MB, he called her. She emailed him and he called her and talked for 2 hours.

Speaking strictly from a former wayward perspective....

Any two hour phone call, was a major drug fix! Then lying about what was said..... (witholding truth is lying)

The affair has re-ignited and he's just waiting for the right time to fly under the radar again.....

NC letter?? IMO, Pretty useless! You are looking pretty foolish here.... Your Husband, nor the OW have any respect for the idea of NC, nor any respect for you??

Did you ever have a polygraph done to verify he hasn't cheated on you before, that this wasn't a PA and that his oversea trips haven't led to any one night stands???

I think you're playing with fire, and you're dismissing your own intuition that maybe your H is a bigger con and liar than you want to believe he is.

pAp, your husband is in quite a bit of fog if he can look you in the eye & tell you, as you've said, that he'll "always" have feelings for her.

That tells me he's not working hard enough. And that perhaps he doesn't see his emotional infidelity for what it was. He still thinks it wasn't that bad.

Otherwise he'd be too embarrassed for himself (even if not fully/appropriately sensitized to your pain) to say something like that to your face.

He needs to do some work at reassociating his recollections of her. He needs to get his empathy gene re-wired into his DNA. Empathy for you.

For him to continue not to invest the effort this requires, so that he can emotionally hedge his bets by holding onto "fond" memories of her, will be a huge stumbling block to the kind of marriage you want. (And you're seeing evidence of that, in his lukewarm attitude toward his EPs.)

Gotta get to work, but I'd like to come back to this theme later -- maybe others can chime in in the interim.

jessitaylor -

Here is the thread "Eternal Triangle?" It is one I keep going back to whenever I need to know that I'm not alone:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2473943#Post2473943

I need to gather my thoughts from the past 12 hours before I can post too much, though I need to purge my brain of some of the thoughts so I'll at least start...

I brought this all up on the walk last night with WH (even though I said I wouldn't - it was eating me too much, just like sweetpea said...) Then I couldn't get to sleep last night, then when I finally did I woke up a couple of hours later. I went to get out of bed after lying awake for hours and he stopped me to ask me why I wasn't sleeping and I told him. Honestly. EXACTLY what was on my mind.

Let's just say that now coming to my computer after he's left for work and reading HerPapaBear's reply (which says exactly what is on my mind - so thank you HPB for responding...), I am a fool. And he, nor OW, has any respect for NC, me and certainly my feelings.

So does that make the last 18 months as big of a sham as the 6 months that I spent in Plan A working on my marriage while the affair was still going on? Yes, I'm calling that a sham now - as the tears fall down my face. It nauseated me to have SF with him for a couple of months when I knew full well that the affair was going on, but I did it to satisfy his needs and play nice plan A. I felt that part of plan A was a sham. That I was doing what I needed to do to fix my marriage and gain him back. What I displayed outwardly for those 6 months was NOT what I was internally.

What the @#$*7 has he done for me? The ONE THING I've asked for - demanded of him - the only thing in 27 years of marriage is to be rid of her forever.

We talked Plan B this morning. He said he'd move out if I wanted him to. I don't want him to move out. But I do want him to. But I don't. I "just" want assurances that the POSOW won't ever be on the radar again. But as I re-read the initial posting in the link above I realize that I'm fooling myself to think that that will ever happen.

I asked him flat out what he'd do if she showed up on our doorstop tomorrow, 2 years from now, 10 years from now... He said he would help her. I said "wrong answer". I got the "but she's an old friend" crap again. He does still have feelings for her and I can't change that. I know that. And based on most of what he said this morning, he "gets" completely that what he did was wrong. And he wants to be with me and wants to go back to what we had before he MADE THE CHOICE to call her.

To answer some other questions from before - Yes, we did a NC letter - 18 months ago. He switched jobs 13 months ago and those first 12 months when she hadn't searched him out were amazing. Triggers, and normal recovery bumps, yes - but the best year of marriage we've ever had. The best marriage anyone could ask for. Except...

He hasn't internalized NC. It's just words on a page. He's compartmentalizing this again. Or he thinks he can.

I need to get outside today a lot and go through my thoughts. Maybe digging up the dahlia bulbs, tilling under the garden and sowing a cover crop will help me figure out what I need to do. For me.

Pap,

Two years ago this week, my H contacted his OW via phone and email. He was away from home for a few days, spending time with his mother after a minor stroke. He lied about the extent of contact for the next three months. It was extremely harmful to our recovery. The horror of those months is detailed on our recovery thread, recovery - take two.

Here is what I see in your situation. You have a false recovery and have not followed the plan for recovery after an affair. How does Dr. Harley describe those steps?

1. The first step to recovery is WSes commitment to NC FOR LIFE. In your case, not accomplished.

2. Change in the environment to prevent a rekindling of the affair or another affair with a different person. In your case, not accomplished. Your husband still travels and has all kinds of opportunities to contact OW (2 hour phone call from his hotel) as well as start another affair with someone else.

3. Build a romantic relationship between the two of you. In your case, not accomplished. It is not possible to meet the UA time when one spouse is gone for days or weeks at a time.

Exactly what is so dreamy about the dream job? Is it the money? If so, are you both willing to risk your marriage for money?

I hesitated to comment on this thread because it seems to me when people are so adament about taking shortcuts in the MB program, there is a poor outcome.

AM

We're nearly a year from D-Day and had the usual roller coaster recovery. It's getting better. There were a couple of "minor" lapses in FWH's EPs. He used a term of endearment a couple of months ago with a coworker that threw me into the down cycle of the roller coaster. I was looking at plane tickets out of here; the effect on me was that bad. I was concerned that his loose boundaries with women were such a bad habit that he couldn't possibly follow through for the rest of our lives. So we tightened up the EPs. I had wondered at the time, too, at what point does the BS say "enough trying."

Personally, if my H were to follow through with contact with his OW, I don't believe I could tolerate that. I would probably go into an immediate Plan B and let him do his darnedest to win me back...from a long distance. It was just too traumatic to go through one D-Day.

When I asked my H if he harbored any fond thoughts of his OW, he emphatically replied that he wished he'd never met her. Her first marriage ended with her H's infidelity, the 2nd with her H's alcoholism. He said that after seeing the pain inflicted by infidelity, he didn't see what there was to admire and love about a woman who would turn around and do that to someone else.

But nevertheless, we keep a tight rein on the EPs, because infidelity is an addiction, and I don't trust that the old feelings of thrills wouldn't return to my H if NC was broken by either. I just know I would not choose to live through it again. I want my man all the way in or not at all.

Hi there,

Take some time to think about this, I think a better plan has to be put into place for your marriage to feel safe..........
The hanging on to feelings for the OW is not helping him reconnect with you, he has to learn to let go of that fantasy if he wants to have a great marriage, you feel it, it makes you feel badly........
Your plan A and engaging in a sex life with him is okay, you are doing what you need to do to save the marriage you want......
Do you think you could get him to discuss those feelings with Dr. Harley, let someone else help you to get your husband to realize the damage of his attitude is hurting your marriage.....
The OW can't be in your husband's life at all, if he can't do that maybe he needs to feel like what his life would be if he lost what he is used to.......maybe some just compensations need to be put in place for you and to let him understand he needs to make amends for his actions and thoughts.......
Just keep plugging away trying to fill the holes of your relationship eventually he should see that the OW isn't what he thinks she is and that she has no value in his life.......
The more he falls in love with you the less he will think of her........
I know how that feels I hate the fact that my husband thought his OW was a good person, he doesn't feel that way now, he sees her as someone who lied and slept with someone else's husband.......even though that is what he did......it is painful for him to admit it was him that could do that awful thing , they have to understand that they are that person that hurts others for their own selfishness.......your husband will see it for what it was eventually as well.
Justification and entitlement and fantasy clouds their minds for a while to the point of stupidity ...........
He is with you, if he really wanted to be with her he would be.......
you are the reason don't forget that

PAP:

I'm so sorry that your FWH still doesn't get it.

POSOW is not an "old friend." She is a former affair partner INTENT on ruining your marriage.

Ask FWH to see her as YOU see her: an invader, armed to teeth, ready to destroy.

And you wrote that she is a miserable person. Why does he have any empathy for her?

Tell him to put on his big boy pants and scrape this barnacle off the hull of your marriage. There is NO PLACE for her.

And if he doesn't think he's man enough to push her away, tell him this: Lying and cheating means you likely will lose people in your life. My FWH and I no longer see his brother and sister-in-law (people we adored) because of affairs my FWH and brother conducted on a golf trip together. FWH and his brother ruined this part of our family life, likely forever.

So, an "old" friend? Who is a horrible person and threat to my marriage. Never!

Get him to Dr. Harvey. Pronto!

Oh, dear.

In my opinion, you should have called his bluff because that's what it was--an attempt to make you back down or feel guilty.


Try that question with him again, but this time your response should be for him to leave.


I'm not buying it. Well, yes I am. He wants to do whatever the hell he wants without regard for the effects his actions have on others. No consequences seems to be the motto here and this will not go away if he's giving these halfway answers about having feelings for OW.

I'd tell him to knock it off and cut the crap. He knew damn well what he was doing when he spoke to her for two hours. Give me a break! That's the kind of crud you'd hear from a lying toddler or teenager, not a grown man. He's either in or he's out and, until he mans up and decides, he can just leave the house and file for a divorce. Fortunately for you, your children are older and can be valuable allies here.

I'd seriously call him on the carpet here and DEMAND that he make a decision (this instant) about what he's going to do. Really, you've got to be fed up with this crap by now?

It just doesn't sound like he hit rock-bottom hard enough the first time. A second round (Plan B) seems to be in order if he waffles on deciding, and I suspect he'll get with the program fairly quickly once he realizes that he's about to lose everything.

Oh- and I'd make it a condition that he no longer have a cell phone at all. We all did just fine for many centuries without them and he can, too.

GloveOil you are spot on - as usual. You've hit our particular issue square on and your entire post resonates with me. You nailed it. I unfortunately didn't read it until now, but know that I appreciate the insight.

I think it's so easy for some of you to "judge" me and my relationship and my approaches - and I've learned a lot and swallowed some humble pie here just to post. Do I believe in MB principles - yes. Do I think there is a tiny bit of wiggle room in some of them - yes. I think all situations are different, especially when it comes to some of the needs that are outside of the relationship.

Is it independent behavior just to want to do for a living what you've always dreamed of? Is it an LB if by doing this he is getting my EN of FS well taken care of and I have something to be very proud of him for - meeting his admiration need? Have you, or are you, living with someone who is miserable because of where he works or what he does? I can tell you that what we receive in our relationship based on his being happy with his employment is a tremendous gift. One I will not lose on a whim to take what is an outstanding relationship and try to make it exemplary. We've lived the hell of him not being happy in his job and it isn't pretty.

Also, something that I have come to realize today as I took in some fresh air is that I believe he was totally and completely honest with me about all of his emotional feelings this morning for the first time in 27 years. After doing all of our MB homework over this past year, we know that one of the absolutely ingrained habits we both have is being dishonest. He is hands down a protective and and avoid-trouble liar. It was the dishonesty inventory that was the most difficult for both of us to swallow and discuss. I had been waiting for the moment for there to be something to be RH about - especially dealing with his emotions - and make it count. He actually passed that test with me this morning by admitting to me that he still has feelings for her and that he would help her if she showed up - it was the way he said it and the way we talked about it. He was completely an open book to me at that point in time and I don't remember ever feeling that before.

So - is our relationship perfect? No, far from it. Does he know now, in no uncertain terms that he only has one life left in this marriage game and once he loses it he's "game over"? ABSOLUTELY. (We have about 20 emails and a 60 min phone conversation at lunch from today that state that). Am I going to punish him for telling me the truth? That is the bigger question with me right now. We have worked long and hard through all of the worksheets, workbooks, etc and there is still so much to learn.

Did he mess up big time? Yes. He has some serious work left to do. In my book #1 is being radically honest with himself so he can be radically honest with me. #2 is truly understanding that he must reprogram his memory bank if he wants to be the best spouse he can be. So - the ball is in his court.

I'm tired of being upset about this. He can prove to me that he is worthy of me - and win me back totally and completely. It is his turn to Plan A me and work on his own head.

PaP,

I disagree with your assertion that MB is an "a la carte program". Many attempt short cuts, apply wiggle room to their and their's alone "unique" situation. I have been reading here since April 2008 and deviating from the MB principles nearly always has a negative outcome.

When it is pointed out, some people think it is a "judgement" against them because they want to do whatever they want to do. These same people eventually wonder why MB does not work in recovering their marriage.

A false recovery is so much worse than initial discovery. Sorry to have wasted yours and my time with my experience.

AM

Was the last 18 months a sham??

I think the above quote pretty well sums it all up!

He's not willing to protect you and the marriage!
He's full of crap and is still working hard to gaslight you...


One word!









Polygraph!

The biggest alarm here is that he has not really given you anything approaching a sane response to why he talked to her for two hours.

I think he's given you his answer about his commitment to the marriage.

I can understand why that answer would be impossibly difficult to hear.

Bottom line - he has stepped all over you and the consequences are....crickets.

Yes, and the problem here pAp, is not that folks here are judging you, but rather that your WH's actions have red flags dancing in unison. And, people here see it with 20/20 vision.

-He's still fogged with "knight in shining armour" thought-process.
-He still does not see OW as a preditor (rather, the opposite).
-He still wants to protect her (and himself) more than he does you (a tough one to swallow, but it's the reality).

Yes, RH is great and required, but what's more important right NOW are the steps HE suggests and is willing to take to prevent contact again so as to make you feel safe.

As Kerala said, what on earth did they talk about for 2 hours??
Ahhh, but we know. The dreaded "closure talk". You know what that is, actually? Queue up Whitney's "I Will Always Love You". That's what it is. And, what that says to OW is "I will keep you in my mind and heart, cuz as soon as my BW slips up , I know I have you to run to". And, now OW knows that, too.

How very romantic.

Do you really think that 2 hour call was much different that what I've described?

It's not judgment, but caution and warning...

PAP, I have been here for 10 years now, have a fully recovered marriage, have gone through the MB program, read every book and listened to hundreds of hours of the radio show. I have seen so many successes and so many failures in my time on this board. But one thing is for sure about these principles: there is no wiggle room. Situations are different, yes, but what it takes to recover a marriage IS NOT. No wiggle room. A very specific path.

My H and I have experienced what happens with a traveling job, and the emotional detachment was immediately obvious. And immediately detrimental to our marriage. And this is in a fully recovered marriage. This is why the divorce rate in these kinds of marriages is epidemic. With traveling jobs comes an emotional detachment that makes your H vulnerable to an affair. Harley calls them an "invitation to an affair." I don't know how you can affair proof your marriage and restore the romantic love in your marriage with him traveling. I simply don't. And neither does Dr Harley.

So, if you have found some wiggle room I would like to know about it. [so would the US Military who is working with Dr Harley on this very issue] But the first thing I would be asking is: how is your marriage? Has wiggling worked for you? It's one thing to say you have found a better way, but that always begs the question: has it worked for you?

Many of the people posting on your thread are in fully recovered marriages, Pap. We have been through Harley's course and we know the difference between a false recovery and the real thing. We don't tell you this to be judgmental, but because we CARE.

here

Pap, but that is a false dichotomy. There are jobs where he could be just as happy where he doesn't have to travel. And it could be a job that facilitates the romantic love in your marriage. A traveling job doesn't do that. He could find a job he loves, that pays well that would complement his marriage instead of harming it. Meeting your need of FS will not create romantic love because it is not an intimate emotional need. If his "dream" is a traveling job that makes it impossible to fall in love, then that job could be your worst nightmare.

I know you don't want to consider alternatives, but I am very concerned that you are headed to a bad place because he travels.

I hope I am explaining the reason clearly enough. In recovery from an affair, it is critical to restore the marriage to a better place than it was before by creating romantic love. In order to do that, you must be meeting intimate emotional needs on a daily basis. You can't do that if you are sleeping apart and not together every day. Traveling jobs create a sense of detachment and a feeling of independence from each other. That is why they are called "invitations to affairs." Not only does one feel detached but when they feel that way, there is ample opportunity to act upon it.

No amount of FS or admiration will make up for that, because don't fall in love over those EN's.

You are all correct in your positions. We are in discussion about the travel card. (He just canceled his next trip...) I still think a day or 2 here and there is ok because it isn't much different than the hours he works sometimes. Just him working, or talking on the phone while he is at work could be considered a trigger for me (it was this morning when his line was busy when I called...) His EA took place at work - long distance EA - and like GloveOil, he came home most nights and thought he could cake eat like that forever. The long trips do need to stop - or I need to go with him.

ArmyMama - You didn't waste your time. I appreciate your input. I appreciate what you all are saying and that you are trying to help me. I really do. And I've seen lots of others on these forums who are severely cherry picking and not doing their homework and it's frustrating to me as well. Melody - I've watched you help so many... the list goes on... (Melody - "Misplaced compassion gives power to evil..." wow... might have to put that one on the fridge...)

He is back in a fog. I guess I only thought that the last year was pretty damn perfect between us. Actually, it was pretty perfect, until...

I can fully see that when I look back and analyze what we did between the time that she reached out with that email and the time he ended up making the phone call that I was WRONG in approaching the email with "ignore". I was saying ignore the email. Ignore her. BUT what we failed to ignore that it was a hit of crack for him and he didn't have a plan in place that allowed him to immediately shut down the feelings that came from that hit. Delete the email and move on - but the brain liked the attention... It got his mind to places where it shouldn't have been. The weekend before he left on the trip when he made "the call" we had some "bad" UA time with me triggering and angry because I felt his distance. So - then he goes on the trip and is away, sleep deprived and he thinks about that email... BAM.

So - I guess I answered my own question from before. Is this all THAT fragile? The answer is "yes". It is all that fragile. That some LB's - right or wrong - followed by some withdrawal time can and will undo months and months of hard work.

What I learned from this is pretty powerful, but stinks. Yes, even if you feel like you are 95% recovered (June 2010 to Sept 2011 was the best our marriage has ever been), you can go back to 0% with one slip of the program.

I have another question for you guys -

First, I have read over and over the managing memories thread many times. I'm heading there to run through it again and cut and paste/print some things for us to work on this weekend. (This really is a full time job, isn't it???)

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2243454&page=10

I have to find a way to make sure I can really work this with WH and get him on board to go from caring to not caring - or rather not caring for her because he needs to care for me. Or short circuiting his brain. I know this is something so many of us have dealt with, but I do also believe that there will always be some sort of LB$ in his account because she was his relationship through high school and the first part of college - until she broke off their engagement. I do know, since I was his friend in college at that time - (and no, not an EA friend - well at THAT particular time...) that she hurt him badly back then. But during their EA I think in addition to rewriting our history to be "bad" he also rewrote some of their history back then to be more wonderful.

So... Can you point me to a thread or answer for me how people deal with an exwife or exhusband who reappears after many years and starts reminiscing and, well, since they have a history they are off and running in an EA within minutes?... I know in this case it's a bit different (they didn't get married), but I'm looking for some of the psychology of dealing with a long ago long term relationship that comes with all the baggage from the past. Some of which they have pulled out, washed and put away very neatly and pretty in their W minds.

I know that THAT is what he doesn't want to give up. He feels like giving that up is erasing those years from his life. Years that I wasn't in the picture at all and he was devoted to her. I say "tough luck - you made that bed", but how do I help him do this?

I'm not sure this is something you can really do for him because he has to change himself. He has to have a nice incentive to change. Make sense?

I know I couldn't educate my FWW at the time, and I haven't seen any others that can get through the fog UNTIL that wayward hits bottom and realizes that they have to do something to avoid something bad happening--loss of family, etc.


I favor a hardline approach with it, but think your "tough luck" stance is appropriate.

He's a grown man and I wouldn't cater to him like I would a child. He has to make a choice and I think the only thing you *can* do is show him what the consequences will be from your end when you get fed up with his back-and-forth stance.

This doesn't have to be your "normal".

Are you at a point where you're ok with not being married at all costs? That's not saying you're glad to divorce, but that you know that you did all that you could and refuse to live under those conditions. When you can honestly relay that fact to him, and are willing to follow-up with it, then I suspect you'll see a big change with him.