Is there a "feeling" when you know a marriage is over? A shrink we went to a few years ago said when the fighting is over, it's over. When you quit arguing, it's over. That's the irony, but I think maybe he was right. I'm so tired of fighting, of trying, of reading books, of dragging him to marriage counselors, of the same old merry go round ride over and over again. I moved out a month ago. I haven't really cryed, oh a few little tears. I don't even have much emotion. Someone once said I grieved this marriage ending a long time ago. I think maybe that's true. I'm lonely, in an apartment, him in our huge house. But my stress is down, and life goes on. As someone on this site said, moving out isn't a bed of roses, it's been a hard month. I still have to get the rest of my stuff. Likely I'm going to file for a divorce this week. I'm setting the appointment with an attorney tomorrow. It's been a long, crazy four years with this man. I guess you know when "enough is enough" is that true? Can anyone else tell me how they knew, what it felt like, the emotions once you filed a divorce? Does life go on? Do you look back years later and know you did the right thing? Or are there always feelings and regrets? Do you date again, do you learn to care again, especially after a bad marriage? The same shrink said having gone through what I have I'll likely stay the heck away from controlling men, but it could make me not marry again, I could be burnt for life... I don't want be to a bitter single mom. I want to be happy and spirited and in love with life, how people use to know me. Not this shell of a person. What happens next?

You know. You listen to your inner truth. And if you let him take that away from you at some point, go somewhere quiet and listen. It's a process, yes, but if you are questioning, listen to what you are asking. You already know the answer. Whatever that answer is, you must accept it to act upon it. Don't act in haste and don't act in fear. Be strong, firm, committed to yourself, knowing what is right for you. Don't worry about the future, it doesn't exist. And, if you are injured, then you are in need of healing first. God Bless and good luck.

My horoscope said one day, I "will consider all options before making a decision" - I ripped it out of the paper, just remembered it's in my purse. When friends were pushing me a month ago - divorce him - I told one, I'll first consider all options...

My mom said I needed space, a counselor tried to talk us into marriage counseling right after our big fight. I told him no, give me a month. Now it's been a month, of more quiet time. Without my husband in my face, without fighting, with some peace.

I think I know what I have to do. You may be right, if I don't worry so much about the future - and live for the day, one day at a time... and believe God has a plan for me, and there's a reason for everything, it helps. People stay for comfort of knowing they have something even if the something is bad, like my marriage is. Denial only lasts so long, inbetween fights, but the pain is there, the stress, it'll make me old and sick.

If my heart and mind are telling me I'm at peace in a little apartment with plastic silverware and a mattress on the floor - and that I dont' miss the big 600k house, that's something. I haven't prayed in years, grew up in church, someone told me recently God talks to you by giving you peace about something. If you think of a decision over and over again, that you have to make, and you feel at peace with it... then He's saying that's the way to go. Somehow I have to believe in a higher power to get through this and my dad dying in the same year.

I don't know that I need much more time to think, feel what's right. My attorney friend said I'd know in my heart if it's over, if so now is the time... so this week I'll decide, hopefully on Monday, Tuesday after talking with an attorney in the town I"ll have to file a divorce in.

What would a peaceful life be like? I used to enjoy my single days... my little world. I was a bit of a loner, I liked books and traveling, and making new friends. I don't even know if I've been "me" in four years of this marriage.

hi horsey, I am not divorced so I can't comment but I want to say keep praying and God will answer. Again whatever the outcome we ask that it be the will of God.
sisterly
girlee

Ok. I have written to you before about listening to feelings rather than using your head and considering facts...you can't get it? Please go and buy "Life Strategies" by Dr. Phil. Feelings will misguide you....I know it. But thinking and as the other poster here put it, meditation, is also good.

For you, I suggest, reading that book along with Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson. You need to get the facts straight and have a clear cut thought pattern about what is going on right now.

Something that has helped me over the years is to do this...ironically my xh taught me to do it...he would do it when trying to close wa sale for his customers...it is the "Ben Franklin" approach to an issue. Say it's your marriage. You need to decide if things are going to have a teeny chance or if you're headed for divorce so you can take action one way or the other... Simply Draw a line down a ruled sheet of paper or do it on your computer. You on one side list the positibve things that are present. On the other side, you list the negativew things ythat are present. That should be one beginning indicator of where you should go with this.

Feelings are not facts. I say go with facts.

My computer is having trouble so I can't type very weel nor see what it is I am typing.e

I am at the same point where I do not know whether it is or is not over. I wish I knew. He loves me a lot...I can see it now, but I don't feel it. I feel like I give and give and he doesn't give back. He takes our marriage for granted and feels as if his job IS our marriage. We both had screwed up parents..arguing all the time... which made it hard for both of us to have a 'normal' marriage. Whatever that is.. because i do not know. I am scared I never will. I don't know what to do with myself right now. I am reading the Dr. Phil book Relationship rescue as my last resort. I hope this helps. If not, I think I know what to do. It is scary. I can honestly say that I do not know if I love him anymore and maybe that is the feeling you get when 'you just know' that is truly is over.

horsey... i only post occasionally, as i am relatively new here, but i have read many of your posts and i feel comfortable... for me, it took about eleven months of physical separation from my STBX (even though she was already living with OM for about that long) to realize that my marriage was truely over... i call it 'delusion in denial'... some ask 'when do you give up hope, when is enough, enough'... for me, hope gave up on me when i realized that i could never be happy with my STBX (W) and that is also when 'forgiveness' came... i forgave her and me and accepted responsibility for my part in the destruction of our dream... durring the separation, we sold the M house and I was homeless for two months living in my truck with everything i owned... i can empathize with you sitting in alone in an apparment with plastic forks... it's tough, but it can only get better...like my mother always said, 'son, when you hit bottom, there is only one place to go... up'... and life goes on... and on... and on... i firmly belive that if i do all i can to the best of my morality possible, then i will not have regets... forgiveness purged me of my past regrets... i can't comment on the filing for D, almost there... all papers are done, and those 'feelings' are mixed, but nothing negative...
I used Carl Jung's thought process (like ignited stated) "you can not change anything unless you accept it. condemenation does not liberate, it opresses"... it helped...
i don't worry about dating because i am not ready so it wouldn't be any fun or constructive, but i hope in the future that i have the opprotunity... if not, oh well... i still have me and all of my family and friends... that's enough for me to be happy...
justpeachy... right on... i had a (zen) master many years back that taught me to remove my emotions and feelings from dealings in the business world... i treat my separation and pending D as a business deal, now... essentially that is what it is... negative emotions only hurt me and delayed my process... and i learned this here... 'feelings are not a sound basis for choosing to sacrafice yourself when everything you know leads you to believe that the sacrafice will be in vain"... i also agree with Ben Franklin's method... the pros/cons list helped me realize what i had to gain, not just what i had already lost... good luck and hang in there... oh, and my granfather always said, "if you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging".

be well

samm

Perhaps I read too much into it. I saw it as a case of emotional abuse and that isn't necessarily so. I saw in the post some things I recognized and had to deal with. If you aren't sure if that describes you, read The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. If it IS you, at least you'll know that you're not crazy. It all depends on what the arguments are about and if anything is ever resolved. Resolution of problems is a huge thing. So is approaching marital problems as a "we" and not hearing, "I don't have a problem. We don't have a problem. You have a problem." Either way, it is correct that feelings are not facts. Just make sure that when/if you do write down the facts that you include those repeating situations that make you feel bad. Because those situations ARE facts.

Sounds like you are getting a lot of sound advice and experience in this post. Blessings...

Hi everyone...
today I found this site, because I felt it's too hard to carry it all alone. Just want to talk to you
I don't know about "feelings" - one day it seems that yes, for sure it's over; another day you feel motivated to pray and stand for the restoration of the marriage...Sometimes i think i just don't want to see this reality, that my marriage is really OVER.
We separated, now we live apart for 6 months already. But everyday there is less chance that we'll stayt together. We have a girl, she is 2...
It is so painful. I hate divorce, i always hated it, and believed i'll never divorce. We both are Christians, but... I lost my hope. My H says he doen't want me anymore, he blames me for everything that went wrong in our marriage. I know that it's not true, that we both were wrong... but nothing can change his mind, his convictions..sometimes i think that he is simply sick person <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Sorry for you, it usually is sick I think when one person blames the other for all the marriage problems, but that's how it often is it seems. No one likes to look at themselves and change do they? I dont' believe in divorce either, I think one day I'll divorce the other we'll reconcile. It's very hard to reconcile after so much has gone on, I know it. Even if you do to ever have the feelings and love again? People do it, I guess I've tried and tried and tried, my husband hasn't. So his actions are making up my mind for me...

In my case it was not only that I knew it's over, it was that I didn't want to accept some things anymore.

After 2 years of being hurt, I set some boundaries, gave him a list of things I need to have to be able to do my part of M's work; he didn't do it, didn't take me seriously, moreover he continued to lie to me!! and - I left him.

How did I feel that day when I left him...
Did I love him? - Yes!
Did I feel sorry and in pain? - Yes!
Did I feel lost and without compass in my life? - Yes!
Did I have any hope he'd change and we'd get back together? - Yes!
And all of that didn't prevent me to leave him, our home!
For I didn't want to spend any new day feeling miserable.
(Did I have days after that and still felt miserable? - Of course I did, and a lot of more tears, BUT I was alone, he didn't hurt me anymore, he didn't cheat on me anymore, yelled at me, I was alone (with my son) and didn't feel unwanted, unloved...)

Do I regret?
Yes! - That I waited 2 years before I left him and spent them in sorrow.

It's been 16 months and I could say I'm healed.
There are some triggers still, but less and less painful, and sometimes I'm sad (not because I left him, but my choice of the man-for-me was so wrong...)

Him?
He's stil seeing OW (and still denying!!) once per month, doesn't look happy, struggling... and he says he still loves me...
Last time he said that - this morning; came to pick up our son... and asked me if we can date each other and see if we can make it, to get back together...
My answer is that I count only his actions, not words, and that I see no changes...

Yes, I felt sad after that conversation, but... life goes on...
I might end my life totally alone, and if it's price I have to pay for not wanting to be alone with someone or in misery as I lived - I'm very fine with that too.

My parents were here today, and my mother said it didn't seem like I was still hoping for a reconciliation. I was surprised - didn't think I'd said much of anything at all, but you know what? I think she's right. Somewhere, somehow, I must have changed my attitude or how I come across.

Do you ever think about your former life, and it seems like it was a movie you saw instead of something that happened to you? That's where I'm at -- it seems like years and years since I left, instead of just a month.

Yes, times do seem like a movie. It's like I didnt' even know him. Scenes are playing back. I keep remembering one when we were in Mexico and argued, he pushed me off the bed of course, his usual - pushing/shoving/slapping to "shut me up" as he called it a month ago. That was two years ago. I seperated, moved back in, got preg and tried to make it work the last two years. I tried, he really didn't. Once he said, "you are stuck with this" when I said he had to change, he had to stop cutting me down. He said that about six months ago. When I went to go he said, "you have it made here, you won't leave, you know you won't..." the same night he slapped me. I left, I left the next day and never went back, not even for my stuff which I have to do.

Yes, it's only been a month for me. I drove past our old house in the town I moved to thinking, who was that lonely sad woman who used to live there? I can't even picture going back to the house I just left, I have to, to get my things. Although I've bought new furniture and a lot of stuff. It's so far from my life, I'm sure he has no clue how far gone I am this time. I've tried to move back a number of times, always moved back. He always then got worse and worse.

My mom is saying the same, it doesn't look like I want to reconcile, I kept talking about it two weeks ago, three weeks ago, but this week NO. Somehow it hit me, I'm a single mom, the baby's sick, I'm working at night wierd hours at home to keep my business afloat - but I was a single mom with him. I'm frustrated, but I'm not insane like I'd be there in the house with him, him telling me the baby is my job, he won't help, take a hike, I can't run a business and I'm a bad mom.

Why are mother's alway's right? She was right when I was dating him, he's a selfish pig who doesn't care? She said when I left him I'd be wondering "WHY" did I stay so long, why did it take so long to leave him, why did I put up with it so long? Why do we? It's the dream... that dream is dying quick with space. My own space. Peace even amidst a hectic week. Quiet time. God is talking to me, saying leave this man, no one deserves to live their life in misery.

It seems to me you are almost there - at peace in your mind.

And, yes, it's better to be a single mom leaving alone (with your child), than be a single mom living with that kind of H.

Why we put up with this for a longer time?

For we didn't love and respect ourselves enough!
(Whatever it's done to you it was you allowing it.)

Horsey,
Yes, there is a feeling, and oddly, for me, at least, it's a non-feeling.
It's like someone has been saying in this thread-- feelings misguide you. IT's the peace that is directing me.
I wrote my husband an email tonight-- I was myself in it for the first time in forever.
I left a month ago, and left a bunch of stuff at the big house. I have real silverware, but I was a single mom in a marriage anyway....
Now my son gets to hear me say "I'm sorry you heard us fighting. People who love each other should never act like we did. "
And there it is... I said it myself "People who love each other should not act like we did."
I don't think I ever loved him, or he me.
And instead of feeling sad about that, I don't feel anything, no remorse, no nothing. It just IS what it is.
Or maybe I'm just numb?
I don't know, but I can see clearly now-- without emotion. I can see that we behaved like UNlovers, and it was abusive as well.
It's too hard to turn the corner in abuse and reconcile for real. Because we know what the stakes are for even one setback. I'm not talking about one mistake, I'm talking about being on the road to change, and then just one mean comment, one sharp look and we're back to where we were.
I will never trust my husband to not give those looks. NO matter how much he changes and shows work on his behavior.
It's too bad becasue I think he's an essentially good man who's had crummy role models all his life.
BUt then I think he needs a different wife-- maybe one who can bring him up to her level. I wasn't able to. But maybe he;ll be more open to the next one.
Yes, there's a feeling-- hate is not the opposite of love. Fear is not the feeling.
For me, it is peace in myself, and indifference towards him.
Lucy

I knew it was over the day he raped me and wouldn't stop when I was crying and tears were racing down my face. He told me to "be quiet" so the kids didn't hear us.

It was Easter Sunday 1998. I will NEVER forget it.

I knew without a doubt that I tried EVERYTHING to keep my marriage together and he didn't care about me at all. That was the end of it for me.

Never loved one another. Behaved like unlovers. One step back and those looks, the abuse. No trust again...

Sounds like my life story. I was wondering today if I ever really loved my husband. I'm not so sure I really did, or he, me. He waited three years to ask me to marry him, if he was sure, he would have asked me before. When he did ask me I was so unsure, I almost backed out of the wedding. Our first month together I knew it was wrong.

A chinese proverb says when you've made a mistake work as quickly as you can to fix it. That was in a chinese cookie at a restaurant, I kept it. It's true don't you think? What if I'd fixed this mistake earlier? I should have, I knew it. I told him the first months of marriage, if this is the way it's going to be we'll end up divorced. His control, yes, those "looks".

I can't take another one of those looks either. The coldness in his eyes. The verbal comments. The slapping. Where did all the ugliness come from? How do you wind up so ugly yourself in one of these marriages? How can it go on and on and on and on? It's like a video of my life, I'm watching it these days, was I really there?

I'm glad my boy is only 9 months old, I don't have to explain to him that people don't act like that... I feel bad enough that he's been around so much stress of the marriage, a move, me, new daycare, now ilness, you name it. Poor little guy needs a break. I hope I can provide him with a stable home life even single. But it's better then the insanity of that marriage.

I guess I am on my way to the big D...

First time here, I hope someone else is still awake. My husnand and I have been together for 10 years, married for 5. We have a 3 year old daughter. His view of me is that I stop being a wufe when our daughter was born. My view of him he needs to quit drinking and stop being selfish, his view to that... i'm trying to control him. Things have gone on to long that I feel there is no repair and I don't have it in me to try anymore. I just want to get on with the next step of life. He and I are separating, he stated he would not leave his house so our daughter and I are going to move out and get an apartment. Everytime I think there is the slightest bit of hope he will say or do something that reminds me why I feel this way. My concerns lie with am I doing the right thing for our daughter. He says I'm being selfish but I think he is. He thinks I have blinders on, I think he does. I have not been able to make him see that his drinking really affected the way I felt about him. Sometimes he will blame me for his drinking, that I do not give him what he needs. (Sex) Other days he says there's nothing wrong with him, it's all me and I need to go see the "Crazy Doctor" as he put it. Degrading me becuase I had suffered from depression and was on prozac. He says I'm just trying to control him. That I have become so demanding, I haven't been a wife. He discust me. He, deep down somewhere was a good man, I thought, but he is lost in his alcohol and for too long I said nothing because I hate confrontation and he was once what my world revolved around and all i had. When our daughter came alaonf i will admit I have become a much stronger person, I am certainly different from when we met, but for the first time ever in my life, I like who I am, I like my values, I have integrity and I am the most honet person I know. I am forgiving and compassionate, but when it comes to my husband I don't have anything left to give.

Sounds familair to me, Sherry.
I don't have any more to give my Husband either. COmpassion or patience.
It's like he wore me out, for himself.
Keep posting here!
Lucy

Horsey,
The weekend we were getting married I told my dad that "I think he just wants to marry me so he'll have someone to torture". Then I said "Does that sound rational? Or am I just getting cold feet?"
My dad,in his wisdom said, "I guess there's only one way to find out. Time will tell, and you can always get a divorce if it doesn't work out."
I laughed because my parents are not into divorce, and have tried hard to keep me in the marriage, to look on the bright side, to see the good, to take acountability.
I'm glad they did because it has made me know witout a doubt that I tried as hard as I could to make it work!
And all in all, it's only been 2 years of hell.
Let's see... they say you need to spend one month of healing for each year of marriage, plus an initial six months before you're soundly healed, right?
So, that means, I'll be feeling better in just 8 months!
LOL
Lucy

I have nine months to heal then, four years of marriage plus six months, I've got one month over. Actually I think I've grieved the loss of this marriage a long time. I haven't really cryed that hard since I've been gone this month. I did that while in the marriage considering leaving.

The writing was on the wall for both yours and I's marriages. We have to learn to trust our "gut" intuition. It's strong for women isn't it? I knew this was wrong, I couldn't pin point how wrong but there were red flags while dating him. He too was out to torture someone, to blame his life on someone - he can't stand living alone now in our big house because he doesn't have a doormat. Best thing for these men is to find someone else as quickly as possible so they'll leave us alone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by horsey:
<strong> Actually I think I've grieved the loss of this marriage a long time. I haven't really cryed that hard since I've been gone this month. I did that while in the marriage considering leaving.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, me too. Maybe it's normal after all - if I've felt any guilt, it's been about NOT feeling enough since I left. Instead of "absence makes the heart grow fonder" it's been "out of sight, out of mind" for me.

Wow....do I know you all or what?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Been following this with much interest. I have been separated from my H for 8 months now. I just came to the end of the road with a man unwilling to try. Then I went past the point of no return- the love bank had been depleted for so long that there was no spark of anything left.

There has been the struggle with should I try one more time and the sadness of dreams lost. But, I have learned to listen to that gut reaction, too. That little nagging tug that would not go away.
Wish I'd listened sooner.
keep smilin

Last April I wrote my husband and read a very heart felt letter. The end of it said "The love I will forever hold in my heart is for what was."

I am really glad so many people are opening up about this. Feelings can misguide you because we are reactive, or can be. And knowing what is acceptable and not acceptable for yourself is necessary. I forget here who said it, but it's true...things may have been done to us, but if they were, we allowed it. In fact, my therapist had me write that exact list: What I Allowed My Husband To Do. If you are still struggling, try that little exercise.

Elan, I am sorry you had to experience that. Thank you for sharing it. My stbx had, on three occasions started sex while I was sleeping and the kids were in same room. He still denies it when I bring it up. This was after he knew I was considering divorce. That's when I moved out of the bedroom. So, while it wasn't a violent encounter such as you experienced, there was still an element there that I don't even know how to name.

He still denies a lot of things that I know happened. That used to bother me, like I needed him to say that he did it or that he was sorry. I don't think I have that need anymore. I figured out that I wasn't crazy, that I wasn't making things up, that it wasn't all in my head or just my problem alone. Just the other day, I was thinking about my cat that died a couple of years ago and I became angry and sad all at once because my stbx used to threaten to kill him, let him go, send him away, etc. I mentioned it yesterday and apparently I was hallucinating because not only did it not happen, it didn't happen any of the dozens of times he used one of those threats.

So, whatever you base your decision on, there is evidence. Mine just happened to point towards fairly demented and when given the option to change, he "tried his best" but all I saw was in some ways a worsening of behavior, probably due to the stress,etc. But the way I figure it, if he really had cared, he would have become sincere in his effort, even if he couldn't always be successful. His actions were all based on anger and fear of losing me or the kids and probably stigma.

If you were in an abusive situation, I would recommend counseling with a psychologist if you can afford it and group therapy with other women who share similar experiences. I attend meetings at my local YWCA which also offers a playgroup for the children and a group counseling session for the children over 5. Additionally, I have gotten a lot of support through our local Catholic churches with the divorce aspect. I don't know if that is available everywhere or not, but it might be worth looking into.

I was with this man for 17 years and it took 15 to even tell anyone that there was something wrong. A lot of times, women cannot or won't leave. Its a comfort zone emotionally and oftentimes cannot afford the financial consequences of such a move. But there are agencies to help. And it doesn't seem like any of you who have written this need the info, as you are already living on your own, leading lives...but for anyone else who might peek in here...

So thanks for bearing with me. Bless you all.

"His actions were all based on anger and fear of losing me or the kids and probably stigma."

What do you mean by this? Someone else said that anger is really fear... is that true? How much of hurt is really someone protecting themselves? How much is their insecurities?

After I told him I wanted the divorce, he became in many ways more abusive even though he stopped hitting me. He kept saying how much he was trying, doing his best but in fact, things changed as the types of abuse changed. Simply, he had other things to be mad at me for once I told others about the problem and said I wanted a divorce. For years I had begged to go to counselors, talk, anything to get it aired out. I didn't know that I could go to marrige counseling by myself. But, in his view, there were no problems. I was just a nag, too sensitive, etc. etc. And that's when I could get him to talk. Usually, there was no conversation, just reversal, regression, whatever. But I digress. Anger is based in fear, that's true. Fear is probably the "lowest" in a range of qualities we might possess, unless of course you are a truly evil being. Doubt there's too many of that here in these forums.

So...after I said I wanted a divorce, his "new" abuses were directed at me because he was angry that I wanted a divorce, angry that I discussed the abuse, fearful of losing me, "losing" the kids, and stigma because he grew up Catholic and in his family, that's the worst thing you can do. Abuse runs in his family and all of those women will stay because of stigma. As long as the man isn't cheating on you, it's okay. It's all personality clashes, etc. Two of my sisters in law did call cops on their husbands and since they were family members by marriage only, were looked down upon. Guess what? I was in some ways the favorite daughter in law. Now, I am sure I am the one they all talk about. Don't care. They're stuck and I'm not.

I am going to be free of this man and of this pain. I am reclaiming who I've always been but both didn't allow and wasn't allowed to be.

You know I am reading these post and they all have points that I say "oh, thats me". One thing that isn't the same is that my husband and I are really good friends. We are just completely different. He goes out and parties; he takes alot of our marriage for granted, but over all he isn't horrible. I have the numb feeling in our relationship right now; withdrawl. I care about him as a friend but I don't think that I love him anymore. When we argue he says that "I never have you a reason to believe I would change; You can't leave you have brought 2 kids into this" He is very controlling and demands alot of amdmiration from me and everyone. I haven't argued about it because he has always been this way. He goes out with his friends and stays out. I don't go; can't go have to be home with kids. There are many many things that are wrong with our relationship but he doesn't cheat (I think), or beat me. So is neglect enough to walk away on? I think I just fell out of love.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is very controlling and demands alot of amdmiration from me and everyone. I haven't argued about it because he has always been this way. He goes out with his friends and stays out. I don't go; can't go have to be home with kids. There are many many things that are wrong with our relationship but he doesn't cheat (I think), or beat me. So is neglect enough to walk away on? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe that this is "neglect". I asked myself, "Do I want to have my children behave like their father?" The answer was NO. You are the one that has to live the rest of your life with or without him. Is he willing to go to marriage counselling? Are you willing to go to counselling? What are you willing to do to change?

I didn't think my ex cheated (I found out he was cheating for years and in fact he gave me an STD that I am still battling). He too went out with his "friends". Thing was he never wanted to be a father. He wanted to be a bachelor with the perks of a marriage to make him look good. With my ex I was the one that did all the work on the relationship. He got everything he wanted when he wanted and how he wanted. Meantime his wife and children were used to make him look good to the outside world and then easily discarded when I realized how little we really mattered to him.

Am I happy? You bet I am. I have peace in my life. I know what is happening from one day to the next. And no, he never hit me, but he pretty much did everything else but.

Do some research. Read this website. Read some more marriage counselling sites. Read about Narcissism and other personality disorders. Read about self-esteem and what healthy relationships are. Educate yourself and PRAY.

Life does go on no matter how hard it seems to be. Why go back to a home that is filled with stress and unhappiness? If you are living poor, but are not feeling bad about your self due to the way your spouse treats you, then why go back. Nothing says you will be a bitter single person forever. Time has a way of healing and changing things. I am new to this kind of thing and all I can say is that I have lost a lot materialistically, but I have gained a life where I am not getting put down everyday, not getting yelled at everyday, not getting physically pushed around, not having my kids listen to screaming matches, not being a single parent even tho married. Instead I have peace each day, my children do not get yelled at, I get complimented for the things I do, I get appreciated for the things I do, I actually have someone that cares about me instead of trying to control me and I don't live in misery or fear every day. Decide what your life and your kids' lives are worth and go from there. Sure, it is scary and lonely, but what is your peace of mind worth?

Way to go Simone!
You said it.
There's no way I could go back now, even if I wanted to. My self-esteem would never recover if I did, I have too much to loose in going back.
My son is happier, he right away started referring to "Dad" by his first name!
I saw my H today for about 5 minutes. First time I've seen him in over a month.
He looked rumpled and tired. I used to like to cuddle him, encourage him, hug him when he looked so pathetic.
I see now how my doing that just fed his beleif system-- just gave him ego boosts.
Empty, empty ego boosts.
That's all I was to him.
You know, I wrote him a letter a few weeks ago about all the positive things he's given me over time. He said he liked getting it, that it was nice to hear something good about himself instead of something bad.
I wrote the letter for me-- because I felt I had to make some sort of peace, and stop being the ugly wife I became. And I found that it was easy to do.
Well, he brings it up as if now he has proof that our problems were my fault. In other words, telling him something good went straight to his head. Such an EGO.
I am sick that I fed it for so long. Made him look good, and he never, NEVER, thanked me, or showed he appreciated any of it. I mean, sure, he thanked me for making dinner, thanked me for sewing him work clothes, thanked me for gifts, but I mean that I basically gave him a FAMILY, that sort of life and love to come home to, not that he noticed, or was grateful.
I found a list an old girlfriend wrote him that he had saved. At the top of it it said "You say I never say anything nice about you, so here" and then it listed such things she liked about him like his truck, his wardrobe, etc... total shallow attributes and nothing of any substance. O, she liked his sex skills... GOod grief.
And he SAVED the letter!
And here I wrote him one too, but you know what? I don't care that he saves them, uses them as some sort of proof that he's OK, because to read her letter wasn't a compliment at all. I mean, it was so base, so fakey. My letter was more deep, but still... a person is not the sum of their attributes, or actions, and where is his humility in ether of those lists? It isn't there at all!
The fact that he prizes himself on such stuff is really sad.
He was going to make me a list at one point of what I have given him (the good things), but I asked him not to. I said I was aware of what I gave him and I'd rather he didn't acknowledge it.
I said I would take credit for teaching him how to correctly pronounce a couple of things, but that there's no way I wanted a list.
The truth is that there's no way I want to hear his lame reasons he bases what he called "loving" me on. I can picture the list already-- Um#1. You made me meals. #2. You scrubbed my back. #3 you bought me a bike rack. #4 you gave me my first power tool....
Whatever! Like I need that!
And I'm sickened when I realize how much money I spent buying HIM presents. I mean, it was like there wasn't anything I could give him that wasn't material that he would accept. But sure, he'd accept fancy and ultimately totally wonderfully thoughtful presents from me.
Damn, I was a good wife!
But I'm sickened by it becasue every time I gave him something I had a stupid hope that he'd see how much I loved him.
And of course, it never worked.
Can I say "SUCKER?"
LOL
Yeah, well, the good news is I don't want any of it back. It was the only language we both understood. My giving him great gifts, and he liking them.
And he did bring me roof mount for my own bike rack today.
And he's letting me watch his cat while he's on vacation. I love the cat. He's one of the coolest cats I've ever met-- he's more like a person than a cat.
But seeing him today was weird. Didn't make eye contact, didn't say more than 2 sentences. He drove 1.5 hours to drop stuff off and didn't spend more than 5 minutes at my house... he's headed out for vacation with his dad. His dad was here too, and didn't even come inside. Was going to leave wihtout even saying hello/goodbye!
I never would have fit in with that family.
Lucy

Knew it was totally over when I found out and again, he was not being totally honest but I knew...that OW was pregnant. XH made her go to my son's soccer games, but because of the church league it was in and because they were living in sin, she would stand at the far end of the field and act like she was NOT with my xh. It was wierd...the other parents especially the moms, knew about why we were divorcing and they weren't especially friendly to her...but very to me. She had to stand there and see my xh actually walk up and stand beside or near me during the games...and she was shamefully standing waaaaaay on the other end of the field like a dirty little secret. Will she be front and center showing off her new ring and baby at the competetive league games this spring? Probably. Probably because it's NOT a church league. I am still the mom and could really care less.

By that time (fall 2003), I had exhausted whatever had been left (I mean probably .00000001% that was still left) in my LB. It had been defunct for about a year. But the reality OW was preggers did it for me. I wanted nothing else.

You really do have a straw that breaks the camel's back.

It will hit you like a ton of bricks that it is gone and over. A single day of clarity and sense that comes unexpectedly.

You know what confused the heck out of me?
The sex.
The sex my H and I had was still really really good.
Everytime I'd get up the confidence to leave him, I'd remember our sex life, and it was still good. Or we'd have make up sex, and all nasty thoughts I had beleived about him would be gone. I mean, if he really didn't love me, he wouldn't have been so considerate, he wouldn't ahve put on the music, lit the candles, given me a massage first for 20 minutes... he wouldn't have waited for my pleasure before seeeking his own...
Wow-- now I see that even in sex, the compliment was for him. Our sex life was good because he liked the ego boost it gave him to think of himself as a truely good lover.
I mean, it was always all about him, his performance, his plan for the sex du jour.
It was never about my needs or wants, my input was almost always discarded because he knew better, or had an even better idea.
Narcissistic, or what?
Scary, huh? I almost fell for it for good.
Lucy

Wow, this post has really helped me with what I'm feeling. I've gone round and round in my head trying to grasp what is going on. I am experiencing the same feelings...I don't cry anymore! I've cried and cried for years, hiding in the bathroom, praying for him to treat me with respect, not always being so angry at me, looking for the words to tell him how I feel. I don't cry anymore and I'm at peace with that.

But I still need to vent and look for some feedback if anyone has the time to read what I have to say here.....We've been married for 19.5 years, 4 daughters ages 2-13. He asked me for a divorce this past november. At first I begged him NO! We can't do this to our girls. I promised I'D CHANGE. I don't know why I said that when I've done all I could to hold this marriage together. He agreed, but after 3 days, I couldn't take it. It was as though I had given him permission to be even more critical, more vocal, more IN CONTROL. The list of things that he wanted on a daily basis grew 10 fold. I couldn't do it. I told him, "if after 20 years of marriage and 4 kids you're not happy, then we need to divorce." I cried, his response was, "Why are you crying, this is what YOU wanted." WHAT? Again, putting blame on me, controlling my thoughts. I told him that I don't want people knowing why we're divorcing, its none of their business. His response? "Ok, I was just going to say that I couldn't make you happy anymore". WHAT!? He doesn't WANT to make me happy. Here it is February, we're still married, haven't told our kids or anyone. There is 'no plan' so I don't want to say anything to our girls. I don't know what's going on. He still treats me terrible. I NEVER know what is going to set him off. I walk around on eggshells. It has been years of this kind of stress living with 'Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde'. I have come to the conclusion that he's an alcoholic. I truly believe that now and that is what affects his mood swings. He's "edgy". No, he's not falling down drunk every night. But he does have to have 4-7 beers a night. And if I run out of beers in the fridge? I don't even want to know what the result of that would be. If someone HAS to have a handful of beers everynight, then something is wrong. Do you agree??????

I didn't want to divorce 'for the sake of the children.' Now, I'm reversed. Because of the children, we need to be divorced. I can't bring up 4 girls with a controlling, demanding, yelling, insecure man who always wants a beer. That's not what they need. I have to do this so they don't make the same mistake I did. My girls are afraid of their dad. Has he ever hit them? No. But they still fear him.

It all started getting worse a year ago. He started exercising daily. Trying to lose weight.
Drinking more beer 'as part of his diet' and not eating. He's NEVER at the dinner table anymore with the family. Getting more aggressive sexually. He actually wanted me to partake in sodomy. I absolutely refused. He tells me that if I loved him with passion, I would do it. No, I won't. He CAN'T control me sexually also. So he feels I don't love him.

"The" day came one week ago when I talked back to him. I have NEVER talked back to him. Something just told me not to do that. I did talk back that morning, without even thinking, and he grabbed me around the neck with both hands. I don't even remember what he said to me. It was surreal. But that sealed it for me. He is now getting physical. What's next? We have to get out of here. I do have to proceed with this divorce for the sake of my girls and not try to work it out "because of the girls."

Thanks for listening. Have you ever dealt with trying to figure out if your husband is an alcoholic? I read once, "if you have to ask, then he is." What about sodomy? Why would someone suddenly take such an interest in it?
I don't know if I'll ever figure this all out, but I need to find my old self again and show my girls what a normal life is like.

Gymratmom,
Wow, you've really come a long way. Kudos for realizing you need to divorce him now.
I just watched a talk show yesterday-- the manager of the NY Yankees was speaking out about domestic violence. He hadn't been abused, but grew up walking on egg shells and has had a lot of problems with his self-esteem and confidence-- cyclical moods, etc. All because his dad was a total meany.
I don't know why your H would hvae a sudden interest in sodomy. Probably just to feel control-- especially if he can make you do something you don't want to.
Or it could be that he's gay and has been in total denial, even to himself?
I don't know. COuld be he saw it in a movie and is bored sexually.
You need to do what is best for you.
Who cares who wins the arguement?
File for divorce. change the locks while he's at work. Have some cash set aside in case you need to leave. I'd tell a close friend/family member, or call a YWCA in your area.
I always talked back to my H. There was no way in heck I was going to let him put me down, insult me, and just take it.
I paid dearly for having a spine, but it was either fight back, of let my spirit be squelched. I would have died if I hadn't have stuck up for myself in a way he could understand. It was a survival tool for me.
Just as your silence was a survival mode for you.
Granted, my marriage only lasted but 2 years...
I wonder how things would have gone if I'd kept my mouth shut more often.
I personally think it's great that you talked back. It shows some spunk. Remember that you did it, and savor it.
But I have to warn you, it doesn't sound like something you should do again.
If he EVER lays a hand on you again, don't even think about it, go someplace safe and just automatically dial 911.
Even if you talked back, it doesn't mean you "asked" for it. You're allowed to have spunk, you are allowed to not totally meet his needs 24/7. A person has to stick up for themselves. You are allowed to be yourself. Leave if you feel the urge to talk back.
But be careful. He won't see talking back that way, and can probably even convince you to see it his way as well.
Don't take his side. Uphold your boundaries and standards for yourself. You are the mother of 4 girls. They need a positive role model, and so far you've shown them how big your heart is and how tolerant your patience is. Now it's time to show them where and how to draw the line.
Remember who you are. You're strong.
And probably tired too.
I wish you peace.
Lucy

How did I know? I thought about him coming to me & saying he wanted to reconcile. The thought made me feel sick, I couldn't picture me being able to be myself, I saw myself not being as close & open with my boys.

The picture of a happy marriage & happy family just didn't fit any more.

My IC asked me this: How much of a beating do you want to take? The answer is I don't want to take a beating any more in the hopes my stbx will own up to mistakes, find the courage to deal with problems, & be able to be intimate, honest, & loving with me.

This, plus I enjoyed a couple of conversations with another man (a fellow gallery artist) that showed me there are nice men, open men, emotional men who know how to share themselves.

This is only a friendnship, a shared interest in art, so please don't tell me to be carefull since I'm still married. It has only showed me I have the capacity to see other men as healthy individuals, can make a friend, & enjoy shared interests.

Throw in a couple of fantasies, not about stbx & I know it's over.

Thanks Lucy for your words of encouragement. I won't 'talk back' again unless I have someone with me. And I didn't even say anything terrible...He didn't like that something wasn't clean so I said "Then clean it yourself." That's it! He would have said exactly that to anyone any day of the week. I say it to him, and I get attacked.

What is very ironic is that his own mother fully supports me. She told me she will even come help me pack and help with the girls, not to get rid of me, but to protect me. She is only one of two people that I have confided in. His own mother. And I keep telling myself that. And she keeps telling me, "You've done nothing wrong". She's wonderful.

I just don't want to look back 10 years from now and think "It wasn't that bad. I should have worked it out." I don't want regrets. I'm keeping a journal to write down how I feel and what he says and his behavoir as a reminder so that it isn't all a blur and I DON"T say, "It wasn't that bad...."

The Journal is an excellent Idea.
Come back here and read your posts too.
I re read a journal from the good days and it didn't make me want him back.
If I can do that and still have the resolve to be done with the marriage, then I must have turned that corner they say once you turn there's no going back.
Then I reread the journal from the Fog days (when I didn't know what was going on-- before I was really being honest wiht myself that I felt abused) and it made me so sad.
That journal made me sadder than the ones in which I"m blabbing about how bad things became.
I think the confusion was the hardest part for me.
I might be wrong, but it sounds like that is where you are?
For us, after the confused stage was the "let's get real stage" in which we tried to work on things. Went to counseling, tried to open up, and did welll for a while.
Then there was the slip- one wrong word, comment, or look, and we were right back to where we were.
That would have been OK-- to regress a little bit here and there-- but my H didn't handle the aftermath any differently than he used to--although he did not become violent, he was still self-centered and blamed me-- was convinced I was the problem.
It just felt like the same old crud dressed up in a plea that "I'm Changing! How could you hold me back to what I was?"
I was changing too, we WERE getting healthier, but alas, my X can't help who he is-- an insecure, fear and ego-based person with little real confidence or emotional tools.
The long and short of it is that I don't have it in me to be kind, patient, and "wait and see" if he ever becomes something substantially different. He would need to love himself and be curious about me, my interests, my likes and dislikes, he'd have to take me as my authentic self, and there's just no getting there for me.
plus, if there ever was another slip... Well, we'd have to just admit that we have the capacity to be mean to eachother, but we also have the capacity to say we're sorry, to mean it, and allow ourselves to heal without carrying the offense around.
I can't see us doing that. I can do that on my own, sure, but for some reason, that man gets under my skin, and there he stays.
I have a lot of resentments, even when not angry, I am pressed to say anything honestly nice about him. I can say the dumb stuff like "He's good looking. A good bread-winner" but those are pretty shallow compliments when set against the backdrop of all the negative traits I also know he is.
Anyway, keep posting. This site really helps.
Lucy

Despite the advice, I lowered my husbands violence charges, he came out of the DA's office with harassment and requiring 36 hours of DV counseling then it'll be off his record with two years probation. I didn't want to go to court in front of a jury trial, there wasn't evidence from the day he hurt me, no bruises, I should have called two months before when there was damage, I moved out and moved back in just to be a bigger doormat for him to walk over as he came and went, vent his problems on, blame his life on, igore. I have give him chance after chance, even tried to get an apartment near him so he could see the baby more, instead he chose to be a jerk, I canciled the rent agreement and moved five hours away to where we used to live.

So I'm dumb enough to try one more marriage counselor due to the advice of a Dobson counselor that I talked with for hours. One more professional to analyze the situation. Of course he did what domestic violence counselors said he would, saw my clean cut conservative banker husband, heard all his lied and told me I needed to be medicated. Really. Then he said in a session alone with him that I was guarding my heart closely because I grew up in a family with three brothers who verbally bashed me their entire lives and still do. So a counselor online told me this is typical and I know it is from books and the dv counselors, that my husband will go to counseling and pretend to be the perfect husband, "gaslighting" me as one counselor called it as he won't accept blame for anything. He only comes out feeling and looking good if he makes me look foolish.

For example, in the session I said I couldn't find daycare, had to move the baby got sick, I almost lost my business as I'm self employed. The counselor asked about agreements with the baby, I said books say a mom should be with the baby most of the time at this age. My husband then the nice guy offered to take vacation days to help with the baby. The counselor was thinking, wow, what a "nice" husband, what's wrong with HER? He didn't see how months and months went by with my husband at home calling the baby my job, refusing to ever even help for an hour, slept down the hallway, watched tv at night in the basement completely ignoring both of us... When I got mad he actually drew up a chart, showing how he was the so called breadwinner and what he does, saying he doesn't have time for the kid that he went on and on for years wanting.

So whatever my husband said the day he went to the counselor alone without me, gave the counselor the right to tell me I have to be medicated. This on top of my lowering my husband's charges just enables him more. I went to this counselor for Christian advice, instead he enabled my husband, said I should stay in an abusive marriage, didn't even ask the right questions. A Christian counseling site online said he's counseling by psychology and not the Bible. That God wouldnt' want me to stay in a situation with such abuse, that I've given him too many chances and that the violence will be worse if I return. That he'll continue to "gas light" me in front of counselors who seem to stupid to figure it out.

I can't have my little boy in such a marriage, I have been so angry, it's just built and built into pure resentment for this man. I dropped the baby off over the weekend, stayed for awhile as I was half sick from working and staying up all night with a sick kid for a week. My husband didnt' say anything of meaning, just played with the baby in front of me, I think to make me feel guilty as he wanted me to stay so bad. OF course he wants me to move right back in, says we'll just quit fighting, hasn't even "really" apologized for this mess other then one mumble of he's sorry two months ago. If he was sorry he'd be doing anything to show he's wrong, and he'd even admit it, not blame me for even half of it because it's not half my fault. He went over the line over and over again, he was told over and over he can't do that, he continued. I left several times, came back for more.

I know it's likely best if I go for a quick divorce, I have to fly home to be with my dying father in a few days, I don't have the energy to do it. It might only be a month with my dad, he's more important then a stupid husband who's a little boy in a grownups body. My father never criticized my mom in front of children, was kind, loving, stable and quiet. My husband can't even begin to measure up to a real man, my dad had flaws, but my husband - what a mean, cruel little man. Yes, it's not just me that's figured this out, my husband causes trouble without me, I'm the third wife and he's lost three jobs in the seven years I've been with him. His current boss is giving him the notice this week, seems as though his power and control don't make customers or bosses happy either. No matter, I'm just beat and need to stay away from him.

Unfortunately, your experience is not uncommon. The good news is, you know enough of your own mind to be able to understand what happened while you were there. Some people who haven't had time away from their abusive situations could conceivably, listen to the "professional" and think yeah, "they're right, I'm crazy." So, kudos to you for your strength in recognizing this.

I've had a similar experience. The thing is, it only pumps the abuser up. It confirms their side of the story, so to speak and allows them to continue their own denial while masking the anger and fear they carry.

Good Luck.