Hi All-
I haven't been here in a while. I am the WW of Todd1967. As many of you that have read our story and followed us in the past, this has been a unbelievably long road. We are just over 4 years since d-day and I feel we are at rock bottom again. We have been here before but this time feels different. Something has to change...but what??
We both play the blame game so well. I have gone through many different times where I have really put forth lots of effort (I think Todd would agree), with very little to no avail. He just seems so disconnected and it is as if I don't even really exist. He barely acknowledges me unless he feels like it. The children and I were out of town visiting his mom and sister (whom I have a great relationship with- his mom knows of the A.). When we returned last night there was not even really any eye contact with me. He spoke to the children and hugged them but not anything to me. We talked a little before going to sleep and we both agreed that something needed to change. In the past I have asked him what is it that I need to do. What does he want in a wife and I either get: I don't know or a faithful wife. Neither one of those answers helps me. So my question to you all is...what can I do???
I don't want a D but it almost seems like that is the only thing left to do. We are BOTH so very bitter and angry. After 4 years I don't feel like there has been any progress. Of course in my point of view, he has not given me anything to work with and I feel he blames me for everything. And I feel like he has not let go or barely tried at all.
I would be willing to take a lie detector test or go and do just about anything to prove to him that he knows everything. I really don't think that would help. I think there is so much more than him not feeling like he has the whole story. It is his inability to let this go. This A. happened 11 years ago although he found out only 4 years ago. We have 3 beautiful children that are starting to really take notice of the way daddy treats mommy and they are starting to ask questions. I feel like life is too short. I want to enjoy it with the children and if he wants to join us GREAT!!!My self worth is just about shot and I need to get in a better place. I just don't know where that place is. Unfortunately I think it may be in a place with out him.
Anyone have any ideas???
Cruise
Is he seeing another woman?
No, I'm fairly positive. What did I write that made you ask that??
perhaps it is time to give up. It's been 4 years and life is passing by.
I think that there comes a time where you just need to realize that things are not getting any better. I spent some time talking to Todd in the past and felt that I was understanding him. Dr. H makes it clear that some people will not get over an affair. I think Todd is one of them. Your pound of flesh has been paid a long time ago and really, if life has not gotten any better...give yourself a chance at happiness...move on.
I think Pep asked because he is showing all the signs of it.
What I need is some advice. I am 99% certain there is no one else involved. You see if he did that then he couldn't view himself as better than me anymore.
What can I do?? He won't leave and I don't want to. We are at an impass.
Cruise
And Cruise...you are NOT a WS. You have earned your F.
Seems to me this is the way Todd's been from D-day. There's never been the slightest indication that he wants the marriage to move forward or heal; he seemed to fasten onto a sense of martyrdom with perverted pleasure, and has never let go.
I can't imagine he would risk losing the moral high ground by having his own affair.
Four years is plenty of time to decide whether you want to begin the process of recovery. Todd, I think, is addicted to the sense of being wronged. Righting the marriage would deny him his fix.
TA
I think perhaps your H feels that he is stuck in a horrible position: To him, staying means accepting a relationship with someone that doesn't see him as a soul-mate, as the #1 person in their life, someone that they'll always be faithful with, someone that he can't afford to let himself fall in love with again because she broke his heart so badly. OTOH, leaving will likely mean a more difficult life for his children and perhaps himself.
If you do decide to stick it out, here's some ideas:
1. Don't let yourself get caught up in his "moods". Instead, show empathy for how he feels, and at the same time try to break the depression cycle. Get him involved in an activity that he likes, for example. Do NOT respond to his moody behaviour with moody behaviour on your part.
2. Engage him to meet your ENs. Show him that you're looking for HIM to meet those ENs. Give him a list of things you'd like him to DO, and I don't mean things like "smile at me when I come home", but things that show that you see tremendous value in him and his input into your M.
3. Do not pass up an opportunity to demonstrate that he is #1 in your life, and you value alone-time spent with HIM, moods and all.
4. Realise that the only person you can really change is you. Form a list of those behaviours or habits of yours that detract from your M, and form a plan to reduce or eliminate them. Get to really know his ENs and how best to meet them. Become the best spouse you can be in your M.
No, I'm fairly positive. What did I write that made you ask that??
this .....
He just seems so disconnected and it is as if I don't even really exist.
this is how my H treated me when he was 'away & astray'
just thought it was worth a question
I agree with MIM. I've seen Todd posting and reading here very consistently. So I think he DOES want you and the marriage.
Do you give him lots of appreciation and admiration? Or is he just a pay check?
Does he make an effort to meet your top needs?
Do you spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together?
TA,
That's right. MEDC was a big supporter of Todd's back then. So if MEDC thinks it time to leave that ship then perhaps it is.
Cruise,
Todd had had 4 years to see how you've changed, and you've been willing to wait for him to come around. And you've defended his choices due to his childhood issues.
Do you believe that you've done everything you can to let him know that you have remained faithful, love him and want to do everything within your power to restore the M?
If you have done everything you can and have been doing it for a while now, then that says it all. You have done everything you can. It is now up to him, as it has been for 4 years.
My W has a friend that has been in a M for the last 9 years where her H basically treats her and their M like [email]cr@p.[/email] He spends time with her, now xgf, doing things for her that he should be doing for his W. She used to be an attractive woman. But now, she looks old, she's let herself go, is rarely in a good mood, her H has turned her DD against her with his lies. Her father passed away 2 weeks ago and her H won't help her with anything.
But she has refused to seek the D that really needs to happen. He knows she won't do it, so he continues to walk all over her.
He will not change because he has nothing to motive him to change. IMO, I think Todd will remain the same until you take a drastic step like that.
Even if he seems to come back after you make that step, make sure he isn't doing it just to keep you from pursuing the D. Just like a WS, he needs to prove to you that he wants the M.
I am sooo sorry to see you're still where you were years ago.
You're right; something has got to give, But I don't think it's going to be Todd. Sorry.
S&C
And Cruise...you are NOT a WS. You have earned your F.
You sure have.
S&C
Hi Cruise, i think of you once and a while and wonder how you are. I'm very sorry to hear that you two are still struggling.
my DH has a hard time too, i don't think he will ever truely forgive, it's just not in him, at least not now. i will say he does try to have the present day be better. something i don't take for granted.
but it's been a long time and it goes slow.
best advice i can give to you is to really OWN your decision, if you are going to stay then OWN your staying. your eyes are wide open, you know what he is able to do. if you want to stay you have to accept that he will possible always struggle.
that said, i also think you do need to speak up, without anger and tell him anytime he does something that hurts you. i think that might have helped me the most, i would tell him, after the fact, in I sentences without anger, just matter of fact. and there were time that approach helped him see the meaness in himself.
i think there came a time when he didn't like what he saw, SOME of the times. just some of the times.
anyway, i am sorry for your continued pain. all the best.
Some people just cannot forgive the betrayal and it seems that Todd is one of those guys. I guess the good thing is that he is still there but maybe that is not enough.
I am one of those that could not forgive such a betrayal but I won't apologize for it either. I told my wife years ago that I would never cheat on her and there would never be anyone else, but I also said if she did have sex with another man I would not be understanding and I would divorce her. I guess that is probably why she would not come clean about her affair. I am a man of my word and I divorced her.
Some of us just can't get over it. Don't get me wrong my wife treated my like crap for a lot of years and I still stayed with her. But having sex with another guy is a deal breaker.
If Todd is that kind of guy I don't know what else you can do. I have read your story for years and I feel bad for both of you. This stuff is very hard on both spouses.
Yes, Cruise, but Todd has been violently opposed to even discussing them, let alone accepting and implementing them in his life. So let me just restated the premise as succinctly as I know how....for someone who claims to be a believer the issue is obedience to God regardless of feelings. In other words, we CHOOSE to:
Walk with God in humble obedience or we choose to "do it our own way."
Toward God or away from God. Which will it be Todd?
To the one who endured everything and laid down His life willingly for you, what will you do in response to His actions even though He deserved none of it and none of us was worthy of what He CHOSE to do for us?
Who was sinned against to a "greater degree?"
What exactly DOES forgiveness mean and what does LOVE look like from God's perspective?
Hi All-
Sorry I haven't written, I had an amazingly busy day yesterday but I appreciate all of your thoughts and advice.
IHE- You wrote: "Some people just cannot forgive the betrayal and it seems that Todd is one of those guys. I guess the good thing is that he is still there but maybe that is not enough."
I have a hard time understanding this!!Maybe it's because of my personality, but I feel that if one can not forgive then how is it possible to have any relationship with anyone?? I realize what I did is not measured the same as many transgressions but the reasons I did what I did are totally related to issues that "I" was having at that time. (Turning 30, still not having a child, over weight due to infertility drugs...) I am not saying this as excuses rather as reasons. I am now 41 and due to this experience and wisdom with age see M and life soooo differently then I did. I WANT to be happily M to Todd!! That is a fact! When we were in MC quite a while ago, our counselor was discussing with Todd that forgiveness is a choice. I am struggling with the idea that he chooses to not forgive me. Especially when there is so much to loss. (Losing our family, the kids, finances, almost 20 years of M...)Why would someone "choose" to live with this anger and sadness when they have the opportunity to have so much more?? I have been willing and hopeful for all these years that we could come out on the other side of this.
I question myself constantly, and go back and forth in my mind with so many things. What does he want in a wife?? Obviously not what I am. But what?? I don't know becasue he either doesn't really know or he doesn't want to tell me.
Someone asked me if I feel like I have done everything I can. I really can't answer that. I feel there is always something I can do. I struggle with feeling like I am the only one "doing" anything. I realize that Todd does stuff, but as far as my emotional needs...NOT!! It seems when we talk that it is all about what I need to change and when the discussion turns to what I need, he feels I am shifting blame back to him. So the "talks" we have really don't get us anywhere except into a fight.
I appreciate everyones thoughts and ideas. Please continue to respond. I am reading a soaking up everything.
Thanks,
Cruise
Cruise...I would NEVER forgive infidelity again. That doesn't mean I can't have a relationship...it means I would CHOOSE to not have a relationship with someone that cheated on me. I think you need to look at the level of deception here....the ability to forgive and have a relationship does not mean a person should or can overcome adultery. I'm certain Todd can forgive ... just that he CAN'T forgive this.
When we were in MC quite a while ago, our counselor was discussing with Todd that forgiveness is a choice. I am struggling with the idea that he chooses to not forgive me. Especially when there is so much to loss. (Losing our family, the kids, finances, almost 20 years of M...)Why would someone "choose" to live with this anger and sadness when they have the opportunity to have so much more?? I have been willing and hopeful for all these years that we could come out on the other side of this.
CGB, some people have a much more difficult time processing trauma than do others. I don't know that he is choosing to live with the anger, etc. as much as he can't seem to find his way out of it.
IIRC, Todd has very strong thoughts and feelings about honesty. He is probably finding himself caught in a loop that he can't find an "honest" way out of without feeling like he is betraying his core. He probably can't find anything to grab onto that would help him get out of it. I think he also loves you because he is still with you even while having this ongoing battle raging within. The belated discovery of your affair means that his life and future entered a place that he might not would have chosen had he known the truth. But, he loves you and the kids while probably resenting being put in the position he is in. Does that make sense?
Hence, the loop without an exit ramp and the resulting marital limbo.
If he can step past the *feelings* that his beliefs about honesty cause, then he might could start taking some steps out of the loop. Does he view the two as separate things that can be dealt with differently, do you know?
Graphlin,
Do you know Todd?? You have hit the nail on the head as far as his core beliefs and everything!!! It's amazing. I know this is the struggle that he has on a daily basis so since that is the case...is recovery impossible??
I know that if there is any chance that he could get through to the other side of this then I would stay and work as hard as I needed too. If not, then I need to get out so I don't die in the meantime. I don't want the children to grow up thinking that this is what marriage looks like because if they do, it would be gravely wrong. I want more for them then that and I know Todd does too!
MEDC,
Why couldn't Todd forgive this??? If I was continuing to have an A then I could see not forgiving but in this situation I can't!! In a way it seems as though all of the teaching we had as children about forgiveness and love mean nothing. I don't believe that is the case. If he chose to forgive me then I belive he could. Just a thought!
Thanks,
Cruise
Graphlin wrote:"If he can step past the *feelings* that his beliefs about honesty cause, then he might could start taking some steps out of the loop. Does he view the two as separate things that can be dealt with differently, do you know?"
Graphlin,
This is an excellent qeustion that only he can answer. Maybe he will!! Thanks for your thoughts.
Cruise
Cruise...it is not in everyone to forgive an affair. Even God knew that and hence the ability to divorce over that. Dr. Harley makes the point as well.
It is a lot to forgive. It isn't just the affair Cruise...it is the betrayal that resulted in his choices in life being taken from him. In a way I think you are minimizing what he has been through.
Using your logic about love and forgiveness...if we pulled forgiveness from that equation it would appear as though any WS by their very deeds show that loves means nothing. An affair is not an act of love...it is selfish and cruel.
I can look at you now and say I admire you for what you have done...who you are...and the partner you are trying to be. But I have not walked in Todd's shoes. I don't know that I could forgive my life choices being taken from me in the manner they were from him. I might be able to do so...but maybe not. That wouldn't mean it was my choice to not do so...it would be an inability to do so. The only one that had any choices here Cruise was you. Todd has had these things thrust upon him and while I would hope he could get beyond it for the sake of your family...it doesn't seem as though he is capable of doing so.
You have a choice to make again. So does Todd. How long are you two willing to live in a loveless and barren marriage? Is there anything worth hanging on to at this point? You can set a boundary for yourself that you will not live like this any longer. Todd may be content to live in the shell that remained after the affair. You do not have to do so. Make a choice and move forward....
Your belief that he could forgive you if he decided to do so is an anchor weighing you down right now. It is time for action....words from either of you will no longer suffice. Decide to live as a H & W recovering their M...or decide to move on.
It really is time...don't you think?
Graplin and Cruise...I think Todd answered those questions quite clearly in the past. I believe he has said that he feels he would be betraying his core values to just forgive and move past what Cruise has done.
I believe the only thing that has kept him in the marriage this long is his love for his family. Even though he resents having his choices stolen from him...he obviously still loves his family. There is no easy way to reconcile this issue. Fraud is the word that comes to mind here...had Todd been given the truth years ago would he have still chosen to stay with Cruise and have children. I think the answer is most likely "no" and that understandably creates ill feelings. BUT, you can't hold on to them forever. Todd needs to [censored] or get off the pot.
Sorry if I was not clear on my response I do apologize. I did not mean that people should never forgive each other. To be married I think that you have to forgive one another or it will not last very long. In my marriage I did forgive my wife always, however, I told her I would not stay married if she slept with another man.
That was my boundary. She knew in no uncertain terms that it would end us if she did that. I also asked her that I would rather she be honest with me and then we can divorce and she can be with someone else. I never got the memo though and she wanted to have both my money and another guy.
My wife had her reasons for what she did. I really don’t care what they are. All I asked was that under no circumstances does she sleep with another guy. Well she did so I just didn’t want to be married anymore.
So all I am saying that if a spouse cheats no matter what the reason they should expect that their spouse may have that boundary. I would forgive anything else but I will never forgive that. It may be due to my upbringing and I had so many people abuse me and let me down and desert me. When I was kid I could do nothing about it but I can now.
I will never forgive her for that and if I get married again someday that will still be my iron clad boundary. I am a very forgiving person but I will never forgive that it is not in me. Too me it would be like asking me to forgive someone for abusing one of my children. I just don’t have it in me to forgive such an act.
Maybe Todd is like me I don’t know. But in my case I did not leave her hanging on I knew I would never forgive her deceit. I think he needs to either forgive or move on. Just my humble opinion.
I think your boundary is very healthy and clear. I think you have a good recipe for success with the right person.
"Todd needs to [censored] or get off the pot." This is kind of how I feel. We have had 4 years to make some progress and although he would probably disagree with this, I feel we haven't mostly due to where he is. I fight with myself daily because I know that he is a good man that has been wronged however because my values and core are different I have a hard time understanding things.
I know MEDC says to move on and give up. I just can't do that. There is something in me that can't. I wish I knew what it was but I am not sure. I feel like I will wonder for the rest of my life if we could have made it if I leave. I would question myself as to whether or not I did enough.
I completely understand that we are where we are mostly due to what I did.
I had enough:
I certainly hope that you never do something in your life that requires forgiveness. Also, it is incredibly sad to me that you will leave your life with that hanging over you. Just my thought.
Gotta go for now,
Cruise
Cruise,
You can move on without giving up. For example, Plan B removes you from a hurtful situation while you are still have feelings of love for the person.
If you wait until you are ready to give up then the M probably will be toast. But if you remove yourself from this hurtful situation, it will give Todd an idea that you feel you have done all you can and that the ball is in his court. With him holding the ball, he's bound to do something. Even if it is to choose to D. I know that's not what you want, but my guess is that it will be better than where you're at now huh?
Something like Plan B isn't closing the door on the M. But it will help you decide whether or not Todd can make that big step toward recovery.
Blessings.
S&C
Where exactly do I find information on what plan B is and how to implement it???
Does plan B involve one of us moving out?? We have discussed this before but decided it probably would not be best. It's kind of like we discussed the other night in thinking... should we divide up our finances so that if we get a D then we will sort of have an idea where each other is financially. We struggled with the idea that it could be a self fulfilling prophecy. I proposed that maybe it was the reason one of us wasn't seeking a D. At this point we decided to keep things as is. We have sort of thought the moving out bit would also be like a self fulfilling prophecy. That is why it hasn't happened as of yet. How does seperating affect children??? I know there isn't a definite answer to that but what are people's thoughts???
Cruise
Personally, I think seperating WOULD be good for you two. Yes, it will be hard on the kids, but you two living like this is no picinic either. It would give you two some space and time to see what it is you do want. It may be the push he needs to actually start recovering the marriage. or it could be the push he needs to divorce. But, something drastic needs to happen.
not2fun
Cruise,
Here's a link to read about Plan A & Plan B. Keep in mind why Dr. Harley uses it. This is not your exact situation, but part of the idea is to protect the love you have for your S while they come out of the fog. They the opportunity to miss the spouse the love so much (that you would have displayed in Plan A); figure out that they really want their spouse and not whatever it is they ended up choosing and ask to come back. The person implementing Plan B sets boundaries in place for the WS to agree to and adhere to in order for them to be recieved back into the M.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.htmlDoes plan B involve one of us moving out?? We have discussed this before but decided it probably would not be best. It's kind of like we discussed the other night in thinking... should we divide up our finances so that if we get a D then we will sort of have an idea where each other is financially. We struggled with the idea that it could be a self fulfilling prophecy. I proposed that maybe it was the reason one of us wasn't seeking a D. At this point we decided to keep things as is. We have sort of thought the moving out bit would also be like a self fulfilling prophecy. That is why it hasn't happened as of yet. How does seperating affect children??? I know there isn't a definite answer to that but what are people's thoughts???
Sometimes someone will have to move out. sometimes the spouse is asked to leave and does; sometimes they don't and the one asking to leave does. But there is always a Plan B letter written stating clearly what you are choosing, why you're choosing it and the details on how
they can fix it.
Plan B is counter-intuitive. Most people think they will drive the spouse away. According to Dr. Harley, that is rarely the case.
One way to see if Plan B might work for you is to call up Steve or Jen and tell them your sit and ask about it. They can help you create a plan. They are a bit pricey, but divorce is much pricier.
If one of you really doesn't want to remain married, then yes Plan B could very well be a Self Fulfilling Prophecy. But in the order you would rather have it would you rather be married and in love, keep the M the way it is or divorce and be able to move on with your life?
I think you said it yourself
I know that if there is any chance that he could get through to the other side of this then I would stay and work as hard as I needed too. If not, then I need to get out so I don't die in the meantime. I don't want the children to grow up thinking that this is what marriage looks like because if they do, it would be gravely wrong. I want more for them then that and I know Todd does too!
Those are my thoughts.
S&C
Just my opinion, but I think staying together is always better for the kids, barring abuse or substance abuse.
Are you working outside the home now? Do you have enough time to work and do everything your kids need?
I am a kindergarten teacher. Before the children entered kindergarten I worked a part-time pre-k job. The hours were much shorter and it was only 4 days a week. When they went to kinder I went back full time. It nearly ate my lunch. It's been several years now but working full time makes it hard to get a lot of things done. The kids come to school with me until middle school (one more year for DD and 2 for the twins). That does add a lot of stress to life. Homework, housework, school work not to mention the kids and then finding time for Todd can be hard. Many times I feel like I can't do any of it well. I guess the answer to your question is...no I really don't have enough time to get things done for the children in the manner in which they should be done. Sometimes I feel like I get lost in all of it trying to do everything and also have a very stressed relationship with Todd.
Why do you ask??
Cruise
steadfast and committed,
Thanks for sending the link. I actually found it just after your last post. I have not had time to read it in depth but will do so tomorrow! I am off to bed seeing as I need to be up at 5:15 for work!! Ugh!!!
Thanks for your thoughts and I will let you know what I think tomorrow!
Cruise
But, something drastic needs to happen.
not2fun
I agree!!
Cruise
I just asked because I raised my 2 sons alone for the first 12 years, and it wasn't easy. I'm like you - I felt like I didn't do my best anywhere - not at work, not with my sons...... There just wasn't enough time in the day.
I've seen your posts and Todd's over the past 4 years and here is what I think. You should both be counseling with the Harley's.
Your's is a sticky situation, where you both "seem" to want a successful marriage, but can't seem to find the pathway to get to that point.
Who's fault is it? Well, that doesn't seem to be clear from what I've read here.
I think it's important that both of you talk with the Harley's and let them evaluate your sitch, and help you find solutions to the roadblocks in your marriage. Four years of recovery with questionable progress not matching up to either party's expectations is plenty, IMHO.
If Todd's not capable of forgiving today, maybe the Harley's can find a key to unlock that process. Maybe he can point out something cruise could do better, or differently?
I think before you spend more fruitless time searching for recovery, you invest in a professional map to help you find your way.
Best wishes,
sd
"Todd needs to [censored] or get off the pot." This is kind of how I feel. We have had 4 years to make some progress and although he would probably disagree with this, I feel we haven't mostly due to where he is. I fight with myself daily because I know that he is a good man that has been wronged however because my values and core are different I have a hard time understanding things.
I know MEDC says to move on and give up. I just can't do that. There is something in me that can't. I wish I knew what it was but I am not sure. I feel like I will wonder for the rest of my life if we could have made it if I leave. I would question myself as to whether or not I did enough.
I completely understand that we are where we are mostly due to what I did.
Cruise - I'm going to take one more stab at this.
Here is, imho, the key issue here: Are you both born again believers?
If the answer is no, then MEDC is right in what he has been saying.
If the answer is yes, then just what are your and Todd's "core values" and what has God forgiven each of you? Remember, also with respect to what MEDC said, God commands us to forgive a repentant sinner. God does not command a Betrayed Spouse to continue in a marriage, but if he/she does, then God also has commands to husbands and wives that they are to follow in humble submission to God's will. This has to do with the greatest commandment "love the Lord with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."
So the "issue" or the "question" for a believer is fairly simple and needs to be thought about, examined, and answered by each individual: what is more important than humbly obeying God's commands?
With regard to Plan B, plan B is not "available" to you. It is for Todd, as the Betrayed Spouse and is intended to end an affair while preserving what remaining love for a WS there might be. You have already "abandoned" Todd once with the affair and I am fairly certain that Todd would view a separation and/or "Plan B" inititated by you as just another abandonment and he would end the marriage at that time.
Foevers hers-
Yes we are both believing Christians, however todd has not been to church in over three years. I still think that he
is still much of a believer but just can't seem to find his way out and back to church (IMHO). As far as the plan B, I know you are right in the thoughts that it would not work the way it is supposed to for a few reasons:
1- yes, I don't biblically have the right to leave (although I have the choice and would have to handle it on judgement day)
2-Just before d-day I took the children and left. Looking back that was the wrong decision but I didn't know what else to do at the time.
3- I don't want to leave!!
Shattered Dreams wrote:
"I think before you spend more fruitless time searching for recovery, you invest in a professional map to help you find your way."
You are right but we have spent mucho money on a MC that we both really trust and like and he basically told us (not in so many words) that there was not really anything else he could do for us until Todd got to a different point. (at least that is how I remember it) Our MC is VERY reputable and is top notch in the field. He is a no mess around kind of guy which is what we both need. We have done counseling together and apart at different times. We both haven't been in about a year or so! I think Todd went once about 6 months ago.
I would love a plan. The Harley's don't really know our situation and I feel like it would take forever to get them up to speed. I don't know, they are of course the "experts" in this field and I'm sure they have seen situations like ours before.
Thanks for your advice,
Cruise
Foevers hers-
Yes we are both believing Christians, however todd has not been to church in over three years. I still think that he
is still much of a believer but just can't seem to find his way out and back to church (IMHO).
Cruise - I understand, as I always have. The "question" is not really one BEING a believer, it is one of humble submission to God, of one of conforming one's own life to more and more "Christ-likeness."
Could it be that Todd is still very angry with God for "allowing" this to have happened? I know I was at one point and until I could deal with that issue, the rest was "on hold."
Not being in church is just one indication, since we (believers) are commanded by God "not to forsake the gathering together of the saints." It is also why our MC made it mandatory that my wife and I must be in church every week. I can explain the reasoning for that sometime if you'd like.
Let's face it, Todd HAS been sinned against in about the most painful way that one spouse can do to another. But the "reality" is that in the "hierarchy" of who has been sinned against, it is always God Himself who has been sinned against first and foremost, by all of us.
Why should God forgive Todd of his sins, let alone why should God forgive you of your sins or me of my sins?
My sins put His Son on the cross. My sins made Jesus, who had committed no sin, bear the awful pain of separation from the Father. How great was Jesus' torment because of my sins? How can I, who has been forgiven an unpayably huge debt owed to God, do less for another who might owe me a huge debt too?
Cruise, I honestly don't think your marriage can be healed until Todd is ready to face God with all his anger and hurt. Will you be patient enough to give Todd the time that he needs, the time that God knows he needs, to start rebuilding his relationship with God? I know that 4 years seems like a long time, and to us mere mortals it is a long time. But it's not a long time on the scale of our lifetime, let alone on the scale of eternity.
God bless.
This is an e-mail I got from todd this morning with this link attached: (todd, I hope this is ok to share <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)
Todd writes:I don’t know if this helps your understanding any more, or if you are just tired of hearing it, but read this…
This is
Being betrayed was worse than....
#3413518 - 03/05/08 10:51 PM
*Dealing with childhood molestation.
*Having my children molested by other children - family members.
*Losing my grandmother.
*The death of our little boy at 20 weeks, and having to bury him in a coffin that was ridiculously large for him, but it was the smallest they had.
~~~This thread inspired by Lady Clueless, who has suffered even more, yet for her also the infidelity was still far worse.
If this is how todd feels, how can he ever recover from this???
Cruise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
cruise.....if after all this time, almost four years, you are just realizing this is how a bs feels....you have some learning to do. for me it was worse than a rape....and i chose to stay with the perpatraitor. the pain is astounding. how are you surprised he feels like this? maybe he feels like this because he also feels you don't understand it.
If this is how todd feels, how can he ever recover from this???
Cruise, are you asking "on his own" or "with God?"
There is a difference you know, especially for believers.
God bless.
Nikko,
I am sure that I don't understand a 100th of what you all are feeling and what you are going through. How can I??? It is totally impossible. I am however trying the best that I can.
I did not intend to make you (or any other BS)feel like what Neak was feeling was worse than any other BS, I was only commenting on the fact that if this is how these BS's feel then is it possible for recovery???
That's all...
I am truly sorry if I offended you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Cruise
first off you didnt offend me. it kinda shocked me that after this long on mb's you didnt understand or "get" this. this is huge. i bet your husband also feels like you dont get this. i also bet that if you asked him if he thinks you "get" it...you may be surprised by his answer. i can tell you as a bs, we dont truelly start to heal until we think our ws's "get" it. this may be your problem in not moving foward.
how can he forgive when he feels you dont get the tru magnitude of what you have done? if i felt my hubby didnt get it i can guarantee you i would be on guard 24/7 and very prickly.
POP! (the sound of nikko hitting the nail on the head)
Cruise,
OK let’s not call it Plan B. Let’s call it a plan to protect the love you still have for Todd, while he decides what to do.
Here’s what I’ve seen and believe to understand.
Pre-A It seemed Todd did pretty much what he wanted to without much regard to your feelings. Friends would come over watch some TV, eat pizza. You asked him to clean up after himself. He would say something offending to you and/or still leave all the mess for you to clean up. You feel worthless and unloved by Todd. This did not give you justification to have an A.
You go a cruise w/ your mother and have an affair with a seasoned predator on board ship. He knows how to identify and woo a vulnerable young woman. You choose to have an affair, which everyone that has been betrayed says is worse than “anything”. I agree, you have hurt him in the worst possible way.
It happens 11 years ago. You hid it four 7 years. You had children. BS’s will also say that continued deception is the worst part of an A. I will agree with that
4 years ago was D-Day.
Since then, you have said and I think Todd has agreed that you have been accountable, you have no desire to be with anyone else but Todd, you are doing your best to meet Todd’s needs. You have been open and honest with Todd, you’ve been doing everything you can to help Todd heal and recover.
Todd has been very hurt. Todd has a choice to make. It is no different than the choice he had to make 4 years ago. Choose to forgive and move to recovery; or to choose not to forgive and divorce. His choice has been the third choose not to forgive and stay in the relationship, knowing how much it hurts you. He knows it hurts you because you have told him it hurts you.
Todd has been knowingly hurting you for the past 4 years and it is wearing on the resolve you have to do what you can to help restore the M.
The MC/IC has told the both of you that you (Cruise) have done all you can, and the ball is in Todd’s court. Todd is wrestling with his core beliefs. Either they are right or they are wrong. If they are right, then he needs to stick by them and divorce you. If they are wrong, then he has to readjust those beliefs to allow for forgiving you.
Even now he is making a choice. That choice is that his core beliefs say that there is no room for forgiveness for you. If there was; he would have forgiven you already. He hasn’t, and right now that seems to work for him. He has control over you.
After 4 years of unforgiveness, you have realized, that “Something has to change”. Well then, my question to you is “Or what?” If something doesn’t change what will happen? You feel your resolve is wavering. Once your resolve is gone, will your love for Todd be gone? If that is gone, what is there to hang onto that will give you hope to save your M?
The ball has been in Todd’s court for a while now. People will say that a good indicator of what someone will do in the future is to look at what they have been doing in the past. If Todd can’t or won’t do anything, then you need to. Someone needs to get the cart rolling again. If not, your love bank will just keep dwindling like a checking account that takes out service fees regardless of activity and you will end up at zero. Or you can take what love you have and protect it while Todd makes his choice. He will be forced to either come after you or let you go.
Todd may think you are abandoning him. But if you tell him plainly and clearly that you love him and you need to protect the love you still have for him and that is why you are removing yourself from the pain, then his POV will be based on something other than facts.
BTW – I’m not disagreeing with FH. He’s giving you wise advise as Christians. Humble submission to God’s will and Todd can heal from this. On his own, he will not. Same goes for you.
Still praying for you two.
Nikko,
Everyone says that unless you've been betrayed, you never know what it's like. I don't want to offend, but unless your H has been betrayed, he is still in the same boat as Cruise. I believe Cruise understands that she has caused immense hurt to Todd. I think her question was more along the lines of "How can someone get through it after being hurt like that?". And FH has provided the answer; God!
Blessings
S&C
Todd,
There is only one thing that will allow her to completely understand how you feel. You know what that is. Either you can educate her on how it feels, or you can accept the fact that she will never really know and forgive her, or you can not accept it and either divorce her or continue to live in the he!! you two live in. The ball is still in your court, it's your decision to make.
BTW - I thought it was about your core beliefs, not whether or not Cruise "got it" regarding how you feel.
If it's about her "getting it" re-read the first paragraph.
S&C
s&c --
It is about my core beliefs AND cruise neither "gets it" nor attempts serious effort to do so. If cruise "got it" I would still be left struggling with my core beliefs. If I could reconcile my core beliefs with this reality, I would still be left with cruise not "getting it."
I almost laughed out loud at the idea of "educating" her, as any of my attempts to educate her about pretty much any topic over the entire course of our M has been met with disdain.
POP! (the sound of nikko hitting the nail on the head)
Ok Cruise, don't ignore or invalidate this. This is a key piece of information.
Todd...you have been struggling with this "core belief" thing for a long time. It has become a crutch that enables you to keep your wife at arms length. We talked about it before...a couple years ago. If you haven't resolved the core beliefs in a way that allow you to move forward...what makes you think you ever will?
I would still be left with cruise not "getting it."
You will always be left wanting if you hope for a WS to "get" the pain they caused. A WS can not "get it" any more than a deaf person can "get" the music of Bach. So you need to either accept that they won't "get it" and move on, or keep holding it against them because they don't "get it". One option gives you a way to salvage the marriage, the other guarantees that it will eventually crumble.
I almost laughed out loud at the idea of "educating" her, as any of my attempts to educate her about pretty much any topic over the entire course of our M has been met with disdain.
And Harley will tell you that "educating" your spouse is usually a Lovebuster.
It is obviously your choice as to whether you want to forgive or not. But remember, not making a decision
is making a decision.
AGG
I almost laughed out loud at the idea of "educating" her, as any of my attempts to educate her about pretty much any topic over the entire course of our M has been met with disdain.
I think these are very strong words. any topic, entire M, disdain??? I have????
I am not quite sure where to go with this.
Enlightened:
Ok Cruise, don't ignore or invalidate this. This is a key piece of information.
I understand this is key information. I am just not sure what to do with it. Obviously I have not done a good job in this department if my H laughs out loud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
Cruise
Todd,
In 4 years, have you been able to reconcile with your core beliefs?
And if you are waiting for Cruise to fully and completely understand how you feel, it will not happen unless you have your own affair and throw it in her face. Most WS's don't know how it feels because it hasn't happened to them.
So, if you will not/can not reconcile with your core beliefs and she will never fully understand how you feel, why then do you keep her in limbo? All it is doing torturing her and removing the love she still has for you.
You are in the driver's seat. You have full control over what happens next. What are you going to do?
I almost laughed out loud at the idea of "educating" her, as any of my attempts to educate her about pretty much any topic over the entire course of our M has been met with disdain.
She seems to have learned a few things, She loves you, she's learned what to do to help restore her M. The MC seems to testify to that. So she can, and seems willing to learn.
Regardless, even if she is the way you say, the ball is still i your court. What are you going to do?
S&C
I said:
I am sure that I don't understand a 100th of what you all are feeling and what you are going through. How can I??? It is totally impossible. I am however trying the best that I can.
IMHO a WS can never "get" the full impact of what they have done and how the WS feels:
Here's an analogy: When todd and I were trying all those years to have a baby, many people came to me and had stories to share and situations that they have been through. Some would say they knew what I was going through...BULL!!! I don't believe anyone understood what I was going through or feeling. We all handle stress and crisis' differently!!!
I believe there is NO possible way for a BS to really have ANY possible idea about what the BS is feeling and the demons they are dealing with as a result of the betrayal. IMHO, any WS that says they do is fooling themselves. Unfortunately, I think the only way for a WS can completely understand, is to live through it for themselves!!
I guess what I am trying to say is, I get the feeling that some of you think there is something that I have been missing for the last 4 years and because I don't "get" it that I have not put any effort into this M!! That really bothers me!
Cruise
I guess what I am trying to say is, I get the feeling that some of you think there is something that I have been missing for the last 4 years and because I don't "get" it that I have not put any effort into this M!! That really bothers me!
Cruise
I hope you don't include me in that group. I intended to state just the opposite, that there is no way for anyone to know how anything feels without being in their shoes. Therefore, it is futile for a BS to refuse moving on until the WS "gets it", it just maintains the state of limbo.
I believe that at some point the BS needs to make a choice and act upon it, instead of holding the WS's inability to "get it" as a weapon.
AGG
Perhaps getting it is not an accurate way of putting it. Perhaps simply acknowledging or validating the intense pain caused, and understanding that everyone heals at their own pace.
When I hear her say to the effect of having 4 years, either way, his complaint that she doesn't get it after 4 years or her complaint that he hasn't healed indicates that they have an idea of how long things SHOULD take.
Frankly, they are both out to lunch if they believe that imposing their personal time frame on the other is a winning strategy.
The hurt never goes away. The scar is always there. It may hurt less and less each day. On the other hand, that scar may be more sensitive to new injuries.
Todd, can you give us an example of Cruises behavior that you see as "disdain"? maybe that would help us understand.
i agree this is in Todd's court.
Todd, what are you doing to help yourself either get to a place of acceptance and forgiveness or to the decision of divorce? are you in IC?
Are you happy with the marriage as is even though cruise is unhappy?
the hurt will never go away, i agree to that.
however, a marriage can recover. and there should be point in time when both spouses are willing to put in 100% effort in order to recover or more forward with a divorce. i don't understand why that cannot happen for them.
the hurt will never go away, i agree to that.
I agree with this statement too!
however, a marriage can recover. and there should be point in time when both spouses are willing to put in 100% effort in order to recover or more forward with a divorce. i don't understand why that cannot happen for them.
I think this is the key- "both spouses"
Cruise
The thing is, you don't get the set the time frame for his healing, and he doesn't get to set the time frame for your understanding, etc.
All or he can control is how long you are willing to keep at your particular parts.
It is about my core beliefs AND cruise neither "gets it" nor attempts serious effort to do so. If cruise "got it" I would still be left struggling with my core beliefs. If I could reconcile my core beliefs with this reality,
Okay Todd, then isn't it about time to stop talking in "general" terms, i.e. "core beliefs," and LIST precisely what those core beliefs are to you and your "problem" with each of them as they pertain to your recovery of your marriage?
No one can offer any potential help in this area if they don't know specifically what you are meaning when you lump them together in that general term, wouldn't you agree?
But is also patently obvious that they ARE the stumbling blocks, the "walls" if you will, that you need answers to in order to begin removing them and allowing recovery to proceed. Are you open to discussing them, or if not with me, at least with others on MB who would like nothing better than to help you and Cruise to reach a Recovered Marriage?
God bless.
Finally Learning-
May I ask you some personal questions seeing that you also are a FWW??
-Where is your R with H now?
-I did not see any dates on your posts. Could you give me some dates. Like d-day mostly.
-What have you learned about yourself through all of this?
-Has your H forgiven you?
-Have you forgiven yourself?
If you are not comfortable answering these, I understand. I am thinking that I might learn a lot from you if you are farther out or in a different place then we are.
Thanks,
Cruise
Four years is plenty of time to decide whether you want to begin the process of recovery.
TA
I was re-reading this thread and this jumped out at me. It has been said here that no one has the right to determine how long is enough for someone else to recover from an A. I get that, however, I look at this particular statement and it occurs to me again, that what I am asking of todd is to make the decision to choose to "begin the healing process" not to be fully recovered. I think sometimes some here think that I am frustrated because he isn't healed yet. Quite the contrary, I am frustrated because he won't commit to even beginning the process.
Cruise
You know I can't believe some of what I am reading here.
I do think the hurt can go away - it has for me.
I think I have seen the first inkling of where Todd is at here.
I know I was frustrated for the longest time before I knew my wife really GOT IT.
A big part of recognising that was in her posts and emails to other WW's that just blew me away and really demonstrated she did get it.
Apart from telling Todd you "get it" Cruise, what have you actually DONE?
But even to hint that he should have started or decided or whatever is still you enforcing your timeline on him, right?
Look, I'm not saying you have to be happy with it. But is it working for you to determine the rate he approaches this?
The questions about his spelling out what "getting" entails in concrete terms is a very valid question.
Four years is plenty of time to decide whether you want to begin the process of recovery.
TA
I was re-reading this thread and this jumped out at me. It has been said here that no one has the right to determine how long is enough for someone else to recover from an A. I get that, however, I look at this particular statement and it occurs to me again, that what I am asking of todd is to make the decision to choose to "begin the healing process" not to be fully recovered. I think sometimes some here think that I am frustrated because he isn't healed yet. Quite the contrary, I am frustrated because he won't commit to even beginning the process.
Cruise
after what i posted todd jumped in.....he gave you the answer of what he needs. he needs to feel you fully understand that you get what you did to him and your family.
I AM NOT SAYING YOU HAVENT TRIED.(please re-read what i just wrote....) i am saying some how you missed the mark. what jumped out to me was your surprise at comparing this to what we bs's have. your question of "if" its that bad how can he ever forgive. IF?????? cruise, maybe you never will understand the pain and i pray you dont, but to use the word if in that statement just really stabbed at me. it may be simple things like that that also stab at todd.
he can forgive. we all can.
todd.....type out here what exactly you want and need from her. cause she doesnt know. if she is actively trying to learn what you need is way more than most get...especially after 4 yrs of limbo. don't make me swing that hammer your way...lol
Todd,
If there were no children would you still be married to cruise?
your question of "if" its that bad how can he ever forgive. IF?????? cruise, maybe you never will understand the pain and i pray you dont, but to use the word if in that statement just really stabbed at me. it may be simple things like that that also stab at todd.
Every person feels things differently. I used the word "if" because I did not make the assumption that every BS feels this way. (referring to the post that todd shared)I was merely stating that if this is truly how he feels (when possible other BS's don't) then can he recover??
I need to be more careful in my choice of words. Obviously some (todd does this too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) pick apart words and miss what I am trying to say! Todd was trying to help me understand better where he is and I just needed to ask the question.
Cruise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
BK,
Rather than have her rehash all 4 years of what she and Todd have both done, maybe you might want to go back and read up on it in their previous posts.
You'll get a better idea from there than to have her try to condense it all. You'll also get Todd's POV as well.
S&C
I have read their posts for years and posted to them as well.
Whatever Cruise is doing is clearly not what Todd needs. This was an interesting revelation here today.
BK,
Then you know what has been done by both sides and what their MC has said. Who, as Todd has told us, "knows more about their situation than any of us do."
BTW - a M involves 2 people; in order for it to really recover BOTH of them need to choose to heal and make efforts to do so.
S&C
S&C I'm not sure why you feel the need to lecture me on this situation.
I think Todd AND Cruise need to carefully consider what Todd has actually said on this thread today.
BTW - a M involves 2 people; in order for it to really recover BOTH of them need to choose to heal and make efforts to do so.
That's true...but ONE can screw it up all by themself.
cruise, i am MORE than happy to answer your questions. look for another post from me either tonight or first thing in the morning. i don't know if you know this but i have watched you two throughout the years, and i can identify with you.
regarding my history, click on my name to get the details. it's not pretty <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
cruise, i've been talking to you in my head all last night and now this morning. i do have much to say, but i cant until i get time to myself. i'm thinking that will be about 1pm today! just wanted you to know.
Hi Cruise,
so the more i think the more i find myself wanting to say!!! i was originally hesitating, i get so tired of being blasted. but that is a dumb thing to think about if my words can be of any help.
let me start out say something...
my marriage is not perfect nor a poster child for MB. DH knows about the book His Need, Her Needs as well as Surviving an Affair but choose not to read them. he knows about the website, knows i still post some, but that is it. although i went to IC, we never went to MC since my confession. I would not call us recovered BUT our marriage is working enough on some level that we are reasonable happy.
what i write here is 100% my perspective, the only one i can give you. i will at times tell you what my DH has directly said to me as well as what i just believe to be true.
so now lets break things down into different topics.
my next post will be on "getting it"
ya know i think before i post my thoughts on getting it, I should answer your direct questions first:
-Where is your R with H now? I guess i covered that to some extent. i ask him at times is he happy, he says yes. do i feel extremly close to him? no. do i feel reasonable close to him? yes. we have our problems, we are so much better at talking about them. as i post more, i think you will get a better picture of us.
-I did not see any dates on your posts. Could you give me some dates. Like d-day mostly. hopefully you clicked on my name and saw my history. so second and last d-day was 10/2004.
-What have you learned about yourself through all of this?
not sure i can answer that one very quickly. i had LOTS of issues!!! i guess i mostly learned just how emotionally immature i have been the majority of my life (i am 44). possible the best lesson i have learned is to not let my emotions rule my behavior. i have a very wide range of emotions (i'm italian!). the other most important thing i have learned is that commitment means forever! i grew up with too many cases of divorce, it was too common for me. i was able to get to a spot where divorce was something i really wanted to do. sometimes i worry that i might get to that spot again once the kids are grown, if DH and I don't end up growing closer to each other. but i only worry about that on bad days. normal days, like today, i am very strong on the concept i am here till death. maybe that is a terrible thing to say, that sometimes i see myself getting back to thinking divorce would be the right thing to do. but i'm being 100% honest with you. sometimes i do think of divorce down the road. BUT that is a minority of the time and i do believe the % is shrinking. so that is a good thing.
-Has your H forgiven you? when ever that is spoken about (and it has not been spoken about much) he will say yes then very quickly follow it up with the fact that he has not forgotten. i have gotten to a point where i just don't focus on that. i do my best and that is all i can do. i used to want to hear the words. (ok, and typing that just made me cry, so i guess i still would like to hear the words) i remember so clearly the day RIF changed his signature to read "Her: forgiven". i guess my reaction to what i am typing right now means i don't really believe he has totally forgiven me. i suppose if he has said he does, i should believe him, but i think i need to hear it with more emotion and without the followup comment in order to truely have those words hit home in the way i would like them to. (i would bet that if he read what i just wrote, he would be surprised.) but i do believe he is doing his best and so i accept it.
-Have you forgiven yourself?
another tough one!! another one that bring major tears so i guess not enough to be able to answer with a plain "Yes, i have".
but i think i have gotten better at not beating myself up. i do acknoweldge that i have grown.
maybe what DH says is exactly right on the money, maybe i have kinda forgiven myself but being unable to forget the pain of self-disapointment, and of intense regret of the pain i have caused him is still very sharp.
i am hoping time will help.
ok, so now my next post will be about "getting it" except i am late for something now so i'll have to post later, sorry!!
I was merely stating that if this is truly how he feels (when possible other BS's don't)
Cruise, it seems obvious to me why your BH is not recovering.
It's because you clearly do not grasp what you've really done to him.
No BS ever recovers unless and until they feel certain the WS KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS the torment they put their BS through by having an affair.
That's because if the WS doesn't understand it, what's to stop them from doing it again once the BS has shown they can forgive it? MANY HAVE DONE IT AGAIN FOR EXACTLY THAT REASON - "She/he got over it once. She/he took me back. It must not have been that big a deal, so I thought she/he could get over it again."
Many BS greatly fear forgiving the WS for exactly that reason. It is NOT safe to forgive a WS unless and until they have shown they Get It, and statements like your quote clearly show that even though you are trying, you still do not really Get It.
And to address the quote above - yes, it's possible other BSs don't feel the way your BH feels. They feel EVEN WORSE. They're the ones who leave, divorce and never look back.
It's hard to believe that you honestly think other BSs just aren't so upset by their spouses having an affair, and you can't understand why yours is.
I admire you for being here, Cruise, but the above paragraph is why your BH never feels any better.
You can trust me on that.
Mulan
i don't know but when i read the stmt quoated about i think more along that lines that Cruise is wondering why todd does not choose to divorce.
i don't think she doubts what she has done has caused him intense pain.
mulan, is that what you think the line you quoted is saying? that she does not understand the level of intensity of his pain?
i think it might actually be the opposite, given that pain is still so intense after this much time, why doesn't he choose to leave.
i can relate to what Cruise is saying, does that mean i don't get it either?
what i wish Todd would do is to be very specific about what actions/words cause him to have the judgement of Cruise that he has. i mean, after all, he is judging her. she is saying one thing, "yes Todd, i get it, i know what i did was terribly hurtful" and she follows it up with remorse and it certainly seems her actions show her remorse. todd has said she is doing all she can. so why is he judging her so harshly??
does that make any sense?
we all say words mean nothing, it's actions that count. and yet here is someone being told you are doing all the right actions and yet your words make me decide you do not "get it"
i'm sorry i can't post more right now. but i will be back eventually
FLT2H,
I have read your posts and TRULY appreciate your thoughtfulness and sincerity. Todd and I are going to watch a movie and chill for a little while. I will post to you tomorrow!!!
Mulan,
FLT2H is right (I believe) about the things that I am trying to say about todd's pain and the extent of what I have put him through. I will also write more about that tomorrow!!
Till then,
Cruise
hey cruise..please tell todd i am still waiting for an answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hey Cruise, that sounds like a wonderful idea. I hope you both have a good evening. i'll post more myself tommorow too.
Mulan,
You posted this to Cruise;
It's hard to believe that you honestly think other BSs just aren't so upset by their spouses having an affair, and you can't understand why yours is.
So why would you believe it? Did you read her reply when she was questioned on that post?
And I ask this only because I can't remember every person that has posted to Todd and Cruise, but have you been following this thread for the past four years? If you have, I fail to understand how you can think she feels like that.
Cruise has been busting her tail coming here, asking for help, going to MC and trying to learn all she can to help Todd and recover her M.
FLT2H,
Thank you for spending you time with Cruise. She always seems to be real eager to learn more. Any help you can give is great.
Blessings.
S&C
****edited to correct who I needed to respond to****
S&C---that wasnt me. please go check.
and for the record...yes i know what cruise has been going through and doing on here. i think she is really trying. i wish i had gotten 1/100th of what she has done outta my husband. what i am trying to figure out is how she missed the mark with todd and what he wants. i asked him directly to answer that.
somehow it seems he feels like she doesnt get it, if i understood him, and it is not for me, or you, or even cruise to decide for him. which is why i am waiting to hear from him. he will never feel safe until HE feels she gets it. that is on him.....
Sorry nikko,
My bad. I meant to respond to Mulan. Thanks for letting me know.
somehow it seems he feels like she doesnt get it, if i understood him, and it is not for me, or you, or even cruise to decide for him. which is why i am waiting to hear from him. he will never feel safe until HE feels she gets it. that is on him.....
But what is a FWS supposed to do when they try and try and try but the BS can't/won't even decide if they want to work on the M?
We keep saying that no one can make someone do something, Cruise cannot make Todd choose to recover, so is she, after 4 years just supposed to allow Todd to hang this over her and hurt her with it? If she is, then how long should she be punished for it?
This question isn't pointed at you nikko, I'm throwing it out there for the general population to consider.
Blessings.
S&C
Hi,
I am still here and reading. My brother and 4 kids are in town and we (the kids and I)have been spending time with them. Thanks for all of your comments and support.
Nikko, I will call todd and let him know that you are waiting for a response. He hurt his eye last night so I don't know if he will be much in the mood to write just yet!
I'll keep checking in and will respond as soon as I can.
Thanks,
Cruise
Cruise, I'm sorry for making you wait. Today has been a tough day. i tried writing some this morning but did not get out what i wanted to say. then i let myself get distracted.
in the afternoon, i had a visit with my sister who is just out of a 22 day stay in the hospital due to mental illness. it was a hard visit.
thankfully, DH and I went to play racquetball, that was very helpful.
right now i'm getting ready to go out for the evening. we are going to a neighbors house to watch Across the Universe (be sure to see it if you have not yet, it's GREAT!! i think i have mentioned that in a few threads lately)
enjoy your company and i hope Todd's eye gets to feeling better soon.
anyway, i wanted you to know i'm here. i suspect the next chance to post anything deep won't be till tommorow.
I look forward to tomorrow!!
Nikko, I told todd you were waiting for a reponse but I guess he wasn't feeling up to it. Maybe tomorrow!
Cruise
Hi Cruise and Good Morning. I hope the rest of your day yesterday was good.
ok, so this post will be on "getting it".
I think those words are really hard to define and can be different for each person. That's what makes it tough for us to help you like we would like to.
From what I have read of Todd's posts, the key here is understanding. That does not mean agree with, but understand.
Accept Todd's description of what he is saying as is. Whatever he is saying, listen to, take it into your heart and understand that is his reality.
I did learn to tred softly when DH was talking. To NOT ask questions at the time he was sharing anything. I think asking questions can make the person sharing feel like you are debating them or trying to change their mind. Even if that is not what you are trying to do.
You may in fact be doing the exact opposite, trying to understand better by asking those quesitons but i think it is counter-productive.
So I just listened and really took his words into my heart and gave myself time to reflect on all he was saying.
If I still had questions later, I would find another time to ask them.
I think at act of sharing, can make some feel vunderable. I know I do. In fact that is why i have a harder time posting these days. I'm sharing pieces of myself with EVERYONE on this board and these days some people don't see that as a gift. I have to remind myself that is their problem, not mine.
So I challange you to see Todd's acts of sharing, WHATEVER HE IS SHARING, as gifts. Learn to look for his gift of sharing, when he is, just listen to him and take it in.
I got into the habit of saying to my BH, thanks for sharing. It would be the only response I would make. It allowed both him AND I to see the act of sharing as a loving gift. Even when he was sharing something difficult to hear.
What we are missing here are EXAMPLES. Examples of specific words/actions along with EXACTLY what was going on when those words/actions occured, that makes Todd conclud you do not "get it".
I have asked Todd to give examples, I'm not sure if he saw my request or not. I know his eye is hurt now but I do hope he will come back and try to give examples.
In the meantime I will ask you to give me concret examples of when he has said to you, "you don't get it" and EXACTLY what occured just prior to him saying those words.
Cruise you have to learn to learn what upsets Todd. Yes I did mean to write "to learn" twice. Go back and read that again slowly.
OK, yes I'm on a beatles high but there is a song, While my Guitar Gently Weeps, that has the line "with every mistake we must surely be learning".
If I had to make any guess, it would be, I don't think you are learning.
Anytime Todd says "you don't get it", STOP. Don't try to argue with him that you do, don't try at that moment to ask him why he thinks you don't get it.
you stop everything and take a snapshot of what is going on. Take note of what it is that brought you to the point of Todd saying that and STOP doing/saying that.
Chew this post over in your head and heart for a while and see if anything in it can help. Come back and share some examples if you can. Go back and re-visit and reflect on some of those times when Todd told you, you don't get it, and start learning.
I have the subject of my next post but i will let you chew on this one for a bit first. I'm going to go back to bed for a bit and cuddle with DH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I still two hours before church for DS and I.
Hiya Cruise, its me again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I am gonna make a serious effort to keep from getting Todd upset (again).
Habits; four years of casting in concrete the way it is between the two of you. This makes things real hard to change.
If memory serves, I think I said before that Todd "May" be hauling around some guilt that he pushed you into the ONS.
You were spliting when the truth outed, your choice. I don't remember what happened to get you back together. I think this is important.
You don't want to let go, you keep looking for the magic button. Todd is in limbo.
Okay, lemme say this. Todd will never forgive you. Heck, I haven't forgiven my wife. What I did was seek a new relationship. Hey, she hasn't forgiven herself. But she isn't the same person she was three years ago, much less the same person she will be ten years from now. Most of us grow and change. You have too or grow rigid in place. . .
You expect Todd to see you as you are today. He doesn't and cannot is my guess.
In my opinion, the only out the two of you have is to decide to start all over or decide to split. All the best to the two of you as circumstance and life dictates.
Larry
thinking of you cruise. i hope you had a good day.
allow Todd to hang this over her and hurt her with it? If she is, then how long should she be punished for it?
S&C, you seem very assured that it is certainly the case that Todd is choosing to hurt Cruise with his behaviour.
I think that is a disrespectful judgement on Todd. You can't know his motivations for his behaviours apart from what he and Cruise have told you.
I have learned that recovery is not black or white.
The choices are not : "divorce and go " or "stay and forgive".
When children ,finances, faith and beliefs are involved the decision can be far more complex than that.
A person can love their kids enough to place their stability ahead of their own desires in the aftermath of betrayal. Is that weak or strong ?
A person can want to retain the wealth & comfort they worked for together for years and so bear unforgiveness or an unhealed wound in order to support that. Is that weak or strong ?
A person can be directed by their faith and beliefs to divorce or not divorce regardless of how they " feel" , is THAT weak or strong ?
I am coming to believe that it is unrealistic for a BS to stay "only" if some day they expect to feel untouched by the hurt of their betrayal. Such is a shaky foundation for a marriage as it is unlikely.
And that it is also unrealistic for an FWS to stay only if they feel that one day no bad consequence of their decisions will ever revisit them after some miracle point of "recovery" arrives.
Fact is for most of us, BS and FWS, we have an imperfect path before us, that we must make on-balance value judgements about each day.
Staying in a marriage because we expect superhuman contrition from the FWS is as unrealistic as expecting superhuman forgiveness from the BS IMO.
BSs may feel that they may never fully heal from betrayal but feel your duties / beliefs primarily keep you married ? Welcome to the reality of most recoveries.
FWS may feel that they will never be free of the stigma of infidelity ? Well the flesh bond with OP that they made is as real as Snickers bars. Own it. Live with it. Anything better than this reality is a bonus.
That is not to say that some fantastic , romantic recoveries do not occur : they do - but such are quite rare in my experience.
I consider the situation of Todd and Cruise : if I discovered a betrayal long hidden by lies and maybe even with family assistance, I might consider every loving action performed with my FWS during the lying period to be corrupted. I had only three months of lies and betrayal from Squid before I busted the affair. There were few "loving adventures" we had together during those dark days. But I can project how its more than two nights of PA that broke Todd's heart,but also the lies robbed him of a good sized chunk of what should be the happiest part of his life.
Yet I ache to have a FWS willing to work on recovery as much as Cruise apparently is.
I don't think recovery is absolute very often, but many couples recover to a functioning level: where they can be happy most of the time. Where even THIS is not attainable, perhaps divorce is best for all parties ?
Bob,
while I agree with so much of your post, what i still say that is missing is examples from todd and cruise as to what exactly is going on in their lives.
A person can love their kids enough to place their stability ahead of their own desires in the aftermath of betrayal. Is that weak or strong ?
do they have stable household?
in my opinion, we need more information.
i agree, not all recoveries are fairy-tale. mine is in the non fairy-tale category. but we do have a stable household and we are reasonably happy. we have had no MC but I do see my DH HAS worked at recovery.
Hi FL !
do they have stable household?
Dunno, FL, my examples were general, not Todd & Cruise specifically.
I dunno if they have wealth they have created together either. That was another general example. I should have been clearer, soz !
As I recall, Todd was going to school for a career to better their circumstances. I think he was working too. Cruise was feeling unappreciated because he was always so busy.
So she chose to have a affair on a cruise with a man that made his living having affairs on cruises, and getting paid to entertain the passengers. Something like that.
I think one of the things that stunned Todd was the fact that his wife was willing to throw away so much so easily.
I'm not sure if that has been addressed.
Maybe Todd should just get over it. Or maybe things haven't changed that much in the marriage.
I can understand it's quite maddening to lack concrete information. Todd was asked prior to the weekend to provide concrete examples and has not.
So Todd, as one betrayed man to another, let me remind you that not knowing is maddening. You have placed Cruise in an impossible circumstance. You want her to get it, but I don't see the concrete instructions or description of what "getting it" entails.
She doesn't live in your head or body, so you have to be the one that describes it in terms she understands. This is as much your work to do as it is hers. You are exactly 50% of the communication system here, so you cannot put understanding 100% on her.
Hi back at ya Bob,
i realize you do not know either. only they can tell us this stuff.
you seemed to want to tell S&C he was judging Todd too harshly. I'm not sure if i agree.
this fact is clear, cruise is hurting, todd knows it.
todd is not showing indications of caring about her hurt or to help her stop hurting.
he is choosing to remain married and therefore i think that means he has the responsibility to care about her hurt and to work at making the marriage a comfortable one for them to both be in.
look at cruises first post.... they came home from a vacation, he greated the kids and ignored her. do you think that is an ok way to behave?
Hiy eff ell !
you seemed to want to tell S&C he was judging Todd too harshly. I'm not sure if i agree.
Judging disrespectfully, not harshly : jumping to a bad conclusion without knowing all the facts.
this fact is clear, cruise is hurting, todd knows it.
todd is not showing indications of caring about her hurt or to help her stop hurting.
Todd is hurting, this fact is also clear. He walks this earth in the eye of a whirlwind of mocking demons raking at his self respect and has no idea what he wants or what tools he has to achieve it. He knows only how to act in the moment. There is only tactical, not strategic.
Just IMO. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt ( thats too small for me now, dangit!).
he is choosing to remain married and therefore i think that means he has the responsibility to care about her hurt and to work at making the marriage a comfortable one for them to both be in.
All of us fail our marriage responsibilities from time to time, FL... What we ought to do or what seems clear to onlookers sometimes isn't that clear to us at the time.
look at cruises first post.... they came home from a vacation, he greated the kids and ignored her. do you think that is an ok way to behave?
Happens to me every time Squid's in a mood. "nuclear winter", no eye contact. Nowadays I just laugh !
No its not a great way to behave for a person who has all their relational faculties working intact.
I sound like I am defending todd : I'm not, but I really don't know how he feels.
He might actually be torturing Cruise like a cat with a clawed mouse, or he might be flying on only one engine, emotionally, even STILL, and be incapable of investment.
I don't know without taking him for a pint or two and a chat.
so we do agree after all.
i feel bad for both of them. i totatlly realize Todd is hurting too.
which is why i would really like to see them make progress.
You know FL I look back at some of the urgent , well intentioned but impatient advice I handed out here over the years and I am embarrassed.
I'd got over the wall ! Heck EVERYBODY has to get over the wall before the siren goes off and the searchlights start roaming !
Trouble is...not everybody even sees the wall. Just their own tears. Just their own shoes. Just their own thoughts.
Its no longer a "given" to me that everybody can get over the wall or even wants to. These days I am just concerned that people know the potential they have.
I have no evidence that Todd even sees that, however long it has been since d-day.
Hi All-
I am still here!! Been a crazy couple of days. I am taking our daughter out for the "I'm growing up- shopping trip" tonight. It's amazing how fast children grow up, it's very sad. On another note, Todd has decided not to post on this thread. He feels like to changes the direction of things and would rather read along.
Also,
I have doing a lot of thinking about some of the things that have been said thus far and some of the questions that have been asked of me. As a result, I spent some serious time yesterday writing some of this down for Todd. I presented him with it yesterday afternoon. It was intended for him only, but as I got to thinking I thought it might help some of you and give you an better insight into me and as a result hopefully make it easier for you to give advice.
Of course I got the ok from todd to share this with you all. It's a little long:
Todd, 3/09/08
An insight into my soul and the struggles that I go through…
Some on the website have asked me how I have changed from this experience and you continue to question why I stay with you. A poster wrote in a thread recently that they felt their WS understood the magnitude of what they had done based off of some of the things that they had posted to other WS’s. My hope in writing some of these things down is that it will give you a better understanding of who I am, where I am, how I got here and where I am going. You know that I am not the best communicator. Please read these things as they are and do not re-word them in your mind. I am opening up my heart and feel very exposed right now sharing these things with you.
Please keep in mind that these are not complete lists but ONLY some of the things that I can think of. I continually think of things that I could add here but I have forgotten them.
So as I do I will try to add them here.
In Bible class today, the question was posed…What is your name and what does that mean?? Who are you? What defines you? What mark or fingerprint do you want to leave behind? I don’t know the answers to all of these questions but one thing I do know is that I am NOT defined by this affair and I do not want that to be the mark that is left by me.
How have I changed: (not in any particular order)
• Honesty- I see how important this is (not that I didn’t before, it’s just different) I stress to everyone (kids, students and even co-teachers) that it is better to be open and honest. Before I would have not encouraged someone to face up to things or confront someone else. Because I was such a conflict avoider, I would have let it drop.
• Due to your moral standard, I have found myself questioning mine. I try my best (and not always successfully) to be very mindful of the things that are said about others and encourage the children to not gossip as well.
• It is important to me that I do what I say. I did before but not with such conviction.
• I question and continue to question why I allowed myself to go down that road (the A). I had always thought of myself as different from the world morally. I believed in God and went to church and tried to do what I thought was right. After I had the A, I had a really hard time dealing with the idea that I was the SAME as everyone else in the world. I know that is one reason I did not tell you about what happened when I got home from my trip. I thought if I told you, then it would be real and I would have to face up to it and admit to myself what I had done. In not telling you I could shove it away, way back and not think about it. This for some reason made me feel better about it. Since no one else knew, then I could pretend it didn’t happen. Fast forward 7 years, when I took the children and left you, I knew that if there was any way we were going to have a good marriage I needed to answer your questions about the trip. So I did! Obviously, I had no idea of the trauma it would cause to you and our relationship.
• I have NO desire to allow anything to compromise who I am and my Christianity, nor to put myself in another situation that would lead to a moral dilemma. I have hurt you more than I will ever know and do not ever want to do that again.
• I see more clearly how other couples appear to be out in public but most everyone has issues at home. Not to blindly believe what I see.
• I realize how I let my emotions get the better of me (and sometimes still do). I talk to myself and get myself to see things more realistically then emotionally. To keep things in perspective. This is VERY difficult for me and I struggle with it still, but I am very aware of it.
• Being a mother now, I recognize how my actions and behaviors affect the children (even the actions before they were born) and want to better prepare them spiritually for the things life will throw at them.
• I try to focus on the things that I can change and try to recognize those that I can’t. I question myself daily and fight Satan constantly in this department.
• I work hard to focus on the positives in you. Many things about you are VERY different then me. In the past, I would see them as wrong. I try very hard to see them as different now and try to look at them from your perspective.
• I pray daily that God will help me see clearly the things that I need to change. It is amazing to me how something in a sermon or even a comment from someone else might hit a cord for me and help me in this department.
• When making a decision, I think about what you would like and if possible decide based on that and not bother you with it.
• I appreciate the smaller things now. Especially when looking back at the sweet things that you have done in the past like: your proposal in Vienna, our 10th anniversary trip, my 40th b-day surprise and many more things that you have done in the past. I think about the cards that you would buy and what they said in them. You always put thought into them and clearly choose your words. I love that you dated them so I would know when they were given to me.
• Ray told me that I needed to get a “thicker skin”. To not let things you say hurt and be tougher. This one is very hard for me. I have a hard time identifying whether I am developing a thinker skin or becoming callus. I don’t want to become insensitive but I do however want to be able to recognize when things are worthy of hurt feelings.
• When the children ask me tough questions about you, I always keep in mind that it is important that I speak positively about you.
• The blessings that I have are so much clearer to me. I try to focus on them especially when things are not good with you.
• Sermons in church speak so much louder to me and I am open to hearing what is being said. I can identify with what is being said and try to soak it all in and let it help me.
• You know that I am ADD, reading is not something I enjoy doing. I have several books on several different topics that I have never completely read. So to listen to a tape or CD in the car is better. I have listened to “How to get the love you want” and several of the marriage enrichment CD’s from the seminar we had at church that I went to.
• I have posted on Marriage Builders and been open minded to people’s opinions and thoughts. I also, realize that that is what they are other’s advice. I read and determine what is best for us, even if some are saying leave.
• In the bedroom, back after d-day we talked about how you wanted me to let go and be freer to do anything. I have let go and we have done A LOT more than I did before.
• You told me that 100% honesty was expected all of the time. I have been 100% honest with you. You know everything that has happened. The toughest part for me is to talk to you now when you have hurt my feelings. I have to make myself do that.
• You wanted me to NEVER fake sexual pleasure again and I NEVER have.
• I have a better understanding how hard a good marriage is and the time and work that needs to be invested in it to make it work.
• I understand better how fragile relationships are and the importance of being REAL.
• I am more careful about not speaking before I think (not always successful with this ) I think you feel like I am thinking through my answers because you think I am trying to hide something. That is not the case at all. Because communication is a problem for me, I want to be sure that what I say is clear. I am not always successful in this endeavor however. 
I realize that many of these changes can not be “seen” by you but they are there and they are very real.
Why am I still here?: (not in any particular order)
• I love you!!
• I look forward to something better in my marriage to you.
• I don’t want to leave!!!
• I can’t imagine life without you
• 20 years of memories and time invested
• I believe this is the best thing for the children
• Hope to get on the other side of this so we can someday be helpful to others and even our children.
• I know you are a good man and have been hurt horrifically.
• I want the opportunity to make things right between us.
• We CAN have a terrific marriage. I TRULY believe that!!
• Staying here also keeps me closer to God and my focus where it needs to be.
• Running away is not an option for me. I broke my marital promise to you and I don’t want to break anymore promises I made to you.
• Financially d’ing would be a mess
• There are no guarantees in life. Struggles will always be there. I want to conquer this struggle so I will be stronger to face the next one that comes along.
• I truly believe that God would not have blessed us with these three beautiful children if we didn’t have it in us the make it through this.
• I have faith that God is not finished with me yet. I still have a lot of growing to do and I am open to it.
• I want to play with our grandchildren together and grow old together.
• I don’t want to be a wife failure
• I want to have the chance to be the wife and friend that you need me to be
• I want to have a chance to be at peace with all of this and enjoy the gifts and blessings that God has given to us
• I want to be a good example as a wife, mother and Christian to others
Again Todd, this is not a complete list. I don’t know that this is a type of list that could or should ever be complete. I thought maybe if I wrote some of this down that you would have a better understanding of my daily struggles and why I am here. I think it is important to recognize that many times I allow Satan in and he messes with my head and I am not always successful in keeping him out. What you do with this information is of course up to you but I hope that it will at least open a door for you to be able to see the REAL me.
I love you,
Cruise
Any thoughts??
Cruise
hi cruise,
a question to you, if you don't mind.... is this the first time you have communicated these thoughts to todd?
We’ll, here’s my very opinionated view on this thread. Take it for what it’s worth or not.
Disclaimer: this is my humble opinion and has no basis in the reality of what you may conceive!
Todd’s definition of getting it: When your pain , anger , hurt and resentment equals what you have heaped upon me, then you will “get it!” Until then, I will do everything in my power to make you miserable until you do “get it!.
Todd, sorry for the disrespectful judgement of how you feel, but if I have been taught nothing else on this site, it is to trust your gut.
It would seem to me that nothing short of Cruise falling on her sword in front of you, will satisfy what you deem as getting it!
Consider this for a moment Todd. You are in a quagmire. A quicksand type pit, and the more you rage and struggle, the deeper you sink into the pit. I only say this because I have been where you are. It took me years to get out of it. How about some help. Could we here, help you out? If we extended a limb to grab onto, could you grasp onto that limb and just hold on while we pull you out? If you accept, I want you to take full notice of the one who is pulling the hardest. Yes, that’s right, it’s CRUISE!! She will pull harder than all of our combined efforts here, because she is the one that loves you beyond what you will allow your imagination to accept.
When you are out of your pit, we stand ready to douse you with fresh water to cleanse the muck from your pit, and you will then be finally ready to begin your journey,
As you begin this journey, you will notice that you have now acquired a limp that you did not possess before. It’s the fallout of your trauma. Your will likely have this limp for the rest of your life. But you will survive and you will become stronger than most, because you refuse to give up. Cruise will jog along with you. And when it becomes obvious that she is too far ahead of you, she will stop and jog in place, and wait for you to catch up to her. In short, if you allow her , she is not running away from you, but only encouraging you to forge on, in spite of your disability.
She will be by your side, always, as is your god in heaven.
Are you up for this race Todd? I know in my gut Cruise is.
May the grace of God be upon both of you,
All Blessings,
Jerry
you seem very assured that it is certainly the case that Todd is choosing to hurt Cruise with his behavior.
It is a fact that Todd has not even made a choice to work on the M or not. It is a fact that this decision is hurting Cruise.
Is he doing it on purpose? No, I really don’t know. But Todd knows he is hurting Cruise. Cruise feels like she is being punished. The question was how long should she allow this? What more can she do? She is losing hope and still loves him. But that love isn’t going to last and if Todd doesn’t do something to give her some hope, what ever is left in her love bank will be gone. What can she do tp preserve what love she ahs left until Todd can make a decision?
I think that is a disrespectful judgement on Todd. You can't know his motivations for his behaviours apart from what he and Cruise have told you.
According to Pep, it is risky to avoid DJ to people other than our spouses and not appropriate to apply here on the forum.
It is strictly a tool to build intimacy.
While a disagree with what she communicated, I said what I said because the ball is in Todd’s court and has been for quite a while, and until he does something, it is hurting Cruise.
I have learned that recovery is not black or white.
The choices are not : "divorce and go " or "stay and forgive".
I agree with you. But I sure wish you guys would make up your minds. ***********edit********
When children ,finances, faith and beliefs are involved the decision can be far more complex than that.
A person can love their kids enough to place their stability ahead of their own desires in the aftermath of betrayal. Is that weak or strong ?
A person can want to retain the wealth & comfort they worked for together for years and so bear unforgiveness or an unhealed wound in order to support that. Is that weak or strong ?
A person can be directed by their faith and beliefs to divorce or not divorce regardless of how they " feel" , is THAT weak or strong ?
It can be complicated. But it’s not a matter of weak or strong. I never said anything about anyone being weak or strong. But would you agree that there is a problem when their MC says it’s up to Todd and after 4 years of Cruise trying everything she can to work on the M, he still hasn’t decided if he wants to work on it?
I am coming to believe that it is unrealistic for a BS to stay "only" if some day they expect to feel untouched by the hurt of their betrayal. Such is a shaky foundation for a marriage as it is unlikely.
It’s a bit extreme to think that a BS will never feel untouched by a spouse’s betrayal.
And that it is also unrealistic for an FWS to stay only if they feel that one day no bad consequence of their decisions will ever revisit them after some miracle point of "recovery" arrives.
It’s a bit extreme to think that a WS will never feel untouched by their betrayal.
Fact is for most of us, BS and FWS, we have an imperfect path before us, that we must make on-balance value judgements about each day.
Yup!
Staying in a marriage because we expect superhuman contrition from the FWS is as unrealistic as expecting superhuman forgiveness from the BS IMO.
What about some forgiveness, just a smidgen, so Cruise will have some hope?
BSs may feel that they may never fully heal from betrayal but feel your duties / beliefs primarily keep you married ? Welcome to the reality of most recoveries.
I agree. I just wish more people understood it as well as you do.
FWS may feel that they will never be free of the stigma of infidelity ? Well the flesh bond with OP that they made is as real as Snickers bars. Own it. Live with it. Anything better than this reality is a bonus.
As it should be. It’s probably healthy to remember how bad infidelity is.
I consider the situation of Todd and Cruise : if I discovered a betrayal long hidden by lies and maybe even with family assistance, I might consider every loving action performed with my FWS during the lying period to be corrupted. I had only three months of lies and betrayal from Squid before I busted the affair. There were few "loving adventures" we had together during those dark days. But I can project how its more than two nights of PA that broke Todd's heart,but also the lies robbed him of a good sized chunk of what should be the happiest part of his life.
I understand that more than you know.
Yet I ache to have a FWS willing to work on recovery as much as Cruise apparently is.
Don’t we all?
I don't think recovery is absolute very often, but many couples recover to a functioning level: where they can be happy most of the time.
I’m glad that someone of your influence on this forum will stand up and say this. I’m not being sarcastic in any way.
Where even THIS is not attainable, perhaps divorce is best for all parties ?
Unfortunately, unless Todd makes some kind of move, it seems that is where they are headed. And it doesn’t have to be and it’s a shame.
Thank you for your valuable input BP.
Blessings.
S&C
With Todd not joining in (and I respect his wish not to), it is hard to say what exactly is going on.
I do think that it may not have been that you, Cruise, didn't want to think about the affair, or wanted to pretend that it never happened. If Todd has a rigid moral code, and expected fidelity when he married, maybe you were afraid he would divorce you.
So Todd was going happily along, working toward the future, and you were adding babies.
Now Todd's options have been limited by your choice to deceive him. He can stay married, and realize in his heart that the marriage vows were not as important as a one night stand. Or he can divorce and break up his family.
I, for one, can understand the corner he has been painted into.
And please don't think I'm not hoping for the best for you. I'm just saying that there are many consequences for the choices you made.
And no, I don't think you should suffer some more.
I guess the best case scenario would just be for Todd to realize that he was trapped and get over it.
According to Pep, it is risky to avoid DJ to people other than our spouses and not appropriate to apply here on the forum. It is strictly a tool to build intimacy.
hi S&C !
I meant the words generally not in a "Harley lovebusting" way. That it was disrespectful to judge a person negatively on small evidence. but hey, good folks disagree everyday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I agree with you. But I sure wish you guys would make up your minds. ********edit******.
My mind's made up S&C, I can't affect those other gentlemen , sorry ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
It can be complicated. But it’s not a matter of weak or strong. I never said anything about anyone being weak or strong. But would you agree that there is a problem when their MC says it’s up to Todd and after 4 years of Cruise trying everything she can to work on the M, he still hasn’t decided if he wants to work on it?
The inhibitor is clearly with Todd. Its the motivation from that I would like to understand better before berating him, personally. Maybe he won't. Maybe he can't. Some days I can't.
Quote:
I am coming to believe that it is unrealistic for a BS to stay "only" if some day they expect to feel untouched by the hurt of their betrayal. Such is a shaky foundation for a marriage as it is unlikely.
It’s a bit extreme to think that a BS will never feel untouched by a spouse’s betrayal.
Quote:
And that it is also unrealistic for an FWS to stay only if they feel that one day no bad consequence of their decisions will ever revisit them after some miracle point of "recovery" arrives.
It’s a bit extreme to think that a WS will never feel untouched by their betrayal.
I tried to explain that I thought it was unrealistic to build a recovery on the CERTAINLY of total healing or total forgiveness. While attainable, those statuses are pretty rare in my experience. That's all.
What about some forgiveness, just a smidgen, so Cruise will have some hope?
My forgiveness engine was smashed beyond function. Field repairs are barely holding but I'm running at 5%. I am perfectly able to believe a person may be running at less than that and isn't capable of forgiving. Not saying Todd is, just saying I dunno till he tells me.
I’m glad that someone of your influence on this forum will stand up and say this. I’m not being sarcastic in any way.
My days as "plan A poster-boy" are long gone S&C. I just get shouted at for not being fully recovered at almost 4 years nowadays ! I don't influence anything <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for reading and responding S&C. I feel stupid when I spend time on a post that nobody reads <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
FL,
No, this is not the first time. I have told him several times in bits and pieces but not all at one time. This is the first time I wrote it all down in one place. I have in the past written to him and poured my heart out. But ...
Cruise
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
BP,
I meant the words generally not in a "Harley lovebusting" way. That it was disrespectful to judge a person negatively on small evidence. but hey, good folks disagree everyday
I know it was but one conclusion, based on 4 years for posts by both of them. But I thought about the other conclusions and had even less hope for Cruise. If he is incapable if forgiving, it gives Cruise less options to work with and none of what she would like (recovered M).
I tried to explain that I thought it was unrealistic to build a recovery on the CERTAINLY of total healing or total forgiveness. While attainable, those statuses are pretty rare in my experience. That's all.
Bob, you and I are in agreement. Personally, I think anyone that says is totally healed, is due to some trace of denial.
I just get shouted at for not being fully recovered at almost 4 years nowadays
I won't shout at you for not being fully recovered in 4 years; only if you don't make a move one way or the other <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for reading and responding S&C. I feel stupid when I spend time on a post that nobody reads
I hear ya. To cope with that, I just tell myself that the post was so wickedly awesome, that no one could challenge it. For what it's worth, I read a lot of your posts whenever I'm on. You have the ability to put many things into words that just swirl around it my head in like alphabet soup.
Blessings <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
S&C
**********edit*************
First off S&C, I don't harass anyone. I offer an opinion based on what I see. No M is perfect...duh. But the "perfection" argument does not excuse every situation.
Second, your call out by NAME is against the TOS. It is the job of the mods to monitor posts...if you think I am harassing anyone...contact them. In fact, it has been communicated to me by the administration of this board that my posts are in concert with the boards mission and function.
I suggest that if you don't like my posts, that you put me on ignore.
FLT2H:
I am not sure what's next. I guess that I need to do alot of soul searching and figure out what to do next. I don't want a dead M but I can not start the healing process by myself.
Todd has wanted to talk the last few nights which most would deem a good thing. However, I am somewhat afraid of talking because it usually leads to arguments. I felt like I poured out my heart in the letter to him the other day and it seems he wants me to talk. I did a tremendeous amount of "talking" in my letter. I want to know what he has to say about it all!!
I think that if we print this post and read it together and discuss it that would help us some. There is so much here that my brain feels overwhelmed at times (especially at 10:30 at night!!)
Thanks for everything!! If you have anymore advice please keep it coming!
Cruise
Well it really does take two to argue, so if he's trying to argue, just don't argue.
If he disagrees, then thank him for sharing how he feels. No argument.
Remember, each of you are sharing your perspectives. It's usually not a matter of being right or wrong. So if he perceives something differently than you do, why argue. Thank him for sharing and file that away so you understand his thinking.
Just because you poured our your heart in a letter doesn't mean he doesn't want or need to talk. Perhaps he is looking for non-verbal cues to see if he can believe or trust you.
Do you look him in the eyes when you talk? Etc.
Just some thoughts on the topic.
A letter is NOT talking. If he wants to talk...or wants you to talk about that stuff...rather than write it down...don't be stubborn. Talk to him.
MEDC:
I have posted this problem before but todd now has this filter that he sends everything I say through and it reads things in a very negative way. So no matter what I say he feels I am blaming him or I'm not opening up to him. It is VERY difficult for us to have a serious conversation.
If he wants to talk then why do I have to do the talking?? Why can't he share what he is thinking and felling with me??
I just feel forced to talk and I don't really know what to say.
Cruise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I actually found letters were a good way of communicating between squid and I when we were hurting very badly. we couldn't manipulate each other with our immediate emotional responses as we did in conversation.
Worked well for a while that did.
Cruise/Bob
I agree that the written word can be very effective for communication. It is a method that I prefer in some situations.
That being said, Todd is the audience here. He needs to be communicated with in a manner that works for him.
If it is very difficult for you two to have a serious conversation, I would suggest that your marriage is in more trouble than even I believe. Communication is the key to a good relationship. If you two cannot set egos aside and sit down and have an open and honest talk about your life today and your hopes for tomorrow...how in the world did you ever wind up married and how do you expect your marriage to be able to improve?
i know i am an ousider looking in cruise, and my opinion is really worth nothing in all this, but i'm gonna say this anyway....todd made a comment after my post which was a HUGE clue and it doesnt seem to have been addressed. he has now asked that you sit down and talk to him and you don't seem to want to. i get you say he has a filter, but....he is telling you flat out what he wants and you dont want to do it because its not gonna go well for you. maybe you should try anyway, sit and read him the letter, talk about it. ask him what he would like you to expand on. ASK him point blank what he needs to feel you get it. ask him. see what he says.
if she does this todd....dont blow it!!! tell her!
writing has worked for us too. like Todd, my DH prefers to talk because he is not good at writing. but he has come to see that i am better at writing, i need to write to organize thoughts and to get everything out. if i talk, he has to deal with long pauses!!! he hates that! so I write and the note would then be a starting point, he would read it and then we would talk.
honestly, we are moving away from too much writing these days because our communication skills are improving.
although just this past weekend we had an issue that i ended up writing about this morning and this afternoon we discussed it. it was a very sensitive topic for us both but it worked out pretty good.
this is not just about Todd being the audience. it is about a COUPLE working out how to best commuincate. as with everything in marriage, both parties needs must be looked at and compromises made.
i do not believe failure to communicate is just about egos not being put aside. to me it's seems to be more about having emotional responses get in the way of the communication.
writing and then talking has helped us learn how to communicate without the emotional responses taking over.
cruise i do have more to say but wanted you to absorb what has already been stated here first.
did you have any thoughts about "getting it" post from me?
really others here a saying the same thing, like this:
Remember, each of you are sharing your perspectives. It's usually not a matter of being right or wrong. So if he perceives something differently than you do, why argue. Thank him for sharing and file that away so you understand his thinking.
it really important to learn to just accept each others sharing.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Cruise,
I agree with nikko. What do you have to lose by trying (again)? You certainly won't move the M forward by not trying.
However, you may choose to set a boundary here. If it ends up in a fight or he doesn't participate, and you set the consequence.
Praying for you too.
S&C
i ditto this very much:
ASK him point blank what he needs to feel you get it. ask him. see what he says.
and when you do, stay silent, just LISTEN!!!
don't say you've tried this before and all you get is "i don't know" try again. i've gotten a million "i don't know'S too!! i know they are hard to deal with because you cannot do something if the person can't even say what it is they need.
give him another shot at it. and if he does say "i don't know" don't get mad. just ask him to think more on it and then ask him again a week later.
i saw something else that Todd just posted... "I do have daily fear that Cruise is being less than truthful about <fill in the blank>. "
so here is another thing you can talk about... tell him that you want him to let you know anytime he fears you are being less than truthful about something. and look for ways to prove to him that you are in fact being truthful.
again, with the above, do not argue or get defensive. just accept the scenerios he brings up as his reality, because it is his reality and look for ways to halp improve his reality.
i'm sorry medc, i didn't understand. can you elaborate please?
Nikko,
He is resistant in sharing his thoughts and feelings about the letter. It seems as though he wants me to do all the talking about my feelings and I feel like I already "talked" by writing everything down in the letter. I need to know where he is with what I said.
Also, Nikko, did I not answer your post by writing down where I feel I've changed? I'm not sure how else I can express where I am in my journey to give him a sense of my "getting it" or not. Like I said before...I do not think that a FWS can truly "get it". I wrote this letter in hopes that he would see where I am and see that I am trying very hard to "get it" as best I can.
Cruise
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
OK,
I'll try tonight if I can!!
Cruise
He is resistant in sharing his thoughts and feelings about the letter.
you know this to be fact because he has said so? said so this specific time or in the past. past answers don't count. try again.
sit down, read him the note and then just be still and listen. what's the worst that can happen? wait, don't answer that. don't go in with ANY expectations. and if he does not give you any response at all. thank him for listening. and let it go.
think that is possible for you to try?
Hi Cruise,
He is resistant in sharing his thoughts and feelings about the letter.
That's good you understand that.
It seems as though he wants me to do all the talking about my feelings and I feel like I already "talked" by writing everything down in the letter.
The key word is seems. If that is correct, then you really don't know. and the way to know for sure is to try again with boundaries in place.
I need to know where he is with what I said.
Start the conversation telling him you will talk and also tell him that the purpose for you doing this is to also get his feelings about what you wrote.
Then go down the list with him there. You can ask him about how he feels about each point or you can go through the whole list and then let him speak. But make sure he knows that he needs to contribute to the conversation. You have done what he has asked and if he doesn't, then the ball is actually back in your court and you need to decide what you will do.
Blessings.
S&C
i am just gonna pray for you both.....
Just my opinion...but I don't think Todd wants her reading a list...he wants her to talk about how she feels...not rattle off a list that he could just as easily read.
Reading it and then asking him how he feels about each point is NOT a conversation IMHO.
Hi Cruise,
I hope your evening went well. been thinking of you all night. check in when you have a chance.
you are doing GREAT!!
Hi, Cruise.
A year or so back, I was doing some research on people that are seemingly "stuck" dealing with the past. Todd had mentioned that he would be interested in details if I came up with anything interesting.
I would really like to talk to him about the issue if he is still interested.
I can be reached at
dufellow2003@yahoo.comAll the best,
Gimble
how you doing cruise? check in with us when you can.
HI All-
Thanks for your thoughts and prayers!! I appreciate them more than you know.
We talked last night and I am still not really sure if it went well or even helped. This is what I did. I made coffee and we sat and I read through the letter. I do think that helped us have something to focus on. I know MEDC you didn't like the idea but I think it was good. As I read either todd or I commented.
Here are a few highlights...
I think the letter didn't really help todd. He mentioned that he thought it was good for me to write it all down but I don't think it really "enlightened" him at all. My hope was that if he saw it all written down that he could wrap his head more around me and get a better understanding of where I was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
1. Because of the A he is more cynical, not trusting and does not take people at their word anymore.
2. He basically defines me by the A, the lie and that I am a good mother <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
3. I don't respect him as a person and he feels I never have.
4. As the offender, I am the one who needs to do all of the changing. It does not matter what he does.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
5. If he decides to stay then he gives up his "get out of jail free" card. This is coming from the Biblical stand point.
6. I have taken all of the joy out of life for him. Especially the joy of adopting our three children.:'(
7. This was very interesting and eye opening...he is afraid that if he decides to stay and sometime down the road he has bad times about the A again that I will not be supportive.
I have to admit I let my emotions got in the way some of the time and I wished looking back that I would have just taken control of myself better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
When we got into bed I mentioned that I felt like he was one step closer to walking out and he said he didn't think he was but that he was already at the door. At least I didn't shove him out!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Cruise
Hi Cruise,
Glad you got to talk with him. The list was for you so you could focus on what you needed to tell him and you seemed to use it well. People sometimes need things like that when the situation is nerve racking.
It was good that he was able to talk about all these things. At least you have a better idea of how he feels. Some of which you probably already knew, but that’s ok.
1. Because of the A he is more cynical, not trusting and does not take people at their word anymore.
I don’t think I can say anything constructive here so I won’t say anything.
2. He basically defines me by the A, the lie and that I am a good mother
I would ask how he defined you prior to the A. I assume it would be different and positive. So if an event will change the way he defines you, shouldn’t another event have the ability to make a similar change. That event being you showing that you are not the person you were before.
3. I don't respect him as a person and he feels I never have.
I have no way of determining if that’s true or not, but he needs to tell you what it will take for that to change. You then will need to determine whether or not you have to ability to make those changes or even want to.
4. As the offender, I am the one who needs to do all of the changing. It does not matter what he does.
In a way that is true. But if he expects you to stay with him after you have done everything you can, he will need to look at himself to see what he has done to contribute to the environment just before the A. Otherwise, the situation will happen again. Doesn’t mean you’ll have another A, just means that he will then be responsible for the condition of your M.
5. If he decides to stay then he gives up his "get out of jail free" card. This is coming from the Biblical stand point.
Which to me is proof that he is hanging this over your head.
6. I have taken all of the joy out of life for him. Especially the joy of adopting our three children.:'(
So he never smiles around the kids or has fun?
7. This was very interesting and eye opening...he is afraid that if he decides to stay and sometime down the road he has bad times about the A again that I will not be supportive.
Will you allow him the opportunity to have his triggers and help him through them and understand that there is no real timeframe for him to deal with them.
Easy to say yes, but only time will tell. He will have to take a chance to find out.
I have to admit I let my emotions got in the way some of the time and I wished looking back that I would have just taken control of myself better
Do you have a plan to prevent such emotional lack of control?
Todd has taken a big step by telling you his feelings. Hopefully he will be able to tell you what changes he expects you to make, to make amends. You will never be able to undo what’s been done, but you can do everything reasonable to show him that you are truly sorry and that it will never happen again.
You’re doing well keep going.
Todd, you’ve taken a big step in rebuilding your M. Well done.
Blessings.
S&C
Cruise,
I understand and actually agree with some of what Todd has said.
I can understand his defining you by the affair (and by the affair, I do not only mean what happened on the cruise, but also, the 7 year betrayal that followed). The is no "event" that can ever really change that view of you. It is a long series of acts that will one day lessen the impact of what you have done. Think about how long your betrayal of Todd went on. Look at the life events that YOU allowed to occur while betraying him. That should put it all in perspective for you.
I also can understand his statement about your having taken the joy from his life and also from the adoption of your children. He made those decisions while he was being defrauded and like it or not, that does tarnish the event a lot.
I respect you Cruise...and I know you are trying...but Todd's point about your not being supportive down the road...should he have a hard time regarding the affair should speak volumes to you about how you deal with your H. I sense that you are not the most patient person in regards to what you have done. There will NEVER exist a time where you will have the right to say or feel..."just get over it." Your offense and what you allowed to happen during the time of your betrayal is worse than most in that he was kept in the dark for so long...and things may creep up from time to time...YOU have to deal with it in a loving and caring fashion....NO EXCEPTIONS.
Now, all that being said...NONE of this really matters unless Todd can make a decision to move forward. Your deeds can never be undone. Period. He has to accept that and you based on that reality...or he should walk away. You have an obligation to this man for life and frankly, you should be grateful for every single day that he decides to remain your H. At some point, he needs to also feel "some" joy in having you for his wife.
No WS deserves for their spouse to forgive them. Not one. That is a gift from the BS to the WS. But without it, recovery won't happen. How long do you wait for that to happen. Only YOU can answer that...as only YOU knows what is going on in your M. I see some signs that you two are pretty immature when it comes to being able to communicate with one another. That needs to change.
Perhaps a MB weekend is in order?
I wish you both the best...but what I wish more than that..is MOVEMENT. Life is rolling by...and you both are stuck. Figure out what you want to do...and develop a plan to get it done. Time is wasting. Tick, tock.
In my experience, you must first make the decision to recover, with all it's trappings. Walk into it KNOWING that you will BOTH have a great deal of work to do. I think the initial burden lies with the WS. You need to look inside and accept, truly accept what you've done to your spouse and family. Accept responsiblity for the damage you did by your poor choices.
Changes MUST occur in both parties for the marriage to really thrive; if either one of you senses a lack of commitment, and doesn't do the work necessary, you will fail.
Part of the decision to recover is taking a chance. You can't know what tomorrow will bring, but you can vow to become more well equipped to handle it, in a loving way. What will it hurt to change for the better, for both parties?
cruise, i'm sorry i missed posting to you yesterday!
good job talking to todd. Do not make jugdgements like this "I think the letter didn't really help todd". Do not concern yourself with his outwardly response too much. What I mean by that is just be concerned about doing the right things. And talking to him was the right thing to do.
GOOD JOB.
I have to admit I let my emotions got in the way some of the time and I wished looking back that I would have just taken control of myself better
but this, is not such a good job. so here is a little 2x4 for you. DON"T DO THAT!!! you very much do have to learn to put those emotions away. trust me, i'm a very emotional person. i know, it's not easy!! but it really is crucial!
if you keep yourself in the mindset of focusing on wanting to hear todd (not enlighten him!!) he will be more able to feel he was heard. does that make any sense??
I think hearing todd is key to him feeling that you have gotten it.
i have defeintely learned to slow down all my responses, at least i try. i don't know everything, i'm not better at everything. therefore, stopping and really listening to anything my DH has to say is to my benefit and his. it is a sign of respect to pause and consider all that is said and to accept it as is. and emotional rebuttal just derails a conversation.
keep at it cruise.
once again, i have to start my day but later i have a new topic i want to discuss so keep an eye out for that.
have a great day cruise!!
First, what you wrote was amazing.
Yes, in my opinion, Todd does define who you are by what you did both on the cruise and subsequently to hide what you did. He does this from his point of view. More importantly, he defines himself by his reaction to your ONS and subsequent actions to hide it. You hid what you did so it would not define who you are. That was not the best of paths to take, but one that is completely human. Now, long after the fact, you are determined to reject a long ago and very stupid act from defining who you are. Again, this is very human and in your case, an accurate representation of who you actually are.
Most of us learn by doing. This does not mean we refuse to take advice, or at least most of us. It means that many of life's lessons are learned by the experiments and inadvertent events in which we engage as we grow up. Some grow up early and some grown up late. I cannot speak for Todd, but for myself it seems that I am better off with someone who has learned that sex with someone outside marital boundaries is a bad thing, while sex within the context of marriage is a good thing and that said someone has learned this from actual, preferably horrific, experience. I contrast this with the virgin who married somewhat young, then yearned for what they had missed in life. We don't protect our vulnerabilities until we learn, often painfully, what those vulnerabilities are or at least should be.
Take a look at the propensity of women to go for bad boys. As women age, most but not all learn that bad boys are called bad boys for a reason. As women age and learn, most grow to understand that they cannot change who the male is no matter how hard they try given that God and Mom made him. So most women decide that the excitement of a bad boy isn't worth the price.
Todd's position is emotional. While he has asked that you understand the emotional black hole you visited on him, I do wonder if he has ever considered your own emotional reaction beyond a view that you hid what you did like a thief in the night. Have you ever examined your own feelings about yourself and that event in the past and how your emotions evolved as time went on?
Have you told him?
This isn't just about Todd although he seems to be making it that way. The reality is that it is also about the family as a unit, you as a human being and your kids in a chicken soup of emotional entanglement.
And again, I believe that the fact that the truth outed during a time when you were leaving Todd is extremely important in the hunt to define why Todd is, er, Todd.
Larry
there is no time limit on forgiveness.you're right on one point:HE needs to leave her so he can get over it.get off her tip.you speak just like a WW.
"Todd needs to [censored] or get off the pot." This is kind of how I feel. We have had 4 years to make some progress and although he would probably disagree with this, I feel we haven't mostly due to where he is. I fight with myself daily because I know that he is a good man that has been wronged however because my values and core are different I have a hard time understanding things.
I know MEDC says to move on and give up. I just can't do that. There is something in me that can't. I wish I knew what it was but I am not sure. I feel like I will wonder for the rest of my life if we could have made it if I leave. I would question myself as to whether or not I did enough.
I completely understand that we are where we are mostly due to what I did.
I had enough:
I certainly hope that you never do something in your life that requires forgiveness. Also, it is incredibly sad to me that you will leave your life with that hanging over you. Just my thought.
Gotta go for now,
Cruise
and its incredibly sad to me that after four years you still have the inability to please your husband.you still sound like a WW.you shouldnt attack him just because he left someone like you and moved on in life and you're still stuck in the same [censored].
and its incredibly sad to me that after four years you still have the inability to please your husband.you still sound like a WW.you shouldnt attack him just because he left someone like you and moved on in life and you're still stuck in the same [censored].
Why are you bumping up old threads of people that aren't even on the board anymore?
You beat me to the punch Mel.
Jerry
talking down to him wont help.telling someone to "get over it" wont work either.
FLT2H:
I am not sure what's next. I guess that I need to do alot of soul searching and figure out what to do next. I don't want a dead M but I can not start the healing process by myself.
Todd has wanted to talk the last few nights which most would deem a good thing. However, I am somewhat afraid of talking because it usually leads to arguments. I felt like I poured out my heart in the letter to him the other day and it seems he wants me to talk. I did a tremendeous amount of "talking" in my letter. I want to know what he has to say about it all!!
I think that if we print this post and read it together and discuss it that would help us some. There is so much here that my brain feels overwhelmed at times (especially at 10:30 at night!!)
Thanks for everything!! If you have anymore advice please keep it coming!
Cruise
you sit here on the computer complaining about how your husband is unresponsive and wont even look you in the eye,yet when the food is gone all of a sudden you want a plate.get over yourself and make up your mind.
manof
What's your story? Dead thread?
Cruise,
I agree with nikko. What do you have to lose by trying (again)? You certainly won't move the M forward by not trying.
However, you may choose to set a boundary here. If it ends up in a fight or he doesn't participate, and you set the consequence.
Praying for you too.
S&C
he's tried hard enough by accepting "damaged goods" and willing to stay in a fake marriage for over seven years without his wife telling him that she had some "room service" while on the cruiseship.and its mighty suspicious that she would have her user name that references to her affair,which was on a cruise ship.
I don't think that's a fair thing to assume. Netiquette re: bumping old threads isn't always obvious to new posters, on any board.
because i feel like it.im new here and ive been reading every story on this site.and for the record,some of these ppl are still on here.
manofth3year4569,
Please check your email.
Thank you.
i havent posted my background yet,but i will.im new here so im trying to adjust to the system.
There is no reason to attack Cruisegonebad. Leave this couple alone.
I don't think that's a fair thing to assume. Netiquette re: bumping old threads isn't always obvious to new posters, on any board.
It's not just the bumping of old threads; plenty of posters do that, particularly if the old thread in question can impart some wisdom to someone's current situation. But manoftheyear has been bumping old threads just so that he can hurl invectives at FWWs.
I trust the mods to handle this one.
pk
**edit**
moderators note: email me at Revera01@aol.com before you post again
I don't think that's a fair thing to assume. Netiquette re: bumping old threads isn't always obvious to new posters, on any board.
It's not just the bumping of old threads; plenty of posters do that, particularly if the old thread in question can impart some wisdom to someone's current situation. But manoftheyear has been bumping old threads just so that he can hurl invectives at FWWs.
I trust the mods to handle this one.
pk
**edit**.
moderators note: email me before you post again @ Revera01@aol.com
