Well, I did it. WW was served with divorce papers.

This is a brief recap of the last 21 months of hell I call my life:

June '08 I found out wife was involved with OM. She denied PA but admitted to falling in love with him. Evidence points to a PA.

She filed for D. After 6 weeks I convinced her to drop and work on us. I missed her EN's for years but learned and we were doing really good after 5 months.

Feb '09 she started up daily conversations with a friend of mine on good ol Facebook. OM #2 After a month, she drove an hour to meet him for lunch where he asked her to have a PA with him. He is married. She never mentioned she was in contact with him, hid the chats, e-mails and never told me about the lunch. I had EP's in place and knew everything. I confronted her. She cried, begged me not to divorce her, etc, etc. After an hour, she was able to spin things in her mind and I was the bad guy.

I kept on trying to forgive, forget and recover.

April '09 she is using Facebook to keep track of OM #1's live. I caught her and called her on that.

June '09 we have a fight and she finds a previous high school sweetheart on...... you guessed it....Facebook. OM #3...They chat it up all hot and steamy. Then she bought a Tracphone so she can call him without it showing up on the bill. We agreed to work on us. She told me she threw the phone away.

I kept on trying to forgive, forget and recover.

November '09 things just didn't seem right. She'd say she was doing one thing but the times she'd leave and get home just didn't match. I did what I had to do and found out she was still calling the high school sweetheart. She begged, cried again for me not to divorce her. Of course, once she was able to spin this in her mind, I am the bad guy.

Since November, I have been on the receiving end of the silent treatment. This has been her M.O. for years. I continued to see an MC who basically said divorce her. She has issues. Our problem is NOT our marriage. We work great together with kids, chores, finances and so on. The issue is her.

Her parents divorced when she was young. Her father got custody. After 8th grade, her father could not handle her and gave her to her mother. After a few years, her mother could not handle her and she moved in with her boyfriend parents. Her boyfriend was away at college. While he was away, he knocked up another girl! (by the way, this guy is OM #3).

According to the therapist, she has fears of intimacy and low self-esteem. When we started getting close and things were getting good, she was doing things to make it fail. Self destructive behavior. This was subconciously but it really makes sense.

I am posting this for others out there to know that even if you do everything right, recovery may be beyond your control. I cannot change her with threats or demands. I changed myself.

Sorry you are here. Sorry your WW is/was a serial cheater.

How are you doing?

Why did you "serve" her? Couldn't she just pick up paperwork? Or have it sent to her atty's office?

Or was that a figure of speach?

Good Luck to you.

She is not a cheater in a sense that she it out trolling for men or sleeping around. From what I have read here, on psychology sites, heard from the therapist and knowing her, the fear of intimacy and self esteem diagnosis fits her exactly. It is as if it was written based on someone watching her life. However, her not willing to go to therapy coupled with behavior that is unacceptable to me left me no other choice. I am VERY hurt that it has come to this. Actually, I am a train wreck... I love her dearly and I really wish she would have tried to make it work.

In my state, a court marshal has to serve divorce papers. She had not yet retained an attorney so my only option is to have them hand delivered to her.

CJ, are you really done with her or are you kinda hoping that the impending D will scare her into getting herself fixed? Do you have conditions that need to be met in order for you to want to stop the D, or are you done under any circumstance? The fact that you state you still love her makes me wonder. No wrong answer on that.

CJ, I have some sense of what you've been through, although not to the same level or degree. I feel for you, man. I really do!

I too, am on the D track with my personality disordered (PD) wife. Yes, I've received assurances and virtual confirmation from professionals (as well as they can without a clinical diagnosis) that she is so "afflicted." Mine just cannot stay married for longer than six and one-half years, it seems. At that point, the "Seven Year Itch" sets in and she finds cause and reason to leave.

With me, it was finding another woman's husband. Oh sure, he and OMW were separated, but from what I've learned, any divorce he gets will be very damaging to him. So it's likely my wife will continue to be the OW, or they'll part and she'll find new prey.

The title of your thread says it all. It's only been five months for me since D-day, but I have gone from the try-to-fix-the-marriage track to the get-her-out-of-your-life-as-soon-as-possible track in a very short time.

But make no mistake, this is emotionally traumatic and shatters the dreams I had of a life-long love and partners together to the grave. Thank God I found this site. While I couldn't save my marriage (and many told me they thought it shouldn't be saved), the support I have received here has made going through this time a whole lot easier.

I do see light at the end of the tunnel. It's still early for me, of course, but I have come to realize that my life will be better for it in the long run. Getting to there is the hard work.

<quote>CJ, are you really done with her or are you kinda hoping that the impending D will scare her into getting herself fixed? Do you have conditions that need to be met in order for you to want to stop the D, or are you done under any circumstance? The fact that you state you still love her makes me wonder. No wrong answer on that.</quote>

dkd:

I would love nothing more than for her to snap out of her current state, initiate therapy and save our marriage. BUT, after what I have gone through, I am not about to sit around, wasting my years, hoping for a miracle. I do love her but I have also been hurt by her.

I have not told her this for a few reasons. First, according to her, I am controlling. She would twist it in her mind so that I am threatening her unless she does something. That would reinforce her belief that I am controlling and make her want out more. Second, she is not speaking to me. She just walks around the house, miserable. I refuse to get pulled down and I will not treat her the same way. If she talks to me, I am positive and upbeat. If she is being nasty, I ignore her. I will not do anything that will allow her to justify (in her mind) that getting out of this marriage is the right thing to do.

Fred:

I read your post before I started this thread and thought that your story sounded a lot like mine.

I know that change is possible because I changed. I did not meet her needs for a long time. Looking back, I can see where she tried to change me and nothing worked. When I found out about OM #1 and she filed for D, that woke me up. I learned about women, needs, how to be a partner and how to put her first in my life. I did that and I was never happier in my life. As we got closer and happier, that's when she started her unacceptable activities.

I will be willing to recover until the D is final. I still hope for the best but I am preparing for the worst. In the end, I know that I am a better person and that I did everything within my control to save my marriage... this is on her!

I'm confused. You said that you served her divorce papers, but you do not think getting out of the marriage is the right thing to do? Are you saying that you are justified, but she is not? In the end though, does it really matter if it's the right thing to do? I'm divorced, and I honestly have no comfort at all from thinking I did the right thing.

I think you should communicate to your wife what it would take for the marriage to work in your eyes. Wouldn't you want that from her if the situation was reversed? Besides that, how can your hope of reconciling your marriage come true if she doesn't know how. That said, I understand completely about feeling that she'd only see it as manipulation. My ex would see it similarly, as I was judgemental and manipulative too. I think you can communicate your needs as just that...your needs. Not what she's doing wrong or what she needs to do. You need to have a wife that does not have EAs or PAs with other men. It hurts tremendously when you have a wife that isn't faithful. Perhaps leave it up to her to digest that and figure out what she wants to do if anything about that.

So do tell her how you feel and what you need, but do not tell her what's wrong and what's right, or how she needs to fix things, IMO.

I am not saying it is not the right thing to do. I set boundaries, she crossed them over and over. Because she is not willing to work on her issues, I am left with two choices... remain married to a woman who has continually hurt me OR divorce her. My preference is that she address her issues but that is not an option that I can decide. That is choice number three but I can only pick one or two.

So if this divorce goes through, do I want her remembering me as a jerk or as someone who, despite a bad situation, remained civil and respectful? I prefer the second. Maybe someday, 5 or 6 years from now, she will be going through her second divorce and she will remember just how great a guy I was to her. Whether she sees it or not, these issues are going to follow her, not go away.

CJ

I understand your situation. An unrepentant WW is hell waiting to go there. And your attitude of being a gentleman is the right one.

Your wife needs help. You cannot help her partially because no man is a prophet in his own home. Women think they know more about relationships than they really do. She seems like the druggie or drunk who has to hit bottom before they start looking in the mirror for the source of their problems.

All the best.

Larry

Women think they know more about relationships than they really do. that's very sexist generalization.

reading CJs post, my WH/STBX is doing similar, stopped going to therapy due to not wanting to deal with his issues but because I continue, I am the one with psychological issues. I am the one that is controlling him-yet I keep contact to minimum with him. If it doesn't involve child or divorce/I don't want to discuss with him-he's in relationship with OW and yet I must be dating someone also. He's projecting his issues and I have to bide my time and bite my tongue until divorce is final.

9370

Thank you for noticing

And you are absolutely correct. So am I, with exceptions to prove the rule.


And I say it because; most guys think women are better at relationships than guys. And they're wrong. Neither gender has a monopoly on stupid when it comes to relationships.

Larry

well I just had an interesting conversation with STBX-we were discussing a mutual friend when he all of sudden stated he is no longer involved with OW. Have heard that before, so I know that could change-but I asked why, he said they had a disagreement and I pressed further but he wouldn't say why/what about. Then he stated "I just want you to be happy even if it's with someone else" The aduacity/nerve to tell me that when he has spent the last 2 years telling me that I am a bad parent, psychological and oh yeah sexually repressed! Damn right I will find someone to make me happy because I deserve to be treated way better than what I have put up with these last 7 years. I will definitely spend time trying to figure out what I want and need BC I sure know now what I don't need or want to repeat ever again, if I can possibly help it at all.

I got the "you deserve better" speech, also.

After stating that he stayed in our marriage because of "commitment" for 33 years, he now tells me, post DDay that his job is to "make it possible for someone to love you."

Guess he never understood during those years HIS job was to love me!

Vacillates to the convenience of changing "feelings".

I'm sorry to hear about everything that you've gone through Jim.

I am a fWW, but even I had the decency to stop the affairs at discovery.

In my humble opinion, your wife has a deep seeded fear of being alone. She continues these affairs, searching for a suitable replacement for you so that she can let you go eventually. It seems to have taken her awhile with no good luck.

Don't worry, things can only get better from here and you did the right thing to stop someone from continuing to abuse you.

hamster -

I don't think she was really "searching" for a replacement. I think she was making back up plans so that WHEN our marriage failed, she would have a fall back. I say WHEN because, according to the therapist, given her past, she expected it to fail. All other relationship in her life have failed so she was expecting ours to fail. I cannot count the number of times she asked why I stay with her and she told me that everyone else in her life left her.

It is sad because after OM #1, I forgave and forgot and we were doing good.... I mean really good. Her words were "fairy tale" life. I made her happier than she ever was. Given her past experiences, the happier she was, the harder she was going to fall. As I said, she expected it to fail and, on some subconcious level, probably sabatoged it.

Not helping our situation is her new best friend, who is a woman with a type "A" personality and is going through a divorce too.

I truly think divorce as a kid has a huge effect on how you view relationships when you get older. My exMIL and exFIL have each been married 3x's each, and her maternal grandmother has been married 5x's. She's never been exposed to adults who work through the valley's of life - they divorce instead.

In the year or so before D-Day, we were both really stressed out over life in general. As she started spending time with OM (a relative), I started to withdraw from her and it was a quick downward spiral from there. Instead of facing the problems head on, she ran from them.

WW is rearranging the closets. She has been sleeping in the spare bedroom now she is moving all of her clothing there. I asked her why and she replied she may as well "since your divorcing me". I thought the phrasing was interesting. I did in fact file for D but she didn't say "since we're getting divorced". I am guessing that putting it that way somehow allows her, in her mind, to take the responsibilities off of herself.... like the 3 OM had nothing to do with my filing.

You cannot fix a broken spouse

Make it a mantra... it is mine.

Not any more sexist than things like:

Women care more about relationships that men.
Women are more faithful than men.

Both of which, from what we can see here are untrue. After all if a man is having an affair, is he having it with another man, or with a woman? With only a few exceptions, it's with a woman. So her participation in the affair proves that she is no more faithful to what marriage means than the man is. It also demonstrates she has ZERO regard for that marital relationship.

I agree, it's time for the gender based stereotypes to end. How about we start with all the stereotypes that claim women are better, more faithful, better spouses, etc.

It's insulting to men, and frankly, the more I read here, the more I'm convinced that most are simply untrue.

Bad character is equally represented by both genders. Neither men, nor women can claim some sort of moral high ground.

LOL, I like your approach even better than what I just wrote. Neither gender has a monopoly on stupid...

Perhaps someone who has been through D can offer me some insight. My future ex seems to have totally lost her mind. I had her served 3/5/10. Some days things are very civil. Other days she just HATES me. I mean HATES!! One simple question I ask her and she snaps and gets soooo snotty with me. SHE is the one with 3 OM! WTF?!? I know it's all part of the fog but it is laughable. I mean, if she could just see how crazy all this is. All she had to do was go to marriage counseling.

Amen, brother!

The only thing that I still think about is the complete craziness. I don't want to recover the marriage, I don't want to talk/see/hear her again, I don't want to have anything to do with her disordered children, and I don't want to delude myself into thinking that this was all a dream.

I confess that when I do have thoughts of her, they are invariably followed by the sheer insanity of the situation. As a recovered alcoholic, it's very much like thinking of drinking -- any thought of drinking is immediately followed by the realization how crazy that thought is.

The only hope I entertain is that someday she has a moment of clarity and sees how hurtful, deceitful and dishonest her life has been. I'm not holding my breath.

She was served and the answer date passed a week ago. She has still not responded. My attorney called today and asked what was going on. About two weeks ago I made the future ex an offer. She said she would think about it.

When I first served her I did hope it would be a bit of a wake up call and maybe open her eyes as to how insane her activities have been. It didn't and she only moved her belongings into a spare bedroom, stopped wearing her wedding ring and has been staying away from the house. Now, I cannot think of a single thing that would make me want to save my marriage.

It is nearly universal for WSs (esp. WWs) to accuse/believe that their BS is "controlling", "smothering", "dominating" or any such term. My WW complained about me being "controlling" too, even going so far as to state that I 'locked her in the house' (obviously if that had been the case, she wouldn't have been able to screw around with her OM all over town like she was doing. She also said "you are so judgmental!� when I confronted her with the obvious impropriety of being a married woman who was affairing with a married man). These phony and exaggerated allegations are as common in adultery as stars are in the clear night sky.

It all stems from the psychology of the cheater. The WS wants the �freedom� to indulge their adultery and naturally sees their marriage/BS as an obstacle (those darn faithful spouses actually expect their mate to honor their vows and values�how dare they expect so much!). The inevitable extension of the WS�s resentment is to claim that they are merely liberating themselves from another�s �control�.

It is comical. I am a controlling person and she has lived in hell for 18 years according to her. What I find really interesting is that she will not speak to me. The ice cold nastiness reminds me of someone... her mother. Her parents were divorced at a young age. While I do not know the details, I believe her mother cheated. At our wedding, both of her parents were there and I seem to remember her mother treating her father the same way. He has been remarried for over 30 years with two more kids. Her mother, however, married two more times, had many failed relationships in between and STD or two.

Mom is still nuts and I think recognizing this helped me make my decision to file for D. She is starting to act like her mother acted 20+ year ago. I seem to remember a saying about an apple falling from a tree. In my case, I think it is more like a nut falling from a tree.

Jim,

I haven't read all your posts but my instinct is

Run do not walk to the closest EXIT !!!!

CJ...

The reactions are to be expected. Despite everything SHE has done, she now perceives YOU as directly and distinctly hurting her. By filing for divorce, YOU have hurt her tremendously and THAT is a fact, no matter who does it. No matter what she has done to you... YOU REALLY DID HURT HER WHEN YOU FILED.

That is OK, because the situation calls for it. But you have to remember that her pain is a direct result of YOU filing. It isn't craziness in reality, anymore than crying out because you have surgery without anesthesia. It is to be expected. Even the most wayward of spouse will still feel the pain of someone they DO CARE ABOUT, on some level, probably higher than is felt by the betrayed spouse. The WS still loves the other person, and doesn't see their betrayal as really changing that fact.

So... yes it SOUNDS crazy... and APPEARS crazy from our standpoint. But to them, it is perfectly reasonable. YOU hurt her, no matter if it is just self preservation or whatever, you still hurt her. She isn't going to want to talk with you like you are 'buddies'. She is feeling the pain of loss, and rationalization about WHY you filed really doesn't make it better... or perhaps even makes it worse because she can see that it is her behavior which is causing it to occur.

During this whole process just remember, it isn't what YOU think is going on, that she is reacting to. It is what SHE thinks which drives her actions. My wife thinks that I don't like her, because I write my true feelings on this board for 'the whole world to see'. She feels as though I am pointing her out in a crowd and everyone is jeering. She thinks I have people 'thinking things which aren't true'. However, she doesn't say anything I write is false. It is simply a reaction and their view based upon who they are inside. They grab ahold of one tiny detail and hold on, justifying their actions in their own minds.

There is nothing you can do... you said it yourself...

YOU CANNOT FIX A BROKEN SPOUSE

Your wife sounds exactly like mine however. You might want to read "Stop Walking on Eggshells; Taking your life back when someone you care about has BPD" It really opened up my eyes as to some of the behaviors of my wife and the sadness of it all. I feel the same as you, I would love for her to 'snap out of it' and realize what is happening. But throughout our marriage, I have been the ONLY person to try to make up after an issue.

I told myself that I would NOT take her back unless she decided to work on herself first. I have day-dreamed that she would want to stop the divorce (she filed) and work on us. That I would say, "I love you but I will not stop the divorce, although I won't push it. If you want to be married, then you need to choose to work on yourself. If you want to be married and rebuild our family, I need for you to make choices in whatever way, to be the person you really are, the person you believe yourself to be. Go to counseling and figure that out. If you need my help, I will help in counseling. THEN we can decide whether the people we really are and want to be are the people each of us wants to be with." But I am not holding my breath, because the simple fact that I would say that would cause her to retaliate with her in her current state. It is just so sad... but over the course of 4 years, I have learned, slowly but I have learned.

Heh... I thought about writing a letter and sending it to her entire family and friends stating as much. THAT would really put a shock into her. For her family to know that I loved her and still wanted the marriage but that it was up to her to decide what was worth what.

Thanks for a helpful post. I spoke with my attorney today. She sort of said what you did.... that even though people know it is coming, it still hurts getting served with divorce papers. I had been hoping that she would snap out of it but we are way beyond that now. I have no interest in saving this.

Late last night I got an e-mail from my attorney. She told me that she spoke with my wifes attorney and was told that he (wifes attorney) wants to have a sit down with all 4 of us for an amicable settlement. I am hoping my wife told her attorney she'd be willing to accept it. Given my wifes activities and knowing her, she is probably terrified of the details of her activities coming out in open court.

<crossing fingers>

Details rarely come out in Divorce Court. The court isn't worried about finding fault, they are worried about getting through the backlog of cases sitting in the queue.

Infidelity is rarely an issue and won't be heard in most courts, depending upon your state, ie no fault, etc. It is simply a non-issue to them so they won't allow testimony unless it directly impacts division of property. And that is pretty difficult to prove in a reasonable way. Most courts basically see divorce as a job. Their job is to split up the property, ensure children are cared for, and ensure child support is set. Otherwise, they would rather not have you in court at all.

I know that the issues you speak of are HUGE to you and your family... but they are meaningless in most regards, when it comes to the law and splitting up your things. Keep that in mind and talk with your attorney before you meet with her. Because if you think you are going in from a place of strength because of certain 'life' things, you might not negotiate in your REAL best interests, which is probably NOT to go to court at all.

IMO

I spoke with an atty. he said CLEARLY (when I was giving my "details"). He held his hands up and stopped me.
He said;
"Let me say this loud and clear. Do you really want to tell your story? Well, if you do, it will have to go to trial and it will cost you at least 3 times as much (he guarenteed it). Do you really want to tell your story that bad?"

Nobody really cares about cheating, lying or moral behavior anymore. These people hear this type of stuff every day, 8 hrs a day. To you it is terrible, to them...nothing.

Her atty has told her the same thing.

Egg-Zack-Lee!

My attorney told me almost the same thing, verbatim.

Oh, she would be more than happy to take my money if I wanted to pursue a "vengeful" divorce. But for what? WW has no assets. OM isn't going to be destroyed. What would be served except to spend hours and money getting what I can get through the "no-fault" route.

Sad, but those are the depths to which our society has sunk these days.

I am very aware that, sadly, courts do not take cheating into concideration. It takes two people to make a marriage but it only takes one to ruin it.

CJ...

My first wife had 4 affairs going AT THE SAME TIME when she left. When she left, she fell completely off the cliff. I had all sorts of information/proof, and I wanted.... OH HOW I WANTED to use it. But I just thought about my kids. EVERYTHING I DID I ran through my 'BOYS' filter. If it benefited them, then I did it. IF it HARMED them in any way, I DIDN'T DO IT!

It saved me... truthfully, it did. In alot of ways, I am glad that there wasn't a possibility for it to be used, because I would have gone down a different path and wouldn't be any better off for it. The pain is real and the desire to INFLICT pain is VERY REAL. However, you won't be better off because of it. I should have exposed to her family... that is one thing I would have done differently, but I wouldn't have used it in the divorce itself.

I do wish that it would affect custody and splitting of property, but then again, it might not have been good for my boys, so it ultimately wouldn't have been good for me.

My reoommendation is NOT to try to find justice in this mess. You simply will not find it, but can spend hours upon hours of self-righteously indulgent time seeking and justifying it to yourself, and unfortunately those who are willing to listen. I hated this mess while I went through it. I hate it now going through a milder form at this time as well. However, having done it before, I realize the things which allowed me to come out the other side in a better place.

In 2 years, you won't look back and think, "Man I am glad I got to show the world just what a 'b*tch' she really is" You will be thinking, "Man... I am glad that I got through that alive."

It is up to YOU to decide whether you will also be able to say "I got through that and can still look myself in the mirror."

Don't lay down... I did that and it didn't get me anything more than less money and more bills. It really didn't help any situation at all. But... not pushing the unpushable... that was a brilliant stroke of luck and advice.

One piece of advice I received which I was always thankful for and I truly put into practice.

EXPECT THE WORST ALL THE TIME. THEN WHEN IT HAPPENS, IT WILL NOT BE A SURPRISE, AND WHEN IT DOESN'T IT WILL BE A BLESSING.

This is so true, esp. in 'no-fault' states. It really has no impact on the division of property unless you had provision for such in a valid pre-nup (which most do not). Even then, the court must find it reasonable--the court will not sanction any provision that leaves a WW destitute just because she cheated.

I know of only two potential scenarios in which marital infidelity MAY be admissible and have some impact. [Disclaimer: I am not an attorney. I know this from attorneys I have spoken with and the rules vary between states.]

1. It may impact child custody arrangements in extreme cases (if the cohabitating affair-partner has been abusive or criminal). Obviously, this requires some pretty compelling evidence.

2. It may impact spousal-support. If the WS is living with the affair-partner, it can lessen or even invalidate their claim for SS, esp. if the WS will receive substantial assets anyway from the divorce and has the ability to earn their own living (i.e didn�t �give up their career� to be a stay-at-home-mom) during the marriage.

Jim,

This stuff is standard fare. The WS will blame you for everything (�you made me this way!� � yes, I actually heard that one). The �ice-cold nastiness� stems not only from her scapegoating/demonization of you but also from the fact, as mentioned by others here, that the WS desperately does not really want you to think too ill of them nor do they want others to (such as the family and friends you shared). It is crazy, I agree...I got it all. I wondered "why do you care about what the people you have tossed away really think?"

It is almost as though they think they can hurt you all they want (which they feel you deserve and brought on yourself anyway), but DON�T YOU DARE THINK OR SAY ANYTHING BAD about them. Sometimes they will threaten you with nasty letters from their attorney. Sometimes they will try to couch it as �let�s just be amicable, ok?� Sometimes, they will try to sweet-talk you into �being friends afterwards� with them. Sometimes they will later try to suck-up a bit by coyly asking about �how is XXXX doing?� in reference to friends and family they miss. I got all that too.

I was taken in a bit by this stuff until I wised-up and saw it for what it was�self-serving manipulation and cake-eating. The best thing to do is to get her completely out of your life as fast as you can and keep her there. She is massively broken and doesn�t want to get herself �unbroken�.

Well put, SDCW_man. So well put that it deserves to be highlighted:

She is massively broken and doesn�t want to get herself �unbroken�.

I have been having highs and lows and I have finally put my finger on why.

Two years ago, she filed for D after I found out about OM #1. I fought like crazy to save my marriage. Went to counseling even when she refused. I met her needs, I worked hard and I pulled her back. We were doing great!

Now, two years and two OM's later, I filed for D. Rather than fighting to save it, she just rolled over, turned nasty, took off her wedding ring, started hanging out with a now divorced friend, going to bars and so on. I was just having trouble accepting that someone would not even fight to save a 21 year relationship. Shes nuts.

No... she is merely willing to let you meet her needs as long and as much as possible. The marriage did NOT mean the same to HER as it did to you.

That is unfortunately often the case. This is the saddest truth we often find in marriage. That one person can be married to someone who has such a different view on what is common to both, ie the marriage and what it means.

You are internalizing this pretty hard CJ... I know it is tough.

I want you to think about something I am seeing... ONLY because I have been there and done the same thing myself.

Do you think you are trying to manipulate her into remaining married? And that when you do certain things, good or bad, that do NOT have the desired outcome, you are feeling let down all over again?

The thought that she didn't want her dirty laundry all over the place, ie amicable sitdown. The thought that you have already done 'everything you could'. She won't even fight for a 21 year marriage. Etc etc etc...

Think deep and hard. Hold it up to a mirror and look at it in the sunlight. In the bottom of your heart, somewhere in a crack, are you really disappointed that all the things you do, do not have the reaction and changes occur in her that you would think it should? Are you trying to or hoping on the outside/inside to 'do' something which will 'open her eyes'?

Think about it... I did it all. Even writing things on this board, knowing she read it and thinking that maybe she would 'understand' where I was coming from and gain insight. KNOWING she read it, and wondering how she could STILL think the way she does. It was all so confusing and dissapointing.

Just think about it for yourself... and your betterment. If you find yourself engaging in these sorts of things, you will realize that you are holding yourself back from improvement and calmness.

Just my observation...

You seem to be thinking about this deeper than I am.

Part of me did hope that she might wake up as a result but I didn't hold out much hope for that. The therapist basically told me she is broken. She has deep seeded issues that go back to her childhood. Her way of dealing with is to cut herself off from the situation and start fresh. Unfortunately for her, she is going to be taking all of this baggage right out the door with her. It will follow her for the rest of her life unless she deals with it.

My prediction is she will be divorced a second time within 5 years. She is needy, she cannot be alone. I fought because there was a lot to fight for. 21 years together, house, kids and so on. I can tell you that chances are she will meet a 40 something divorced guy and date or marry. However, once that person starts to see the real her, he will bail out. With no kids together and little time invested, there will be no reason to fight to make it work.

I can also say that I will not tolerate ANY b.s. from anyone I may date in the future. If I see anyone who is anything like WW, I'll move on.

Your wife sounds so much like my husband. We have been married for 18 years but he had alot of abuse in his past also. The counselor worked with us also trying to improve him and his issues but I see no improvement he just lies to make hisself look like a good guy to everyone.

He even went as far at our counseling session yesterday to lie to our couselor to say everything is great and agree to start church. Then today he packed and left.

I have made countless excuses for him and tried to help him also and I totally agree with you I think some people are just broken.
But, it makes me sad that we have so many years together and our daughter. I would be surprised if he ever maintains a relationship either. I should have been tipped off when I was his only real relationship.

so sorry to hear this, fw. Are you doing ok?

I am a mess. I don't have a job. And I live in a town where I don't have any family or friends here. We moved here because of his job. I have not slept either. My daughter doesn't want to move but I just don't know what to do. He wants me to make decisions in a week.

Thanks for the concern.

he packed up and left, but now you're the one who has to move? Where can you go (what are your options)?

I don't have to move but, this is a expensive city. He has offered to let me stay here until my daughter finishes graduates then it would be sold. I would get child support plus a small amount of alimony that he has agreed to. But with the way the economy is here I just don't know if I can make it here.

My other option is to move back to where we grew up. My daughter is in the 9th grade will be in 10th now. Things are cheaper there but not as many jobs. But about the same pay with only a high school diploma. But all my family is there. I have no family here.

But, now he talks to me more than when he lived here. I think he is crazy sometimes. I just can't understand they don't want you but they can't leave you alone. It makes things so much harder.

I think this is fairly common. In my case, the constant access and excuses my WH used to try to keep tabs on me was pretty transparant. And I did not reciprocate. Made him nuts, even tho he left me for OW. Because he was also very abusive, I was able to establish a no contact order as well. The fact that he can't access me anymore I know is something he regrets, altho he will never admit it. More importantly, not allowing him access to me was the best thing I could do to heal. He never saw how upset I was and I liked that. He never "knew" what was going on in my life, a life he once controlled. I liked that too. I got to heal on my terms without him as an audience. I rarely responded to his outbursts or any inquiries I deemed unnecessary. If you can at all distance yourself from this man and reduce access to the bare minimum, texts, and emails only if at all possible, I highly recommend it.

Wow this thread is really helping me, I thought I was the only one who protected my WS from himself, I still do this to a point, it's hard to change this perticular behavior. I've been a sucker for every minipulation, the last 8 years. I fall for it, then get frestrated when there's no follow through. I'm really thinking I trully need to just throw in the towel in. I'm very tierd, and I just don't want to do this anymore.