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All, I need some advice. For those of you who don't know my story. My husband came home from a business trip in Nov. and said he was leaving me and wanted a divorce. He said that he'd been unhappy for 2 years (our 4th anniversary was a week after he left). He refused to go to counseling with me and simply said that he didn't love me anymore, it was over. Some days I think there is another women for a couple of reasons, he left his first wife in exactly this same way, because he was attracted to me, and also because he went on this trip with a female employee, and I had no idea he was unhappy for two years, it came completely out of the blue to me, so it seems there must be someone else since he had to get out so quickly, went to a hotel that very same day and we never lived together again. But he swore that there was not, and I have not asked him again since the very beginning. Anyways, he filed for divorce right away, and we agree on the details, custody of our daughter, division of property, etc., but I still do not want the divorce, however it will all be over in a couple of months since we aren't fighting over details. The reasons he gave me for getting a divorce were that I was not emotionally there for him, at the end of the day, with work and our daughter, I never had time for him. He wants to find someone to love him and share life with and I'm not that person. Now that it's been a couple of months of seperation, I can admit that I was sometimes preoccupied with work, housework, child, and I also realize that he was not very attentive to me and I was unhappy with that. I can see that we drifted apart. But these seem like such small things that can be easily fixed either through counseling or communication between the two of us, not large problems that we should get a divorce over, especially since we have a 3 year old daughter. I have read about Plan A and plan B, however, since I do not know of an affair, and also since we have very little contact with each other, I can't really implement them. In the beginning I told him that I still loved him, that I really wanted to work on the relationship, and for him to please consider counseling with me, if not just for our daughter. But he said that no counselor was going to make him love me again, it was over. Sometimes he would come to the house to pick up our daughter and we would argue, and he would say things like "I considered coming home, but when you fight with me, I just realize it would never work." So I know in the beginning, he at least considered it. Sometimes he calls me and we talk about our child, then the conversation turns to other things, and we get along really well on the phone, and I think, see there is still something there. Other times, he is very angry and blames me for him being broke because of maintaining two households, and problems with our child, and it's all my fault because I didn't pay attention to him, and he lies to me and yells at me, and he always makes a point to say things like "I don't spend anytime thinking about the relationship, I've been over it for a long time." Originally he told me not to call him or e-mail him, to just give him his space, so I did. But now it seems like he calls me. When I asked him why, he said to discuss our daughter, but really I don't believe that, since we talk about many other things. Sometimes I do feel like he misses me and thats why he calls. But when we see each other in person, it seems like he has a hard time looking me in the eye, and friends have noticed that he was the same way with them, so once again then I start to believe he's feeling guilty about something, such as another women. Anyways, the first two weeks after he left, I was a total wreck, had to take sleeping pills to sleep even half the night, cried all the time, lost 25 lbs. I could barely keep it together. But I came out of that, and have been doing really well considering. Going out and doing things with friends, joining group activities, don't cry anymore, etc. And I've been the primary caretaker for our daughter and am proud of how well I've done when my life was such a mess. So, here's my questions, half of me wants to try once more, to just ask him to meet me for coffee and one last time ask him if there is a chance for us, ask again if there is someone else and that I would forgive him if there was, and why can't we work together on the problems, but if he says NO, I'm afraid I will go back to that pit I was in the first couple of weeks, and I really don't want to put myself back there and have to start over again. But the other half of me says, if you don't try, you will never know for sure. And then again I think, even though I'm angry right now at the way he did this, I will keep being nice to him on the phone since that's our only contact, and keep giving him his space, and maybe over time he will start to miss being part of our family, and start to regret his rash decision, and then maybe we could sit down and talk about it, however, I don't have much time since the divorce will probably be final in two months. Thoughts anyone, do you think I have a chance, or should I just give up and move on? I really thought that although we didn't have a perfect marriage, I thought it was pretty good. We all hung out together as a family on weekends and did fun things, but he says all we did was fight on weekends. How can two people in the same relationship have such a different view of what it was? The hardest part is that just a few weeks prior to this happening, he was planning surprise anniversary trip for us, we had been looking at houses to buy, discussing the idea of more children. He called me at work everyday to see how it was going, say he loved me. When I asked him, "If things were so bad, how could you have been doing all those things." He said he was just going through the motions. Please help, I need all the advice I can get.[This message has been edited by MacKenzie (edited January 10, 2001).]

1. Work on yourself first.2. Be nice on the phone.3. Don't press for an in-person meeting, except for him to see your child.4. Learn to use paragraph breaks so that we all have an easier time reading what you've written. If you want to write it all out first and add them later, that's fine. In fact, you can use the centermost icon over your post to *edit* it, and I recommend you do so and go back and add those breaks.

Being nice and putting no pressure on him is important. If you can get the strength to say to him something to the effect of "I love you and want to stay together. I understand your concerns about needing attention from me and I am willing to do what needs to be done. But if you wish to continue with this dovrce, understand that it is against my wishes, but I will remain faithful and loving." Then shut up and give him all the space he needs. Don't call him; he is beginning to recognize that he misses you. Let him see a woman who truly understands (or is capable of understanding) his needs, which you are demonstrating by not acting clingy or needy or griping. That is very important. Sometimes the other person will goad you into arguments to validate his/her position about leaving: "Yup, I knew we couldn't get along." I know this from experience. Throw them off course and they do not know what to do. My H is gone, but he did acknowledge that he was perplexed by my patience and loyalty during the separation. That is the essence behind plan A (infidelity or not). Read all that you can on plan A posts. It seems like you are going along with his indecision, but really you are allowing him to figure out that you are right for him on his own. That is empowering for him.

If he left his first wife the same way, he has an established pattern of something. especially with the events just prior to the speech. something is fishy, not necessarily another women, but within him mentally, like afraid of long term committment, or becoming a parent, or something from his family of origin.If he refuses to see a counselor, then he admits he doesn't want to consider the possibility.I would mentally prepare for the divorce, especially with the events that were happening just before. It's really sad and depressing to see someone you love just turn into someone else right in front of your eyes.tom

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime: If he refuses to see a counselor, then he admits he doesn't want to consider the possibility.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>True. But the #1 attitude you want to influence (by hook or by crook) in a WS is the attitude that counseling is not for them. A couple of caveats, though: If the counselor is one you're already seeing, or have had more than minimal contact with; it's probable that you *own* the counselor in the WS's mind ... WS doesn't want to deal with someone who is already biased. Second, if you can get to a seminar program, like Gottman, PAIRS, Retrouvaille, etc., you need to make sure that long-term aftercare with a counselor familiar with their methods is available. Particularly if they are at the opposite corner of the country. I'd take a third-rate program with aftercare over a first-rate one without. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I would mentally prepare for the divorce, especially with the events that were happening just before. It's really sad and depressing to see someone you love just turn into someone else right in front of your eyes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Defeat does not occur when papers are filed. It does not occur when a judge declares the marriage dissolved. It does not occur when the WS starts seeing other people. It occurs when the BS gives up. While it may not be a bad thing to capitulate depending on the circumstance, my point would be that if you do it arbitrarily when some milestone occurs, it may come back to haunt you. Especially when there is a child involved.I don't think WIFTT intended to equate "mentally prepare for the divorce" with "give up", but I think it's easy to read it that way. "Giving up", if it is ever necessary, should occur in your own time and on your own terms.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 10, 2001).]

But how do I try and get him to counseling when we only speak on the phone a couple of times a week, and rarely see each other other than to exchange our child. How do you influence someone and show them how much you love them and want the relationship to work when there's so little contact. He called me today, and we had a long conversation re: our child and it was very nice, just like we used to be when we were still together, but that doesn't mean he's coming home, only that both of us are willing to work hard for our daughter to be happy.But it seems to me that if the two of us can be such a team re: our child, while in the midst of this divorce, why can't we also work as a team to make the marriage work?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: But how do I try and get him to counseling when we only speak on the phone a couple of times a week, and rarely see each other other than to exchange our child. How do you influence someone and show them how much you love them and want the relationship to work when there's so little contact. He called me today, and we had a long conversation re: our child and it was very nice, just like we used to be when we were still together, but that doesn't mean he's coming home, only that both of us are willing to work hard for our daughter to be happy.But it seems to me that if the two of us can be such a team re: our child, while in the midst of this divorce, why can't we also work as a team to make the marriage work?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's lyin' time. You tell him you see things with respect to the child that indicate the breakup is having a detrimental effect. Actually, I doubt you'll have to make stuff up. Then you tell him that a family counselor might help the two of you mitigate the effects.

My H was willing to go to a counselor to discuss children issues, of which there were several important ones. It was pretty much a total waste of time. After maybe half a dozen sessions, she declared us done (in a positive sense) and said that she expected that we would be able to work out further issues on our own. In that last session, my H suggested that we meet for lunch once a week or more often to work out a separation agreement. Unfortunately, he had apparently neglected to clear that with the OW. Within a matter of weeks, he was calling me stupid and untrustworthy because I wanted to meet to discuss issues. The counselor had told him that it was way to soon for the children to have to sleep at the OW's house. He told our son that he couldn't spend more time with them because "I" wouldn't allow them to visit overnight at the OW's house.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nellie1: My H was willing to go to a counselor to discuss children issues, of which there were several important ones. It was pretty much a total waste of time. After maybe half a dozen sessions, she declared us done (in a positive sense) and said that she expected that we would be able to work out further issues on our own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bad, bad counselor. McK, get to yours first and make sure there is agreement on your agenda in the event the counselor sees a glimmer of hope.

Actually the counseling thing is true. Our child has been having problems due to the seperation. She loves to go to dinner with him and play, but has been reluctant to spend the night at his house. Also she tells him that Mommy cries all the time, which I don't and she tries to tell me that daddy didn't feed her dinner or that he's a lier, which I know he fed her dinner. So I was given a recommendation to a child phsycologist and have put in a call to him for an appt., just waiting to hear back from him. But I don't want him to come back to the relationship just because our child is having problems, I want him to come back because he truly wants to make it work. I sincerely want to help my child with her problems by going to this counselor.Until that time, we have decided to scale back the visitation a little bit, it may have been too many nights away from her primary home at her age.When he brought her home last night, he did stay at the house for about 20 min. and we had polite conversation, but we didn't talk about the divorce or any aspect of it.I can't bring myself to tell him that I still want this marriage to work, because anytime in the past I have done that, he responds with "I don't love you anymore." or "You should have wanted it two years ago when you didn't pay attention to me." And I have been doing so well, not crying or being depressed, that I am afraid to hear those words again and go back to being so sad and lonely and blaming myself for the whole thing.For now, each time I see him I will just continue to be very nice and to try and show him what he's missing. I'm not sure if there is another woman or not, but either way, I want him to see that I truly love him and want him to be a part of my life.Any other advice?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: Any other advice?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you're being given a sense of his emotional distance from you, *not* being faced with an eternal closed door. That distance can be gradually bridged, if you are patient, patient, patient. Just make every interaction the kind of interaction that makes him *want* to have yet another interaction. Other than that, get in front of a counselor who understands this could go a lot farther than working out parenting issues...

Thank you. I did see my counselor today, and although he thinks that there is a low chance of reconciliation, he does do workshops and thought that after a couple of weeks of nice interaction, maybe I could bring up to him that there is a workshop being offered that would give us a chance to understand how the other thinks so that we could better co-parent together, and maybe if I put it to him that way, then he would be willing to attend. If I put it to him that it's marriage counseling to work things out between the two of us, then I know he won't go.Anyways, it's worth a try. We'll have to see how the next week or so goes.Thanks for the advice

Well...here's an update on my situation. It's not good news at all, but I have gotten a lot stronger in the last two months since he left (plus those antidepressants help), so actually I am doing much better than I thought I would. My STBX would continue to call me at work, under the guise of discussing our D, but then we would always turn to other things, family, friends, work, etc. He would ask what I was doing on such and such a night while our D was with him. I just kept thinking it was more than just friendly conversation, that it was more. My friends and counselor, however, thought it was more of a control issue. That he doesn't want to be married to me, but he still wants to know what I'm up to, and gets jealous from time to time if I'm out having fun. But I just kept wondering what was behind it all.So yesterday when he called me at work, we chatted for a few minutes, and I just decided what the H___? It might hurt, but at least I will know and stop wondering. So I asked him, "Are you still sure that this is the right decision for us?" He asked what I meant. And I just said, are you as sure as when you left that this divorce is really what you want? And he said yes. We talked for about an hour about what he perceived the problems to be, and although I do still agree that both of us had things we weren't perfectly happy with, the reasons aren't ones that can't be fixed or dealt with by counseling. And I still don't agree that divorce is the answer, especially when we have a child. But, unfortunately, he doesn't see it that way.He has said that there is no one else, that he's not having or hasn't had an affair (I'm still reluctant to believe that due to his past and also how quickly it all came about with my having no idea). Basically, he said that all we have to talk about anymore is work and our child, and so when she grew up and moved out, we would have split up then anyways, so why waste all that time. Also, he said that I had a hard time balancing work, housework, time with our child, and time for him. That he always came last in that order. And last of all, that I always nagged him to help with housework, or certain childcare activities, and he got tired of always being in trouble for not helping out. And that he wants to find some happiness other than just being a parent.Now these are all his exact words that I am using, and I of course have diffent views of this same situation, but nonetheless, no matter what I think in comparison to what he thinks, it does not change the fact that he is not coming home.I think that he is looking for the perfect woman, superwoman, and he's never going to find it, he will continually be on this search. I work 50 hours a week, bring in almost as much money as he, do 80% of the house work, do 80% of the childcare, take care of all the little details, car insurance, Dr.'s appts., all of it, and rather than pitching in and helping (he did help some), he complains that I never have any time for him. In his mind, I should have just said s___ the laundry, s___ groceries, what's more important.Well, of course now that he's gone, I do wish that I had been more flexible and let some things go, but when you have a family, don't you have certain responsibilities that need to be taken care of. And as far as the nothing to talk about thing, I said, look at all we have in common, we play softball together, volleyball, soccer, scuba dive, travel, we both love all of those things. And his response was "Yes, and as long as we are out doing those things, we are great, but when we are home, we have nothing to talk about." But...I did ask him, "Well, obviously I have some aspects of my personality that I need to work on, so would you mind coming to my counseling appt. with me and explaining your side of the story to my counselor so that he can understand, and maybe better help me, so that in my next relationship this won't happen again? He agreed to go, not with me, but to go alone and tell my counselor. So he will be seeing him tomorrow.My counselor still feels that maybe after tomorrow's session, hopefully he can talk him into doing a session with me, not necessarily to bring us back together, but just for me to understand how he thinks, and him to understand my thinking so we can be better parents together.So, I guess I have my answer, the divorce will go through in a couple of months. Maybe I'm just vain or in denial, but I can't help thinking that down the line he will see it was a mistake. He can fall in love with someone else, and things will be wonderful for awhile, but eventually, they will probably argue about household duties and if they have children, there will be responsibilities that need attending to there, not just fun all the time.I am sad, but I am committed to making the best out of this, learning from my mistakes, making a happy future for my daughter and I, and making better choices in partners in the future.Wish me luck that my counselor can get through to him that these complaints are all things that can be remedied...but I don't seriously hold out any hope.

I'd say continue to hope; and learn how to do a Plan A. Do not accept defeat until he is at the altar with someone else. NSR should have sent you a welcome post. You should post with a title like "Hey NSR-where's my welcome post?!" ... or just look for his welcome post to another newbie. Whether there's someone else or not is irrelevant. There is a child, and your WS (wayward spouse) may come back. Your counselor sounds like he's trying to prepare you for disappointment, not encourage you. Be sure he doesn't give your WS any arguments *not* to return.Don't become bitter. What's happening to you can cause tremendous feelings of bitterness (more than you're feeling now), and you're not going to want to have anything to do with your WS; this will happen probably just at the moment when your WS *could* be coaxed back ... but you won't feel much like coaxing. Look at Harley's writings (especially His Needs/Her Needs), and programs like Retrouvaille and PAIRS.

Well, I seem to be at a crossroads, part of me feels like just going on with my life. I notice that when I go a few days without talking to/seeing him, my self esteem improves, I quit blaming myself for the whole thing, I cope much better. But as soon as he calls or we see each other, I'm down, depressed, can't understand why he doesn't at least want to give it a chance.But the other part is afraid that if I give up now, I will never know if I could have turned things around. But it's so hard to be a good mom when my moods are continually up and down. I mean he's told me at least 20 times over the last two months that he doesn't love me anymore, that he never will again, that a counselor isn't going to be able to change that. At one point I had asked him about going to a movie and he said the only reason he would ever go to a movie with me was cause he really wanted to see the movie. And really, he didn't even want to seperate, he wanted out immediately, and he filed right away, and even complained that the 90 waiting period was too long. So I'm probably beating a dead horse.But on the other hand, at times I think I see something in his eyes that tells me that he misses me. But I'm sure I'm just seeing what I want to see.Today is the day he goes to my counselor to tell his side of the story, so we met to exchange my daughter and to show him how to get there. We decided on a set routine for picking up/dropping off our child, prior to now we had to call each other each time to coordinate time/location, so now there will basically be no reason for us to call each other with this new routine, and it almost seemed to me that he didn't like that idea too well.Also, I told him to just tell my counselor that I would pay for this session next time since he was doing it for me. And he offered to pay! Prior to now, he had complained about being broke with paying child support. At times he seems like two different people, one accused me of my daughter only being a chore to me, the other said that I never cut the umbilical cord and paid too much attention to her! One said that he hates what his relationship with his daughter has become since the seperation, and the next breath asked if he could bring her home earlier than the agreed upon time. Realistically all of you that have been posting here for awhile, how many people have you seen on this board actually put their relationships back together? The statistics in the books say it's very unusual. So I wonder if I'm sabatoging my recovery by not just moving on like he told me to do.Since this happened, we have been in contact with each other basically every couple of days about one thing or another, but now with this new visitation routine, we will not see each other until next Sat., and there is really no reason to call either, so I will be curious to see if he does call anyways. Part of me thinks he hasn't had to see the consequences of permanance of his decision since we are always in contact, so maybe a whole week without contact will be good, maybe he will miss me. Anyways, my counselor will call me to tell me his impressions of the session, minus what my STBX asked him not to tell me, so I will be anxious to hear what he thought, although, I'm pretty sure I know what he will say. MOVE ON, he's never coming back.Thoughts anyone??

Well, realistically, it's probably time for me to accept reality. I talked to my counselor and basically my STBX gave him the same reasons for the divorce. After our daughter was born, I devoted all my attention to her and left him out. I spent a lot of time at work and with housework and didn't pay attention to him. He said he just doesn't love me at all anymore.He did tell him that there is no other woman, that he is committed to recovering from this relationship before he moves on to another relationship. But that he is not interested in any type of counseling as far as recovering our marriage, only counseling for us to be better co-parents.He said that he has been trying to tell me for the past couple of years that he's been unhappy, but I just didn't listen. Now when I asked him why he didn't tell me for two years, he responded that he did...by not buying me as many presents on special occasions. Now how was I supposed to know that meant he didn't love me anymore, I just thought that as the honeymoon phase was over, you didn't get as many presents from your husband anymore. I had no idea he was unhappy. He did admit to the counselor that he is somewhat closed off emotionally.Anyways, it is very sad to me that there is no infidelity, no abuse, no alcohol/drugs, no problems such as that, and we have a daughter, but he still maintains that there is no hope for counseling. Just says that no counselor is going to make him love me again.It seems that it's as simple as me making the committment to him to be more attentive to his needs, and to be more flexible about the house always being clean, and him committ to being more open and sharing his feelings with me. These things are easily done through counseling I would think, but yet it's not even an option for him, he's just not interested.I feel that his reasons are not entirely true, I have photo albums from the last two years full of pictures of all three of us, and also just the two of us having great times, and definitely paying attention to him, but it doesn't matter what I think or feel, it matters what he thinks and feels, since he is the one that wants the divorce.I would like to Plan A, but how? We only will see each other about once a week, and the divorce will be final in about 6 weeks. And there is no other woman, so there's no fog to be lifted. He's just done with me.Any advice for me anyone??

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: ...And there is no other woman, so there's no fog to be lifted. He's just done with me.Any advice for me anyone??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"The fog" is not necessarily about there being another woman. Believe me, the fog is there. You can tell because of the logical inconsistency in declaring the situation to be hopeless when the problem he identified is readily fixable.My advice is to give him time. Who knows? Maybe when he's ready for a relationship again, he'll be ready to try a relationship with you.

You're of course right, it is some kind of fog. We talked for a long time the other day, and basically he say that he has been falling out of love with me for a couple of years, and actually didn't love me at all anymore 6 months ago, so that's why it seems so easy for him to move on. He has already had 6 months to adjust, and no one is going to be able to bring the love for me back. It hurts to hear that, but at least he is honest with me.It seems like on days that I am feeling good about myself and my self esteem is up, I think to myself, he's wrong. We took our daughter to her grandparents almost every weekend for at least a few hours and went to lunch, or somewhere to watch football, or just to hang out. And they watched her a couple of times a week while we played out sports. Now how many people get that much time together when they have a young child? So I did pay attention to him and the relationship, we did do lots of things together. He just is the type of person who always likes to be out doing something fun all the time, not staying home much to attend to laundry or yard work and such. But when you have a house and a child, there are certain responsibilities you have to attend to.We relocated about a year ago, so we then didn't have grandparents nearby to watch our D, but he really really wanted this relocation and knew that we wouldn't have a steady babysitter for awhile.But... on days when I am down, and my self esteem is low, I think to myself "I ruined my marriage, someone I loved more than this whole world doesn't love me anymore, and it's all my fault. What I wouldn't do to be given one more chance."What I don't understand about myself is, he didn't always give me lots of attention either, he wasn't the hand holding, hugging type, and I really missed that. And sometimes I told him about that, and it still didn't change. But I would never have left the marriage because of that. Don't you make exceptions to some flaws because you love someone. And I did hate that he didn't like to stay home much. I wanted him to take more responsibility around the house. But still, in spite of these things, I still want him to come home.Why can't I just go on, realize that he doesn't like my personality, and I didn't always like his, and why can't I just think, hey, now we will both find someone who is better suited to us and be happy. I guess I thought we were happy, and I still do love him.Even he admitted to the counselor that he does crazy things sometimes, like lying to me, and he doesn't understand why. I'm hoping that it means there is at least the slightest bit of feelings there for me, at least something I can work on.

MacKenzie----lots of hugs to you from me and a legion of others. My wife has done this with our marriage of 22 years, so I know the pain. I have also found no magical cure. She, too, has seemed to chose going to a vacuum rather than stay and work on our marriage. I have read on here to try to put yourself in the shoes they are wearing now. In a way, by my wanting to change to what she has wanted for so long(just never told me) I am aggravating her by changing. But, put your focus on YOU. Make yourself the person you want to be, and try to be happy. His decision is his to make. You will be able to walk with your head up high, knowing you did all you could. If he comes back, then great---make it a great marriage. If my wife continues on and divorce happens, then I am going to make sure that the next woman I date is not a WAW. They deserve to end up with WAHs!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: But... on days when I am down, and my self esteem is low, I think to myself "I ruined my marriage, someone I loved more than this whole world doesn't love me anymore, and it's all my fault. What I wouldn't do to be given one more chance."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Both your separate actions "ruined" your marriage (I don't like the "ruined" word--maybe it's better to say "paused"). You cannot take the blame alone. And you *still* have that chance. It's right now! Take a chance, don't wait to be given it. The meaning you're giving to "another chance" is "another comfortably locked-in situation"--of course you don't have that. If you look in a book of romantic ideas on a bookstore shelf--how many of them actually require you to be present or on the phone? Perhaps a bunch--but there are plenty you can do from a distance. You can start small; with nothing "over-the-top" that he can complain about. This is the beginning of your Plan A. Your love bank account with him may still accept deposits, even when he has stamped it "closed". The only way to find out is to try to make some.

Please give me some idea of what you are talking about for romantic things to make deposits. When he left, it was a week before our anniversary. I had already bought a present, so I gave it too him anyways, he didn't want it. A couple of weeks later, I bought him a book called "Married and Alone" because that is how he said he felt. He said he'd take it, but wasn't going to read it, so I might as well return it and get my money back.I can't think of anything I could do small enough that he won't think it's just another attempt for me to win him back, which he has said will never happen.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: Please give me some idea of what you are talking about for romantic things to make deposits.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, the examples you cite look to him as though they target what *you* want (the marriage). They have little to do with what *he* wants.It's hard to throw something back in someone's face when *you* in fact *do* want it. I don't know what *he* wants, but I bet you have a pretty good idea. Maybe it's a hot new fishing lure. Or a gift subscription to a car magazine. Chances are cards and letters won't help you yet ... you need subtlety ... a book on parenting when you're divorced (one with the right anti-divorce spin) might be a good idea. You could take your daughter to a portrait studio and have a good new picture taken so that he could keep it on his wall at home and his desk at work. A good attack plan hits the enemy where his intelligence and defenses are weak. Those soft spots are his *own* personal preferences--if direct marketers can do this pretty well based on scant data, how in the world can you miss, knowing him as well as you do?

Oh my God, you hit the nail on the head. I have an appt. tonight to get my D's pix taken, and she must have mentioned it to him when she was with him on Sat., cause when he dropped her off, he asked about it, and I could tell it bothered him that he was being left out of something that we typically all did together as a family. And I was planning to send them to everyone on his side of the family, as well as give him some. I will spend some time tonight thinking about other things to do. I suppose a Valentines gift is not a good idea though!!Thanks for your help, I will give it a try.

Update, what I knew in my head, but kept not accepting in my heart is true. There is another woman. A friend of mine was at a restaurant the other night and saw him with the woman he went on the business trip with. This is twice. He left his first wife cause he was attracted to me, now left me for her. The weirdest part, she looks exactly like me. My friend thought it was me at first.How can he live with himself. How can he look his daughter in the eye. Now I know the true reason he keeps blaming me. It eases his guilt. If he can make it all my fault, then he doesn't have to feel guilty.Anyways, I'm going to let him hang himself. He has told everyone, my family, his family, friends, even my counselor that there's no one. But after the divorce is final, I will have no problem letting everyone know that this new girlfriend of his is not new at all, that she is the one he went on the business trip with three days before he walked out on his wife and daughter. No wonder he had to file for divorce so quickly. Oh, I'm livid. Plan A my [censored]. He's done this twice now, and he'll do it again. He's not worth the salt in my tears these last two months and I wish him nothing but unhappiness for the rest of his life!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: Oh, I'm livid. Plan A my [censored]. He's done this twice now, and he'll do it again. He's not worth the salt in my tears these last two months and I wish him nothing but unhappiness for the rest of his life!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That may not be the best choice for your child. But the choice is yours.However, if you live in a state where money spent on her (or just the fact that he has her) is legally relevant; you may want to have a private detective gather some evidence. Check with your attorney--quickly!

MacKenzie,I'm really sorry about your bad news. You don't deserve this kind of pain.I know you feel horrible right now, and I just read over your previous posts. It may surprise you to know that I'm somewhat more optimistic about your chances of saving your marriage now that it looks like there is another woman (assuming that his dinner with her really indicates a romance).It's pretty common that people make very little progress with Plan A while an affair is ongoing. As painful as it is, I'd have been more concerned if there was no other person and you still couldn't make progress. Your job, if you do elect to continue trying, is to make yourself an attractive alternative for him to return to when the affair falls apart. The odds are on your side--affairs usually don't last.To quote Sisyphus earlier in this thread, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Defeat does not occur when papers are filed. It does not occur when a judge declares the marriage dissolved. It does not occur when the WS starts seeing other people. It occurs when the BS gives up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have seemed pretty pessimistic all along, but the odds on your side are pretty good if you want to see this thing through.At least, wait a little while. Vent here, rather than saying anything to your husband which will hamper your chances of reconciliation. Yell and scream if you wish, but not at him. Don't burn your bridges just yet--you may feel differently later.I'm so sorry it's this way. I know the path I'm advocating goes against your instincts, but I'm hoping it may help you avoid actions you'll regret.You'll be in my thoughts and prayers.Steve

Thanks all for your responses. I know I seemed callous yesterday, but you have to understand the background. I knew him 6 years ago when he was married to his first wife. And one day he was married, the next day he simply said "I don't love you anymore." and walked away and never looked back and the divorce was final 30 days later (not much of a waiting period in that state).Of course I'm the idiot who started dating him soon after, married him, had a child with him, and never thought for one moment he'd do it to me too.And it's the same story all over again. Went on a business trip with this woman. I had no idea we had any problems. Came back from this business trip and simply said "I don't love you anymore." And went immediately to a hotel that day. When I asked about counseling he said no, when I asked if there was any chance for us, he said no. Once again, no looking back, just moves on.He blamed his first wife for not being right for him, now he's been blaming all of this on me. What are the odds that the poor guy just has this terrible luck and marries these terrible women twice? I think he just always thinks he's found the perfect mate, then when they turn out to be not perfect, he moves on to the next one.I am not going to put my daughter through this again 5 years from now, and I firmly believe he will do it again. At least now she's young and it won't be as hard on her as when she was an adolescent. Unfortunately, this woman has an even younger child, so if he does do it again in a few years, he will hurt this child too.He has a problem with PTSD, and if anybody knows what that is, characteristics are to not form close bonds and emotional ties, and to just move from relationship to relationship.Yes, I loved him, yes I trusted him, yes I wish things could have been different. But now it's time for me to protect my child, I will not let him hurt her again. So, I apologize to everyone here who believes in Plan A/B, but I just can't do it. It is better for me to go on and live a new life with a partner who believes in the committment of marriage, who would be willing to go to counseling if the marriage was in trouble. Too late, I did some major love busters last night, and I feel justified in doing so. But you know what's funny...when he wanted the divorce and I didn't, that was fine with him. Now that I've told him I want the divorce, he's not too happy about that, and he sure is curious about why I'm not interested in talking to him anymore.Anyways, I'm not even going to tell him what I know. He can just wonder why the new attitude with me, and as far as his family is concerned, he'll just hang himself when it comes out that he's dating the woman he went to Atlanta with. After he told me, his family, and even my counselor that there was absolutely no one else.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: Yes, I loved him, yes I trusted him, yes I wish things could have been different. But now it's time for me to protect my child, I will not let him hurt her again. So, I apologize to everyone here who believes in Plan A/B, but I just can't do it.Too late, I did some major love busters last night, and I feel justified in doing so. But you know what's funny...when he wanted the divorce and I didn't, that was fine with him. Now that I've told him I want the divorce, he's not too happy about that, and he sure is curious about why I'm not interested in talking to him anymore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No one has the right to tell you how much cr*p you must withstand from him. But you must realize that he has within him the capacity for change, introspection, and the realization that he is going wrong again.It seems as though you're already going to Plan B. That's fine if you don't want to be married to this lout. It is a view shared by plenty of very smart and very reasonable people. It may be the right view for this situation.But you were on Marriagebuilders because you wanted to fix your marriage, not throw it away. You don't know whether this is still an emotional affair, or has progressed to being a physical affair. You don't know what OW's part in it is. Is she a reluctant or wholehearted participant. Sure, now you don't want the marriage. And maybe cold, toughlove is the best way to treat this situation. But you will swing the other way soon; and the best approach is to try to dampen the oscillations in your emotions now ... realize that for your daughter's sake you will probably be willing to reapproach him ... and when you're pining for the relationship you've lost, realize that you really want it for your daughter's sake, not your own; you *could* live alone or make a new life for yourself with someone else. By better handling your own emotions, you will be able to avoid errors in your behavior with respect to *him*.If he wants you back, he will be willing to admit to the affair and its extent, and he'll eat a lot of dirt to get you and your daughter back. I'm not betting either way, just suggesting that even if you close the door, it may not be time to bolt it, nail wood across it, and push furniture in front of it.

Mack,If you read my first post on this thread, I am with you all the way! My first response to your discovery day was "I was right in his pattern repetition!"I would say that he has to want to change, and if he did, it would be a long time, and it would be difficult.My X has lots of psych problems, and it is getting worse as she gets older. So, I support you in your decision, and think you should start the paper work, and rake him over the coals, and that would be the only way he would ever break the cycle. Especially since you havee a child.Find a shark lawyer, and take him to the cleaners. Do not be nice, he needs to hit bottom, and he will hate you for it, but in the long run, the F he will get will be the only 2x4 he has gotten to take responsibility for his behavior.good luck!I wish I could take the same path, but in my situation, it would be impossible to win, and devastating in the end.tom

Thanks for your support. Unfortunately, when my self esteem was low and I was not feeling good about myself (plus the fact I couldn't afford an attorney), he and I already went ahead and filed a permanent seperation agreement and parenting plan, so I think I'm done in that arena. But I am going to check into it.He didn't abuse me in the settlement, feeling too guilty I think, so I have primary custody of our child, he has visitation, and he took 2/3 of the debt, me 1/3. But I did say I wouldn't get any of his pension, but then he can't have any of mine either. So I live in a no fault state, and he filed for the divorce on 12/12, so he gets it no matter if he is having an affair or not, but I do think the judges tend to sway more in my favor as far as property division and support in light of an affair, something else I will check into with an attorney. But all in all, I didn't get a bad deal.I still firmly believe that my daughter would be better off with both of her natual parents in the home, raising her together, but as I said before, I just don't feel I can take the chance of him doing this to us again another 5 years down the road.He has no desire to reconcile anyways, he has told me that a hundred times. He's in the grass is greener stage right now, and I can't wait until it ends, and he wakes up and realized what he's done, again!!

Update, called the courts where this woman resides, lo and behold, she filed for divorce too. Isn't that weird. Went on a business trip both married, came back, both file for a divorce.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: Update, called the courts where this woman resides, lo and behold, she filed for divorce too. Isn't that weird. Went on a business trip both married, came back, both file for a divorce. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you want to commit a REAL lovebuster, start conspiring with the other BS (part of me is gleeful at the wicked Haydukian [George Hayduke--author of many "Revenge" manuals] possibilities, the other part knows better).

Actually, my best revenge will be to go on and live a good life with my daughter, and see the look on his face when he comes out of the fog. And also to know that I tried hard, no matter when he lied to me, manipulated me, blamed me, I took it and continued to be friendly to him and let him know I still wanted the marriage. But this is the last straw. I deserve better, and so does my daughter.But there is the revenge side. Don't think I'm not thinking about hiring a PI, and mailing a pic to him/her/his mom/her ex. Maybe in Valentine's Day cards?? Will have to check the budget. Not sure he's worth my extra cash. Although, it may help out in court anyways. Wow, I am love busting all over the place huh. Probably time for me to quit posting before I make you all mad.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: But there is the revenge side. Don't think I'm not thinking about hiring a PI, and mailing a pic to him/her/his mom/her ex. Maybe in Valentine's Day cards?? Will have to check the budget. Not sure he's worth my extra cash. Although, it may help out in court anyways. Wow, I am love busting all over the place huh. Probably time for me to quit posting before I make you all mad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I got more revenge pent up in me than a busload of Hollywood's worst villains. And the capacity to deliver some of it for the cost of a stamp.In reality, what you and the other BS should do is touch base to compare notes. Either of you may know things that the other needs to know. But don't cook up any active mischief for your respective WS's. Let their "thing" run its course. I wouldn't tell the WS's about it either. Why would you want to voluntarily discard a secret advantage?I got a kick out of your Valentine idea. Of course, it's your choice whether to implement it. Speaking for myself only, given that it's not physically harmful, disproportionate, or collaterally harmful to innocents; I would find it hard to resist.

I have thought of contacting the other BS, but I'm only holding back just in case I'm wrong. What if it really is just a coincidence, then I go and call him and nothing is happening. That would be a major mistake. Even though I'm about 99% sure, I want to be 100% sure before I do something like that.Yes, that Valentine's Day idea is almost too good to pass up, we will have to see how the next couple of weeks go, if he keeps lying to me and manipulating me, it just might have to happen.If he would just fess up, I would let it go, but he actually looked me straight in the eye Thurs. and told me nothing was going on, then looked my counselor straight in the eye on Sat. and told him the same thing. He has absolutely no morals.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: [H]e actually looked me straight in the eye Thurs. and told me nothing was going on, then looked my counselor straight in the eye on Sat. and told him the same thing. He has absolutely no morals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps he doesn't understand the concept of "emotional affair" and believes that without physical contact there is nothing that damages a marriage. That's not a lack of morals, that's a lack of education about what marriages need in order to survive.If someone is confiding in a person of the opposite sex who isn't a trained therapist and who *might* be a sex partner, that's like watching Springer to learn how to be a successful, urbane professional. Nothing could be more self-sabotaging. But if you don't know better, well, you're going to deny, deny, deny if you're questioned--because "nothing" has happened. You'll rationalize that your friendship is no one's business, and you'll keep right on sinking into the extramarital morass.

But do two people actually file for divorce from their spouses that quickly after a business trip for only an emotional affair? He moved out 3 days after return. Wouldn't they need more, to be sure, to actually make the leap into divorce country. I mean mine filed right away, my divorce will be final in 6 weeks. There's only a 90 day waiting period here. One would think that for an emotional affair, maybe they would seperate, see how things go, then file for divorce. Obviously I don't have a clue since I have not done this, but I really think it's more than emotional. I just think he's really good at rationalizing this in his own mind, so that even he believes he's not doing anything wrong. He tells me all the time what a sh___ wife I was. So I think he figures that it's not his fault he did it, it's mine.I'm starting to think borderline personality disorder, in light of that this is a pattern, and also him admitting to my counselor that he does crazy things to me, nice then mean, nice then mean.Who knows? I sure don't.

BPD, has many facets, and he could have it.There is a good book, Borderline Personality Disorder - When the one You love has it. or something close to that. It has a very colorful cover.Get it and read it, he might have it, and I would just go with my last post, if someone can flip on a dime in 3 days, he's so unstable, forget it completely.tom

Three days for me, one day for his first wife. I knew him when he did it to her, she was crushed, was in counseling for a long time, as I am crushed now. And he shows no remorse other than basically agreeing to whatever I asked in the divorce paperwork.I worry for my daughter. When she gets to adolescence, and acts out, will he just write her off too and coldly walk away?I will try to find that book, thank you. Although after all that I found out today, I'm not feeling generous enough to spend any amount of time concentrating on his problems, and I don't really want to feel any sympathy for him, which I know I would if I started to believe he has a mental disorder. Maybe tomorrow.

OK, I'm reading my own posts here, and I sound like a freak, anyone agree??"I love him, I hate him, I want to work it out, I'm better off without him."Who am I? I used to be so stable!!

Mac- Just took the time to read through all of the posts.. If you are a freak.. I need to join that club also.. We are on such common ground. My H also lied, cheated, swore there was noone else, etc.. (Meanwhile he had moved her in with her). Oh and guess what, she's married too. He also left his first wife after being attracted me someone else... Deja Vu... Anyway, I see that you have posted and read a few of my posts as well. I am fluctuating right now on if I could ever trust him again in any capacity. At least we didn't have children, so I don't have to deal with that part.. As for the revenge thing.. Hasn't it gone through all of our minds?? I can't tell you some of the thoughts that I have had.. I can tell you I have acted on none of them and never will. I have more pride in myself than that. Especially if you have a child- don't do anything to alienate the child from a parent. In time they will figure it all out for themselves. As for contacting the other BS, I have had the opportunity to do so, and he has even called my house several times. I have right now elected not to say too much (actually, nothing so far). When/if the time comes that I actually speak to him I intend on telling him to contact his wife for answers. I only know my side of the story. Figure it is for each of us to deal with. Plus there is a small part of me that wants another chance with my H, and I know that if I went to the trouble of having any type of "deal" with the WS H, than nothing could happen. I have only to be honest with myself. Know, though, that you are not a "freak" and this is a devastating time in your life. Being on this emotional roller coaster is as normal as you can be under the circumstances. Take care of yourself and your child and take each day as it comes. Make sure that whatever choices you make you can still hold your head up and know that you did the right thing, even if he didn't...arm6868@yahoo.com

Mac,the book is NOT for him, it is for you, and how to deal with him. It says right in the introduction, when you see that this fits, you will want to go and tell the person that you have found his answer. They can't see it and won't believe any of it. BPD is a very sophisticated coping mechanism, and since they have used this coping mechanism all their life successfully, they are not about to change it now.But the book discusses characteristics and how to handle them. It blew me away to have exact discussions we had in the book. Now that was freaky. Also, since I started using how they recommended to respond, since it is "catchy," it was very obvious to see in plain daylight. Also picked up on it in the daughter. If he really has it, it is somewhat genetic!!! You need to educate yourself on it if he does have it. good luck been there, am still there,tom

I bet the book is "Stop Walking on Eggshells" <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157224108X/o/qid=980347461/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/105-5693132-5491148" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157224108X/o/qid=980347461 /sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/105-5693132-5491148</A> There's also a website <A HREF="http://www.bpdcentral.com" TARGET=_blank>www.bpdcentral.com</A> I'm leery of diagnosing a problem spouse with an actual problem ... it's always seductive to think the other person is "crazy". The fact of the matter is that the "crazy" person could just as easily be "us". What did Pogo say? "We have met the enemy and he is us!" I believe the shrinks' name for the phenomenon is "projection".Of course, if we have absorbed enough of the BPD's poison, it's also easy for us to think *we're* the crazy ones. Once reality starts to distort in a relationship, it can take some untangling to figure out who's distorting, and how. Restoring focus and perspective may be even harder. Remember, from his point of view he just chose two lousy wives that he had to get away from ... got 'em with the same problems both times ... thinks to himself: "How do I keep picking the exact same losers?".But coming on this board gives you a greek chorus of voices that at least help you identify the issues better, so you don't take his foolishness to heart.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 24, 2001).]

Blindsided, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that acts this way. And your name, that's exactly how I felt the first couple of weeks, totally blindsided.Anyways, my revenge is not for me to get even with him for hurting me, it's to make him realize that there are consequences to divorce and what he's done, and make him think twice before doing it again, so he can't hurt another woman and child.With his first wife, he crushed her self esteem so throroughly that she never hired an attorney, just signed the paperwork, and put her tail between her legs and ran.With me, for the first month, he did the same thing to me, crushed my ego so thoroughly that I believed it was all my fault, and when he threatened me about hiring an attorney, my self esteem was so low, I agreed. I signed all the paperwork, didn't hire an attorney, same story all over again.So twice now, he just up and walks on his wife, for another woman, and...he gets all that he wants in the divorce too, is able to dictate how it goes. Well, not this time, I now will hire an attorney if it's not too late, and I am going to now go after the things that I and his child deserve. It's not going to be so easy for him this time. And maybe when he realizes that there are consequences to divorce, he will not be so quick to do it again.I didn't mean that I was going to give or discuss the book with him, I meant I wasn't even generous enough with my time right now to waste it reading about his problem. But now that you mention genetics, I will make a point to read it.He may not have BPD, but I do know he's currently being treated for PTSD, and I have read where sometimes it is common for a person to have both disorders.You know what's the craziest thing. Even though they went on a business trip together, they both filed for divorce at the same time, and they've been seen together, I still doubt!! Isn't that just crazy, I still having a hard time accepting that he did this a second time, and I start to think, maybe it is just a coincidence. I hate that I do that.

Mac- Just some history... H moved out, said there was no one else.. wouldn't give me his new phone number, called me every day, I couldn't go by his house, he wouldn't answer his cell phone and then would call me right back after I called him, came over for "affection" (lets call it that..), broke "dates" with me, had lots of secrets, etc.. Caught him in countless lies, etc.. Anyway, throughout all this I defended him to my family and friends saying.. "No, he says there isn't anyone else.." They just looked at me like I was nuts.. My counselor even said "sounds like another woman to me". I still believed... I had to see it face to face to believe it. The whole time I had been blaming myself for everything that had happened.. I mean heck.. if there wasn't anyone else, it must be me then... Ok, now for the kicker.. Last week he comes over with the divorce papers, we end up talking, I tell him I still love him, ends up fairly emotional. Two days later he claims that he has moved out of HIS house and let her stay there until she and her kids can find a place.. Now, he is calling me every day, says "I love you" again etc.. I am not sure what he wants now, or even what I would be willing to endure. I thought it was over and getting him out of my life last week. Come to find out now, after bringing the papers by and talking he doesn't want to file yet.. Would I take him back? I don't know. Part of me wants to, the other part of me doesn't know if I will ever be able to give him the trust a marriage deserves.. Give you any idea of how psycho I am feeling about now???!!! All I can really say is who knows how it will play out. Only God knows. I am taking things every day at a time. Right now, I am basically in Plan B, but might be willing to go back to Plan A if the opportunity comes along. I am pro-marriage, and if I think there is a chance for a "real marriage" then I will most likely go for it. If not, I will be forced to get a divorce.. As for the revenge issue.. I will only say, do what you can live with and don't worry about it. Just remember, you do have a child, and no matter what you think of him, I am sure that they adore him.. Just food for thought. If you need to talk.. arm6868@yahoo.com

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie: OK, I'm reading my own posts here, and I sound like a freak, anyone agree??"I love him, I hate him, I want to work it out, I'm better off without him." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mac,You're a normal, decent person trying to cope with a terrible situation. You don't deserve any of this pain, but it came your way anyway.I'm guessing that Tom may have your H pretty well nailed, he seems to know a lot about BPD. However, every situation is unique, and diagnosing from afar based on a comparison to our experience seems to carry a certain risk.Protect yourself and your child, work on yourself, don't let your H make you sink to his level. It seems to me that he's losing a lot more than you are if in fact your marriage is irretrievably broken.IMO, the truth will come out. There's plenty of time to be angry and do what you think you need to do. It's VERY understandable for you to be angry...just don't rashly do anything that will come back to bite you and your child in the end. This doesn't mean you can't stand up for your rights and needs, just be cautious about decisions made in the heat of anger.I wish things were not this way for you. Good luck,Steve

Well, I have calmed down in the last couple of days. I no longer want revenge against him, he's not worth it. But I still at certain times have doubts about whether he is having an affair or not, one day I'm certain that he is, the next day I'm iffy, so I am having him watched. Not to use against him in court, or anything like that, just for my peace of mind, so that I can be 100% sure there is an affair. Then, although I am not trying to say I was the perfect wife and didn't have any part in the marriage ending, but at least I can stop blaming myself completely for the marriage ending. I mean someone who can do this twice in less than 6 years to two wives, and blatently lie about it and act like they are doing nothing wrong, obviously has no morals. It's like he feels no remorse at all. What kind of an example is that for his daughter?As far as BPD, I have done some reading about it, and I have my doubts. He isn't an angry or rageful person. It's more like two personalities lately, which is probably just more of a case of he's leading two different lives right now.

The Dynamics of Marital Disintegration is a good article you probably should read: <A HREF="http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp</A> It also mentions a book called Sudden Endings that people on this site have spoken well about. I'm glad you're feeling better but I'm sorry things aren't getting much better for you.

Sorry, it's been awhile since I've posted. Well, the affair has been confirmed, not by him of course, he still completely denies it, even when caught red handed, but in my mind anyways it's confirmed.A person who works with him called me and told me that that he and the OW are definitely a couple and that they think that nobody knows, but actually pretty much everyone they work with knows. He's the boss, she his employee. They've been seen holding hands hailing a cab outside a company party. From what I've been told, a couple of employees are looking for other jobs because they don't respect him as a boss anymore and don't want to work for him. And finally, he spent the night at her house last Sat. night. I'm sure he stays there all the time, but I actually have proof of it Sat. And the final straw, I found out the other day, that throughout our 6 year relationship, he has always been in contact with his first wife, with whom he has no children, so no reason to stay in contact. It wouldn't have bothered me if I knew about it, but the fact that he hid it. That to me was more betraying than the affair. I felt as if he was never committed to this marriage at all. I'm not sure he knows what committment means.So, I'm done. He was the one who filed for the divorce, I didn't want it. But I give up. I have finished the rest of my paperwork, filed it all, and now just have to wait until mid March for the court date. March seemed so soon a couple of weeks ago, I couldn't believe it was all going to be all over so quickly, now, it seems a long way off to wait to go on with my life.He still is verbally abusive, like a Jekyll/Hyde. One day apologetic and mature, the next day yells at me, cusses at me in front of my child, called me a dumb [censored] and gaunt and ugly in front of our D. Like it was my choice to lose weight from being heart broken!I am completely done. Can't even work up tears over him anymore. I just reached a place where even if he begged, he couldn't ever come home again. I would never ever trust him again. If he could deceive me for 6 years, he could easily do it again, and I can't risk my daughter and I going through this again.So, actually I am beginning to look forward to my future. I feel that yes, I made some mistakes while we were married, but nothing that can't be changed with some work on my part, and I can again find love, but this time with someone who is worthy of my love and trust, who will be a great father to my child, and really believes in committment, marriage, and family.So, for now, I am signing off. I'm sure I will read posts here from time to time. I feel for all of you, this is the most painful experience I think anyone can go through, maybe only losing a child could be worse. But I have noticed, that when I move on with my life, I feel strong. But when I spend too much time here, I start to get down about the situation again and my self esteem dips. So for my own well being, I think it's time to move on. I respect all of your for working so hard to save your marriages, it's just not the case with me.Thank you all for your help and advice. I am sorry that things couldn't have been different. Wish they could have been, but really, I just don't think Plan A/Plan B could have helped me. He just moves from gal to gal and always will. Thanks again, and take care.