell me when something is wrong. I even asked her if it would help to write it down and leave it for me to find so she didn't have to tell me face-to-face!

r0uter

I even asked her if it would help to write it down and leave it for me to find so she didn't have to tell me face-to-face!

Great idea. I wife hates to nag

Oh Boy!

This IS going to be fun. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I love these types of discussions. The problem is that I only type about 90 words a minute (Uncorrected I might add), and I want to "talk" much faster.

If Cerri is saying that because men are the "weak" link in the relationship, that makes them the most important component of a successful marriage, I sort of agree.

However, I have come to a conclusion that while women are very interested in relationships, they just lousy at them. If you want an example go to the Preg portion of this site. If you want more, who gets in more arguements with their same sex friends, suffers slights with great indignity, cannot seem to come out an say the important things most of the time, RELISHES the role of victim, which is tough when the whole circle of friends wants to be a victim. Heck, the only way that can happen is if they can blame their victimhood on a NON-FEMALE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Since this is not Sci-fi, that leaves us guys.

Have I painted a bad enough picture? Let me continue. Who likes to play mental games and set traps to TEST their partners? Who then reacts to these unseen tests as if the partner knew there was a test?

I don't beleive the above described attributes suggests people skilled at relationships, just people that are sensitive to them.

Are men better? Yes and no. I am of the firm belief that most men are every bit as sensitive and aware as women are. We have as an example of relationship behavior our mothers, sisters, GF's, and even W's and don't want any part of it. So we play dumb.

Is it true that women are more aware? I don't know, but I do know that on a crowed side walk you will NOT see another man bump into another male or even female. Yet, you will see that happen constantly with females. They will cut you off, shut doors in your face, in short they are clueless about those around them. I can only presume that they feel "safe" in their behavior and males don't feel "safe". Yet, women are really the more vulenable. Does this make sense? Not really.

So where am I going?

Well, let's look at the rules for marriage here, and the tennents for this site. They set a standard of behavior a goal of meeting NEEDS as discussed and identified clearly. They describe how to become more sensitive in your relationships, and it works. Even more interestingly it works for males. Cerri herself has pointed out that men seem to like this approach as much or more than women.

Ever wonder why?

I will offer my theory. I think men do in fact want and need a good relationship with a female. They are very aware or as aware of relationship issues as women. The problem is they don't know how to really address them, and frankly the female model "stinks". All of the hoopla, drama, "guess what I am thinking", "you should know what is on my mind", etc just doesn't do it for men. So they simply stay away from relationship discussions, and the subject as a whole.

When offered a more "coherent" and reasonable approach to relationships, men do seem to do well. I would offer this site as an example. Even in the worst of situations, their W's affair, men do work on relationships. I just don't think that they were unaware of the need for a good relationship, I just think they had not seen a good model in actions before. Clearly, women haven't either.

So my point is that I suspect that men are indeed far more aware and sensitive than women think (frankly many women wouldn't treat their female friends as poorly as they do their H's), the issue comes down to the model to address the relationships and the typical female model just doesn't work for men, I don't think it works all that well for women either.

Yes, men and women are definitely different. We do see the same things differently, but I suspect that we are closer to each other in the area's of relationships than people think. Hence part of the problem.

Ok, I will stand back and let the flames rise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JL

JL

You are correct .... we women treat our H's poorly, while we are better at relationships with our friends.

I have, regretfully done this way too much.

Pep

I sure wish they taught me this relationship stuff back in high school, just maybe I wouldn't have gone thru hell because of my ignorance.

Maybe if we started a grass root movement to have Cerri or Dr Harley run for president next year. I definitely would cast my vote for either of them rather than for any of the two party candidates.

Coffeeman,

You comment struck a chord with me. I have ALWAYS been interested in relationships which is sort of funny given my field of expertise: physical sciences.

But, the reason was survival. My father was in the military and I attended roughly 14 different schools before I graduated from HS. I and my sisters were always the NEW kids and often more than once a year. So the options were two: either figure out how to make friends or be very very lonely. Figuring out how to make friends entailed studying what the local kids did and liked, and how they reacted to things.

Hence my interest to this day.

But, I must say that when I stumbled upon this site over 4 years ago, I really began to learn. It was an eye opener for sure. I knew what people were capable of mentally and physically, but not emotionally. I have a much deeper appreciation of people, male and female, from reading here and seeing how amazing they truely are.

I was going to offer you a post by Billibob, his latest, as to how women often don't "get" communications or even relationships, I don't think so. You can go read it there. He posts here on JFO. But, it does illustrate that many women are no better at relationships than men are.

Anyone ever notice that women have "emotions" and men have "egos"? Always thought that was interesting. While it does suggest that men and women come from a different perspective, it also says they both have "feelings". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Must go.

JL

Thanks JL, and I do agree with your statements BUT the truth is that unless men and women truly make an effort to learn about what makes a relationship happy and healthy, they are just as equally ignorant. In other words WE(men AND women) SUCK!

JL,

I agree with you that both women and men can either be enlightened or daft about emotional and interpersonal relationships. But I also agree that the key to getting marriages on track, seems to be getting the husband's on board. I don't pretend to know why it works, but it just does.

It reminds of a study that was done on children's reading skills. The study was conclusive in finding that the children with the best scores had fathers who read to them and were interested in reading. The mothers participation did not have nearly as profound of an effect.

In this same way, I really believe, that gender may have nothing to do with which spouse is better at relationships or more clueless...but the the role of a husband as perhaps a "leader" figure in the marriage may be pivotal. I simply don't know. I just know that recovery seems faster when the H is on board and committed to the process.

[ July 11, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But I also agree that the key to getting marriages on track, seems to be getting the husband's on board.<hr /></blockquote>What if the wives are not on board? That would make for very lonely husbands riding the marriage train, wouldn't it?. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ July 11, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Heck, Star,

Recovery is even better if Both parties are on board.

I think my heretical idea was not so much that men need to get on board, but that women need to understand why men stay away from relationship issues.

I am not saying that men don't LB. But, I am saying that women LB men in ways they don't understand. Just by the way they conduct their relationships makes most men want to stay away. Frankly, if it weren't for sex most men wouldn't want to be caught up in all of the drama, tears, etc. One cannot get anything done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So I agree that men seem to be unaware of the relationship, I would argue they are not. Just by training and socialization they know it is a bad place to be day in and day out.

Want an interesting example? Women when polled often express that they would rather work for men, than women. Why? Men are less emotional and more cut and dried about how they approach things.

This does not make men better. I guess I am reacting to the fact that people feel men apparently have control of the relationship and determine its success or failure.

I just don't buy it. What I do buy, is the an approach like MB, where both male and female learn how to handle a relationship that meets both of their needs. Not by manipulation, withholding needs, abuse, but simply recognizing that we each have needs and we are happier if they are met in a certain way. Then life is simple, you have to decide if you care. Plus, the POJA or something like it offers a template for negotiating what each wants and feels needs to be changed.

Men do buy into that easily. Just look at this site. Are men the leaders in the family? I was raised that way, but actually my father always felt my mother was. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Once when he was older, he expressed that she just allowed him to "look" like the leader. You must understand he was a highly decorated, high ranking military man that did LEAD thousands of men.

The reality was that they were a team,always had been. Met during WWII married after a VERY VERY short courtship and were happily married until his death. But, they agreed within a few day of meeting who would do what, what each expected and the set about meeting their promises.

If you look at MB it is sort of that way.

I do find it interesting that you cite the fathers reading to their children affect. I had not seen that, but it sort of counters what was passed around for a decade or two that divorce wasn't a big deal and the lack of a father in the family was at worst an inconvenience.

As I said before, I am a strong believer in team work, hence my objection to the current theory about men defining the success of the marriage. If you read here you sure see more than a few women messing them up, and blaming the H for these decisions seems counterproductive.

One thing I find also interesting as long as I am wasting time not working and wasting your time if you are reading. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Is that men often list sex as their #1 need. What isn't paid attention to is what they list next. What is important to them IF the sex need is being met? It seems admiration, affection, loyality all of these sit up there somewhere.

Look at a woman's needs, they aren't dissimilar, suggesting that neither really understands as much as everyone thinks. Hence it cannot just be the man's failure to understand that determines the marriage success.

I just think that while women are more sensitive to relationships they need to be taught as much as men about how to conduct a relationship. If they don't learn, then it fails as well, no matter how much she complains to her girl friends over lunch.

Must go. This is interesting. I cannot wait for Cerri to show up and blast me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the thoughts Star.

JL

JL.... tsk tsk tsk.... the only thing I can blast you for is thinking that I would....uhh..... blast you!!! LOL

Ok, my ^%$#@&*())_*&((&*^^% internet was a mess all afternoon... (thank you teenage son <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) So I'm so far behind I can see yesterday.

And oh!!! I want to play!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <boohooing> Doncha hate a whiner??

Later.... C

Cerri,

We'll wait for you to come out and play. Don't worry about that.

JL

CoffeeDude...

First I need to clarify that what sparked my 'Q for 2Long' thread

No! Really! It's ok..... I don't need to know!! <hands over ears lalalalalala> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

He is an atheist, like 2Long, and during our conversation he repeated the old saying 'If God didn't exist, we would have invented him/her'.

Drat, and now you sucked me in.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Now there's an interesting thought, and totally off the topic at hand. I wonder how the Pagan religions fit into that concept.... our entire cosmic view of Deity is very different from the Big Three. Fascinating thought....

[n]But I later felt guilty in that I was using up valuable (and expensive) bandwith with a topic that is not related to the forums, so I did not continue posting to it.[/b]

There's a sentiment that could be shared at oh..... say ...... EN... LOL

Now back to the subject of this thread. You are absolutely, positively(need more adverbs? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) correct when you say that we men are TERRIBLE listeners, not only to our women but to ourselves as well.

I don't know that I would say men are terrible listeners. (Did I say that?? I'm amending if I did.)I would say that men listen and respond differently than women do because their need for a certain type of response is different. AND that neither is better or worse, right or wrong... just different. And that if we are to make a long term heterosexual romantic relationship successful then we need to find a way to bridge the differences.

My point was to differentiate between the stereotypical WH who had a short term fling (ONS) from the WH who had an A and left his BW to go live with the OW. BOTH are bad but different 'animals' so to speak.

You know..... I don't know if I "get" the ONS thing. I get how it happens, but I'm not sure I get the why, outside of addiction which I have some experience with. Yes, they are different animals one being almost entirely about sex and the other being about needs.

You really think that the double standards are changing? That it's now considered "ok" for women because their needs are not being met? I hadn't thought of that. I guess I don't look at it that way so I hadn't considered it. Interesting thought..... I'll keep that in mind.

Pep.... I think the difference between nagging... which I would consider a demand and disrespect and being honest is all in how it's presented. So I could say, "Honey I'm really unhappy that the _____ is undone and I'm wondering what the plan is to address it," which is both honest and asking for negotiation.... or I could say... "I hate it when you sit around and watch tv and I have to take care of everything around here."

But the interesting studies that are coming out, and that I'm trying to get my hands on, show that men handle women's disrespect far easier than women handle men's AND that women who are forced to be respectful tend to just clam up and stuff their feelings rather than bring up issues that are bothering them. The upshot of the findings are that the most successful couples at addressing and resolving conflicts tend to me in relationships where the man is able to listen to, validate and soothe his wife.... even if she's out of line in the DD&A areas.... and then if they are able to work out a solution together.

I know it sounds and feels unfair.... it does to me and I'm on the female side of it.... but it's what some of new studies are showing. And it's what I see in the couples where I get to work with both partners.

But more than that, the problem is in getting wives to speak up and husbands to respond in a way that works for her.

JL...

No, I'm not saying men are the weak link... I'm saying that they are the key to marriage being successful. One might just as well argue that women are the weak link because they take far more time and energy to be happy in the M.

while women are very interested in relationships, they just lousy at them

LOL... lived with a teenage girl, have ya? But see, this goes back to the difference between men and women and how we perceive things. A woman might say that men are terrible at relationships because they don't go beyond the superficial sports and recreation connections. That there's no real depth. It's just not about being better or worse at something, it's about being different in what we need and how we react to our environments.

Women think that men are superficial and immature, and men think that women are catty and overly emotional. Now, all those things might very well be true... and even if it is that's not the point... the point is, if you want to live harmoniously with the opposite gender then you need to get what it is the other needs and then learn how to do it. Even if it seems totally unimportant to you.

I don't beleive the above described attributes suggests people skilled at relationships, just people that are sensitive to them.

I could come up with a list that describes men, but since you know that I could do that... I won't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I will offer my theory. I think men do in fact want and need a good relationship with a female. They are very aware or as aware of relationship issues as women. The problem is they don't know how to really address them, and frankly the female model "stinks". All of the hoopla, drama, "guess what I am thinking", "you should know what is on my mind", etc just doesn't do it for men. So they simply stay away from relationship discussions, and the subject as a whole.

Agree completely. I think the female model stinks too. (But then I tend to be rather confrontational rather than the "guess what I'm thinking," type.. LOL)

But it's not just that. Even when there is honest sharing that goes on and even real hearing and a real desire to make things better.... the actions that will accomplish that are foreign to us. Men don't do naturally the things that women need.

I have yet to hear a man say.... hey if she had sex with me three (four or seven, name your number) I'd be thrilled to talk with her all she needs. Never, doesn't happen. BUT the converse is true. Women tell me every day of the week, and they show it by how they fall into affairs, they are very happy to have sex with a man who meets their need for conversation (or affection or admiration... but usually it begins with conversation)

I just don't think that they were unaware of the need for a good relationship, I just think they had not seen a good model in actions before. Clearly, women haven't either.

AMEN to that!!

So my point is that I suspect that men are indeed far more aware and sensitive than women think

Oh no... I never meant to imply that they're not! I have to laugh. Every man I've ever worked with eventually says to me, "I'm such a sensitive guy," as if it's something to be embarassed about. Any woman who has ever raised a man child sees that wonderful sensitive being in the men around her, if she's willing to look closely enough.

My statement wasn't that men were less sensitive. But rather that their sensitivity doesn't tell them what women need, because their own needs are different. So they reach out and attempt to meet needs in a way that works for them but not for her and then become frustrated when it doesn't work.

C

[ July 11, 2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
Maybe if we started a grass root movement to have Cerri or Dr Harley run for president next year. I definitely would cast my vote for either of them rather than for any of the two party candidates.<hr /></blockquote>How about I run for pres and Harley can be my running mate? LOL LOL LOL.... My feminist roots just had to say that... But hey, I think we'd have quite the spread in religious leanings covered... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Cerri,

I will be back but I dont' have much time. However, one thing you said really facinated me. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> But the interesting studies that are coming out, and that I'm trying to get my hands on, show that men handle women's disrespect far easier than women handle men's AND that women who are forced to be respectful tend to just clam up and stuff their feelings rather than bring up issues that are bothering them. The upshot of the findings are that the most successful couples at addressing and resolving conflicts tend to me in relationships where the man is able to listen to, validate and soothe his wife.... even if she's out of line in the DD&A areas.... and then if they are able to work out a solution together.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, I have both boys and a girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> How did you guess???

The statement I put in bold really intriques me. Given that women are the more verbal (thats the legend anyway), and more supposedly more in tune with relationships why is this?

I know why men accept disrespect from women better than men. We are raised to. Heck, look at TV, women ARE NOT made fun of, men are all of the time by the women. It is a cultural thing really. Women can be "high maintinance" but men really are not expected to be.

But the other statement seems inconsistent with what is popularly stated. So what do you think?

JL

Huh... look at that, a whole hour and the darn computer is still hanging in there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

JL,

Recovery is even better if Both parties are on board.

I would have to say that recovery is only possible if both parties are on board.

I think my heretical idea was not so much that men need to get on board, but that women need to understand why men stay away from relationship issues.

No disagreement there.

Frankly, if it weren't for sex most men wouldn't want to be caught up in all of the drama, tears, etc. One cannot get anything done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But what we see here and the current studies don't bear that out. Many men (and women) stay in sexless or low sex marriages because they love their spouses. And, if it were just about sex, one could simply purchase it.

Want an interesting example? Women when polled often express that they would rather work for men, than women. Why? Men are less emotional and more cut and dried about how they approach things.

Is the why part of the poll? I don't know that I would rather work for a man or a woman. I think it would depend on the person.

I guess I am reacting to the fact that people feel men apparently have control of the relationship and determine its success or failure.

I just don't buy it. What I do buy, is the an approach like MB, where both male and female learn how to handle a relationship that meets both of their needs.

But even the great and wonderful Oz...er, uh... I mean Harley... buys it. He doesn't write it, but he talks about it all the time. As do others in the marriage research/saving industry. If you are going to be successful as a professional who works with couples you need to be able to motivate the husband. That's why the MB approach is written and presented the way it is. To be male friendly, right down to the colors and graphics used at this site.

I do find it interesting that you cite the fathers reading to their children affect. I had not seen that, but it sort of counters what was passed around for a decade or two that divorce wasn't a big deal and the lack of a father in the family was at worst an inconvenience.

There's another older study that demonstrates the male and female children's level of cooperation and participation in household chores is directly related to how much the father does in that regard.

Yeah, the old myths about divorce not affecting kids very deeply are pretty much being debunked as wishful fantasy.

As I said before, I am a strong believer in team work, hence my objection to the current theory about men defining the success of the marriage.

Yes, but not to confuse team work with fairness (which marriage isn't) or the amount of effort or work either partner needs to do. There are times when each will need to put out more effort than the other, but when all is said and done, the key to whether they succeed or fail will rest with the husband. Because the wife will only be willing to meet his needs when she feels safe and cared for.

If you read here you sure see more than a few women messing them up, and blaming the H for these decisions seems counterproductive.

Absolutely. There's no excuse for not doing the right thing yourself. It's not ok to place blame. If it's really not working and one's husband is way out of line, then the woman needs to get with the program and follow the steps. Honesty (not drama), attempt to negotiate, and seperation if it comes to that. As I said way earlier today, it's not 50/50 it's 110/110.

What isn't paid attention to is what they list next. What is important to them IF the sex need is being met? It seems admiration, affection, loyality all of these sit up there somewhere.

Generally it's a recreational partner, admiration, and attractive spouse.

I just think that while women are more sensitive to relationships they need to be taught as much as men about how to conduct a relationship.

DEFINITELY!!! Women need to act more, talk less, and learn to be honest in a way that isn't throwing the dishes around with the insults.

If they don't learn, then it fails as well, no matter how much she complains to her girl friends over lunch.

I hate whining. It accomplishes nothing.

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Just Learning:
Cerri,

I will be back but I dont' have much time. However, one thing you said really facinated me. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> But the interesting studies that are coming out, and that I'm trying to get my hands on, show that men handle women's disrespect far easier than women handle men's AND that women who are forced to be respectful tend to just clam up and stuff their feelings rather than bring up issues that are bothering them. The upshot of the findings are that the most successful couples at addressing and resolving conflicts tend to me in relationships where the man is able to listen to, validate and soothe his wife.... even if she's out of line in the DD&A areas.... and then if they are able to work out a solution together.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, I have both boys and a girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> How did you guess???

The statement I put in bold really intriques me. Given that women are the more verbal (thats the legend anyway), and more supposedly more in tune with relationships why is this?

I know why men accept disrespect from women better than men. We are raised to. Heck, look at TV, women ARE NOT made fun of, men are all of the time by the women. It is a cultural thing really. Women can be "high maintinance" but men really are not expected to be.

But the other statement seems inconsistent with what is popularly stated. So what do you think?

JL<hr /></blockquote>It is really interesting isn't it? And I do think it's fairly new research. Harley emailed a brief thought to me about it as new research very recently, that's why I'm trying to get the study myself. There are also some new studies out that show couples who go through some of the very popular premarital communication courses have a higher rate of divorce than those who don't, but that's a topic for a different day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sooooo.... why do I think that statement is true?

First I think because there is literally no good role model for honest communication in our culture. None of us are taught to say, "I feel____ about_____." Instead we make sarcastic comments, we whine, we demand, we are simply rude. So part of it is conditioning and lack of knowing any other way.

Because women are more emotionally volatile, shall we say, when they finally decide to address an issue I think (and this is from my own experience and observation only) that they tend to have the emotional impact of whatever is bugging them more in the forefront. So where a man can discuss a difficult issue cooly a woman would be far more likely to cry.

So the strength of the emotion on the surface could tend to obliterate her ability to be as cool and as respectful as the standard would call for. When she talks about the issue it will be an emotional event for her. If you then insist that the only way she can bring up things that are problematic is to do so in a way that is devoid of emotion she really struggle with it. And that struggle will result in choosing to say nothing at all.

Now, don't for a minute think that I'm suggesting women should be permitted to be screaming LBing maniacs. I'm not. I think that both sexes need to work their tushes off to learn to be honest and respectful at the same time. BUT what I am saying is that if she's trying to share something and the H calls her on every little nuance of demand or disrespect rather than hearing and responding to her problem, then she will simply refuse to discuss things that are important to her in the future.

The other interesting thing that I think is in this study is that if her H can do that.... listen and respond in a way that helps her solve whatever it is... then as she feels cared for and validated the disrespect will diminish on its own.

C

Why the big surprise that sexism exists in marriage counseling? Sexism is the direct result of well...sex! Like it or not, men being physically dominant does translate some way into the roles we play in life and in marriage. There are some differences....and it isn't in sensitivity or enlightment, that matter in how we respond to marriage and relationships. One of them is testosterone. You have it. We don't (or at least not as much). Men are usually physically larger and socialized completely differently. It isn't hard to understand why women respond so poorly to disrespect since most of the battering in this society is done by men, and unfortunate truth...but true none the less. Women are physically and often emotionally intimidated by men. Aside from that, socialization in this country rewards aggressiveness in men and passivity in women. So when women are disrespected, they tend to close down.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> DEFINITELY!!! Women need to act more, talk less, and learn to be honest in a way that isn't throwing the dishes around with the insults.
<hr /></blockquote>I thought this was a ploy to get new dishes.

Seriously, I have been troubled by some of the negative replys to some WS that have come here looking for help in rebuilding their M's.

I did not have a constructive way to respond to the negatives.

Before I post, I try to decide, is my post being helpful or hurtful? Am I projecting my pain, anger, bitterness towards the originator of the thread. If so, that vent belongs on my thread, because it is my vent. It takes alot for a WS to come here. That WS did not cause my pain, so they do not deserve my anger.

I don't like it when others say that a WS is a sick, amoral person. Even though I never cheated, in my own misery at one time, I thought about it. I thought about looking for someone to give me a little happiness. Because I thought it, does that make me sick? Does that mean I lack morals? NO, it does not. It means I thougth through the whole thing, and realized how bad my decision would be.

Nagging/ whining / disrespectful judgements .... in Pepperland 7/11/03

I decided it is appropriate to give a personal example and mea culpa here.

This AM I needed to use the toilet brush. It was missing from where I last placed it. I usually tuck the plastic cradle it rests in behind the toilet in the corner.

.... need brush .... can't find brush

I remember, Mr. P sometimes places the cradle-holder thingy under the sink cabinet. Not there.

I could leave the toilet a mess, but I hate to do that for the rest of the family. I dig under the sink, perhaps it's "fallen down and can't get up" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ........ nope.

I exit bathroom, say to H, "Where is the toilet bowl brush?"

H : "I'll get it for you."

Me: "OK, but where is it?"

H: "In the utility closet." (halfway through the house)

Me: "Why?"

H: "I put it there."

Me: "Why not leave it next to the toilet where it can be used without looking for it?"

H: "I'll get it for you."

Me: "I am not asking you to get it for me, I want to know why you don't leave it in the bathroom." (By now, I'm sure I have a nagging tone to my voice)

H: "I don't like the way it looks."

Me: "But, I need it in the bathroom, and if you weren't home, I'd have no way to know where it was." (still whiney and annoyed) "This isn't the first time you have moved the brush. Didn't you realize that I want it in the bathroom when you notice I keep it there? Why do I need the brush in the closet if the toilet is in the bathroom?"

.... this conversation about the stupid toilet bowl brush went on for about 10 minutes!

(Then I made many disrespectful judgements about my H .... all inside my head)

One of my pet peeves with my H's communication is this: I ask a specific question usually because I am seeking factual information so I can do something better, or make some necessary adjustments .... I need info.

H very often answers a slightly different question than the one I asked. I need to re-word the question several times before I finally get the information I requested. This makes me peevish.

There is no right or wrong going on here. Mostly differences in style.

I called H on my way to work, and made nice-nice with him verbally.

The bowl got cleaned, but I never know where he puts things or why he moves things around.

He's sort of an artist-type .... and you have to make allowances (OH GOLLY! a DJ right then and there)

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ep

[ July 11, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cerri:
How about I run for pres and Harley can be my running mate? LOL LOL LOL.... My feminist roots just had to say that... But hey, I think we'd have quite the spread in religious leanings covered... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>No problem with me with who is pres and who's the running mate. We need good people like you and Harley in the White House to help clean up the land of love busters and you two would fit that bill perfectly [Donald Fagen's 1982 song 'IGY' is playing in the background]. I'd have no problem gathering the caffeinated vote for ya. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Good Grief, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I see sooooo many things I want to respond to and no time. THis is getting interesting.

Cerri are you sort of telling me in a round about way that WHEN men decide to communicate that they are better communicators? And THAT is why we have to go second on getting our needs met, because women cannot deal with things as we can.

I find myself in the most uncomfortable position. As an unapologetic male chauvinist, a believer that women are more verbally skilled, and someone who is rather fond of women and their capabilities, I am being told that a RELATIONSHIP hinges on the male skills at communication, better ability at taking disrespect, and catering to the female.

Darn where is my club? I long for the days of the caveman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I really was trying to become a new age man, I mean I have a 20 year old D, a W of 27 years, and I was WRONG. My parents of the 20's, 30's, 40's, and 50's were right???? The man is the head of the house and responsible not only for financial stability but relationship stability as well?

Cerri, what are you telling me???

I cannot look back to who posted this, but I believe it was Star. You will find something very interesting. It was a study done on violence with in marriage. I used to have the website for it.

When questioned it was found that women resorted to physical violence against their H's more than their H's did to them. This was reported from a study of women. Even more interesting when lesbian relationships were also addressed it was found that the level of physical violence in a lesbian relationship was the same as in the hetrosexualual relationships.

I wish I could find the reference, but I just guess that is another bubble popped, along with a few others today. This stuff is very interesting.

I still maintain that the woman has a lot to say about the success of the marriage. I wonder if Harley is addressing it from the point of view of saving a marriage. Then I would suspect given men's antipathy to counseling and being told what to do, that you MUST get the men to buy in if recovery is going to be a reasonable expectation.

Got to go, keep posting you all. This is fancinating.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Just so you know....I think women are every bit as violent as men. But they don't send men to the hospital because of it anywhere near as often. That doesn't make them better than men at controlling their violence....only more inept at inflicting real harm. The fact is that men are physically bigger and stronger....and so it can be and often is intimidating to women both physically and emotionally. Loss of control....literally does something to your psyche.

Does this change the way women and men relate to eachother? You bet it does. And that isn't to say that SOME women are violent in a very scary way....but the scales are just incredibly tipped because of biology differences. My first husband once tried to force me into a car when he was angry. I slapped and clawed at him with all my might. He reacted by hitting me back. He ended up without a mark, I ended up with a fractured collar bone. He had far more power. Power counts JL....you guys have an edge. I remember the line from Spiderman that says "along with great power comes great responsibility". hehehhehehehehehe.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Got to go<hr /></blockquote>Yeah! yeah! c'mon JL admit that you are addicted to the intellectual kung fu with Cerri. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I remember the line from Spiderman that says "along with great power comes great responsibility".<hr /></blockquote>Star, remember that Spidey immediately followed that line up with "This is my gift, my curse."

[ July 11, 2003, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"This is my gift, my curse."
<hr /></blockquote>LOL....and it applies too doesn't it...hehehehe.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />LOL....and it applies too doesn't it...hehehehe.<hr /></blockquote>You've got it. Being a man OR a woman is both a gift AND a curse, rolled up in one.

JL.... not conceding, just too busy today!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Hi C -

Beter now! Still unsure, but better now... I may call Harley's today if you are listening...

Been gone for a week- so catching up on this thought provocative thread!!! Just thoughts I have as reading through.... For those of you who don't know me, I'm the bs, H had 2 A in other states while traveling on business, and I'm sure longer term A locally(he still in denial).. 2 boys, ages 2 & 4..
********

Cerri - Anyway... time together out the window. With that goes meeting her need for conversation and shortly thereafter affection. As she withdraws (because we know women are not good at being honest and men are not good at hearing it when she is...) sex becomes less frequent and admiration gets the axe too. And we all know how it plays out from there. Which one has the A is often dependant on opportunity and each person's ability to recognize the need to guard their LBnk.

Wow- this is exactly what happened in our marriage. Eeerie reading it. Ugh-- not proud moments...

More and more studies are showing what I've known to be true for a long time. That if marriages are to succeed then the key is to motivate the husband to create the atmosphere his wife needs to be in love with him. Do that and all she needs in a little push in the right direction. The key is almost always with the husband.

And this is exactly what I was looking for. But in looking- I did every stupid thing in the book. My parents aka Beaver Cleaver -made it look so easy. My dad was definitly the head of the house- but he always respected my mom; her thoughts were always part of the equation, and if mom felt really strong on something- he would step aside and follow her lead. He always protected her and made her feel safe. From the car she was driving, to the crowd of people they were in, or when they ran a grocery store together- he would just show up if someone my mom felt intimidated by walked in. He just knew, and would be there beside her. I never saw them argue. They would say- "too much to life, there's no time to argue! They still do everything together, every day, and have been married 50 years. They are side by side. I 100% believe in that 15 hours a week.
Obviously, I wanted the moon in my marriage, and I hadn't even done the work to get to the front door. I've learned so much here at MB....

I also think it's easier to keep a marriage on track- then try and put it back together after resentment, Affairs, dishonesty, and other baggage to deal with. If only I knew then......

Cerri and JL- You know..... I don't know if I "get" the ONS thing. I get how it happens, but I'm not sure I get the why, outside of addiction which I have some experience with. Yes, they are different animals one being almost entirely about sex and the other being about needs.

My thoughts on this - if it's not a sex addiction- which I don't think it was with my H, I think it is a quick need fix(I'm wonderful, I'm great, I can still get "picked up") and for the actual sex of it. I also think it's a way to "see if I can have an affair". Can I go through with it. Will the W find out- and if yes- it's just a quickie with no real emotional ties, etc.. I think it's sticking the toe in the water to see what comes next. And we know what happened next- a longer more committed A.

By Jl--- Want an interesting example? Women when polled often express that they would rather work for men, than women.

I have to agree with this. I worked in a company of about 15K employees. In my office was 150 very close knit workers. In my State about 10K employees. I worked with everyone in my state from the CEO to the entry level mill workers. And it was spoken outloud that women did not want to work for women. Now before you baste me- there is always the few swinging votes of course. I'm talking about majority. The reason- the women who climbed the coroporate ladder tried to be - well, like a man. They would try to be cut and dry, to the point, and all "work".. but with a twist.. Behind the scenes, they were whiney, back stabbing, and very insecure. They would tromp any woman they felt threatened by within 2 miles. Especially since my business was a "mans" business (timber company), they never felt comfortable in the role and were defensive and extremly unrespectful to other women. As the saying goes- when someone is being a jerk- stand back and look- 99% of the time they are overcompensating for an insecurity thus, being the jerk" I wish it wasn't so- but I saw it on a daily basis....

Why? Men are less emotional and more cut and dried about how they approach things.

I don't think this is the total reason- I think it's more security and respect. Men seem to have more respect for their workers then alot of women do. Women spent more time trying to "protect" their position, when men seemed to spend more time protecting their employees as they were secure in the job they were doing. The men who were disrespectful to their employees were the same men not doing a good job and knowing management was looking at them.. so blame the worker.

Back to marriage-- So- if a man is being a "good husband" then he has more time to protect his wife and children then the man who is spending his time "trying to look good" and find blame for his downfall?? Hmmmm............ Maybe this is for everyone. When you feel comfortable(confident?) in your role, you are better in your role and a better overall person? Just random thoughts....

Cerri and JL-- that women who are forced to be respectful tend to just clam up and stuff their feelings rather than bring up issues that are bothering them.

I'm a little confused on the "forced" part of this. But, if you say something to a man 12 times nicely and he blows you off, then you yell at him and he finally listens, it makes you feel "used".. He brought you down to low level- made you lose control. It reminds me of my 4.5 year old right now that is fighting me on everything and would be more than happy to see mom blow up even if it meant a spanking. In his eyes- he still "won". He "made" mom blow up. Well, with the 4 year old- I ignore him.. which works beautifully. He's not getting his way and I'm not buying into the tantrum. But guess what- this doesn't work with a man. Ignoring isn't the answer.. Yes, I'm learning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

2bm

A quote from the good Dr. himself:

"In general, women complain much more than men about the quality of their marriage. That's because women seem to have a better grasp of what a good marriage should look like. They let their husbands know how to create that marriage by improving affection, conversation, companionship, and sexual fulfillment. If their husbands cooperate, their marriage turns out to be great for both of them. But if the husband resists, it leaves them both unhappy."

ROTFLMAO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

C

cerri et al,

One thing I wanted to add was something SH told me during phone counseling, which relates to this subject. The discussion was generally about Plan A, but specifically about how men and women respond to having needs met. He told me that it was his experience during his many years of counseling, that when a woman's needs are met she responds by feeling prettier, sexier (more willing to engage in sex), and wanting to reciprocate by filling her H's needs. Men respond, he said, by wanting MORE and that it doesn't particularly encourage them to fill needs in response. He ended by saying exactly what we've been talking about here....that it's almost essential for success to have a husband who is open and willing to embrace these concepts....maybe this is why???? dunno.

---

[ July 16, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cerri:
A quote from the good Dr. himself:

"In general, women complain much more than men about the quality of their marriage. That's because women seem to have a better grasp of what a good marriage should look like. They let their husbands know how to create that marriage by improving affection, conversation, companionship, and sexual fulfillment. If their husbands cooperate, their marriage turns out to be great for both of them. But if the husband resists, it leaves them both unhappy."

ROTFLMAO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

C<hr /></blockquote>The problem I have with general statements like the above is that it MAY lead many married women to beleive in 'Hey I'm perfect, I don't have to change anything. He is the one that has to change' and while it may be true that the man may be the one that does have to change significantly, her complacency and refusal in not improving herself, MAY in the end, discourage her H and say to himself 'The he** with this, she is not worth it'.

I found out a long time ago that leading by example is a very powerful motivational tool in convincing others to do something I want.

I agree that motivating by example is best. But as Star said, men tend to want MORE and women respond by meeting needs....

So for a woman to lead by example i.e. meeting needs tends to not get her what she wants in the long run.

Sorry jumbled and rushed.... actually working today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

C

Complaining via love busters seldom achieves the desired effect.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
Complaining via love busters seldom achieves the desired effect.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, what I have found and what I imagine others who work with couples find is well is that very little of what women do achieves the desired result.

They meet needs in the beginning, hoping to *lead by example* (which is unconditional love in disguise)

When that doesn't work they move to complaints, which generally doesn't produce good results.

And from there they withdraw and don't meet needs. It's at that point the husband usually notices something is wrong and he begins to say all the things she was saying at the outset.... that they need to spend time together, he misses her, misses her conversation....etc.

Unfortunately, very often she is more irritated with him than anything at this, because it's the same message she was trying to get across for years. And by the time he feels what she felt long ago she's made a seperate life for herself. Career, friends, activities, hobbies and sadly, sometimes an affair.

The real problem for someone like me is to get women to take action sooner. While they still care, before they have lost the feelings of love and before they have an affair.

Complain... without LBers if possible. Attempt to negotiate.... a very, very foreign concept in romantic relationships.... and then LEAVE!!! Do Plan B while she still wants the marriage to work.

Nevertheless, studies are still showing that women who are forced to be respectful will simply stop bringing up issues. So the husband needs to decide if he's going to call her on every LBer or if he's going to hear the message behind it and make adjustments. If he does so, the LBers taper off dramatically.

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The real problem for someone like me is to get women to take action sooner. While they still care, before they have lost the feelings of love and before they have an affair.

Complain... without LBers if possible. Attempt to negotiate.... a very, very foreign concept in romantic relationships.... and then LEAVE!!! Do Plan B while she still wants the marriage to work.<hr /></blockquote>Ok then by your statement it seems that if women want to have the marriage they dream of, and their H's don't respond by having all their EN's needs met or 'leading by example' then what you are saying is that really falls on women to take action via Plan B.

Coffeeman,

Plan B is WAY better than waiting until the love bank is empty. You remember that article "why women leave men"....it seems that they can endure most anything besides feeling neglected and ignore. Under those circumstances, I firmly believe, that once a women leaves for neglect....she ain't coming back. If Plan B is the only way to prevent that, then I think it is far preferable to giving up entirely. Still, there are some steps that can be taken if it's early enough in the process. Radical Honesty for one can sometimes wake up a spouse. "Honey, I am so lonely I find myself attracted to the neighbor." I think Michelle Weiner's 180 list helps some in the event that filling needs doesn't get through and is far better than withdrawal. Women don't just withdraw....they begin to disappear. In response they either react strongly or sink deeper....their taker either comes out and says leave or has an affair! or their giver goes into a deep dark depression and the husband will likely have an affair. Either way....they both lose.

Starfish I'm not arguing your points or Cerri's, all I'm saying is that the initial premise of this thread revolved around Cerri's statement:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"More and more studies are showing what I've known to be true for a long time. That if marriages are to succeed then the key is to motivate the husband to create the atmosphere his wife needs to be in love with him. Do that and all she needs in a little push in the right direction. The key is almost always with the husband."<hr /></blockquote>But according to the last posts by you, Cerri, Steve Harley and Dr Harley (as well as numerous studies), meeting the H's EN's needs doesn't help the W in having her H respond in kind. Then in reality the key does not lie with the H but with the W because of what Cerri said in her last post:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"The real problem for someone like me is to get women to take action sooner. While they still care, before they have lost the feelings of love and before they have an affair.

Complain... without LBers if possible. Attempt to negotiate.... a very, very foreign concept in romantic relationships.... and then LEAVE!!! Do Plan B while she still wants the marriage to work."<hr /></blockquote>

True coffeeman....OR in the ability of the husband to fill his wife's needs before she feels compelled to move on. A woman's recourse if need-filling doesn't work has a far greater risk of ending the marriage. What is the husband risking by filling needs which DOES seem to work to bring the wives around (assuming she hasn't already reached the withdrawal/love bank empty stage?

CoffeeMan and Star...

Yes and yes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm a strong advocate of Plan B. Sooner rather than later in infidelity and proactively in neglect cases. Abuse.... asap.... especially physical. I have zero tolerance for physical abuse.

BUT, if she goes to Plan B... the key to saving the marriage is still with the husband's ability or willingness to recognize that he needs to make adjustments in order to meet her needs in a way that is fulfilling for her.

It may take a radical move on her part, such as PB, but the ultimate key to a successful marriage will still rest with him.

Now stop that!!! I need to work and not get sucked into the Hotel MB!!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

LOL.....see coffeman....she can't resist!!! If we keep talking without her we can suck her in all day hehehehheheh.

"resistance is futile!"

Coffeedude quoting C: "The real problem for someone like me is to get women to take action sooner. While they still care, before they have lost the feelings of love and before they have an affair.

Complain... without LBers if possible. Attempt to negotiate.... a very, very foreign concept in romantic relationships.... and then LEAVE!!! Do Plan B while she still wants the marriage to work."

Yes, that's true, but it's done in reaction to the husband NOT doing what it takes to make the marriage good for both of them. He is still the pivotal point. And my statement above is how to save the marriage when all I have is a wife who is at the end of her rope.... how do I deal with that situation?

More women seek and are willing to go to counseling than are men. More women buy and read books on relationships than men do. The problem is not reaching the women, it's either reaching the men OR getting women to take action before it's too late.

Checking out now..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

C

Star unfortunately it seems that if we accept the premise that it us guys that are the problem in a marriage and we are not prone to reciprocate by having all of our EN's met, then unfortunately it falls on the W to either accept the status quo and the risks it brings OR to leave and Plan B. Sure it's unfair and we men should reciprocate but if we can't or won't then if the W wants to have the marriage she dreams of, then she's going to have to be the one who gets the ball rolling via Plan B.

You know another ominous thing about all this is that it SEEMS to be that a man whose wife is having or had an affair, and is unremorseful or unwilling to go follow a marital recovery plan, is better off letting her go because he is facing a Sisyphus task.

[ July 16, 2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The problem is not reaching the women, it's either reaching the men OR getting women to take action before it's too late.<hr /></blockquote>But isn't the latter also 'reaching' the women?

Star unfortunately it seems that if we accept the premise that it us guys that are the problem in a marriage

I don't look at men as being the "problem" in the marriage....only reaching them as the "key" perhaps to solving the problems

and we are not prone to reciprocate by having all of our EN's met, then unfortunately it falls on the W to either accept the status quo and the risks it brings OR to leave and Plan B.

yes. But Plan B is a risky business....while filling needs is not. Still, you are right, if she cannot get a response by filling ENs she has very few alternatives.

Sure it's unfair and we men should reciprocate but if we can't or won't then if the W wants to have the marriage she dreams of, then she's going to have to be the one who gets the ball rolling via Plan B.

true again. But even then, as cerri says, the key to Plan B working is the H's willingness to be open to idea of changing his response and beginning to reciprocate.

You know the ominous thing about all this seems to be that a man whose wife is having or had an affair is better off letting her go because he is facing a Sisyphus task.

Sometimes I really think this is so. I have noticed, as I'm sure you have....that once a woman has an affair....it seems far more difficult to bring her back into the marriage. When you look at "why" women have affairs, how they view sex, and how much more emotional attachment is required, it's easy to see why the task is so much more difficult. Most men who have affairs, really don't want to leave their marriages.....most women who do....have usually been thinking about leaving for some time.

[ July 16, 2003, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Star*fish:

"But even then, as cerri says, the key to Plan B working is the H's willingness to be open to idea of changing his response and beginning to reciprocate."<hr /></blockquote>This can only be verified once Plan B has been implemented. Plan B can be considered the acid test in finding out if the W has a H that is 'open to the idea of changing his response' or a H that simply doesn't care about her at all. Maybe the reason why Cerri has difficulty in getting women to take action via Plan B, is that they are afraid of finding out that the truth happens to be the latter.

coffeman,

I think that is exactly why. I think most women realize that if the answer is "so what" or "accept me as I am and just deal with it" will undoubtedly mean (in irrefutable terms) that they will either have to suck it up and live unhappily, or leave their husbands and destroy their families.....neither of which are very attactive choices.

[ July 16, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

Evil and cruel you two..... evil and cruel!!! LOL

No, the reason I have trouble with women taking action is because women are "feeling" oriented and not action oriented. As such, we rely on our emotions and our instincts, which tell us to hang in there, meet needs, play "nice." And that eventually things will change. When they don't we leave.... after the feelings are gone, and therefor the motivation.... Because at that point we are driven once again by feelings... but this time the desire to escape the loneliness.

I would WAY rather have a man whose wife is having and A than vice versa. In part because women just want to whine about how terrible it is and men will actually take action. The same phenomena as above..... instinct and intuition keeps her in there letting him walk all over her thinking that if she's "good" enough he'll see the light and come back.

I have very few women clients, unless their husbands contacted me first and then she joined him. I did a lot of initial consults with women who just wanted to complain and have me say it was indeed terrible..... which is partly why I changed my fee structure.

The other thing I find is that if a BSH can do what it takes to end the A he can entice her back if he shows he's willing to make changes. Not fair? Of course not. But there really is no place for fair in marriage.

Oh, and I don't see men as the "problem" either, but as Star said, the key.

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by star*fish:
coffeman,

I think that is exactly why. I think most women realize that if the answer is "so what" or "except me as I am and just deal with it" will undoubtedly mean (in irrefutable terms) that they will either have to suck it up and live unhappily, or leave their husbands and destroy their families.....neither of which are very attactive choices.<hr /></blockquote>I have yet to encounter a husband who says those things. In fact quite the opposite. What they usually say is that they didn't know and would have done things differently if they did. All you have to do is read around the boards here to get that message loud and clear.... P, Hoffs, ALS, MTD to name just a very few. Hey, my X says it all the time.... said it to me the last time I saw him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .... and as I said waaay earlier, I was very explicit about how I felt and what I needed, for years.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cerri:
Evil and cruel you two..... evil and cruel!!! LOL<hr /></blockquote>We sure are, aren't we? It could be argued that we are as cruel as the man waving a twinkie in front of a fat man who is stuck in a window and trying sooo desperately to unstuck himself in order to get to the twinkie that is so close yet out of his grasp. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />No, the reason I have trouble with women taking action is because women are "feeling" oriented and not action oriented. As such, we rely on our emotions and our instincts, which tell us to hang in there, meet needs, play "nice." And that eventually things will change. When they don't we leave.... after the feelings are gone, and therefor the motivation.... Because at that point we are driven once again by feelings... but this time the desire to escape the loneliness.<hr /></blockquote>Boy I'm glad that you are a woman because if a man had said that, he'd soon find a lynching mob of angry females waiting for him just outside his door. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

But seriously (yeah right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), doesn't this imply that the MB model for women that want to improve their marriages actually doesn't really work for them? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I would WAY rather have a man whose wife is having and A than vice versa. In part because women just want to whine about how terrible it is and men will actually take action. The same phenomena as above..... instinct and intuition keeps her in there letting him walk all over her thinking that if she's "good" enough he'll see the light and come back.

I have very few women clients, unless their husbands contacted me first and then she joined him. I did a lot of initial consults with women who just wanted to complain and have me say it was indeed terrible..... which is partly why I changed my fee structure.<hr /></blockquote>You would think that this would not be the case from the gender that is legendary for putting a lot of importance on relationship issues.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The other thing I find is that if a BSH can do what it takes to end the A he can entice her back if he shows he's willing to make changes. Not fair? Of course not. But there really is no place for fair in marriage.<hr /></blockquote>I can see this being possible if you have FWW's like Jen Brown, lost in tx, autumnday, recommitted, forever sorry, etc. that are remorseful and WANT to save their marriages BUT not if you have an unremorseful WW's like those of ALS, hurting12, rookie, rOuter, etc. The latter ones make the efforts of the BH to save the marriage a truly Sisyphus task.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Oh, and I don't see men as the "problem" either, but as Star said, the key.

C<hr /></blockquote>A rusty key that needs polishing and maybe a little WD-40 sprayed on to improve the chances of unlocking the door. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

So Cerri, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What you are saying is that us guys with our superior ability to detach and discuss things with less emotion are the lynchpin to this whole thing. Right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You last comment about you telling your H what you needed struck a thought in me. I thought I would run it by you.

It seems to me that I have heard many women on this site say: "I told him I wasn't happy. I told him what I wanted. I constantly told him what he needed to do."

You know what I mean? Well, it seems to me being a guy, what they didn't "tell him" was WHY .

For a guy, just being "told" may not be it. Neither does "I'm not happy" My response OK so deal with it, because I know being happy is primarily an individual thing. But what I would need to HEAR was WHY.

I think a subtle thing that is in Harley's books and even in the articles here, is that he does provide a WHY. THen men do respond.

A lot of the earlier statements sound like "demands" or simply "disrespectful judgements".

I found that interesting the statement that if women meet men's needs they simply want MORE, but somehow if men meet women's needs they respond and meet the men's needs.

This doesn't seem to square with what I read on this board. I guess I am old fashioned but men go to work every day to meet the families needs and their spouses needs and most of these guys have "jobs" not "positions" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Yet, somehow that doesn't count?? That is what men ask. The answer is NO, but the question remains: WHY?.

I really do think we are getting far from the original question, but I still don't believe that on average the normal marriage depends solely on the male. I will buy that recovery of a damaged marriage does often depend on the male, because of the less interest in relationships, no matter our superior skills in communications. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The real thing in my mind is that this is often put into the "which came first the chicken or the egg" when in fact the answer is the rooster. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

In another words it is NOT an either or situation, but has many more dimensions to it, and attempts to pin it on the female or the male may work in specific cases, but not in general.

But, Cerri I will admit that most of us guys would rather do anything than hear "we have to talk."

Well, I must go, but I thought Cerri needed a break from real work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

[It could be argued that we are as cruel as the man waving a twinkie in front of a fat man

Are you calling me a fat man????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> LOL I'll let you know I HAVE FOOD ISSUES!!!!

Boy I'm glad that you are a woman because if a man had said that, he'd soon find a lynching mob of angry females waiting for him just outside his door. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Yeah, I know. Which is why I don't usually say it publically... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> There goes the Sagitarius foot in the mouth again.... <sigh>

But seriously (yeah right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), doesn't this imply that the MB model for women that want to improve their marriages actually doesn't really work for them? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

MB IS WRITTEN AND DESIGNED IN A WAY THAT IS MOST LIKELY TO REACH MEN.

Having said that, which I know doesn't answer the questions... yes it will work for women, IF they are willing to use the entire program and not just the faux Plan A concept that is bandied about on the boards.

You would think that this would not be the case from the gender that is legendary for putting a lot of importance on relationship issues.

I don't see the disconnect. Sure women might put more emphasis on relationships.... but it's on the feeling as opposed to the action end. Women want to TALK about how it feels and to TALK about what they should do.... not the same as doing something.

I can see this being possible if you have FWW's like Jen Brown, lost in tx, autumnday, recommitted, forever sorry, etc. that are remorseful and WANT to save their marriages BUT not if you have an unremorseful WW's like those of ALS, hurting12, rookie, rOuter, etc. The latter ones make the efforts of the BH to save the marriage a truly Sisyphus task. [b]

Agreed, they do. But I still have better success with BH's the BW's. Once in a while I get a BW who is willing to take action. But not nearly as often. It could be just the fact that I'm a woman and that men feel they relate to my knowledge of women and therefore are willing to trust me.... I can't test that idea without changing gender. And that women see me as another female confidante.... I really don't know. But I see it here too, that women don't want to take action because it doesn't "feel" right.

I think that's why MWD is so popular with women... she writes in feeling words. Harley doesn't.... purposely. MB is geared toward men.

[b]A rusty key that needs polishing and maybe a little WD-40 sprayed on to improve the chances of unlocking the door. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Yeah..... but when all is said and done.... ya'll are pretty cute. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Coffeeman,
Really good thread. I am putting it on my list of recommend reading for people with these kinds of questions.

Just so you know, I think you are doing a great job on MB. I don't think I could dupilicte what you do. ( OK, Star too, and cerri already knows I think a lot of her.)

Many, many people owe their sanity to TMCman, keep it up.

I have been reading this thread, and every time I think of a comment, I come back and it's already been said. Perhaps I'll just keep reading.

SS

Was wondering when you'd show up, JL.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What you are saying is that us guys with our superior ability to detach and discuss things with less emotion are the lynchpin to this whole thing. Right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Mmmmm.... sort of. I'm saying that we need you to meet our needs, the ones that are important to us... if we are to be able emotionally to continue to meet yours.

You know what I mean? Well, it seems to me being a guy, what they didn't "tell him" was WHY .

Interesting..... I can't say that I could say for sure one way or the other. I did say that I was lonely, that I wanted the kids to have a deeper R with him, that I missed having a parter... does that count as why?

I think a subtle thing that is in Harley's books and even in the articles here, is that he does provide a WHY. THen men do respond.

I think Harley does a really good job of pointing out that what men and women need to feel fulfilled is different and that we each need to recognize and respond to that.

I found that interesting the statement that if women meet men's needs they simply want MORE, but somehow if men meet women's needs they respond and meet the men's needs.

This doesn't seem to square with what I read on this board. I guess I am old fashioned but men go to work every day to meet the families needs and their spouses needs and most of these guys have "jobs" not "positions" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Yet, somehow that doesn't count?? That is what men ask. The answer is NO, but the question remains: WHY?.

Because having a job and a paycheck does not meet the need for conversation or affection or family commitment. It's the same as the woman who says.... but I look good and keep a clean house.... sex shouldn't be that important. Because it's not to her.

I really do think we are getting far from the original question, but I still don't believe that on average the normal marriage depends solely on the male.

Of course not. But women's ability to meet men's needs is dependent on getting theirs met. And it takes more time and effort to meet women's needs than it does men's. That's why men are the key.... they need to put in more energy to meet needs they don't understand in a way that doesn't make sense in how they view the world.

Women KNOW they need to look good. It's not escapable in our culture. Nor is sex and the fact that men need and want a good sexual relationship. Our media is saturated with it. But where is the accompanying pressure to be a fabulous conversationalist?

But, Cerri I will admit that most of us guys would rather do anything than hear "we have to talk."

And why would that be? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Cerri,

You know I am pulling your leg on some of this. But, knowing your femenist leanings, I do find yours and even Harley's responses interesting.

My point in this is IF men are really the ones that have to sort of lead things, then don't you think what men are hearing from the female activists (that is really all that get the air time)is counter productive?

I am serious. I have two boys, and frankly the messages they hear is NOT what you or I would suggest is a good thing. It makes the oldest feel he has little or at best 50% responsibility for things, when in fact, he has more. It means that he believes that he, as a male, is NOT expected to communicate well, or even be expected to "get it."

It is NOT the message I nor his mother want to send, and it surely wasn't the message I was given why back in the 50's and 60's as I entered teenage years and twenties.

I was raised with "if Momma ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy." But in this enlightened age where women are every bit as good as men, and better in relationships, the message that the male needs to be the leader is sort of lost.

You also said <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Interesting..... I can't say that I could say for sure one way or the other. I did say that I was lonely, that I wanted the kids to have a deeper R with him, that I missed having a parter... does that count as why?<hr /></blockquote>Short answer: NO. It really didn't or wouldn't address the WHY? Questions. Read your statement, it is all "I" wanted. While it should be or maybe self-evident that the kids having a deeper R with him, it is not to him. Most men were not raised with that. I surely wasn't. My father explained to me early on: His job was to support the family. His job was to train me and make sure I would be an effect citizen and have advantages he didn't. His job was to set a good example for me, by doing his best and working hard. His job was NOT to be my friend.

His feeling was that IF we became good friends once I grew up, great, but HIS job was to make me a productive human being and someone HE would enjoy being around. He was successful in his goals AND we did become best of friends when I grew up.

If your H had this model, then you were going to have to do more than just state what you did to change his approach to things. Further, in the closer relationship statement you suggest he didn't love them. That is what I would have heard. I know that isn't what you meant, but do you see what I am talking about.

It seems to me that it takes someone very skilled to convince women to approach things differently and then get their H's to understand the WHY of things. As you say, Harley's approach works for males and females, but he is aware of the males less than keen interest in relationships.

Interestingly, YOU are very skilled at these things. If you can convince women that they need to provide the WHY before the Plan B or affair, or whatever occurs it will save a lot of people pain. After these events the WHY simply "I don't want to lose her." But,that won't rebuild the marriage, it just opens the door for the other WHY's?

My opinion anyway.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

I found that interesting the statement that if women meet men's needs they simply want MORE, but somehow if men meet women's needs they respond and meet the men's needs.

This doesn't seem to square with what I read on this board. I guess I am old fashioned but men go to work every day to meet the families needs and their spouses needs and most of these guys have "jobs" not "positions" [Smile] . Yet, somehow that doesn't count?? That is what men ask. The answer is NO, but the question remains: WHY?.

Because having a job and a paycheck does not meet the need for conversation or affection or family commitment. It's the same as the woman who says.... but I look good and keep a clean house.... sex shouldn't be that important. Because it's not to her.<hr /></blockquote>You are saying that family support isn't important? I don't buy that. Look at all the mothers suggesting to their daughters that it is just as easy to love a rich man as a poor man. Or asking what the "young man's prospects are". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But you see what you pointed out was the needs, but not the WHY doing what we are taught: bringing home the bread is NOT ENOUGH. WHY isn't enough? That is what the men need to understand. I understand the disconnect, as I do about women and sex, BUT what I am saying is that men probably need to know WHY because "feelings" are not our primary method of addressing problems.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I really do think we are getting far from the original question, but I still don't believe that on average the normal marriage depends solely on the male.

Of course not. But women's ability to meet men's needs is dependent on getting theirs met. And it takes more time and effort to meet women's needs than it does men's. That's why men are the key.... they need to put in more energy to meet needs they don't understand in a way that doesn't make sense in how they view the world.<hr /></blockquote>Ah! you have said it. We don't understand and they don't make sense to us. So is it too much to ask that the female in question take the time, to quit "feeling" sorry for herself and learn to express things to us so that we do intellectually understand these things even if we don't emotionally? That is my point.

That is why I think men often don't "hear" these cries for help from the W. We don't recognize them, although in plain english they seem obvious. So does a males thinking (TO ME) but clearly not to a lot of women.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Women KNOW they need to look good. It's not escapable in our culture.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, other women tell them they do.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Nor is sex and the fact that men need and want a good sexual relationship. Our media is saturated with it. But where is the accompanying pressure to be a fabulous conversationalist?<hr /></blockquote>I got your fabulous conversationalist right here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think women need to learn to talk about sex, cars, and sports, then they would find men to be FABULOUS conversationalists. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seriously, there is a point I am trying to make. Women, talk. They often don't need feedback. She talks, and he says "yes dear" and the conversation continues.

But, really men learn to shut it off, and then when it is serious, they aren't listening. It could be that women need to learn to talk to men, not just expect them to speak the women's language.

Which brings me back to the issue as to who really holds the controls. It isn't as obvious to me.

Oh! and why is that women's needs are harder to meet? Is this just more of the aculturation of women that they can be "high maintenance"? That they believe they are more complex so they act that way. It is also true that men are trained to act in simple ways, when inside things are more complex than it appears women are aware of. So I guess it cuts both ways. Men won't admit to emotional pain, and women flourish in discussing it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But, Cerri I will admit that most of us guys would rather do anything than hear "we have to talk."

And why would that be? [Wink]
<hr /></blockquote>Conditioned reflex is my answer and I am sticking to it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I guess what I am thinking and trying to articulate is that I do see this as both genders having to go beyond the stereotypes that society puts out, in order for a marriage to be successful. If it truely really depends predominately on men, then the current depiction of gender equality needs to be changed a bit.

Do you see my quantary. I don't buy gender equality. I never have, and I will die never believing it. Because I KNOW that equality is a mathematical concept, and is NOT found in nature. At best balance is acheived if only transiently, but what is often found is symbiosis. If people recognize that, and I believe Harley does with his concept that men and women have different needs, then it is imparitive that both males and females learn and respect the why's and the wherefore's of the opposite gender.

Ok, off of the soapbox. Time to get Cerri out of her box again.

This is indeed interesting Cerri, Coffeeman, Star, and others. I hope I haven't made you too offended with my comments.

JL

[ July 16, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]

JL,

Just a quick question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> If you didn't know why drinking a glass of water cures hiccups, would you refuse to drink it, even if you knew it worked? I don't see that this applies to all the other things in men's lives is what I'm saying. I feel certain that my husband (who is not a car dude) would change the oil in the car, whether he knew "why" it was a good idea or not, because he does know the consequences of not doing it. Isn't the fact that things are worsening in the marital environment when needs are not being met enough of a "why?"

There is something that all of us guys forget and that is that there was no way in heck that our W's would have ever married us if we had not first satisfied their most important EN's while we were dating them. I don't care what era we're talking about, men have always courted women and practically no woman ever gave herself to a man that had not satisfied her most important EN's. Once we H's(and to some extent our W's as well) get married, we tend to stop the role of lover that did all the romantic things for their women that are being talked about over at onlyUcan's simple things to turn your wife on(non sexual) . I beleive that if we guys told each other to take care of our W's for if not we might loose them, few of us would find ourselves with a walk away wife or a WW. If this is what Cerri meant by men being the key to a succesful marriage then I have to agree.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />still seeking:

"Many, many people owe their sanity to TMCman, keep it up."<hr /></blockquote>SS thank you very much for those kind words, although there are many folks here that would say totally the opposite but I don't care since I always send them my army of angry, screaming baboons to keep them up at nights. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

STar,

You asked <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I feel certain that my husband (who is not a car dude) would change the oil in the car, whether he knew "why" it was a good idea or not, because he does know the consequences of not doing it. Isn't the fact that things are worsening in the marital environment when needs are not being met enough of a "why?"
<hr /></blockquote>Short answer NO. Need data, look at all of the women complaining and not getting anywhere. THe data is self-eveident, it is not enough of a WHY.

I was thinking about this as I drove over to pick up my other computer. You see men know machines specifically cars will breakdown if they are not lubricated. We know WHY we put oil in the car.

But, what people are forgetting, is that most people and specifically women are brought up with the romantic notion of marriage. It is ubiquitous in our society. Guess what? Men are too.

Even the concept of vows and unconditional love are common. So why would he expect the worsening marriage environment to cause a breakdown? Didn't she promise "for better or worse", "sickness and health" ?

If my car is running poorly I may not know WHY it is, I just know that it is. So do I gut it out and try to make it home or do I pull into a repair place I don't know and get it fixed (maybe if they are good, not if they are not, and spend money to find out)?

When a woman says "she would like her H to have a deeper relationship with their child", what does that mean? Frankly, I don't have a clue what it would mean. I am already doing the best I can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

When a woman sees we need to communicate more, what does that mean? More of "then she said... and then I told her..., and did you know that the Jones are having problems..." is that communications? I don't think so. I think it is real life soap opera stuff that women find intertaining, and I don't really.

Or does it mean, we don't see enough of each other and I feel very uncomfortable not knowing what you are thinking. I worry that our marriage is going to end if I don't know what you think and how you view me as a W. Now THAT is communications. Or at least a request coupled with a WHY, I should talk about this topic.

You must remember that the concept of and the articulation of "needs not being met" is unique to this site, and is not taught to men or women when they marry. Further, society suggests that if men can make enough, and buy her a new diamond ring every now and then, "She will love this man." All he has to do is shout that he loves her, and give her a ring, right??

Someone posted about their parents marriage and how her father always took care of her mother and they have been married for 50 years. The telling comment was that she didn't really notice what her father was doing. She took him for granted. If she can take him for granted, don't you think it might miss the notice of men AND women what it takes for a good marriage? I do.

You see it seems to me this site is about addressing ASSUMPTIONS that people make about: romantic love, committed love, what makes people happy, how we do and should communicate, unconditional love, and the WHY we should challenge these assumptions. I don't think people are motivated by scare tactics, anymore than speed limits really slow people down.

People will slow down when they know WHY they have to. They will address and listen to their spouse when they know WHY they need to. Why should I learn another language (in this case female speak)? Why should a W learn another language (male speak)?

So I guess you could lay this all at the doorstep of the male of the species, but my guess if you do, it won't help. If we thought what we were doing was wrong, we would have already changed. So, if females want us to change and become "sensitive new age men" we will need to know why and then see some tangible result or at least have hope that we will.

You see you have made another assumption. If a man marries a women and their sex life is great, then children come and the sex life goes down the tubes, and then she works or has more kids and the sex life goes further down the tubes, why should he believe that he can affect this change for the worse in his life? Why?

We are NOT trained to believe that we can change women only women are trained to beleive that they can change men.

So the question comes back, who is in control here? Most men don't think they are. Heck, we are told we are NOT. There is a book that has been discussed many times on this site. I don't remember the name: The submissive W? The something W, and apparently the theme is that if you let men know that they are in control of the marriage they will do a better job. Apparently,it is NOT high on the feminist agenda. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, maybe what Harley, Cerri, and even Coffeeman are saying is that women need to tell men they do have control of things, more than they ever thought.

Could be. But, I still think people only change when they know WHY they should, and we often make ASSUMPTIONS about our spouses and how marriages work that are not warrented. If you buy that, then I think it rests with BOTH of partners to make this work. Perhaps the woman explains WHY, and the H then responds appropriately. I don't know.

OH! well must get back to work.

God Bless,

JL

............but I don't care since I always send them my army of angry, screaming baboons to keep them up at nights.

That would explain what happens over at my neighbors house some nights. I always wondered about that.

SS

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Just Learning:

"But, I still think people only change when they know WHY they should, and we often make ASSUMPTIONS about our spouses and how marriages work that are not warrented.<hr /></blockquote>Sadly history has shown that the vast majority of people only change or attempt to change when a crisis is already upon them. For example somebody can tell us why reading Harley's books and implementing their principles will enrich our marriages and our individual lives, but sadly we won't implement them because we don't feel the immediate need to do so UNTIL we have a crisis on our hands like infidelity. Human beings are not proactive but reactive creatures by nature.

[ July 16, 2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Coffeeman,

True human beings are not proactive by nature. Which then leaves us with the issue of men and women and who holds the key to relationships. Some are saying men do, but most of our cultural training is not be focused on them to the extent that women are trained to be focused on them.

I personally think it is both, but if it is believed that men do hold the key and must lead, then women probably do need to explain WHY better than: "because I said so." Our mother's used to say that, and we may love them, but we wanted away from them as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

See what I mean? I really do believe it is a educational issue, or at least one that needs to occur at the point of marriage, not after the affair.

Of course, this whole thread has been slanted toward keeping women happy and in the marriage, but we know that men have as many affairs. So here it must cut both ways.

Oh Well. I have said my piece.

JL

In an ideal and just world, BOTH men and women would share the load equally with regards to the physical and emotional requirements of their relationships, unfortunately that world doesn't exists. If we become obsessed with fairness, we risk ending up alone and bitter in the end. No relationship is always fair to both parties.

I beleive it has been Cerri who has said that one of the differences between men and women is that men check the temperature of their relationships every month or two while women check the temperature of their relationships every 10 minutes. If this is so, then women do tend to be more needy of emotional support from their H's especially when they are feeling insecure about their relationship with their men. Remember that women do tend to be more insecure than men with regards to their looks and other women. On the surface this may appear chauvinistic and an attempt to infantilize women, but we have to toss erroneous PC beleifs to the side and acknowledge how dangerous it is for H's to dismiss their W's insecurities and how vulnerable they become to the attentions of an OM because of it.

Coffeeman,

I don't believe in equality when it comes to life forms, carbon based or otherwise. Men will value what they understand. I believe if it is the female of the species that is so insecure, then it is in their best interest to explain to the male of the species what they needs and WHY. Hence, their role is pivotal. The male can only REACT, if indeed he is as you state.

JL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Just Learning:

Men will value what they understand.<hr /></blockquote>Not always, and many times a lot of us will value and understand what we had until we loose it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I believe if it is the female of the species that is so insecure, then it is in their best interest to explain to the male of the species what they needs and WHY. Hence, their role is pivotal. The male can only REACT, if indeed he is as you state.

JL<hr /></blockquote>Many women have explained to their men why they are insecure and their men have simply chosen to dismiss them because they do not take their insecurities as a serious threat to their relationships. Just remember all those male BS's that have come here and started their stories with 'I thought that we had a happy marriage.....' and after further digging we discover that there were danger signs that they chose to ignore. Could the women have done a better job of communicating their insecurities to their men?, of course they could have but even then there is no guarantee that their H's would have paid attention to them anyway, especially if they had a history of dismissing them in the first place.

One of the things we don't discuss (much) are the hundreds of thousands of people that don't come here, that don't have A's and that live out their lives married. Happily married? I can't answer that but I can look around and describe what I see.

I see people I know that appear to practice unconditional love. My neighboor three doors down, his wife terminally ill. She died a year ago Christmas time, but he cared for her for years. I don't think many of his needs were met, but he was very loyal, and I know him well enough to say that.

What do the others do that stay together but that don't study marriage, or learn what we learn here? Do they do it all by them selves - learn to meet needs by trial and error?

Do they grin and bear it?

Are there some people that have small takers, and large givers and they can get by?

I agree that it is easier to be in love when needs are met, but what do all those other folks do that don't know about meeting needs?

Does this even fit on this thread?

SS

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Need data, look at all of the women complaining and not getting anywhere. THe data is self-eveident, it is not enough of a WHY.
<hr /></blockquote>JL,

I think there is a great many women who do more than complain. I certainly did. I had many many calm, intelligent discussions with my husband about how his job, recreational independence, and our lack of time together, were affecting our marriage. We have spent literally years apart for his career and hobbies, and it took a massive toll. He listened, he understood, he promised things would change (he always seemed sincere). But they never did. He would promise me the moon. But all the while, our marriage was becoming more and more vulnerable, and his job continued to keep him away from home. Eventually, he went on a business trip and hired a prostitute while I was pregnant. It wasn't because he didn't get sex. It was because it was easy.

I don't believe that men aren't told why. The fact that they don't hear it, doesn't mean that it was left unsaid. I think that men don't BELIEVE that women will actually leave at some point. When I told my husband I was leaving him, he was shocked. It's still a mystery to me how, but he was shocked. I'm just not a naggy and whiney complainer....I know I explained what was happening to my feelings for him clearly and calmly...many many times. All he did was get mad usually. He told me that that's "just the way things are" and he wanted me to like it. But when I finally started making serious plans to leave, he was shocked because he was pretty happy with the status quo. He had his career, he had beautiful well cared for children, I was still meeting needs when he was home, he went where he wanted and when he wanted. I hear this scenario repeated many times on this board.

Believe me, I didn't say anything like "we need to communicate more." I said "Please come and talk to me, I want to ask you something. The children are unhappy about spending so little time with you. Do you think it might be possible to plan something with the boys this weekend? He would say "sure" and sometimes, he'd even do it. But he wouldn't initiate it again until 6 months down the road when I asked him if he could again.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So I guess you could lay this all at the doorstep of the male of the species, but my guess if you do, it won't help. If we thought what we were doing was wrong, we would have already changed. So, if females want us to change and become "sensitive new age men" we will need to know why and then see some tangible result or at least have hope that we will.
<hr /></blockquote>We all know successful marriages require the effort of both partners, but I seriously doubt that it's lack of information that is affecting the efforts of men. Men seem to understand the relationship between hard work and results in every other aspect of their lives....but when it comes to marriage....somehow they don't see it. They work very hard at their jobs and they can see results. They get paid. They can support their families. They get admiration. And I think if they viewed marriage as another part of their job (as a working partner in the relationship), they might see the connection between working on marriage and the rewards for doing so....and the results would probably be just as immediate and rewarding.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> True human beings are not proactive by nature. Which then leaves us with the issue of men and women and who holds the key to relationships. Some are saying men do, but most of our cultural training is not be focused on them to the extent that women are trained to be focused on them.
<hr /></blockquote>I agree with this completely. Women ARE trained to be more focused on relationships, which is precisely why men hold the key....not to problems, but to success. Since men are NOT trained, if they can be coaxed to join the process proactively...the women will do what they're already trained to do.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Of course, this whole thread has been slanted toward keeping women happy and in the marriage, but we know that men have as many affairs. So here it must cut both ways.
<hr /></blockquote>Gosh I hope you don't really think this. This thread was about how counselors are discovering that they get the best results when the male is active in the rebuilding process. I'm not a male basher, but I think that this kind of relational process is NOT as you say a natural one for men, and so it seems key to have his interest and co-operation.

Men do have many affairs.....probably more of them, but that doesn't change the dynamics of counseling, since most marriages can survive affairs if both partners will join the recovery process. Getting the man to join that process (before it's too late) is what seems more difficult. What marriages can't survive is neglect, and I think men are more likely to put marriage on the back burner when they are juggling so many responsibilities. Unfortunately by the time that men notice the neglect, as Coffeman said, the marriage is already in crisis and the wife almost out of the door.

I agree this is unfair, and puts undue stress on the fellas. I wish it wasn't so. I wish women, could rebuild marriages without relying on the pivotal role of the men. But the research seems to tell a different story.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I believe if it is the female of the species that is so insecure, then it is in their best interest to explain to the male of the species what they needs and WHY. Hence, their role is pivotal. The male can only REACT, if indeed he is as you state.
<hr /></blockquote>It isn't the insecurity of women that accounts for the major differences in men and women. And it isn't insecurity that makes women more likely to walk out and file for divorce. It is certainly in their best interest ot explain their needs. It is also in the best interest of men to listen and believe that these things are important enough to undo the foundation of marriages BEFORE they reach the point of no return. I won't always like the role that I have been given, nor will you probably always relish yours...there are times when either of them is unfair....but we are as we are.

Let's say for the sake of argument, that what the research is showing about men being the key to success in MCing is true. How might you explain that?

SS, can we be absolutely certain that a great many of them have not been touched by one affair or more? and can we be absolutely certain that those folks are really illiterate with regards to marriage building? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ July 17, 2003, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Star*fish:

"What marriages can't survive is neglect, and I think men are more likely to put marriage on the back burner when they are juggling so many responsibilities."<hr /></blockquote>But this can also be true of women once children arrive on the scene. We often find that many women become so consumed with the children and other activities that they put their H's on the bottom of their lists. It's bad enough and unfair that women get saddled with a lot of the household responsabilities but when many of them add other activities on top of these which further consume more of their time and energy, you have to ask yourself, are they doing this to avoid being with their H's?

[ July 17, 2003, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

The reason we should attend counseling is that we are feeling shafted in marriage for whatever your reasons. But more often than not it is the crisis point that brings us here. But in any case, if you attend counseling, then you're beginning to do something.

There is a time for all things. Usually if you feel sick, you ought to do something for the illness. And the sooner the better, so it does not become too deep seated.

Children are definatly a turning point in marriage. There ought to be more preparation with this as well. But usually we just blindly get through. And it is good work but it is time-consuming.

How do folks who have children, and two jobs, spend 15hours of undivided attention together. But they will find a way to find someone to have an A with...maybe an hour of undivided attention.

Values that you share with your spouse are extremely important. A great clue can be how the spouses family behaves. Although that is not an acid test. It can be a clue.

In any case to learn more effective patterns where you have weaknesses is solid help for the marriage.

The demise is when we just keep going and ignore the signs and symptoms. Care all along the way is the preventative therapy.

Sheesh!! Can't a girl even go to a simple wedding shower without being overwhelmed by playtime when she gets back??? What is with you people??? Don't you have kids and laundry and jobs and stuff to do??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> LOL

Alright a few totally off the topic thoughts (and I do mean totally)

I have to tell you guys about this shower. It was for a circlemate. The wedding is Saturday at a park in the city. It will be a Wiccan handfasting complete with circle casting, main altar, and if I'm not mistaken... jumping the broomstick for fertility. The rehearsal followed the shower which was held in the same park.

This is one of the bigger more popular parks in the city and before our circle started using our farm as a place to celebrate we often met there for moons and sabbats over the years. Now, you have to know that as a rule Wiccans garb for ritual. If you saw us at a sabbat gathering you would see Renaissance wear, capes, headgear (a friend of mine has a cat-in-the-hat hat), swords, boots, a lot of black, even an occassional loincloth..... get the picture? We are always gawked at, looking odder than even the odd looking folk who wander through in dog collars and chaps.

So, last night we're at the park and we're all dressed like normal everyday folks.... shorts and sandals. And we're having a little party with cake, candy and gifts. Sitting around chatting and laughing and having a good time.

When....... there begins to arrive a group of people who at first look like bikers, but then we see are dressed a little more.... uhmmmm.... offbeat.... than the usual biker. AND they are ALL carrying (are you ready for this?)..... bullwhips!! LOL LOL LOL

We're all watching out of the corners of our eyes, trying not to stare. One guy gets out some rope and starts hanging t-shirts on clothes-hangers in the trees. It seems they are a whip cracking club and they are meeting to practice and play. More people arrive....

A woman wearing a short black leather skirt and leather halter shows up. That's cool.... but then our attention is caught by the boots.... they are knee high, black, and have been modified so that they have no apparent heel (although they are pitched like stillettos) AND the toe part looks like a horse's hoof. I'm telling you.... there was some serious shoe lust going on in our little group! But, that's not all..... Attached to her skirt at the waist is a long, to the ground, tail of hair... like a horse... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And then it hit us..... for the first time in longer than any of us can remember..... WE are the NORMAL ones gawking at some other group!! LOL LOL LOL LOL

What a hoot!

C

(You are now being returned to your regularly scheduled topic of conversation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"What is with you people??? Don't you have kids and laundry and jobs and stuff to do??? "<hr /></blockquote>Nope, we had them surgically removed and donated to science. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

This very recently from a woman I've mentored... with her permission:

But if I felt safe, loved, adored- I would of "rose to the occassion" to be the best I could be. I did not feel any of those things when I withdrew and I hadn't for a long time.
It took me 5 years before I withdrew. Then the rollercoaster ride
began.

And ....

he's still doing all this crap. So really- nothings changed but...he's being nicer. He doesn't see that we could have an awesome marriage. He doesn't see beyond this point. I now understand. I want more.. I want a great marriage. I want radical honesty. I want him to be my best friend and to spend my free time with him. But since he won't read anything, look at
anything, talk to anyone and if I say anything right now it's like "yeah, right, whatever".. How do I get this horse to the trough!!! And then
how do I get him to drink?????

How indeed......

C

Men and women complement each other. We need each others input. One is not superior. I like to view it as a complementary relationship, where one does certain things very well and the other does other things very well. We fit together like two peices of a puzzle.

If only one gets counseling, then the other suffers the interpretations of the one who got the therapy. Both spouses will miss out due to only one person's input. The complete picture requires the two peices of the puzzle present to ask questions, to listen and to learn together. On the same page.

But some men or women are shy about attending counseling due to the unknown of what they will talk, ask and find out. That is probably why so many of us need to be crisis bound before we will talk.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But this can also be true of women once children arrive on the scene. We often find that many women become so consumed with the children and other activities that they put their H's on the bottom of their lists. It's bad enough and unfair that women get saddled with a lot of the household responsabilities but when many of them add other activities on top of these which further consume more of their time and energy, you have to ask yourself, are they doing this to avoid being with their H's? <hr /></blockquote>I agree with Starfish but also have more random thoughts.

Yes- they are doing this to avoid being with the husband's in a round about way. Children bring instant needs filled that were missing.

What I'm hearing from women is several points. In the beginning of the marriage, even if the woman is working, the man is working up whatever corporate ladder he's working on. Yes, this is for the upcoming family and the wife, but most wives just notice more and more time spent at the office. They feel ignored. When the husband comes home after a long day- even if you say very respecfully, "We need to spend more time together... I miss you". He's likely to think "I'm doing everything I can for this family". I'm already working 60 hours a week to make sure I can support us when the kids arrive. But the wife sees it as lonely, unloved, picking the "office" over "me".. And yes- the wife is very insecure at this point.

Remember- most men make more money then the wife. Money isn't everything- but it has alot to do with security. And if the husband isn't making the woman feel secure by filling needs at home, and is climbing the corporate ladder, it makes the women very "needy", very scared (how many wives put the doctor through school to have him run away with the nurse), and the wife turns very dramatic, trying to get her husbands thoughts back on her. Which he sees as nagging, too needy, and he doesn't understand as he thinks he's pouring his heart out for the family by being successful.

Then come the kids. It's a different love but the woman tries to fill in her needs through the kids and totally axes the husband out of the picture. She gets what she perceives as negative from the husband(I need to go to the office, I'm had a hard day at work and don't want to talk). She gets immediate positive feed back from the children. She gets a new strength from the children.. "See I am loved, I am needed, I am a Great mom".

As the wife throws herself into the children, the more bewildered the husband is as to "what went wrong".. And the long slippery slide begins. As the children grow, the wife throws herself into their activities to fill in the time she would of spent at home by herself feeling pity before the kids.

So yes- she keeps her self busy, and surrounded by the children for instant need filling, and when busy- you aren't thinking about how bad the marriage really is.

I still agree with Cerri- it pivots around the man to make the woman feel secure. In the above scenario, there were many things the woman should of done early in the marriage to protect her marriage. Women do have 100% responsibility too. But, men need to protect their wives and fill their needs with the same great care they plan and protect their careers and portfolios.

2bm

Have ya'll seen the new TV show...

A QUEER EYE FOR THE STRAIGHT GUY

It may just be about the most interesting thing on TV right now!

Straight men learning how to become more civilized by following orders from very civilized gay men!

Hillarious!
Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
Have ya'll seen the new TV show...

A QUEER EYE FOR THE STRAIGHT GUY

It may just be about the most interesting thing on TV right now!

Straight men learning how to become more civilized by following orders from very civilized gay men!

Hillarious!
Pep<hr /></blockquote>OH!!!! What a fabulous idea!! LOL I suppose on a station I don't get.... <sigh>

C

Ya Know!....

There is so much to say. But, I guess if you all truely beleive it is the males that has the primary role in making the marriage work making sure the W is happy, and that her needs are met, and the success of the marriage depends on him focussing on this BEFORE his needs are met and that he needs to make sure she is secure, and that we do control everything, then why don't the females admit it?

I have no problem with the concept that if you are trying to rebuild a relationship as a counselor that it is key for both parties to buy into the idea of counseling. I also firmly agree that men resist far more than women being told what to do, or going into a situation where they feel their life is being controled by someone else.

It is in fact what makes males different from females. I happen to live in a community where there are a lot of professional women. Sadly, they seem to have adopted the "typical" male attitudes toward relationships: the kids are raised by au pairs, babysitters, and often see Dad far more than Mom. It comes with making money as a primary goal, and the responsibility of running large organizations. Something has to go, and it does. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

If it is really felt that men are the key to happiness in a marriage, then why don't mother's raise their sons and their daughters as to the PROPER role of things? Why are males constantly bombarded with the "you are not really needed" propaganda that is sooo common. Why did my 7th grade son come home one time and explain to us that his teacher had said the men are bad and the cause of all of the problems in the world?

The problem you ladies and gentlemen have with me, is that I make a living asking WHY. I think WHY is the most crucial thing. I beleive that most people don't understand WHY. I do believe most people function in ignorance, but that they shouldn't.

I also firmly believe that life is a team sport and the W should value the H,but it rarely seems to be the case societally.

2bm said <blockquote>quote:<hr />I still agree with Cerri- it pivots around the man to make the woman feel secure. In the above scenario, there were many things the woman should of done early in the marriage to protect her marriage. Women do have 100% responsibility too. But, men need to protect their wives and fill their needs with the same great care they plan and protect their careers and portfolios. <hr /></blockquote>Hard to argue with this. But, let's consider the issue of secure. Does an H make a women feel secure if he cannot pay the bills? Does an H make a women secure if her children have little or no medical care (read insurance)? Does an H make a woman secure if the unemployment check may not cover food for the month? Or if she will lose her new mercedes SUV? Or her luncheons out with the girls?

How does a woman make a man secure? By telling him it doesn't matter how much or little he makes? By telling she will love him IF he meets her needs?

You see I keep seeing these couplings of things. I can see men taking on the females role, but then women will have to take on the male role. It seems to me they are both important.

I came here by accident as many others did, because as Coffeeman pointed I was at the bottom of the "to do list". I was thinking about divorce, because it wouldn't hurt my sex life, or the amount of time and attention I was getting from my W. Infidelity was and is NOT an issue. I came here and learned that I was seeing things the wrong way and also that I have to deal with what I have or don't have.

But the one thing I have learned is I cannot change her. I have to accept her as she is, and I do. I can change but I cannot change her focus on the kids who are mostly in their 20's. So I watch this discussion and I wonder.

I guess if the experts say it is the men's fault. Fine. If the experts say that men need to change the way they view life, fine. But, I think something is missing from this, because no one wants an unsuccessful marriage. No one wants a marriage with no connections or one where one is ignored. Yet, there seem to be many. So the question is are they really ignored or is it the facts of life and what it takes to make a life work in our society. If it is that latter what has to change is the expectations. What also has to change is perspective. On the part of BOTH parties.

So if you guys and gals think it is the males job to determine if the marriage succeeds, then the males ought to be notified AND given credit for the marriages that do succeed. I guess we need to get rid of the "behind every successful man is a woman", and make it "behind every successful man is an angry and disappointed woman."

I really don't know why this bothers me so. It shouldn't, because I fully agree that for marriage recovery to work, both parties have to be on board. I also admit that men like counselors less than women, men are less likely to seek other opinions for any problem.

But, somehow the disconnect that I preceive between society, the professed feminist agenda, and the role that is being discussed here, bothers me.

Guess I am just not seeing things clearly.

God Bless,

JL

JL.... no fair!!! LOL I started a reply to you on the post from yesterday and it got eaten..... and now ..... more ......

You have so many good points and interesting views. I must have chased off Coffeeman with my quote challenge, though.

Ok... back to play when I can....

C

Ok- I'll stick my neck out on a limb.

by JL
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But, somehow the disconnect that I preceive between society, the professed feminist agenda, and the role that is being discussed here, bothers me. <hr /></blockquote>I in no way meant to say that marriage problems are all the man's faults. I'm first in line to say I made some huge mistakes. I hope it didn't come across that way. I do think(and please correct me if I'm wrong- as I'm not a guy!) that most men seem to judge if they are successful by the job they hold, money they make and how they are supporting their family with worldly things including food, insurance, cars, trips, etc...

Yes, there are women who will marry just for money and put up with anything to keep the check a flowing in, but women seem to judge success on a happy marriage and children. And by happy, they want a real connection with their husband. They want to feel "queen".. Sound corny? Maybe so. But when a wife feels like her husband is King, and this "king" thinks the world of her, she will do whatever it takes to not let him down.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If it is really felt that men are the key to happiness in a marriage, then why don't mother's raise their sons and their daughters as to the PROPER role of things? Why are males constantly bombarded with the "you are not really needed" propaganda that is sooo common. Why did my 7th grade son come home one time and explain to us that his teacher had said the men are bad and the cause of all of the problems in the world? <hr /></blockquote>I 100% agree. My mother tells me several times a year- "raise your boys to be the men you would want to marry." But I still am not sure exactly how to do this. How to put "concepts" to real life.
And I also see the men bashing around. You are correct that women can say things about men that no way a man could say about women. But I must say- in a couple "stress claims" at work- we prevailed on the man's side proving that the woman talked like a trucker, acted like a trucker, and flaunted herself like a floozie, and therefore should not "faint" when the men treated her like a trucker(no offense to truckers- my dad was one for many years! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> . The laws are changing slowly but surely.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So if you guys and gals think it is the males job to determine if the marriage succeeds, then the males ought to be notified AND given credit for the marriages that do succeed. I guess we need to get rid of the "behind every successful man is a woman", and make it "behind every successful man is an angry and disappointed woman." <hr /></blockquote>Women do give credit all the time, but probably to other women and not enough to the other men. When a man is successful and a giving, supporting husband and father, women tell other women. "Wow- can you believe what a wonderful man Jane married".. But I agree- the men do not hear it enough. And I'm thinking, if you saw a "good marriage, successful man, etc..." You would not go up to him and say "Hey, Joe, how do you do it.. How do you fulfill your wifes needs, make her feel emotionally secure while running an empire".

But, we as women would. It's in magazines what we should do(and some very wrong!). Relationships are talked about in our get togethers of what works, what don't. I totally agree that men are at a disadvantage.

As far as counseling.. Maybe women are more willing to go to counseling etc... because in a sense, this is what we do from teenagers up. We counsel with each other. So the step from a friend counseling me to professional is not as big of a leap. How many women do you know go through a divorce without anyone knowing it. I know none. Women talk- some good, some bad, but they talk out their feelings. I know several men in my office who no one knew was going through a divorce - not even their personal secretaries - until someone noticed the ring gone. So it would seem to be a larger leap from telling no one- to the professional couch for a man.

I saw on Bravo that "A Queer Eye on the Straight Guy" got Bravo's it's highest ratings ever!! I missed the show.... Maybe next week! Cerri- you get Bravo?

2bm

[ July 17, 2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: 2boysmom ]

JL,
The things you (and others) have been discussing are general in nature. Blanket statements that work over a broad range of people and situations.

I came to MB only a year and a half ago, and it has worked for my wife and I - worked very well. No A at our house either, but things needed to be better. I found that she did respond to my lead. So well that I can say we have never been happier at anytime in our relationship, including our engagement and honeymoon. Her focus has shifted from the children to our relationship. She tells people she can hardly wait until we retire so she can spend more time with me.

This is all background.

Would you comment on what you have done, and how it has worked for you? I gather that things are still not perfect. I believe there are some people that will never respond, no matter how much work their spouse does. I would hate to think your W fits that description. To what extent has she responded?

It looks like you have strong feelings beause you have invested a great deal into your own marriage and you are speaking from personal experiance.

I would also guess that being a trained observer, you have watched others relationships. Lets leave the world of theory for a while. Would you be willing to tell us what you are seeing?

SS

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Ya Know!....

There is so much to say. But, I guess if you all truely beleive it is the males that has the primary role in making the marriage work making sure the W is happy, and that her needs are met, and the success of the marriage depends on him focussing on this BEFORE his needs are met and that he needs to make sure she is secure, and that we do control everything, then why don't the females admit it?
<hr /></blockquote>LOL......ah cuz I don't agree with that statement? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Men don't have the primary role, their participation just seems to be key. Who said anything about focussing on W's happiness BEFORE H's needs are met????

Star,

Cerri has basically said this a variety of ways. I don't have much time so I will offer only one quote <blockquote>quote:<hr />Of course not. But women's ability to meet men's needs is dependent on getting theirs met. And it takes more time and effort to meet women's needs than it does men's. That's why men are the key.... they need to put in more energy to meet needs they don't understand in a way that doesn't make sense in how they view the world. <hr /></blockquote>The part I put in bold pretty well says it.

2bm, does it bother you about the male bashing since you have boys? It bothers me alot, because I can see the affect on my boys. And actually on my daughter. Her attitude about her brothers (yeah I know they are brothers and sisters, what else needs to be said <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and other boys is shaped by this preception that they don't know what they are doing. It is true and it isn't true.

You also made the comment that women tell other women if their H's are doing things well. But, it doesn't seem to translate into telling their H, who is the person that should know.

It is interesting that men are expected to compliment women for cooking meals, being a good mother, etc. But, you rarely hear the converse. That isn't in the woman's magazines.

My comment about salary is one point in case. It isn't that women marry men for wealth all of the time, but it is expected that the man take care of HER children finacially. I realize this is changing with more women in the work force, but if a family goes belly up financially, it is the H's fault not the W's. Yet, this contribution is very frequently dismissed on this site and others. Sort of like we know you are right handed so anything you do right handed doesn't really count. Now what can you do LEFT handed? That is what I want to see to PROVE that you love me.

I find it wierd sometimes, more so in this day and age. Hence my confusion about roles. I do believe in roles by the way, it is more efficient than two people trying to be all things to all of the family. I suspect that idea is antiquated as well.

Must go.

JL

JL,
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 2bm, does it bother you about the male bashing <hr /></blockquote>This bothers me terribly!!! And I mean that sincerely. I am confused and dismayed by the male stereotypes in the media (female too), and I think it is a travesty and confusing for everyone! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It is interesting that men are expected to compliment women for cooking meals, being a good mother, etc. But, you rarely hear the converse. That isn't in the woman's magazines.
<hr /></blockquote>Respectfully, this is simply untrue. It is ALL OVER women's magazines. I did a preliminary search and there are just too many to cut and paste. If you really believe this....please do try it. Women ARE encourage to compliment and support their lovers and husbands in magazines. Now they are also encouraged to do alot of really awful things too.....so magazines consequently are not my first source for good relationship counseling.

Star,

I cannot argue with you. I don't read most if any woman's mags. W gets GH, that is my exposure. But, I must say that the general impression I get is that men are supposed to work, so there really is no need for thanking them. In fact working hard is often cited as the reason for marriages failing.

This is one of the reasons I am interested in this thread. I want to teach my sons what I was taught. Work hard, focus on doing well, give things your best shot. Unfortunately, that translates into long hours at work, especially if you run a company. So what do I teach them???

I had an interesting discussion with D last night. The discussion what to watch on TV. I announced I was going to bed to read (it was about 9 pm). She was giving me a hard time for being an "old" man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I pointed out to her that I don't find stupidity amusing and most of the shows on TV in prime time have a basic primis that one of the main characters is an idiot. Mostly it is the male. Or you get one of those delightful shows about meeting your "soulmate" on a show, and then get to choose between 1 million bucks or this person.

Give me a break, you would be an idiot to turn down the money for a guy or girl you met in a gimmick show that you don't know and is keeping secrets from you.

She says: "Dad they all aren't like that." Yeah, CSI, Law and Order, and Dr. PHil (on in prime time here), other than that...

Or you can watch the news with such enlighting segments as men hiring women to be nude moving targets in a paint ball game somewhere near Las Vegas. Now I admit I might have found that story more interesting IF they hadn't fuzzed out the women <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> AND my kids weren't watching the show. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But, the main message on most TV shows is that people are really stupid and it is mostly males. I don't by either concept actually.

So the point (after a 45 minute phone call) is I do think at best the message men/boys get is mixed and worst pretty discouraging at least as a father. I grew up in a different era.

So the issue is What is the message. Cerri has made some interesting comments about her coaching experience with regard to action and who is willing to take action. I am very interesting in her input, and that of all of you.

I am not trying to tell you all how it is, I am trying to learn how to offer my own kids the best advice.

Must go before the phone rings and get back to writing my report.

God Bless,

JL

Out in training all day tomorrow. Wedding Saturday and delivering kid to camp Grandma's Sunday..... see ya next week unless I get a little chance to pop in over the weekend.

Don't hold your breath though... my special order grout is in and there is a floor calling my name! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

I think that it is dangerous for either gender to get complacent by saying 'I'm not the one with the problem, it is s/he that's got the problem'. BOTH genders must do everything in their power to not take each other for granted. In the situation where the woman has clearly communicated her needs to her man, and he hasn't taken her seriously and attempted to satisfy those needs, then the woman should take action and if necessary, Plan B until her H expresses a willingness to do his part to heal the marriage. If she's a mother, she may not want to disolve the marriage for fear of harming the children BUT she does her children no favors by becoming a sad and lonely person living in a loveless marriage. It has been said in the past that the greatest gift a wife and a husband can give to their children is a happy marriage. If this is true then the W and/ or the H must be willing to make the difficult choices that have a good chance of making the marriage a much better one than the present one. Otherwise, nothing will change and both of them will be extremely unhappy spouses and parents.

[P.S.Pepper, my W and I saw the two episodes of Bravo's 'Queer Eye For The Straight Guy' and we couldn't stop laughing our rear ends off, even after we went to bed (talk about mental images). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ]

Okayyyyyyy, time for a fresh perspective.

I'm a woman. My partner is a woman.

What I've read so far in this thread is both dung and gold. The hard part is separating the two, and it's a messy job all around.

As I've read the comments, I've nodded my head several times saying, "Yep, I act like a woman." And then later, "Yep, I act like a man." And then I think, "Yep, my WS acts like a woman." And then I read some more and my reaction is "Yep, my WS acts like a man."

What's the point here? I think it's just that all people have all of the tendencies, good AND bad. Saying that men are like this and women are like that? Sure, it's probably more or less true on average.

But Cerri's got female clients who -can- do what needs to be done, so it's not impossible. I'm one of 'em, and in a "unique" situation in which I cannot implement Plan A or Plan B. It sucks. Maybe I'll implement the 180 list like CarolK did...

Anyway, my point here is that there is little advantage to arguing over who's key to all this working. Both people MAY be key. If the marriage is to succeed, both people ARE key.

And anyone can play any role, even when the common role for their sex isn't the one they take.

J,

I am inclined to believe exactly what you do. It is afterall the most logical way of looking at this situation. The problem is that it doesn't explain what counselors are discovering in "practice". Apparently, there seems to be a correlation of some kind between male involvement and successful recovery in relationships. So I think what we're trying to explore, is why that it so? We can say it isn't so, and hang on to what "should" be so, but it doesn't explain the contradictory evidence.

Believe me, I'm just as confounded as you are LOL!

[ July 19, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

Cerri commented in a few posts back that one of the thing she's noticed in her practice is that most of her women clients, unlike her men clients, are more inclined to talk than to take action to recover their marriage. If her experience is universal, then I can understand why the studies say that men are the key to marital recovery IF those men take action to fulfill their wive's EN. But how many marriages can last if the H is the only spouse following the Harley principles?

You have no idea how much this thread and the thoughts and opinions here has been consuming my little brain!! LOL In fact, it's been inspiration for new insights for articles I have started.

Ok, still way behind. Still haven't read the newest posts. But this was in my email today and I thought it would fit well here. JL, I think you'll like much of what it says. From the (FREE) Smart Marriages Newsletter www.smartmarriages.com

C
~~~~~~~

PAT LOVE'S LOVE RECIPE

The Love Recipe
DR. PAT LOVE reveals 10 amazing ways to
keep your relationship cooking.

What does Dr. Pat Love know about making love last? As the author of
Truth
About Love: The Highs, Lows and How You Can Make It Last Forever (Simon
&
Schuster, 2001), Hot Monogamy: Essential Steps to More Passionate
Intimate
Lovemaking (Penguin, 1994) and the upcoming How to Ruin a Perfectly
Good
Relationship, it¹s her business to know how to succeed at maintaining a
strong relationship. That¹s why we asked her to unlock the key ways to
preserve your love affair after you¹re named husband and wife. Here are
Dr.
Love¹s 10 strategies to keeping your union vibrant and steamy‹long
after the
honeymoon is over.

1 PLAY UP THE POSITIVE Always look for the best in your partner. It
takes a
genuine effort to keep criticism, withdrawal, defensiveness and
contempt out
of your relationship, but it makes a big difference. The newest
research on
extramarital affairs points out that the cause is not sex or
excitement. It
usually stems from someone outside the marriage taking the time to make
them
feel wonderful, giving them genuine compliments or displaying a good
attitude toward gestures they have made. Positive attention is an
incredibly
alluring aphrodisiac. If you have a negative attitude, studies show
that
you¹ll have a slim chance of holding on to that relationship.

2 IT¹S THE RELATIONSHIP STUPID Smart couples make this statement a
daily
mantra. It¹s really about making room for "the relationship" as the
third
component to what you might have thought only consisted of two parts,
you
and him. Let¹s say you have a big decision to make and you¹re really
torn up
about it. You should stop, take a deep breath and consider how it will
affect your relationship. It can be hard because your first impulse is
to
think about how it will change your life right now. But the real
question to
ask yourself is: what is best for our union? When you and your partner
are
in conflict, step back and shift the way you both approach the issue.
You
want to resolve it based on how it will influence that entity‹the
relationship‹first, even if it means you¹ll be personally disappointed
at
that particular moment.

3 VIVE LA DIFFERENCE Women are especially guilty of expecting men to be
exactly like them. But couples need to accept that it¹s actually your
differences that will maintain the passion in your marriage. In the
beginning, you¹re often attracted to your similarities, but as the
relationship grows, it will be the contrasts that keep it interesting.
Sure,
it will challenge a couple, and ultimately force them to respond to
each
other in new ways, but it¹s good to remember that humans are always in
a
state of flux, with things changing all the time. The more prepared you
both
are for adjustments, the smoother the ride will be.

4 GOOOAAAAALLL! People have no problem setting goals for themselves in
their
work life, with weight loss and fitness, and their financial status.
Use
rituals like anniversaries or New Year¹s Eve to sit down and talk about
relationship goals for the year. Dr. Love even has friends who renew
their
marriage contract every year after they¹ve discussed their hopes for
the
coming year. Target simple things like being kinder to one another; a
more
attentive lover; or turning off the TV once a week to spend time
talking to
each other about the things you never have enough time to share. Then,
as
with any other goal you¹ve reached: Make sure to celebrate your
achievements.

5 FAIR PLAY: THE ULTIMATE FOREPLAY Tit-for-tat is no way to keep a
marriage
strong. Emphasize equity, not equality, in your relationship, because
it
promotes all-around fairness and prevents scorekeeping. If you¹re
constantly
nit-picking and keeping track of who gets what, you¹re probably not
looking
at the big picture, which is about evenhandedness, not hardheadedness.

6 PUT A KABASH ON THE COFFEEE KLATCH Women are often guilty of turning
to
their female friends for support, leaving their husbands missing out on
their important feelings. When the shared intimacy that this dialogue
can
produce is directed outside the marriage, it¹s almost a sort of
infidelity.
Sharing those deepest thoughts, dreams and ambition should belong
solely
inside the marriage. Keep some things just between you and your
partner.
There is a great amount of pride in a relationship when two partners
resolve
an issue in privacy, on their own.

7 FRIENDS DON¹T LET FRIENDS DISAPPROVE OF THEIR MARRIAGE Hang around
with
other couples who support your marriage. This means finding couples
that you
know are happy in their relationship and happy themselves. These
couples are
good role models, and set a good example of how you two should treat
each
other. Couples who are having difficulty will undercut your
relationship,
and marriage in general, often without realizing it. And it¹s really
easy to
start behaving badly when other people around you are behaving badly.
Rather, you want to surround yourself with friends who support the
institution of marriage and truly believe in you as a couple.

8 THE TOUCHY-FEELY FACTOR There¹s no better proof of your love than
displaying it in tangible ways. Happy, stable couples show their love
on a
regular basis with many acts of kindness each day. It¹s the little
gestures
that go a long way. You should both ask yourself: Do I smile at him? Do
I
offer him coffee when I pour myself a cup? Do I cook her dinner when I
know
she¹s had a really long day? Do I take the dog for a long walk so she
can
have some time to herself? This will nourish the love between you,
showing
your partner how much you care.

9 LONG LIVE PASSION! (and we don¹t mean sex) Whether it¹s about
fly-fishing,
golf, music or sex, it¹s vital to accept what your partner is
passionate
about in life. It¹s also crucial to encourage him to keep up those
favorite
pastimes‹and for you to try and share in that interest. Research shows
that
couples who make sacrifices for each other¹s kicks in life have the
stronger
relationships. So make sure you¹re open about your own irresistible
urges in
life because, psst, passion is contagious. When one partner gets revved
up
about something, it often gets passed along.

10 BENEVOLENCE IS BEAUTIFUL Do you really know what he or she wants in
life?
To know the answer is a key to a successful union. It¹s easy to project
your
own ideas of what you like onto your mate, but that¹s missing the
point. If
you really want to make your partner happy, take the time to discover
the
little thing that will make them happy and then give it. It makes a
person
feel loved and appreciated, letting them know you truly understand what
they
desire. Think like a detective in your relationship and learn what
makes
your partner tick. Figuratively or literally, wrap it up in a pretty
bow and
give it as a gift.

Summer 2003 Elegant Bride‹as told by Dr. Pat Love to Kimberly Stevens

Hey Cerri, here's something from 'The Relationship Cure' by John M Gottman Ph.D. Specifically the section titled 'The difference between men and women' page 56:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Many factors influence the way people bid(an expression that says 'I want to feel connected to you') and respond to bids, and gender is certainly one of those factors. A few key points of difference, which emerged from our studies of husbands and wives, merit special attention.

First, we learned that husbands in happy marriages turned toward their spouses with much greater frequency than husbands in unhappy marriages did. But wives turned toward their partners with the same frequency whether their marriages were happy or not.

We can conclude from this that men may hold a significant key to determining whether or not their marriages will succeed. While wive's attention to their husband's needs is always important, it's the additional benefit of the husband's mindfulness that puts the relationship over the top, giving the couple a much better chance of a long, happy marriage.

That's not to say that the wife's contribution is inconsequential. Our studies show that the wife's sense of humor, interest, and affection can have a big impact on the husband's ability to remain calm during conflict - a factor that ultimately predicts stability in a marriage. In this regard, it's the wife's positive expression that makes a bigger difference than the husband's. But what allows a wife access to these attributes when she's engaged in a conflict? Our research reveals that it's the practice she gets constantly turning toward her husband in everyday interaction. "<hr /></blockquote>So it seems that Dr John M Gottman studies of couples also supports your statement.

And also from the same book from Dr Gottman, here's another interesting quote from page 4:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"At the University of Washington, my research colleagues and I recently discovered how profoundly this bidding process (the process of emotionally communicating 'I want to feel connected to you') affects relationships. We learned, for example, that husbands headed for divorce disregard their wives bids for connection 82 percent of the time, while husbands in stable relationships disregard their wive's bids just 19 percent of the time. Wives headed for divorce act preoccupied with other activities when their husbands bid for their attention 50 percent of the time, while happily married wives act preoccupied in response to their husband's bids just 14 percent of the time"<hr /></blockquote>