Do I have the right to confront the OW? - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Hi, all. I want to ask you all if you think I have the right to confront this woman and tell her of all the pain her actions have caused me. I realize that it will probably go in one ear and out the other, because she never cared about my feelings, or this wouldn't have happened. But I have something to say to her, and I need to get this off my chest before it drives me crazy. I don't even want to look at her, so it would most likely be a letter. I have confronted H about it, why shouldn't I confront OW, it is partly her fault as well. Why should she go scott free? I don't feel I can heal until I've had the chance to let her know exactly how I feel. I just want this all out of my mind. Your opinions will be appreciated.

ktgirl, you have every right to make your peace. I have said many things to OW. Through e-mail. Nothing derogatory (sp?). Nothing mean. Just straight forward talk. The worst thing I've ever said to her was "Do you care that he is married, do you care that we have a 2 year old daughter, do you care that we wanted to have another child?". That's it. I have now told her to not to make any contact w/my H or we'd take legal action. I don't have hate towards OW. She is nothing to me. She is cruel and weak in her actions. But she can't help it. All I can do is be the person I am and be proud of it. And not allow her to torment me. She's not worth it.If it will make you feel better. Do it. I would. I did. Good luck. Let me know how it goes. LSM

hey ktgirl, how are ya doing? i think that it is totally up to you. i often wanted to, but am too emotional and would have broke down in front of her, which probably would have made her feel better. so i decided not to. some people feel they must, i have done okay without ever speaking to her and hope it stays that way. even when we go to court, i don't want to talk to her, just seeing her will be quite enough for me i am sure.sometimes though, and it seems the OW in your case would probably fit into this, but it would be a waste of words and make her feel like she succeeded. they like to see us wives act angry and mad. it gives them power. so choose carefully. i have wrote many letters i never planned on sending and that always makes me feel better. but talking to someone with no feelings or principles just seems useless in my case, i doubt it would do any good for me to waste my breath talking to the OW in my case. you have to look at yours and decide what you want to get out of it and if it is worth the emotions you will probably stir up, especially if she tries to tell you stuff about the affair. if it will help you get on with life, then do it, and i think the letter is a good idea. just be careful is she is the vengeful type she could keep the letter and try to get restraining order against you or something, if it seems threatening. words, at least usually, are gone once said, writing is there to read and re read, and can be misconstrued. just write your feelings plain and simple and send it off to her if it will make you feel better. but don't expect her to beg for your forgiveness. i think i would have a heart attack if the OW asked me for forgiveness. i would be dumbfounded, i rarely have heard stories of that. it would be weird. nice, but weird. then i wouldn't keep her as a monster in my head. but monster she is, and i think that is how she really is anyway.well, i have rambled on. hope you are doing okay. talk to ya later.happy girl[This message has been edited by happy_girl (edited July 29, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by happy_girl: hey ktgirl, how are ya doing? i think that it is totally up to you. i often wanted to, but am too emotional and would have broke down in front of her, which probably would have made her feel better. so i decided not to. l[This message has been edited by happy_girl (edited July 29, 2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Happy Girl, Hi!!! It's so good to hear from you again. I know you've got a lot going on with your situation now, so I'm glad that you find the time to still help me. I don't know. I am way too emotional, and if it were a face-to-face, I'd be less interested in speaking my mind, I think I could actually become violent, I have so much anger. I've pretty much ruled against that. I just have a temper, and 1, she is pregnant, and 2, I don't want to go to jail. I think there should be a place on here somewhere where we WS can go to write an open letter to the OW's and OM's in our own situations. These people would never see them, but at least we'd get these things off our collective chests. As for H, he knows I'm still angry, and we have long discussions over it, and he knows it's going to take time. I have to say we've had quite a breakthrough, due to us filling out one of the questionnaires on this site. He is more willing to discuss why we got into this problem in the first place, as well as the whole situation, and we do this without him getting upset!!! I am hearing things from him now that I wish he'd said a long time ago!! I am so glad you recommended this site to me, I owe you so much for the change it has brought about in my life. He's opening up, and I'm opening up, and we are actually getting something accomplished! I know it still won't be easy, but it's moving along a lot better than it was. I've decided not to press him any further on the OC issue. He has a lot of anger at OW, says he hates her for what she did to him, and what she cost him that he's not sure he'll ever get back (our relationship) so I'm afraid that he may take out his anger toward the mother on the child. Not abusive, but just have an attitude about the child, and children are sensitive and can pick these things up. It would be more detrimental to the child with his current mindset, so it's best he stays away. Again, thank you so much. I think I'll just do like you did, write the letters, but never send. Or maybe keep a journal, where I write the things bothering me down when I'm having a bad day. That, plus the communication with H should help. Talk to ya later. What's going on with you?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by lostsoulmate: ktgirl, you have every right to make your peace. I have said many things to OW. Through e-mail. Nothing derogatory (sp?). Nothing mean. Just straight forward talk. The worst thing I've ever said to her was "Do you care that he is married, do you care that we have a 2 year old daughter, do you care that we wanted to have another child?". That's it. I have now told her to not to make any contact w/my H or we'd take legal action. I don't have hate towards OW. She is nothing to me. She is cruel and weak in her actions. But she can't help it. All I can do is be the person I am and be proud of it. And not allow her to torment me. She's not worth it.If it will make you feel better. Do it. I would. I did. Good luck. Let me know how it goes. LSM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi LSM, I was pretty raw when I started this topic, and while it seems a nice idea on the outset, in my particular situation, I think it would cause more harm than good. The OW is definitely not above using any communication from me to get me in trouble. She already attempted to get me fired from my job, when that didn't work, she quit working there, and began stalking my H. I've pretty much decided to keep a journal, to write down any feeling I have about it, that she will never see, but will get it off my chest. It seems the safer approach with a whack job like her. I feel much better now, and I think on the whole, this is the best thing to do. Thanks for your opinion though. I just let my emotions carry me off way too far and too fast. I need to get a handle on that if this is going to work.

hi! sorry i didn't write you back at your email address. i am having trouble with my aol and am actually getting DSL soon, so write me at my new address. plaajaas96@netscape.net. then i can get your address again.we are doing fine. nothing new, just waiting for the childsupport issue to come up. we are waiting to be contacted by the courts about the dna testing. well, write to me!! then we can talk some more. glad you like this site as much as i do. it has really helped me.happy_girl

ktgirl:You have every right to do exactly as you please and exactly as you see fit. She has given you the right, the power. If you want to see her, talk to her, write to her, go ahead, if you think you can handle yourself. Remember, she intruded herself into your life when she had unprotected sex with a man she knew was married, you did not intrude yourself into her life. She's the one who has opened the door to confrontation with her actions.A year ago on August 4th, I suddenly got an impulse to call the airlines, book a flight, pack my bags and drive to the airport, get on a plane and fly to NY City, grab a cab to her house, scope it out, get a hotel, rented a car, drove back to her house, sat and waited til she drove into her driveway, approached her, asked if we could 'talk' and proceeded to sit for six hours on her deck answering and asking lots of questions.I had nothing to loose. I had to see what, if anything, I was up against. I had to meet her, see her, talk to her, get answers and make a decision as to whether or not I could stay in the marriage. I decided I could.I have written her two letters; one was a horrible four page diatribe on her character that was sent a week after discovery of her condition.The second was sent two months after our meeting imploring her to do the right thing and give the child up for adotion. That's when she got particularly nasty and slapped a phony Order for Protection suit against me. She claimed I said things I never said, claimed I did things I never did and claimed I threatened her, which I never did. it was simply a retalitory action for not liking what I said and being forced to face the truth.By law, I am forbidden to call, write, visit, have any contact whatsoever with the slut until a year from the date of the OFP, which expires on March 1, 2001. On that day, a follow up letter from me will be waiting in her mailbox.One of my aspirations is to become the Poster Girl for every OW's worst nightmare.My intent is not to be vindictive, but to get her to realize that her actions have caused us incredible financial hardship, and to be reasonable and try to force her or appeal to any remote sense of decency she may retain (besides water) to accept a likewise reasonable support payment; to call off the dogs and stop tormenting us or she will herself be tormented.My intent is to make her sorry she refused to talk to me that first week of her involvement with my husband. My intent is to dispense a sort of 'aversion therapy' so she will never ever consider doing this again to any other woman.If she would have done the decent thing and disappeared to raise it herself and accept a reasonable support amount without suing us, or giving it up for adoption so we could all go on with our lives, especially for the sake of the child, or had any consideration for any of our children or for our marriage and backed off when she had the opportunity, she would never have had to hear from me at all. She opened the door to all the contact.Catnip =^^=[This message has been edited by catnip (edited July 29, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by catnip: ktgirl: Remember, she intruded herself into your life when she had unprotected sex with a man she knew was married, you did not intrude yourself into her life. She's the one who has opened the door to confrontation with her actions. [This message has been edited by catnip (edited July 29, 2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Catnip, Yes, this is exactly how I feel. I did not ask her to come into my life and turn it upside down, she chose to bring me in by seducing my husband. I am on an egroup, and have raised this subject there, but everyone there almost says I need to direct all my anger at my H, because he could have said no. I do let him know what's on my mind, and we are actually discussing the thing now without him running away from it. He's not innocent, and he did betray me, and I still feel it. But my point has always been, hardly a man alive will turn down attention of whatever kind is offered if things are going badly at home. Especially, like in our case if he is carrying anger towards his W because of hours spent apart due to working different shifts. If she hadn't been there to offer, KNOWING HE WAS MARRIED, then it'd be a different story. I can say what I want about it to him. I just want the chance to do that with her as well, as like you say, "aversion therapy" if there is any humanity in her at all. This I seriously doubt, but at least I've made a try. I couldn't do it face-to-face, I am too angry for that. But I can write very well and express myself. I want to tell her how low down on the food chain I think she is. I also want to tell her that she needs to leave this fantasy she has of H and her and the baby, because this man hates her. Because of her actions, she lost any chance she might have had to get him in her life. That and anything else I can do to get her to go on with her life, and leave ours alone. I know he did wrong, but it does take two to tango, why should he be the only one receiving negative feedback from what happened. I think she should know, I want to make her think, what if the roles were reversed? How would she feel if I actively pursued her husband (not just the shack-ups she's used to) and then tried to pull this s**t with her man. I want to get that through her thick skull, that what goes around comes around, and one day it will be her turn. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Thanks for your advice. I know I have to be really careful what I do in this situation, because she is a real psychob***h. We'll see. Thanks again, Catnip, for understanding almost exactly how I feel. You and happy_girl have been Godsends to me here. Don't know what I'd do without you both.

ktgirl:I should come with a warning label/disclaimer that I do NOT recommend anyone else doing what I have done. I happen to be surprisingly confrontational and have a cavalier attitude anyway. This attitude surprises even me...I didn't know I was this way until this happened to me. The events of the past two years brought this side out of me that must have always been there, but dormant. I figure there isn't much anyone can do to me because all the most horrible things imaginable have already been done to me. There's a lot of freedom in not giving a sh**.Sending those two letters and showing up on her doorstep unannounced gave me a great deal of satisfaction. I have a tendency to obsess and acting out quelled some of those obsessions. I want to win at all costs in every area and find that I am furious that this has happened in addition to many other things I have experienced.I thought when I married my husband that my sad times were over and I was being given a gift from God to make up for the bad times. Little did I know twenty years ago that one day the most devastating heartache of them all would end up on my doorstep.This forum has given me insight, courage, some peace, some explanations and a lot of comfort. I feel so much more grounded, even if I tend to be militant, than I would have had I not had this site to come to. It saved my life, it saved my sanity and taught me the principles I need to move ahead and restore my marriage.My husband is completely responsible for his aggressive pursuit of the OW. BUT, she could have said NO. When I called her after I first found out about them after their first weekend together, she could have ended it, she could have said NO. Instead, she went ahead full force. When I called her after their second weekend crying and begging again, she had the opportunity to end it and say NO. The third and final weekend, she had the opportunity to say NO. Throughout the entire threee weekends, she had the opportunity to say NO, use birth control, protect her body, all along knowing full well that I was deeply in love with my husband and wanted more than anything to preserve our marriage and gutted myself telling her how much it all meant to me, how sick he was, how mentally ill he was, that he was an alcoholic, and yet, she went ahead and did all those things anyway.THIS is why we hate the OW so. Because they knew, because they were pleaded with, because they had intimacies with our husbands reserved only for us, because they are heartless and selfish and evil, because they deliberately got themselves pregnant and changed our lives forever, because they kept the kid and are causing us financial hardship, because the court protects them and the kid instead of us and our children. And for me, most of all, because she had my husband's child and I cannot.We are in tentative recovery. Most days are wonderful, many are hard and upsetting, but by and large we are moving forward. Now I have to work on my frame of mind and get over this.Catnip =^^=

ktgirl,I am struggling with this right now. We are having to drop our appeal and start to pay this whore. I want to tell her to her face that we are paying her like you would pay a prostitute. This is the second time she has done this. Waited to sleep with someone who was intoxicated, have a kid, and collect the money. I figure if she knows that everyone thinks that she is a whore than she might think twice about going for number 3. I don't know how to direct you. Everyday I have to take deep breaths not to confront her. Good luck. I do know that you have to be careful, because there are alot of OWs who are just waiting for that confrontation so that they can throw things in your face. Which doesn't make things better. I figure if my H ever gets another job, they work together now, then I will confront her. Cause then we will be leaving this town. babstr.

Ktgirl,You've already received good advice. I don't know what else I can say except to tell you about my experience. When I first found out about the OW and the pregnancy I was furious. I demanded - I mean I demanded her number from my H. I told her how I felt and asked her if she knew my H was married and if she knew we had two kids. Her response was and I quote, "He was wrong and I was wrong." She didn't say she was sorry because she wasn't. She did say she was concerned about her baby because he was an "innocent victim". I told her I had two other victims living with me. (my sons) I called her another time about finances and she told me that any finances or visitation discussions about the baby is between her and my H. After talking to a friend about this, I realized something. Anytime I talked to her, especially when my H was confused about who he wanted to be with, I was giving her power. I was letting her know that I was losing the grip on my H. My phone calls sent that message. My point - We can say all we want to these OW. But we know how they are. Most of them knew our H's were married, and I believe most of them deliberately got pregnant. If they went that far, do you really think they would be concerned about a phone call or letter? I know how you feel. You have a lot of anger, and want to get it out. If you're concerned obout her using your words against you later, be careful about what you write. I just advise you to write or call once to get it out of system and then forget it.

I have always thought that taking the time & effort to bother speaking to the OW in any form was bringing me down to her level. I have not tried to contact her in any way.Well, I fell apart the other night & called. I was out of town all week with my two boys, taking them to visit my H parents. Spent all week there. When I get back he tells me the OW has delivered the baby & he went to be in delivery room (I had asked him not to do that). Then he says she has called several times & he went & visited with her & OC. That was just too much. I came unglued & ranted. I don't even recall all I said. I am still physically worn out by the episoide. Anyway, I called her... with him standing there. Screamed & yelled about why she was trying to harm my children. Told her that I prayed no one ever tried to hurt her child like she was trying to harm mine. Used several curse words. Came unglued. Told her to never contact my H again, or my lawyer would have her up on stalking charges. Anyway, it was ugly & actually it really didn't make me feel any better. Just sucked the life out of me. I don't know that it was productive & went against everything I have vowed not to do (allow the OW to poision my soul or attitude or influence my decisions in any way). I am not sorry I did it, nor am I proud. I lost control & was so very angry that my H was over there visiting & bonding with the OC while I take our sons to visit his invalid mother. It just got too much. You have the right to contact this whore, but do not expect the conversation to be productive. These females are so wrapped up in their own little schemes. There is nothing you can say that will make her back off or feel remorse. The OW in my case knew my H was married & had 2 boys. She didn't care then & she doesn't care now. At best at this point she thinks I am a raving lunatic & will try to stay clear of me. Carolyn

Carolyn/takingcare:I am absolutely incredulous hearing this....you went to visit your husband's invalid mother. The OW delivers while you are out of town...and your husband is in the delivery room? What is he thinking? He had no business being there because it is not something that the OC would remember anyway and only creates a connection with the OW that makes it more difficult to shake. His being there also gives her validation, which she should not have under any circumstances.The ONLY responsibility your husband has to that child is financial, beyond that, it is basically up to you to determine if YOU can tolerate for your husband and the OC to have a relationship. It is your call, no one else's.A priest once told me when I asked him what my/his/our responisiblity was to the OC. He said, "Your first and primary responsibility is to each other and to your marriage. It is the base, the foundation, from which anything and everyone else comes after. Your husband owes this OC nothing, except financial support."I was so relieved to hear that, as was my husband, as he was torn until our 'duties' were explained. Getting permission to focus on his marriage which was a commitment that precluded the OW and OC, relieved him of feeling obliged to be an active participant in their lives. The priest put the priorities in perspective and it is something I can live with.Putting the marriage ahead of everything and everyone else gives you both strength as a couple to get through this ordeal. The POLICY OF JOINT AGREEMENT means that he does NOTHING without your complete and enthusiatic agreement, and this goes for you as well.I am so sorry, Carolyn...I know your husband felt obliged to be there even though he wasn't. His place is with you; and if you happen to be out of town, his place is at home feeding the cat.In a weird way, I feel empathy for our stupid wayward spouses who have done these horrible things and now feel as though they must make restitution to everyone, including the OW, which in my opinion is ridiculous. They are confused and trying to do what is right but they fail to consider that their attention to the OW/OC scenario is destructive, dangerous and feels like a betrayal to us.Go see a priest affiliated with Retrouvaille, recovery for troubled marriages. He will tell you to put your marriage first, make it your number 1 priority.Catnip =^^=

Carolyn, What your H did was wrong wrong WRONG!!!!!! (But of course you knew That!) I'm "flabbergasted"!!! You have every right to lay down serious SERIOUS ultimatums to you H. You can't control your H or the (X?)OW, but if your H values your relationship, you deserve bettter respect!!!!! Joint Policy of Agreement, indeed! Lovebusters doesn't even cover what he did!! I'm so SO sorry for your pain in this betrayal... while visiting his ailing mother, no less! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Ugh.ktgirl, I've spoken to the XOW twice. Once a couple weeks after Dday, and with a short list of specific prepared questions. I did not name-call. I wanted stuff my DH could "not remember" that was important to me(like when it started--she was a "friend" of ours), and I'm proud that I got what info I wanted without stooping to her level.I again called in Feb. this year, with H's agreement, to discuss her unreasonable demands for frequent email and a (long distance alone?!--hahaha) visit from my H; again, I did not namecall, though I did yell quite a bit). Didn't make much headway (she is NOT realistic), only temporarily felt better, but did get how crazy her thinking is. Followed up with a carefully worded letter explaining what IS and ISN'T appropriate (ala 4 counselors and 2 pastors), and she has not been nasty since, which helps me. Have NEVER gotten apology or remorse; won't hold my breath waitin'.So I guess it depends on what you hope to get out of a rant/phone call. It's not realistic to hope for much out of the XOW, by definition a dysfunctional person. You also should consider whether there is something she might so to retaliate that could make you more miserable. Writing rant letters I never sent made me feel better temporarily. It's also been good to just concentrate on my OWN family whenever I CAN (not always possible--cyclical). Best wishes, J

If you have never had to give up a child for adoption, you really can't ask another adult to do it regardless of what the circumstances are. Giving a child up for adoption is one of the most heart wrenching things a person can go through. What you all are suffering is just because of the OW, it's because of your spouses' actions. They are both responsible. Of course it would be no heartbreak for your H's if the OC was put up for adoption. He just wants to be rid of all evidence of his mistake and to get on with his life. But for a woman to do this is a terrible decision and not a decision that most people are strong enough to make. Unless you personally have given up a child for adoption you have no right under any circumstances to tell someone else to do it. What happened happened because both your H and the OW did something wrong. But you expect the OW to then make this huge decision and painful sacrifice and you resent that she won't do it and that your H has to sacrifice instead. I'm not defending what the OW or your H did here. It's a terrible mess and you are the innocent party who did nothing to deserve it. But it is totally unfair to be angry at the OW because she didn't give her child, her own flesh and blood away, just because your H can toss it away. I went through an unplanned pregnancy and adoption when I was 15. I think about my child every day and hope that she contacts me some day. I ache for her every day. I know what I am talking about and nothing not even a rape would make me give up a child now. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to giving your child away. Do you? If you have never given a child up for adoption, you don't.del

del,NO offense but I don't believe that this was an adoption thread. I believe that it was mentioned in one of the posts, you answered as if that was the only discussion. Granted most of us don't know what it is like to give a child up for adoption. We all know that our h's made mistakes also. We are here to support each other, and listen to each other, not judge on comments. Just like I don't know what it is like to give a child up for adoption. I am sure you do not know the pain of having a OW/OC thrown in your face, and wreck havoc in your life unless you have lived it. I am not trying to be critical. But one of the last things that we need to hear is that it isn't only the OW's fault line, and once again how the OW is a saint for taking care of the OC. Alot of these women use the OC for money, they ONLY keep the OC for money. So maybe they weren't being so noble to not think about adoption. babstr

well said babstr, that post got me on a frenzy. i know i don't know what it is like to give a child up for adoption, but i do know how much it means to someone who can't have a child to be able to adopt one. i probably would have had a different opinion of this situation all of "us"(we know who we are) are in 5 years ago. probably would have said to leave and he should be with the child. well, no one knows what it is like to be in this situation until they are in it. and i wish it on no one. though it might shut some people up if they actually had to be in our shoes... would stop that judgemental, poor OW stuff pretty quick...happy_girl

You and happy_girl have been Godsends to me here. Don't know what I'd do without you both.[/B][/QUOTE]oh ktgirl, you are too nice. i am glad i can help someone. it is a bit therapeutic. i found that out volunteering on a rape/sexual abuse hotline, you learn a lot listening to others and they can also learn from you. write me when you get a chance. i lost your email address. hope you are doing well. i am okay. have my up days and down days. today is a bit of a down day, but tomorrow will be a new one and hopefully good. take care and talk to ya later!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

happy_girl

Delphi:Thirty years ago I gave up my son for adoption. I am more than completely qualified to demand that the OW do the same.My pain and sacrifice was nothing compared to the joy and love my bio son's family had in their hearts for him. My 'sacrifice' was his salvation. My pain and suffering is of absolutely NO CONSEQUENCE. It's just too damn bad for me. It was the consequences of my behavior at the time, and no reason for me to make him pay for it simply because I just "can't bear the thought of giving him up and never seeing him again." That was MY problem and something I have to live with. He shouldn't have to do without and live without the love and guidance and nurturing he deserved. He deserved to have parents who were married who did not conceive him in disgrace.Oh, and one footnote. As soon as I found out my 'boyfriend' was married, I never saw him again. He never knew of his bio-son, and more importantly, his wife never knew I existed. I spent the last four months of my pregnancy in my apartment only going out in my neighborhood so no one we knew would see me. Even if I would have kept my son, I would never in a million years taken him to court and asked for support. Years later when I was married and divorced, I got a job and took care of my other son on my own and never got one dime of court ordered support in 18 years. Ironically, the son I gave up had a better life than the one I had from my marriage. To keep my son would have been the most selfish thing in the world for me to do at the time, simply because I couldn't "part" with him. How incredibly SELFISH of me to do that to him. He would not have had a father to love and nurture him as he did, he would not have had the opportunities and the advantages that he did and if I would have selfishly kept him, I would have deprived him of a stable loving home environment.Yes, Delphi, I am suprememly qualified to make these demands. I am not asking anyone to do something I have not done myself. I am very passionate about this subject because I know exactly what I am speaking of.I don't give one rip if the OW is in pain or has to sacrifice or go through any torturous decisions. I only care that each child has an opportunity to a stable two parent home. I only care that the whore is forcing me to divorce to protect what little I have left and is forcing us to file bankruptcy and that our adult children not find out about this because it would destroy any remaining respect for their father.I COULD NOT CARE LESS ABOUT THE OW. IN FACT, I HOPE SHE SUFFERS FOR WHAT SHE HAS DONE TO ME/US.We all know what our husbands have done and they have paid dearly with their loss of self respect and the ensuing financial disaster and the destruction of their homes and marriages. I can hardly stand my husband's deep remorse and devastation--or mine. My husband tried to kill himself last January and left me a suicide note saying that if he were dead, she couldn't torture me anymore.So you and the bleeding heart do-gooders can get together and mewl about the 'pain' and 'sacrifice' of the OW who only keep their OC's for a meal ticket in many cases, and the ones who do love their children certainly don't love them enough to do the right thing by them. Just remember, where the OW's are concerned, it is the same selfishness that allows them to keep a kid they cannot provide for that allowed them to get into bed with a married man in the first place. Today, I have a relationship with my bio son and his family. I maintain a safe distance and never intrude myself into his life and as a result, I am not a threat and I am welcome in his family's home. In fact, I am considered a part of their family, a distant cousin or sister figure, but a part of the family nonetheless. I am extremely grateful for the opportunity to connect with him.You are right about one thing. Most of our husband's are ashamed and horrified by what they have done to their wives and children and families and feel deep remorse for their indescretion and the pain they have caused. And yes, they DO want to be rid of it and not have the horrible fallout torture their wives and deny their children becasue the OW selfishly kept a child she had no business keeping, let alone having, let alone screwing a man she knew was married yet in many, many cases, deliberately got herself pregnant and changed our lives forever.Catnip =^^=

I'm not a bleeding heart do gooder who is making excuses for anybody. I am sure not making excuses for your H's or the OW's. But having given a child up for adoption myself I can say I would never do it again. And just because I did it doesn't mean that I can demand that someone else do it. Maybe someone who is pregnant should listen to two sides like yours and mine before they make up their mind to give a baby up for adoption. Also not all children raised by single mothers are doomed to an awful life. When a man and a woman have sex they know that they might get pregnant. Even if they use birth control they know that it is a possibility. The problem is that your husbands took this risk without your consent with another woman. Now you are paying the price. That's not fair, for sure but that is the way it is. I realize that this is not an adoption forum so I won't go on about this. But I feel strongly that no one has a right to demand that a woman give a baby up for adoption or also demand that she have an abortion, because if someone could force someone to give a baby away why couldn't they force them to kill it? If your husbands had honored their vows and of the OW had said NO (which she should have and is wrong to have not said NO but by the way, you will never really know for sure what all was said by your H to her), the pregnancy would never have happened. I just know that no matter how I got pregnant and even if I was unknowingly pregnant by a married man, never again would I give a baby up for adoption. I can be a good mother and I would not be being selfish for keeping my baby and being a good mother and perhaps marrying and giving the child a stepfather. What's the difference between a step father and an adoptive father? Never again would I do it. Of course since I am past child bearing age it won't happen anyway. But, for me the pain was so deep and still is. I miss my daughter.Del

yowsers, now i know why you guys need this place to come to, it must have been terrible on the general or just found out boards. people so judgmental although they aren't in your shoes. i am so glad you guys had this forum when i came, i probably would have been scared away if i had to post my feelings on the general board. have a good day. happy_girl

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by babstr: ktgirl, I figure if she knows that everyone thinks that she is a whore than she might think twice about going for number 3. babstr. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Babstr, I seriously doubt that these women, the deliberate ones, care that people think they are whores. I think all they care about is themselves. They saw something they wanted, they went for it, the hell with anyone else's feelings, it's all "ME,ME,ME" with them. I would never do this to another woman in my life!! I guess it's all in how you are raised. I would never date someone who had been married to a family member, I would never date a friend's ex, I would not screw with a married man. I just have certain rules I have, and from what I see, these deliberate ones have no rules they follow except to please themselves. Notice everyone, that I am saying the "deliberate" ones, the women who knew the man was married. These are the only type of OW I am discussing here. I realize there are women who did not know the man was married, and they are not the ones I am referring to. I don't want anyone upset with me over not making the distinction. This discussion only deals with the "deliberate" b***h, who knew all along, and didn't care. Babstr, I think I'd go nuts if H and OW worked together. It'd probably be the end of my marriage. You must have incredible strength to deal with that. I don't think I can do that, I'm much too hot-headed. Good luck, and I hope he finds another job, for your sake.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by takingcare: Well, I fell apart the other night & called. I was out of town all week with my two boys, taking them to visit my H parents. Spent all week there. When I get back he tells me the OW has delivered the baby & he went to be in delivery room (I had asked him not to do that). Then he says she has called several times & he went & visited with her & OC. That was just too much. I came unglued & ranted. I don't even recall all I said. I am still physically worn out by the episoide. Anyway, I called her... with him standing there. Screamed & yelled about why she was trying to harm my children. Told her that I prayed no one ever tried to hurt her child like she was trying to harm mine. Used several curse words. Came unglued. Told her to never contact my H again, or my lawyer would have her up on stalking charges. Anyway, it was ugly & actually it really didn't make me feel any better. Just sucked the life out of me. I don't know that it was productive & went against everything I have vowed not to do (allow the OW to poision my soul or attitude or influence my decisions in any way). I am not sorry I did it, nor am I proud. I lost control & was so very angry that my H was over there visiting & bonding with the OC while I take our sons to visit his invalid mother. It just got too much. Carolyn<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Carolyn, I am so sorry for what you are going through. I hope you ripped into your H as well, because that was pretty rotten to do. He needs to remember the commitment he made to you and your children supercedes anything and everything. I can't believe he would be so insensitive. He's asking for trouble. If my H did that, that would be the end of us, because to me that would signal to me that he didn't care anymore about my feelings than the OW did, and if that were the case, they'd be welcome to each other. They would deserve each other. Notice, I am saying "in my case". I feel for you, and know that in any given situation, a person has to do what "they" feel is right. You are doing just that. Good for you. You are not a "raving lunatic", just a woman standing up for herself, and protecting her family. May God give you the strength to continue.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Delphi: Giving a child up for adoption is one of the most heart wrenching things a person can go through. What you all are suffering is just because of the OW, it's because of your spouses' actions. They are both responsible. Of course it would be no heartbreak for your H's if the OC was put up for adoption. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Delphi, Excuse me!!! We don't know heart-wrenching? Let me enlighten you a little. Heart wrenching is the man YOU ARE LEGALLY MARRIED TO FOR LIFE having an affair with a woman who KNEW HE WAS MARRIED, WANTED HIM ANYWAY, AND DELIBERATELY LET HERSELF GET PREGNANT TO TRY AND KEEP HIM!!!!! How dare you criticize us, and side with the OW. This thread was not started about forcing the OW to put OC up for adoption. It was started about "Confronting the OW". I know. I started it. I don't want her to put the kid up for adoption, never said I did. My husband made mistakes, but I am not trying to punish the child, in fact, if you check some of my other posts on this board, I have a very good attitude towards the OC, IT"S the OW who deliberately set out to take my man knowing full well he was married, that incurs my "well deserved" wrath. Nothing you can say will change that. The b***h deserves whatever she can get if you ask. and the only reason she did this was because she is too damn lazy to work, and now thanks to this, she has an income for the next 18 years, without having to do a thing, while I have to work my butt off to help H foot her bills. And she knows this. And I do have to help, because we are married, and what affects one, affects us both. Why should I feel concerned about her, she obviously is so attached to her baby that she hasn't found it necessary to quit drinking at the bar and using drugs yet? If you can't see where her head was and is at by that, I don't know what you need.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by happy_girl: well, no one knows what it is like to be in this situation until they are in it. and i wish it on no one. though it might shut some people up if they actually had to be in our shoes... would stop that judgemental, poor OW stuff pretty quick...happy_girl Happygirl, AMEN to that. Poor OW my a**. She brought it on herself. Why should I feel sorry for a woman so immoral she would go after a man she knew was married, and so mentally deficient she would get pregnant to try and keep him. She knew what she was doing, let her live with it. And she should stay out of my face while she does it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Delphi:I apologize for lambasting you. You've been on this site before saying similar things and the buttons are pushed and you receive negative reactions.I am curious why you lurk here unless it is to put the cat among the pigeons. You do not have a wayward spouse that has fathered a child while married to you, do you? If not, why do you come here and remind us what sh**s our husbands were? We KNOW what our spouses are and what they have done. We LIVE with the pain every day; ours and theirs. We do not need anyone telling us that our spouse are responsible, too. We KNOW that...but, that is not the issue. The spouses are remorseful and suffering, too. They are trying to restore, repair and recover themselves, often battling their own demons and trying to do what is right after doing such horrible wrongs.I haven't forgotten nor will I ever forget what my spouse did and his roll in this entire mess, so you needn't concern yourself with reminding me/us. Just know that if you come here defending OW's or with concern for OC's or to tell us what sh**s our spouses are, buttons will be pushed, the reaction ain't pretty.I shouldn't have been such a sh** myself to you earlier and I am really sorry. This week we filed for divorce and for bankruptcy. Just to protect me. OW tried to have me picked up on her phony Order for Protection against me because I was instructed by my attoeny to send a copy of our appeal to her via certified. It was a retalitory attack. The detective called our son who knows NOTHING about this. He called long distance from NY thinking that Jr was Sr...as they have the same first name. Now there are suspicions.Oh yeah, one more thing...the courts refused to even consider our personal income tax returns and hit spouse (and me-I'm effected by this judgement hence the faux divorce and bankruptcy) with an order for a monthly amount just $300 dollars less than what spouse makes in a month. Can you live on $300 per month?We have recieved letter stating that spouse's wages will be garnished, spouse will loose driver's license and spouse will soon go to jail. They fail to relaize that there is no money. Spouse spent 1999 and the better part of 2000 so far in treatment centers, crisis units, detox centers and was drunk and suicidal.As far as the OW/OC is concerned, to quote Shakespeare, "I careth not."Catnip =^^=

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by catnip: Delphi:I am curious why you lurk here unless it is to put the cat among the pigeons. You do not have a wayward spouse that has fathered a child while married to you, do you? If not, why do you come here and remind us what sh**s our husbands were? Catnip =^^= <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Catnip, Who is this Delphi? This whole thing had nothing to do with adoption, why do they bring that up here? (Delphi) I know what my husband did, and I have confronted him on it, my desire was only to treat the OW the same as I have him. I have never said anything about forcing to OW to put OC up for adoption. I may have at one time expressed the wish that she abort, but only because that's what H wanted. I have resigned myself to the fact that this child will be born. I don't blame the child for anything, it didn't ask to be born. My H and the OW on the other hand, are totally responsible for this mess, never said they weren't. I feel the OW to be slightly more at fault because she did concieve deliberately the child of a married man, in the efforts to keep him with her. Didn't work, and that is my greatest satisfaction at this point. I can't have my husband's child, I would also not be adverse to actually raising OC if OW is found to be unfit. How this all turned into a rage about adoption is beyond me. I would and will do, what I have to do, to make this marriage work, because I love the man who's last name I share. He's not perfect, nor am I, and I am not going to dwell on the imperfections, or I'd go nuts. I don't have to be reminded either. Sorry Catnip, I started out writing to you, but it looks like I ended up back at issue with Delphi. I agree with you, we don't need to be reminded. Do you know who this person is? Thanks. KTgirl

ktgirl:Delphi has been around a while. I've read some of her other posts on General Questions and here. She's very intelligent and insightful. She obviously has some issues with us and our attitude for whatever reason, as we have our issues...whatever our reasons.Ktgirl, anyone can post anywhere and give their opinions. I don't have a problem with that at all as long as no one cares if I come out with sixguns blazing. It can duel at OK Corral for all I care. She seems to be able to take it as well as dish it out and I respect that. We all have our own opinions and Delphi and others are welcome to post opposing views. The discussions can get heated, of course, because this is an extrememly sensitive subject. As long as we can all take it and respect each other, it bothers me not. I like the debate, actually. I don't have to agree and neither does anyone else. It is simply opinions. No one is changing my mind on this subject, but I will listen to others' points of view even if I disagree. Possible motives intrigue me, though.Catnip =^^=[This message has been edited by catnip (edited August 02, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by catnip: ktgirl: No one is changing my mind on this subject, but I will listen to others' points of view even if I disagree. Possible motives intrigue me, though.Catnip =^^=[This message has been edited by catnip (edited August 02, 2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Catnip, I understand, and I also enjoy a lively debate. As you've seen, I'm not shy about firing a shot or two myself. Delphi does seem very impassioned, and also very familiar with her subject matter. I would never want to force someone to give away a child to hide the mess my husband made. That's not my choice, and though I will admit to a certain amount of selfishness on my part, I'm not that selfish. I've always tried from the outset to encourage H to have a close relationship with OC, even though that baby will be a constant reminder of the fact that another woman carried my husband's child instead of me. She felt the stirrings of life inside her that I never can. The waiting and wondering, boy or girl, the first ultrasound, all of that will belong to someone else. After the labor, she will stare into a little face and marvel at how much he looks like H. This is really agonizing for me. I have had children by two different men in the past, both who abused me and mistreated me to the point that I now still suffer depression and PTSD. Now, I have met the one man, who truly deserves that special gift, a child of his own to pass on his legacy, and I can't give it to him, but another woman may be. Nothing will ever take away that nagging thought in my mind. This is why I could never dare to impose my will on her. I love him, and I can't do for him something so important to me. He has always said that he never wanted children, and if he had, he wouldn't have fallen in love with me, because he knew up front I couldn't have them. At that time, I could have had my tubal reversed, but he said he didn't want to put me through so much pain. Now I've had further surgery due to fibroids, and am definitely sterile, no turning back. Still he is by my side. If Delphi is out there, I hope she reads this. I will swallow my sadness that this upcoming birth may bring, and put it away, so that should the child be his, and should he decide to have it in his life, that child will never feel unwelcome in our home. I will not change in my feelings toward the OW though. What she did was wrong, she knew it was wrong, and did not care. Why should I care for her feelings.

catnip wrote:>>A priest once told me when I asked him what my/his/our responisiblity was to the OC. He said, "Your first and primary responsibility is to each other and to your marriage. It is the base, the foundation, from which anything and everyone else comes after. Your husband owes this OC nothing, except financial support." (end quote)No offense, but as a protestant, I'd beg to differ. While you (as the wife) are completely innocent, so too are any of the man's children, whether they be by the wife or the OW. What's more, the children are the only ones that are also truly, completely helpless ... whether the wife stays or leaves, and regardless of what the OW does, any minor children are at the whim of the adults. Any children he has have 50% of his genes, like it or not. He produced them, regardless of who their mother is, and IMHO they all have just as much "intrinsic right" to him as a "father". Does such an "intrinsic right" exist? Personally, I think it does. But regardless, if any children produced by him do have such a right, they all do.I'm also not surprised one bit at the attitude the Catholic church would take. A year or two ago there was an article on one of the newsmagazines (20/20 I *think*), which sparked a bunch of stories in our local paper when some people related to the story were discovered to be living in our nearby city. Back in Ireland, in the 40's (or was it 50's? 30's? ... some years ago anyway), the Catholic church was well in control of government policy. If a woman had a child out of wedlock (regardless of whether or not adultery was involved), the child wasn't entitled to an education, nor could he/she hold a civil/government job. Period. That's it, punish the child who had no say-so in his birth. Mind you, my husband is Catholic, but I take their "policies" with a grain of salt, as does my husband, since I told him of the earlier situation in Ireland. But then, I see telling a child they can't have an education because they were illegitimate to be on the same level as telling them they have no right to a father just because *he* decided to have relations with someone who he just happened to not be married to.Well, maybe I don't belong here. I am "related," however ......--Pearl ... a grown-up, religious, never-been-promiscuous, well-educated (thank got this wasn't Catholic Ireland of years ago), "other child" (gasp) who was raised with the love and support of both her parents. By the way, one more thought from this side of the fence (not meant to cause a problem, just meant as a data point) ... I've always been unsure what my half brothers and sisters know about me. It's even possible that they know nothing, given that a. they were adults when I was born, b. my father was already separated from his wife at that point, and c. it's too late to ask Dad now, as he has passed on. Over the last couple years, after having completed my education, marrying, and settling down, I've been feeling the urge to meet my brothers and sisters, and with the help of my husband, I may do so within the next few years. My point is that I have no idea if they've even been "prepared" for my "existence." Do they know anything about me? Will it surprise or bother them to find out as much older adults? I have no idea. Every "other child" out there eventually grows up, and does what he/she feels they must do.Don't worry, I'll be leaving now. I'm guessing I've stumbled into where I shouldn't be. [This message has been edited by ontheotherhand (edited August 02, 2000).]

dear ontheotherhand: I hope you come back and read this. This letter is going to be written by me: Who is me? Me is a Woman who has done nothing wrong in her life, well educated, even has two masters degrees. I have never been promiscuos and I had a wonderful relationship with my H, until he decided to start drinking and became an alcoholic. EXCUSE ME but that was not my fault. My H has hurt me like I never thought somebody can hurt somebody, I rather be tortured and scared for the rest of my life than having to go trough what I go through everyday. That OW took advantage of an alcoholic, she didn't even know him, she was only with him for a couple months if so, she use to go out drinking with him while I was 8 months pregnant. She got pregnant herself and mind me not she could have been careful if she wanted. She had that OC in spite because my H went to AA, recovered and totally DUMPED HER if you can say that. Yes we are lucky BUT, the OC has NO RIGHTS, I do not care, my D does not know and when she is old enough I may tell her but believe she will feel the same way I do. Leave your half brothers and sisters alone! If they knew about you, and they have not tried to contact you there is a reason. People like you make me mad! If that OC ever knocks at my house when sjhe is older believe me I will slam the door in her face, yes she has 50% of my Husband genes but she has 50% of the OW/whore genes and she WILL NEVER BE WELCOMED TO MY HOUSE. I will make sure of that, you cansay what you want that is how I feel. If that OW knew that she wasnot going to get a penny from my H she would have never had the CHILD. Now you talk about morals? What kind of morals are they to get yourself involved with a married man who had a 8 month pregnant wife that you had met? I am so sorry but people who do that make me sick, so I am sorry you are the OC , and I am glad you are happy with your life, but don;t go and ruin other peoples life because of your selfish thoughts. Sorry if I rambled, but I really pray and hope that my family is left alone on this. ENOUGH SUFERING! I mean it , I wish for all those OW to leave us alone so we can recover. fambis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I wish for all those OW to leave us alone so we can recover.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And when you do recover, Frambis, you may change your attitude about the OC.I follow these threads with some interest, but it's sad to see such vitrol spewed on both sides. I believe as a general rule, the family (or marriage) should come first (as catnip has suggested---and other's as well). This doesn't relieve the father of responsibility for financial responsibility (and the Catholic Church, per se, does NOT support the injustice done in Ireland---but that's another story)---but the conception of a child under these conditions is less that ideal, and it's difficult to engineer a generic "win-win-win" situation for everyone involved. There are compromises that are made.I also find it interesting that although I'm raising an OC, I never really think of my wife as an "OW". I guess she was, but the OM's wife was also having an affair (everyone but me). When the time is appropriate, my "non-biological" son will learn about his origins. I haven't a clue to when the appropriate time will come---I pray that God will lead me in that effort. There is no doubt that this child deserves love---all children do. But there's no reason to assume that just because an OC doesn't have bio-dad in their life that they're missing love.

I totally agree with you your case is a different and very special case, and in fact you are one of a kind person in taking such responsability. But if you read our postings you will realize that these OW are stalking our families and husbands. They are in a war on their own. They have chosen to fight for something that is not theirs and they have chosen us the "inocent party " as the enemy. They have disrupted our lives, our childrens lives and they have put some of us in a finacial caos that we did not deserve nor ask. We are all here hard working women and we are trying as much as you to keep our family together. But just because to people were irresponsible at one time (NOT ME!) that does not mean that me and my family have to now suffer financially, psychologically and emotionally. And by no means I should feel bad or sad about the OC, I did not have a choice, nor was asked about that decision, so why should I accept it? Why should I share my household finance with that OC? And why should I accept that OC? The OW made a choice yes it is called choice and she choose to bring a OC in this world, not me! Why do I have to support him or her and deal with him or her? NO WAY! NOT ME! I have no more anger that you probably have, but I did learn something about this whole experience, and that is to stand up to myself,my beliefs and my family. And you can write to me all these awfull things about anger,but the truth is that you have accepted your lifestyle , but I will choose mine!

Ontheotherhand, I, too, am Protestant, and I firmly believe in the part of our vows that "what God has joined together, let no man rip asunder". If the continuing presence of an OC in a marriage would rip it apart (in addition to the damage done by the affair in the first place) then that child should not receive any more than legal support. I thank God daily that there was no OC from my H's affair(s). It's a miracle, considering that he used no protection and is so darned fertile. Given that we had buried two stillborn daughters (the last less than 2 years before the interlude with the STD Tramp) and miscarried 6 other babies, if another woman had given birth to my H's child--a child I had wanted so very much, it would have been the last straw. I really don't think I could have dealt with the situation. And, you know something? My H didn't give 2 hoots about the STD Tramp; she was just a whore who screwed anybody and everybody she could pick up in beer joints. He would have supported the child, if one had been produced, but would probably have wanted custody if he had anything at all to do with the child. Could I have handled something like that? I don't know. I'd like to believe that I could be a big enough woman to raise my H's child by another woman, but I don't know if I could live with the pain.Leave your half-siblings alone. They would probably react as my H's cousin did when her father's OC showed up at the funeral home. Why set yourself up for that pain?

Frambis:I seem to remember an old story about a very good man who ended up nailed to a cross. He did nothing to deserve the torture, ridicule, and disrespect---but yet he was able to offer His forgiveness to them.I have no idea if you profess to be Christian, but if you do, then your words and deeds are inconsistant with the faith.I did stand up for my beliefs, my lifestyle, and my family. It's surprising how hard the Christian faith can be when you really try to practice it---but it can be very rewarding too. So, what lifestyle will you choose?

ontheotherhand: Your opinions are welcome and so are you. Regardless whether or not we agree (that is not important) your point of view is food for thought. Just know that when you post your opinions the people here are raw with an indescribable pain and will probably meet your opinions with their own harsh realities. Depending on where each of us are in our recovery, dictates the degree of forgiveness and acceptance. I felt as Fambis does a year ago. I have progressed only very slightly since then. perhaps in five years I may feel differently. Your comments may be a catalyst for a tsunami of negative reaction, just so you know. I hope you understand.K: Fambis is very likely a Christian in pain, as many of us are here on this site. When the wounds heal in time, perhaps Christ's example will lead us to more charitable thoughts and actions. Most of us here have only been dealing with this within the past year or two and something to this magnitude has such long lasting repercussions...like twenty plus years. I think those of us who have been lucky enough to have Christ's spirit within us (I admit I am excluded in this right now) in dealing with this horrendous situation can be understanding towards others less 'evolved' as Christ would be for this awful circumstance and the pain we endure.To all: This is a very inflamatory subject. There are several points of view. I know we tend to be inclusive in our pain by not welcoming those who are not on the receiving end of this particular pain. However, in order to learn and to understand, let's listen to all who come here and debate with them and not get too nuts over hearing things that go against our pain...er, I mean grain. I am going to try to lighten up and listen, though I know me and will probably get militant as usual when the right buttons are pushed.You are sll such wonderful people in pain with so much love in your hearts. The horrible situation brings out the worst and the best in us. I have said things here that I never ever could have or would have said in any other situation. Sometimes I am appalled by my lack of charity. However, it is how I feel at the time. I want to lash out and steamroll any opposition. It is human nature. But I don't want to scare away those who do not have OC's in their lives because I might learn something from their pigheaded opinion (just kidding-a little levity). There are no rules for this site. Anyone can post and say what is on their mind and in their heart. They just better come well-suited in armor because we are raw! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

No name calling, play fair and take a deep breath.Catnip =^^=

I also know that it is very funny that people talk in behalf of God, and judge on his behalf. I am not judging you, why are you judging me? You are in a total different situation than we are. Just because you accepted this OC in your life does not mean that everybody else should , that does not make you more of a Christian than anybody else. fambis

I also agree with catnip, we are here to talk, debate and express our opinions not to accuse anybody of anything.But like catnip said, if you push the right buttons you may get a different response. I admire the ones who have taken the OC in their lives, but that does not make the other ones who did not less. That was my point.I believe the same thing as catnip, maybe in a couple of years I will feel differently, but at this time this is how I feel. I like this site because I can express myself and I feel like we all understand each other.If somebody else has an opinion that is fine, but if somebody is writing in this site just to hurt us, well that is not right.fambis

I am a Christian but I was an OW. Maybe some of your H's are christians but they still committed adultery. I have told my H about my daughter that I gave up for adoption. I consider her biological father to a very bad person, a person who took advantage of a young girl, me at 15. He destroyed my highschool years and walked away without a care about it. My first baby wasn't really my first baby. I lost my first baby. And I know my daughter has 1/2 of that mans genes. But she also has 1/2 mine. And I not only won't turn her away from my door I pray every day that she will come so I can open it for her. And my H totally supports me in this and he prays with me for this to happen some day. The sins of the fathers (your husbands and the OWs because the did both sin) shouldn't be visited on the children. Also I know that I was an OW but I know I am not a bad and evil person. I know I strayed and sinned but I also know that I am a good person who has asked for and been given Gods forgivness. Why is it that every single OW with an OC on this board seems to be an evil monster? Isn't it possible that they are not as evil as all that but you hate them just because your husband chose to have sex with them and conceived a child with them? I'm just saying that even though I was an OW I'm not evil. Maybe they all aren't totally evil either.Del

Wow Delphi I have always wondered why you have consistently defended the OW on this board and now I know why. Your smugness and cavalier attitude toward the betrayed is beyond belief. And the fact that you call yourself a Christian wow that is so unbelievable. You really have no reason to come this forum since you have NEVER been in the situation so I can only deduce that you come here to cause these woman additional pain. You don't have any clue about what each of these woman have gone thru but maybe someday you will be betrayed like these woman.. You know the old saying , What goes around comes around.[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited August 03, 2000).]

Catnip,I just read your reply. Yes of course I have issues and have had a lot of bad things happen to me in my life. Some were because of my own mistakes but others, like my pregnancy when I was 15, were because of others doing bad things to me. So I guess because of all these things I relate to more than one issue on this board. I don't think that by saying that a man would not feel as much anguish as a woman in these cases when a baby is given for adoption is blasting the wives. The wives are the victims 100%. But in all the pain you all are going through I think it is really easy to just see things in real black/white terms and God knows I've learned that is never the case. I do mostly lurk as you point out and really hardly ever post, only when something really gets me thinking. You don't have to apologize anyway. Boards are for saying what you want to say and I wasn't upset believe me. But there's all kinds of pain out there, you know? When we are in really bad pain we always feel that our pain is the worst pain anyone could ever have. I've been there a few times! But I've figured out in the long run that pain is just pain when it's bad enough. So at least you can believe that I know what it's like to be in pain because I have been. Anyway I'm really sorry about your financial problems. You know I have said to you before that I don't think the system is fair either. I think it takes too much. I don't think the OC can be financially denied 100% but I think the way it is now is very unfair. I am with you on that.Del

K,People who sin can be forgiven. Do you think your H can be forgiven? Also I don't think that this happened to you because you did something bad. And I don't think that because I made a mistake for which I truly repented that now something bad is going to happen to me anyway. Anyway there are alot of sides to this issue. Maybe it is most helpful at this point for you to see only one. The combination of things I've had in my life have caused me a lot of pain and believe me I didn't deserve all of them. And I do have some insight into this issue for alot of reasons I haven't gone into and some that I have. I don't have all the answers at all. I don't mean to come across as smug. Just because someone says something that is not the way you want to think does not make them smug. I have alot of faults for sure! but I don't think being smug is one of them. Making mistakes can make you smug or it can make you humble. With the help of God and some good counseling I hope mine have made me humble.Del

K,Opps, sorry forgot to say that I'm not defending the OW! The OW did something very wrong! It's just that your H's did something very wrong too! They both did. You didn't do anything to have this happen to you. K, life just isn't fair sometimes. Sometimes we just can't understand why something bad happens to us when we do everything right. Well, that's just how it is. It's not always fair. And it hasn't been fair to you at all right now. But anyway, I'm not defending either one. I'm just talking about issues other than just the black/white the OW is a whore, my husband is sorry and really a good person and now lets all move on and try our best to pretend the OC doesn't exist. That won't solve anything believe me! You did nothing to deserve what has happened to you but now it's in your lap. And the decisions you make now will effect you for the rest of your and your childrens lifes. And you are being asked to make them at a time when you are so hurt and so angry and in such anguish. So it really is important for you that sometimes you hear from someone who maybe sees things differently because of their experiences. Well at least I think so. I know I can't really say what would be important for you to know. Just know that your decisions now will sometimes be so longlasting and sometimes you can't undo them when you wish you could. But I am not defending the OW. And I do know there are OW out there who are just a baby farm for the money. And maybe the one in your life is like this. But I also know for a fact that sometimes men say things to OW that they never admit to their wives that they said because they are to ashamed and they love their wives and they don't want to hurt them. And knowing this doesn't make your husband a bad person or someone that you should leave! But it might make you understand just a little bit why some needy OW might believe any little thing because there are some screwed up people out there who have very low self esteem. These are just some ideas. They are things to think about only not a defense of the OW. That is not what I'm doing. Sorry for the long ramble I usually don't do this.Del

Why do you presume I am a betrayed? I am not. Betrayers seem to run in my family though and all of them have gotten their comeuppance in one way or another. I don't believe in god so all that forgiveness stuff really has no meaning for me. Besides your smugness( or humbleness as you call it) it's the judgemental nature of your posts. Imagine you passing judgement on others. This really is not the forum for this discussion however so no reason to respond.

K,Since this is a forum I thought about OC's and confronting OW and why they do it and all that whole mess, I guess it does bother me that you think I'm judgemental because I'm really just trying to show other sides to the problems. These problems will effect people for the rest of their lives so the choices they make now are really important. I'm sorry that you think that. I don't mean to be at all. I will go back and read my posts and try to change that. Also I'm sorry that I assumed you were betrayed or that your H had an OC. I think that people get it back when they don't change. If they keep on keeping on, they keep getting what they keep getting. That's what my grandma used to say. But if people change like it sounds like alot of the H's here change, then their own actions won't keep hurting them. Well that's just my thought and I don't mean to say it's the way it is! Very sorry I offended you. I don't even usually talk to much about my christain faith.Del

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Delphi: K,Since this is a forum I thought about OC's and confronting OW and why they do it and all that whole mess, I guess it does bother me that you think I'm judgemental because I'm really just trying to show other sides to the problems. Del<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Delphi, I simply asked a question about having the right to confront the OW. I am still working through my anger towards my husband. He hears all about the feelings he's hurt, the security I don't feel anymore, that trust that is not there totally anymore like it used to be. He hears about the anger that for the next 18 years, we are going to have to pay for his mistake. Where is OW in all this? Nowhere. Not one word does she hear, and this is the woman that kept after him and kept after him, over a year, and then jumped in in a minute when we began having troubles. I don't feel, and will never feel, that it was only his fault, or like he is more at fault than she because of our particular situation. She practically stalked him, and repeatedly threw herself at him until he gave in. She knew exactly what she was doing. It's really easy not to face up to the fact that what you did was wrong, if you never have to face the person you've wronged and hear their side of it. If she'd have killed him, I could have read a "victim impact statement" in open court. But because he is still alive, I am supposed to keep silent, and not say a thing to her? She knew he was married, she pursued him anyway. That he gave in is not the point. The point is that if she hadn't made herself available, this never would have happened. He was not the kind to go looking elsewhere, and would always let me know when something was bothering him, UNTIL HER. She never gave him the chance. 8 years of my life became a lie in one night, because she didn't care about anything but wanting my husband. She had this whole thing planned from start to finish, and I am supposed to keep silent. BTW, I will say it once more, I have no problems with OC. OC didn't do a thing to me. OC's mother, on the other hand, did. That is where my problem is. I am willing to accept this child into our lives for reasons I've stated in past posts, but OW I will never accept, and the two of them will never be alone together again. I want her to know, that no matter what she tries, she will never be able to hold him, because I am the one he wants, for the rest of his life, not her. She will never be me. That's what she wanted most of all. To be his wife. She thought the child would do it. Then all she'd have to do was sit on her [censored] and not ever work again. I believe if more of these wenches did get confronted, maybe they would think twice before they tried that crap again. I've had my say. You think what you want.

K, I think that the you being willing to accept OC into your life is so incredible and generous and you are a very special person for being able to do it! Now those are just my thoughts and I realize everyone else might not be at a place to do that. But I think you are special for doing it. I also agree with you that there is no place in your life for the OW and there doesn't have to be. You can define your life and marriage your way and the OC is not a threat to you. In fact I think, and I have had experience that the OC and your husbands wonder and pride at your willingness to accept will make him love you more. You see the easy thing is to run away. If you help him to that you are helping him give in to natural urges but not always good urges. Not to make a christian referal but it is easy to wash your hands of things. K, please don't think I am attacking or being judgemental but it does take two and even if your H was pursued he still said yes and did the act. That does not mean he can't be forgiven by you for that. But I know I never really could forgive myself let alone anyone else until I really accepted what I did and what they did. But let me tell you something. Try though I might I have not forgiven the man who was the father of my baby I gave away. So I also understand not forgiving because I would like to, really I would! But I can't. Maybe someday. K, you don't ever have to like or even know the OW. But there are reasons for what she did. And they have to do with her and not your H. And the truth is that she is probably a very unhappy and lonely person who doesn't like herself at all and desperatly wants to be loved by somone. And sometimes people can be so needy that the can be come preditors looking for people that need like them and maybe your H was at a needing time and he ran into this other needy person. Now K this does not make her evil. Maybe she is evil but she could also be a lot of other things. But that doesn't mean you have to know her or include her in your life. Just don't hate her until you know for sure everything. Maybe you can't forgive her but try not to hate her. I know everyone says this but hating actually hurts us more anyway. You sound like you and your H will be OK. Maybe you will come to love the OC not just for who they are but as a symbol of how strong your and your H's love is. That you can survive and forgive anything in your love. Del

Thanks Del, I have broached to subject of the OC, and having the child in our lives (where I feel it should be) but he is so angry at being trapped right now. I'm afraid it would be more detrimental for the child to know that he feels so strongly against it's mother. I've just decided to let him come around to the idea on his own, without pressure from me, even though I know how precious time is with regard to kids, and how fast it goes. He's never had a child, so he doesn't know what I know, as a parent. I just think time may bring him around. I hope, for both him and the child it will. Unless of course DNA shows he's not the father. He's really angry toward her, and really frustrated by the whole situation. Of course, you and I know that the frustration is compounded by the fact that he only has himself to blame. She did pursue, but he didn't have to give in. She took advantage of our marital troubles to worm her way in. We will survive. I am starting to see more and more of the man that I first fell in love with. He's communicating with me in a way we hadn't for a long long time. He's writing me love letters! This man never writes letters. I'd find "I love you" notes on the fridge from time to time, but a real letter? This whole thing has shown us what we had, what we could have lost. We don't take each other for granted anymore. Not a day goes by that we don't let each other know how we feel. I'm starting the think that I have my best friend back, and that the trust and security will be back also.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Delphi: I do mostly lurk as you point out and really hardly ever post, only when something really gets me thinking.Del<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>your profile shows you post a bit more than "hardly ever", about 124 since october of 99. don't know if it is true, but that is much more than lurking, unless of course you only mean posting on our board, and i don't see you much here, thank goodness.

yes, i am a christian, but i am not perfect and i pray to become a better person, but that doesn't mean i am gonna let the world walk over me and do nothing about it. i feel safe if my heart and soul that god and jesus understand me, and know i am doing all i can. as for the OW, if i would see them be a bit sorry themselves, i would feel different. but at least in my case, she has no worries about what she has done to my family. she doesn't care, has never expressed remorse. so, i don't feel sorry about my feelings toward her. my H on the other hand has showed me he is sorry for what he has done and i love him. i of course have forgiven both of them, but she is not on my list of favorite people. i can't see her as human being when she acts like a cold hearted monster. i would be interested in how many of the OW's have apologized to the families of the men they were adulterous with, and i bet you would see it affects our opinions on the OW.anyone??happy_girl

Good question: have ANY XOW expressed regret for the pain they've helped cause, apologized and behaved in a reasonable fashion (healthy boundaries, adult behavior) post-affair?? Ours hasn't. If she would, some things could be different.My guess is women who engage in affairs in the first place are by definition screwed up in various major ways which renders them difficult to deal with re: OC, (especially ones who got pregnant deliberately)!Re adoption, adult women cannot be forced to do this and I'm not suggesting they should be. I'm sorry for the pain birthmothers feel, but we can all think of situations where it is in the CHILD'S best interest (and thank you Catnip for your bravery and excellent example!), while there are many wonderful people in at LEAST as much pain because they have no children or fewer than they'd like. (having lost 1 child at birth and 3 miscarriages, myself, the OC has been a HORRIBLE blow). There are new avenues in open adoption that can ease the birthparents mind (yearly updates, for example), and I'm sorry you Delphi weren't given that option. One more thing. Not all married man/biodads give up the OC without pain. I know my H and I think of the OC every day. Sometimes, like adoption, it is the lesser of many evils.

An XOW apologizing! Ha - that would be remarkable. Mine couldn't even say the words I'm sorry - or anything remotely like that if it killed her. My H keeps telling me "she hates you and you hate her". First of all - hate is a strong word - but perhaps that is probably the way I still feel about her - since she obviously won't get a life and keeps waiting around like a little puppy dog waiting on my H to leave me - but how do these stupid XOW or OW hate us? What in the world have we done to them? In my case the OW was a daycare worker taking care of my child - I trusted her with my post precious thing to me in the world and she used her love for my D to get to my H! Talk about sick!!!!! And then she hates me!$(*&#@$(&*Y$)*@*@(*@(*(& The nerve of some people - Where do they get this sanctimonious crap that they have a reason to hate us - because we were married to someone that they "decided" they wanted? Well TOO bad! Get yourself someone who is available and things like that won't happen to you. Geez - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. I understand people make mistakes - but when you make a mistake, you learn from it and pick yourself up and go on - these witches that simply lurk and lurk and just wait on a moment for a man to be weak or act like the damsel in distress and act so helpless and use their wiles to get a man away from his wife is just simply disgusting - I know it takes 2 to tango - but if we as women would stick together and have loyalty to fellow women - then these men would have no one to sleep with - now would they? Or (as I've heard some OW put it) "well, he was gonna sleep around anyway, it might as well be with me as someone else!" Hogwash - that's the kind of mindset that condones all this pain and suffering that we all are going through.I'm so angry to think that these women actually hold their head up in public and act as if they deserve some respect. A respectful person (after destroying someone's family and marriage and the life of another child) would apologize to the wife sincerely, any children involved and make sure that her respect be in the form of no contact, no bleeding someone dry for money or any type of stalking, whining when they need moral support or whatever! Please (especially when the OW KNEW the men were married) what did you expect? That you were SO special that you could make him leave his wife? What fantasy land do you live in? As far as I'm concerned - these OW deserve only what the H and his Family are willing to give to them - and nothing else. I find it a travesty that Judges can sit up on their thrones and dictate what amount of $$$ to give to these women that obviously either only wanted the money to start with or simply want to make the H pay for not leaving his wife. Have a little self-respect and realize "you were used!" and go on and find someone else you can build a life with - because it is not fair to keep hurting people over and over. Geez - this whole thing just cuts me to the bone!------------------

I found this site nearly 2 years ago and it has (believe it or not) helped me tremendously! I understand now why MM has no contact with our son.I am the OW who had OC. No, I did not "pursue" him...we were coworkers, a friendship developed, he began telling me about his problems, one thing lead to another. I was selfish and never thought about his wife, how she was innocent, and how much this would hurt her. Nor did I deliberately set out to get pregnant merely so I could have a check every month. I work full time and returned to work 3 weeks after the birth of our son. MM and I both lost our jobs when I announced my pregnancy and I was unemployed for 6 months. Talk about stress during a pregnancy!!! happy_girl: For many, many, many months I cried about the pain I caused his W, him (for having to give up his son), our son (his bio-father has nothing to do with him) and I cried because I felt like a terrible, horrible person who used terrible judgment and who was not even worthy of God's forgiveness. I would NEVER want to hurt anyone. I was in a "fog" and MANY lives were affected because of MM/my decisions. I prayed, I went to church, I asked for God's forgiveness...but I had a problem forgiving myself. I can not tell you how awful I felt. Nearly 3 years later I have a sense of peace..the guilt will always be there but I now have a sense of peace. For many, many months I wanted to call/write/see W so I could tell her how sorry I was...but I didn't think she would believe me or know if she would even read it with so many emotions flying (I filed a lawsuit against my former employer in which she was required to testify and the paternity establishment/child support proceedings). Finally, all that stuff has settled and I felt it was appropriate for me to send the letter. I have been able to forgive myself since sending that letter. I knew that God had forgiven me but you also must repent. My final step in repenting was sending his W that letter....I knew in my heart that it was sincere and I am truly sorry (for all of us).We are all human, we all make bad choices, with different ramnifications. Perhaps my experience (the affair) was God's way of drawing me to Him because before the affair, I never really had any spiritual being. we all reap the consequences of our actions. God will not punish us...he wants us to be happy, not full of anger, bitterness, hatred...but we do reap the consequences of our actions.catnip: To give up a child has got to be the hardest thing that anyone could ever do! Months ago, when you first told the board, I cried when I read your post. I thought to myself "Now, that is a woman who *really* loved her child....enough to allow him the opportunity to be raised in a two parent household" I had thoughts go through my mind as to whether or not I should have given our son up for adoption. Was it fair for me to keep him? I can't answer that. I know that had I given him up, I would have wanted to die. I have no opinion on the adoption option.....it's a very personal decision in which many, many factors must be considered.MM paid me a "lump sum" of child support so I do not receive monthly checks from him. When we were having discussions about his child support obligation, he said that it would kill him to write a check every month.....to think about the son that he has no contact with. If I was in it "for the money" I would have taken the monthly check and had it reviewed annually, with every job change. I settled for a much less amount than I would have received over 18 years. Why did I agree to it? Because I felt it was best for all involved....MM (and yes, he does have a heart) would have the constant reminder, I didn't want the constant threat of MM "waltzing" into our son's life at the drop of a hat (either he was going to be a part of our son's life, or he wasn't...don't show up at age 5 and say "Hi, I'm your Daddy". I do not contact them for any reason whatsoever. We both have separate lives.I have since met a wonderful man who is great to me and Son (and he is NOT married..YEAH). We have had many, many talks and he knows that Son basically becomes OURS. This man will love Son as if he were his own. He is absolutely wonderful with Son.I believe we can all find peace in our lives and happiness but the scares of our life experiences remain. I look at our Son every day and I see MM.

Dear Delphi: I think your postings will be nicely accepted in another discussion group where OW talks about their lives, maybe somebody can help you understand why you would do such a thing twice. Yes you were 15 but I have a couple of questions... 1.) Where were your parents when you were 15? Obviously not taking care of you! 2.) At 15 you should be old enough to make your own decisions and to know the repercussion of unprotected sex, plus at that age you are capable of knowing what is right and wrong, infact if this was not your first baby,that makes me ask the question twice: Protected Sex? It is obvious that you wanted to get pregnant with this man's baby, twice?. 3.) I can't believe you say that the man took advantage of you, YOU KNEW HE WAS MARRIED, what did you think...he was going to leave his wife for you?

just me, i applaud you for sending a letter. it is rare though i think that that happens. i would be much more accepting of the situation if i thought for a second that the OW in our situation was sorry. but she isn't. she is all me, me, me. no call, no letter. she wanted a baby, wanted my H and went after it. she got the baby, but she can't have my H. i would probably have a heart attack if she tried to say sorry. it would throw me a loop that is for sure. but, i know it won't happen. i know that the OW suffer and when they are like you, i can understand them. but when they have no remorse and keep adding fuel to the fire, i just have no feelings of sorry for them.glad you found a good man. and good luck with your marriage and your son.happy_girl

Kt, The way I see it you have the chance to lead your H to a better way to be and he will love you so much for it. Listen if you really want to get back at the OW, can you just imagine her having to hand her child over to you, his loving stepmother, and father for visiting? Can you imagine how that would drive her crazy? Why not look at it like that? Also if you establish a relationship with the OC and come to love it you might even go for joint custody and then reduce your payment? See I think there are good possibilities and I think you are looking for them.Jenny, I gave up a baby for adoption too. And yes I did apologize both in person and in writing to the W for my affair.Fambis, The baby I had at fifteen was my first child. To this day my family does not know who the father is because I told them I was raped. This is because the father is a relative that a sexual relationship began with when I was 12. This does not make my parents bad parents. These things happen in good families too you know! It makes this man a bad person, a very bad person. He has since been in a auto accident that left him in a wheelchair. I moved far away from my family and don't go to anything where he will be. Del

Dear Delphi: I am so sorry to hear about the man being a relative... If that is the case you being 12 honey I don't think you were the OW you were a molested child, and you should have told your parents because I am sure you were not the only one who was molested. I hope that if somebody tries to touch my D she can feel comfortable enough to come and talk to me, that type of child abuse should never be tolerated. Molestation and Affairs are ver very different. You could have sent this man to jail and you still can. fambis

Fambis,No Fambis, I wish I could say that I was never an OW but I was later in my life. This was really something I never thought would happen to me. Like alot of these relationships it started as a close work friendship that became more and more dependent and finally we were intimate five times. We were both overcome with guilt and ended it and he confessed to his wife. She already had suspicions but didn't know who. She is the one I apologized to in person and in writing. It is very hard to face that you have hurt someone so much when you have been a person who has been hurt alot. It made me like myself even less in fact I hated myself. I broke off contact and we did not have contact for a year and a half. During that time I was in counseling really for the first time. I learned alot about why I did end up in a affair because I was so needy. By the way I was divorced from an abusive first marriage. After this year and a half the married man contacted me because his divorce was almost final. He and his wife had gone through intense counseling including even going away for a weekend counseling but the problems were to great. He had been separated for six months the second time he contacted me. I won't go into their problems here because they really don't have anything to do with anything here. I had moved and changed jobs. He had tried one time to contact me after six months but I communicated through a friend that I was moving on and wanted no contact with a married man. So to make a long story short we did end up marrying but only after going through couples counseling. This was just a few months ago that we finally married. I really feel that he and I know now who we are and what we need. I think it is easy to say that all OW are just screwed up people and I think that is true. I think cheaters are screwed up people whether they are the OW or the married man or whatever. I guess my point is that there are sometimes reasons why a person is screwed up that aren't just that the person is evil. I don't think I'm evil but yes I was a screwed up person with very low self esteem. Someone said I post alot but those posts are mostly on the general questions board when sometimes people ask for the advice of a OW. I have responded to those. Anyway I think regarding OC you would really do alot more to get back at the OW if you took the child away from her by visiting with the child and maybe even getting custody. It's just something to think about. Think how she's going to feel when you are the one to pick up the OC and she never even gets to lay eyes on your H! Having been such a screwed up person myself I read about these OC's being raised by screwed up people and I think, OK the cycle will just continue. This OC will grow up and hurt someone else because they are so damaged themselves. I guess this is the part that I relate so strongly to here. But as so many others here point out I'm not dealing with this problem so I can't say that this is something for someone to do, I can only say that it is my idea that it might work.The relative who I had the relationship with is in a wheelchair and that whole thing is better off left alone. It is behind me. Del

Dear Delphi: Well I must say that it takes a lot of courage to tell us about this, but believe it or not I understand what you are saying. In fact I did think about the whole custody but that would be just lowering myself to the same level. I would not be taking care of a OC just to piss or hurt somebody. The truth is Delphi that it deos not matter how much somebody hurts me, I am not in a war, in my opinion the OW is in her own battle with herself. See we the W, all we want is to be left alone, very simple. We cannot try to take back the affair, but it does take alot of you and in order to try to save your marriage, your self-esteem, your family, your life,an so on. I just do not understand why these OW try to continue to punish and to try to "get back", get back at what? we are an innocent party. Why? These OW need to MOVE ON, leave us alone, leave our H and family alone. And if in fact (at least in my case) she chose to have a Child without informing "us" about it then it should be 100% of her responsability. See she CHOSE not to have safe sex, SHE CHOSE not to be careful, SHE CHOSE to keep the baby, and SHE CHOSE not tell us when we confronted her. SHE SAID NO I AM NOT PREGNANT. 12 Months later we received the court papers. I was told by a friend that she had it all planned, that she was going to "teach us a lesson", that he could not just leave her, and that this way she was going to break our marriage, maybe not then but when he sued him. That is evil, she brought a Child to this world for the wrong reasons. Do you want to know what the sad part is Delphi, I am her worst enemy, yet I have never met her in person. She new that I was 8 months pregnant when she met my H, and played the "drinking buddy", then she got herself pregnant in less than 1 month, and then she expected my H to leave 6 years of a "true" friendship for her : an alcoholic. She hated the fact that my H went to AA, Counseling, quit his job, moved for me out of state, and did EVERYTHING to save his marriage. He knows he made the biggest mistake of his life, but he was never dishonest with her, never promised her anything, in fact he tried to break it off and that is when she started harrasing him, following him, made sure I found out ( although I was in the Hospital with a mastitis infection- with a 2 week newborn), this is the type of OW we talk about. Believe me they are mean and evil. All they want is what they can have, now I bet you that she is doing it again to somebody else, I have no doubt in my mind, and in the mean time she gets a pretty good check every month, I just hope she uses it for the child which I doubt!

Well Fambis I have gotten quite into this thread and if you ever look at some of my other threads this is something I never do! In your case the OW has not even given you the choice of involvement but instead has just tried to get money from you. I guess my point in all this is for those who can be involved with the OC to think of what they are doing for the future, and I know this would be so hard in your case. You see I understand how a hurt person goes on to hurt others even if they are not a bad person. And to leave the OC in the hands of a messed up person, as in the OW pretty much means that the OC has a good chance of growing up to be a hurt person. And I don't think the OC is a threat to your marriage, maybe the OW but not the OC. But again I have not been there so I can't say. But if you take what I think is the road of loving and reaching out to the OC then you can lead your husband. Think 10 years down the road when maybe he has a loving relationship with this child which at first maybe he resisted out of shame and out of not wanting to hurt you, think of the love and gratitude he will feel for you. And you will have maybe kept the OC from growing up to be a person who hurts others like I was. That is my point in all this. I don't stick up for the OW at all but for some reason, well the reason is that I understand what it's like to be very hurt as a child, my heart does go out to the OC and I can see that the women here have so much to offer them.I want to tell you all something good that has come out of this thread for me. It has really helped me in my grief over my daugther who I gave up over 25 years ago. I see that I was so damaged that I would have damaged her. But I'm not damaged now and oh how I wish she would find me! Well, anyway if you do have the chance to be in the OC's life, don't see the OC as a threat or half the OW. See it if you can, as a person who you can maybe make a difference for and who then might not hurt someone else in the future. That's my message.Del

Delphi, I'm glad that you are feeling a lot better since getting into this thread. I also, am feeling better. I still will hope that H will come around, because it may be his only biological child. He should try to be there, and I will be supportive of him if he decides that he wants to. My attitude toward the child comes from the fact that it is the only innocent in this situation, and should be treated as such. Yes, part of it is a person I do not care for and never will, but part of it may be the man I love dearly. H and OW were the wrongdoers here. You can't punish an innocent for someone else's mistake. I don't care if my attitude makes the OW uncomfortable, I can tell you now with complete honesty, that I don't give any more thought to her feelings than she did to mine. I still know the whole story, and I know the extent of what she did, and how she did it almost to the last detail. And by loving and accepting the child, I hope she doesn't mistake that for my acceptance of her, because I will never accept her. I will never respect her. I will only tolerate her with regard to the child, if it is the H's. This is an anger I will never get away from, simply because of the fact that I have no contact with OW, and am not the least interested in having any. Her presence will be enough to ignite the pain and anger all over again, towards her. If I were strong enough to have contact, and try to talk things through as I am doing with H, it might have been different. I have too much of a temper for that. H and I are working through my anger towards him. I have come so far lately, since we started communicating again, not just talking. We both know what we want, and what we don't. We want our marriage. What we don't want is further outside interference. Hopefully, I will lose this anger someday for good. I know it does me no good to hang on to it. Hopefully I'll find a place where I never forget it, but it won't hurt me anymore.

Delphi, Yes, I meant you too did the right thing by chosing adoption and I'm so sorry you were molested/raped. It is tragic and I'm sure painful.It is also tragic that 'our' XOW chose to keep her child when XOW is a damaged person emotionally and in poverty, with 2 other small children. We know my H's child is not in the best situation, but we do not think we could get full custody, and even if we did, the child would be traumatized, as we are complete strangers to this toddler. My H is active duty military and we live on the other side of the planet. What can we do? (XOW thinks my H ought to visit them, alone--how's that for crazy?!)Tragedies come in all shapes and sizes. Very sad. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

justme, I'm honestly very happy for you and your son. It's great you've moved on. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited August 04, 2000).]

I cannot tell you how glad I was to stumble onto this site and to find so many other women going through something that I thought I was facing alone. My H has an OC as the result of an affair. I know the OW -- she was flaunting herself and her desire to trap my H right in front of me. She got pregnant deliberately, although she denies it and then wanted my H to leave me and marry her for the "sake of the child". My heart particularly went out to Jenny and Sweetpea when I read the posts because at the time this happened I was in therapy for infertility. I had lost 4 pregnancies through miscarriage -- the last one had been at 5 months. I admit that I was terrible to live with. I wanted children more than anything and I was in terrible emotional pain. My husband was constantly trying to prove to me that having or not having children would not change the love we shared. But, I was frequently in deep depressions. It was during this period in my life that he came to me and told me that the OW was pregnant.You can imagine how I felt. Here was another woman sharing with my H the one thing that I wanted to give him more than anything in the world. But, amazingly, my husband did not love her. He told me that he felt badly because he had used her when he was feeling low, but that he loved me and he had no intention of leaving me for her.That was 10 years ago and we finally went on to have two children of our own. But, he continues to send support money monthly to the OC and he sees her from time to time. Unfortunately, I have never been able to get past the pain of that time. I saw the child when she was a baby until she about one year old. But, then her mother realized that my husband was not leaving me and she refused to let my H see the child. She allowed him to start seeing her again when the child was about five. To stop from causing me pain, he would just take the child out by himself.Although I know the child is not at fault, whenever I think of her those feelings of hurt and betrayal come to the surface as if it happened yesterday. My H tries to re-assure me even now of his love and his regret that the whole thing happened. He tells me that he chose me even when we were not sure that we would ever have children of our own. But, I still have so much hurt inside me that I can't bring myself to welcome the child into my home or my heart.In all other ways, my life has been blessed and I am a devout person so I am constantly tormented by feelings that I will be punished for my lack of forgiveness. But, after reading your posts, I realized that perhaps I am asking a lot of myself by forcing myself to offer forgiveness. Sometimes, maybe it is better to let things lie and walk away.Thank you to all of you who shared your feelings so openly. I read every one of the five pages on this issue and even with tears streaming down my face I can't tell you how much relief it gave me to see my own feelings being said by so many others.

heavenlybody26,all i can say is welcome. hope you can maybe offer some of us who are new to this advice and maybe some of us can help you too. sorry you had to be in this situation to find us, but glad that since you are, you did.welcome!happy_girlp.s .you might want to post your story as a thread of it's own so we all can read it. take care.

Like Happygirl, I also welcome you here. You are among people who are going through the same thing, and we may not always agree on totally everything, but we all can understand what you are feeling, cause we are or have felt it too. You'll find lots of good advice here. Also some friends. Once again, welcome, and do post your story, and read through ours also. That way you may feel more comfortable, talking about your problems.

Heavenly:Welcome to our infamous little group.How did you ever get through those first few years without the MB Forum? I can't beleive you have lived this for ten years. So far, you are the only member, I think, who has had this issue the longest. you will be very valuable to us here with your experience and wisdom. The OC in most of our lives are under five, I think, and mostly have either just arrived within the last year or so or are about to be born.I, for one, am very glad you are here. there are so many issues being batted around here, so many questions...I have one. Do you spend a lot of time (and money) in court situations and does the OW keep having your husband's income reviewed?Is this the one and only time your spouse strayed? has he stayed faithful to you these past ten years?We are here for you, Heavenly. I don't know how you survived through this without the support we all find here. I am impressed. Catnip =^^=

Heavenlyb, Welcome! It is nice to know my story has touched someone in a helpful way. (I do wonder if my posts do any good at all.) I can relate to how your miscarriages affected your marriage for the worst, and the devastation of learning of the affair child at such a hurtful time. It multiplies the pain, and no wonder you still have a hard time. (Though I am so grateful for the two beautiful healthy children I've been blessed with, having lost 4, I still struggle with envy/resentment. How are you doing with that?) Catnip is right in that I think you have been dealing with this longer than any of us. Please share how you've gotten through this. It is so hard for me to have few people to discuss it with. Do your families know? Have you had support from family or friends? Are you concerned about contact between your H and the XOW when he picks up the child or makes the arrangements? Do your kids resent the time your H is gone with the OC? How often does he see her? Do you think it is helpful to the child, or just so token...?Jenny, who is expecting another "update" from the XOW any day... (This always sets my emotions in an uproar for days... God give me strength and faith; I have not "gotten over" XOW's betrayal.)

Jenny:You're in my thoughts and prayers, old friend. I hope the XOW's update is short and to the point. I, too, have had an update from the XOW in the sense she had me served by the Sheriff yesterday for violating her phony OFP against me. I was in compliance with the Judge's request to answer/appeal his judgment on the child support verdict/decision to write an appeal and send it to XOW via certified mail and a copy to him. She used my mailing her a copy as a violation of her libelous OFP and had the Sheriff come harass me yesterday. (sigh)I am supposed to appear in court in NY on Thursday...uh, I can't make it. I'm having my nails done.Catnip =^^=

Thank you happy, ktgirl, catnip and jenny for the warm welcome. I will gladly post my whole ugly story for all to read. But I wanted to respond to at least some of your questions. I also don't know how I have made it through these 10 years alone. Although there have been bad times, I must give you hope that there have mostly been good times. I still believe that my marriage was worth saving.I am blessed again catnip, since there is no court involvement. My H agreed to give OW monthly payments for child and he has completely honoured that agreement. However, she continually calls him for "extras" - she wants her child to have the best of everything - and he guiltily complies. It drives me crazy to see hundreds of dollars being spent on extras for OC while I juggle my household bills.After ten years of faithfulness, my H recently had an Internet affair. Very explicit graphic written sex which I found on the e-mail. He immediately agreed to go to counselling and we have been dealing with that just fine. But, it brought up all the old feelings about the OW and OC and questions about how solid our marriage really is. This has been a very difficult time but we are getting through it.Jenny, I wanted a big family more than anything. I had planned on 5 children. Although I love my two, I am full of envy and resentment over the life that I feel I missed. And, I also feel that a good deal of my married life has been spent dealing with OW and OC rather than concentrating on my own family. Yes, the experience can make your marriage stronger. But let's face facts -- if we had a choice, not one of us would choose this route for marital improvement. We simply want our lives back and there is always that anger under the surface over the fact that our lives were taken from us and things will never be the same. My H's family knows the whole story because the OW was a friend of his sister. No one in my family and none of my friends know. It is embarrassing enough that his family knows. I never felt that I could talk to anyone about this -- it was a situation that should be hidden from other normal people. This has put an added burden on me because in front of family and friends we must be the "perfect" couple.I worry all the time about what kind of contact he is having with the OW when he sees the OC. Remember, she took him away from me once, I keep feeling that it can be done again. I wonder if the OW accompanies them sometimes on their outings. Or, if she takes those opportunities to remind him of some old fond memories, etc.My kids do not know about the OC -- my H did not want them to know. This terrifies since I fear that one day the OC will appear at my door or my H's family will tell them in a nasty way that will hurt them. They are very close to each other and they adore their dad, so I worry about what effect this news would have.I feel the OC has no real bond with my H. Although I must say she has already learned the art of asking him to buy her things during his visits. The visits are more to satisfy my H's guilt than they are to bond with the OC.I have so much to say to all of you. I hope I haven't overloaded you with this post. I will sit down and write the whole story. Meanwhile, I am so very glad to meet all of you. I wish you all the best and I hope that I will be able to give you all some hope that you can and will survive this horrible experience.Take care everyone.

HB26, I am glad you found this place. If it wasn't for my favorite angel "Happygirl", I wouldn't be here either. She found me somewhere else, and brought me here. It's helped me a lot to get through these feelings I have had, and given me a lot of the information I needed to start the healing of my marriage. It's an ongoing battle, and some days are better than others, but I can see us making it now. When we first seperated, I was so angry. I still have anger, but we are working it through. Now we can talk about it, and the more we talk about it, the less hold it has on me. I doubt I'll ever forget it, but hopefully I can just leave it behind. I'll stand by H, through whatever we have to go through, and this thing which could of killed us, will actually make us stronger. Take care.