How many different reasons have you been given for why WS did what they did?

I posted this on GQII, but wanted to post it here as well...

Hello all, it has been a long time since I have posted anything. I have a question that is all at the same time tearing me up and kinda funny. I’m just wondering, for the BS’s out there, how many different excuses have you been given for why your WS has left? I have been given about a dozen or so DIFFERENT reasons for why she left. Everything from me being emotionally abusive and controlling to use have some financial difficulties to the latest reason of her thinking I had some kind of emotional internet affair. For those people in my life who really know me, all of these are completely ridiculous excuses.

Just a brief history of my situation, my WW had the stereotypical A with the neighbor. He is a slightly older divorced guy who has custody of his 8 yo daughter. This thing developed almost by the script, they became acquainted as neighbors, then friends at neighborhood get togethers, my wife started offering to help him watch his daughter on some days (as she was a stay at home mom), so on and so on. Suffice to say I became suspicious when I had to start dragging her home at 4 in the morning from his house, then getting met with anger and rage from her… it is all so “20/20” looking back, all the signs were there. Anyway, when given the opportunity to end the A and repair our family (plan A…done marginally well) she chose to move out. When given the opportunity to come home (plan B letter) she tried to take the kids away from me with a bogus order for protection. When still given the opportunity to fix things (I did another sort of plan B type letter when she actually got her own apartment) she decided to file for divorce a week and a half before Christmas. I did a marginally well plan B, but it all seems rather pointless now. Basically she is having this A right out in the open in front of the world… she lives at his house when she doesn’t have the kids and brings the kids around him when she does have the kids. We are all still in the same neighborhood and nobody seems to care what she has done… they are all still friends with her and the OM…like nothing ever happened. With the exception that they seem to shun me…!!! Currently we are in the middle of a bitter, bitter divorce and custody battle, I can’t wait till it is over. I don’t think I would ever take her back, I found out that this wasn’t the first time she has cheated on me. Yet I terribly miss us being a family, I hope this gets better soon.

Anyhow, back to the question… I know from plan A that I am not to believe anything of what she says, and for the most part I don’t. But she keeps telling me that she has never hated someone as much as she hates me, that she has never met someone who was so emotionally damaging to her as I am… so on and so on. The common theme here is that the reason she left was: A) not because of the OM and B) was never her fault, it was all because of me. I’m just wondering how many others have gotten this treatment? How many others have gotten this litany of reasons why the WS has done what they did, all the reasons different…and yet all your fault? Give me you thoughts here, I can’t help but laugh sometimes at the outrageous-ness of the excuses she comes up with for why she left, I’m just wondering if others have had this happen to them. Thanks.

Reading your story was about like reading my own except the OM in my case lives a 2 hour drive away. My WW has told me that she left me because 1.) I was physically abusive even though she could not name one instance when I ever laid a hand on her in anger, could be because it never happened. 2.) She could not live with my anger anymore- I work in law enforcement and coworkers get put out with me because no matter what is happening, I don't go balistic or even get excited. I remain cool and calm. 3.) She can't live in fear of my wrath anymore- see #2. Her leaving has nothing to do with her A, she claims she didn't start "dating" him til after she moved out. I have evidence that indicates otherwise and there was an EA if not a PA going back to mid November '03. I just think this is the fog and alien abudction I have been reading about here.

WMWB,

Hey! Just saw your post here and wanted to stop bye and say HI ... you and I have already come up with .. what ? 15 similar replys? it's all the Fog ...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lost&Confussed:
 WMWB,

...you and I have already come up with .. what ? 15 similar replys? it's all the Fog ... <hr /></blockquote>Yeah I know...but it still sucks and it still gets me doubting myself sometimes.

I just ran on to this on this same forum under the topic "Dating while divorcing???":
TR--Have you ever read this article by Dr. Harley?

Why Women Leave Men

"I hurt all the time because I feel alone and abandoned."

"My husband is no longer my friend."

"The only time he pays attention to me is when he wants sex."

"He is never there for me when I need him the most."

"When he hurts my feelings he doesn't apologize."

"He lives his life as if we weren't married; he rarely considers me."

We're like ships passing in the night, he goes his way and I go mine."

"My husband has become a stranger to me, I don't even know who he is anymore."

"He doesn't show any interest in me or what I do."

Women tend to be more concerned about their marriages than men. They buy most of the books on marriage to try to improve them and initiate most marriage counseling. They often complain about their marriages to their closest friends and sometimes to anyone who will listen. And they also file for divorce twice as often as men.

Why do women seem so dissatisfied with marriage? What do they want from their husbands? What bothers them so much about marriage that most are willing to risk their families' future to escape it?

The most common reason women give for leaving their husbands is "mental cruelty." When legal grounds for divorce are stated, about half report they have been emotionally abused. But the mental cruelty they describe is rarely the result of their husband's efforts to drive them crazy. It is usually husbands being indifferent, failing to communicate and demonstrating other forms of neglect.

Another reason for divorce reported almost as much as mental cruelty is "neglect" itself. These include both emotional abandonment and physical abandonment. Husbands that work away from the home, sometimes leaving their wives alone for weeks at a time, fall into this category.

When all forms of spousal neglect are grouped together, we find that it is far ahead of all the other reasons combined that women leave men. Surprisingly few women divorce because of physical abuse, infidelity, alcoholism, criminal behavior, fraud, or other serious grounds. In fact, I find myself bewildered by women in serious physical danger refusing to leave men that threaten their safety.

Simply stated, women leave men when they are neglected. Neglect accounts for almost all of the reasons women leave and divorce men.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html

There is the link to the rest of the article--maybe you should read it---and see if maybe from your wife's perspective--the marriage was over before you even recognized a problem--

most men I know--don't know there is a problem in their marriage until their wives are telling them they want a divorce--

Sure hits home with this topic for me.

DJ-

Thanks for posting that article, I read it 9 months ago when I first suspected a problem. I know that my WW felt neglected to degrees, but everyone says she was rather unrealistic in her expectaions. She wanted the world yet didn't want me to go out and get it. She looked at me going to work as playtime with the guys... I don't know what i could possibly have done differently. I feel as though I've bent over backwards...from day one...to please her. What did I get for the trouble? She stuck around just long enough for her to find what she thinks is a better deal...then out the door she went.

[ May 17, 2004, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]

I heard it all, it got worse as I guess her affair with her co-worker deepened.
The last 6 months we were together sort of went like this.
She wasn't happy, she wanted her space, she was done.
Then it became she never got a chance to live on her own, then she didn't love me, that she never loved me, that it was big mistake getting married 17 years ago.
Then the last 2 months together it became, I was abusive, emotionally, physically, that she hated me, just give me a divorce, that she wished I was
dead, she hated me, did I mention she hated me.
Then she filed restraining order on me, claiming abuse, saying I was mentally ill, that I had threatened my children. That I drug her by the hair and slammed her face into the floor....7 years ago, that I raped her....18 years ago....
t

WMYWB????
I understand what you are saying. I feel like I got the same treatment after 22 years together. The vile, hateful b!tch that I have seen since moveout day doesn't resemble the one I married. This is not her first A but I didn't find that out till after moveout day. 22 years together and she dosen't have enough respect for me to tell me the truth. And its all my fault. I feel like a ping pong ball some days I want my, my family, my life back and some I wonder how far away from her can I get. If I didn't have children, I know I would be gone.

continuing....that all the marital debt was my fault....that I never made enough money....that I was not a good parent....that my youngest was
neglected by me....that all I did was sleep....
...........It seems to me that the more the get involved with the other person the more they slam the spouse..........
I am as much to blame as her for us letting our marriage get to that point, but she started talking to her co-worker (male/married), of course he is not going to say anything about trying to work on her marriage if he had other plans, plans with her.
So now I am divorced, lost my job, she still has r/o on me....she never looks at me, but she sure doesn't look very happy to me.
Both of us love our kids very much.
It has torn me up having to say goodbye to my kids everyday, then having them everyother weekend.
I am sure neither one of us wanted a family like this, I don't, but she has done so much for it ever to go back....I don't think she wants it back, but I don't think she is happy with the split up family either.
She really just wanted to replace me with the OM, then never have to deal with me again.
But maybe, just maybe the missing the kids will catch up with her.
I know I could forgive her, my friends say I would be stupid to for all that she has done to me, to bascically try and destroy me.
But I don't like this broken family....does she?

My WW actually said to me yesterday that "...you just don't get it, he is not the reason I left you." I told her she was wrong (I know...big misake and an LB), I told her that everything she has said and done regarding her A is a total stereotype...it has all been said and done by a million other people in exactly the same spot she is in. Her reply...."Has the stereotype been controlled and emotionally abused? Has the stereotype had to endure financial hardships like I have?" Ummmmm, yeah...according to them they have!!!! I swear, there must be a script written down somewhere that they are reading from. It is amazing how they all basically say the same thing.

Ah yes, the I-love-you-but-am-not-in-love-with-you speech. Or the infamous I'm-unhappy becoming I've-been-unhappy-for-years to I've-never-been-happy. Geez Louise, you think that the WS could come up with something freaking original!!!!

Rustfirefly and WantmyWifeBack, I am the female BS but have heard all the same male bovine fecal matter. Other examples:

I am now accused of keeping our son from his Dad (by his Dad) and I think that he is a bad father. Huh? I never said that - in fact, I'm the one who called *him* to see if he wanted to see his son on his days off.

STBX tried to put out a restraining order on me, called the cops twice when I came to house to pick up our son (at the time legally mandated by visitation agreement), called the cops to accuse me of property damage (no charges filed), blah, blah, blah.

And all this because he had at least six affairs and showed no signs of remorse, no ability to work on the marriage and no intention of ever stopping having affairs. Um, can we say lack of personal responsibility here?

Just my .02 to let you know that it happens to both sexes in a marriage. I would NEVER draw up a restraining order on STBX unless he was a danger to me or our son. He's infuritating, but not dangerous. Actually, he's kind of pathetic, but that's another post.

I am concerned that he doesn't see his son and encourage him to do so. Yes, I do want the visitation on paper because he has lied so much to me, to his lawyer, to my lawyer, to the court ,TO EVERYONE, that it is the only way I can protect myself. Heck, I even get him to sign letters when I take son with me on extended weekend trips so he will not accuse me of kidnapping - based on his love of calling the cops everytime I breathe, he would, too.

Just wanted to offer my empathy and support. I'm walking in your moccasins and, man, do they pinch!

How many, huh?

Here goes:

1. Our marriage [16 years] was on a trial basis.
2. You're an inadequate wife.
3. You knew this would happen.
4. What did you expect, you married a rocker.
5. You know I've always been a loner.
6. Your elbows are too big. [WTF?]
7. You'd never make a good mother.
8. You took my Robben Ford tape without asking me.
9. and on, and on, and on ....

The absurdities in his reasons were never ending, and most of them were a kin to blame.

You just have to do the best you can. Never stop believing in the goodness in yourself and try your best to forgive.

Lv,
Jo

[ May 17, 2004, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Well here goes:

1)I was unhappy for 30 years..(man why did it take you so long to realize this)

2) You were aggressive and controlling..(he always had his freedom to persue whatever he wanted from rock bands, car racing, to helicopter flying..you name it I let him do it)..I let him contol everything from the finances to what channel we watched on TV...usually the friggin space channel..suspect that is why he seems like such an alien now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

3) I never felt loved...( at times neither did I but never thought about crossing the line and having an A)

and the rest of the list is just about what you hear from everyone else who has posted on this thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Amazing how we BS's heard so many of the same things.

Doesn't surprise me or anyone everything is about us. Not once is there a word about them!

Yes, the wayward spouse puts blame elsewhere, for they don't see themselves has having a problem.

God, sees, God watches, God replies!

Oh, man, I can so relate to all of you. I have been a "lurker" for several months and don't post very often. I am quite certain that my husband is about to file and it is almost a relief. We are married 33 years, high school sweethearts, grew up in the same neighborhood and have raised 3 amazing sons. We are both almost 54 y.o. and he became involved with an unhappily married coworker in October 03. I asked him to move out on 3/29, he made half-hearted attempt to break with her on 5/1 that might have lasted 2 days and I have now told him that if he wants a divorce he should just f***ing do it 'cause I was sick of playing his game. When we have talked about his "girlfriend" and her manipulative, spoiled 8 y.o. daughter and I asked what attracted him to her that would make him trash 33 yr of marriage he tells me she is a cute girl with a good personality that has had such unhappy relationships! Ok, cute and with a good personality...sounds like junior high to me.

This woman has divorced her husband and they just sold their house so now I am certain she will start putting the screws to him to divorce his wife and make her the happy little woman in his life. Do I sound bitter? Well, maybe a little.

Oh, I forgot to mention that during the course of my discovery of this affair he admitted to me that he has really never been faithful...this is likely the 9th affair and there were other "flings" as well. I have reached the point that even though I love the man I was married to it is probably better for me to move on...how could I ever trust him again? This man that looks like my husband and sounds like my husband has become something so alien to me!!

Wantmywifeback....Wow can I relate... I was with my exhusband for 18 years - married for 15 - when I found out he was having an affair - now three years after initial d-day and divorced 1 1/2years... All of the blame still is put on me... He had an affair - took me 6 months to find out the affair was with the lady that lives next door to me and continues to live there.. Both of us are divorced now... Of course each of them deny any other than a friendship until last October and now they are dating - but it is still a secret to most people- thinking maybe they are ashamed of what they did - anyways - I got the I am not in love with you - we haven't gotten along in years (news to me) - I love you but definately not in love with you - I am controlling - I didn't ever want to do anything - We have nothing in common - I could go on and on and on.. But pretty much he has in his own little warped mind - rewritten our entire life together - to hear him talk it is a wonder any children were born out of this union.... Anyways living next door to her - makes it 100 times worse because I look at her everyday - though I suppose I am lucky because he never goes there ever... But again - it is her exhusbands fault her kids don't like my exhusband and my fault my kids don't like her - go figure - They will never accept any blame because well I am not sure they could live with themselves if they accepted any of the guilt.. I really feel for you - because they are in the neighborhood together - fortunately for me - none of my neighbors ever talk to her... So that is good - but it is so damn uncomfortable... ugggggg- but I figure if I move out he will move into her house - and never in my lifetime - I will tell you .... But there is no reason behnind what they did - that ever makes sense... You will not be able to figure it out - so don't bother....

....Oh....I forgot to add what my WS said about me as a parent, "I was nothing more than a sperm donor"....................................

Hi Guys,

About neglect, I don't think men "understand"...

when there is lack of love... lack of emotional connectedness... lack of the simplicity of humility and softness and tenderness... a woman begins to feel pain...

Eventually, when the pain increases... love turns to hate... cause the pain is too great to bear.

A woman tells a man... and he thinks it's no big deal... cause he cannot feel what she feels.

A woman tells a man... and he ignores her.

A woman tells a man... and he tries to get her to think and feel (not feel) like he does.

And the pain becomes too great... and love turns to hate.

Just telling you how women feel - why they turn to other men to reduce the pain of the worst form of abuse - neglect - cause, to us, it feels just like hate. And that's why hate in response - all the stuff you are suffering - doesn't feel "wrong" to a woman who has suffered so much.

Lack of love, to us, is hate.

Does that make sense to you men?

Laura

LL:

My answer is yes and know..I think you ask a good quetion here because it gets to the heart of MB principles.

First I would agree that a woman feels much pain, like the pain I felt when i discovred my wifes third affair,but I feel that hate is temporary and a very strong word,but it's the INDIFFERECE of a man that forces a woman to look elsewhere for validation.

As I see it, this where the lack of communication of needs and how they should be delivered come into the equation. Discussion and honesty are hallmarks, knowing that each need may not be delivered 100%. But that is the goal.

Turning to someone else is really not the answer. It tells me that the WS has their own issues to address...because ultimately..most of the time...they will find their current extramarital situation untenable. It just compounds the issues and problems.

For her it was not hate, but incredible disappointment that I would not deliver.

But, I could not. I was still in withdrawl from her prior two affairs.She failed to recognize that or help me understand.

I take my share of the blame...but not for her acions.

I never hated her. I just really never had a good idea of what she really wanted from me.
I suspect she did not really know either. Because she never communicated what she really wanted.

sorry..yes and no

Thanks Gregg,

I'm not saying I agree at all with what women choose to do. I'm very supportive of anyone who has the grace, the courage, and the perseverance to "turn it around"... and I see some great examples of that here. Really great men and women trying. And I think that that covers everyone here - even those struggling with having an A along with those struggling with those who are having an A. Those who are here, to me, are trying to varying degree to overcome hurt and pain and to recover themselves - their ability to feel loved, to give and receive love - and the ability to have healthy relationships.

So kudos to you all!

Indifference probably doesn't feel like hate - but, to be honest, to me it is. The most callous of hate - because it doesn't even express conflict. It just gives the "silent treatment" verbally or emotionally. It's like torture. It's so cruel.

Dr. Harley says that the state of withdrawal is a shutting down of a marrriage - a greater progression towards "divorce" than conflict.

So indifference is emotional withdrawal - worse than lashing out - more pronounced than verbal or other abuse - it's the worst.

That's why, to a woman (speaking for myself) - it's hate. It may not feel like hate to the one being indifferent - but let me tell you from the receiving end - it's mental emotional cruelty greater than other forms.

So even if that doesn't make sense on Mars, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , it does seem to make sense on Venus.

Do I think men are trying to "hate"?

If I was going to guess, I would guess that they are stuffing their own hurt feelings, trying to be "strong"... trying not to "take it out" on their wives... trying to "stop" the emotional rollercoaster ride... by simply... withdrawing their feelings.

And that's when the rollercoast flies off the track and crashes to the bottom of a deep ditch in a flaming ball of fire and smoke... to a woman.

To a man, he probably was just trying to "help"???

Not sure.

I'm from Venus. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And I know that the sexes aren't always intentionally trying to destroy one another's love for each other... sometimes the planets... just collide!!

And that's not to minimize or justify or make it "okay" for a wife to divorce or have an A on her husband. It's not okay. But I certainly know how nazi it feels to have a man become stoic and refuse to communicate and shut down.

I'd rather be punched.

God bless,

Laura

WMWB... hmmmm how many of these haven't we heard? none that I can tell ..

LL, You know I do agree with you on a few of your points. BUT, NOT ALL MEN DO THAT .. it was my STBXW that pulled away .. and made me feel unloved and unwanted. I might have missed the warning signs .. but I told my STBX EVERYDAY how much she was loved .. I also showed her in the things I did from day to day ..

I can tell you there are alot of men in these forums that yes .. addmittedly have
" neglected " our spouse at some point in time, not meaning to .. and most of us are here trying to make it better or to move on with our lives. Learning from our past mistakes ... JMHO

WMWB .. hey I just heard from one of my old neighbors that my STBXW is planning on moving in with the OM ... and that I can have the house .. HMMMMM that's just what I want to do .. move next door to them .. wouldn't that just be a big happy family <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - again I ask what DOES go thru there heads? The WS I mean ...

My ex said..

1) "25 years. Im like the military 25 years and Im retired"

2) I abused him.......lets see......he

broke my finger..had to have wedding ring cut off in middle of night because of swelling

gave me black eye, and split lip (on fathers day..when I was pregnant with first child)

Gave me STD..2 months after we were married..his friend "dragged" him to a prostitute

twisted my wrist and had to have it xrayed..he threw me out of car in pouring rain 1/4 mile from hospital

ripped clock radio from wall in dark and smashed it down on my chest repeatedly while I was laying in bed

had 2 overdoses and I had to give him artificial respiration in front of my 2 screaming children, on Thanksgiving, with parade going by and hundreds of onlookers gawking at my private hell

rape

broken heirloom antiques..from my side of family

Dragged me out of bed at 2am and made me sit there and watch him sharpen his knives (he is a chef)and show me how sharp they were

threw an ax at me

threw a 6 foot fence post at me

chokings

punches

OW

Lies

interrogation by police for his hit and run

mental abuse

sexual abuse

mental abuse from his dysfunctional family

financial problems due to his multiple DUI's

Other woman

etc..............

3)He said I made him "feel bad" could it be..UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM he feels bad because he is guilty of a lot of crapola??????

I dont think fog is the proper term here. I need a stronger term. mabe he was throwing up some "quickrete" in the middle of that fog

Reading your posts, I'm really grateful I don't have to live next door. My H and OW have moved about 50 miles away, which is a great relief.

But I still feel the same self doubts. I heard the same type of accusations from my S(omeday)TBXH. Logically, I know it's his guilt feelings about his own behavior, but I still feel this irrational need at times for him to acknowledge that it wasn't all my fault and that I'm not the horrible person he said I was.

I've spent literally years here trying to sort out my part in all this from his. I've bent over backwards to be reasonable. I've supported H and the OW for 3 years (while neither of them has worked) and I'm doing both my H's former job and my own as well as paying their rent directly to their landlord. I'm not writing this to sound like a martyr but to show how far I've let his insults push me. I've given him way too much power in my life, but I'm getting better.

Today, I'm much less influenced by what he says about me. He's been dragging the divorce out for years now, but last week set a court date to demand a large sum of $$ from me, prior to the final divorce, so that he can purchase a house. Once again, he's portrayed me as the bad guy and himself as the victim. But, this time, it barely phased me.

In the past I would've bent over backwards to prove him wrong, but today I'm no longer falling for his manipulation. My position is, settle and you can have all the money that you're due, in the meantime, I'll keep sending you your biweekly checks and paying your rent(all of this is now being deducted from his share of the final settlement), but that's it.

Selfishness and self-centeredness are human traits that belong to all of us, both male and female. The same is true of the desire for love, trust, and companionship. While I know there are differences between the sexes, both have affairs, both behave selfishly, both try to justify their own behavior by blaming their victims, and both hurt when they've been betrayed.

It's a great relief to know that others feel the same way we do and that others have gone through the same experiences that we have and not only survived, but thrived. Look at your WS's. Would you trade places with them? Despite all the pain my H put me through and how much I've lost, I don't envy him in the least.

"Experience is not what happens to a man. It is what a man does with what happens to him." -- Aldous Huxley

LL;

Emotionqal withdrawl is not indifference-it is emotional withdrawl..while what you say about Harley is close..it is incomplete-It is out of context. Harley does not condone affairs...nor does he condone indifference. But they are both the by-product of a lack of real communication of needs and their execution.

And indifference after an affair ignores the WS culpability. And believe me..I did voice my feelings and Plan A'd my tookus off..and asked a lot of questions..it is when I was met with nothing,,,that I became indifferent. And it took a long time to get to that point. If my ex coould not understand mu indiffere

Indifference is not the worst mental enotional cruelty...but an affair is and will remain the worst form.

It is the betrayal of trust..indifference is not.It falls into the category of The Laws of Unintended Consequences. Fallout.

I am sure indifference feels like hate to you. it would to me too.

But,the act of infidelity is THE worst form of emotional cruelty and as such indifference would have no meaning within the context of this thread or this forum.

So I respectfully disagree with you.

And I really question whether you would rather be punched. I for one could not do that. That is cheap and demeaning. It is an emotional reaction that is unthinkable.

I concur with GM. Indifference dosen't hold a candle to the hurt caused by infidelity.

Gregg,

I'd much rather be punched! Cause I'd slip the punch and counter with a right cross... ba da boom ba da bing!! lol

Gregg, I certainly didn't intend to be at all offensive in speaking specifically into your situation - cause I don't know your situation. I was just speaking in general terms - and it's not always applicable, to be sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I broke my XH's jaw once. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He was a fighter. He was quite professional. He was quite good. He was much bigger than me.

He wanted to go out drinking one night. I just wanted to sleep and get up for work the next day. So I told him, go ahead if you want - but just don't wake me up when you come home because I have to work in the morning.

Well, he woke me up. He refused to let me sleep. He wanted to wake me up to tell me about all the boys he beat up that night drinkin' and a fightin'. (I really didn't want to hear that - didn't think it was very nice.) So he drags me out of bed and I patiently listen.

THEN, he wants to see how well I could fight. (We never got in a physical fight before then.)

I politely declined.

He asked me to punch him.

I politely declined.

He asked me to punch him.

I politely declined.

He asked me to punch him... and grabbed the shoulder of my nightgown and ripped it... to motivate me.

I paused. I had a silent moment of prayer. I said, "Lord, he has verbally asked me 3 times to punch him... may I?" Amazingly enough, I felt in my heart that the answer was, yes... ie "Make my day." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Right cross. Broke his jaw.

Swift to the groin. Never had children after that, boys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He keels forward cause, well, I knocked some sense where there hadn't been any... and I took the back of his head, grabbed a handful of hair, and introduced his nose to my knee as I swing it up to meet his nose... with all prejudice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, I left him in a huddle on the floor... thanked the Good Lord for that "Samson" anointing... and went on to bed.

The XH? Well, he eventually picked himself up from the pile I left him in on the living room floor - and went outside and slept in the car that night.

Never challenged me to a fight again, brothers!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I STAND BY MY INITIAL STATEMENT... lol.

I'd rather be punched (or have some guy try it)... cause I got a Samson anointing at the ready... and the Lord on my side... and I'll be fine. The silent treatment, to me personally, was worse.

And as for the indignity of the emotional reaction... I was very calm actually.

The Lord teacheth my fingers to fight.

And, little sister, who put up with your WH's physical abuse... please, in the future, call a cop... and PRESS those charges! You do not put up with that. My XH would have ever done one thing your XH did to you, his butt would be sitting in jail.

I wouldn't have punched my XH and kicked his behind - but he was a really, really, really good professional level fighter... and he asked me 3x to punch him... and I asked the Lord... and the Lord said yes.

I love God. He had me kick my XH's behind... and, no, I'm not open to other interpretations. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God bless,

Laura

LL-

Wow…let me tread lightly here and choose my words wisely, I don’t need you getting all Samson-ized on my behalf (besides, I like my jaw in tact and while I don’t intend on having more kids… I do put a priority on keeping everything in proper working order… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). I can see the point of what you are saying… but I think one has to make a few leaps to get there. Neglect is an act, indifference is an emotion… definitionaly they are not the same. I can see where you would perhaps label neglect as an intentional act of hate, but indifference is an emotional response, that for me anyway, came about as a coping mechanism stemmed from dealing with copious amounts of conflict with my W… both before and during her A. It was not an act of hate… not on my part. The neglect my W claims I was guilty of also was not born of hate. What she claimed was neglect was at best her dislike of where her wants and needs fell on MY priority list.

***DISCLAIMER***
I don’t for one second claim to be a purely innocent party here, please please please don’t think I am trying to make myself out that way…we all know better (including myself). It takes two to make the marriage work and I am just as guilty of getting us to the point that made her a possible and I will, to this day take at least 50% of the responsibility for that… perhaps more. And I am not saying she was unjustified in feeling how she felt…not at all, but I don’t think she handled it all that well. End of disclaimer.

I feel as though I bent over backwards for her and yet she was never happy, knowing what I know now I can see that I was applying my efforts in the wrong places… but hindsight as they say is 20/20. It seemed to me that no matter what I did, no matter what I tried to give her in terms of lifestyle or relationship… it was never enough. It seems to me that she has always been far more indifferent than I have ever been. I tried to set up counseling 2 years ago and she wouldn’t do it… “What is the point, are we going to have to see a therapist for the rest of our married lives?” is the response I was met with. How do you answer that? I know that she felt like I didn’t care and I know that she felt like she wasn’t important to me and I know that she felt neglected. However, I don’t see what I could have done any differently. No matter how I tried to address the issues… nothing was good enough, I got no feedback from her, and things only got worse.

Here is where I have a problem with your initial statement LL, and this is more based on (and perhaps better directed to) my experience with my W over the last year and a half… You say that when a woman feels neglect she tells her man and he does nothing, or marginalizes her complaint or tries to convince her that she is wrong and she ought to feel “X” instead of what she feels… From the male perspective of being on the receiving end of those complaints, this is like reading hyrogliphics. Being a clear thinking, right barined manly individual… my initial response is to solve her problem. Knowing what I know now of course…. This is a BIG MISTAKE! When I hear “I feel like I’m not important to you.” My response is “Oh honey, of course you are. I love you, why would you think such a thing?” Then she goes into this litany of things that make her feel neglected… putting me on the defensive and leaving me wonder what the hell she expects from me.

I don’t mean to be complaining about my case specifically, but I think the example gets to the heart of the male perspective on the issue. How am I supposed to make her feel how she wants to feel if A) I don’t know technically what it is that makes her feel that way B) I don’t know what I can and should do to make it better C) I honestly do not have a clue as to what she is expecting of me. Surely the feeling of neglect is the worst feeling a woman can get in a relationship, but to attach malice to it is making a bit of a leap I think.

Ok… clearly I’m just rambling here… but I guess I just wonder what can a guy do to turn the ship around. It seems to me that my W became indifferent far before I did… hence she had the A. I don’t think most husbands neglect their W’s out of cruelty… I think it is out of ignorance of what to do differently. And I know that dealing with my W… especially when she is indifferent… one is hard pressed to ever get any solutions. I guess what I’m saying here is it sure would have been nice if she would have just helped me to help her. I don’t know, what do you guys think? Am I alone here?

no, you're not alone. I agree 100%

Laura Lee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> you made my day...I am sitting here laughing at the computor by myself...maybe we should all ask God if this is the tactic to take to whip our WS's in shape..God knows I have felt like taking a swing at him at times... ..maybe some brain rearrangement might take him out of the fog <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hey there D2IA... good to hear from you. I couldn't remember what you changed your name to... from Solon that is. I just read your post on that other thread, glad to hear things are going well for you and your kids. I sure as hell wish Minnesota was an "at fault" state!!! I think "no fault" is going to be the demise of marriage. It makes no sense to me why two people can get married (a legal contract mind you) and one of the parties can break all the terms of said contract, walk out on the entire deal, and pay ZERO CONSEQUENCES. And to make things worse, they get half of everything. What a crock. Why would anyone enter into this kind of contract...??????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Things are going moderately well here. We are about to start a nice, thourogh custody evaluation that ought to last about 3 months. After that I anticipate an additional hearing or two then it should be over. I can't wait. I would give anyting for her to come home to us but it seems a foregone conclusion that she is gone. As such, I just want the fight over... both for me and the kids. Life goes on.

Anyway, good to hear from you. I'll have to let L&C know your lurking about. Weren't the three of us gonna get together at one time? What ever happened to that?

Take care and Good Luck!

[ May 20, 2004, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]

I am the WS. I can tell you I gave a million and one reasons why. The only thing I can do is think about where I was at when it all started.
I was tired of playing dress up for him. Tired of figuring out how I was going to feed the kids.
I was resentfull that he was staying late at work and not helping with anything. The only time I felt he wanted to be there was just to get some. I started hating him and wanting to feel loved again. What I did was wrong. I have been through hell for the decisions I have made and put my kids and him through the same.
I can only say that I love my H and am truly sorry for all that I have done. I wish him the best in life and I hope for the best for all of us involved.

Well, I wish you the best in your custody battle. It just amazes me how often these things happen...despite the fact that it is happening to me! You are right, no fault is damaging marriages, but the government is working on changing that...so I hear.

I have been so busy preparing for school and just working things out I have not had time to plan on us meeting. I'm still up for it though. The kids and I are going to Walt Disney World later in the summer, so other than that, I'm free.

Every time I see your story I am amazed. The guy next door. I don't see how you did it. Kudos to you.

Did what? Not kill him? The jury is still out on that... He and I have some unfinished business to attend to at a later date. I have my kids to worry about for now... but some day the score will be settled.

Ditto on the unfinished business WMWB???. I am looking forward to meeting OM. I plan on messing with him till it is absolutely not fun anymore. Paybacks are a b!tch.

Same here guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> although you already knew that WMWB

D2IA nice to see you ... when are you planning the Florida trip? Not a bad idea .. I could use a tan LOL what do u think WMWB?

Well... he is taking his kids, not sure he'd want a bunch of "women haters" following them around Disney.....

(...just kidding about the woman haters part ladies... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

You all are making me laugh with the unfinished business talk <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> It still crosses my mind today.

But can you imagine? I mean, it takes a..."special" person to have the nerve to be with someone elses wife, not to mention the wife having children. I cannot imagine myself doing it. I can maybe see falling in love with a woman and then finding out later that she is married and has kids. But as soon as I hear that the husband still loves his wife, wants to be a family, and I see the children, I'm outta there. Gone! I just cannot see myself being involved with a married woman with children. With ALL the beautiful single women in the world. What kind of loser would do that?

But get this. About a month ago, I get a letter in the mail, a letter without a return address. I open it and it's from him. This is what it says.

Solon,

You are not my enemy.
I do not hate you.
I have forgiven you.
I have always done what I was asked of me. Now it is finished.

signed (his name)

Now how crazy is that?!?! I get this letter on a Monday. On Saturday, my mom was in town visiting. We, me and my mom and the kids bump into my wife and this loser on the streets. Wow! So yeah, I don't know what that letter was about. But the part that got me was "I have forgiven you". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> For what!?!? You have forgiven me for sleeping with my wife? You have forgiven me for talking my wife into leaving me? you sick...see, I am about to start getting hot again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Yeah, I think about unfinished business all too often.

Dude.... that p*ss's ME off!!!! "I forgive you"...????? Excuse me...?!?!?! Keep that letter handy for the court battle... if nothing else it goes to show proof of the A. Wow, that takes balls...what a maget.

You ask what kind of guy it takes... I think the lowest fo the low, only a low life cockroach peice of sh*t would go after another mans wife, another mans family. I always thought there was a sort fo unspoken code among men, especially men who have familes, that you just don't make moves on a guys wife... you don't ruin a guys family just becuase you want too, just to see if you can, or just because you want to nail his wife! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> !!!!!

So to answer the question... it takes a maget, a lowly, slithering, worthless nothing of a person...

There is most definately a score to settle, I'm not sure how or where or when.... but the score has to be settled. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth... I'm thinking castration, in the most humiliating and painful way imaginable. That would even the score for me.

[ May 21, 2004, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]

Hi Guys,

I hope y'all don't take me tooooooo seriously.

Just about the time women say they want to tame men... I hear all this caveman adrenaline talk... and I'm like, whoa. Guys. I like.

Opposites attract for some reason only the man upstairs knows or can comprehend.

I loved my XH. I'd be married to him today if he hadn't completely hit bottom.

I don't know WHY we can't understand each other... can't seem to get along... and, yet, there's this oh so strange attraction of male/female, Mars/Venus dimensions!!

I think I'll defer to Dr. Harley. I just got a phaeremone rush hearing you guys wanna beat up those OM's.

Did I tell you I really liked a boxer? lol

Laura

OK, here's my issue.... help me guys!!!

Ok, I had this boxer who would just snarl and back off any guy that tried to vye for my attention... cause he was like, "She is mine... all mine."

This guy, granted, bottomed out.

Here's where I'm having problems today.

I like this other guy... and he's just so D*** non-communicative.

He just frustrates me. (We're both single.)

I like my boxer better... and just wish he wouldn't have bottomed-out.

Well, anyway, I have a plan.

I'm thinking that I'm going to walk right by this guy with another guy... and give him this oh so childish, "Na na na boo boo!" look.

And if he just looks all hurt and collapses or something... I'm going to be sooooooooo mad!!!

If he retreats into his shell.... I'm gonna be so frustrated!!!

But if he is like, "She is mine... all mine!!".. and he starts, not literally - not physically - no way, fighting for me... like those rams butting heads or something in the wild... oh my lands!! Phaermone city.

What's wrong with me? Is this some primal thing wired into me like an animal in the wild?

Every time this man gets all hurt and collapses during the challenge of trying to win my affection... I get soooooo frustrated!

I'm wanting him to be "strong enough"... to fight for me (not physically)... to win me...

What is this?

Any, please don't slam on me, insight here?

Laura

L&C, I just read some of your past posts. Man, so she is being vicious now? On top of all of this? I don't understand why the WW has to be cruel, both emotionally and verbally, when she is giving herself to another man. At least they could try and be courteous when speaking to us.

But you are right. You need to do whatever you can to fight for you children. You need to have sole custody. I wish there were a way you could have them more than 50% of the time. I wish there were a way you could get a restraining order against the OM from you and your children. I don't know your complete situation but that may be hard at this time. For me, I was able to get a restraining order against the OM from me and the children because the children are under my protection. The order covered all of us. So if they were with my wife and I needed to get them from her in an emergency or something he could not be around. It was sort of complicated, but simple at the same time.

I know of an attorney who used to work here who took up residence in Minny. I think that is where you are from. She actually went to Min. school of law and is really good. I can ask her some questions. Hang in there, Man!

Ummmmmm… LL, can I offer to be your prop…????

But seriously, I don’t understand why woman feel the need to play these games. If you like the guy, I don’t see why you are putting him through the paces like this. If you find him to be too emotionally weak… then move on, why play these games? I don’t get it. I mean, I can understand women wanting “real men”…tough, strong, emotionally tough on the outside and tender on the inside (kinda like a good steak), so on and so on… But I don’t get the games. This is perhaps the part about dating again that I am looking forward to the least. I never understood the games before and I am only getting more antiquated in my ways… It seems almost doomed from the start.

[ May 21, 2004, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]

WMWB,

I love steak... sirloin... MW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Can't have a married man for a male friend like that... wouldn't be proper... wouldn't be giving community their props... and a man is more than a prop. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm not intentionally trying to play a game.

Just a thought. My plan. But maybe I'll walk by with a girlfriend instead and give him a different kind of a look.

There would be no games... if there was honest, open communication... and, to be honest, if I got what I wanted in the first place.

I guess Dr. Harley is right again.

But isn't it all "a dance"?

We species all have our mating dances. Look at nature. Is it all just "a game"? Or is it, really, "a dance"?

I have particular issues with stoicism... with shutting down communication... with failing to talk about real needs... and lack of positive effort to meet them in a relationship... with trying to look strong... and denying true love.

If I had met someone I truly loved more, who I found more attractive, then "the dance" with him would be... no more. But we've had our "dance" from the very first time we met.

Maybe part of the reason I dance as I do is the ongoing effects I'm growing out of of having been hurt before. Maybe part of the reason he dances as he does is part of the ongoing effects he's growing out of of having been hurt before.

Do I really "choose" my dance steps? Maybe I choose... but my prior inclinations are set by circumstances beyond my ability to change... like my past.

I'm doing the best I know how.

And, if he wasn't playing a game, the shell game, I wouldn't be tempted to play mine.

Who is leading "the dance"?

No disrespect intended to males or anyone experiencing the grief of adultery or divorce.

Again, we're both single.

Laura

[ May 21, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by laura_lee:
 WMWB,

I love steak... sirloin... MW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Can't have a married man for a male friend like that... wouldn't be proper... wouldn't be giving community their props... and a man is more than a prop. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<hr /></blockquote>What does MW mean?

And I was refering to a prop in the sense that you wanted to parade another guy in front of this man you are interested in... in that sense would not you need a prop? And I was only being coy anyway... However, I'd be interested in seeing the look granted when you parade a girlfriend around him....ahhhh, well I'm getting distracted and off topic....

Give me a second to riegn in my thoughts here.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Ok, I'm better now... Anyway, I can certainly understand why you would be leary of a guy who clams up like that... especially given your thoughts on the cruelty of neglect and aloofness of your exH. But again, if you see the warning flags popping up all over... why persue him? Isn't this a bit self defeating in a way?

I also love a good steak... but perhaps a better analogy for people (what I think both men and women are looking for) is beer. You know... tall, cool, good head and goes down easily...

...am i allowed to say that here???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

[ May 21, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]

WMWB....

Ummmmm... #1 - I would not be "parading a girlfriend"... I would be walking in front of him with one of my friends... ummmmmmm... have you been watching one of those new shows that are out? Cause that's not me!! lol

#2 It would have to be a man I like... to create the jealousy factor if I went with Plan A (ummmm... my plan A... not Dr. Harley's... lol). Not just "a prop"... but a guy I like...

#3 Let's just "shrink down" all this psychobabble into food talk... I like steak! I don't like clams! (I'm with you on that one!) If we can beef this guy up to become real meat... there's hope!! (Did I say that?)

#4 Well, of course, I like beer. Michelob light... in the bottle. There's nothing like a cold one! uhhhh... stop.

Laura

LOL... sounds good to me.

But if you were actually "walking" by guy #1 with guy #2... and you actually liked both, would you not be using guy #2 to get guy #1...??? Wouldn't that make you little more than a "player" (pronounced in the African American community "pley-ah")...??? Wouldn't that be "a game" or "a dance" or call it what you will... isn't that a little mean? You'd be using guy #2...

And by the way... what could you possibly mean by saying you would "walk by" with a girlfriend and give him "a different sort of look" then????? I think I took that exactly how you meant it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> !!!

[ May 21, 2004, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]

As I read your story, I sat back and wondered "when did I write this". Same story. The "A" was long distance, was the only difference.

My only suggestion to you is to do what is in your heart. Pray for God's help and feel confident about your decisions, as hard as it is.

Please never Never say that you can't forgive or you don't want to reconcile. You never know what can and will happen.

Right now things are hard. Decisions are being made on emotion. Attorneys are trying to earn a buck or two. Once all this settles, reevaluate. I myself am not to that point yet with my divorce. I am still trying everything in the bag, hoping something will trigger a memory in her or a feeling in her. The biggest thing I have realized, is that I cannot control what she, her attorney, her parents or friends are going to do or say. I was accused of abuse in many different forms. The sad part is that she believes her attorneys and is not open to what is right.

If you want your marriage repaired, be patient, ask God for help and do what He tells you to do. It is still going hurt, you are still going to cry, so just realize that and please learn how to handle it for your childrens sake.

I am in the same place. God is helping me with patience, strength around my children, and healing.

God bless.

WMWB,

aaaaaagh!

This is kind of like stepping on gooey gum... I am trying to... extricate my shoe... and am concerned... I might be making a bigger mess! lol What did I say? oh no!

ok... now... what I was trying to say... is that walking by with a girlfriend would be a "non-threatening" situation... noooooooo jealousy issue... involved... and, so, could be one of those sideways, 'hey there' glances. Not a big deal. Can see anything like it on tv any time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And, I don't know... would it be "using" Guy 2? Well, not really, cause if Guy 2 likes me and I like Guy 2, and Guy 1 doesn't work out... then Guy 2 and I could work out... yeah, it's like high school or something.

When we were in high school, we didn't take life so seriously. We didn't call it "games"... we called it "fun"... "romance"... and life. Even if we are older... the more things change... the more things stay the same. Maybe it's only "a game" if one takes life too seriously?? I'd like to just call it flirting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It is better to have loved and lost than never have loved at all. No need to play it safe. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Better, being single, to get back in the game! lol

hey STOpthepityparty... you sound very mature and balanced... and probably have the best shot at restoration with your way of handling things as stated. Do remember to laugh and have fun (without giving up the goal of restoration)... and don't get all caught up in the drama of the WS, parents, friends, etc.

See ya,

Laura

[ May 21, 2004, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]

WMWB ... you need to get out more LOL .. it means Medium Well

D2IA .. I'll write back later

L&C,

Thanks for the help there on the MW question.

If we can just help WMWB, and men and women everywhere, to understand the menu selections... I think we will have solved every problem that has ever arisen on the board!!!

Do we really have "relationship issues"..., and I hope I'm not being toooooo philosophical, or is it really all about food?

Love bank? Whatsup with that????

Food bank!!! That's the ticket!!

After all, the way to a man's (and most women's, right?) heart is through their stomache!!!

We have diet issues, here! Underfed men and women... men and women who have been getting the WRONG entres. Overfed men and women.... double entres!! (not to be confused with double entandra's WIWH, if you're lurking!!)

Men and women who FAIL to control their appetites!! and fail to stick to their diets!!

Men and women who just can't pull away from the table... or pass on dessert!!

Appetite issues. Diet issues. The food bank!!

Maybe we need to pay more attention to that Atkins guy. Does he have a discussion board?

Anyway, thanks for the help, L&C, cause the family that eats together.... stays together!

Laura

LL... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> LOL - sometimes

I agree about that .. ( I used to manage Restaurants ).. Look at the menu but don't order the Take out... JUST SAY NO TO THE xtra piece of <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> "Dessert" and most of us here wouldn't have the problem we have .. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />