Please give me some idea of what you are talking about for romantic things to make deposits. W<P>hen he left, it was a week before our anniversary. I had already bought a present, so I gave it too him anyways, he didn't want it. <P>A couple of weeks later, I bought him a book called "Married and Alone" because that is how he said he felt. He said he'd take it, but wasn't going to read it, so I might as well return it and get my money back.<P>I can't think of anything I could do small enough that he won't think it's just another attempt for me to win him back, which he has said will never happen.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie:<BR><B>Please give me some idea of what you are talking about for romantic things to make deposits.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, the examples you cite look to him as though they target what *you* want (the marriage). They have little to do with what *he* wants.<P>It's hard to throw something back in someone's face when *you* in fact *do* want it. I don't know what *he* wants, but I bet you have a pretty good idea. Maybe it's a hot new fishing lure. Or a gift subscription to a car magazine. <P>Chances are cards and letters won't help you yet ... you need subtlety ... a book on parenting when you're divorced (one with the right anti-divorce spin) might be a good idea. <P>You could take your daughter to a portrait studio and have a good new picture taken so that he could keep it on his wall at home and his desk at work. <P>A good attack plan hits the enemy where his intelligence and defenses are weak. Those soft spots are his *own* personal preferences--if direct marketers can do this pretty well based on scant data, how in the world can you miss, knowing him as well as you do?<P>

Oh my God, you hit the nail on the head. I have an appt. tonight to get my D's pix taken, and she must have mentioned it to him when she was with him on Sat., cause when he dropped her off, he asked about it, and I could tell it bothered him that he was being left out of something that we typically all did together as a family. <P>And I was planning to send them to everyone on his side of the family, as well as give him some. <P>I will spend some time tonight thinking about other things to do. I suppose a Valentines gift is not a good idea though!!<P>Thanks for your help, I will give it a try.

Update, what I knew in my head, but kept not accepting in my heart is true. There is another woman. <P>A friend of mine was at a restaurant the other night and saw him with the woman he went on the business trip with. This is twice. He left his first wife cause he was attracted to me, now left me for her. The weirdest part, she looks exactly like me. My friend thought it was me at first.<P>How can he live with himself. How can he look his daughter in the eye. <P>Now I know the true reason he keeps blaming me. It eases his guilt. If he can make it all my fault, then he doesn't have to feel guilty.<P>Anyways, I'm going to let him hang himself. He has told everyone, my family, his family, friends, even my counselor that there's no one. But after the divorce is final, I will have no problem letting everyone know that this new girlfriend of his is not new at all, that she is the one he went on the business trip with three days before he walked out on his wife and daughter. No wonder he had to file for divorce so quickly. <P>Oh, I'm livid. Plan A my [censored]. He's done this twice now, and he'll do it again. He's not worth the salt in my tears these last two months and I wish him nothing but unhappiness for the rest of his life!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie:<BR><B>Oh, I'm livid. Plan A my [censored]. He's done this twice now, and he'll do it again. He's not worth the salt in my tears these last two months and I wish him nothing but unhappiness for the rest of his life!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That may not be the best choice for your child. But the choice is yours.<P>However, if you live in a state where money spent on her (or just the fact that he has her) is legally relevant; you may want to have a private detective gather some evidence. Check with your attorney--quickly!<P>

MacKenzie,<P>I'm really sorry about your bad news. You don't deserve this kind of pain.<P>I know you feel horrible right now, and I just read over your previous posts. It may surprise you to know that I'm somewhat more optimistic about your chances of saving your marriage now that it looks like there is another woman (assuming that his dinner with her really indicates a romance).<P>It's pretty common that people make very little progress with Plan A while an affair is ongoing. As painful as it is, I'd have been more concerned if there was no other person and you still couldn't make progress. Your job, if you do elect to continue trying, is to make yourself an attractive alternative for him to return to when the affair falls apart. The odds are on your side--affairs usually don't last.<P>To quote Sisyphus earlier in this thread, <BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Defeat does not occur when papers are filed. It does not occur when a judge declares the marriage dissolved. It does not occur when the WS starts seeing other people. It occurs when the BS gives up.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have seemed pretty pessimistic all along, but the odds on your side are pretty good if you want to see this thing through.<P>At least, wait a little while. Vent here, rather than saying anything to your husband which will hamper your chances of reconciliation. Yell and scream if you wish, but not at him. Don't burn your bridges just yet--you may feel differently later.<P>I'm so sorry it's this way. I know the path I'm advocating goes against your instincts, but I'm hoping it may help you avoid actions you'll regret.<P>You'll be in my thoughts and prayers.<P>Steve

Thanks all for your responses. I know I seemed callous yesterday, but you have to understand the background. <P>I knew him 6 years ago when he was married to his first wife. And one day he was married, the next day he simply said "I don't love you anymore." and walked away and never looked back and the divorce was final 30 days later (not much of a waiting period in that state).<P>Of course I'm the idiot who started dating him soon after, married him, had a child with him, and never thought for one moment he'd do it to me too.<P>And it's the same story all over again. Went on a business trip with this woman. I had no idea we had any problems. Came back from this business trip and simply said "I don't love you anymore." And went immediately to a hotel that day. When I asked about counseling he said no, when I asked if there was any chance for us, he said no. Once again, no looking back, just moves on.<P>He blamed his first wife for not being right for him, now he's been blaming all of this on me. What are the odds that the poor guy just has this terrible luck and marries these terrible women twice? I think he just always thinks he's found the perfect mate, then when they turn out to be not perfect, he moves on to the next one.<P>I am not going to put my daughter through this again 5 years from now, and I firmly believe he will do it again. At least now she's young and it won't be as hard on her as when she was an adolescent. Unfortunately, this woman has an even younger child, so if he does do it again in a few years, he will hurt this child too.<P>He has a problem with PTSD, and if anybody knows what that is, characteristics are to not form close bonds and emotional ties, and to just move from relationship to relationship.<P>Yes, I loved him, yes I trusted him, yes I wish things could have been different. But now it's time for me to protect my child, I will not let him hurt her again. So, I apologize to everyone here who believes in Plan A/B, but I just can't do it. It is better for me to go on and live a new life with a partner who believes in the committment of marriage, who would be willing to go to counseling if the marriage was in trouble. <P>Too late, I did some major love busters last night, and I feel justified in doing so. But you know what's funny...when he wanted the divorce and I didn't, that was fine with him. Now that I've told him I want the divorce, he's not too happy about that, and he sure is curious about why I'm not interested in talking to him anymore.<P>Anyways, I'm not even going to tell him what I know. He can just wonder why the new attitude with me, and as far as his family is concerned, he'll just hang himself when it comes out that he's dating the woman he went to Atlanta with. After he told me, his family, and even my counselor that there was absolutely no one else.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie:<BR><B>Yes, I loved him, yes I trusted him, yes I wish things could have been different. But now it's time for me to protect my child, I will not let him hurt her again. So, I apologize to everyone here who believes in Plan A/B, but I just can't do it.<P>Too late, I did some major love busters last night, and I feel justified in doing so. But you know what's funny...when he wanted the divorce and I didn't, that was fine with him. Now that I've told him I want the divorce, he's not too happy about that, and he sure is curious about why I'm not interested in talking to him anymore.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No one has the right to tell you how much cr*p you must withstand from him. But you must realize that he has within him the capacity for change, introspection, and the realization that he is going wrong again.<P>It seems as though you're already going to Plan B. That's fine if you don't want to be married to this lout. It is a view shared by plenty of very smart and very reasonable people. It may be the right view for this situation.<P>But you were on Marriagebuilders because you wanted to fix your marriage, not throw it away. You don't know whether this is still an emotional affair, or has progressed to being a physical affair. You don't know what OW's part in it is. Is she a reluctant or wholehearted participant. <P>Sure, now you don't want the marriage. And maybe cold, toughlove is the best way to treat this situation. But you will swing the other way soon; and the best approach is to try to dampen the oscillations in your emotions now ... realize that for your daughter's sake you will probably be willing to reapproach him ... and when you're pining for the relationship you've lost, realize that you really want it for your daughter's sake, not your own; you *could* live alone or make a new life for yourself with someone else. By better handling your own emotions, you will be able to avoid errors in your behavior with respect to *him*.<P>If he wants you back, he will be willing to admit to the affair and its extent, and he'll eat a lot of dirt to get you and your daughter back. I'm not betting either way, just suggesting that even if you close the door, it may not be time to bolt it, nail wood across it, and push furniture in front of it.

Mack,<P>If you read my first post on this thread, I am with you all the way! My first response to your discovery day was "I was right in his pattern repetition!"<P>I would say that he has to want to change, and if he did, it would be a long time, and it would be difficult.<P>My X has lots of psych problems, and it is getting worse as she gets older. So, I support you in your decision, and think you should start the paper work, and rake him over the coals, and that would be the only way he would ever break the cycle. Especially since you havee a child.<P>Find a shark lawyer, and take him to the cleaners. Do not be nice, he needs to hit bottom, and he will hate you for it, but in the long run, the F he will get will be the only 2x4 he has gotten to take responsibility for his behavior.<P>good luck!<P>I wish I could take the same path, but in my situation, it would be impossible to win, and devastating in the end.<P>tom<BR>

Thanks for your support. Unfortunately, when my self esteem was low and I was not feeling good about myself (plus the fact I couldn't afford an attorney), he and I already went ahead and filed a permanent seperation agreement and parenting plan, so I think I'm done in that arena. But I am going to check into it.<P>He didn't abuse me in the settlement, feeling too guilty I think, so I have primary custody of our child, he has visitation, and he took 2/3 of the debt, me 1/3. But I did say I wouldn't get any of his pension, but then he can't have any of mine either. <P>So I live in a no fault state, and he filed for the divorce on 12/12, so he gets it no matter if he is having an affair or not, but I do think the judges tend to sway more in my favor as far as property division and support in light of an affair, something else I will check into with an attorney. But all in all, I didn't get a bad deal.<P>I still firmly believe that my daughter would be better off with both of her natual parents in the home, raising her together, but as I said before, I just don't feel I can take the chance of him doing this to us again another 5 years down the road.<P>He has no desire to reconcile anyways, he has told me that a hundred times. He's in the grass is greener stage right now, and I can't wait until it ends, and he wakes up and realized what he's done, again!!

Update, called the courts where this woman resides, lo and behold, she filed for divorce too. Isn't that weird. Went on a business trip both married, came back, both file for a divorce.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie:<BR><B>Update, called the courts where this woman resides, lo and behold, she filed for divorce too. Isn't that weird. Went on a business trip both married, came back, both file for a divorce. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you want to commit a <I><B>REAL</B></I> lovebuster, start conspiring with the other BS (part of me is gleeful at the wicked Haydukian [George Hayduke--author of many "Revenge" manuals] possibilities, the other part knows better).<P>

Actually, my best revenge will be to go on and live a good life with my daughter, and see the look on his face when he comes out of the fog. And also to know that I tried hard, no matter when he lied to me, manipulated me, blamed me, I took it and continued to be friendly to him and let him know I still wanted the marriage. But this is the last straw. I deserve better, and so does my daughter.<P>But there is the revenge side. Don't think I'm not thinking about hiring a PI, and mailing a pic to him/her/his mom/her ex. Maybe in Valentine's Day cards?? Will have to check the budget. Not sure he's worth my extra cash. Although, it may help out in court anyways. Wow, I am love busting all over the place huh. Probably time for me to quit posting before I make you all mad.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie:<BR><B>But there is the revenge side. Don't think I'm not thinking about hiring a PI, and mailing a pic to him/her/his mom/her ex. Maybe in Valentine's Day cards?? Will have to check the budget. Not sure he's worth my extra cash. Although, it may help out in court anyways. Wow, I am love busting all over the place huh. Probably time for me to quit posting before I make you all mad.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I got more revenge pent up in me than a busload of Hollywood's worst villains. And the capacity to deliver some of it for the cost of a stamp.<P>In reality, what you and the other BS should do is touch base to compare notes. Either of you may know things that the other needs to know. But don't cook up any active mischief for your respective WS's. Let their "thing" run its course. <P>I wouldn't tell the WS's about it either. Why would you want to voluntarily discard a secret advantage?<P>I got a kick out of your Valentine idea. Of course, it's your choice whether to implement it. Speaking for myself only, given that it's not physically harmful, disproportionate, or collaterally harmful to innocents; I would find it hard to resist.<P>

I have thought of contacting the other BS, but I'm only holding back just in case I'm wrong. What if it really is just a coincidence, then I go and call him and nothing is happening. That would be a major mistake. Even though I'm about 99% sure, I want to be 100% sure before I do something like that.<P>Yes, that Valentine's Day idea is almost too good to pass up, we will have to see how the next couple of weeks go, if he keeps lying to me and manipulating me, it just might have to happen.<P>If he would just fess up, I would let it go, but he actually looked me straight in the eye Thurs. and told me nothing was going on, then looked my counselor straight in the eye on Sat. and told him the same thing. He has absolutely no morals.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie:<BR><B>[H]e actually looked me straight in the eye Thurs. and told me nothing was going on, then looked my counselor straight in the eye on Sat. and told him the same thing. He has absolutely no morals.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps he doesn't understand the concept of "emotional affair" and believes that without physical contact there is nothing that damages a marriage. That's not a lack of morals, that's a lack of education about what marriages need in order to survive.<P>If someone is confiding in a person of the opposite sex who isn't a trained therapist and who *might* be a sex partner, that's like watching <I>Springer</I> to learn how to be a successful, urbane professional. Nothing could be more self-sabotaging. But if you don't know better, well, you're going to deny, deny, deny if you're questioned--because "nothing" has happened. You'll rationalize that your friendship is no one's business, and you'll keep right on sinking into the extramarital morass.

But do two people actually file for divorce from their spouses that quickly after a business trip for only an emotional affair? He moved out 3 days after return. Wouldn't they need more, to be sure, to actually make the leap into divorce country. I mean mine filed right away, my divorce will be final in 6 weeks. There's only a 90 day waiting period here. One would think that for an emotional affair, maybe they would seperate, see how things go, then file for divorce. <P>Obviously I don't have a clue since I have not done this, but I really think it's more than emotional. I just think he's really good at rationalizing this in his own mind, so that even he believes he's not doing anything wrong. He tells me all the time what a sh___ wife I was. So I think he figures that it's not his fault he did it, it's mine.<P>I'm starting to think borderline personality disorder, in light of that this is a pattern, and also him admitting to my counselor that he does crazy things to me, nice then mean, nice then mean.<P>Who knows? I sure don't.

BPD, has many facets, and he could have it.<P>There is a good book, Borderline Personality Disorder - When the one You love has it. or something close to that. It has a very colorful cover.<P>Get it and read it, he might have it, and I would just go with my last post, if someone can flip on a dime in 3 days, he's so unstable, forget it completely.<P>tom

Three days for me, one day for his first wife. I knew him when he did it to her, she was crushed, was in counseling for a long time, as I am crushed now. And he shows no remorse other than basically agreeing to whatever I asked in the divorce paperwork.<P>I worry for my daughter. When she gets to adolescence, and acts out, will he just write her off too and coldly walk away?<P>I will try to find that book, thank you. Although after all that I found out today, I'm not feeling generous enough to spend any amount of time concentrating on his problems, and I don't really want to feel any sympathy for him, which I know I would if I started to believe he has a mental disorder. Maybe tomorrow.

OK, I'm reading my own posts here, and I sound like a freak, anyone agree??<P>"I love him, I hate him, I want to work it out, I'm better off without him."<P>Who am I? I used to be so stable!!