I have moved here from the surviving an affair forum. I wasn't very popular there because I chose not to follow the MB method for ending the affair and used partial exposure that allowed WW to keep her job and avoid scandal at work and exposure to our children. I probably won't be popular here for the same reasons I wasn't popular there. I don't think my circumstance is typical. Most write that off as arrogance, but it is simply my desire to do the right thing. But writing these things down is theraputic for me, so just pass over this thread if you get frustated with people that don't immediately follow advice. But I have learned a lot from reading here and I think someday, someone in my circumstance might benefit. I have never felt such pain as I have the last month. It has helped to read from others that have felt the same.

After the limited exposure two weeks ago at the counselors office to WW and later that night to OM and OMS, I am optimistic that there will be no contact. But as I said in the other thread, my biggest fear was not lack of NC but that her reaction to exposure would be to leave both the affair and the marriage. That is exactly what I now fear will happen.

Following a week of walking on eggshells and avoiding the issue we had a date night where we had that good talk that brings issues out and seemed to be the kind of talk you need in recovery. The following day I asked "so you really do love me" and she said "of course, that was not the issue I never imagined leaving you for him". So I left town for a week of work with normal contact by phone and text. I returned with gifts and flowers and other LB deposits and WW seemed normal and liked the gifts and the expression of feelings they represented. But then, while actually removing keylogger on her laptop, I find a link to a lawyers web site. After checking her phone GPS log, I found she had visited a lawyer last Friday afternoon. I paced for an hour thinking what this could possible be and then at midnight went to her in bed and asked. It was clear from her stoned emotional response "I had to take care of my options" that she had seen him to discuss divorce. I lost it and cried and got physically sick. She didn't move or say a word other than she had planned to tell me in the MC session the next day and she was sorry I found out this way.

At the MC office, she rejected my suggestion that divorce was an overreaction and typical of the lingering "fog" of the affair. She said the affair is part of a pattern in our marraige caused by her lack of love for me and divorce should have happened before and must happen now or we will just be here again in the future. But before we left the MC convinced her to consider separation first and that's where I am today. By tonight, I have to leave and give her space to consider if she wants to make that call to her lawyer and file the papers she said she already signed.

As I will explain in the next post, I believe it is more important for our recovery for me to be non-confrontational and listen to "her voice" and do what she asks more than try and change her mind. So after writing this, I have to find a place to live and a source of hope that this will be part of our recovery process. I don't really think I have a choice because she said her heart is stone at this point so she is only making decisions with her mind about what she wants without any real feelings of compassion for others. She says she no longer is capable of crying for anyone. She also said I should not consider the separation if i had expectations that things would change. She said she might make that call any time regardless of my agreement to separation.

So. She's leaving you for the OM.

So here I will explain the reason for the title of this forum. How do you recover the love in a marriage that never had the love that marriage should have? Ours is a story of two souls unloved at home and screwed up long before we met. We are the classic codependents looking for love from each other we never had for ourselves to begin with. We've encountered the conquences of this issue several times in our 28 year marriage, but each time we made it through with therapy and gained a better understanding of our issues, only to repeat the pattern again. This affair is the most recent crisis. WW sees it as a sign there can be no fix and the only sane thing to do is divorce and live alone. She is not interested in recovery.

But I think we are still better together than apart. I will explain this using my WW as the example but it holds true for me as well. Despite being beautiful and intelligent and caring, WW grew up in an alcoholic family where she never felt loved and never felt good enough. So she is really never happy and often depressed. Early in our marriage this drove me nuts because I was ignorant about these issues and saw it as "I'm never good enough for you" and I got frustrated that she was never happy no matter how hard I tried. So early on, my angry reactions to her unhappiness caused more unhappiness and she tried a few times to end the marriage, once by a previous affair. But after counseling and kids maturing and issues better understood, I thought we had turned the corner. I understood her and accepted I was never going to get anything more than the small amount of love she might have left over for others after first using most of it to take care of loving herself. That's my codependence. But I felt that was a source of reason to be together and that eventually the pattern would reverse and good marriage times would help individual self-esteem and the same spiral that took us down could take us up.

But therapy was tough for each of us and we resisted dealing with those core family issues from our childhood and stopped therapy too soon once friendship and fun and intamacy returned to our relationship. The affair has created a new crisis, but for the recovery to be successful long term, it is clear to me we have to get at the root self-love issue before the other-love issue.

So that's why she is seriously contemplating divorce and why our recovery is not going to be typical. I think we need separation and the space and time and return to therapy to remind oursleves this is not the fault of me or the marriage. The marriage is just the catalyst that brings it to the surface. As shawshank redemption taught us, "salvation lies within" and we need that self-love and acceptance first and need to keep working at our deamons before we can work at sharing a life.

As she said, it is not a marriage when you constantly feel you are not meeting the others needs. But in our case, we may simply not be healthy enough even at our age to have the ability or energy to meet others needs after meeting or masking our own. So we need to recover something we never had . . . or continue to lose it once we get close to having it.

It sounds to me like you've been listening to the Fog too long.

Every wayward claims that the love isn't there, that it never was and it was all wrong from the start.

It's part of the script.

The two of you married. You had something once.

You can have it again.

STOP listening to the Fog.

Let's stay away from concerns over popularity, pls, because it's not about that at all. Any negative comments you received on the SAA forum were made out of the frustration that other posters felt while they watched your cafeteria-style approach to exposing your WW's A.

No one says MB's approach to killing an A and recovery works for everyone. No one says every marriage will be saved, or is even salvageable, or that matter. Sometimes the best outcome for everyone involved is the end the marriage.

But when we see someone who wants to save the M come here for advice and then start picking and choosing and relying on Plan Hope, we just cringe and hope it works for them. It often, often does not. Enough that we cringe when we see it coming.

FWIW, I still think your M is salvageable. But I suspect it won't end well for you the way you're headed. I do wish you luck, though.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. She's not interested in marrying OM and he's not interested in leaving his BW, but these two will remain together. Kinda like Jackie O and Maurice Tempelsman.

I'm not going to 2x4 you here, but I'll ask you "what is your plan?" The beauty of MB is that it is a PLAN, a plan for ending A's and eventually R your M. You obviously chose not to follow the plan, and now you are feeling the repercussions of that.

Separation in just an excuse for her to continue to have sex with another man. She will not be working on herself or contemplating her M at all. She will just be thinking about how much easier it is now to have sex with OM. Be a man and tell her if she wants to separate, make HER leave. She's probably thrilled right now that soon she will be able to bang OM in your bed, in your home. Why on earth would you make it all comfy and cozy for her to continue her A? Unbelievable.

If you want to save your M, you must blow this A out of the water. That means exposure to everyone. Now.

You cannot even begin to think about R while she is still involved in an A. You are not even close to that point right now. Go back to the SAA forum and listen to the advice, or continue to be a doormat and enjoy your upcoming S and then D soon after.

If you understand codependence you will understand me when I say "if I thought divorcing me and returning to the OM, would make WW happy, that would make me happy!". But she and I both know that would not be the case and is why that issue quickly left the table.

Our issue is this: Every time our marriage gets stronger and our intimacy gets stronger, our fear of abandoment causes us not to trust the intimacy and the reaction to that fear is to withdraw from the intimacy. That behavior is not normal nor healthy, but it is not our choice, it is the personalities our damaged childhoods created. If you don't think you are good enough, you are vulnerable to people who do tell you that. In our case, hearing it from me is never enough because of past history where she heard differently while I struggled with understanding her lack of happiness. Hearing it from someone new is attractive and addictive and caused the affair. But she is aware enought to know it would only be temporary and is probably why she chose someone distant and unavailable.

So can we just play what if and help me and others like me with the real issue. How do we see another failure as a learning opportunity instead of another commitment to fail again?

Codependence can be addressed and treated, as can many disorders.

The first step in recovery is identifying the problem. The second step is asking for help.

It seems you have already done the first.

Doing the second is difficult, but not impossible.

This isn't the site to address mental health issues.

Codependence is the other side of addiction. You'll read here that no help can be given to recover and rebuild marriages until the addiction is addressed. Address your codependence issues and I think it's likely you'll find a lot of your marital problems will have "mysteriously" disappeared!

Pls, you seem to think you're talking to a bunch of Pollyannas who never left the farm. And you can't be more mistaken.

Welcome to the world of the dysfunctional childhood family. I grew up in poverty. Was emotionally abused. Sexually abused. Physically abused. Had a birth father who refused to recognize me (ouch.) Wore my brother's clothes to school. Had the church bring our family food on holidays. Had an alcoholic father and an enabling mother. Watched my drunken father pointing a gun at my mother when I was ten.

You want to hear some more? Because there is more. My H, OTOH, had one of the cushiest lifestyles you could want as a child. Ozzie and Harriet incarnate. Guess who had the affair?

And that's just ME. Others here can tell you similar stories of a childhood that sucked.

Navel-gazing and relying on psychobabble to remove the option of effort to build a great marriage will get you - a failed marriage. 'Fear of abandonment' is a handy little phrase that people use to attempt to justify something that isn't there.

Either you're in or you're out when it comes to recovering and building a marriage. Childhood episodes are a distraction to that effort and serve to derail recovery while 'important examinations' of events 20, 30, 40 years ago are placed high on the importance scale.

That will not serve you.

Your WW had her affair because she has poor boundaries and was given the opportunity to have needs met that you were neglecting or were unaware of. Meeting each other's needs is where the rebuilding begins. Not that she got passed over for volleyball when she was 11.

You follow the basic concepts and articles on this forum. The plan to create romantic love works whether you ever had romantic love or not, because this is how romantic love is created.

Personally, I think it's great you are already looking into this issue.

Be aware though that the plan doesn't work unless followed. And while the plan works regardless of your past or current "issues," meaning you don't have to pay through the nose for counseling that goes on for years teaching you navel-gazing and psychobabble before you even get started, the plan won't work if you have issues that prevent you from following the plan, such as abuse or addiction. And an affair is an example of a powerful addiction.

Every trip to the bar to stare at drinks sets recovery back and keeps the addiction current. KWIM?

I agree and was actually thinking about it before you posted - this is not the place for dealing with the codependency issues - and I will need to do other things to deal with that. But I am serious about ending the A and R the M. So serious, I don't want to screw it up by solving an easier problem rather than dealing with the root. That's why I posted the status because 15 years ago, I solved the easier problem or became complacent that the tougher problem was solved which is why I'm here and maybe someone else will learn from that mistake.

It's the same place, dude. It's all one forum.

Why did you post this here in "Recovery" Do you actually think you are in recovery? You still should be on your other thread in "Surviving an Affair" There is no recovery in your posts that I can see.

It does not surprise me that your WW now wants a D and wants you out? Why on earth would you be the one tomove out? Don't do that. It will not serve you well regardless of whether or not you recover your marriage. I can not stress this enough. DON'T MOVE OUT AND EXPOSE THIS NOW.

On the contrary, this is an excellent place for dealing with your codependency issues.

The first thing you do is try to work this program. Seriously.

Right now codependency is just a label for your excuse not to work the program as given.

I read your post above where you mentioned codependency and personally I felt like step one to overcoming codependency was screaming out at me like a sore thumb: stop enabling your wife's affair. You're doing it, bud. You can stop doing it. Whether you call it "codependency" or not, here's the steps to follow, and if you follow them you will maximize your chances of ending that affair. If you don't follow them, calling it "codependency" might make you feel better, I guess. But your excuse seems kinda fluid and vague and changing. One minute it's because you think contact at work is okay, now it's because you're codependent. Face up to the real problem, bud: you don't want to do these things that people are suggesting you do. You don't want to follow the advice you've been given, the advice you came here looking for, the advice that has saved an awful lot of marriages before you ever came along.

In my post I listed two reasons that cause people not to work the plan. One was addiction and one was abuse. Which one of those was codependency? Neither. Codependency is not keeping you from working the program. You won't work the problem because you don't want to work the program.

Addiction will keep people from being able to work the program.

An affair is an addiction.

Got it?

Man up and take care of that problem, and you will be "codependent" no more.

I may be way off base. If so, I know I'll be corrected.

Right there is why you are separated and getting a divorce because YOU DID NOT follow the MB plan. If you still do not want to follow the MB plan then please do yourself a favor and file for a divorce.

But if you do want to follow the MB plan then do exactly what we told you to do 2 weeks ago.

But don't come here and refuse to not work MB because you will get NO sympathy from anyone WHY?

BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T LISTEN!

Sorry for harsh words I am very blunt and tell you exactly what I think.

Good luck.

The problem is not "co-dependence," but rather conflict avoidance and enabling. "Co-dependence" is just an excuse to not lift a finger to save your marriage.

Dr Harley called this one right when he said "it's hard to save a marriage when you become an enabler." radio clip here

PNA, Your wife has had two affairs through your marriage, and now she wants a divorce. I know you are a bright guy, I am guessing economics professor? And you think you had this beat. You do not, its circling the drain.

If you are going to ever take advice, take Mels. She seen more and read more than every marriage counsellor in your town combined.

What you are doing is failing badly and you are running out of time. I think its time you started listening to Mel. Pronto. Your marriage is screwed, you have nothing to lose. If she tells you to stand on your head and sing the national anthem, you should do it.

I am new but I have been around enough to know the score. Its not hard for an outsider to see where this is going.

BTW real glad you're back. Now listen up.

I am listening Mel but the old therapist was absolutely correct. WW bolted and went right to D to flee. She said she would have done it without hesitation if I had turned this into a public university scandal. I fear separation but having agreed to it I don't see how turning to exposure now does anything but make me look crazy and uncommitted to our current mc plan. I bought her Saa book but she read just a portion and said those people are crazy . . . Who would want to reconcile with someone that ended your career without coming to you first. Believe me her affair is over!!!! We are dealing with what now and me coming down with demands is just going to make that phone call and it's over.
It's not enabling. It's surviving another day. We cuddled all night. She even kissed me and thanked me for taking her out. But today is move out day by 6 so my only plan was to ask her to talk about postponing separation and trying Saa plans first in addition to counseling?? She might but she is really not afraid of D or exposure. She is comfortable in the role of victim either way.

I am desperate for advice that works but it has to be relevant to the people and history and not just the formula that attracts people to this site

edited to add: btw, separation for about two months was part of the first affair recovery (20 years ago) so there is some history in her and my mind that it can be successful.

I am very glad that MelodyLane linked that codependency article for you. "Codependency" and "Mid-life Crisis" need to be removed from the English language.

There are things in your M that sound EXACTLY like how my M was...and we weren't codependent. We were just lazy and scared. Both you and your WW have the tools or can easily (here) learn the tools for meeting each other's needs. But M takes WORK. And sometimes that work is challenging. And sometimes you need to CHANGE things about yourselves. And no, you don't always get everything "right" on the first try....so you try again.

You said something about exposing her A to a counselor....does that mean your W is a teacher? I am a music teacher, and my A was with the art teacher at my school. Now, I will say that I can understand (and I know that isn't exactly what everyone thinks and that's okay) your W finishing out the year because if she is like almost every other teacher, she signed a contract. HOWEVER, either she or the OM need to be applying for other teaching jobs for next year. Period. There is no situation "unique" enough not to do that.

Now remember I am speaking as a FWW...one who had allowed herself to become completely self-absorbed and had all the "psychology" in place to justify it. "Listening to her voice" is the last thing you need to do. Her voice is so full of skewed thinking, selfishness, and justification even SHE shouldn't be listening to it. That isn't mean. In fact, the unloving thing to do would be to LET her stay in this terrible deceived place. It's like letting a child play in the street because you don't want to "stunt their self-esteem" by yelling at them to get out of the road.

If she is preparing to file....YOU aren't the one who needs to find a place to live. The one who cheat and leaves the M leaves the house. She needs to feel every single consequence of her actions.

Now I am not the legalistic type. I freely admit that I have complemented MB with other places in some areas of my M. But the things you are trying to get around are foundational. I mean, it's one thing to use NIV instead of King James Bible. It's another to leave out half the New Testament, if you get my drift.

You should read SAA if you haven't already. And whatever counselor it is that has fed y'all this inward turned codependent stuff...fire them.

The A was between her and a consultant that lives in another city. According to OMS, he is also in intensive counseling, both medical and mental because of failure to take medication before and during affair. I really think I can move past worry about NC and move to saving the M.

I agree that her mind does not see things clearly now and that's why it is difficult to listen to a screwed up voice. But her reasoning for D is that she feels she cannot be with anyone anymore and just wants to be alone. She doesn't care what happens next, she just wants to be alone and not confront. She hates confrontation.

So my options are to scored LB points by giving her that space and time. Separation = Risky, painful, against advice. But what is the alternative?? Making her move out would initiate that phone call - trust me!

BTW, she just asked me what she should fix for dinner?? Today was supposed to be move out day?? How do I handle that one? Not looking for an answer, but just pointing out the eggshells of this period of recovery and the anxiety every word or action causes. What is going on in her mind?? Do I ask and put her back on defensive, or go with the flow and put off separation another day??

The formula works. Read enough threads, and you see that.

Find me one that covers this:

WW has ended A and agreed to NC.
Her method of dealing with the shame and guilt of the A is not remorse and reconciliation but rather a determination that the M must be flawed, so the best choice is to use the cleanup of the A as an opportunity to end M with a D to prevent future relapses. Her failure to seek D already has more to do with sympathy for me than desire for a recovery alternative.

My challenge is to end D plan without separation and encourage recovery efforts - or accept separation as an enabling step toward recovery.

I cant find a thread that deals with this scenario. Most talk about BS filing for D, not WW. I do learn from the WW threads, though, particularly about the duration and effect of the A fog.

This is very irrational in view of the fact that she is divorcing you. She is leaving you for the OM. So, no the therapist is not correct obviously. You are getting divorced. Maybe nothing could save your marriage but you really don't know because you didn't try to save it.


I don't believe this. I believe you are desperate for any plan that serves your main goal, which is to avoid conflict at all cost. The cost is the loss of your marriage. As you can see.

The "formula" that attracts people to this site does so because it works. So if someone is looking for advice that works, it will be relevant to them. If they are looking for a means to avoid conflict, rather than save their marriage, of course it won't be relevant to them.

Your way doesn't work. As you can see. Conflict avoidance and enabling does not work. But you already know that.


Apparently it wasn't "successful" because she had another affair and is divorcing you. Separation does not help marriages, it harms them and increases the risk of divorce.

PlsNotAGAIN, you are more foggy than most waywards who show up here. Your best thinking has ruined your marriage and there isn't anything we can do if your goal is conflict avoidance instead of saving your marriage. You can't save a marriage by avoiding conflict. As you already know..

I call BS on this. Her reasoning for talking D is to cow you into shutting up and allowing her to continue leading her independent lifestyle.

You scared her, Pls, when you stood up for your M. She didn't like that - it threatened her lifestyle. So she upped the ante by one-upping the card you played: "Oh, yeah, you think you can scare me with exposure? Watch this - I'm going to threaten divorce, whattya think of that?"

Separation is risky, yes. What's equally bad is for your WW to cower you into her continued IB. She's trying to shift the power back into her corner, and she knows that threatening divorce will accomplish that. Because she smells your fear.

Just about every other woman I know would fit the personality type you guys are describing and I would have much different options with them. My wife is not like them. What works with them will drive her away - forever. Conflict is kryptonite here and anything that looks like control and agressiveness will send her gladly running away to D content that she was justifiably escaping abuse regardless of the facts. If you look back, you will see me confronting a lot and winning a lot and following a lot of advice given here regarding many issues. Those skills are not useful here at this point in recovery. This is not a streetfight. This is mental health treatment. I need advice relevant to the facts. I can't change the facts to fit the advice.

She is not interested in others. She is interested only in preservation of self. Her heart is thawing a little but rock hard and her mind does not process like you guys want. She will flee, not fight the conflict, and only realize the consequences to her far too late to do either of us any good.

I agree 100% with your post. The smart play normally is to call the bluff and play my big cards of exposure and ultimatum, but that ends this game - it does not win it for me.

I am dealing only with the next issue which is the separation. I might be able to avoid separation today and that is good because we are having a lot of good LB things I cannot do in separation. That is as far as I dare push at this point.

Mel, it is not irrational. Please believe me, the OM is dead, dead, dead!!! That horse is dead, quit beating it. This went very quickly to D and me and the choice of being alone or with me, not with OM.

More than likely it's not dead. She is just getting you out of the way.

Someone is headed for the School of Hard Knocks.. Good luck, my friend.

Man, I wish I had a nickel for every BS who thought his or her wayward was 'different' or that their affair was a special case in some way.

Your wayward is so garden-variety that I can tell you what she will do next. We've seen this movie before. But you don't need that from me, because you know her better, right?

Good luck doing it your way. I'll not burden you with my thoughts since you already have it all figured out and don't need any advice. Gotcha.

Good luck. (And btw, pls? You're not in recovery. Just in case you weren't sure.)

Pls......I'm sorry, but y'all really aren't that special. I was just like your wife when I was wayward. The reason your wife is like this is not because she is "unique" but because she is wayward.

"So my options are to scored LB points by giving her that space and time."

The above quote makes no sense....you aren't going to feel her LB by being absent. That is hogwash....absence does NOT make the wayward heart grow fonder. It makes the wayward heart reconnect with the OM or find a new one. Period.

You are stubborn. You need to channel that stubbornness into strategy that actually makes sense. It's time to quit tiptoeing around your wife. Do not move out of that house. I do not believe NC is something you can count on. And as far as the OM and meds and all that stuff....if he has a mental issue, it isn't going to be fixed overnight.

I can't remember who it was here, but someone who was here for a long time used to ask: what would you do if you were not afraid?

WOW...he really has no clue...my oh my will he go bonkers when he finds out that she is still seeing the OM...after the divorce and see's their wedding pix in the news paper.

You my friend is a loss cause

You did nothing to save this marriage by avoiding conflict and nothing mel or anyone will say that will change your mind.

So divorce her and be done with this charade.

PNA, at least do yourself a favour, even if you take no other advice...

Start up or continue to snoop your butt off. When she contacts OM again if and when that happens, you need to know it.

At least do that.

All the best, sincerely.

Looking back, the best advice from this forum was - let's just call it "gathering truth", not "snooping". I am continuing that with the support of OMS. Thanks. Even as recovery might progress, I understand the fog and loss of perspective and compassion and the addiction involved so I can see a desire on both parts to communicate and end things "properly" even in the desire to "make amends". These are both people who have lifelong reputations of integrity and good so it will be tempting for them to contact each other in the name of integrity and good. That will be hard to prevent but I will try and full exposure is the consequence.

But back to my bigger issue, I'm still not certain where we are. There's been no talk of separation "implementation" but we meet with MC later this week and I'm sure that will be a topic. I'm trying to use this opportunity until then to show love without being smothering and without expectation of anything in return other than time to process and heal. Hopefully, time will help healing and the hardness and defensiveness will soften. I still think the most valuable thing we need is finding a path forward that gives her space to process without me having to leave and be partially removed from that process. But I feel helpless in making that happen. Anything I do to encourage it will be defended against and yield the opposite result - you hate hearing that as much as I hate saying it, but that's reality and not worth a "just try it" risk.

I am wondering sometimes why am I still posting here? She might even be reading this. I guess its because despite the fact that I have no clue who you are and what you have experienced, the reality is that you are the only people I know that have been through this and that I can learn from. I value your opinions even though I don't act on the advice the way you might prefer. I am reading more than I write and I do see how much you help others and understand how frustrating it must be when you reach out to someone that does not take your hand. I can only repeat that my W is my W because she was and is unique and that has brought us more better than worse in our M. What she felt in the A is less important right now than what she felt before the A and that is why I focus on that issue.

Ther is nothing more important to me than doing this right.

With a little luck your OM has moved onto less thorny targets. Sounded like he was a serial, so maybe you get lucky there.

Lets hope.

This is Pot/Kettle syndrome. It is not okay for you to do this, but is okay for her to.

You are doing Plan "Save marriage at all costs."

The first thing to do about your codependency issues is to set boundaries.


This is really LOL funny! On the one hand you say she is unique and on the other hand you came up with a formula for calculating the probabilities of saving your marriage with limited exposure. So which is it? Not so unique that she can be calculated or unique that she doesn't respond to normal MB principles.

Please stay around. Everybody likes watching a train wreck. And it looks like you're headed for a huge KABOOM!

You can probably get me to listen more closely and make your point better without the LOL nonsense.

I'm up to page 16 of the recovery threads and I have yet to find another thread where the WW met with a lawyer to D the BS one week after exposure of any sort with no plan of ever seeing OM (save the sarcasm, he's not an issue). . . find that and then we can talk about normal versus unique. Is there a reverse Plan B I'm missing?

I am trying to do Plan A and buy time to do more Plan A. I've done pretty well for 3 days and it looks like I get 3 more. After that ???

Isn't this what you've been doing in your marriage? And it hasn't worked, has it?

You're missing the whole point. It isn't the color of your WW's skirt or what specific thing she did that decides whether she is unique. It's the mindset. Yes, there are many people here who had (or were) WW's who responded to accountability for their actions by pitching a b*tchy little hissy fit (AKA meeting with a lawyer) and who never planned to see the OM again who was in a public position that might get "tarnished" if any9one found out. So you can keep being a wimp with your wife and purposely stubborn here.....or you can LISTEN.

Honestly, I don't understanding asking question you know the answers to and then refusing to follow data-driven and time tested advice that has worked for hundreds of people in a variety of marriages.

Your wife is not a super special gifted professor with a unique slant on adultery. She is just like any wayward who doesn't want to be told what to do. Period. I used to BE wayward.....I KNOW.

Please do not call your exposure an "exposure" there are real BS's here who are looking for help and we do not want them to read your thread and think it is ok to half [censored] exposure.

Yep yep & yep. A half-baked exposure can do more damage than no exposure at all.

There are a lot of BS's who have picked and chosen from the MB menu, and that's a recipe for disaster. From being afraid to expose, to thinking the wayward's job is more important than their marriage, to being afraid another angry betrayed spouse might just dance a jig on their wayward spouse's head - we've seen all the reasons for refusing to follow a time-proven plan to save their marriages. Those reluctant betrayeds will typically try a half-committed attempt to save their M, and are often the recipients of divorce papers.

All because they didn't want to anger their wayward spouse.

Well mine said we were done, she didn't want either one of us. Not sure if she saw a lawyer, but we were done. And now we're not. Still on the road, and I will take all the advice I can from these good people. And follow it. But I did full exposure, and WW is still dealing with fallout.

You won't see me being sarcastic with you, I respect the position you are in, and I feel for all the BHs on here. This is the worst experience of my life, and I am trying to pay it forward.

Yes, I agree but isn't that normal at this stage of withdrawal. Isn't the objective here to buy time so Plan A and Protection can help build momentum for future stages of recovery.

The title of my thread was chosen to try and confess that I must not have been doing something right in the M regarding EN. I want the recovery to end someplace better than the state of the M was before the A started but that's not the objective short term. I guess I'm confused about dealing with withdrawal. She's trying to blame the M instead of herself and whatever EN I was not fulfilling so I thought I was buying time until she was came to that realization??

You're enabling her to keep that mindset with your inaction. You are coddling her. You are taking the blame for her. That isn't helping her....at all.

Go back and read EVERY article here and then buy SAA and read it cover to cover. Plan A is not plan doormat.

I guess what everyone is trying to get across, is we all want you to get to the same place. Yes use the carrot. But they want you to use more stick.

You think you did, you think you maxed out what you could "get away with" in terms of stick. You see a piece of oak that you used, we see a popsicle stick.

PlsNotAgain, I re-read many of your threads. I could quote them, but for the sake of time I hope that it is okay for me to paraphrase.

First, you say that she fears being abandoned. I don't think she fears that. You have proven that you are unwilling to tell her "enough is enough, I want out." She knows that. I think YOU are the one who is afraid of abandonment. This is why you always choose the path of least resistance. And I am not talking about the exposure - I am talking about giving her space, trusting her implicitly after she has proven untrustworthy, etc.

Next, you say that her childhood resulted in a bad M and the ensuing affairs. I call BS on this. Many of us here have had alcoholic parents, abusive relationships, abandonment, rape, murder, death of children, etc. Her childhood is a bogus excuse. In fact, she has the ability to produce a happy M inside her, as do you. And it has nothing to do with childhood. In fact, if she really was afraid of being abandoned, you would think she would work hard to keep you. Your theory (or is it her therapist's theory) just doesn't hold water.

You mention that your downward spiral in your M was caused in part to failure of both of you to fill each other's EN's. This did not contribute to it. It is the MAIN reason for it. It led to her A's, not the other childhood issues.

One of the recommendations on MB is that couples spend at least 15 hours per week together. I have experienced, as have some of the seasoned vets that whenever we stop spending as much time with our spouses, the quality of our M goes down. Fulfilling each other's EN's, avoiding LB's, putting in place boundaries, etc. is a proven plan for a successful M, and is one of the things that this site is all about.

If she thinks SAA is crazy, perhaps HNHN would be a better read for her. HNHN is more about building M's. I would also think that counseling with the Harley's would be your last shot to build the kind of M you desire. The road you are on hasn't worked before and will not work again. Given her space does not lead to falling in love again. Only being together does that.

And as for the initial question in your thread, yes you can recover what you never had. And it is awesome.

I have the SAA. The way I read page 70/71 is that this withdrawal period is not the time to create conflict - but simply to stay together and wait out the lift of the fog "It was important that they avoid anger, disrespect, or demands while they were together. They were to simply keep each other company for a few weeks (withdrawal) and avoid doing anything that would make matters worse."

I read that as "this is not the time to be agressive". What should I be doing?

Find the quote on that one. I don't think she fears abandonment - I think she would rather be alone and so does our therapist. She prefers to flee than confront. I've said that often. She fears intimacy!!! She runs from conflict. If I create it, she's gone and happily so because she can feel she is running from a guy that just wants conflict. For good? - I don't know. But she is one click from filing signed D papers. Why would I want to confront now during withdrawal just to watch that click?

And I do fear abandonment - absolutely. Througout life. Lost Dad, Mom, brother, friends, pets, . . . children gone. This stage of life is one lost bond after another. Now the A. Then D. Doesn't every BS at this point?

And it is because of our childhoods. Neither of us was ever good enough for our parents and told so often more by actions than words. Horrible for both. You never feel good enough to deserve love so you don't trust the love you get and you are limited in you ability to love others intimatly. I think that's a pretty universally held truth about children of alcoholic and abusers.

All I want to know is what to do now facing what I have to face in withdrawal. Going back on old threads is not helping that much. I have a WW with NC in withdrawal dealing with that roller coaster of flee and become a single nun or stay married and screw it up again. That is my situation. Help that, don't try and redefine it to fit some formula you do have a solution for. I see and agree with SAA principles after withdrawal - I'm just trying to make it to there.

R51 - Specifically, what more "stick" is not being used that should be used in this phase - withdrawal? Dont go back to that E word. I'll quote every line in SAA that talks to the objective of E and E has accomplished that objective and started the clock of withdrawal (with the appropriate Extra Prec that you and SAA advised).

R51 - I read this again, because I think you do know what I'm dealing with. What happened where those XXXXX's are up there that I added. She's saying we are done. When did that change for your FWW? Was it during withdrawal? If so, what made it change? If not, was withdrawal for you this difficult, huge swings every day, eggshells on eggshells everywhere, etc.

No. This is not correct. It is a distraction and a cop-out.

Recovery is hard. The part you are in is easy. Getting her to stay is easy. Its best for her.

Day 1 we are done
Day 2 we are done
week 2 we are done
week 3 do you want to get lunch, we are done
week 4 can you pick something up on way home
week 5 our friends hate me now
week 6 I Love you

My problem is now "can we not just put this behind us"

That is the tough sleding, getting buy in on new rules, new philosophy. Not keeping her there. Most WWs don't flee, even if you think yours will I doubt it. She has the same set of fears you do. Hey Mrs Professor left her husband, guess shes not perfect after all....

The exposure - fine I hope what you did is enough. It takes balls to jump the fence at some high end gated community. I hope hes gone.

But what we worry is they have gone underground, or into remission only to come back.

And now you are trying to get into recovery, using the carrot only, never having demonstrated how far you will go. I know you threatened, and maybe she believes you...or maybe not. Or maybe she thinks lie low and then she can reconnect. Or maybe the next guy to show an interest has an easier time because she isn't worried.

Here:

And once again:

This is a cop out and is not productive. It is an excuse. There is no basis for this. If she runs to bang another man because he compliments her, it is because 1) she is not getting that EN filled by you and 2) she has no boundaries. It is not because of her childhood. That's ridiculous. I'm not saying she doesn't have issues because of it, but causing her to engage in an adulterous affair is not one of them. Maybe this is a way for her to place responsibility on something out of her control. Or is it something that you are blaming it on to absolve you of responsibility? Just food for thought.

I have seen too many BH afraid to expose.

I have seen these BH come back whether months, a year, years later with a WW that is back doing the last OM or has moved on to a new OM.

How do you recover what you never had? Your CREATE it. I did not meet my W's emotional needs for many, many years before her A. I would not allow her to use it as an excuse, but since I wanted to save my M and make it into something better, I chose to stop making up excuses from my childhood and be the man I was capable of being.

I too agree that childhood issues have very little bearing on adult actions, if said adult is capable of adequate reasoning and critical thinking. Our therapist tried to go back to our childhood issues during counseling, and it truly was irrelevant to me in my opinion.

Sit your wife down and tell her that, as incredulous as this sounds, you are choosing to be a new man who will help make the M a great one, and tell her that she also has to CHOOSE to re-define the M. After 20 years of my behaving a certain way, I am proud to say that in the past 4 months, I am a new and improved man capable of enriching our M, because I CHOSE to do it!

You can too. Don't listed that crap about being a certain way because of your childhood. You and her are both adults, and you are both capbable of becoming new and improved spouses.

Don't let anyone tell you differently, regardless of how many letters follow their names.

PlsNotAgain, how are you doing?

Been a week since we heard are you OK?

Thanks for asking. In MC last week, she asked me to separate and repeated her wish for divorce but seemed willing to keep going to MC. When asked why she had not brought up the subject of separation during the previous week at home, she said she didn't want to hurt me. So at advice of MC, I'm in hotel with NC with her while she takes a couple of weeks to think things through without me in the house. Next MC appt next Thursday should be a crossroads. Separation alone in a hotel room is tough, a real rollercoaster of emotions and a real lonely world.

You have an absolutely horrible marriage counselor. Seriously bad.

The counselor is going to guide your selfish wife right into a divorce.

I know you have taken some hits on here. But I think you and I respect each other, and you know I have followed you for a long time.

Go home. Plan A. Fire the counsellor. Hire Steve.

Another wayward gets their way and boots their husband out. I hope you're not paying too much to this person who is counseling you.

Gave her a little 'space', did you?

Marital, thanks for your help this am. One other question waiting for you - might seem like a dumb one.

And I have to learn how you do the little characters, they crack me up.

PNA, again I am convinced moving out and allowing space is WRONG.

I agree w/ Reyonlds and MB. If there is any way you can get back in that house, do it.

My biggest regret (though I try not to have regrets) is agreeing to move out of my house after D-Day. Not only did this allow the A to grow unimpeded and at-will, but it also created a situation where, when trying to reconcile, the marital house was filled with reminders and bad memories--it's a triggerfest. Furthermore, I waited too long after Marital Bliss and others told me to get back in the house--every week that went by was another week where more triggers were created and the A strengthened.

Certainly not overcomable, but not ideal.

Get back in that house any way you can.

Stuck and I have been working together for a while. We hopefully will never have to end up being roommates - no offense Stuck...but the man knows what hes talking about. Hes been there.

PNA you around today? Digesting or discounting?

Yes, I'm here. But I'm getting conflicting advice from MC and you and others so its hard to know which to digest. I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to post anymore. I trust my wife and I trust my MC. Thanks for your support through this crazy time. I think I came here out of fear and that's something I need to work on.

You trust your wife? Do you realize how that sounds?

You were afraid when you arrived and you are still afraid. How about working on it? How do you plan to do that?

Got time to talk to Steve on your own? I am just a dude who got cheated on. Hes the pro. I say call him and spend an hour. Worst case you are out some cash and you have another opinion you can't reconcile. But he will lay out a plan to get your wife back. Has that been a stated goal of your MC? Or is the stated goal making you "happy"?

Just saying.

Snooping turned up anything?

You trust your wife? The one who lied to you and cheated on you?? And your MC, who told you to leave your own house???

This thread is one of the saddest I've ever read here. To me, Pls sounded like he was truly Powerless! I have a question for all the vets:

Pls kept on saying that he is scared to be more threatening or to take exposure further than he was comfortable with, because that would make his wife run even faster to D. The advice here seemed to be 'don't matter, just go ahead and expose'.

What would your follow up advice be, if the events DID turn out like that for Pls? I.e, if he did expose in 'the right way' and his wife then filed for divorce? Maybe this advice will be more helpfull.

Also, it seems that many of us assume that a betrayed spouse has been an 'angel' and all he/she needs to do is expose; and the WS should then quickly get scared and turn right back into the M. What if a BS was the worst ever spouse? What if there was unbelievable levels of emotional abuse (always present in codepency issues), such that the M is over with or without an A? What if a BS is sooooooo in the red in the love-bank, that they don't even have a right to ask for a conversation/demand/whatever?

I don't know how to better explain my point. But it seems to me that you can have a spouse who has been so bad, she/he is in no position to even negotiate - nevermind make demands. Or put another way, you can have a situation where one spouse has been so abused/neglected/emotionally abandoned prior to an A, that any move on the part of the other spouse (such as ruining the other's job by exposure) would be the last nail.

I guess I'm just sympathetic to the powerlessness of the whole situation; or the risk.

Exposure was not the only thing lacking in his plan (if you can call it a plan). They also were going to a traditional MC who wasn't very pro marriage. He also made excuses that his W's A was because she had alcoholic parents. He alo conveniently moved out for her, allowing her the space needed to continue the A, instead of making her move out. I'm sure I'm missing some things, but it seemed like he did just about everything opposite from MB. This was entirely predictable.

I think the theory is that regardless of what the past is, you cannot heal your marriage with three people in it. Exposure takes care of that issue.

In terms of sitting down with a MC and getting the WS to leave the affair and work on the marriage, it does not work. Been there, done that. I hope PNA threatening exposure works for him.

WS's don't leave because the got exposed.

WS's leave because after being outed they can no longer fence sit.

WS's that were going to leave were going to leave when it suited them and according to their WS schedule. All exposure did was force their hand to move up the date they were going to leave their BS.

WS's, the same way they justify their affair now use exposure as the justification that they are now divorcing their BS.

You see the WS has to make sure in their mind that they were not to blame for any of this.

This is why exposure does not always work because the WS was stick a fork in them done with their BS and were never going to atempt recovery.

It is there fore better to expose even this type of WS because why should a BS have to put up with their WS leaving at night to bang the OP?

It is much better to see the WS walk out the door to never come back then to keep seeing the WS come home every morning after banging the OP all night.

This is a common misconception held by newcomers. There is a REASON why vets and those who have saved their marriages are not concerned about "exposure causing divorce." Because it doesn't. What causes divorce is NOT EXPOSING. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping them a secret is the most likely thing to result in divorce. We have seen it time and time again. It is just common sense that protecting an affair is not healthy to a marriage.

Exposure will never prevent a WS from recovering her marriage if she wants to recover it. Wild horses would not stop her, much less exposure. Resentment over exposure is a sign of the fog, and the fog is more likely to go away if the affair is exposed.

Exposure

But how would you know what is or isn't helpful? What is your background? I don't agree that would be helpful because it is an unrealistic outcome. What is not helpful is your unncessary fanning of the fear flames out of your ignorance. Why not move on and allow us to help this man. Your post is not helpful in the least.

And these kind of comments demonstrate absolutely no understanding of Marriage Builders. First off, there is no alcohol and drug addiction in this marriage so "co-dependency" is irrelevant. And even if it were, it has absolutely nothing to do exposure. Even if he did emotionally abuse his spouse, it does not entitle his spouse to abuse him with an affair. And most certainly has no relevance to exposure.

Why did you post the above paragraph, mamma? Can you show me a citation from Dr Harley that says that any of this?

mamma, you sure don't sound like someone who has been here since 2005 with posts like that. All I see from you is some fueling of the fear, which is not helpful. This man is fearful enough, so I view your post as a distraction on a thread where this poster really needs help.

Why not show that you have any idea what you are talking about and answer his fears? You didn't do that, sadly.

What was your old screen name?

Nevermind.

Hi all. I'm back here after 5 months to learn more about recovery. My other thread "How do I expose the affair" is also in this forum and I posted some of the new news there thinking it was still in the Infidelity forum. From now on, I'll just monitor this forum, which is where I believe I need to be now.

So much has changed, I don't know where to begin so I'm going to start by just reading other threads in this forum and posting questions here as they develop. We leave for vacation together in the mountains next week which will give us unlimited time together for two weeks to continue our recovery work.

I watched Amy Wambach score in the last minute of World Cup soccer today. There was no way I thought the USA would tie the game and survive to make it through to the next round. There was no way I thought my marriage would survive to make it through the EA, through divorce filing, to where it is today either. Like the USA though, it just means we get to move on to the next challenge. Like Hope Solo said (a very relevant name by the way!), we're here to win a tournament, not just a game. I see recovery as that ongoing tournament and the elation of making it to here needs to be replace by sobering truth in preparation for what is next.

R51-
This turned out to be my experience. I did not move out. But I did not mention affair, divorce, marriage, etc or try to "fix" in any way other than Prevention. I detached and worked on myself and made my own plans for moving on and quit pursuing. Sometime around "week 4", she mentioned how badly she needed a vacation. Where would you go I asked? She said the beach. I fixed her up and sent her to the same state where OM lives - that's how certain I knew the affair was over. Two days later, while actually driving home from my lawyer's office, she calls and says she really is having a good time and does not want to come home yet - IS THERE ANY WAY I CAN FLY DOWN AND JOIN HER?? Boom! We had a great time, but it seemed too soon, so I remained fun, but detached and did not make any sexual or relationship moves and did not pursue which I think made her really think - what is going on with him? Why didn't he ask about the divorce? Why is he not interested in this tan, sexy body?? Wow, is he looking good!!

Really, that one phone call from a beach hotel came out of the blue and the whole dynamic changed and "week 5" soon became "week 6". In May, she finally said those things that needed to be said and we have begun recovery and rebuilding and my favorite, re-avoiding.

So, thanks for the advice. It does happen this way sometimes and she did eventually emerge from fog and recommit to finding something better than what we had. My goal too!

Really, thank you, R51. You were one of few that seemed to give me the benefit of the douby that the affair was indeed over so where do we put our emphasis during withdrawal if D is on but A is off. I put the emphasis on myself and quit trying to control what I could not. And that made all the difference.

Optimism is quickly squashed here (for good reason), but I'm a very, very happy man who not long ago was a very, very sad man!! I like happy much better. So I'm still in a bit of Withdrawal Honeymoon. What does Month 2 look like??

P.S. Not an Economics prof, but close.

1) How much UA time do you & your wife get?

2) What are her top emotional needs?

3) What are yours?

4) What EPs has she got in place?

Pls, what is your plan for recovery?

1) How much UA time do you & your wife get?
Two hours on weekdays Four hours on weekend days is our goal and so far so good.

2) What are her top emotional needs?
What she describes as "feeling good about herself" which covers a lot of things mental, physical, cosmetic, relationship, etc.
A peaceful home that is more "refuge" than "base of operations"
Nonsexual affection and attention
Sleep, rest, time to herself
What she described as conflict avoidance which includes primarily family conflicts with our children and her relatives
Unconditional love and respect - meaning not just based on performance - what you guys call Love Bank

3) What are yours?
Appreciation - more along the lines of being satisfied more often without the constant feeling of the need to supply "Everything!"
Absolute confidence that we are on the same "team" - another way to say no lingering fear of abandonment or trust
Conversation about "difficult" topics - open communication rather than assumption making
Unconditional love and respect

4) What EPs has she got in place?
Open passwords to credit card, email, computer, etc.
Daily calls when out of town, no voice mail, real conversations
No delete policy on cell phone texts or VMs
GPS logging on cell
Same is being done by OMS with agreement to report any suspicious info

We are still in the process of figuring out the recovery acitivities. It looks like it will be influenced by recommendations and review of the following sources:

Jointly reading MB and other midlife crisis and codependency literature
Individual therapy for dealing with individual family issues and boundaries
Joint therapy directed by MC that is also the same source of IT
A recommitment event as a sort of "recovery accomplished" milestone
A life focus on what we call "third stage" planning of pre-retirement and retirement

We consciously decided not to rely on one source and diversify our approach because we want it to be a basis of our conversations (to help get double duty out of one of my emotional needs) comparing different approaches we find.

Fantastic work.


Read; basic concepts/emotional needs/admiration


Read; basic concepts/emotional needs/Domestic Support



Read; basic concepts/emotional needs/affection


This is met through use of PoJA and scheduling UA time.


This is not supported by MB - Radical honesty is.

Read; http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=9&sublink=65


Also not an MB concept.

Read; http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=9&sublink=540


I'll leave you to translate your own needs as you read the basic concepts.

"Appreciation" likely falls under Admiration.

Thanks - I like the signature line about critics.

One of the outcomes of our conversations to date is the agreement that "we try to talk it over, but the words get in the way". There is a tendency in the relationship and self-help industry that authors, counselors, and advisors try to get you to "buy" their words as if their definitions and word choices are absolutes and if you don't buy their word, you are doomed to failure. We both spend a lot of time in the literature of education and the same thing applies there. They make a life's work out of coming up with synonyms for "learning" and "teaching" and spend hours word-smithing the simplest of concepts as if doing better is based on describing better. Sometimes that is true, but actions and behaviors are much more than words. I am hoping to simplify our conversations and develop our own vocabulary that we agree to. Reading the same books at the same time and discussing has been very revealing how the same section means something completely different to each reader.

So we have a new boundary that kind of says, "don't use a word when a paragraph will do". Even the word "boundary" qualifies. And the worst part is that the same word changes meaning in a different context and a different source amd a different time - even between us. This actually becomes a source of anxiety between us because she quickly tires and wants to move on with a "whatever" and I love to break apart the semantics and connotations.

Take the first one - "Admiration/Appreciation". Appreciation means means to me that I can satisfice rather than optimize and a recognition that happiness had to be distinct from a completed list because the list forever remains incomplete. It is more a rational concept of priorities rather than an emotional concept of feelings. Admiration is closer in meaning to recognition for me. Appreciation is closer to security and physiological needs for rest and more time for people and less for things.

. . . and then you add the nonverbal on top of all that. Please don't turn the thread into an explantion of meanings. I'll read your references . . . again. Thanks.

That sounds good, as long as this time really is UA time meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation and rec companionship. No kids, friends or movies, TV, for example. What kinds of things do you do? Are you alone?


Well, none of these are really emotional needs, except affection. Some of them are bad for your marriage. For example, unconditional love is destructive and has nothing to do with the love bank. Dr Harley talks often about how destructive unconditional love is to marriages. "Time to herself" obviously is not an emotional need that creates romance in your marriage.


I would be sure and END her overnight travel altogether. Spending the nights apart is an invitation to an affair.

Has she ended ALL contact with the OM? She doesn't work with him, does she? And do you have some snooping methods on her that she DOES NOT know about? Because if she knows about all your methods she can easily work around them. The key is to have something in place she doesn't know about.

Please take the time to familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders, Pls, because as Dr Harley states, even small deviations from his plan is a disaster. I can just tell you from experience on this board, that not having a real plan usually results in repeat affairs. Ending the affair is only step ONE. If the next steps are not taken, ie: conditions that led to an affair changed and romance created in the marriage, repeat affairs are often the result. A non-recovered marriage is a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage and is more vulnerable to an affair than before.

Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on your wife's ability and willingness to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become completely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and make you feel safe. She must meet your needs in a way that until now she has failed.

PNA, I am really glad that you are in a better place, and frankly touched you remembered what I told you and that it helped.

This place and the people here can be tough, and you are still getting asked tough questions, but understand they only do that out of concern. They have seen it before and they will see it again.

My thought for you now is - floor the gas on changes you've made. One of my closest friends on this forum is an ER doctor in New England. Very high performing guy, mature, absolutely in love with his wife. Thought he had the affair killed, made some progress, on the road back. Then he let off on things and she did it again - second time in two years. He's fought harder this time, but she filed a couple of weeks back and this time exposure didn't work. Shes gone. Whenever I see BHs now I think of my buddy, and it motivates me. Don't be that guy - take the advice and meet each others needs, be confident, show leadership in your life.

It sounds like you are doing that, and I am really happy about it. I feel like I paid back part of my debt if you are going to make it. Just don't take your eye off the prize for one second.

And sometimes I can't decide - you almost sound like an English prof, and then Eco or Finance off and on too.

Wow, almost three years have passed since my last post here. My situation is back to normal, which is of course where I thought it was before the affair and divorce threat and crisis . . . so maybe call it a new normal.

I was never as sad and broken as I was when I was on this forum and I still appreciate the support of those that supported. It is strange to read my posts from that time as if it were just a nightmare or a drama played out by others.

To those that did not support my "partial disclosure" plan, it seems still to this day in my case to have been successful. The destruction of a professional career would have been too big a divide for her to come back to me. But I don't say that to influence others in their decisions - just to give you a single data point.

What I still take away from the crisis is the realization is that the root for much of this was not in only in our marriage, but in our childhood and personalities and the damage that comes from both being raised in families where role models of love did not exist and true trust was ruined from abuse and neglect.

We are survivors clinging to each other more than adventurers who found each other. But we are happier together than apart and I work the recovery plan still to keep it that way.

To those here still hurting, the best advice given to me was to work on myself and be patient. Those were terrible days and nights. Thanks to those that continue to monitor the forum and help.

Glad to hear you are well;

Have you eliminated all overnights apart?

Are you following the POJA?

Do you have 15-20 hours of UA time weekly?

The advice Dr. Harley offers for recovering from an affair is designed to give you the best chance for recovery. That doesn't mean that recovery is impossible otherwise; it is just less likely.

I can tell you that my recovered marriage is much better than before. A marriage that is "the same" as before is still vulnerable to another affair. You can do better than "the same" if you make a serious effort to employ MB principles into your marriage.

PNA,

I get the impression your WW never confessed, felt remorse, or gave you just compensation of any kind. WW and the OM escaped without a scratch.

This last affair seems like a repeat of her first affair.

God Bless
Gamma

This thread reminds me of talking to H's OWH. OW had had three affairs that he knew about and one abortion that he knew about and they continued on without changing much in their marriage. At best, they are miserable. At worst, she has had another affair or two.

AM