I didn't want to hijack KB96's thread, so I decided to open up a new topic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More and more studies are showing what I've known to be true for a long time. That if marriages are to succeed then the key is to motivate the husband to create the atmosphere his wife needs to be in love with him. Do that and all she needs in a little push in the right direction. The key is almost always with the husband.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this, as far as the majority of the marriages is concerned, but what about those marriages where the reverse is true and the H has fallen head over heels in love with the OW, does the same answer apply with regards to his W? I ask because it seems that SF is not the sole EN being met by the OW.

This is consistent with what Gary Smalley says in his book Hidden keys to a loving and lasting Marriage:

"If a couple has been married for more than five years, any persistent disharmony in their marriage relationship is usually attributable to the husband's lack of understanding and applying genuine love."

"When a man treats his wife with gentleness, when he is loving and understanding, and when he does most of the things described in this book, she will respond to him on every level. She'll desire intimate conversations with him, she'll feel emotional love for him."

... TMCM, Smalley also says this about men who have affairs:

"A man having an affair: It's just too hard for him to blame himself for a frigid or nagging wife. He feels she was enough to drive him into another woman's arms."

..... this book is an oldie but a goodie.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks pep, while there is no excuse for an affair whether the WS is a man or a woman, the state of the marriage is the equal responsibility of BOTH spouses and wives are far from perfect as far as fulfilling their H's EN's. They to fall under the false assumption that they are satisfying their H's most important EN's when they really aren't.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Ya Know,

I AM getting old. I remember when I was young and learning the advice was for WOMEN to be there for their H's. Good cooking, clean house, sex?? you bet! In short, if she catered to her hardworking H's needs he would be loving and faithful H AND she would be happy. A happy H makes a happy W right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

If I tried to peddle that these days I would be shot. Frankly in these "enlightened" times, Smalley's advice sounds just as stupid.

All of the worlds failures including marital ARE men's fault. To believe that would require that you believe that ALL that is good in the world is due to men as well. Further, it would mean that women really ARE as stereotyped, helpless without us guys gentle and guiding hand in everything from sports to matrimony. We are the key to all happiness.

Hello, I just don't think it works that way. I really don't. I don't know much but I do know three things.

1. There are no experts in unsolved problems.
2. Life is a team sport.
3. Credit is NOT a conserved quantity.

It seems to me #2 is key point here.

One can be as kind and understanding as one wants but it doesn't overcome disparate sex drives, or a women's total focus on her children and not her H. It doesn't overcome a women's lack of understanding of men, any more than a males lack of understanding for a woman.

I don't believe that life is 50/50, I believe it is 100/100 each doing their best to make life good for their partner. To say that it is men's fault WHENEVER a marriage fails is just dumb, especially if you believe that men and women do in fact see things differently.

Ok, I will get off of my soap box. I will just say one more thing. Just because someone writes a book, it doesn't make them an expert on what they are writing about or even right. However, I am sure that just as the old 40/50's approach this will work as well IF someone wants to take the full and total responsibility for a marriage. Heck it worked sometimes then, but obviously women didn't find it that good, or alot of the women's movement wouldn't have taken place.

Ok Ok! I am stepping off now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good night Ya'll.

JL

I agree with you JL, but even when the question arises of why did a man or a woman fall into an A? There seems to be more justification for the woman's A than for the man's. When a man has an affair, the general consensus is that it's because he's an animal, but when a woman has an affair, the general consensus leans towards because her EN's weren't met. Like all generalizations, it doesn't take into account that not all men and women fit into neet categories. For example, the case of the WH who falls in love with the OW, cannot be simply be explained away as just SF, for if that were the case, he would not leave his BW to go live with the OW.

Smalley explains his position more fully in the book than I'm doing here:

"I'm not suggesting that the husband is solely responsible for all the disharmony in a marriage. Day-to-day conflicts can arise because of his wife's physical exhaustion, health problems, or overloaded schedules."

TMCM .... ever read "women's" magazines? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Know what they are packed full of? RELATIONSHIP ADVICE AND TECHNIQUES <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ..... "How to please your man." "How to make yourself sexier for your man"...... and so on and so on.

Or.... go watch the kids play in a pre-school one afternoon . See what girls do as they play-act ....vs what boys do when they play-act.

Most of the time, girls play some sort of "house and/or mommie" .... and the boys fly-thru-the-air dressed in a super hero cape. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

(Happy memory..... I remember my son refusing to remove his "cape" for any reason what-so-ever! I think he wore it 24/7 for 2 weeks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Women (generally speaking) are keenly interested in studying ways to improve their relationships before there is trouble! It seems to be (mostly) hard-wired.

Smalley makes some exceptions of his theory (naturally). If a woman has prolonged anger in her life, if she has been brought up within a mostly bitter and resentful home, and if she has developed into a habitual liar ..... that combined with deep seated feelings of inferiority ..... Smalley says she has become what M. Scott Peck calls "Person of the lie." .... and there is no pleasing such a person despite making a great sacrifice of one's soul.

I am not argueing against your point .... but adding a sideways enrichment!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks again Pep, your post does indeed enrich.

But one thing I've noticed is that many (not all) women tend to send out covert signals of their unhappiness that most of the time fly over their H's heads. Let's face it we men are terrible mind readers, we need women to tell us straight out 'I am not happy. I have not been happy for a long time, and I am reaching the breaking point where I will not want to be married to you for much longer'[BTW men also need to be this honest when they talk to their W's about their unfulfilled EN's]. If the men then chose to disregard their wive's pleas for help, then they have nobody to blame for themselves. After all, it was not Sue's (from 'Surviving An Affair') unmet EN's that pushed her to have an affair with Greg, it was her dishonesty to Jon about her feelings of loneliness.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Oh good not Sci Fi.... although I might do ok on a Star Wars trivia.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

First I agree that marriage is not 50/50. It's a 100/100.... or maybe even more like 110/110. One of the things Harley has been banging on lately, since before the release of Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders, is that the idea of "fair" has no place in marriage. It's what he calls the Renter attitude. That I'll stay in the marriage as long as I feel I'm getting out of it what I put into it. As opposed to I'll do whatever it takes, even if that means right now I put more effort into it, to make the marriage work.

I also agree that women are terrible (TERRIBLE!!) at being honest. Somehow we grow up with this idea that the man should be able to read our minds and know what we want, and if he doesn't then he's not the one for us.

OTOH men don't do well at hearing and responding to women when they are honest. I said those very things to my x "I'm horribly unhappy with ____ situation. I have been for a long time. I'm at the breaking point (any my exact words were... I'll never forget them...) If you choose to continue to walk on the path we've been on, you will walk alone, I can't do this any more."

I didn't say it once. Or twice. I said it repeatedly in every way possible that I could think of for FIFTEEN YEARS. And nothing changed.

Part of that is directly related to how we as men and women deal with life in general. Men compartmentalize... break things up into distinct areas. Women are whole atmosphere oriented. Neither is right or wrong... or better than the other. It's just the way it is.

So men see a problem, like an unhappy wife and their natural inclination is to fix it right now. Take her out to dinner over the weekend, spend time with her, and then when she is happy and smiling... Voila! Problem solved, life can return to normal. That's not wrong.... it's just different than what women need. And women see perceive it as not caring about them.

Ok..... I've like totally lost my train of thought here.....

So the non Sci-Fi question was??? Oh yeah when the WS is the H does the same apply because SF is not the only need being met....

No it's not.... in fact the needs that most likely were met in the beginning, the ones that led down the slippery slope were probably admiration and recreational companionship. Pretty rare that any two people just lock eyes and then run off and jump into bed!

So we have him meeting the need for conversation and her meeting the need for admiration (You're so wonderful, you understand me in a way my husband never did! You're so much fun to be around. You handled that sooo well...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) And then you add a little play time.... dinner, concert, ballgame, carnival.... and the stage is set for romance.

But back to my original assertion that men drive the success of a marriage (and it's not just me, there are lots of studies and writings that say much the same) Women take the emotional temperature of a R about every 10 minutes. Men do about twice a week. So in almost every case the wife will notice the emotional disconnect first.

In many cases.... not all, certainly, but enough.... the first thing that goes is time together as a couple. Some say it happens when they get married.... I think it happens when the wedding planning starts.... what a great way to wreck a wonderful relationship LOL plan a wedding! No time together, parents butting in, spending too much $$, and loads of conflict!!

Anyway... time together out the window. With that goes meeting her need for conversation and shortly thereafter affection. As she withdraws (because we know women are not good at being honest and men are not good at hearing it when she is...) sex becomes less frequent and admiration gets the axe too. And we all know how it plays out from there. Which one has the A is often dependant on opportunity and each person's ability to recognize the need to guard their LBnk.

BUT it almost always (not always.... I know that ...but almost...) begins when her needs are not met and her concerns are not heard. Or when there is a control issue of some sort and she withdraws. If I were writing the book, I would put protection as the number one emotional need.

Alright, well I feel like I rambled all over the place and made no sense at all.... must be the end of the week. Hit me with the rebuttal.... just please.... no Sci-Fi quotes!!

C

TMCM,

I agree with you, just had one comment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When a man has an affair, the general consensus is that it's because he's an animal, but when a woman has an affair, the general consensus leans towards because her EN's weren't met. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't this really go back to a societal issue. Remember in High School; the guy who gets lucky all the time is a stud! The girls he gets it from are sluts! It's not fair but it's that old double-edged sword thing! I think there is a direct correlation!

Ok beat me up over that one, but that's my feelings and I need them validated! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

r0uter

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hit me with the rebuttal.... just please.... no Sci-Fi quotes!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Cerri. First I need to clarify that what sparked my 'Q for 2Long' thread was a conversation that I had with an old friend of mine. He is an atheist, like 2Long, and during our conversation he repeated the old saying 'If God didn't exist, we would have invented him/her'. This reminded me of this series of books from the late Sci Fi writter Frank Herbert (the author of the 'Dune' series) which dealt with this premise. And seeing that these forums do tend to have religious people posting religious oriented posts, I thought I seek out the one MB member (2Long) that reminded me of my friend, and who like yours truly, is familiar with Mr Herbert's books. But I later felt guilty in that I was using up valuable (and expensive) bandwith with a topic that is not related to the forums, so I did not continue posting to it.

Now back to the subject of this thread. You are absolutely, positively(need more adverbs? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) correct when you say that we men are TERRIBLE listeners, not only to our women but to ourselves as well. My point was to differentiate between the stereotypical WH who had a short term fling (ONS) from the WH who had an A and left his BW to go live with the OW. BOTH are bad but different 'animals' so to speak.

You are right rOuter, those ugly double standards have existed and unfortunately still continue to exist EXCEPT that for some time now, they have been started to be switched around (not eliminated) by those folks that subscribe to the culture of victimhood. It seems that society instead of eliminating double standards, strives to create new ones.

"Women tend to send out covert signals of their unhappiness that most of the time fly over their H's heads."

No kidding! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> This is correct.

Women have been "educated" NOT TO NAG by their H's!

How non-covert does it need to be?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Women have been "educated" NOT TO NAG by their H's!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll take a naging W that is honest with me about what she is feeling, than a quiet W that is dishonest to me about her feelings, any day of the week. At least, if I decided to ignore her message, I would have nobody to blame but myself.

TMCM ....

Me too! (well sexes reversed, of course)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'll take a naging W that is honest with me about what she is feeling, than a quiet W that is dishonest to me about her feelings, any day of the week. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are a truly wise man TMCM!!

I couldn't agree more! I have been trying for fifteen years to get my wife to tell me when something is wrong. I even asked her if it would help to write it down and leave it for me to find so she didn't have to tell me face-to-face!

r0uter

I even asked her if it would help to write it down and leave it for me to find so she didn't have to tell me face-to-face!

Great idea. I wife hates to nag

Oh Boy!

This IS going to be fun. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I love these types of discussions. The problem is that I only type about 90 words a minute (Uncorrected I might add), and I want to "talk" much faster.

If Cerri is saying that because men are the "weak" link in the relationship, that makes them the most important component of a successful marriage, I sort of agree.

However, I have come to a conclusion that while women are very interested in relationships, they just lousy at them. If you want an example go to the Preg portion of this site. If you want more, who gets in more arguements with their same sex friends, suffers slights with great indignity, cannot seem to come out an say the important things most of the time, RELISHES the role of victim, which is tough when the whole circle of friends wants to be a victim. Heck, the only way that can happen is if they can blame their victimhood on a NON-FEMALE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Since this is not Sci-fi, that leaves us guys.

Have I painted a bad enough picture? Let me continue. Who likes to play mental games and set traps to TEST their partners? Who then reacts to these unseen tests as if the partner knew there was a test?

I don't beleive the above described attributes suggests people skilled at relationships, just people that are sensitive to them.

Are men better? Yes and no. I am of the firm belief that most men are every bit as sensitive and aware as women are. We have as an example of relationship behavior our mothers, sisters, GF's, and even W's and don't want any part of it. So we play dumb.

Is it true that women are more aware? I don't know, but I do know that on a crowed side walk you will NOT see another man bump into another male or even female. Yet, you will see that happen constantly with females. They will cut you off, shut doors in your face, in short they are clueless about those around them. I can only presume that they feel "safe" in their behavior and males don't feel "safe". Yet, women are really the more vulenable. Does this make sense? Not really.

So where am I going?

Well, let's look at the rules for marriage here, and the tennents for this site. They set a standard of behavior a goal of meeting NEEDS as discussed and identified clearly. They describe how to become more sensitive in your relationships, and it works. Even more interestingly it works for males. Cerri herself has pointed out that men seem to like this approach as much or more than women.

Ever wonder why?

I will offer my theory. I think men do in fact want and need a good relationship with a female. They are very aware or as aware of relationship issues as women. The problem is they don't know how to really address them, and frankly the female model "stinks". All of the hoopla, drama, "guess what I am thinking", "you should know what is on my mind", etc just doesn't do it for men. So they simply stay away from relationship discussions, and the subject as a whole.

When offered a more "coherent" and reasonable approach to relationships, men do seem to do well. I would offer this site as an example. Even in the worst of situations, their W's affair, men do work on relationships. I just don't think that they were unaware of the need for a good relationship, I just think they had not seen a good model in actions before. Clearly, women haven't either.

So my point is that I suspect that men are indeed far more aware and sensitive than women think (frankly many women wouldn't treat their female friends as poorly as they do their H's), the issue comes down to the model to address the relationships and the typical female model just doesn't work for men, I don't think it works all that well for women either.

Yes, men and women are definitely different. We do see the same things differently, but I suspect that we are closer to each other in the area's of relationships than people think. Hence part of the problem.

Ok, I will stand back and let the flames rise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JL

JL

You are correct .... we women treat our H's poorly, while we are better at relationships with our friends.

I have, regretfully done this way too much.

Pep

I sure wish they taught me this relationship stuff back in high school, just maybe I wouldn't have gone thru hell because of my ignorance.

Maybe if we started a grass root movement to have Cerri or Dr Harley run for president next year. I definitely would cast my vote for either of them rather than for any of the two party candidates.