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i have been reading regularly and have seen seemingly so many people struggling through this holiday season. it breaks my heart and i hope all can find a way through their troubles. fullhouse and i are also struggling and our relationship seems more distant then ever. she is due any day now and we had fears that she would deliver on our 22 wedding anniversary. luckily for us that was not the case. i made an appointment with a lady from an adoption agency to come to the house and give us some information. i asked fh if it was ok and she said it was fine. the truth came out after that she was crushed i even made the appointment. she is haveing no success at finding it in her heart to place the child for adoption. and at the same time i am finding no success in my heart with separation of child from the hurts of her a.. my problems are these. although i feel i love my w and cannot imagine not waking with her beside me every morning i don't feel that unconditional love to allow me to separate a and child. i believe i understand how she fell into her a and don't feel like i hold that against her. i just see the hurt in her pregnacy. she says she has completely separated the 2 and all she sees is her little girl. she does not understand why i can't do the same. i understand all about the innocence of a baby. she did nothing but can't imagine not seeing the pain every time i look at the baby. i haven't been able to make any connection with the c. the c is of mixed blood and i invision the bio father when i think of her. am i giving this guy to much power over me? why can't i let him go? if she keeps c we will almost definetly divorce as i don't want my income considered in their cs agreement. (this brings its own legal concerns with it.) quetions -- how do you separate the child from the painful emotions of the affair? is the answer his $'s? (please don't go to the uneguatability of the whole cs system. I AGREE WITH YOU ALL ON THAT.) will digging deep into his wallet make me feel vindicated for his touching my w in that manner? does that make me an opportunistic bs? is this just the hardest time dealing with w delivering om's c?

Pops,I identify. However in love I must confess that I think you are giving the other man the power to continue taking from you. What he took was not his, but your wife is your wife and apparently she is repentant and does want to be with you, not him. I think you must decide what God is leading you to and then begin to live it. Reclaim you life and your wife from this man. Take away his power to control your emotions. I'm reminded of a cheer that I used to hear back in high school, "Act enthusiastic and you'll be enthusiastic!" Life is not about feelings. You can't trust feelings to be your compass in life. Following "feelings" is what led most of the wayward spouses here into affairs. You must choose to live your life based on what's true, good and right. You must choose your path and begin to intentionally live it and dissolve the power this affair still has over you. Don't allow this ordeal to continue taking from you. It's taken far too much already. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. Thankfully, for whatever reason, I'm not struggling quite as hard as you are with the OC being a reminder of the affair. This is no small thing, because I have always been very sentimental and attached to things that were "special" to me and my wife. Have I grown and matured over the years or am I just niave? I don't know, but I'm thankful that God is giving me the grace to live through this situation. I'm open to this child and I'm trying to be intentional about rubbing her belly and being close concerning the baby. I plan to go to her next OBGYN appt. It's not that it's easy and there's no hurt associated with it. That would be far from the truth. I'm just trying to live as God leads, and He continues to enable me to do that. Be courageous. If you love your wife, fight for her in whatever capacity you have to. Fight your own emotional battles and don't give up until you emerge victorious over this sin (not your own) that has infiltrated your life. This baby is clean and pure and innocent. God has a purpose for this child. Hope my words are recieved well.P51

pops:The thing that will allow you to separate the child from the affair is forgiveness. It's not money, blood, the death of an OM, or anything else. The problem is that you've got to come to terms with forgiveness, and you're not there yet.Are you in professional marriage counseling yet? Frankly, if you're considering divorce but you want to try to keep this marriage together---you're crazy if you're not. A professional will help you work with your emotions and help you make a short-term plan for the marriage. I highly recommend the counseling you can receive over the phone here at MarriageBuilders (888-639-1639 for appts); Steve Harley helped me through a very similar situation by asking hard questions of me, and then developing a strategy.I love my little OC with all my heart. I look at him and see God's love---he's a gift that God gave me for dealing with my wife's affair. But to get to that point, I had to forgive---both my wife and the OM. The OM isn't involved in this child's life in any way, and that's the way I prefer it. He's not mixed race, so the only thing I have to remind me of his parentage is that little hairy back (which happens to be extremely ticklish...). I would probably suggest that you try to keep the OM out of this, unless your need to extract a "price" from him is high on your need list. My OM is paying a big price---he doesn't know this wonderful child. Maybe that's no big deal for him; and maybe it keeps him up at night. But either way, forgiveness of him has allowed me to just not worry about it---as you say, it releases you from this power that the affair has had over you.I'd love to help you with the journey to forgiveness, but it's very different for individuals. There are lots of good books available on it, and I'd suggest that you look up the subject at Amazon.com and order a book or two.God bless you, and Merry Christmas. Hey---how do you think Joseph felt??? I'm imaging that you struggle with some of the same.

Pops,I really feel for you but I must say both P51 and K has put it so well. But really only you know what you need to do. Listen to what God is telling you and if he wants you to stay He will give you the love and strength you need to be a daddy to your wifes baby.My thoughts and prayers are with you and fullhouse,broken_wings

Pops, I still believe in your listening to your inner voice. many on here invoke the name of
God as something leading you in some direction. you wife could just as easily say God led her to give herself to this man. frankly, God is not involved in our lives. I know many blame satan for the bad stuff and God for the good stuff, but honest examination of life will show that to be a false outlook. its takes a lot of faith to dismiss the fundalmentalist ideas and few have it. this is why I say listen to yourself. I don't think you can accept this child and its your wifes burden not yours. she brought this on herself, now she has to make a choice. you are under no obligation to sell yourself out as a man and a husband. as far as her still being your wife? she can never be your wife in the same sense she was prior to this episode. should you attempt to raise this child its entirely possible that your whole family will suffer in the long term as well as this child. I must say that I believe your first take was the correct one for you. she either gives up child or gives up marriage. the old study long and study wrong has some basis in reality . just my take on things God bless

p51, it is nice to see you are making such progress with your marriage. i agree whole heartidly with you that you must not live by your feelings and your emotions. however, as human beings it is very difficult to ignore the powerful emotions involved when dealing with an a.. my wife and i have 6 kids of our own. we had made a conscious decision together not to have any more. that is why i had a vasectomy. that is also why i feel God did have a purpose for this child's life. and that purpose was to not only make it possible for a childless couple to have a family but also to give my w a new start and a definite feeling of giving after going through this most selfish period in her own life.k, the answer is yes to professional counseling. several times. 1st time was in march 2001 when she was just starting the emotional attachment needed to have the a and prior to any physical relationship. she guit going and 4 days later was sexually involved with om. 2nd time was right after d-day we were going to a couples counselor from church and she was still in the fog or withdraw phase of the a so that ended guickly also. 3rd was in mid june 2001 we were going to a private counselor. she basically asked if w could place baby for adoption and w said no. then turned to me and said that's her choice now you need to make a choice whether to accept child and marriage or not. 4th time was through my health insurance and this counselor refered to the story of Joseph and Mary like yourself. my reply to her was that if i remember the story (my memory has been known to be questionable at times) Joseph did believe Mary was unfaithful and was prepared to leave her until the Angel came to him and told him her child was Jesus, the Son of God. but you are right maybe extracting some toll from him is to high a need on my part but maybe it is that i feel this man (loosely termed) needs to be responsible for his actions along with my w and it will teach my kids that there are always consequences to be paid for ones actions. my 10 year old is going to learn about consequences as he will probably be suspended from school for a day for climbing on the school roof. just another minor example of responsibility. broken_wings, you are right that i need to listen to what God is telling me. to do so i feel is to live the life he has guided me through for nearly 50 years now. that is why i feel so strongly the way i do about bing responsible. are we to teach our children that it just doen't matter what you do because all we have to do is ask society for forgiveness and all is well. what of the habitual achoholic hwo drives drunk and kills an innocent mother and child. yes we need to be able to forgive but we also need to teach our kids responsibility.joell, you are also right that niether God nor Satan made my w wonder. i believe that God mearly leads us to the fork in the road and we must use our own character and sense of virtue to decide which path we take. some of us are strong enough to resist temptation for what ever the reason and some of us are not. yet we all must still stand up and face the consequences for our decisions. i am however having a hard time facing the reality of my w having another mans baby and my marriage ending after we have created 22 years of history together. and this is the first hurdle of any large proportion in all that time (and NO we DID NOT have the perfect marriage). but i did not realize how far apart we had grown until it was to late. and i am NOT taking responsibility for her a..to all, i am not trying to attack anyone in particular or start a male vs. female thing here. but from the posts i have read here, it seems to me that for the most part when an a has striken a marriage, if the h was the one to stray most bw's want nothing to do with oc. however when the w has strayed the bh seems to be almost expected to accept the oc as his own and move on. i know this is not a 100% of the time deal but seems to be more the rule. i may be wrong with this analysis and if so i want to appoligize for hurting any feelings. if i am looking at this the wrong way your replies are most definitely welcome.these are just questions i have come across while trying to make sense of my individual situation. i am trying to step outside of the emotions and apply logic to my decisions. this is very difficult to do at times.thanks for all viewpoints and may everyone find some peace and joy during this christmas season. remembering that the birth of a child is the reason for our celebration may ease all our hearts for awhile oh yeah, for all those of you east of l.a. it is freezing out here on the coast. i almost had to put on a pair of long pants today.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>oh yeah, for all those of you east of l.a. it is freezing out here on the coast. i almost had to put on a pair of long pants today.<hr></blockquote>Aw pops...I know what you mean..about the long pants...lol.As far as accepting baby. I see that trend of accepting when it's the wife and not accepting when it's the husband too.I think each couple must do what is right for their situation. I see the anger and hurt you have. Perhaps because your W didn't try with you when you first started counseling..went ahead and had a physical affair right after quitting counseling. Something you tried to do to help you two and she ignored it all and had A. To me it would cause great anger. And then to have a baby on top of it all is way too much too soon.I am one who tried to include my H's mistake. It didn't work and brought me down. It INCLUDED the ow, at a distance, but INCLUDED her and I can't be married and act as if she were an x-wife. Can't ever deal with it again. H know it and has given up visiting his "mistake" as he referes to it NOW after 8 months of bullcrap.In acceptance situations here the H NEVER includes om. Maybe that is how it works. It would be the only way for me.Just a thought.You are you. Do not leave the marriage until you are sure you cannot deal with the baby.If it were me and I loved you...I'd give it up to have peace and harmony with you. A second chance. The adoptive parents would be loving and feel blessed by what your wife has done. Giving them a first chance to have what you have experienced 6 times. Then all of you can reunite as a family undivided again. And look to the future with love.JMHO.Debi

It sounds like your emotions are running high right now but I think the reason your wife has bonded with the baby already is due to the pregnancy. I think when you see the baby, your feelings could change dramatically. Especially if you will be the only father she will know. If the baby sees you as father, she will love you unconditionally because that is just how kids are... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I agree with K, if you dig into OMs pockets, you will NEVER be rid of him... UGH! Forgiveness will remove you FAR FROM HIM!

pops:FWIW, I don't think too much about your counseling experiences. Not one of your counselors has helped you to make a plan to evaluate your marriage. They're just getting the two of you to make opposing statements, and then saying "hey, it's up to you to make decisions".Christ---I'd love to get paid $120/hour for that kind of lousy work.If you're not going to pursue more counseling, then you need a plan. I would suggest that you think about whether you can live without being the primary custodian of your children. This is the likely outcome of a divorce---although if your wife feels guilty enough to let you have the kids and she'll move out (and you want that), it's a great way to proceed.I would suggest that you preface a true divorce action by using a Plan B separation. No contact, and do it for at least 6 months. That will give you a trial of divorce, as well as taking the obvious emotional toll of having a newborn around away from your plate. It will not have an effect of making your wife love you more---at best, she'll understand and have to deal with the consequences; at worse, she'll hate and despise you for throwing her out, and should you want to reconcile, you'll have a lot of work to do. Again, it's best if you have an interest in being the custodial parent to have your wife leave during the separation. If you're not worried about having primary custody of the kids---then it's probably more effective for you to leave (and leave her with the responsibility of being the primary caregiver for the kids AND dealing with being pregnant).Again, these are "plans" that Steve Harley or Jenn Harley would be very capable of working through with you. They'd also probably love to speak with your wife: to help judge where she is in the marriage, as well as to point out the reality of her situation to her (not that she'll listen...). Pops, I'm assuming that you're here because you still want your marriage---so again, I'd tell you to put it in the hands of experts for the next couple months, and see what happens. One other major issue that I see with you is your need to make your spouse "responsible" (and the OM, and everyone else in your life). Personal responsibity is a great thing---and I believe much as you do. But you won't find it effective to try to punish others (especially adults) as a means to make them more accountable or responsible. You simply have to lead and demonstrate how responsible people behave---and give them feedback for how their actions and behaviors affect you, WHEN they are receptive to hearing it. Bottom line---you are never to punish your spouse. Why? 'Cause it doesn't build love---and romantic love is a critical ingredient to a happy marriage.

bt_dt, thank you for your reply. i most certainly have emotions running thru me and kind of suspect that fh has plenty running thru her also. i can't remember ever knowing a pregnant woman who was not both extremely emotional and moody during her last trimester. nor have i ever known one that didn't bond with her child while the child was still in her womb. honestly i would be disappointed if she was incapable if that. i see my w's dilemma as not being able to separate herself from her baby and step back and look at things objectively for what is best for our marriage. she has stated several times that she would have made opposite decisions had she been able to see into the future. i do not want to live in hindsight any longer. i have no doubt in my mund that although i haven't bonded as of yet, that if we were to raise this child in our home i would both bond to her and love her. also that she would love me as her dad. when she grew older and understood the enormous emotions of accepting a child under these conditions she and i would be bound together thru all time. because (and i don't blow my own horn often but here goes) i am a great dad, father, pop etc.. my feeling great about seemingly becomeing a "saint" because i was able to love an innocent child is not the problem. there are lots of wonderful adoptive parents out there who are quite capable of forming those same relationships with this child. what the real issue here is whether fullhouse and myself can recapture our marriage. i personally feel this will be extremely difficult with the child in front of me as a constant reminder of her a.. it has nothing to do with loveing the child or not or forgiving fh or not. forgiveness does not mean forgetfulness. sometimes a wedge can be driven between two people so deep that no matter how much or how hard those two try to reconcile it remains impossible. we are trying to keep from separateing if at all possible. that is why we haven't even considered plan b. somehow there has to be a way of surviving this where we both come out as complete whole individuals working towards a common goal of a healthy and thriving marriage.

Pops . well said,last post. few seem to get it, the problem is not with loving the child, but accepting what the child represents to you. loving the child likely means placement with loving foster parents. sometimes, love requires we take the hard road. most on here appear to take the easy road. i.e. accepting what life hands them. I have said before, you have great self insight. I don' intend my comments to be critical of others. Its hard sometimes to work through things . I know from experience. but Im a great believer in adoption. there are so many people who want a child to love. some even go into war torn countries to find children and that has to tell us something . God bless

Pops: <blockquote>quote:<hr>what the real issue here is whether fullhouse and myself can recapture our marriage. i personally feel this will be extremely difficult with the child in front of me as a constant reminder of her a...<hr></blockquote>I completely agree with the first statement. You must create a loving, stable marriage to be successful. I also am sure that you have a ton of doubt about being able to raise a mixed-race child without having this irritate you right out of the marriage---and frankly, you'll can't be sure until you go through it. My guess is, however---the child is probably not going to be a major issue. Recovering the marriage is---and it's not a slam dunk whether you adopt out this child or keep it.My "affair reminder" is coming up the stairs now. I had a lot of the same doubts that you do now. I also prided myself on loving children and being a good dad. You know something---the acceptance of the child has been easy. It's dealing with the marriage that's the hard work---and you've got to do that, regardless.If you're bent on staying together, you need a PLAN to work on your marriage. And I see nothing to indicate that you really have one. A basic tenent of the MB philosophy is the Policy of Joint Agreement---do nothing unless you and your spouse enthusiastically agree to it. You need to learn to put this idea, along with "radical honesty", into your marriage RIGHT NOW. Your wife and you are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and you need the help of a qualified professional to teach the two of you these skills (and negotiation skills), as well as helping you with a PLAN to save your marriage should the negotiations fail. You didn't have a whole lot of time to do this when you first came here---and time is running out now.Joell---I think most of the people around here "get it". You've got a very black and white view---an ultimatum to adopt out the child (which I wholeheartedly agree is the best solution for Pops) or divorce. But I'm not sure Pops is ready for divorce (he's not even ready for separation). There are a lot of grey areas here---and we're trying to get Pops and his wife to work these issues out together. I can pretty much guarantee you that if Pops gives his wife an ultimatum, the marriage will end---she likely doesn't love him enough to survive this at this point in the marriage. However, with some skilled counseling and some new marital skills, it's possible that Pops' wife would come to the conclusion that adoption might be the best thing. Also, if Pops have a feeling that his wife was falling back in love and that he was being more secure in the marriage---his outlook might change as well.We're trying to get Pops to this point. Remember---this is a sight for building your marriage using MarriageBuilders. This isn't meant to single you out, but it's helpful if you understand the concepts and can try to illustrate them to help someone in Pop's position.

Pops, K and others,Would you indulge me a bit? As many of you know I have never been in Pops or K's situation, yet I feel compelled to say few things. Some of which have already been said. Perhaps saying them a bit differently might provide a different perspective. I hope so.First an anology. I play golf and when I read Pops posts here it reminds me of golf. I don't know how many of you play this insidious game [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] , but it is a lot like life: it is unfair.You can hit a great drive and have the ball take a bad bounce and end up in the woods. Your opponent can hit an awful shot have it hit a tree and kick out right in the middle of the fairway. However, the point of my golf analogy is this. THe difference between the good golfer and the bad golfer is what they do when they are in the trees.When in this situation there often is a tiny slot between the trees that will get you to the green. So the bad golfer will grab a club and try the shot. Never mind that he couldn't get the ball to the green from the fairway on his best day. Never mind that he has to hit the shot within a foot left of right over a hundred yards away. Never mind that essentially there is little chance of this working and a great chance of things becoming worse. The good golfer does factor in these things and then looks for the clearest and simplest way to get the ball out of the woods. He takes the penalty for the bad break and plays on. This means focussing on the next shots not the ones that have been made. Golf unlike any other sport requires that ALL mistakes be added to the score card. There are no second serves, 4 balls before the walk, another down, etc. The mistake is recorded and added to the score. The bad golfer focuses on the mistake, the good golfer focuses on the next shot.Pops, you have been offered alot of advice most of it I agree with. But one thing you are going to have to face is that like golf the prudent move is to take the penalty and play the next shot while putting the last shot behind you.With that in mind I have two recommendations for you.Seek CS from the OM[b]
[b]Take putting the baby up for adoption off the table when dealing with your WLet me address the first recommendation. I realize it brings OM back into your life. I also know that most here recommend that you not do this. But I look at this differently. I am older than you by almost a decade and I still have a young teenager at home. If you were 29, or 39 my advice would be different. But, you are at an age where the child will still be home when you are in your mid to late 60's.You owe it to that child and your other children to take care of them. And that means getting CS from the OM in my mind. That is this baby's insurance policy against you losing your job (over 50 it is hard to get another one, I know), poor health (yes, you are entering the heart attack/cancer/whatever age [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ), and the break up of your marriage. Further, it means that your other children will have more resources in the event of any of these catastrophies. Pops as you have pointed out and others agree putting the baby up for adoption is clearly a win situation for everyone... except your W. Lets look at the situation again.She chose to have an affair.She chose not to use birth control (Don't even want to hear how a mother of 5 children, does understand how pregnancy occurs).She chose not to terminate the pregnancy (yup with the right to chose comes the responsibility to face the consequences of that choice). She chose the baby over her marriage and her family.She has, to date, choosen to not put the baby up for adoption.I can sum up these actions in one word: SELFISH.I can also tell you that whether the baby is put up for adoption or not Full House will be who she is. The baby is not the issue. As K pointed out and you confirm the issue is the marriage, not the baby. If the marriage were to be rebuilt, then the baby becomes minor, if the marriage continues in present state the baby is major. HOWEVER, the baby is only the symptom of the problem.So is the OM. That is why I recommend CS from him. If your W won't do that, then she really doesn't even have the new babies best interest at heart. For she doesn't know if the marriage will last, you will survive to see the child raised, or you can support your family for all of the years to come. THe presence of the OM, is minor. If she still loves him, then the baby is not the issue. If she won't rebuild the marriage the baby is not the issue.This brings me to your need for responsibility and yes even revenge. Frankly, just reading your posts makes what to see them pay. But Pops, life is like golf. The OM hit into the trees and bounced out. You hit it in the fairway, and you end up in the trees. You must deal with your next shot not his or even your W's. He still has a whole round to play and the odds favor that he won't always bounce out of the trees.Your job is to shoot a low a score as possible and take responsibilty for what you can control even if imperfectly. Your W has a different set of issues. It is clear she isn't worried about your support. THat is why she won't put the baby up for adoption. She can be selfish because I gather you ,as I do, live in CA. She will get half of the accumulated wealth of the family, and she will get child support for the other children. That will be enough to raise the baby as well.No matter what you do, you will help raise that baby.I agree that the marriage could and should be rebuilt because you obviously still have love for her. It isn't clear what her level of commitment is, but it really has little to do with the child.
However, she faces an awesome task. AT 45 she will deliver and nuture a baby. I don't think she fully realizes yet that being 45 is a lot different from being 35. As that child grows her energy will be tested severely. While nuturing the child she must also find the energy to meet your needs and help rebuild the marriage. If she fails she has destroyed a family because of her selfishness.You must do your part, but you know as well as I that women that have just had babies rarely make particularly good W's even in the best of times. That is why pregnancy and young children stress marriages so. But, if she chooses to try it this way, let her. Take the adoption off of the discussion table.Pops, I realize you have always stated you wanted CS. I agree, not because it punishes the OM, but because your children and OC both need the financial insurance due to your age and the stability of your marriage.You have placed adoption on the table as a make or break thing. I understand that her keeping the child against the better judgement of you and many here (although she shouldn't care about us) is a statement that HER needs are more important than yours or the existence of an intact family. But, the real issue as all have noted is will the marriage survive at all.Try rebuilding it with the OC in the picture if Full House insists, but she has bitten off a big bite. She cannot afford to continue to ignore you and your needs because she has a new born. It is her choice let her take responsibility for this, rather than her mistakes (those are shots already played).I hope this rambling offers some different things to think about. I know you are deep in the trees here without much hope, but the smart shot is take the shot that keeps you in the game and damage to a minimum if possible. We all know even these shots can backfire, but they offer the best odds.God Bless,JL

i just got back from the hospital. fh gave birth at 8:57 am today. i am in a state of emotional disarray right now. as horrible and contradictary as it might sound when i heard grace make her firsty sounds (the sweet sounds of a new borns cry) it was as if someone had driven a stake into my heart. yet at the same time when i looked at her i couldn't help to see how beautiful she was and what a miricle life is. the nurse's kept saying that i could cut the cord and it was all right to touch her (been there done that 6 times) (sorry BT_DT) but i just couldn't bring myself to do it. fh was happy but it seemed to me that the atmosphere was more in the line of a death then a birth. it was very sad to me. anyway both baby and mom are healthy. fh had her usual pop tart delivery and every thing went very smooth.for those who have to know grace is 8 lbs. 15 oz., 20-1/2" tall, with great color and lots of dark hair. k -- i agree that we needed to use the theory of joint agreement to help with a solution that was by basis for not bringing the baby into our home. fh did tell me that if i gave her an ultimatum baby or me she would have choose me. but i felt it was not right to force her decision in that manner. i was hoping that she could have looked past herself and made a choice for us. jl -- thank you for your new analagy. it actually makes a lot of sense to me. especially in light of the fact that i feel it is almost impossible for fh to place her baby for adoption now that she will be bonding with her in the hospital and she will most definitely bring her home for our other children to bond with. and since no other recourse has been set in motion. i quess the next step has been determined by default. niether of being able to take action and that seems a terrible shame. i have spospoken with a family law attorney and he said that if fh files for cs he will pay around $500 a month plus 1/2 child care or approx. $800 month. i wish now that cs is going to be a real posibility she would have picked a corporate exec or something. at least she could have made it worth while. reality is it will never be worthwhile. i know this probably has many of you irrate in relation to some of your absorbatent cs payments and i appoligize. if we were to divorce i would be primary custodial parent and spousal support would be nill and even maybe her paying me some small amount when she went back to work. imagine that for minute. h gets kids and alimony. go figure. anyway divorce is not and never has been my goal or intention.just for clarification the stake in my heart was not for grace but instead i felt it next to killed my love for fh. i am not giving up as of yet though. i have always felt that once you quit it's over and i am still willing to try. i am just very doubtful now as to where i will draw my strength from. somehow i will find something [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

justlearning,, you are right i do live in ca. orange county actually. on the golf course i am one of those bad golfers you spook of. if you wouldn't mind and if you are somewhat close i would very much like to hit a round of golf with you sometime. reality check to myself, i don't hit a round of golf i kind of spend alot of time dropping a new ball. oh to be so good at this game that the trees is the only place to look for my ball.

Pops,I really don't know what to say.....
as I do not have your situation..... <blockquote>quote:<hr>just for clarification the stake in my heart was not for grace but instead i felt it next to killed my love for fh. i am not giving up as of yet though. i have always felt that once you quit it's over and i am still willing to try. i am just very doubtful now as to where i will draw my strength from. somehow i will find something <hr></blockquote>
Please know that although many of us come from different backgrounds and situations, we are here for you. Please do not stop venting, posting and letting us know how you are.I think I read in your past posts that you are a relgious person...I am sure you will be drawing your strengths from your beliefs as well.This is a tough time for you. I wish you and FH the best, and much wisdom and discernment for you. Please keep on trying and keep on keeping on...we are here for you and FH too.sending prayers your way...
Twiisty

K...just learning and others. I read your responses and am awed by your insights and takes on things. in total collectively, you (the group)are worth more than most of the counselors all put together that I have ever come to know. I mean that as a compliment. yes K I do give a black white approach. I know that almost nothing in life is that way. I do this for clarity. Like many on here, I want so bad for pops situation to work for him. I think all here wish we could put our arms around him and take some of the pain. Pops I understand how seeing the baby could kill the rest of your feelings for full house, it would me too. like just learning said she has to be selfish to an extent that is hard to swallow. but, the world is full of people like that and honestly they deserve to suffer the consequence of their actions. it seems few ever do. the issue of a mixed race child does makeit even harder to deal with. nevermind how liberal many people perceive themselves they would , if given the choice, choose a child of their own ethnic background. If we were to get really honest with ourselves we would have to admit most men of european descent would have to say that their wife having a childwith someone from another ethnic group would be twisting the knife after being stabbed by the affair. If the wife is honest then they also know this. There is the taboo of this thing and its an emotional reality. It doesn't help us to pretend that it doesn't matter. We live in a world with pretenses of high mindedness, but we should try to be honest with ourselves , if for no other reason than to protect ourselves. The old adage "know thyself" is every more revelant with each and every year that passes. God bless you Pops.

To Pops and Fullhouse,I want to say that I am happy for the safe delivery of Grace, and that both baby and mother are doing well. I also want to say that I feel for you and your pain, Pops. Yes, I was in your W's shoes, but I can also imagine what you are feeling, as our sweet Abbi is/was a reminder of my major fall from grace in my marriage. She is now 9 months old(yesterday) and such a joy to both Sailorman and myself. It is very rare to look at her today and have the pain of my betrayal reer it's ugly head. Of course, I am also speaking for myself. I do know that when I talk to Sailorman, he is always happy to hear news of all the kids, not just the older two. He also cried just as hard, the day he left, as when he said good-bye to the older two and Abbi. I am, by no means, trying to tell you that you need to just accept Grace. Not everyone is able to do that. In our case, there was unfaithfulness on both sides, and my H was just lucky that he'd had a vasectomy, so there were no children from his indescretions. You and Fullhouse need to do what is best for YOUR marriage. PLEASE, take K's advice. You need to find a counselor who will direct you to the path of healing, and be your guide during this difficult time. I will pray for all of you.Tigger

Pops,Right now my heart and my prayers go out to you to give you whatever it is that you need in this time. I am thankful that fh and baby are safe and sound, but I pray that you will be the same...Love
bw

Pops,
I am crying here for you and fullhouse.I, being married for almost 28 years can imagine the pain you felt during delivery. Grace wasn't of the special love between you and fullhouse as were your other children, but an in-the-face reminder of what has transpired between you two in less than a year.It would be hard to show any excitement. Did the DR. and nurses know your story? Feeling as you do makes it very hard to accept another baby no matter what color it is.Did om show up or call? Is it a problem? I loved just learning's analogy using golf. I choked up again at your answer.K has great straight forward advice for you.Joell is alas like me in seeing things in black and white. His thoughts hit the reality of the situation while K's give the best possible save-the-marriage advice to come down the pike.Tiggerjdt has a whole different situation. Sailorman and she, after BOTH experiencing betrayal came to the conclusion of acceptance together. They BOTH realized what they almost gave up in each other. They are so sweet together and I know things will be great for them. They have a beautiful family.(I saw pictures to prove it!)You and fullhouse however, must overcome some of lifes hardest obstacles.Again I must say, and it's only how I feel (still) about my H, I would never ever have another man's child. I would give my soul to the devil to make up to H here on earth. PERIOD. IF H didn't want c. God forgive me. I just maybe know all to well the pain from the other side.Pops, I pray for you. I pray for a mircle of God to help you and fullhouse rediscover the love you once had. To live life as God wanted. To continue on in old (older) age together. To sit and watch grandchildren, to stroll through a park on a warm summer day and to stop for icecream....together. To hold hands and lock eyes once again as you make wonderful passionate love again.Please find counseling. God I wish I knew answers for you.Your story and age tugs at my heart.I pray for your peace.love
Debi

i want to thank all of you for your kind words and your full support. it has touched my heart in a way that nothing has ever been able to do in my life. for me to think that there would be so many out there from so far away and so diverse a background who would take the time to offer me both advice and consellation simply floors me. thank you all so much from the bottom of my heart (and i feel like its almost drained completely dry).i do feel however that there is one among us that may need your prayers more then myself. and that is jessica. from the post i read of hers i fear she is falling into a dangerous depression and that can be real frightening. she will be at the top of my prayer list what ever good that will do. but i'll try for her. thank you all again and i will keep everyone posted.

God bless you, Pops---and fullhouse too. I hope that the two of you will be able to work together in a way that builds your love for each other---to find a solution that will put you on the path to healing.

pops,My prayers for you and your whole family. That you can think of someone else at a time like this is amazing.I only heard of someone in your situation secondhand; a friend lived next to a caucasion man who had accepted his wife's (half-Afro-american) daughter from an affair and, obviously, the marriage. My friend thought he was a saint (understandably so), talked about how especially good he was to the little girl, obviously loved the child a lot, but how his 2 older children got heckled and teased by schoolmates who said "she can't be your sister!" At first I wondered why they didn't just tell people she was adopted rather than the stigma of an affair, but then realized that wouldn't make sense to their older children, having seen the pregnancy.I know a midwife who tells women this: Every baby deserves a parent/s who is able to look in that babies eyes and KNOW that the child is SOOO special that all else pales in comparison... IF you are unable to look at your baby/child in that way... consider adoption...
NO child/baby should be considered a burden, payback for misdeeds, etc...However, I realize your situation is much more complex than that, your wife resisting adoption.I really feel for you. There are no easy answers. May God guide you to His will, and angel wings enfold you.
J

Pops,First, it is good to hear that FH and Grace are well. I do like that name by the way. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I do have a couple of comments and a few questions.First, unfortunately I live in N. Ca or I would definitely take you up on your offer. In fact I would suggest you go out and play around sometime, like today. "A long walk puncuated by disappointment." may be what you need at this time. I hate to tell you how many times I have stood in the woods with a driver in my hand trying to hit a 280 yd shot through a 1 ft gap with the predictable (no certain [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ) results.Pops hang in there. I would have to say that yesterday/today was probably the worst day of your life and YET there is hope. Don't give up that Pops.I do have a few questions: Do your older children know of the circumstances? Are they fearful of their family breaking up? Have you talked with them about how they feel? I realize we have been talking to you about this situation and have even talked with FH a time or two, but I worry about your other children as well. You need to be talking to them Pops. In doing so, you may find the answers you need. You know "out of the mouths of Babes". Finally, what has FH said to you lately about this? Has she talked with you much after the delivery?I know this sounds nosey and it probably is, but I suspect that the advice you get will be better if people have some idea where all parties concerned are. After all there are 6 other children, you, FH, and Grace all affected by what you decide, and what FH decides.I know it should never have come to this, but as you know this is the reality of it.In any event, hang in there until the shock of this reality wears off and keep posting.God Bless,JL[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Just Learning ]

to answer some of the questions. fh's obgyn did know of the situation from the start. she has gone to the same group for all 6 of our c's. her favorite dr. was the only one who knew of situation though. he was to do delivery but was called to surgery and the delivery dr. although we knew him he had no idea of situation. om did not show up and i imagine is just hoping this thing staysaway from him. he is very cheap i think. if he had shown up i am sure i would have beat him to death with an instrument suitable for the job, a used bed pan.our kids were told months ago that fh was having a baby and that i was not the father. they were told at that time that we were not planning any divorce or separation. the 4 younger ones (13,11,10,&6) have not put the emotions involved in this type of thing together with the baby yet that i know of. the older ones (20 & 19)were very upset. 20yr old daughter was extremely mad at her mother and things did not begin to get civil again until after she moved out of the house. she is doing well now and is to be married sometime this march. her marriage plans were not spurned on by fh and my situation. our 19 year old son was upset but he is a very easy going kid and figured there is nothing he can do about it so he just contiues to let his mother know he loves her. fh does not talk to any of them about this and that has actually been suggested to us by the counselors. it is to advanced for them at this time in their lives. i dissagree. i feel and have asked fh to discuss this at least with our older 2. but she doesn't think it appropriate. we have not discussed the posiblity of adoption with them which is another reason i am feeling behind the 8 ball so to speak. they have not been prepared for that emotional path should it have or become a reality. i have spoken with the older 2 about it and they seem to understand that it is a viable option for fh and me.fh said to me last night at the hospital that i should call the adoption lady and start proceedings. as much as i wantted to do this i still think we need to make sure she can deal with that conclusion. i am going to call and start things as we still have 90 - 100 days to change our or her mind. at least we may get something in motion in the event that that solution turns out to be our best shot. keep you all posted.

Pops,I just wanted to give you my spport I'm sorry that you and your wife are going through this. Good luck with whatever decsions you both make.Unsure

pops,Do yourself and your W a favor. Go see the adoption lady and start the paper work. You are doing something that really drives me nuts when people do it to me.FH has said to get the papers started. She has said that she would chose you over the baby. THis is very hard for her. Now if you really want this baby put up for adoption, don't fight her on it. She has made her statements. You know she doesn't want to, heck you couldn't love her if she really wanted to get rid of the child as soon as she could. But don't try to argue her "back" into keeping the baby.My W will sometimes ask me to do something. I don't want to, but I think about it and decide it would be agood thing. I agree, then she starts on me about why I am not doing this for the right reason, why I need to reconsider. I am think "heck, I did think about it and I agree, now you are arguing with me because I agree. What is up with that?"
What I am suggesting is not to quiz her about does she "feel" right about doing this. I would ask her about her thinking, confirm with her, but do start the process. The longer she bonds the harder it will be on you. Undoubtably she will be home today or tomorrow and the children will start bonding. Finally, pops you will start bonding as well. Those little raskels are not defenseless as you well know. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] So if FH has agreed don't demand that she sign "enthusiastically in blood". She cannot be very enthusiastic, but she is apparently making decisions.pops you know this is so hard on her. Pops I know that putting the baby up for adoption will be hard on you as well. So start the paper work, and then talk with FH not once but a lot. You know she is hurting making this decision, and that is normal. What you really need to know and she needs to be really clear on is her reasoning and thoughts. You don't to have her put the baby up for adoption and then you decide that you cannot work on the marriage. So if part of this is to keep you, then make sure you want to be kept.Pops, I do think adoption may well be better for the baby. But, look at K and see the strong positives of going the other way. You and FH need to talk like never before. I mean honest, straight from the heart, and with all of the prayer you two can muster.God Bless,JL

<blockquote>quote:<hr>So if part of this is to keep you, then make sure you want to be kept.<hr></blockquote>No truer words were written her Pops. Make sure you want to be kept!Would you miss the former life you and W shared? Sans the infidelity? Would you be ok to be on your own? I KNOW you'd eventually be ok, but can you live without FH? If not then talk, and be honest! Seek a counselor.I know what you mean about the older kids. Just watch out for their anger in a little while. They can become angry and moody w/o knowing why. They may also need counseling and eventually all of you together to reassure them you're staying together. (If you do).I will pray for you Pops. Perhaps this spring you'll be out on the golf course with a better life and future. I know what you mean about a drained heart. Hey the used bed pan sounds just about good right now [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .Take care of yourself Pops.I wish there was a way for us all to get together in person and hug each other.The people on this forum are truly the best inspiration a human being could have. Prayers to you Dear Man.Debi

Pops don't delay, and best if you make it a irrevocable adoption sealed records and the works. again don't delay. to do so will hurt your wife and could mess up things for you. please full steam ahead God bless

well i went back to the hospital friday night after talking on the phone with adoption agency friday afternoon. i told fh what they said we needed to do and she said she couldn't go through with it. the light at the end of my personal tunnel is getting clearer and clearer. very honest discussion followed. same ones i have been having with her for the past 6 wekks or so. i have used every analogy, every example of what if, and every possible ending to our situation i could think of to try and make her see that bringing this child into our home is going to be a 50/50 possibility at best of me being able to accept it. asked her please don't gamble with our marriage. well baby came home saturday morning. and it was not good for me. ihave asked her to stay in our 6 year olds room with grace as i don't wish to have them next to me in our bed. please don't tell me anything about plan b now. the truth is that if we went to plan b i would most likely be the one to not want to return. the answer to your question gemini is although i would definitely miss what we had before i will not miss what we have at this time with the baby. i will not miss the hurt of her holding his child to her breast. agin this may seem strange but i feel almost ashamed of myself that i can look at this innocent child and feel the hurt and feelings disassociation build in my heart. i have even tried explaining to fh that love bank account is empty. i ahve told her that i am out of suggestions and ideas to try and save our relationship. every one i have offered she has found a way of refuting. now it is her chance to find an alternative or some form of reconciliation process and put it in motion. i am open to anything she wishes to try. she has said maybe she should find a christain counselor. i told her that we had already been there but i will try whatever she wanted. i personaly feel this was the wedge that will keep us apart forever. regardless of what either of us desire. i am not leaveing my house or my children and i will not ask her to leave until she has a chance to get another job and get on her feet financialy. therefore she has that long to try and find us a way of reconciliation. as emotional as this is and has been for me i have also come to realize that i am quite capable of starting over if that is what needs to be done. i would rather live apart then live together with her or myself being an incomplete person unable to live with our choices. I am also not th kind of person that will drag this pain out in my life for 2,3 or more years. that is not what i call love. it has been so nice having all of you here to lean on. no matter which side of this fence you stand on. all viewpoints are necessary in order to see the whole picture as clearly as possible. i will keep you posted.

Pops I can identify with the sickening feeling of seeing fh holding baby to her breast a place where only your c's had a right to be.As a man I'm sure this is quickly destroying the love you've had for your wife in the past.I DO, however, see compassion for her by the things you've said. Letting her choose counselors. Waiting until fh gets on her feet. Not just leaving her at this time is love. What else would keep you there putting your feelings aside for the moment? Or for as long as it takes her to "get on her feet".What do the younger kids think? Do they sense the tension? With Christmas so close are you able to go on w/family traditions together? Each person must decide what it is they want to do to move forward in life. Sometimes it's best to move ahead seperate. That may allow a friendship rather than anger towards fh for the rest of your lives. See an affair is one thing. It ends and we the bs are left to deal with an incredible, guilt inducing, live memory....a child. "For every thing there is a reason"I believe that. I also believe WS, if wanting to continue a marriage should do what it takes to show bs they want to continue. That marriage comes first. Little ones grow and go on their way leaving us someday. We are then left to ourselves to perhaps grow old together. To share as we once did while dating. Alone together at last!Making the OC more important than the marriage is almost too much for SOME here. While each situation is different, each individual must come to do what is right for THEM and THEIR marriage.I pray you have a peaceful holiday w/fh. I pray for your love to find it's way bringing you two back together if it is God's will. I think it is. Geeze all those kids together! It would be horrible to destroy all that God has given you two.Tell fh I pray for her and wish her well.Bless you two.love
Debi

Pops,
This pain must be beyond imagination for you. I do not have any words of wisdom, but I do pray that you and fh can find a counselor who may help you both feel some peace.Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Pops,Though I am new to this site and don't have any life altering insight to offer, I just want to encourage you and tell you how much I admire you. Your particular circumstance does seem overwhelming. How did your six other children react to the news that their mother was pregnant by another man? Are they young, teenagers, adults? I pray for God to continue to give you the patience, understanding, and love for your wife that will obviously be needed. I will be eager to learn how your relationship with the OC develops as well as the recovery of your relationship with your wife.

Pops,I will continue to pray for you and FH.Sincerely,
Twiisty