This is a bit after the fact, but between snow storm and power outages I couldn't get here. But I could still use some help, and maybe there are others who this thread may help...

My WH started a new job 13 months ago and it was great knowing that POSOW didn't know where he was or how to reach him... Well, the POSOW managed to do a little investigative work and figured out where my WH's new job is. From there she figured out his email address... So she sent a little love note to him last month. He immediately showed it to me. I told him to delete and ignore it. I was going to ask all of you for your opinion, but really didn't feel like she was worth spending much time on at this point. And I thought delete and ignore would be enough.

Two weeks ago my husband was on a business trip. This is a trigger for me - especially during this time of year. Even bigger trigger happens a few days in to the trip when I don't hear from him during the day until late afternoon. That evening I pulled up his work blackberry account (something I have access to as part of our EP's and RH). There were a few calls to information the day or 2 before. That morning HE HAD CALLED HER. They talked for over 2 hours.

I wrote him a very nasty email. I told him he wasn't welcome at home. I was so ready to shoot directly in to Plan B. But he talked me through it and calmed me down. He said it was stupid and that he regretted it, etc. etc. He still can't tell me why he felt he had to call. He started trying to tell me it was because he wanted to let her know he was very happy and that she shouldn't be emailing him, but I couldn't buy that. But once he called, now she has a phone number for him too... I am still pushing for "why". Big time. He's supposedly at a loss...

I must tell you that everything here has been wonderful this past year and a half. I thought I was going to get through this triggery time of year much better than last year and this was all behind us. Now I am a basketcase all over again.

Am I being too nice and accepting of this? Should I have put all of his clothes out on the front porch for his return and locked the door? A phone call seems like such a small infraction, but I feel like I've had the rug pulled out from under me again. I'm having a very hard time caring about meeting his EN's now that he's done this. (One of his top EN's is PA. I lost 40 pounds last year, but now I'm eating everything in sight... DS? Nope... I may have to change my screen name!!)

I find myself wanting him to hurt as badly as I do, and I know that is counterproductive. He does seem truly repentant, but he seemed that way over a year ago too.

I also want him to stop caring for the POSOW, but she's an "ex" from before me also (She's convinced that my hubby is her soul mate and that when she walked away from him 30 years ago it was the biggest mistake of her life...), so there is that "history" crap that is wrapped up in it all. I've showed him so many posts about managing those memories, but I think he likes having those memories - both the bad and the good.

So - what did I do wrong? I know what he did wrong, but I'm looking hard at how I reacted and where I am right now. I've been working MB for over 2 years now, and WH has been on board the last 18 months - up until this infraction. I went months without bringing up the A, and weeks without thinking about it. Now it's on my mind again constantly. What do I need to do to regain my sanity? How have some of you vets dealt with a breech in no contact after an extended time?

Also - what do we now do with POSOW? No contact letter take #2? (or would it be #3?) Honestly, at this point I want to call her and give her a piece of my mind, but I feel like that is too good for her - and would just make her happy that she's gotten under my skin again.

Thoughts?

He needs to immediately end his business trips, and I HIGHLY recommend he have a new job.

The reason that he called her was because once she made email contact, it was the equivalent of a hit off the crackpipe and when he was away on his trip and in withdrawal, he wanted another hit...and had the perfect opportunity to do it.

Dr Harley has written about this, how important it is that steps that must be taken to prevent ANY further contact because (a) of high the risk of the A reigniting are, (even if R has been going great!) and (b) how offensive it is to the BS.

I would present this to your H and see if he will agree:
1) Your H will need to change his phone number and email...again. Block all known email addresses from OW from the new email address.

2) Another NC letter should be sent by your H and included in there should be language to the effect that his phone number and email are being changed and any further attempts of contact by her will be met with a restraining order.

3) Integrate your lifestyles so that it would be next to impossible for him to reignite the affair (or have another one) Absolutely no more business/overnight travel, spend most of your free time together, etc.

Do you think he would agree to this? I think anything less and you will have a reigniting of the affair on your hands, not a matter of if but a question of when...especially given how persistent the OW is.

Has anyone in her family been exposed to? Is she contacting him while she is at work?

Is the OW married? And do your children know about what he is doing to you?

MelodyLane - THANK YOU! Sometimes you just need to share your insanity with this group to see an answer right in front of me. My kids knew about the affair and know what a POS this woman really is. "Exposing" this latest folly to them is a perfect opportunity for me to have 2 extremely good allies.

I have already drafted a new no contact letter. As for changing jobs, he will be keeping this one - and the travel. I'm hoping to join him on the longer trips. These weren't a problem for 26 of the 27 years and I'm pretty certain we can get back to them not being a problem again. (I don't think this is cherry picking - the majority of the affair was email and phone which could be done anywhere...)

OW is married. Poor OS and their kids. I really do feel sorry for them all. It was all exposed to her family but she really doesn't care. She's extremely selfish and gets her high from her "secret life" on the computer.

WH is home. We just had dinner. Off to UA time... I'll catch you guys tomorrow and fill you in. Thank you!

Pap, I would be certain and expose this renewed contact to the OW's husband. Are you in regular contact with him?

And please reconsider the travel problem. Traveling jobs are an invitation to an affair. That is Recovery 101. They ARE a problem due to the fact that you can't meet each others EN's when you are apart and in order to fall in love, you have to meet each others needs on a daily basis. Even short trips are very HARD on good marriages because of the detachment they cause. Dr Harley is adamant that couples never spend the night apart.

How often does he travel?

Why are YOU drafting a new NC letter? Your WH should be doing this.

Have you been snooping your WH's phone and computer? I question how the OW was able to figure out where your WH is employed. I'm wondering if he contacted HER.

A two hour conversation??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? What could they POSSIBLY talk about for TWO HOURS?? "I'm married, please don't contact me again" takes less than three seconds.

Maritalbliss - I started drafting a NC letter because I needed to figure out in my own head what I wanted to make sure it said. It's my own therapy. I have a whole file folder on my computer of letters I've written to her at various times and never sent... A journal of sorts.

Trust me, the 2 hour thing has me completely dumbfounded. Especially since I can't seem to pull out of him what they talked about. Although I know that the OW can talk and talk and talk... (Let's just say that the VAR in his car 2 years ago didn't get very much of their conversations because they were rather one sided...)

As for him contacting her with the information, I don't see that that happened. And I must admit that his response when he got her email after NC for over a year it seemed like he was rather upset it happened and that she had "found him" again. Honestly, I think with technology today if you look hard enough you can find anyone. And I do know that she went to a high school reunion this summer where she may have talked to someone who she searched out to find out what she could. Short of changing our names and going in to the witness protection program, I'm really not sure you can hide completely. We love where we live and she lives hundreds of miles away. I'm not changing things that I love in my life because she's a psychotic POSOW.

OS is fully aware of his WW's escapades. I've led him to this website and even shipped SAA and HNHN to him 2 years ago. But you have to want to do the work. We are in sporadic contact so that he can let me know when she might be headed my way or if I see something on my end. He has all but given up on the M since she insists on living in fantasyland. They have 3 young kids. She has another long distance EA going on that she found shortly after my WH stopped communicating with her. With another married man, of course...

The travel thing is a non-starter, even in my eyes. The type of job he has requires travel. He loves his job and he is miserable when he's not doing something he enjoys which destroys our relationship in many other ways. Sometimes it's just one-day trips and he leaves in the early morning and comes back late that night. Other times he is gone for up to 2 weeks. He had a trip this past March for 2 weeks and we talked, texted and emailed our thoughts every day and when he got home we were even more in love than when he left. Which is also why when I sent him a "good night" love note a couple of weeks ago and then didn't hear from him until the next afternoon the red flags had been flying in front of my face and I pulled up his work bitchberry account. I KNEW he had been talking to her.

We talk all the time about that we're so close now that we can't keep anything from each other because the other intuitively knows it... But maybe he thought he could start compartmentalizing again?... And did he use his bitchberry knowing full well that I would catch him and he wanted to be caught? He claims he was going to tell me about it, and part of me wishes I had just let him go for a few days and see if he did - or see if it would have continued. But I mentally/emotionally couldn't go there.

So, I feel like I'm starting all over again dealing with triggers, snooping and over analyzing. It sucks. And I know all too well that 2, 5 or 10 years from now this may happen again and I know I can't deal with it ever happening again. I think he really knows this time that I mean that. Although, I do wonder if I was too easy on him to get that through to him completely. Is it possible that I did Plan A for so long when the affair was going on, and even during the past year when I didn't talk about the affair when I was triggered, that I've also gotten fairly good at brushing my own other feelings aside and "acting" like nothing is wrong? Though he claims that he knows when I'm doing this. But both of us were/are afraid to say what is really on our minds if it is about the affair because we don't want to bring it up.

I'm thinking now of that analogy in one of the threads about the tree and its roots. Maybe we took down the tree, ground the stump and dug up what roots we could get to, but there are roots we missed that can sprout at will. EP's are supposed to be the poison to make sure they can't sprout. But if POSOW goes digging and finds one of the roots, she can water and fertilize it and see what happens.

Any of you out there afraid of this happening to you? How do you deal with those feelings? Even when they've changed jobs, phones, etc, do you still feel like any day the AP could just pop back up on the radar? How do you know when your WS is inoculated enough with MB principles and walking the walk well enough that they won't slip up and hurt you again?

Um, this is BS. He needs to come clean!


Couldn't agree more!


I don't think you do. We married men with bad boundaries, and will be facing this for the rest of our lives. Better to keep vigilant and keep up the MB techniques to keep that feeling of closeness ever present.

PlanAPrincess, I'm so sorry for the contact and the triggers. That really, really sucks.

My FWH knows that a 1 Second OUTGOING phone call to OW will have him out of my house no questions asked.

2 hours would have me thinking of "going bobbit" on him.

Its one thing for her to try to contact him and him calling her is another. You need to dig deeper into this.

PAP, this is the problem right here. You can't create an intimate, romantic marriage living like this. Internet communication cannot sustain a marriage. It is not the same as being together. [the divorce rate for traveling jobs is epidemic for this reason] This kind of travel makes it impossible to meet each others needs on a daily basis, which is essential to creating an affair proof, romantic marriage. This kind of travel is even hard on great marriages. Ask me, I know! Not only does it create detachment, it feeds independent lifestyles and creates opportunities for repeat affairs. Traveling jobs are an invitation to affairs. Not even Dr Harley and Joyce travel apart. I would urge you to reconsider this, for the sake of your marriage.

And have you notified the OW's husband that contact has resumed?

Being inoculated with MB principles is not protection. Real protection comes from extraordinary precautions coupled with a romantic relationship. It is not a matter of hope, but of boundaries and verification.

I contacted OW's H before I even wrote my "don't even think about coming home" email to my WH the night I pulled up WH blackberry account and saw the phone call. I wanted to let him know and also to find out if he saw any of this coming via his own espionage. He saw some bantering with her new EA "love" about my H, but nothing that would have prompted a phone call. He also filled me in on all the other crap that his POSWW has been up to.

I absolutely cannot even think about broaching "you need to change jobs again". This is a dream job that came out of the ashes at just the right time after the affair. A true gift for both of us. The job entails travel. I am going to try to go with him on longer trips whenever I can, but some of the areas he goes I will not travel due to the immunization requirements.

His lack of boundaries and independent behavior issues have subsided 99%. This was a lapse. A BIG lapse, but a lapse. In my review of the time leading up to his actions I also have re-examined that week, and the weekend prior, and see some areas where we definitely weren't being O&H with each other and didn't have quality UA time. Then there was the trip itself, his lack of sleep on that trip (I posted to sweetpea about sleep deprivation leading to reduction of willpower) and a bit of animosity that we had dealing with triggers, our anniversary (that was ruined by POSOW 2 years ago) and "their" upcoming anniversary which I am still certain was the "gut" reason for calling. We WILL talk about "why" he called. I WILL get an answer one way or another this weekend. We have 3 full days of UA, so there is no excuse not to spend a couple of hours on this topic.

I KNOW he still has feelings for her. He says he always will. But he chose me to marry and spend the last 27 years with. But that isn't good enough for me most of the time. I want every bit of his soul in love with me and I want him to NEVER think of her. But MB teaches us that unless that LB is zeroed out, that just isn't going to happen. Will he think of her less? Yes. Will he still think of her fondly? I keep trying to get him to manage those thoughts so he won't, but there is some resistance to rewriting the ancient past in his memory so that it can be what I want it to be. Should the past that happened before we were together really matter? In this case, since it was pulled up and dropped in our relationship, I believe the answer is "yes".

I went through and read again the "managing memories" thread and the "Eternal Triangle" thread. 2 of my "favorites" to go to for a shot in the arm or reassurance that I'm not alone.

Trust me. I keep wondering if I'm just an idiot to believe my WH (I removed the F, if that helps?) again and "trust" him. But at the same time I think we both learned from this experience. I learned that I absolutely cannot trust him - that he is capable of reaching out to her and hurting me. BUT he also learned that his is capable of doing this and ruining his marriage and life in the dial of a phone. That lesson is still sinking in.

In my ramblings in a journal a bit ago I just came up with an idea of making a "No Contact Contract" for him to sign for me after he sends another no contact letter to POSOW. One that states that if he ever contacts "She Who Must Not Be Named" again that he has just filed for divorce. It won't be tolerated and there will be no "get out of jail free" card or "passing go" to collect his things. Maybe it is the only way I can get him to realize that I am dead serious about this and this crap won't be tolerated.

I must say, I haven't been this angry in a really long time... I think my head knew all along that he was capable of doing this. But my heart refused to listen.

PAP:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{PAP}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I hope you can feel those hugs. Such a wretched mess.

So, your last line is: I knew all along he was capable of doing this (contact).

It reminds me of a moment in marriage counseling, when my FWH was hemming/hawing about cheating again, worried that he couldn't control himself. That he wouldn't "fix" his problems well enough to stop himself.

Our therapist said: You can stop it. You CHOOSE not to cheat. There is "no reason" for cheating, other than you choosing to be selfish.

It was like a cold bucket of water in his face.

He realized if he doesn't want to cheat again, he ... just ... won't. There are no secret demons forcing his behavior. Just his free will. And he can control it.

So, in terms of your WH's contact. He probably thinks he was compelled to call her. Not true. He ... made ... the ... choice.

He needs to realize that nothing forced his hand ... except his own selfish stupidity.

Think that might sink in with him?

Hope that helps ...

Hugs right back at you sweetpea!!

Ah, the selfish behavior... The "He...Made...The...Choice" to make this call. Yes, I think you've definitely nailed it here. I will try to splash some cold water on his face this weekend. We have UA time planned for tonight, but I want to focus on some other aspects then and save this for a time where we can have good vibes before and after (this weekend).

The saddest part to me is that I felt like we had already gotten there - that he understood and we were on the road to full recovery. But all it took was a bit of disruption in the love vibes (all around triggery dates/times/events) and less UA time and *bam* you're knocked back a year or more. Is it really that fragile? I think that is what scares me the most.

What other aspects are more important, if you don't mind me asking?

This issue would be killing me, if i were in your shoes.

And, right, don't let him wiggle his way out of understanding he can control this. He just has to DO IT.

planAprincess,

you had mentioned a thread you read called Eternal Triange where is that thread?
would like to read it myself......

It's not that there is something more important than facing this elephant in the room face on, it's that we have some other things that we really need to work on between us. We hashed this one out extensively 2 weekends ago, but it's still not settled in my mind, nor should it be. We need some quiet and relaxing UA time right now - not time when we're both going have to work hard to not DJ or would risk going to bed angry with one another.

I have been very depressed again since this happened. I started taking my AD's again, but it takes awhile for them to kick in and I also refuse to feel like I need them to "get over" this. And I NEED his support and love - and sometimes when I'm depressed he doesn't understand how to love and support me. We've talked about it, but for some reason he always falls back to withdrawing from me like he did for years. Like we both did. These are old habits - ones that we've been working hard on breaking for the past 2 years, but raise their heads when there are complications in our relationship.

We are a textbook MB couple in that we had some serious holes in our 25 year marriage that we didn't even know were there and were causing serious problems. We didn't know what our own needs were, let alone what the needs were of our spouse. We are both conflict avoiders. Sometimes when both of our takers would come out in force we would go into withdrawal for months at a time. I think we thought this was normal. I mean, who did I know who had what I thought was a great marriage? No one! I assumed they just didn't exist... (until I found MB!!)

It was reading SAA that was like a 2x4 beside my head to make me realize I wasn't meeting what I (correctly!) perceived as his top 3-4 EN's. I worked on those and also started looking harder at our relationship. The comment somewhere in the books/website about having to go back through conflict to get to intimacy after withdrawal was a lightbulb for me. Did we skip that? A lot? Yes. We brushed things under the rug after things blew over (and we couldn't remember what we were fighting about) and got back to intimacy. BUT when you don't deal with what sent you into conflict/withdrawl for all of those years your intimacy is so much less than what it should be... One might even argue that it's not even intimacy anymore and that you don't know what that is.

So - I want to devote tonight to eating healthy, getting some RC in by taking a walk with the dogs and cuddling and watching a movie or reading together. I don't want to talk about this particular issue. We might talk about it anyhow, but I think it's much more than a 2 hour conversation and if we start down that road and end up not sleeping well because of the discussion and then trying to deal with it while he's at work tomorrow, it becomes a bigger issue. Better to play good little planAprincess and practice plan A through Thursday night and wait until we have 3 days in a row to really hash this out without disruption.

Yes, it's eating at me. But that is why I started the thread - to keep me on course to deal with this properly. In a timely manner, but not by LBing and DJing. I need to be firm with this - not emotional. I've decided I am allowed to be angry - really angry. But I'm not allowed to be needy about it. Emotional=Needy in his book. And needy gets nowhere with him. Which as I write it now makes a lot of sense with his reactions to my depression... Hmmmm... I think we might have a topic of conversation for our walk tonight!!

Wow, PAP, you have much more control than I do. I really admire that and need to work on a more thoughtful approach sometimes.

I can't stand to let an issue lie unattended. Eats away at me.

Good for you, though, to recognize what your relationship needs and know that you have a calm approach to getting to the bottom of it.

So sorry to hear about the ADs, but I am ALL for doing what you need to do to get equilibrium and clawing your way out of that pit of despair we all know too well.

FYI: on this "emotional needy" business. That's BS again. He lied, he broke no contact and he won't discuss the details. What part of O&H is that?

I'm not sure how to advise you on the anger part. I know we BSs aren't supposed to love bust, but c'mon! This does seem like a major/felony infraction.

And it's really taken a toll on you!

I'd say your WH need to up his game, significantly if he wants to keep PlanAPrincess in his life.

The content of the call isn't as important to me as the length of the call - it shouldn't have lasted longer than this:

"Hiiii, it's meeee, POSOW - have you missed me???"

"Please don't contact me again." click.

That'd be about 3, maybe 4 seconds. My point being your WH still has a significant problem with boundaries, and that should be very worrisome to you. There's no way a man with firm boundaries would have allowed his former AP a two-hour phone call.

ITA. This is why it is imperative that your WH have the necessary precautions in place to eliminate as much possibility of contact as possible. A no contact letter should have been sent (was it?) from your H to her. Phone numbers/emails changed. Her contact info blocked. Once that's done, your WH needs to have a back-up plan in place in the event of a breech in the precautions (such as what happened.) He appears to have had no plan and was caught flat-footed when she called. As an EP, he should have been ready to immediately hang up on her or anyone calling on her behalf. And then he should immediately have called you.

My plan with my H was this: if OW called him, he was to say he was in a meeting and needed to call her back from a private place in a few minutes. He was to get her number and give it to me. Then I was going to call her back.

Not if your EPs erects a fence around the roots that will keep her out.

MB, he called her. She emailed him and he called her and talked for 2 hours.

Speaking strictly from a former wayward perspective....

Any two hour phone call, was a major drug fix! Then lying about what was said..... (witholding truth is lying)

The affair has re-ignited and he's just waiting for the right time to fly under the radar again.....

NC letter?? IMO, Pretty useless! You are looking pretty foolish here.... Your Husband, nor the OW have any respect for the idea of NC, nor any respect for you??

Did you ever have a polygraph done to verify he hasn't cheated on you before, that this wasn't a PA and that his oversea trips haven't led to any one night stands???

I think you're playing with fire, and you're dismissing your own intuition that maybe your H is a bigger con and liar than you want to believe he is.

pAp, your husband is in quite a bit of fog if he can look you in the eye & tell you, as you've said, that he'll "always" have feelings for her.

That tells me he's not working hard enough. And that perhaps he doesn't see his emotional infidelity for what it was. He still thinks it wasn't that bad.

Otherwise he'd be too embarrassed for himself (even if not fully/appropriately sensitized to your pain) to say something like that to your face.

He needs to do some work at reassociating his recollections of her. He needs to get his empathy gene re-wired into his DNA. Empathy for you.

For him to continue not to invest the effort this requires, so that he can emotionally hedge his bets by holding onto "fond" memories of her, will be a huge stumbling block to the kind of marriage you want. (And you're seeing evidence of that, in his lukewarm attitude toward his EPs.)

Gotta get to work, but I'd like to come back to this theme later -- maybe others can chime in in the interim.

jessitaylor -

Here is the thread "Eternal Triangle?" It is one I keep going back to whenever I need to know that I'm not alone:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2473943#Post2473943

I need to gather my thoughts from the past 12 hours before I can post too much, though I need to purge my brain of some of the thoughts so I'll at least start...

I brought this all up on the walk last night with WH (even though I said I wouldn't - it was eating me too much, just like sweetpea said...) Then I couldn't get to sleep last night, then when I finally did I woke up a couple of hours later. I went to get out of bed after lying awake for hours and he stopped me to ask me why I wasn't sleeping and I told him. Honestly. EXACTLY what was on my mind.

Let's just say that now coming to my computer after he's left for work and reading HerPapaBear's reply (which says exactly what is on my mind - so thank you HPB for responding...), I am a fool. And he, nor OW, has any respect for NC, me and certainly my feelings.

So does that make the last 18 months as big of a sham as the 6 months that I spent in Plan A working on my marriage while the affair was still going on? Yes, I'm calling that a sham now - as the tears fall down my face. It nauseated me to have SF with him for a couple of months when I knew full well that the affair was going on, but I did it to satisfy his needs and play nice plan A. I felt that part of plan A was a sham. That I was doing what I needed to do to fix my marriage and gain him back. What I displayed outwardly for those 6 months was NOT what I was internally.

What the @#$*7 has he done for me? The ONE THING I've asked for - demanded of him - the only thing in 27 years of marriage is to be rid of her forever.

We talked Plan B this morning. He said he'd move out if I wanted him to. I don't want him to move out. But I do want him to. But I don't. I "just" want assurances that the POSOW won't ever be on the radar again. But as I re-read the initial posting in the link above I realize that I'm fooling myself to think that that will ever happen.

I asked him flat out what he'd do if she showed up on our doorstop tomorrow, 2 years from now, 10 years from now... He said he would help her. I said "wrong answer". I got the "but she's an old friend" crap again. He does still have feelings for her and I can't change that. I know that. And based on most of what he said this morning, he "gets" completely that what he did was wrong. And he wants to be with me and wants to go back to what we had before he MADE THE CHOICE to call her.

To answer some other questions from before - Yes, we did a NC letter - 18 months ago. He switched jobs 13 months ago and those first 12 months when she hadn't searched him out were amazing. Triggers, and normal recovery bumps, yes - but the best year of marriage we've ever had. The best marriage anyone could ask for. Except...

He hasn't internalized NC. It's just words on a page. He's compartmentalizing this again. Or he thinks he can.

I need to get outside today a lot and go through my thoughts. Maybe digging up the dahlia bulbs, tilling under the garden and sowing a cover crop will help me figure out what I need to do. For me.

Pap,

Two years ago this week, my H contacted his OW via phone and email. He was away from home for a few days, spending time with his mother after a minor stroke. He lied about the extent of contact for the next three months. It was extremely harmful to our recovery. The horror of those months is detailed on our recovery thread, recovery - take two.

Here is what I see in your situation. You have a false recovery and have not followed the plan for recovery after an affair. How does Dr. Harley describe those steps?

1. The first step to recovery is WSes commitment to NC FOR LIFE. In your case, not accomplished.

2. Change in the environment to prevent a rekindling of the affair or another affair with a different person. In your case, not accomplished. Your husband still travels and has all kinds of opportunities to contact OW (2 hour phone call from his hotel) as well as start another affair with someone else.

3. Build a romantic relationship between the two of you. In your case, not accomplished. It is not possible to meet the UA time when one spouse is gone for days or weeks at a time.

Exactly what is so dreamy about the dream job? Is it the money? If so, are you both willing to risk your marriage for money?

I hesitated to comment on this thread because it seems to me when people are so adament about taking shortcuts in the MB program, there is a poor outcome.

AM

We're nearly a year from D-Day and had the usual roller coaster recovery. It's getting better. There were a couple of "minor" lapses in FWH's EPs. He used a term of endearment a couple of months ago with a coworker that threw me into the down cycle of the roller coaster. I was looking at plane tickets out of here; the effect on me was that bad. I was concerned that his loose boundaries with women were such a bad habit that he couldn't possibly follow through for the rest of our lives. So we tightened up the EPs. I had wondered at the time, too, at what point does the BS say "enough trying."

Personally, if my H were to follow through with contact with his OW, I don't believe I could tolerate that. I would probably go into an immediate Plan B and let him do his darnedest to win me back...from a long distance. It was just too traumatic to go through one D-Day.

When I asked my H if he harbored any fond thoughts of his OW, he emphatically replied that he wished he'd never met her. Her first marriage ended with her H's infidelity, the 2nd with her H's alcoholism. He said that after seeing the pain inflicted by infidelity, he didn't see what there was to admire and love about a woman who would turn around and do that to someone else.

But nevertheless, we keep a tight rein on the EPs, because infidelity is an addiction, and I don't trust that the old feelings of thrills wouldn't return to my H if NC was broken by either. I just know I would not choose to live through it again. I want my man all the way in or not at all.

Hi there,

Take some time to think about this, I think a better plan has to be put into place for your marriage to feel safe..........
The hanging on to feelings for the OW is not helping him reconnect with you, he has to learn to let go of that fantasy if he wants to have a great marriage, you feel it, it makes you feel badly........
Your plan A and engaging in a sex life with him is okay, you are doing what you need to do to save the marriage you want......
Do you think you could get him to discuss those feelings with Dr. Harley, let someone else help you to get your husband to realize the damage of his attitude is hurting your marriage.....
The OW can't be in your husband's life at all, if he can't do that maybe he needs to feel like what his life would be if he lost what he is used to.......maybe some just compensations need to be put in place for you and to let him understand he needs to make amends for his actions and thoughts.......
Just keep plugging away trying to fill the holes of your relationship eventually he should see that the OW isn't what he thinks she is and that she has no value in his life.......
The more he falls in love with you the less he will think of her........
I know how that feels I hate the fact that my husband thought his OW was a good person, he doesn't feel that way now, he sees her as someone who lied and slept with someone else's husband.......even though that is what he did......it is painful for him to admit it was him that could do that awful thing , they have to understand that they are that person that hurts others for their own selfishness.......your husband will see it for what it was eventually as well.
Justification and entitlement and fantasy clouds their minds for a while to the point of stupidity ...........
He is with you, if he really wanted to be with her he would be.......
you are the reason don't forget that

PAP:

I'm so sorry that your FWH still doesn't get it.

POSOW is not an "old friend." She is a former affair partner INTENT on ruining your marriage.

Ask FWH to see her as YOU see her: an invader, armed to teeth, ready to destroy.

And you wrote that she is a miserable person. Why does he have any empathy for her?

Tell him to put on his big boy pants and scrape this barnacle off the hull of your marriage. There is NO PLACE for her.

And if he doesn't think he's man enough to push her away, tell him this: Lying and cheating means you likely will lose people in your life. My FWH and I no longer see his brother and sister-in-law (people we adored) because of affairs my FWH and brother conducted on a golf trip together. FWH and his brother ruined this part of our family life, likely forever.

So, an "old" friend? Who is a horrible person and threat to my marriage. Never!

Get him to Dr. Harvey. Pronto!

Oh, dear.

In my opinion, you should have called his bluff because that's what it was--an attempt to make you back down or feel guilty.


Try that question with him again, but this time your response should be for him to leave.


I'm not buying it. Well, yes I am. He wants to do whatever the hell he wants without regard for the effects his actions have on others. No consequences seems to be the motto here and this will not go away if he's giving these halfway answers about having feelings for OW.

I'd tell him to knock it off and cut the crap. He knew damn well what he was doing when he spoke to her for two hours. Give me a break! That's the kind of crud you'd hear from a lying toddler or teenager, not a grown man. He's either in or he's out and, until he mans up and decides, he can just leave the house and file for a divorce. Fortunately for you, your children are older and can be valuable allies here.

I'd seriously call him on the carpet here and DEMAND that he make a decision (this instant) about what he's going to do. Really, you've got to be fed up with this crap by now?

It just doesn't sound like he hit rock-bottom hard enough the first time. A second round (Plan B) seems to be in order if he waffles on deciding, and I suspect he'll get with the program fairly quickly once he realizes that he's about to lose everything.

Oh- and I'd make it a condition that he no longer have a cell phone at all. We all did just fine for many centuries without them and he can, too.

GloveOil you are spot on - as usual. You've hit our particular issue square on and your entire post resonates with me. You nailed it. I unfortunately didn't read it until now, but know that I appreciate the insight.

I think it's so easy for some of you to "judge" me and my relationship and my approaches - and I've learned a lot and swallowed some humble pie here just to post. Do I believe in MB principles - yes. Do I think there is a tiny bit of wiggle room in some of them - yes. I think all situations are different, especially when it comes to some of the needs that are outside of the relationship.

Is it independent behavior just to want to do for a living what you've always dreamed of? Is it an LB if by doing this he is getting my EN of FS well taken care of and I have something to be very proud of him for - meeting his admiration need? Have you, or are you, living with someone who is miserable because of where he works or what he does? I can tell you that what we receive in our relationship based on his being happy with his employment is a tremendous gift. One I will not lose on a whim to take what is an outstanding relationship and try to make it exemplary. We've lived the hell of him not being happy in his job and it isn't pretty.

Also, something that I have come to realize today as I took in some fresh air is that I believe he was totally and completely honest with me about all of his emotional feelings this morning for the first time in 27 years. After doing all of our MB homework over this past year, we know that one of the absolutely ingrained habits we both have is being dishonest. He is hands down a protective and and avoid-trouble liar. It was the dishonesty inventory that was the most difficult for both of us to swallow and discuss. I had been waiting for the moment for there to be something to be RH about - especially dealing with his emotions - and make it count. He actually passed that test with me this morning by admitting to me that he still has feelings for her and that he would help her if she showed up - it was the way he said it and the way we talked about it. He was completely an open book to me at that point in time and I don't remember ever feeling that before.

So - is our relationship perfect? No, far from it. Does he know now, in no uncertain terms that he only has one life left in this marriage game and once he loses it he's "game over"? ABSOLUTELY. (We have about 20 emails and a 60 min phone conversation at lunch from today that state that). Am I going to punish him for telling me the truth? That is the bigger question with me right now. We have worked long and hard through all of the worksheets, workbooks, etc and there is still so much to learn.

Did he mess up big time? Yes. He has some serious work left to do. In my book #1 is being radically honest with himself so he can be radically honest with me. #2 is truly understanding that he must reprogram his memory bank if he wants to be the best spouse he can be. So - the ball is in his court.

I'm tired of being upset about this. He can prove to me that he is worthy of me - and win me back totally and completely. It is his turn to Plan A me and work on his own head.

PaP,

I disagree with your assertion that MB is an "a la carte program". Many attempt short cuts, apply wiggle room to their and their's alone "unique" situation. I have been reading here since April 2008 and deviating from the MB principles nearly always has a negative outcome.

When it is pointed out, some people think it is a "judgement" against them because they want to do whatever they want to do. These same people eventually wonder why MB does not work in recovering their marriage.

A false recovery is so much worse than initial discovery. Sorry to have wasted yours and my time with my experience.

AM

Was the last 18 months a sham??

I think the above quote pretty well sums it all up!

He's not willing to protect you and the marriage!
He's full of crap and is still working hard to gaslight you...


One word!









Polygraph!

The biggest alarm here is that he has not really given you anything approaching a sane response to why he talked to her for two hours.

I think he's given you his answer about his commitment to the marriage.

I can understand why that answer would be impossibly difficult to hear.

Bottom line - he has stepped all over you and the consequences are....crickets.

Yes, and the problem here pAp, is not that folks here are judging you, but rather that your WH's actions have red flags dancing in unison. And, people here see it with 20/20 vision.

-He's still fogged with "knight in shining armour" thought-process.
-He still does not see OW as a preditor (rather, the opposite).
-He still wants to protect her (and himself) more than he does you (a tough one to swallow, but it's the reality).

Yes, RH is great and required, but what's more important right NOW are the steps HE suggests and is willing to take to prevent contact again so as to make you feel safe.

As Kerala said, what on earth did they talk about for 2 hours??
Ahhh, but we know. The dreaded "closure talk". You know what that is, actually? Queue up Whitney's "I Will Always Love You". That's what it is. And, what that says to OW is "I will keep you in my mind and heart, cuz as soon as my BW slips up , I know I have you to run to". And, now OW knows that, too.

How very romantic.

Do you really think that 2 hour call was much different that what I've described?

It's not judgment, but caution and warning...

PAP, I have been here for 10 years now, have a fully recovered marriage, have gone through the MB program, read every book and listened to hundreds of hours of the radio show. I have seen so many successes and so many failures in my time on this board. But one thing is for sure about these principles: there is no wiggle room. Situations are different, yes, but what it takes to recover a marriage IS NOT. No wiggle room. A very specific path.

My H and I have experienced what happens with a traveling job, and the emotional detachment was immediately obvious. And immediately detrimental to our marriage. And this is in a fully recovered marriage. This is why the divorce rate in these kinds of marriages is epidemic. With traveling jobs comes an emotional detachment that makes your H vulnerable to an affair. Harley calls them an "invitation to an affair." I don't know how you can affair proof your marriage and restore the romantic love in your marriage with him traveling. I simply don't. And neither does Dr Harley.

So, if you have found some wiggle room I would like to know about it. [so would the US Military who is working with Dr Harley on this very issue] But the first thing I would be asking is: how is your marriage? Has wiggling worked for you? It's one thing to say you have found a better way, but that always begs the question: has it worked for you?

Many of the people posting on your thread are in fully recovered marriages, Pap. We have been through Harley's course and we know the difference between a false recovery and the real thing. We don't tell you this to be judgmental, but because we CARE.

here

Pap, but that is a false dichotomy. There are jobs where he could be just as happy where he doesn't have to travel. And it could be a job that facilitates the romantic love in your marriage. A traveling job doesn't do that. He could find a job he loves, that pays well that would complement his marriage instead of harming it. Meeting your need of FS will not create romantic love because it is not an intimate emotional need. If his "dream" is a traveling job that makes it impossible to fall in love, then that job could be your worst nightmare.

I know you don't want to consider alternatives, but I am very concerned that you are headed to a bad place because he travels.

I hope I am explaining the reason clearly enough. In recovery from an affair, it is critical to restore the marriage to a better place than it was before by creating romantic love. In order to do that, you must be meeting intimate emotional needs on a daily basis. You can't do that if you are sleeping apart and not together every day. Traveling jobs create a sense of detachment and a feeling of independence from each other. That is why they are called "invitations to affairs." Not only does one feel detached but when they feel that way, there is ample opportunity to act upon it.

No amount of FS or admiration will make up for that, because don't fall in love over those EN's.

You are all correct in your positions. We are in discussion about the travel card. (He just canceled his next trip...) I still think a day or 2 here and there is ok because it isn't much different than the hours he works sometimes. Just him working, or talking on the phone while he is at work could be considered a trigger for me (it was this morning when his line was busy when I called...) His EA took place at work - long distance EA - and like GloveOil, he came home most nights and thought he could cake eat like that forever. The long trips do need to stop - or I need to go with him.

ArmyMama - You didn't waste your time. I appreciate your input. I appreciate what you all are saying and that you are trying to help me. I really do. And I've seen lots of others on these forums who are severely cherry picking and not doing their homework and it's frustrating to me as well. Melody - I've watched you help so many... the list goes on... (Melody - "Misplaced compassion gives power to evil..." wow... might have to put that one on the fridge...)

He is back in a fog. I guess I only thought that the last year was pretty damn perfect between us. Actually, it was pretty perfect, until...

I can fully see that when I look back and analyze what we did between the time that she reached out with that email and the time he ended up making the phone call that I was WRONG in approaching the email with "ignore". I was saying ignore the email. Ignore her. BUT what we failed to ignore that it was a hit of crack for him and he didn't have a plan in place that allowed him to immediately shut down the feelings that came from that hit. Delete the email and move on - but the brain liked the attention... It got his mind to places where it shouldn't have been. The weekend before he left on the trip when he made "the call" we had some "bad" UA time with me triggering and angry because I felt his distance. So - then he goes on the trip and is away, sleep deprived and he thinks about that email... BAM.

So - I guess I answered my own question from before. Is this all THAT fragile? The answer is "yes". It is all that fragile. That some LB's - right or wrong - followed by some withdrawal time can and will undo months and months of hard work.

What I learned from this is pretty powerful, but stinks. Yes, even if you feel like you are 95% recovered (June 2010 to Sept 2011 was the best our marriage has ever been), you can go back to 0% with one slip of the program.

I have another question for you guys -

First, I have read over and over the managing memories thread many times. I'm heading there to run through it again and cut and paste/print some things for us to work on this weekend. (This really is a full time job, isn't it???)

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2243454&page=10

I have to find a way to make sure I can really work this with WH and get him on board to go from caring to not caring - or rather not caring for her because he needs to care for me. Or short circuiting his brain. I know this is something so many of us have dealt with, but I do also believe that there will always be some sort of LB$ in his account because she was his relationship through high school and the first part of college - until she broke off their engagement. I do know, since I was his friend in college at that time - (and no, not an EA friend - well at THAT particular time...) that she hurt him badly back then. But during their EA I think in addition to rewriting our history to be "bad" he also rewrote some of their history back then to be more wonderful.

So... Can you point me to a thread or answer for me how people deal with an exwife or exhusband who reappears after many years and starts reminiscing and, well, since they have a history they are off and running in an EA within minutes?... I know in this case it's a bit different (they didn't get married), but I'm looking for some of the psychology of dealing with a long ago long term relationship that comes with all the baggage from the past. Some of which they have pulled out, washed and put away very neatly and pretty in their W minds.

I know that THAT is what he doesn't want to give up. He feels like giving that up is erasing those years from his life. Years that I wasn't in the picture at all and he was devoted to her. I say "tough luck - you made that bed", but how do I help him do this?

I'm not sure this is something you can really do for him because he has to change himself. He has to have a nice incentive to change. Make sense?

I know I couldn't educate my FWW at the time, and I haven't seen any others that can get through the fog UNTIL that wayward hits bottom and realizes that they have to do something to avoid something bad happening--loss of family, etc.


I favor a hardline approach with it, but think your "tough luck" stance is appropriate.

He's a grown man and I wouldn't cater to him like I would a child. He has to make a choice and I think the only thing you *can* do is show him what the consequences will be from your end when you get fed up with his back-and-forth stance.

This doesn't have to be your "normal".

Are you at a point where you're ok with not being married at all costs? That's not saying you're glad to divorce, but that you know that you did all that you could and refuse to live under those conditions. When you can honestly relay that fact to him, and are willing to follow-up with it, then I suspect you'll see a big change with him.

I am in the process of writing the "No Contact Contract" to go in our lockbox along with our marriage certificate. It will state that if he contacts "She Who Must Not Be Named" in any shape or form from this point on, it is the same as filing for divorce. We talked at length about this yesterday and I got the "I get it, I do", but I want his signature on it and not just his word.

I also want something where he is promising something to me. The NC letter was to POSOW to let her know his intentions. Does it mention me as the beneficary? Yes. But - I want the promise to be to me for him to keep NC. I want him to write a NC letter, but from the point of view of him promising to ME to have NC with POSOW for life. And maybe we kinda-sorta did that in the workbook stuff, but I want something VERY SPECIFIC here. In writing. Maybe even signed in blood.

pAp,

One of the things I learned during our false recovery was that I could not change my H. I could not make him do anything - stop contact with OW, think negatively about OW or stop lying. Only he could do those things. In Nov 2009, I laid it out to my H, that if he was not all-in our marriage, he would be all-out. I wrote a plan B type letter with a list of conditions for him if he wanted to stay with me. Otherwise, I would never see or speak to him again. I let him chew on that for a little while. He decided he wanted the marriage.

A couple of months later, he was still dragging along. I said I did not want to be pushing/pulling him into recovery. He had to take the lead. He scheduled and we attended an MB weekend in Jan 2010. He has not lied to me about any topic since Feb 2010 (he really likes being transparent now. He says it is less stressful and more freeing). My H changed. He lost the fog. He hates what he did. He hates that he ever had feelings for OW and he is happy those feelings are gone. He no longer has any desire to contact her. He often takes the lead with the MB materials. We carefully schedule and track our UA time, with special emphasis on the four intimate emotional needs. Alot of damage was done with the break in NC and we are still recovering.

Yesterday, at my request, my H read this thread. He does not post here, but his comments to me were: your H was wrong and should say he was wrong and apologise. My H then said you should lay out some requirements as I did and be prepared to end the marriage if your H does not want to meet them.

Your H has not demonstrated care for you and his thinking/actions are very hurtful to you. He has been extremely selfish.

It is time for your H to step up and take the lead with recovery. He is the one who has to do it. You can't make him and you can't drag him into the marriage.


AM

Exactly.

All the NC letters and promises in the world aren't worth a damn if he doesn't intend to abide by them.

There's a difference between them being on board and really being on board.

Do what you like, but I'd almost tell him to leave until he can commit 100% without the slightest reservation or hesitation. Require him to PROVE to YOU why YOU should let HIM stay. If he asks what he's supposed to do, show him your list of EP's (and etc.) and tell him to figure out for himself how he's going to convince you that he's serious.

Let him do the work for once. Instead, he makes a 2-hr phone call to his girlfriend and appears to be under the assumption that nothing will ever come of it other than a few days of you being irritated.

AM - Thank you for your post. I mentioned to WH last night that I was jealous that so many of the WS's on the board were taking the lead in R. That they were the ones reading SAA while their spouse was snuggled in with them. I commented that I wanted him to read SAA himself again and not be led by me reading to him or handing him a couple of pages to read.

For 2 years I was the one reading, internalizing, putting it in front of him, discussing. And we have come such a long way in so many areas... but he never really internalized the section about NC. He thinks his situation is "special". We know that is crap.

I've just added a signature space to my contract for WH to sign. Including a space for 2 witnesses. Our kids.

I have an opportunity to go away this weekend for a funeral. I had originally said I wouldn't go unless WH was going with me, but I am wondering if leaving him alone this weekend, with a letter from me and SAA, and letting him chew on it all would be worthwhile.

It does feel VERY odd to take a weekend we had planned for major UA and turn it to Plan B-ish. But maybe I have been working too hard at this. It is in his court. I do want/need him to take the lead.

pAp, now would be about the WORST time to be apart. You need to be TOGETHER NOW.

Thanks ML - Have you been talking to my WH? He just said the same thing on the phone. He wants to be with me all weekend NO MATTER WHAT we do. And his comment was that even if I wanted to go alone, he absolutely wouldn't let me.

Since we'll be in the car a lot, if we go, I need to load the MP3 player... Anyone have some "greatest hits" from the MB radio archives that you'd suggest???

I say this sincerely, but I think all of his shows are so good that you can't really go wrong. I find him so interesting because he takes such a logical approach to such an emotional arena.

I love this. Brilliant addition.

I'm going to ditto that. Grab a random sampling of Marriage Builders radio shows, and you'll have a great cross section of marital issues, and many of them will contain relevant information for you (even if you assume at first that they might not).

When my H and I went away for the weekend recently, I took CDs from the MB at home program. Just another idea if you have a hard time loading the radio programs.

pAp, I dunno whether this will be of any use to you & your H, but FWIW:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2474537&page=4

Thank you all so much for your guidance and support. I didn't even make an account on MB until after I had been a lurker for months, but partially because I kept coming here and finding questions that I felt could have been written by me, and situations that resonated with exactly where I was - and it was such a gift to read all these stories as I worked through my own issues. So - this a Thank You from all those lurkers who are out there... You have all (and some that are long gone! Is Mark, the memories guru still around?) have played such an important role in my life for the last 2 years...

GloveOil - You just sent out the link to page 4 of the "Eternal Triangle" link that I had posted as being something I was reading. A lot. Your response in that thread actually was printed off and set at the desk for my WH to read for kick off of our UA time last night - about 2 hours before you posted!

We have spent the last 6 hours in UA - including some RC time at a yummy new Thai Restaurant and we're talking and talking and... He has said a few things last night and this morning that make me feel like he finally gets it. He still has a lot of work to do (and admits that - which is key!), but we've had some serious O&H discussions about this last painful encounter and the nuclear fallout since then. About how he gets he needs to re-associate memories - and also that we wouldn't still be married, let alone this much in love if it wasn't for me finding this website in November 2009. I went immediately in Plan A and ordering and devouring SAA. It's taken a long time, and there have been a ton of tears, but it's all so worth it.

Just dropping by the computer to plunk down my year subscription to the radio archives so I can load the MP3 player for the weekend. I won't be around until Monday, but I'll check in then.

My only worry right now is - can I believe him... Only time will tell. And it is he who must prove himself worthy.

Pap: This is great! Keep us posted, OK?

Just a quick update, as promised...

It was a very, very good weekend for our marriage. We downloaded a bunch of the radio shows and listened to them in the car. It took us an hour to get through the first 10 minute segment because something would make us stop and talk about what was just said. This was the first time we've listened to these together and it is a VERY good thing to do if any of you don't already use these to jump start discussions.

Some things that I've learned from this, for anyone who may find this thread after a WS has broken contact after an extended time in recovery,OR for a WS that is even considering just a little "how are you doing?" email or phone call to the OP...

First - I notice that it is taking me awhile to really "feel" the love again for my WS. He is trying very hard and I think REALLY gets what he did wrong and knows that it absolutely can never happen again, but I cannot stress enough just how much this took out of the LB$. I had felt almost fully recovered and was so deeply in love with him before he made that phone call... It is going to take a long time to recover that. I think if we hadn't recovered as much as we had already, this may have wiped it out completely. I'd be in Plan B.

Second - For those who have been dealing with EA's - especially with all this reconnecting on FB, Classmates, etc - it is much more of a problem than it may seem on the surface. I think EXTRA diligence needs to be made for everyone to realize just how dangerous connecting with "old friends" can be. Even if you didn't have a romantic relationship with someone in your past, I think there is the "I remember you when" path that can lead to many places that a happily married person would want to stay clear of.

Third - Come here if you need help. It can be tough love, but if you are distraught there are some awesome people on here that can help you through it. I wish I had the time to devote to "being here" for others more often. During the times things are going well I log in once in awhile, but not much. When something is bothering me I spend hours, even days, pouring through and developing a plan for my own life/relationship. We are so blessed to have this community to come to.

I think you got your answer last week.

I'm so sorry I couldn't do more on my side to stop this.

Hi NoGoodDeed, welcome to Marriage Builders. Are you the OW's husband? What has happened? Has the affair resumed?

Would you mind starting a thread and telling us what happened? I am sorry for your dilemma.

Thanks, Melody. I'll get around to starting my own thread(s) shortly, just can't face it right now.

For planAprincess, I am the OW's betrayed husband. WE thought we had the situation under control until last year's NC Break, and then it was fine (for pAp) until my WW contacted her WH again this summer. A flurry of texts, emails, and calls, all in violation of the NC and undetected by both pAp and I, and now we have a full blown PA between her husband and my wife.

Sorry to hear it. Have you folks ever done a nuclear exposure? That is probably your best hope if anything can break it up.

It may be too late, though.

pAp is in the process of doing one on her side, I have begun one on mine. I've also asked for legal representation (it's a family business, I just happen to be the non-lawyer black sheep.)

A brief summary has just been posted to Surviving an Affair. Haven't been able to post my 'back story' yet, as this seems to be a more pressing matter. Otherwise, I woulnd't be up at 2AM after a week without any real sleep.

PlanAprincess allowed her H to have another night away for a "business trip". We did warn her about those.

They might have managed to meet in a hotel for sex regardless, but overnight travel is an easy way for sexual encounters to happen.

I hope, if these two couples are serious about recovery, that they will put an end to the trips. Steve Harley should be advising princess and her H to do exactly that, right now. I also found that the workplace contact was impossible to stop until my H gave up work altogether and took early retirement. That is likely to be the case for these BSs, also. They've seen how strong the attraction is between their spouses and they should not be prepared to attempt recovery without heroic measures, which go far beyond NC letters.

pAp, please come back here and post. I am sorry to hear about your latest D Day. I am sure you must be feeling worse now than when you discovered the affair before. I've been through repeated D Days with the details after the second one being much worse than after the first, so I know how they bring you to the brink of a breakdown.

It seems from what OWH posted on his thread that you have been meeting meeting them as a couple - in other words, allowing the affair partners to meet.

This is so far against MB advice that I am horrified. It also seems that you did not take our adice to stop his overnight travel.

If I am right and you have not been following the advice you were given here, I am fearful for your marriage. Please post here again, and follow our advice this time.

As far as you know, did their marriage start out as an affair?

The meetings were stupid. I didn't even realize we were venturing into EA territory when they happened...those were all in 2009, with the last one on NYE 2009/2010.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have tried to discourage my WW's contact with pAp's husband initially, let alone allow them to meet.

As for your last question, and I know I'm going to get crucified, but yes, I was 18 when I met WW and while I should have known better, I didn't.

Sugarcane -

Since you asked so nicely, I will post. Honestly I did not want to even come to the boards because I didn't want "Told you so" thrown in my face, but I guess that happened whether I was here and posted or not.

I'm glad POSOW's H is posting now. Maybe he will finally take a lead in getting his life back. I did not come here because I didn't want to be beat up again for something that I can't control. I cannot control POSOW. I cannot control my WH's (He's MORE than earned that W again) response when the persistent little POSOW finds a way to sneak through the EP's and give my H her little sob story of how horrible her life is without him...

So, this time is different. Very different. I don't know fully 100% if I want to stay in the marriage, but I do know that other than this stupid affair we do have a wonderful marriage. So, here I am with damned if I do and damned if I don't. He says he doesn't know "why" he did it. He's gaslighting. Big time. However, this time I threw in the towel and told him that the ball is in his court. Completely. Time for him to step up and work towards recovery. I am not in Plan A anymore. Steve Harley told me to sit back and relax - and heal. He will guide my WH to help me heal since we need to do that before we have any chance of working on the M.

Travel. Yes. I "let" him travel. However, I did not "let" him do this to me. He did it. Not my fault. Travel isn't the biggest issue here. She's so persistent that I'm certain that if it didn't happen this way, she would have driven up here and jumped him in the parking lot where he works. She has shut out her H completely from her life. All secret passwords and email accounts. Locked phone. Her own locked computer. He's got a much tougher road than I. I do have full access to WH's computer, and all of his passwords, however I do not have access to his phone at work and can't camp out in his office every day.

We started counseling with Steve last Friday. A great session and I will tell you that I felt true peace for the first time in 3 years after listening to him and taking his advice. We have our next session on Wednesday.

As for some of the other things coming up that are confusing the issue - we met with POSOW and her H in 2009, but not at all since DDay. I was clueless as to the details of OW and my WH's relationship at that point - just not feeling good about what I felt was there. It was our first DDay shortly after that meeting since I was able to then know who the OW's H was and ask him for evidence.

As for us right now... WH and I had a good weekend so far. We are talking. Tons of UA time. I was ready to go directly into Plan B, but Steve told me that if I can stomach being around WH that I have a better chance of saving this being here. So here I am. Trying not to AO or DJ, but a few have certainly slipped. This time though, I did have Steve's blessing and obviously he coached my WH that I need to have these and he's not to react negatively to them. He's actually reacted rather positive. We'll see. I just have no clue at all how we restore trust, but Steve seems to think it's possible.

Another note... There is an interesting thread I just saw about avoiding conflict. I've been in that mode for 3 years - or likely our entire marriage. Us BS's are told to not bring up the affair, but when I felt like the affair might be raising it's ugly head, I had no way to ask about it without bringing up the affair. And when I did break down and ask on occasion, WH would get defensive and we were in conflict. So I'd avoided it... Catch 22. Definitely something I'm going to work on with Steve.

I had suspicions but no evidence that they were talking again. I felt like I couldn't say anything because we were in recovery and I was trying to trust him. I was checking his blackberry and work/home computer, but that wasn't enough... I hadn't yet fully recovered from Oct 2011, so trust to me at this point is just a fantasy.

I'll try to come back and post again later in the week. Right now pages are loading so slowly and I've been up all night anyhow because of all of this.

Sorry to hear this, pAp.

I remember your printing out some thoughts of mine for your husband to read last November, which he apparently didn't follow through upon, and I guess I'm taking it a little personally, not as dispassionately as perhaps may be in order here.

Personally, I don't see why you'd want to grant safe harbor to the prospect of more deceit atop that of the past 3 years, although I can suppose one possible conclusion your husband might draw from your being willing to suffer such -- namely, that he's such great stuff that you're willing to put up with an awful lot of crap from him. Regardless of whether that's a message you intend to send, if it's one he's perceiving, I'd worry that it's not compatible with developing the modicum of humility without which inveterate waywards won't readily change their stripes.

IMO, it's past the time for you to have made clear to your husband what my wife succinctly got across to me on our D-Day (quote below), namely that his bum would be on the curb if it happened again. (That's not really meant as an "I-told-you so", pAp -- just my frustration for you). And if I were in your shoes, he'd be sitting there so long, while he proved his changed ways, that there'd be a (_|_)-shaped dent in the concrete. (More frustration. In practical terms, that may not be MB-consistent advice. I understand that in practice, it's harder to save & repair a marriage while apart. As I said, I'm not exactly being dispassionate here, and I'm certainly no Steve Harley.)

Not sure what else to say -- I wish for better for you, pAp.

PAP, I am sorry to be right about this, but we did tell you this would happen. You signed on for this when you refused to change your lifestyles. We told you that traveling jobs are an invitation to an affair and you told us:
As you have learned the hard way, there is no wiggle room.

Yes, travel is your biggest issue. And your husband's refusal to end his affair. As long as he travels you can't hold him accountable, which is the point. As long as he doesn't spend time with you every day, he has more opportunities to resume his affair and never achieves intimacy in your marriage.

You say that other than this affair, your marriage is good. Other than a minor capsizing, the Titanic was a great ship too.

I am hopeful that Steve can talk some sense into you, but as long as you remain in denial about the dangers of a traveling job, I don't see any hope here.

What is tragic about this affair is that there are TWO conflict avoider spouses who are in denial. A RARE THING. Typically, one of the betrayed spouses can follow this program, but that is not true here. Two Bs's in denial makes for a very tough recovery. Hopefully Steve Harley can help you all wake up.

Do you still consider his employment [his traveling job] a "tremendous gift?"

planAprincess and NoGoodDeed,

If your wayward spouse(s) have been like this for years without true consequence (not being held to a true lifestyle change, not in any form of Plan B, no true risk of divorce - due to both of you having a conflict avoider stance on the reality of your marriages), then the fact is simple:

They will not change, because they do not have to.

If a wayward spouse knows that their betrayed spouse is too weak to even demand a lifestyle change (let alone separation or divorce), then they have all the power. All of it.

So here both of you are, years into this - I wonder - are either of you willing to actually take the steps to end your marriage(s)? Or, are you content to live life with a mistress/other man, forever? Right now, you have accepted option 2.

GloveOil -

You made me cry. Not that doing that isn't an extremely easy task at this point...

Trust me - I understand completely what you are saying. When I asked Steve specifically after he had talked with my WH for over 30 minutes alone as to what I should do, he said that I should stay, or not toss him out, if I could stomach it. I am going to talk to Steve more about the mixed signals I feel are being sent by me letting him stay in my discussions with him tomorrow.

Meanwhile, WH is staying in our son's room (son is off at college) and I have set strict boundaries to not be near him intimately in any way shape or form. I walked in on him by accident when going to get something from the closet and he wasn't dressed and it sent me triggering like I've never triggered before. I almost lost my breakfast.

We certainly haven't acted like "nothing" has happened, but we are being civil with each other. He is acting so loving, caring and remorseful, but it's all hallow to me and this time I have told him that and said that in time maybe I'd believe him. We had tickets to a show this weekend with my daughter and her boyfriend. I worry that I'm also sending the wrong signals to her at this point. She knows exactly what happened. I told her within 24 hours of getting his confession. I'm confused on a lot of levels.

But, I'm not going to take my cues from reading, highlighting, analyzing or even taking advice from this board this time - mostly because I am not in the driver's seat this go around and don't want to be. I am going to listen to Steve and we are going to work through this. We may not make it, but we're going to put it in Steve's hands and give it another try. I'm taking a backseat and not playing the "what if" games in my head anymore - or at least as much as I can stop that from happening subconsciously.

Truth be told, I'm not sure I feel "true" love for him anymore at this point. And why should I? His love bank is overdrawn. If I really felt love for him, would I really even want to be in a 20 mile radius of his presence after what he's done to me? I'm messed up. I'm looking forward to talking to Steve tomorrow.

Melody -

I understand your point of view. I really do. But I do want to work this one completely with Steve. Travel job isn't our biggest problem. We have another. Biggest issue is the weakness he has when POSOW wiggles (or bulls her way) through the EP's. I've done enough research on this "Lost Love" phenomenon now to know that this type of affair is a bit tougher to crack. That damn adolescent love is triggered by her contact, and is much worse when it is the sound of her voice. Steve has said that he will work on getting rid of some of that faulty code, so I'm putting it in his hands. Travel hasn't even been mentioned at this point, though I will be bringing it up in tomorrow's session.

As for your comment about "dream job". Yes, I actually do stand by that comment. You aren't reading my notes the way I intended. He is impossible to live with when he is doing a job that he hates. He's miserable and resentful of everyone and everything - including me. When he has a job that he enjoys, he is enjoyable to be around. Does that mean that we can't find him a job that he enjoys that doesn't take him away? No, it doesn't. But with one kid finishing college and another starting, we do have some bills to pay so I'm not going to tell him he has to quit his job to save our marriage. I will travel with him when I can. He will do out and back one day meetings when he can.

Alis -

I am not sure how to reply to your post other than to tell you that right now, where I am, and with what I've shared, it has offended me.

I am not weak. A weak person would walk out the door right now and not put themselves through all of this. Do not tell a BS that you think they are weak when they are trying to save their marriage.

I'm getting my guidance right now directly from Steve Harley. He has all the details/history and has told me to stay for now. I think I trust his opinion a bit more than yours at this point.

PAP, It is frightening that you are still so deep in denial about his traveling job and I fear you are headed for more of the same. Yes, traveling is the biggest problem in your marriage and you still don't realize this. It has not only caused this continuing affair for years, but has prevented the recovery of your marriage.

I have no doubt that Steve will be adddressing this problem with you. Hopefully, he can get through to you. If being hit by the car 10 times over 3 years won't wake you up enough to get you out of the street, I am hopeful that Steve can wake you up. If not, then this is hopeless.


First off this is a false dichotomy. One does not have to be "miserable" in a non traveling job.

And I would only point out the glaring logical flaw that you seem to miss: there is no misery greater than being subjected to an ongoing affair for year after year. NONE.



You believe you will have access to his income in the future and don't see that you are headed towards divorce. The longer his affair goes on, the greater the likelihood you will end up divorced. The greater the likelihood he will leave you for the OW.

PAp,

My H initiated contact after a period of 17 months. It occurred while H was helping his mother after a minor stroke, lasted about 10 days via email and phone. I have no doubt it would have been physical if they had been closer than 3000 miles.

For me, the false recovery was more devastating than the affair itself. H knew exactly what he was doing, and ignored all impact on me and our family. When I knew that he had attempted contact (lied about the actual contact for three more months), I wrote a plan Bish letter and told H that I never wanted to see or speak with him again. H decided he wanted to come home. But, even after all that, he still was not on board for a couple of months. It was then that I told him if he was not "all in, he would be all out". I REQUIRED that we attend an MB weekend and work the program. Then, I stepped back and let H take the lead.

Hopefully, you have read the False Recoveyr thread. It had many posts that resonated with me.

Finally, since the last D-day, my H and I have not spent a night apart. Recently, we had a discusson about one of us driving across country with DS24. We decided that DS will have to drive alone. H does not feel comfortable about nights away. H knows he is a vulnerable person, when alone.

I am so sorry this has happened. A false recovery is a hugely painful thing.

AM

p.s. you may be surprised about what Steve tells you and your husband about his traveling job. My friend who attended the MB seminar with my husband and I was in the same boat.

Steve told her husband to get another job and while he was looking, my friend was instructed to travel with him every week. [she had 3 children at home, 7, 9 and 11] She got weary of the travel and decided to wing it and stay home. He stopped looking soon enough and hooked back up with the OW. He moved in with the OW. They are now divorced. I haven't spoken to her in a couple of years, but as of the last report, she was having to go back to school to learn a trade so she could support herself.

Trust me, the traveling issue is the biggest issue. Your situation is hopeless unless this changes.

princess,

Thank you for coming back and updating us. I am glad to hear that you are working with Steve, and I hope you and your H follow his advice and recover your marriage.

Are you willing to let your H travel again? If you and Steve are satisfied with the level of risk this involves, then it isn't my place to push you in another direction. I hope that things work out for you and your family.

Melody - I understand where you are coming from. I do. And I have no doubt that this will be discussed in future sessions with Steve. Right now it does NO GOOD for me to look at that as our problem. Do you understand that? Here in another FR I cannot put myself in the mindset that this is in any way shape or form "my fault". There are other issues that are much bigger to contend with right now. We can't work on the patient's cancer until we stop the bleeding from the severed limbs.

So, I just ask you to let it go for now. I have some other issues I'm dealing with that must be addressed before we can even begin to work on the marriage.

Army Mama - False recoveries definitely stink and I have gone through that thread (there are 2, if my memory serves me right) in the past and then just recently during the night I couldn't sleep. Interestingly since you bring it up with your FR scenario, if I've put together the clues the right way, she called him at work the day I left the house overnight to take our daughter on some college visits. Timing makes me believe that she's watching MY every move and just waiting for that opportunity to arise to be the little POSOW she can be. Gives me the creeps, as well it should.

Thanks SugarCane. I'll let you know how things go. I don't think Steve will say travel is ok, but I do know we have some other things that scare me a hell of a lot more than him traveling.

The FIRST STEP towards recovery is removing the conditions that led to the affair. When you get hit by a car, wouldn't it be important to first GET OUT OF THE ROAD? If you are a recovering alcoholic and you have a relapse, wouldn't the first step be to get out of the bar? That is what we are telling you.

In recovery from an affair, you first take the steps to affair proof your marriage so you can then work on recovering your marriage. Your husbands traveling job is at the top of that list.

There is no other bigger issue to address until this is resolved. I understand you want to pretend this is not the main issue, but we would not be doing you any favors if we pretended along with you. We care too much to do that.

Check this out:

here

Do you see that? The FIRST PART is to eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. Not later, but NOW. First part.

princess,

OW watched my every move as well. Not literally, as she lives in Belgium and we live in England, but, as it turned out...

...by means of my H TELLING her my every move. And I'm sorry to say, but I think this must be the case for you too.

After my third D Day in 2005, my H asked me to accompany him on every trip that I could, so I went on the next one to Brussels. It would the children's break from school, so we could all go, but I had to get back to work before his trip was over, so I and the kids stayed for the first two nights and left him there for nights three and four.

He and I had a passionate time (as it was a rebuilding trip, after much grief following D Day). We told each other how much we loved each other and spent as much time in bed, ignoring the kids, as we could. We kissed intensely (embarrassing the kids) as he put us on the train to go back to London, and we cooed at each other down the phone until he came home.

(You know what's coming here.)

Only 18 months later, during exposure to OWH in 2007, did I find out that OW was waiting in the hotel lobby for my H to return from taking us to the station that morning, and they went straight to his room and had sex on the same sheets that he and I had had sex on, several times, including that morning.

Ewww.

She told her H proudly about this, and he told me. He was as weak and accommodating as NogoodDeed seems to have been throughout his wife's affairs. The OW/WW in my case had had several affairs, too, and her H was heartbroken and unable to stop them.

I asked my H about this and he claimed not to be able to remember this. Oh well. But my point is that OW could not have been watching my every move and known about my visit to Brussels and return home without my H feeding her that information.

Please think about that in your case.

Well, princess, it seems that there are some things going on for you that you do not want to tell us about here on the board. I trust that you are telling Steve the whole truth about your issues, and that he is aware of your H's travel and your years of false recovery.

My own feeling in 2006, after about my 5th D Day, was that no other issues needed addressing before we could begin working on our marriage. Our marriage was the context for the whole of our family life and my own life as a woman. If my marriage fell apart then I knew I would survive, but if my H wanted to recover with me, then I would demand of him whatever that took.

In 2006, I demanded that my H leave his job on the spot when I found out that the affair had continued unabated since our previous D Day. I told him that if he ever went back to Brussels I would not be there when he got back. Having insisted for a year that he could not just find another job out of thin air, he went to work the next day and told his bosses that he would not be travelling any more, because his marriage was in trouble. They moved hell and high water to get other people to travel to his meetings, and about six months later he was demoted to an officially non-travelling job.

I would have gladly taken unemployment over the risk of another D Day. I knew then that my health could not take it. My kids were 17 and 10 that year (2006) and so in need of many more years' financial support, but we had a house to sell and we were educated with decent employment histories. We could have packed up and moved out of London to somewhere cheaper to live, if he had lost his job, and I was very willing to do that.

Nothing was more important to me than killing the affair if I was to stay married - but I can appreciate that this might not be how you feel.

They're both watching your every move. That is, after all, the number one rule in having an affair--don't get caught!

Please don't assume that he's weak and unable to withstand her advances. It's insulting your intelligence to give him such an out.

Quite true.

]
Consider a few things, PAP. In order to have a happy marriage, decisions must be made that meet these requirements:

1. both parties are enthusiastic about it - BOTH parties are happy. Not just one. The decision made about his travel job was made at the expense of your happiness. So, decisions that are win/lose are taken off the table in favor of decisions that are win/win

2. the decision must complement the marriage. In this case, the traveling job harms your marriage. The marriage should be put first in these decisions

And I do understand that your husband is happy in this position. But your marriage and your own happiness has been sacrificed in the pursuit of his happiness.

A better alternative is to find a job that makes you BOTH happy and complements your marriage. This job is not the only job in the world. There are many jobs that do not require travel.

I too had a job that I was miserable in. I too had to travel about 6-7 nights a month. Stress can have an awful effect on everyone�but only if one allows it. Looking back, I now realize this was a choice AND part of the reason I was unhappy at work was that I was unhappy in my marriage.

The beauty of maturity and hindsight.

Your H does not know what he does not know. None of us have a crystal ball. Little did I know that one day my phone would ring and a better opportunity would arise that took away all travel and paid at a higher level than I had ever experienced. I am quite happy in my career now.

MB has taught me that the career must compliment the marriage NOT the other way around.

I can see no possible way that our current R would stand any chance of survival whatsoever if one of us were required to travel. R is VERY difficult even with 15-20hrs/wk UA time.

We both feel the effects of even 1 evening where we don�t get quality UA time� As Dr Harley says, UA time is the cornerstone of his program.

I am so sorry to hear where you are at. My heart bleeds for you� Prayers to you for your well being.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Happy in his job..at what cost?

Define 'happy'.

Don't see too many smiles coming through the screen today.

Folks, I think it's also worrisome that evidently "travelling" has been presented as being necessary to making any job acceptable to WH.

Phrased differently, "I can best be happy in a job which takes me away from my wife and family."

I wonder why that is. Maybe, pAp, you should pose that exact question to WH during your next session with Steve?

It concerns me, princess, that OWH has found your thread on this board, and I wonder if it concerns you too.

He seems very similar to OWH in my case, who had a near-breakdown over his wife's affairs (as I did over my H's) but was unwilling or unable to do everything possible to stop them, or to end his marriage. OWH in your case seems not to have confronted his wife about her affairs, much less told her that they must stop.

I wouldn't want you to risk everything that Steve Harley advises you to do being reported by OWH to his wife, and thwarted. In your shoes, I wouldn't want that woman knowing anything about my marriage.

I am very, very down and depressed today. Lower than I've been in the past 3 years. I meet with Steve in a couple of hours and have literally 3 pages in a notebook littered with questions. Everything from Plan B to what messages am I sending my kids by trying to work through this AGAIN. I'm a lost soul at this point.

SugarCane - I led OWH to this site years ago hoping he would follow the protocol laid out. If we both did it, then maybe something could be done. I couldn't believe that he (finally) posted and then was alarmed to have his thread linked with mine. Then to have him share on the board word-for-word what I sent him alerting him of their broken no contact... If it's possible to edit his/my thread so there isn't a link from one to the other, I would so appreciate that.

I can tell all of you that I have verified no contact for Oct 2010 to Oct 2011 and then from Oct 2011 to June 30, 2012 when she sent a text (that I missed) just saying "Why?". There is a claim of no contact again until Aug 7 and in my computer sleuthing I cannot find anything prior to that date. On that date in the evening she sends a text, somehow knowing I am away, of "I think we're alone now"...

Traveling is an issue. I know that. All I was trying to do is get you guys to stop making me feel worse so I could recover from the shock and try to heal myself. Throwing it in my face over and over was not good for me. I was dealing with it all pretty well with Steve's guidance until I went to this bboard and saw everything here. I thought I asked you nicely, but even after asking I felt like you were trying to beat me up. Steve asked me SPECIFICALLY to not dwell on fixing the marriage at this point and try to just heal from this latest blow. Unfortunately coming to the board probably set me back from whatever healing I may have been able to achieve over the weekend.

Since you seem to want the entire truth, there was a threat on my life by OW and OW's new EA. It may have been all in stupid drunkeness, but I have documentation of the exchange. It did prove that my WH and POSOW weren't in contact as of May. But it also proved that she was still pining after my H and was possibly reaching for help from her new boyfriend (who lives not far from us) to reel in my WH again. I only have this because of my contact with OWH. I so badly want to go no contact with OWH, but it is the only way I know what the little skank might be plotting. Though now that she's gone completely dark on him, I don't have that.

I will chat with Steve about the situation today. I'm sure he will give me good guidance. Please know that I may not be back to the board for awhile as the triggering that it's causing is sending me to dark places that I can't deal with right now.

Have you been into your doctor for some help? AD or anxiety?

Please make sure you're doing self care. Eating, sleeping, exercising.

princess, I am so sorry that coming here has made you unhappy. I had no idea that this would be the result when I asked you to update us.

You need to stick with Steve's advice. He is the professional and he knows best how to help you. We on the board were unaware that he had said what he did (underlined above).

As for my wanting the entire truth...

Well yes, it is hard to see someone in the same position that I was in for years (a travelling H and repeated D Days) and know how that will cause you to break down mentally, and not try to stop you doing as I did. I was in as bad a mental state as you sound today for about 3 years, princess, and I would do all I can to help someone else not suffer for as long as I did. But I wasn't trying to drag the truth out of you and force you to post it here. I was pointing out that I could see that there were other things that we were unaware of and I was hoping that at least Steve was aware of them, so that he could advise you fully.

I hope that today's session brings you some positive suggestions that you can use. PLEASE see a doctor about your depression if Steve advises it.

You need to click "notify" and ask the moderators if they can help you with that. I'm sure they can.

What did you mean when you said that OW has "gone dark" on her H? Are they still living together? What has happened?

Yup.


How can OW call the very night you leave?


Simple, she has in inside informant. One wayward husband.


"She's so persistent..."


Dog don't come back to the dish if it ain't gettin fed.


I bought the persistent/pursuant AP for about... not at freaking all.


Hello?

Just lighted here to do an update. We had our 6th and 7th sessions with Steve last week.

I need to give some feedback here. When someone is coming here with a false recovery as devastating as this, please don�t start throwing stuff they know in their face and pounding them with it, especially when they have asked you nicely to stop. We don�t want to hear what idiots we are and what we did wrong. We want support. We�re also trying to share our stories so maybe some lost soul later will find the thread and get some help from it.

The facts are as follows: Since the October 2011 broken contact: WH had a business trip in Nov 2011 that we made into a one day trip so he would not stay overnight. He had one 3 day trip in February that frankly brought us a bit closer together since we got to talk on the phone and email/text more often than we do when he�s at work... And we did �pillow talk� both nights until one or the other fell asleep. There was a one day trip again March of 2012 with no overnight. Other than that there has been NO travel up until late August. Travel IS NOT our #1 problem. It is still a �travel job�, but it is SO much less in this past year than previously � because we�ve pushed for that. We did put that EP in place after October. This trip in August was supposed to be a one night trip, but he got �bumped� on his way back and �had to spend the night� to catch a flight the next morning. I smelled a rat and confronted him when he got home� But not before the deed had been done. However, contact was made in July and they had a month of disgusting love emails/texts/phone calls that was just as damaging, if not more, and led to this. As a matter of fact, I did find out that she had planned to come up here a couple of weeks prior, but my WH told her then that I would have to know. That stopped that from happening.

Our #1 problem is this � WH put EP�s in place but never bothered to see that he needed to protect his weaknesses, which meant he also failed to protect me and our marriage. Was I meeting his ENs? Doesn�t matter because he was still addicted and had never come to the realization that there was no way to resist this if he as much as let the phone come to his ear or press the �send� button. This affair was rekindled twice because of that. He had no clue the severity of this addiction and how that �just one more hit� could blow everything completely up. He supposedly gets it now, but I�ve got to tell you I am worried about me sanely making it through 2+ more years of �recovery� at this point.

POSOW started this affair to �seek closure� on how things ended between them 30 years ago. She wasn�t going to quit until she got �complete closure�. And he was able to resist temptation for long periods of time (1 year the first time and 8 months the next). She sent him little texts or emails every few months � just to throw the line out to see if this time she�d get a bite. (We don�t know how many she did in-between as she had to do some sleuthing to find that she was sending to the wrong email or number and find the new one) He would tell me about it and we�d delete them together� but she managed to find him twice where he was weak in his resolve to protect his marriage (if we don�t count the first time � which I don�t count because there wasn�t a no contact plan in place at that point and we knew nothing about MB and having no contact with former lovers�)

So, my biggest issue is not travel. It�s that I have a WH who is so good at lying and compartmentalizing that Steve thinks that a lie detector would be a waste of time because he�d pass � because WH believes his own lies that well. RH is going to be next to impossible. He claims that the thought of the POSOW disgusts him at this point. Seriously? It�s only been 4 weeks. We rushed to recovery too quickly last year. It�s not going to happen again. I�m in no rush to recover this time because I need to know for a fact that he understands every little piece of MB and doesn�t skip a single morsel of info.

I�m staying strong, but only because I�m following exactly what Steve tells me and not straying from that. I talk to him and he gives me guidance. Then he gives guidance to and grills my WH. My WH�s comes out of it saying the right things and for the first time is actually listening to me, holding me when I�m suffering and saying the right things and laying things out without me �finding� them. I don�t have to pretend to be strong and put on a happy face. Steve has made me relax for the first time in 3 years. It is not up to me to recover. He�s set that fact squarely on my WH�s shoulders.

Steve thinks we can get through this and I believe we can if he really can get WH to understand this addiction. I do know that without his help at figuring this out, and if I was taking �advice� from the boards, I would have thrown him out and filed for D the week of August 27th. Truth was that I was meeting his needs as best I could, but even with his needs met and EP�s in place, he still had an addiction that he couldn�t resist �just one more hit� on. He finally gets it � or at least seems to.

My advice for anyone now dealing with a WH that has little remorse is to get them on the phone with Steve. If I had done that last October I think he may have gotten him to this point last year and it would have saved us from this latest mess. I just foolishly thought that I could train the dog myself after reading all the books. Nope. This dog had to want to do the right thing for himself, not for me. The no/little remorse was my red flag. I needed someone else to get him to understand. It couldn�t be me.

If you had been taking Marriage Builders "advice" from this board all along, the false recovery would have never happened because your husband wouldn't have been traveling.

I will just remind you that this board gave you Marriage Builders advice all the way down the line. All anyone has to do is read this thread for themselves to see that. So saying that WE gave you bad advice is only saying that the advice of Dr Bill Harley is wrong or "contradictory" when he is the FOUNDER OF THIS PROGRAM!

Even though you are in denial about the causes of your husband's affair, the truth of the matter is that your husband would not have been able to hook up with the OW if he weren't out of town. If you had listened to the advice here about Extraordinary precautions, this would have never happened.

However, if you see anyone giving contradictory advice here [contradictory to Marriage Builders], I would encourage you to notify the moderators so they can ban that person. It is AGAINST the TOS to do so.

The above is what happens when one ignores the advice on this board.



PAP, you have indicated that you are somehow unique and this advice does not apply to you. If ignoring the advice had worked for you, you might have a case, but it hasn't. The proof is in the pudding...

Thank you for updating us. I am glad that you are working with Steve and that you are happy with the advice that you are getting.

My personal feeling after posting here for many years and having done phone coaching with Steve myself with xWH is that it does not work if the spouse is still "wayward" or engaged in the affair. Is it worth a shot? Yes, of course.

If your WS is not getting on board or still engaging in the behavior that is detrimental to the M, then I would recommend you call Dr Harley personally on the radio show if Steve's advice differs at all from what Dr Harley has posted on this website -- because sometimes their advice DOES differ. Everything that Dr Harley has ever told me has been SPOT ON regarding my ex.



After doing everything everything by the book via MB -- implementing EPs with Steve's help, doing the online course, making our marriage the best it has ever been, spending ALL of our free time together -- my ex had another affair. The only free time he had was while he was at work, and that's where he had his affair. I called Dr Harley up on the radio show and asked, how can I trust that my H will ever get it? That he will ever give up the SSL (secret second life) and IB that makes an A possible? I was very focused on the dishonesty and IB.

Dr Harley redirected me & basically said it's all about the conditions that make an affair possible. And the condition that he saw in my case that needed to be changed that hadn't been already was that my ex couldn't work in the medical field anymore and probably needed a job working with me at home. He couldn't have been more right because w/n 1-2 monts of Plan B, he met OW4 through the workplace. Anyway, again, he stressed looking at the conditions that make the affair possible.

You continue to say that travel isn't the issue, but I know without hesitation that Dr Harley will tell you that it is a CONDITION that has made this affair possible = must be eliminated to recover and affair-proof your M.

If you want a link to that show, LMK. Again, I would strongly encourage you to call, write to Dr Harley and Joyce through the radio show if you are struggling with which direction to go now.

I do also want to give you a hug ((((PaP))))) because I honestly DO KNOW what it is like to live in a M when you are NOT BEING protected. It is HELL. Now that I am out of that situation, I can honestly say 100% NEVER AGAIN will I live like that. Never.

And it appears you have been living in this state of limbo for quite some time. Please understand that at least some of the frustration that you are directing towards this board is actually meant towards your WH for putting you in this situation.

I hope that you don't continue on in this state (with your H not doing what he should to make you feel protected and safe from further contact with OW) for much longer because it WILL take a toll on your health if it hasn't already.

The way it was explained to me this go around... You have to recover from the initial affair and set up the proper EP's and have the spouse want to carry them out for their own sake and protect the marriage above all else before you can even start to apply MB principles. I didn't mean to say that anyone's advice was wrong, but I will tell you that slinging mud at someone who is going through this, or making a betrayed feel like it is their fault that the affair took place is not part of the healing process.

I am sorry if Sugarcane took offense to my comments here or on the other thread. It wasn't her comments at all that I was smarting to. **EDIT**

If I had taken straight MB advice I would have gone into Plan B to D immediately after this 2nd FR. And if I had gone into Plan B and then D, many of you would have been applauding because I was following the program. Steve counseled against that. He focused on starting healing from the affair and setting up REAL CONCRETE BOUNDARIES and getting WH really on board to protect those boundaries/weaknesses before we tried to deal with anything else. I did not realize that he wasn't doing the latter when NC was established the first 2 times. I assumed he would protect them since they were laid out. And he did protect them initially - for me. But he never did it for himself. It won't be until we've discussed Love Busters and tried to eliminate LB's before we move on to trying to restore romantic love. It's a process. And we had to start over because some of our foundation just wasn't sufficient or obviously even there in some places.

All I am trying to say is that it is important to SLOW DOWN sometimes and see where someone asking for help is in the program (or got clobbered back to) before you jump on with your advice or comments.

We will be continuing with Steve. His help has gotten us much further than we ever have been before and I'm finally seeing a light at the end of the dark tunnel. I needed to bring in the professional.

Thank you SusieQ for letting me know that I'm not crazy. The advice is different, but it made so much more sense to me at this point. I will certainly call Dr Harley senior if I feel like we aren't getting past this.

Right now I'm feeling good that I've filled an entire sheet of paper with the reasons why this time our recovery is different - from my point of view. It was my latest exercise and I added 3 more lines to it today. It IS different this time. Travel is a condition that is a contributor, but it is the IB and the dishonesty that have to be dealt with as the primary issue. He is not traveling now and there are no plans to without me.

But I also know, and you have experienced, that it only takes 2 minutes of IB (a call, a text, an email to an old AP) to trash a marriage. Yes, it's that fragile. And I hope my WH finally gets that. It is still the 20 minute trip to Home Depot that will trigger me to wonder if he's called or texted her on some secret phone... or gone to the library to IM her from there... Or I'm looking for his blackberry when he's gone into the bathroom and if it's not on the charger I'm wondering if he'll call or text POSOW from there like he did 3 years ago... I don't have control over what he does. Only he has control. And he has to make sure that never happens ever again or our marriage is history. And if that is the case, it will not be my fault. He chose that outcome by choosing dishonesty and IB.

I guess I'll just sign off for awhile since my comments or background doesn't seem to be wanted here right now. Or I'm not coming across the correct way - certainly not the way I intended. BW Fog? Maybe I need to take a break here again to make sure my frustration isn't directed someplace other than my WH as SusieQ might be onto something there. Any of my comments were meant to help others, not hurt. So if I hurt anyone, please accept my deepest apologies.

Exactly! He has to know that contact is a deal breaker. Make sure he knows that and that you will stand firm on it.

NO ONE slung mud at you. But you have slung it at well meaning board members [many with recovered marriages] that took time out of our busy lives to try and help you. We told you about the program and explained to you that your marriage would not make it unless your husband stopped traveling and other extraordinary precautions were put in place. I would suggest that your resentment towards board members stems from the fact they told you unpleasant truths while you are in denial.


You have this exactly backwards. In order to recover from the affair, extraordinary precautions have to be put into place, followed by the implementation of MB principles. Those EPs are never negotiable.

In your case you never took the first step and put the EPs into place because you believed they were not necessary.

There is a very strict process, but that has been explained - and rejected by you - numerous times. WE can see the result.


If you would have taken straight MB advice in the first place, it is unlikely you would have suffered multiple false recoveries and a never ending affair. You could have avoided all your false recoveries. Your FR's are the most likely to lead to divorce, NOT a happily recovered marriage and NOT Plan B. *You* have jeoparidized your marriage by ignoring this program.

And I intend to point this out to newcomers when they try to cut corners like you have. Your FRs were completely unneccesary. While there are no guarantees, there is a guarantee of "DISASTER" when you ignore MB principles. You have learned this the hard way. You have proven Dr Harley correct when he says:


You can deny that all you want but the proof is in the pudding.

Dr Harley explains it right here very clearly:


So you see, you have to do these things in order to recover, not the other way around. Your own way has wrought you nothing but grief, I hope you can see that you are your own worst enemy, PAP.

PAP, I want to add that I do not believe that anyone has to follow these principles. That is up to you.

My only beef here is that you continually try to rationalize how your lack of compliance has nothing to do with your multiple false recoveries and a long term affair. It is that denial that must be addressed and pointed out. Those of us who are in recovery and know how it works know that you have worked very hard, to your peril, to spin this board about your unsuccessful tactics.

If your own methods had worked for you, you might have a convincing case for using an "alternative" plan. But they haven't. Your own methods have led to disaster.

PAP,

To break an addiction, change the environment. Putting temptation in front of someone (being alone at night) and asking the person to avoid it is an impractical approach. If people could avoid affairs just by using their willpower, there would be far fewer affairs. That is the importance of extraordinary precautions.

AM

You posted the above in November of 2011.

That is one of the reasons that your WH is, well, still wayward: there are no consequences. He cheats, you are mad for a while, he says the right things and learns the rules for keeping you complacent, citing MB where appropriate, but nothing changes and then you find yourself nearly one year later in the same situation again.

And it's not your "fault" that he hasn't changed, he just hasn't had any real reason to really change. A few changes on the surface worked pretty well, I'd say. I just don't see where you've put the onus on him to convince you to stay married to him.

I'm looking forward to you posting that you've had enough of this and are beyond fed up.

PaP, both myself and my sister have done several sessions of the phone coaching with Steve. Hers was directly at the start of R, mine was a quite a period of into recovery (I think 2 years) and the way he explained it to both of us was the same
way -- that the WS must make the BS feel safe before working on the "connection" phase of recovery. His analogy is the BS has a severe injury and the WS needs to heal the injury by making the BS feel safe and implementing EPs...otherwise the M will "limp" along. I posted about what Steve said on HPB's famous EP list.

And he worked with both of our WSs on EPs -- both of them had "no travel" on their written EP lists under his direction so I am really surprised that he has not advised you of this if he knows the circumstances of the A and this latest FR. Really shocked.

May have been fixed in Ovtober?
One thing about addiction that loved spouses make mistakes on: trying to fix them.

You can't fix bad behavior.
The best way to help an addict or anyone making self destructive decisions is to allow them to face the natural consequences of their actions.