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PlanAprincess allowed her H to have another night away for a "business trip". We did warn her about those.

They might have managed to meet in a hotel for sex regardless, but overnight travel is an easy way for sexual encounters to happen.

I hope, if these two couples are serious about recovery, that they will put an end to the trips. Steve Harley should be advising princess and her H to do exactly that, right now. I also found that the workplace contact was impossible to stop until my H gave up work altogether and took early retirement. That is likely to be the case for these BSs, also. They've seen how strong the attraction is between their spouses and they should not be prepared to attempt recovery without heroic measures, which go far beyond NC letters.


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Originally Posted by planAprincess
Just a quick update, as promised...

It was a very, very good weekend for our marriage. We downloaded a bunch of the radio shows and listened to them in the car. It took us an hour to get through the first 10 minute segment because something would make us stop and talk about what was just said. This was the first time we've listened to these together and it is a VERY good thing to do if any of you don't already use these to jump start discussions.

Some things that I've learned from this, for anyone who may find this thread after a WS has broken contact after an extended time in recovery,OR for a WS that is even considering just a little "how are you doing?" email or phone call to the OP...

First - I notice that it is taking me awhile to really "feel" the love again for my WS. He is trying very hard and I think REALLY gets what he did wrong and knows that it absolutely can never happen again, but I cannot stress enough just how much this took out of the LB$. I had felt almost fully recovered and was so deeply in love with him before he made that phone call... It is going to take a long time to recover that. I think if we hadn't recovered as much as we had already, this may have wiped it out completely. I'd be in Plan B.

Second - For those who have been dealing with EA's - especially with all this reconnecting on FB, Classmates, etc - it is much more of a problem than it may seem on the surface. I think EXTRA diligence needs to be made for everyone to realize just how dangerous connecting with "old friends" can be. Even if you didn't have a romantic relationship with someone in your past, I think there is the "I remember you when" path that can lead to many places that a happily married person would want to stay clear of.

Third - Come here if you need help. It can be tough love, but if you are distraught there are some awesome people on here that can help you through it. I wish I had the time to devote to "being here" for others more often. During the times things are going well I log in once in awhile, but not much. When something is bothering me I spend hours, even days, pouring through and developing a plan for my own life/relationship. We are so blessed to have this community to come to.
pAp, please come back here and post. I am sorry to hear about your latest D Day. I am sure you must be feeling worse now than when you discovered the affair before. I've been through repeated D Days with the details after the second one being much worse than after the first, so I know how they bring you to the brink of a breakdown.

It seems from what OWH posted on his thread that you have been meeting meeting them as a couple - in other words, allowing the affair partners to meet.

This is so far against MB advice that I am horrified. It also seems that you did not take our adice to stop his overnight travel.

If I am right and you have not been following the advice you were given here, I am fearful for your marriage. Please post here again, and follow our advice this time.

As far as you know, did their marriage start out as an affair?


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
It seems from what OWH posted on his thread that you have been meeting meeting them as a couple - in other words, allowing the affair partners to meet.

This is so far against MB advice that I am horrified. It also seems that you did not take our adice to stop his overnight travel.

If I am right and you have not been following the advice you were given here, I am fearful for your marriage. Please post here again, and follow our advice this time.

As far as you know, did their marriage start out as an affair?

The meetings were stupid. I didn't even realize we were venturing into EA territory when they happened...those were all in 2009, with the last one on NYE 2009/2010.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have tried to discourage my WW's contact with pAp's husband initially, let alone allow them to meet.

As for your last question, and I know I'm going to get crucified, but yes, I was 18 when I met WW and while I should have known better, I didn't.


Me-BH 40
WW 49
DD 14
DD 11
DS 7

Together 22 Years, only relationship I've had.
M 16 Years, my 1st, her 2nd.

The following are my WW with PlanAPrincess' WH
HSSweethearts/Fiance who reconnected on Classmates and FB
EA 9/2009 - 8/2012
PA 8/24/12 D-Day 8/27/12

EA2 HS Acquaintance 12/10-Current
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Sugarcane -

Since you asked so nicely, I will post. Honestly I did not want to even come to the boards because I didn't want "Told you so" thrown in my face, but I guess that happened whether I was here and posted or not.

I'm glad POSOW's H is posting now. Maybe he will finally take a lead in getting his life back. I did not come here because I didn't want to be beat up again for something that I can't control. I cannot control POSOW. I cannot control my WH's (He's MORE than earned that W again) response when the persistent little POSOW finds a way to sneak through the EP's and give my H her little sob story of how horrible her life is without him...

So, this time is different. Very different. I don't know fully 100% if I want to stay in the marriage, but I do know that other than this stupid affair we do have a wonderful marriage. So, here I am with damned if I do and damned if I don't. He says he doesn't know "why" he did it. He's gaslighting. Big time. However, this time I threw in the towel and told him that the ball is in his court. Completely. Time for him to step up and work towards recovery. I am not in Plan A anymore. Steve Harley told me to sit back and relax - and heal. He will guide my WH to help me heal since we need to do that before we have any chance of working on the M.

Travel. Yes. I "let" him travel. However, I did not "let" him do this to me. He did it. Not my fault. Travel isn't the biggest issue here. She's so persistent that I'm certain that if it didn't happen this way, she would have driven up here and jumped him in the parking lot where he works. She has shut out her H completely from her life. All secret passwords and email accounts. Locked phone. Her own locked computer. He's got a much tougher road than I. I do have full access to WH's computer, and all of his passwords, however I do not have access to his phone at work and can't camp out in his office every day.

We started counseling with Steve last Friday. A great session and I will tell you that I felt true peace for the first time in 3 years after listening to him and taking his advice. We have our next session on Wednesday.

As for some of the other things coming up that are confusing the issue - we met with POSOW and her H in 2009, but not at all since DDay. I was clueless as to the details of OW and my WH's relationship at that point - just not feeling good about what I felt was there. It was our first DDay shortly after that meeting since I was able to then know who the OW's H was and ask him for evidence.

As for us right now... WH and I had a good weekend so far. We are talking. Tons of UA time. I was ready to go directly into Plan B, but Steve told me that if I can stomach being around WH that I have a better chance of saving this being here. So here I am. Trying not to AO or DJ, but a few have certainly slipped. This time though, I did have Steve's blessing and obviously he coached my WH that I need to have these and he's not to react negatively to them. He's actually reacted rather positive. We'll see. I just have no clue at all how we restore trust, but Steve seems to think it's possible.

Another note... There is an interesting thread I just saw about avoiding conflict. I've been in that mode for 3 years - or likely our entire marriage. Us BS's are told to not bring up the affair, but when I felt like the affair might be raising it's ugly head, I had no way to ask about it without bringing up the affair. And when I did break down and ask on occasion, WH would get defensive and we were in conflict. So I'd avoided it... Catch 22. Definitely something I'm going to work on with Steve.

I had suspicions but no evidence that they were talking again. I felt like I couldn't say anything because we were in recovery and I was trying to trust him. I was checking his blackberry and work/home computer, but that wasn't enough... I hadn't yet fully recovered from Oct 2011, so trust to me at this point is just a fantasy.

I'll try to come back and post again later in the week. Right now pages are loading so slowly and I've been up all night anyhow because of all of this.


Me - BW 50
WH - 49
DS 21
DD 17
M - 27 years
EA - 9/2009-4/2010 (HS girlfriend/fiancee)
Confrontation Day - 1/15/2010 (D-Day to me was in 9/2009 she contacted him via Classmates. Emails from OS on 1/13/2010 give me evidence of EA)
D-Day of my own EA in 1989 - 1/19/2010
NC Letter via email - 4/8/2010
Broken NC - 10/21/2011
NC Letter via email - 10/24/2011
NC Broken and PA one night stand - 8/24/2012
Sessions with Steve Harley begin 8/31/2012
Handwritten NC Letter confirmed delivery 9/4/2012
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Sorry to hear this, pAp.

I remember your printing out some thoughts of mine for your husband to read last November, which he apparently didn't follow through upon, and I guess I'm taking it a little personally, not as dispassionately as perhaps may be in order here.

Personally, I don't see why you'd want to grant safe harbor to the prospect of more deceit atop that of the past 3 years, although I can suppose one possible conclusion your husband might draw from your being willing to suffer such -- namely, that he's such great stuff that you're willing to put up with an awful lot of crap from him. Regardless of whether that's a message you intend to send, if it's one he's perceiving, I'd worry that it's not compatible with developing the modicum of humility without which inveterate waywards won't readily change their stripes.

IMO, it's past the time for you to have made clear to your husband what my wife succinctly got across to me on our D-Day (quote below), namely that his bum would be on the curb if it happened again. (That's not really meant as an "I-told-you so", pAp -- just my frustration for you). And if I were in your shoes, he'd be sitting there so long, while he proved his changed ways, that there'd be a (_|_)-shaped dent in the concrete. (More frustration. In practical terms, that may not be MB-consistent advice. I understand that in practice, it's harder to save & repair a marriage while apart. As I said, I'm not exactly being dispassionate here, and I'm certainly no Steve Harley.)

Not sure what else to say -- I wish for better for you, pAp.



Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Originally Posted by planAprincess
I'm glad POSOW's H is posting now. Maybe he will finally take a lead in getting his life back. I did not come here because I didn't want to be beat up again for something that I can't control. I cannot control POSOW. I cannot control my WH's (He's MORE than earned that W again) response when the persistent little POSOW finds a way to sneak through the EP's and give my H her little sob story of how horrible her life is without him...

PAP, I am sorry to be right about this, but we did tell you this would happen. You signed on for this when you refused to change your lifestyles. We told you that traveling jobs are an invitation to an affair and you told us:
Originally Posted by PlanAPrincess
. Do I think there is a tiny bit of wiggle room in some of them - yes. I think all situations are different, especially when it comes to some of the needs that are outside of the relationship.

As you have learned the hard way, there is no wiggle room.

Yes, travel is your biggest issue. And your husband's refusal to end his affair. As long as he travels you can't hold him accountable, which is the point. As long as he doesn't spend time with you every day, he has more opportunities to resume his affair and never achieves intimacy in your marriage.

You say that other than this affair, your marriage is good. Other than a minor capsizing, the Titanic was a great ship too.

I am hopeful that Steve can talk some sense into you, but as long as you remain in denial about the dangers of a traveling job, I don't see any hope here.

What is tragic about this affair is that there are TWO conflict avoider spouses who are in denial. A RARE THING. Typically, one of the betrayed spouses can follow this program, but that is not true here. Two Bs's in denial makes for a very tough recovery. Hopefully Steve Harley can help you all wake up.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by planAprincess on 11-9-11
I can tell you that what we receive in our relationship based on his being happy with his employment is a tremendous gift. One I will not lose on a whim to take what is an outstanding relationship and try to make it exemplary. We've lived the hell of him not being happy in his job and it isn't pretty.

Do you still consider his employment [his traveling job] a "tremendous gift?"


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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planAprincess and NoGoodDeed,

If your wayward spouse(s) have been like this for years without true consequence (not being held to a true lifestyle change, not in any form of Plan B, no true risk of divorce - due to both of you having a conflict avoider stance on the reality of your marriages), then the fact is simple:

They will not change, because they do not have to.

If a wayward spouse knows that their betrayed spouse is too weak to even demand a lifestyle change (let alone separation or divorce), then they have all the power. All of it.

So here both of you are, years into this - I wonder - are either of you willing to actually take the steps to end your marriage(s)? Or, are you content to live life with a mistress/other man, forever? Right now, you have accepted option 2.

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GloveOil -

You made me cry. Not that doing that isn't an extremely easy task at this point...

Trust me - I understand completely what you are saying. When I asked Steve specifically after he had talked with my WH for over 30 minutes alone as to what I should do, he said that I should stay, or not toss him out, if I could stomach it. I am going to talk to Steve more about the mixed signals I feel are being sent by me letting him stay in my discussions with him tomorrow.

Meanwhile, WH is staying in our son's room (son is off at college) and I have set strict boundaries to not be near him intimately in any way shape or form. I walked in on him by accident when going to get something from the closet and he wasn't dressed and it sent me triggering like I've never triggered before. I almost lost my breakfast.

We certainly haven't acted like "nothing" has happened, but we are being civil with each other. He is acting so loving, caring and remorseful, but it's all hallow to me and this time I have told him that and said that in time maybe I'd believe him. We had tickets to a show this weekend with my daughter and her boyfriend. I worry that I'm also sending the wrong signals to her at this point. She knows exactly what happened. I told her within 24 hours of getting his confession. I'm confused on a lot of levels.

But, I'm not going to take my cues from reading, highlighting, analyzing or even taking advice from this board this time - mostly because I am not in the driver's seat this go around and don't want to be. I am going to listen to Steve and we are going to work through this. We may not make it, but we're going to put it in Steve's hands and give it another try. I'm taking a backseat and not playing the "what if" games in my head anymore - or at least as much as I can stop that from happening subconsciously.

Truth be told, I'm not sure I feel "true" love for him anymore at this point. And why should I? His love bank is overdrawn. If I really felt love for him, would I really even want to be in a 20 mile radius of his presence after what he's done to me? I'm messed up. I'm looking forward to talking to Steve tomorrow.


Me - BW 50
WH - 49
DS 21
DD 17
M - 27 years
EA - 9/2009-4/2010 (HS girlfriend/fiancee)
Confrontation Day - 1/15/2010 (D-Day to me was in 9/2009 she contacted him via Classmates. Emails from OS on 1/13/2010 give me evidence of EA)
D-Day of my own EA in 1989 - 1/19/2010
NC Letter via email - 4/8/2010
Broken NC - 10/21/2011
NC Letter via email - 10/24/2011
NC Broken and PA one night stand - 8/24/2012
Sessions with Steve Harley begin 8/31/2012
Handwritten NC Letter confirmed delivery 9/4/2012
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Melody -

I understand your point of view. I really do. But I do want to work this one completely with Steve. Travel job isn't our biggest problem. We have another. Biggest issue is the weakness he has when POSOW wiggles (or bulls her way) through the EP's. I've done enough research on this "Lost Love" phenomenon now to know that this type of affair is a bit tougher to crack. That damn adolescent love is triggered by her contact, and is much worse when it is the sound of her voice. Steve has said that he will work on getting rid of some of that faulty code, so I'm putting it in his hands. Travel hasn't even been mentioned at this point, though I will be bringing it up in tomorrow's session.

As for your comment about "dream job". Yes, I actually do stand by that comment. You aren't reading my notes the way I intended. He is impossible to live with when he is doing a job that he hates. He's miserable and resentful of everyone and everything - including me. When he has a job that he enjoys, he is enjoyable to be around. Does that mean that we can't find him a job that he enjoys that doesn't take him away? No, it doesn't. But with one kid finishing college and another starting, we do have some bills to pay so I'm not going to tell him he has to quit his job to save our marriage. I will travel with him when I can. He will do out and back one day meetings when he can.


Me - BW 50
WH - 49
DS 21
DD 17
M - 27 years
EA - 9/2009-4/2010 (HS girlfriend/fiancee)
Confrontation Day - 1/15/2010 (D-Day to me was in 9/2009 she contacted him via Classmates. Emails from OS on 1/13/2010 give me evidence of EA)
D-Day of my own EA in 1989 - 1/19/2010
NC Letter via email - 4/8/2010
Broken NC - 10/21/2011
NC Letter via email - 10/24/2011
NC Broken and PA one night stand - 8/24/2012
Sessions with Steve Harley begin 8/31/2012
Handwritten NC Letter confirmed delivery 9/4/2012
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Alis -

I am not sure how to reply to your post other than to tell you that right now, where I am, and with what I've shared, it has offended me.

I am not weak. A weak person would walk out the door right now and not put themselves through all of this. Do not tell a BS that you think they are weak when they are trying to save their marriage.

I'm getting my guidance right now directly from Steve Harley. He has all the details/history and has told me to stay for now. I think I trust his opinion a bit more than yours at this point.


Me - BW 50
WH - 49
DS 21
DD 17
M - 27 years
EA - 9/2009-4/2010 (HS girlfriend/fiancee)
Confrontation Day - 1/15/2010 (D-Day to me was in 9/2009 she contacted him via Classmates. Emails from OS on 1/13/2010 give me evidence of EA)
D-Day of my own EA in 1989 - 1/19/2010
NC Letter via email - 4/8/2010
Broken NC - 10/21/2011
NC Letter via email - 10/24/2011
NC Broken and PA one night stand - 8/24/2012
Sessions with Steve Harley begin 8/31/2012
Handwritten NC Letter confirmed delivery 9/4/2012
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Originally Posted by planAprincess
I understand your point of view. I really do. But I do want to work this one completely with Steve. Travel job isn't our biggest problem. We have another. Biggest issue is the weakness he has when POSOW wiggles (or bulls her way) through the EP's.

PAP, It is frightening that you are still so deep in denial about his traveling job and I fear you are headed for more of the same. Yes, traveling is the biggest problem in your marriage and you still don't realize this. It has not only caused this continuing affair for years, but has prevented the recovery of your marriage.

I have no doubt that Steve will be adddressing this problem with you. Hopefully, he can get through to you. If being hit by the car 10 times over 3 years won't wake you up enough to get you out of the street, I am hopeful that Steve can wake you up. If not, then this is hopeless.

Quote
You aren't reading my notes the way I intended. He is impossible to live with when he is doing a job that he hates. He's miserable and resentful of everyone and everything - including me

First off this is a false dichotomy. One does not have to be "miserable" in a non traveling job.

And I would only point out the glaring logical flaw that you seem to miss: there is no misery greater than being subjected to an ongoing affair for year after year. NONE.


Quote
No, it doesn't. But with one kid finishing college and another starting, we do have some bills to pay so I'm not going to tell him he has to quit his job to save our marriage. I will travel with him when I can. He will do out and back one day meetings when he can.

You believe you will have access to his income in the future and don't see that you are headed towards divorce. The longer his affair goes on, the greater the likelihood you will end up divorced. The greater the likelihood he will leave you for the OW.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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PAp,

My H initiated contact after a period of 17 months. It occurred while H was helping his mother after a minor stroke, lasted about 10 days via email and phone. I have no doubt it would have been physical if they had been closer than 3000 miles.

For me, the false recovery was more devastating than the affair itself. H knew exactly what he was doing, and ignored all impact on me and our family. When I knew that he had attempted contact (lied about the actual contact for three more months), I wrote a plan Bish letter and told H that I never wanted to see or speak with him again. H decided he wanted to come home. But, even after all that, he still was not on board for a couple of months. It was then that I told him if he was not "all in, he would be all out". I REQUIRED that we attend an MB weekend and work the program. Then, I stepped back and let H take the lead.

Hopefully, you have read the False Recoveyr thread. It had many posts that resonated with me.

Finally, since the last D-day, my H and I have not spent a night apart. Recently, we had a discusson about one of us driving across country with DS24. We decided that DS will have to drive alone. H does not feel comfortable about nights away. H knows he is a vulnerable person, when alone.

I am so sorry this has happened. A false recovery is a hugely painful thing.

AM


BW - 70
WH - 65
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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p.s. you may be surprised about what Steve tells you and your husband about his traveling job. My friend who attended the MB seminar with my husband and I was in the same boat.

Steve told her husband to get another job and while he was looking, my friend was instructed to travel with him every week. [she had 3 children at home, 7, 9 and 11] She got weary of the travel and decided to wing it and stay home. He stopped looking soon enough and hooked back up with the OW. He moved in with the OW. They are now divorced. I haven't spoken to her in a couple of years, but as of the last report, she was having to go back to school to learn a trade so she could support herself.

Trust me, the traveling issue is the biggest issue. Your situation is hopeless unless this changes.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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princess,

Thank you for coming back and updating us. I am glad to hear that you are working with Steve, and I hope you and your H follow his advice and recover your marriage.

Are you willing to let your H travel again? If you and Steve are satisfied with the level of risk this involves, then it isn't my place to push you in another direction. I hope that things work out for you and your family.


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Melody - I understand where you are coming from. I do. And I have no doubt that this will be discussed in future sessions with Steve. Right now it does NO GOOD for me to look at that as our problem. Do you understand that? Here in another FR I cannot put myself in the mindset that this is in any way shape or form "my fault". There are other issues that are much bigger to contend with right now. We can't work on the patient's cancer until we stop the bleeding from the severed limbs.

So, I just ask you to let it go for now. I have some other issues I'm dealing with that must be addressed before we can even begin to work on the marriage.

Army Mama - False recoveries definitely stink and I have gone through that thread (there are 2, if my memory serves me right) in the past and then just recently during the night I couldn't sleep. Interestingly since you bring it up with your FR scenario, if I've put together the clues the right way, she called him at work the day I left the house overnight to take our daughter on some college visits. Timing makes me believe that she's watching MY every move and just waiting for that opportunity to arise to be the little POSOW she can be. Gives me the creeps, as well it should.

Thanks SugarCane. I'll let you know how things go. I don't think Steve will say travel is ok, but I do know we have some other things that scare me a hell of a lot more than him traveling.


Me - BW 50
WH - 49
DS 21
DD 17
M - 27 years
EA - 9/2009-4/2010 (HS girlfriend/fiancee)
Confrontation Day - 1/15/2010 (D-Day to me was in 9/2009 she contacted him via Classmates. Emails from OS on 1/13/2010 give me evidence of EA)
D-Day of my own EA in 1989 - 1/19/2010
NC Letter via email - 4/8/2010
Broken NC - 10/21/2011
NC Letter via email - 10/24/2011
NC Broken and PA one night stand - 8/24/2012
Sessions with Steve Harley begin 8/31/2012
Handwritten NC Letter confirmed delivery 9/4/2012
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Originally Posted by planAprincess
Melody - I understand where you are coming from. I do. And I have no doubt that this will be discussed in future sessions with Steve. Right now it does NO GOOD for me to look at that as our problem. Do you understand that? Here in another FR I cannot put myself in the mindset that this is in any way shape or form "my fault". There are other issues that are much bigger to contend with right now. We can't work on the patient's cancer until we stop the bleeding from the severed limbs.

The FIRST STEP towards recovery is removing the conditions that led to the affair. When you get hit by a car, wouldn't it be important to first GET OUT OF THE ROAD? If you are a recovering alcoholic and you have a relapse, wouldn't the first step be to get out of the bar? That is what we are telling you.

In recovery from an affair, you first take the steps to affair proof your marriage so you can then work on recovering your marriage. Your husbands traveling job is at the top of that list.

There is no other bigger issue to address until this is resolved. I understand you want to pretend this is not the main issue, but we would not be doing you any favors if we pretended along with you. We care too much to do that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Check this out:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley in Requirements for Recovery
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.
here

Do you see that? The FIRST PART is to eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. Not later, but NOW. First part.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by planAprincess
if I've put together the clues the right way, she called him at work the day I left the house overnight to take our daughter on some college visits. Timing makes me believe that she's watching MY every move and just waiting for that opportunity to arise to be the little POSOW she can be. Gives me the creeps, as well it should.
princess,

OW watched my every move as well. Not literally, as she lives in Belgium and we live in England, but, as it turned out...

...by means of my H TELLING her my every move. And I'm sorry to say, but I think this must be the case for you too.

After my third D Day in 2005, my H asked me to accompany him on every trip that I could, so I went on the next one to Brussels. It would the children's break from school, so we could all go, but I had to get back to work before his trip was over, so I and the kids stayed for the first two nights and left him there for nights three and four.

He and I had a passionate time (as it was a rebuilding trip, after much grief following D Day). We told each other how much we loved each other and spent as much time in bed, ignoring the kids, as we could. We kissed intensely (embarrassing the kids) as he put us on the train to go back to London, and we cooed at each other down the phone until he came home.

(You know what's coming here.)

Only 18 months later, during exposure to OWH in 2007, did I find out that OW was waiting in the hotel lobby for my H to return from taking us to the station that morning, and they went straight to his room and had sex on the same sheets that he and I had had sex on, several times, including that morning.

Ewww.

She told her H proudly about this, and he told me. He was as weak and accommodating as NogoodDeed seems to have been throughout his wife's affairs. The OW/WW in my case had had several affairs, too, and her H was heartbroken and unable to stop them.

I asked my H about this and he claimed not to be able to remember this. Oh well. But my point is that OW could not have been watching my every move and known about my visit to Brussels and return home without my H feeding her that information.

Please think about that in your case.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Originally Posted by planAprincess
Melody - I understand where you are coming from. I do. And I have no doubt that this will be discussed in future sessions with Steve. Right now it does NO GOOD for me to look at that as our problem. Do you understand that? Here in another FR I cannot put myself in the mindset that this is in any way shape or form "my fault". There are other issues that are much bigger to contend with right now. We can't work on the patient's cancer until we stop the bleeding from the severed limbs.

So, I just ask you to let it go for now. I have some other issues I'm dealing with that must be addressed before we can even begin to work on the marriage.

Army Mama - False recoveries definitely stink and I have gone through that thread (there are 2, if my memory serves me right) in the past and then just recently during the night I couldn't sleep. Interestingly since you bring it up with your FR scenario, if I've put together the clues the right way, she called him at work the day I left the house overnight to take our daughter on some college visits. Timing makes me believe that she's watching MY every move and just waiting for that opportunity to arise to be the little POSOW she can be. Gives me the creeps, as well it should.

Thanks SugarCane. I'll let you know how things go. I don't think Steve will say travel is ok, but I do know we have some other things that scare me a hell of a lot more than him traveling.
Well, princess, it seems that there are some things going on for you that you do not want to tell us about here on the board. I trust that you are telling Steve the whole truth about your issues, and that he is aware of your H's travel and your years of false recovery.

My own feeling in 2006, after about my 5th D Day, was that no other issues needed addressing before we could begin working on our marriage. Our marriage was the context for the whole of our family life and my own life as a woman. If my marriage fell apart then I knew I would survive, but if my H wanted to recover with me, then I would demand of him whatever that took.

In 2006, I demanded that my H leave his job on the spot when I found out that the affair had continued unabated since our previous D Day. I told him that if he ever went back to Brussels I would not be there when he got back. Having insisted for a year that he could not just find another job out of thin air, he went to work the next day and told his bosses that he would not be travelling any more, because his marriage was in trouble. They moved hell and high water to get other people to travel to his meetings, and about six months later he was demoted to an officially non-travelling job.

I would have gladly taken unemployment over the risk of another D Day. I knew then that my health could not take it. My kids were 17 and 10 that year (2006) and so in need of many more years' financial support, but we had a house to sell and we were educated with decent employment histories. We could have packed up and moved out of London to somewhere cheaper to live, if he had lost his job, and I was very willing to do that.

Nothing was more important to me than killing the affair if I was to stay married - but I can appreciate that this might not be how you feel.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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