I am new here, I looked at a lot of posts, and have looked at the basics of MB. On the other hand, my wife and I are seeing a marriage counselor at this time, so we are following the counselors advice at this time. I will look into getting Surviving and Affair to read.

Now my story. Last year my wife started to get into social networking more and more. She would meet guys online playing video games, give them her phone number and social network name, and then tell them about her sex life with me. Many found it amusing, and sent my wife pictures of their privates. She just laughed it off and never really fell for any of them.

On the 4th of July last year she spent the entire day flirting with a new guy she hardly knew, honestly met that day, and that night sent him pictures of herself while I lay in bed asleep.

For the next 2 months she would text this guy every 2 minutes, and chat with him online. Graphic pictures were exchanged, and even plans on meeting up were put into place. However my wife never said that she loved him, because she was still in love with me.

I confronted her about her A on September 19th. She said she was releived I found out, but would not promise to stop contact with this guy. gave me the usual lies. "It means nothing because it is an EA", "we are too far apart so there is nothing to worry about."....etc. She promised that if she did not reconcile this by the end of October then we would go to counseling.

One and a half months later she was still doing the same thing. I asked her to removed him from her social network website, which she did, and I blocked his number from her cell phone on her consent.

Things seemed to get better. She was talking to me again, and we were having fun. She spent time with the kids again, but only 20 minutes a day. Things were looking up for us. I did not think we needed counseling. Until the OM got a girlfriend.

She became depressed, and quit talking to me, she stopped talking to the kids again. She refused to get a counselor, and then turned to an old friend online. She told him everything, even more than she ever told me I think. Within a week I saw the same bad patterns, and warned her that she was doing it again.

On a side note the new OM recently flew from his native country, to the US for a week, to sleep with a girl, who is married. Then he flew home and broke it off with her for my wife. I have no respect for this man.

About 3-4 weeks into their relationship I confronted her, but she had no remorse. She said she does not love me anymore, and she is in love with this new OM. She would tell herself, "How do I know if I can love my husband if I have never been with another man?" She also expressed her desire to be permiscuous with other men, and misses being young and free like her friends who have no kids and just party and have sex on the weekends. I set up a time with the counselor who is trying to help us out.

For me the counselor said I have to be more appealing to her, and assertive, because I tend to roll over and play dead when things get tough. For her he asked her to stop talking to the OM, set some boundaries to stop herself from talking to him, and focus on reviving her love for me.

Little to say she did the exact opposite of the counselor. She obeyed the boundaries but found other ways to talk to the OM, and more frequently than ever. I am still trying to be more appealing and assertive. I do not want to be a doormat. One time I kicked her out of the house, but I had no plan B, and I want to fix the marriage. I had to have the OM send her back home before she fled so we can work on our marriage.

The OM has stopped talking dirty to her according to the chats I record, but I can't record all their conversations in all media. He also is starting a job in a distant area of his country where he will have limited communication with her for 6 months. He said he does not want to be the reason she leaves me. At the same time he always lets her know that he loves her and is willing to fly her to his country to marry her and he wants her to have kids with him. My wife still sends him messages, and tries her best to contact him. I blocked her social website and removed the OM's contact info from her phone. She got extreamly irate telling me that she hates me, and does not want to see my face when I get home from work anymore. I knew I was going to get this response and I was prepared, but it still hurt. I really dont expect this obsticle to last long until she finds another way of contacting him. Then I will have to put up another obsticle.

I have contemplated exposure, but I wont do that until I have read the book, and produced a solid Plan A or Plan B. I do not want Plan D, but it seems my WW is leaning that way, and talks about it often. Her talk is making me think that she is probably right and I will eventually give into a plan D.

It seems like we are running our marriage around in circles. Any bold or assertive move I make just drives her closer to divorce. I try to keep things very calm and level headed. I do not call her names. I do not make derrogitory jokes about her, and I try to be positive in any circumstance. I try to be the most amazing husband anyone has ever seen, but honestly it does not seem to work. She wants a loveless marriage to me, and a boyfriend on the side.

Before I expose I want to make sure I have a solid Plan A. I want to be asertive, but kind. So I got the book "No More Mr. Nice guy" It is in the mail and will be here soon. Honestly I am the bread winner at the house and the maid. Im so nice I offered to let my mother-in-law, and sister and husband stay with us while they are on hard times. By the way both her mom and her sister know and since they live with us they can see everything.

WS



Sorry your here but welcome.
Start with the basics. Post a lot and ask questions. I am not a vet here so there are others that will be able to help you much better than I.

Start off with the basic concepts and then come back and ask questions.

Most of of here use the information from the site as a guide to proceed.

MB Basic Concepts

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html

Nesre

I guess my first question is what if my wife does someting drastic when I expose her? I blocked her Facebook, but he can still contact her saying things like "I miss you wait till this all blows over." She was so furious this morning for blocking her account she threw up a bunch of threat about the kids and taking everything from me. Im a little worried, I really just hope they are threats.

I'd really like to know what your counselor says about all of this. Your wife is behaving in an out of control way. If it was just one OM, MB would work, but it seems like your wife is running wild. What do you mean by she spent more time with the kids (but only 20 minutes)? Is she a good mom? Does she have substance abuse problems or need to be on meds?

WS, this is the problem right here. Your wife continues her destructive behavior without consequence by threatening divorce. She knows she holds this leverage with you and can continue to destroy your marriage and your children's family using this tactic. BECAUSE IT WORKS.

My suggestion would be to stop reacting to it and ask her to leave if she won't quit her destructive behavior. Tell her you will divorce her if she doesn't stop. GEt her out and go into Plan B.

here

WS

Two of the best this board has to offer have replied to your thread. It may be wise to read carefully and LISTEN to what they have to say.

Very good Thread about exposure

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2267556&page=1

Nesre

WS

Direct thread to the news letter


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2266646#Post2266646

Nesre

Excellent links to exposure. Thank You!

believer,
My WW only addiction is World of Warcraft, and Facebook. Here is how her normal day goes. Get up around 7:30-8:00. Go work out then go tanning. Get home by 10:00, and spend 20 min with the kids reading and getting them ready. 10:30-12:00 get herself ready. 12:00-1:30 work on calls for her Mary Kay business. 1:30-3:30 chat or talk to the OM. Picks me up from work then go do errands in order to avoid me at home. By 6:00 she is playing World of Warcraft until 11-12 at night. She does not abuse drugs or alchohol, but she does exhibit addictive behavior, as our counselor states.

Speaking of the counselor, he tells her that she is out of control and that she is acting out like a teenage girl. It�s like she is going through an early midlife crisis. He tells me that I am a push over, and I lay down and play dead when things get tough as a act of self preservation. At first he wanted to wean WW from her addiction to the EA, but after she blatantly disregarded his advice he gave told her to have NC with the OM, which she also disregarded.

I blocked her method of addiction, but not the addiction itself. She still craves to keep contact, and she even went to the library to contact the OM to tell him what had happened. Due to her sloppiness I found his reply in an open email saying, �Well that was unexpected, I�m going to keep my distance while you two work it out.� He did not contact her back even though she tried. He says he will be �working� for the next six months and wont contact her during this time. Although, he will be home every other week to play World of Warcraft with my WW.

It took was only one day of giving me the silent treatment for cutting off one of her supplies, but we did have a conversation. My WW told me in an pissed off way that she has been falling out of love with me for the past four years, and she wants to fix our marriage so her mom and her sister will stop giving her the guilt trip. In the same conversation she seems to contradict herself by saying that she chooses to feel guilty or not, and no one can tell her what to do by making her feel guilt, and she will do whatever she damn well pleases. I assume, and you know that assume makes an [censored] out of u and me, that she is fixing her marriage for the wrong reasons. I think those reasons are so she does not feel guilty about her affair, and she wants to stay with the kids. Not that she feels remorse for what she did or wants to make reconciliation.

Should I still expose her even though she is trying to fix our marriage for the wrong reasons, and I see evidence that the OM is somewhat backing off in the frequency that he contacts her? From the links it looks like exposure will still be in my favor. Should I just keep gathering evidence until I am convinced that she is a liar or telling the truth?

The OM is a single man living in his mothers basement in Austrailia. I have known him for about 3 years from playing World of Warcraft with him, but I would have to say I know how to regulate my time with video games. I have open conversations with him about this affair, and I have no idea how to contact his family, or his friends about this EA. He really seems in Lust with my WW, but does not want to be the OM. The counselor told my WW, "It is most likely that the OM will not want you after you leave your husband, because if you leave your husband for the OM then who is to say that you wont leave the OM for another."

I think he does not want to take that chance with a WW, or feel the guilt of breaking up a marriage. The addiction is on his side too, and he just can't stay away either. I know all this because he will tell me everything about their affair, and she is sloppy at hiding it.

In fact for a while she let me read everything they said, even the nitty gritty dirty emails, but recently she has been trying to cover her tracks. I have blown the ways that I snoop on her, and think I have to resort to a keylogger, but the evidence still pops up here and there, and I save it off somewhere else.

WS, you can expose but you also need to demand she stop her abusive behavioe and start making plans to divorce her. She doesn't believe you will do anything to stop her and will continue until you tell her otherwise. She needs to be told you will divorce her.


My suggestion would be to contact the OM and let him know he is stay away from your wife. Is he married? If so, I would contact his wife.

Then turn off your internet at night. If she is hooking up with men on the computer, then she needs to take her adultery out of the home away from you and kids. She should never carry on with that in your home. That is a boundary you should protect, Sir.

Do you have a keylogger on her computer?

Go download eblaster at spectorpro.com and install it on her computer. You can program it to email you hourly reports of all chats, etc.

Thanks Melody,
I have been separating our finances so she does not have direct access to them, and she is looking for a job so she can support herself. I have also blocked her gaming so she is not up so late. I have taken away her afternoon game time, and I have blocked her to play from 8 - 10:30 on the weekdays.

I should really write up some demands or boundaries I expect her to follow including an NC letter. I have talked to the OM, and he says he will not contact her. Of course he does not keep to his word.

I am still trying to work some kind of Plan A with her, but it is hard to show how compassionate I am for her as she stabs me in front of my face. Right now we are having a family outing to go see a shuttle rocket booster test. I will have to work on the demands tomorrow when I see my counselor. My WW refused to go with me this time.

WS, that doesn't sound very compelling to me if she continues her contact with the OM. Does she know you will divorce her if she doesn't stop it?

Sorry to say, I made a promise to never her kick her out again. This happened after I kicked her out once, and she spat at me saying �You have no right to take my kids from me!� That day she packed her sex toys, and was going to Las Vegas, where she grew up, to figure out if she wanted to stay in Vegas or go to Australia. I thought that kicking her out was a bad idea because I did not want to go into battle over my kids.

It was all emotional based and I was just going straight to Plan D without looking setting up a solid Plan B. I at least want to try to fix us.

You do have a point that I will divorce her if she continues contact, and she needs to know that up front. She might actually be gung ho about that. I am the one trying to keep us together I think.

I would let her know right up front that you will divorce her if she doesn't stop. Allowing her to believe you will do nothing, other than REWARD HER, for being abusive, leads to unrealistic expectations of ENTITLEMENT.

That is not the purpose of Plan A. Plan A is a short term plan in which you a) avoid lovebusters and b) convey the message that you will meet her needs in the FUTURE if she ends her affair. It is not plan APPEASEMENT or plan to reward abusive behavior.

I have been trying to avoid love busters. In fact I think I am really good at that. I read them and said, "I never saw myself doing any of those, well, until I found out she was having an affair." I try to recognise when i get heated and cool things off quickly before a love buster pops up.

The EN's are where I fail. Whenever I try to fill he bank she rejects me. I think it is because I am on the backburner for the other man. It also seems like her ENs are met through her addictions to World of Warcraft, Facebook, and texting. I tried for months to get her attention by taking her on several dates a week, being positive and the most amazing husband anyone has ever had. All her sisters are completely jealous of how great a husband i am to her, but she just literally ignores me on purpose.

I think I need to remove the OM before I can meet her ENs. That is the hard part, and she even tells me that it is too hard for her to not have contact with him. I am still standing my ground, byt I need a firm ground saying I will divorce if you keep contact.

I have a new question. If I tell her that I will divorce if she keeps contact then how does Plan B come into play? I thought you go to Plan B when they aren't willing to comply with fixing the marriage.

Divorce is the ultimate result if she doesn't stop her abusive behavior. You can tell her this is where this is heading. Plan B and Plan D are not mutually exclusive plans. But you don't EVER speak of Plan B, per se, just separation and divorce.

This is exactly right. Rarely can you meet her needs while she is in an affair anyway. And that is not the purpose of Plan A. She won't end her affair until she has to.

I think I would disconnect the internet completely. Can't even count how many affairs here were started by WOW connections.

Has she ever been a good mom?

have a new question. If I tell her that I will divorce if she keeps contact then how does Plan B come into play? I thought you go to Plan B when they aren't willing to comply with fixing the marriage.


Good article that explains it.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html


Nesre

Thanks nes for the article. I skimmed through it once, but I really did not sit and think about it. I like the follwoing and how it defines the two.

If the first plan (plan A) is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, the second plan (plan B) is followed until the affair is ended.

I know that I have been unsuccessful over the past 2 months trying to cut out the OM and have my WW end her affair. She is looking for a job to support herself today, and I was unsure if we were to the point that she should seperate fom me. This gives me the assurance that she must seperate until her affair has ended.

In reality I should have stuck to my guns when I kicked her out the first time, but she had no where to go and no way to support herself.

I still haven't exposed her, enabling the prolonging of the A, no matter how much I beg and pressure her to end it. She will stop contact with the OM when he leaves to do out of state work, and he will have no access to a computer. This is not encouraging because it does not feel like she is resisting contact under her own power, and will easily continue contact when he comes back in 6 months. Will this window of opportunity be in my favor?

WS

You can;t make or force any person to do anything.

PlanA
Show them the spouse they are happy being Md to without being a doormat. No LB's/AO's. Statitics here say 85% of A's don't end with just that.

PLan B
After you have shown them a spouse they want to be with-If the A doesn't end in a resonable amount of time then seperation.

I will pull up or if someone else knows where it is PlanA Carrot & Stick

Gotta run to work

Nesre

I guess I have been trying to force her to break it off, and getting frusterated with my own expectations. I have also been frusterated with the time it is taking (only been about 6 months since she started having EA's). If I were in her shoes I would be doing anything, and everything to save my marriage. That is where my expectations fail me. I never thought I lacked patience in my life, but I have really had my eyes opened due to this affair.

Please let me know if my thinking is correct.

1) Expose her EA with the rest of her family, my own family, friends, and mates online. Monday at the earliest because I do not want to deal with her anger, and all the phone calls over the weekend.

2) Wait for her EA to die a natural death. The OM should stop contact for 6 months starting sometime next week due to his job, and exposure will just put my WW into a tailspin of confusion.

3) During those 6 months give her the husband that she wants. (I suffer from Nice Guy syndrome, a nice guy who says "Yes dear" to everything, does all the housework, yardwork, and takes care of the kids, is not what she wants)

4) Help set our finances up so that she can live on her own if things dont work out. I won't tell her that I am doing this step, but I have already started. I just need to do all the detail work.

5) At the end of 6 months, if she continues contact with the OM then move to Plan B. (She is planning to go on a retreat in August or September with him....ugh.) If she resists the urge to contact him, then I really need to continue building the marriage.

I guess what I really meant in step 4 was separate our finances so she can live on her own. I am so not going to supoprt her, and I dont want her damaging my credit and charging things to me.

I do like the internet idea. My counselor said, "Put a password on her computer that only you know how to access, and be in control of when she is on."

I'm thinking in order to avoid confrontation, becuase she will be pissed that I took her games away, I am just going to unplug it where she won't know where to look. Then I can say "oh look its working!" Or "Sorry our internet is down again. Guess we'll try tomorrow"

WS, I will just reiterate what I said before about talking to her about DIVORCE. She needs to know that if she doesn�t end her affair, divorce will be the result. This needs to be painted in a very, very BAD LIGHT in order to wake her up. Plan B does not preclude doing that.

But your wife believes you will do nothing to stop her, and that is part of the problem. She needs to know that you will divorce her and that you will not make it easy on her. Tell her you will cite her affairs in any divorce action and will go for primary custody and possession of the house. She will have to move out and support herself.

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

I also agree that you should dismantle the internet. Maybe take the router with you to work and only set it up when you are home.

And expose the affair to everyone everywhere! Does the OM have a facebook page? If so, expose him to his friends and family as a stalker of married women. His parents will likely be on his page and they might help you.

Conflict avoidance CAUSES more conflict. She needs to know you are taking a stand against her abuse. "I won't allow you to carry on your affair from this home anymore. Please take this out of my home away from me and my children."

She needs to understand that you have BOUNDARIES and will protect them.

Additionally, when you have a man to man with her, tell her she will need to get her own place and pay for it on her own. You will even help her move out and lend her a car for 6 months. Try to be helpful without financing her new digs.

One thing she can do is rent a room somewhere close to her job. Offer to buy her a hot plate from Walmart.

The opoint is to give her a CLEAR VISION of her future.

So I just got back from the counselors and he agreed with me that blocking Facebook from my WW was proper since she agreed with us both that she would stop contact, but she didn�t. He also said she is being immature and that the choice has to come between her family or her friends online. She said that she is not giving up her friends online and basically stormed out of the room. She is now walking 10 miles to home. I told her to call me when she wants a ride.

He also said that if she continues to not work on her marriage then divorce is the only solution. After she left he asked me so what do you want to do. I said I do not want to waste X number of years of my life with someone who never even tried to be married 2 years into our 7 year marriage. Im young and I want someone who loves me, and my kids.

The counselor also said, "It seems that when you are asked to do somthing to fix your marriage you resent it." and "You can't fix your marriage for anything other than your marriage, you can't fix it for your kids, and you can't fix it just to look good to your family. Otherwise its all fake and nothing really happens"

Hmmmm....The idea of having a fresh start is really sounding good to me.

WS, will you please tell her what I told you above?? I don't think your marriage has to end. But it will end unless you teach your wife that she cannot be there anymore if she acts like this. You have given her unrealistic expectations of entitlement by enabling her. If you will stand up and lead your family by stopping the the enabling, she will come around, I predict.

WS



Went back and read through your post. Sounds like you have done a PL A.

My WW continued both her addictions (alcohol/Affair) BECAUSE she believed I would not
#1-Keep her out of the house. #2 Move out of my own house.

DD and I moved to save our mental sanity. Not a good financial decision. I just don't know what price our mental health is worth .


I allowed-enabeled-put up with- the circumstances to go on for way too long.

Being a recovering addict I know my sole purpose when I begin using is to protect at whatever cost the object that I want to use.

Your needs don't count. Plain and simple.

Listen to MelodyLane. She is one of the best this board has to offer. Don't fianance any part of your WW's use and abuse if possible. Personal pain and being uncomfortable has a funny way of changing attitudes.

Nesre

This weekend the OM has cut off contact with my WW. It has only been 3 days, but still contact has dwindled a lot. My wife and I had a few good times, and she is talking to her sister and our pastor to get help. She does not want to go back to our counselor because he told her to stop world of warcraft and facebook. (I think anyone who consults her will say the same thing....give up the addiction)

I also said that if she keeps contact with him in 3 weeks she is gone. She laughed at me and said "You dont have the balls to kick me out", and that she will take me for everything i got because she supported me for the last 3 years of school. Yes this made me angry, but I controlled the outburst and just restated myself.

Do I still expose her even though it seems like the OM is keeping NC, my WW is actually making an effort, and we had a couple good times?

If I do expose I wanted to send out 70 pages of their Facebook messages to everyone we know. Is that a bad idea?

You better learn how to better control yourself and keep your mouth closed, so as not to expose your own plans.

I do! I do! need to keep my mouth shut. I just couldn't find a good way of saying if you contact the OM your out, just like Mel said.

Heck, She saw that I was forwarding her mail to myself, and asked how I was doing it! I had to bite my lip on that one really hard otherwise she might know I have a keylogger on her comp. I just said she was sloppy and entered her password into the username on my comp, and it saved it for me.

On the otherhand what about exposure? Do I still do it even if things are looking good?

Do I nuke attaching all her personal and sexual messages from FB?

WS

Three of the posters to your thread have combined posts of over 90,000. They've been 'round the Marriage Builders Block a time or two.

My suggestion to you would be to go back to page one of your posts and READ WHAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN TELLING YOU.

IF YOU HAVE TO copy only the RESPONSES to a word document. Then print them out. For me sometimes seeing black and white print helps to sort out information.

Make sure WW does not find them...

A lot of good information is in those responses.

Don't telegraph your moves...TO WW. She is of no help to YOU from a MB's standpoint at this point in the M.

Come back and ask questions after you have read it all again.
JMO

Nesre

WS, you did good. She has to be told that her actions will lead to divorce, period.


Who would you be exposing to? Have you disconnected the internet?

See, I would go to her and lay it out to her in a heart to heart. Let her know that you are willing to stay in the marriage and try if she a) ends her affair, b) affair proofs the marriage and c) uses the MB program to restore your marriage.

If not, then it is time to consider divorce.

Tell her you are not willing to stay in the marriage under any other conditions, so what is her plan to keep you there? If there is no plan, you need to know that now so you can make other plans.

If she doesn't agree to this, I would contact an attorney and start making plans to divorce.

To clarify my point, the "three weeks" part is where I think you made a mistake.
Don't give her a timeline so she knows when you plan to make a decisive move.
If you say "3 weeks" and decide to make a move before 3 weeks, you get caught in your own timeline.

It's better to be slightly more vague, IMO.

"I will not tolerate your adultery indefinitely."

If you plan to kick her out, and she knows WHEN you plan to kick her out, she just might do something to stop you .... think about that.

If this really is what you said, you MUST change this behaviour. This is a LOVE BUSTER for sure. No, you are not going to reveal your sources. You could have said something like "Research." and then give a little wink.

Dishonesty has no place in a M and you are not to allow it in by your own actions. You will have to be able to tell the truth without actually revealing your sources.

Radical honesty is not applicable in situations that involve abuse or infidelity.

Q: Dr. Harley, do you believe that spouses should be transparent and radically honest about their snooping?

A: There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

But in the case where a spouse actually asks a DIRECT question, would that not be a time when you could and should use creative answers? Do we not tell people all of the time on these boards that they should NOT lie to their spouse about exposure, etc.

Dr H states here that the spying techniques should be keep secret not that the BS should LIE when asked a direct question. That was what I had a problem with. I may be a little touchy on this because I am reading love busters and today I got to the part of dishonesty. I read through that section and it is FRESH in my mind.

I didn't encourage in any way that there be any exposing of the spying technique or even that spying was being done, just the MAJOR LB of DISHONESTY should be avoided.

Scotland, a BS should not be HONEST when it means giving up their protection when they are being abused. That is a much greater threat than a potential lovebuster. For example, if my H is beating the crap out of me and i have to FLEE, I don't care if it is a lovebuster to lie to him about my whereabouts. A lovebuster is the LEAST of your problems when a spouse is abusing you.

The PORH and POJA do not apply when it comes to abuse and infidelity.

Well, I am not a vet. That is why I am here to learn. Just thought I had a point. Guess I was wrong. Learning experience for sure.

Well I did it. I EXPOSED her to my mental list of people that I had planned to expose to. It was my family, her family, and friends that my WW and the OM both knew.

I did make the mistake of posting in on Facebook, but I took it down because it was to a much larger audiance than I expected. I guess that was just out of vindictiveness.

I did tell her that I would not tolerate her contact with him anymore. She lasted 3 days then he contacted her. I told her to not say anything, or at least tell him to stop. She just kept a casula conversation right in front of me. I jumped on Facebook, where they were chatting, and told him to F off and leave her alone. Having him contact her is not helping our marriage.

My WW knew I was calling him out and gave me a snide look, then said i had better go **** is gretting mad. Then she logged to go talk to her sister.

Her sister seemd to help her out. My WW twin convinced her that she should delete her Facebook account, but by the time they got off the phone I had exposed to everyone.

She said that was the last straw. My WW wants me out of the house, and she is taking the kids. I stood my ground and stayed in the house, and in my bed last night.

I think my WW's new plan is to move to Colorado to another sisters house, and she wants to take the kids. I am going in today to get a court order to not let those kids across state lines. My WW's mother and twin and other sisters are trying to convince her to leave the kids at their house where they are familiar.

What to do now? Its so shocking that I havent really pulled this together. What do i do?

Great!


Par for the course. Don't sweat it.


Par for the course.


Outstanding! Feel that straightening in your back? That tightness in your pants? You are growing a spine and a pair. Great job!


Stand tall...you did good.


Now you protect the family finances to make sure she doesn't drain the accounts, get an attorney, and try to run off with the kids. If this means opening a new account in your name and moving most of the joint funds to your account, so be it. This includes any IRA's, 401k's or HELOCs she may try to empty out. It happens all the time. Don't tell her you're doing this.

Now you follow through with the attorney to keep the kids in the home, and you stay in the home. She will rant and rail and threaten. Ignore her.

Now you get a couple of digital recorders and record all conversations you have with your WW. She may try to play the "I'm scared of my husband" card and get you kicked out of the house on a bogus DV charge...with these, the man is guilty until proven innocent. Having a recording of any actual altercations will save your bacon. Also put a voice activated recorder in her car so you can listen to her side of any phone conversations she has while she's driving around.

Now you call the Harleys and get professional advice!

FWIW, I think you did the right thing. Her reaction is going to be explosive. Weather the storm and protect yourself and your kids. Be calm. You have injected some reality into her fantasy affair life and that is good. You are trying to destroy that affair and you just did the best thing you could have done.

Hopefully some of your exposure targets will have some luck in convincing your WW to end it and commit to the marriage. Now you need to do the best Plan A you can muster. I know it's hard. You have to show her that you can be the best husband to her and AVOID LBs at all cost.

I'm sure Mel will chime in here soon and she is much better than I.

It looks like it is going straight for plan B. I dont feel im ready for it, but it is happening.

I have planned for this and created an account in my name that all my money goes into, and got things straight with my joint account. I feel like I have planning for her to leave me, but I guess all the evidence is there. Even though i would like for things to work for our marriage. I just dont see it happening.

Thinking of a legal battle makes me sick. I wish she were rational so we can write out what we want to do.

Where am I now? Plan A - if she doenst leave the house? Plan B - if she decides to leave? Plan D - lets hope she is not thinking that?

WS- She is going to make all kinds of drastic threats right now. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I would continue to Plan A whether she leaves the house or not.

Remember, Plan B is for YOU. It is a way of protecting you from the emotional damage of unreciprocated love. When you can't contiinue on, that is when you go to Plan B in order to protect what remaining love you do have in the event that she decides to NC and comitting to the M.

Plan B also gives WW a dose of reality of what life will really be like without you meeting ANY of her ENs.

FWIW, my WW said all the same things in December and we are still living together, although she hasn't ended the A.

Crud. So I attached evidence to the Exposure email exposing intimate details of their affair. I really shouldnt have done that. My WW now went straight to Plan D. Says shes going to replace me with a dog.

A scorned wayward is so cute, aren't they?? Just equate her with a falling down drunk who is furious that you just took the car keys and don't pay her any mind. If she gets too loud, just pat her on the head and tell her you are sure sorry she is so upset. Hope ya feel better tomorrow, dear!

In the meantime, get a little pocket recorder and record every converstation. If she asks you to leave, just tell her thanks, but no thanks, you are not interested. If she tries to leave, tell her you sure hate to see her go! And that she can�t take the kids unless she has a court order. And that you love her dearly and hope she feels better tomorrow!

She has crossed a SERIOUS boundary by carrying on her affair from your home and I would not tolerate this. The next time she does this, I would loudly and firmly ask her to take her affair communications out of your home. If she doesn�t stop, then unplug the router. That is profoundly disrespectful to you and your children and should not be tolerated for 2 seconds. She can take her affair conversations down to the public library.

Ws

Way 2 go man!!!




What helped me after I exposed My WW-

There is a species of gorilla (cant remember what one it is)that when threatened will grab dust/dirt and fling it all over in the air as to make themselves look tough and ferocious.

Thats all they do with it. They will not attack and will run if pushed further.

I visualized that pictured when my WW went on her rants.

Find the visual that works for you.....

Then when she was done (b/c I'm an ice cream freak) I'd ask her if she wanted to drive to DQ and get a cone.

Don;t take on the battle, discuss the exposure divorce or pretty much any other R or A talk for now.

Listen to ML and Pep. They R the best.

You done good.

Nesre

Score! Well done! Dodge her spittle and wait for her to start defogging.

lol...you guys make me laugh.

I went into a new counselor (so i can work on myself) and this one said the same as the last, that we are in a parent child relationship. I guess I'm the parent. I constantly visualize my wife with braces, pimples and her hair in a pony tail stomping her feet saying, "But I love himmmmmm......why wont you let me see himmmmm!"

Anyhow, she sent out a letter telling of how I emotionally bullied her. I do have a problem with letting unresolved feelings build up until I explode for no reason. But any other adult would say, "That was uncalled for"

It seems my wife is crushed by a stupid cutting comment and resents me for it the rest of her life.

Oh to bee a teen for 20 years.

Delayed.

GAH! 33 Hours after I exposed my WW's affair, she is on an airplane to Colorado, and still going to divorce me because of what I did. She tells me:

"You ruined any chance of saving this marriage by telling everyone my intimate details! That was wrong! This should have been handled privatley! Has anyone else even done what you did?! NO! because its wrong! You should stop listening to what they tell you online and at work because it does not help! yeah, ****, its over!"

I say very calmly with a smile on my face, "I didn't do anything wrong, in fact haven't we got lots of help from your family and advice on how to grow together? This is a wonderful experience, and it had to happen. Don't forget that there were three people in this affair, you, the OM, and me. Did you really think I wanted to sit and keep a secret that isn't even mine to keep?"

Has anyone ever had a marriage work out after conversations like this?

Should I just smile and shut up? It looks like I just don't care, or that I am mocking her or something?

Someday you guys will look back on this and laugh. Well you will anyways.

What's in Colorado that WW would run to? Family? Friends? OM1?

Where are the kids? Are they with you? How are they taking this?

If you haven't consulted an attorney about an emergency custody hearing you should do it now...if she left the kids with you, it's abandonment and works in your favor.

Did you firewall your finances? Make sure to turn off (or reduce the limit on) her credit cards and let her finance her own single lifestyle..

Colorado is where a sister is. She is offering her house to my WW while her sister helps on developing her spirituality. Her sister does not want her talking to OM while at her house. At least WW has a goal, and her sister will do anything to help our marriage. Plus it gives me an emotional break....whew! When she comes back I hope to have undivided attention for plan A. (too bad the WW is threatening Plan D as she left)

The kids are with me. My mother in-law lives with me (yes I support my in-law cause I am a nice guy) and is watching the kids. She said she will go wherever the kids go, unless the kids are with my WW and she decides to bring in the OM or a new guy.

I consulted about getting a temp restraining order, but it doesn't look needed right now since I have the kids.

I have removed her name from a second joint account and I am putting my finances in there. I was thinking of sending her sister money as a good faith payment. On paper it will look good, and her sister will be in control of the money.

WS, this is a great development that can work to your advantage. Since this has been going on so long, I would strongly suggest you send her a plan B letter and don't allow her back until she agrees to a) end her affairs and b) commit to the marriage. You have a magic opportunity to make a positive influence in your marriage right now and I wold take advantage of that.

Do you understand Plan B?

As far as Plan B. I understand that I do not have contact with her, and let her know what it is like to be divorced. I tell her that the affairs need to end, which I think they were going to anyhow until I exposed.

I will leave it in her hands to call the children. No point in me going out of my way to give her what she wants. Especially when she doesn't know what she wants.

Do i set boundaries in the letter, tell her i am cutting off all these websites and games in my house, and other DEMANDS which are LBs?

Here is a copy of the plan B letter from Surviving an Affair:

My Dear Sue,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with Greg possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with Greg once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. Our friends Jane and Paul have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever you would like. But I will not be here when you visit. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through Jane and Paul.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with Greg, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with him. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Greg and are willing to follow the measures that were suggested to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing Greg.

With my love,
Jon
Send copy of letter to the OP with this note: pg 81
I love Sue with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I will wait for her to give me that chance.

Oh no, affair proofing is not a selfish demand. It is a critical element to rebuilding your marriage. It should be one of your conditions in allowing her to come back. Any computer in your house is a threat to your marriage and dashes any hope of recovery. i would make NO COMPUTER USE a condition of her return. She is addicted to the games/computer and it has almost destroyed your marriage. It has to go.

You might want to send WW the SAA book as a part of your Plan B ....

Just a thought.

Here is a rough draft of my plan B letter, please comment:

Hey Babe,
Your �Broken� letter is right in the fact that I had said mean things to you out of anger. I know I build things up inside to a boiling point, then lash out at you with extreme prejudice. I know you have a sensitive spirit, easily hurt, and I should respect that. Aiden has a sensitive spirit too, and I am worried that I might cause him damage also if I do not change. As soon as I knew what was up, I tried hard to change it, but I just didn�t meet your needs in time. I am tormented all the time that I was too late in realizing what I had done. I felt that my only hope of getting you back was by changing myself, but by then there was already another person.

I would like to have a fresh start and this separation will help give us time to reflect on what we need to do to improve ourselves and our marriage. But our marriage cannot move forward with Ian, or any other man between us. In order to rebuild our marriage you must promise me, and yourself, to never make any type of contact with him ever, even when tries to contact you.

Please take your time in Colorado to reflect on what is needed for you. Please do not come home unless you want to fix our marriage, leave other lovers behind, and make a commitment to our family.

During this time of separation I will not call you, talk to you, or try to see you in anyway, until you are able to make this promise. I will not support you financially so you can exercise your independence. I still love you, but I can�t support your needs when you are thinking of someone else. If I need to get a hold of you, or if you need to get a hold of me please use your sister or mother as a mediator. Call the kids through your mom�s cell phone if you want, and they will call you when they want to with your moms help.

I want to rebuild our marriage from the ground up, starting by dating. Our marriage is meant to be eternal; it can stand this type of test, as long as there is not another man interfering. It can weather this test by fulfilling each other�s needs, refrain from hurting each other, and we can fall in love again. We both have a lot to work on, and this time apart will be very beneficial finding ourselves, and learning our needs and what makes us happiest. I believe we can be happy one day, and this will only be a little blip in the grand scheme of things.

We need a new lifestyle. Like the one we had when we were first married, when we had time to spend together, without T.V, or video games in our way. We were free to go out on walks down the canal, out mountain biking, or just grabbing some hot chocolate and sitting, talking for hours in the car. I miss those days, and our current lifestyle does not reflect us at all anymore. It would mean giving up video games, and movies as our only choice for a date, but I am willing to get rid of those things in order to save our marriage, and our love.

I have always loved you, even to the day that you left me. I cried at my work for hours thinking of you leaving me. I still love you, and I want to work with you to build our marriage. I want to not only be your best friend, but your mysterious online lover too�.lol. It�s just impossible to gain your attention when Ian is trying to talk to you. I just turn into room noise.

Your Eternal Companion, Best Friend, and your hopeful Lover,
Brad

WS, good letter!! I took out potential lovebusters and shortened it up a bit. Check this out;

Hey Babe,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affairs possible. I foolishly lashed out in anger and didn�t make an effort to meet your needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake. I would like to have a fresh start and this separation will help give us time to reflect on what we need to do to improve ourselves and our marriage. But our marriage cannot move forward with Ian, or any other man between us. In order to rebuild our marriage you must end your affair forever.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with Ian once and for all and commit to doing what it takes to fix our marriage.

Until that happens, I will not have any contact with you.

During this time of separation I ask that you do not contact me unless it is an emergency. All pertinent information about the kids should be passed through your mother or sister. Call the kids through your mom�s cell phone if you want, and they will call you when they want to with your moms help.

I want to rebuild our marriage from the ground up, starting by dating. Our marriage is meant to be eternal; it can stand this type of test, as long as there is not another man interfering. It can weather this test by fulfilling each other�s needs, refrain from hurting each other, and we can fall in love again. I believe we can be happy one day, and this will only be a little blip in the grand scheme of things.

We need a new lifestyle. Like the one we had when we were first married, when we had time to spend together, without T.V, or video games in our way. We were free to go out on walks down the canal, out mountain biking, or just grabbing some hot chocolate and sitting, talking for hours in the car. I miss those days, and our current lifestyle does not reflect us at all anymore. It would mean giving up video games, and movies as our only choice for a date, but I am willing to get rid of those things in order to save our marriage, and our love.

I have always loved you, even to the day that you left me. I still love you, and I want to work with you to build our marriage. I want to not only be your best friend, but your lover�

Your Eternal Companion, Best Friend, and your hopeful Lover,
Brad
[/quote]

That is all I would say for now but when she wnats to come back is when you will get into the nuts and bolts of your conditions. FOR EXAMPLE, when she is ready to end her affair and commit to the marriage she would have to agree to NO COMPUTER in the house.

Cool Mel,
That helps me out alot. I was anxious, wondering why you were taking so long, but now i see. You really pumped out something that is short and sweet. I tried to avoid LB, but ya know what?! Im bad at identifying them....lol....one more thing on the list of stuff to work on.

Ah man!...no computer in the house? I just bought me a new one. Plus the WW needs it for her Mary Kay buisness.

uh...can we get rid of her buisness too?...yay!

If her business is not making love bank deposits for you, then I think it should be gotten rid of.

That computer has about destroyed your lives. I would either get rid of it or replace it with a laptop that you can take to work with you and bring home at night. That way you can be on it only when you are together.

Just an update:

My wife is still gone, and i haven't sent out the Plan B letter. I think she got a round trip ticket so she will be back next weekend. I haven't talked to her since Tuesday.

I logged into her yahoo email, and I saw that the OM was trying to get a hold of her. Saying "how are you holding up?", and "Ill take all the blame for this mess." DELETEed permanently.

I emailed 2 of WW sisters that OM is still trying to contact WW.

It seems like this situation is starting to affect DS3. He said last night that nobody likes him. This is not my son saying this, he has always been cheerful and upbeat. I was thinking I should put my boys in day care so they get the attention and what they need during the day.

DO NOT put this in any letter to your wife.

You are in extremely fragile conditions in your marriage and having access to your children.

Any written admission about your parenting skills wouldn't not bode well in front of a judge.

Period.

Yeah,, im going to use the letter presented to me by mel, but I think she has a round trip ticket, and will be back soon. I really don't want her back until the A ends, and she is committed to fixing the marriage. If she doesn't want the marriage to work then she is not welcome back at all.

I was thinking that I do have OM address, and he lives with his mother. I think she needs a letter.

Update:
I went to the counselor today without WW, and at the end of the session he agreed with everything I did. Exposure, and all the like. However, he said that there really isn't much more he can really do for us because she has an addiction to World of Warcraft. She is neglecting her responsibilities as a parent, and does not do anything that the counselor suggests. He really can't work with someone who is unwilling to be worked with.

My wife is addicted to an affair, World of Warcraft, and rebels against requests by those in authority. What do i do with that?

Finish your exposure if you haven't already.

Cut off her credit cards and debit cards (but do send some money to her sister for upkeep).

Cancel her WoW account.

Send SAA to the sister she's staying with.

Identify an intermediary, make sure they are aware what is expected of them, and send the plan B letter.

Finish exposure if not done and cut off money so she can't go and see the OM.

Done
Done
Done
Told sister to get it for her so it doesnt look like Im pushing it.
Done. Will be hard to enforce Plan B when she comes back next week, but i think she has stopped contact with OM. We will see.

okay I feel like im on the right track. Thanks bit.

WS, get the letter to your wife pronto so she can cancel her return trip. If she tries to come back, change the locks. Let her sisters know what you are doing and why.

And it is a good idea to send a copy to the OM and his mother. Let them know he has ruined a marriage.

Get the computer out of the house and make this a condition of her return: no contact with OM and no more computer. You won't be able to even leave a computer in the house.

p.s. you are doing an AWESOME JOB, WS!! I bet you save your marriage in the end.

Once you go dark, the main thing you will have to look out for is her agreeing to everything and then not following through. That is why the computer has to go. I would get a laptop that goes to work with you every day and stays in your office on the weekends. That is the ONLY way she can recover from her gaming addiction.

World of Warcrack, its set up to suck ppl in. Its a business of fantasy.

Give her a taste of what her life will be like if she persists in neglecting her family/marriage/relationships.

AKA ~~~> Plan B

WW sister says my WW wants to come home on Tuesday, ad has agreed to a NO CONTACT letter. I replied that she also has to agree to commiting to the marriage no matter what it takes, and that she will be making major lifestyle changes.

What I will do is give her computer to my sister. Then I am locking my computer and turning off the internet during the daytime. She can only use the computer for her buisness when I am home and with her.

Is this demanding or what?
Should I be direct and tell her the conditions above, or should I just say "We are going to make a lifestyle change" then let her know later?

I like to play my computer games too, but responsibly.

Its like I want a beer after work, but with an alcoholic in the house they will drink all the beers in the fridge. I have to give up my beer a night just to make sure my wifes addiction doesn't resurface.

WS

I skimmed through the last few pages.

You did not give her a PLB letter, right?
Nesre

Ya know what?

I'd leave her at her sister's another week.

For insurance.

Have sister tell WW that YOU need time alone, a whole week, "to think things over & sort stuff out".


And, it's true.

You really need to make some firm boundaries.
And this will take some time.

Don't be demanding. Call your wife and tell her you are willing to consider reconciliation if she agrees to these conditions-�this is what it will take to interest me in reconciliation, otherwise there is no point in coming back�:

1. she end all contact for life with OM by sending him a NC letter

2. the computer is removed

3. she commit to a program of recovery [get counseling with MB = this will be your greatest protection against a recurrence]

Call her up and go over this with her. These are not negotiable items, these are boundaries that MUST be in place in order for your marriage to recover. She can�t negotiate the conditions of her return. If she won�t agree to these things then she is not ready to reconcile. I would get her full agreement before you agree to reconcile.

YES YES YES!!

WS, I love Pepperbands suggestion about putting her off for another week. Then after another week, you can lay out your VERY FIRM, UNMOVEABLE BOUNDARIES as a condition of her return.

I suspect she wants to come home soon so she can get back online. But the longer you make her wait the more she will withdraw from her gaming and the OM. And.........the more willing she will to commit to recovery.

Ws

Way too soon for a change of heart or attitude to really become who she is.

I think we are a lot alike when we wanna believe our WW is going to change. Change does not occur that fast.


Good saying I recieved in an e-mail today:

THE road to recovery is always under construction.

Looks like you got the plans for the construction going but no equipment on site yet.

Good idea to leave her sit for a week or so "While you think"

In my PLB I required 30 days sober from alcohol before I would even reconsider NC.

Nesre

I did, im not sure if she read the plan B letter. I asked her sister, and let her sister know of the conditions to come back. I used the plan B letter proposed by Mel.
How do I know for certain that she will commit to those conditions if Im not really keeping contact with her, or if she has even read the letter?

I guess the easy answer #1 is look at her actions, and judge if she is going to commit, or answer #2 No one really knows.

She has not tried to make contact with him for a week. He told her that he was leaving for work and wont have contact. So she is either going to work on the mariage, or fake it until OM comes back in 6 months. Tough to tell.

She says that she is already homesick for me and the boys. In less than a week? is that possible? Well she does have a sister who is showing her what her happy marriage is like, and what it means to spend time with the family. Giving her good marital books to read, and everything. I think she got my WW SAA, we will see.

Call the sister and tell her your conditions when you tell her you are not willing to allow her home just now. If your W is going to comply, then she can call you and go over the conditions and then you will decide. But either way, you want to think about it more another week. Tell her you are not ready yet.

So i just sent her sister an email saying:

"I am not ready for her to come home, and I need time to gather myself together." I said "If she came back now I don't think my emotions can take it, and just the thought of her coming back right now gives me anxiety." I really don't think I could handle it if she came back this week. She probably does want to come back because her sister is enforcing the law at their house. Too bad it wont be any different at my house. I think that is why im afraid of her coming home. I am afraid that she wants to push me around to let her online. I need time to gather myself together so i can stand up to her.

Im not sure her sister will let her stay there for another week and im not going to pay for her to fly all over the US to visit her family.

WS, the key will be to get rid of the computer and have a PLAN to replace that vacuum with something ELSE: ie, a happy marriage. If that doesn't happen and new habits are not developed, she will fall back into the same patterns. The marriage will just stay sick. So I would have your plan ready.

The first thing that has to happen to recover your marriage is to actually SCHEDULE 20+ hours per week of undivided attention meeting these needs: SF, converstation, affection, and recreational companionship. This has to be scheduled without your boys, WS, because children will interfere with the goal. When you talk to her, i would explain that this is part of the recovery you have in mind.

I have given that some thought and scheduled to replace her time that she playes video games with Undivided time. If we count working out together, which we already do, but without our head phones, a date on the weekends we can only hit about 15 hours. Still scratching for ideas for the last 5+ hours. It starts eating into my time with kids at that point.

Keep looking, WS! Get a babysitter as often as you can. It is in the kids best interest for their parents' marriage to recover so you will be ensuring their security. And the way you recover your marriage and make it stable is to get into the HABIT [FOREVER] of spending AT LEAST 15 hours a week together. But you need 20 until you fall in love; 15 for maintenence.

You are doing great, friend!!

WS

I don't know if you have been here but this may give you some ideas.

Nesre

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=34&page=1

Doesn't MiL live with you guys? What's her take on WW's behavior? How much does she watch the kids? If WW was on the computer all day then possibly quite a bit.

Could MiL watch the kids for a few hours every day so WW can come have lunch with you every day?

Note that removing the computer from home and/or disconnecting the internet is not enough. She can get on a computer at the library or anywhere else for that matter. An alcoholic will find a way to get a drink.

Yep I agree with that. Some ppl who have thier prioritys straight and self respect.

The people and/or children that get really caught up in gaming addictions have emotional issues obviously. The games are fun, I enjoy them too ..when I can.

When someone is looking for a fantasy though and wants to escape WOW can be very seductive just because of how its designed. Nobody really has to be accountable to others but thier is a social draw to others, sortalike High School. Its incredably fun but needs to be enjoyed in small amounts and respected for what it is, an escape. Just like we can appreciate a good wine responsibly or a 100 yr old scotch when we respect them and keep them in their place in our lives MORPGs need to be respected.
When someone has emotional issues that need to be dealt with in RL and/or need to mature in some way MORPGs can be an unhealthy escape, and by design, these games supply a superego that interfaces with our personality in such a unigue way ppl will/can value their "character" and online personna more than the real person they are or the real ones in thier life that need direct care. Thats when they become unhealthy.

Wow is a social networking game as well as a fantasy game. I could go on.. but it should be treated like facebook is treated here or chatrooms as we talk about how they can breed fantasy relationships. CAN is the key word here. The people who participate in any social sites are responsible for how they act. Its allways one bad apple ...

Last year we hosted the exchange student from h*ll!

He was addicted to WoW. Plus other stuff.

He couldn't get into his real life experience here - THOUSANDS of miles away from home, with new people, new experiences - once in a lifetime kind of thing, because he couldn't leave WoW and porn alone.

He had real issues and WoW just gave him the vehicle to avoid dealing with them.

Yes MiL lives with us, but she has tried not to enable My WW by staying in her room during the day, and forcing her to take care of the kids. As for her attitude towards her daughter: she daily lets her know that she is making a mistake, although she does little to prevent it. Of course MiL is divorced after her husband said that he didn't love her for 20 years, and just stayed in the marriage for the kids. Apparently this struck her as a surprise....lol. How someone could not love you for 20 years and no one notice?....um yeah that is not my story.

MiL will be leaving soon to help her DD30 who was recently divorced too. 5/8 kids of hers have had cheating/divorce in the past, must run in the family.

I love the lunch Idea! that adds another 5 hours per week!...And a little date on Sunday will put us over the top...Ill check the link later, and see what it is about....

Thanks All!

WW has hardly been out of the house for a week. Im trying to cope with things, think things through, and make my house a happier place, a sanctuary. Lo and behold she calls me out of the blue wanting to talk with me, not the kids. She just wants to chat, see what Im up to, and talk to me even if I don't talk back. She is saying all these great things as if the fog has lifted and she wants to try anything and everything to fix the marriage. She says she is reading all these books that are helping her realize what up. She has said that she only tries to think positive things about me, and she hasn't thought of Ian.

I have red flags on this. How can she be telling me for months that she doesn't love me, then turn around and say, "I was lying to you. I do love you."??? I see that it is common on the forums for WS's to say they do not love the BS anymore, but to have a turn around this fast gives me red flags.

She must know how to play me pretty well because in tears I was about to say come home I miss you. Instead I bucked it up said I miss you, and asked her to stop trying to get a hold of me because it just messes with my head. I said that by me not talking with her she will miss me more, and I can focus on getting my stuff together. She said she doesn't understand. I really don't want to explain this to her, I said I miss you, and hung up.

Once I make my house a happy place for me to be then i think I will invite her back.

What are the opinons out there?
If she is lying, or telling me the truth, should I take her back so i can make LB$ deposits?
Is she just playing me so she can get back and continue what she was doing? (Im not going to play that game NO WAY!)
Has anyone had experience with this and how did it turn out?

I have put together some conditions of the WW coming home. She has not been in contact with the guy for a week, and he has not tried to contact her. Yes i know its only a week, but Im still giving her one more week out of the house. I think I have cooled off enough that I can talk to her in a positive way. Try to rebuild our relationship before she gets home. Right now she is having major withdrawl symptoms, like nightmares and stuff. The mediators are not helping. they seem to be gossiping more than just conveying messages between me and my WW.

1) She has to have NO CONTACT with the other man ever again. I think she wrote a letter with her sisters approval, but I have his address so I don't think she can mail it out yet. I feel that I must approve of the letter also.

2) She has to get individual counseling for herself, pay for the co-payment, and actually do everything the counselor says without justification or splitting hairs.

3) She can only use the computer when during designated times. I will have it locked down the rest of the time. Internet will still be on so she can stream movies to our blu-ray....yay netflix!

4) No World of Warcraft, Facebook, Myspace, MSN or any other chat software. (can change in the future, but no more WoW or any other MMORPG ever)

5) She must spend time with me as designated: lunch time (if Im available), the hours between 8PM-10:30PM, a date on Saturday, and time with the family on Sunday and Monday.

6) Get a full time job. (still debating on this one. Mainly I think she gets bored at home with the kids, but I don't know)

7) Must not hide or keep passwords from me. I will keep my email, facebook, or whatever open. Always have, I have nothing to hide.

I think this is a good idea.


Get new mediators! There's a thread around here titled like 'boot camp for IM's' or something like that. I think it was MelodyLane's thread, or one of her favorites. It's a serious job and should be taken seriously.


Yes, this is a requirement. You have to see it, approve of it, and mail it together.


I'd suggest that her computer use be monitored, either by shoulder surfing or keylogger. Also remember that she can just go to the library. Consider putting a GPS tracker on her car so you can figure out where she's been all day.


For both of you. I'm an old time wargamer myself (think cardboard counters and hex maps), and enjoy my video games when I get the chance to play them, so I know this sucks. Think of it like having booze in the house when a barely recovering alcoholic is there.


UA time is a good thing!


Some women are just not cut out to be SAHM's, and that's fine. It's a tough job with long hours. This one I'd really suggest you guys discuss it and come to some mutually agreeable solution (coughPOJAcough). Might be school...might be a part time job...might be volunteering...might be an attitude adjustment and taking on the SAHM role.

You should also add in counseling with the Harleys, to give you both the tools you need to create a new marriage.

I think you should communicate all your terms to her before she comes home. Others might feel differently so get some input around here first.

TJ



Bit, I have boxes and boxes of old Avalon Hill and SPI "hex" games in the garage. I used to enter Squad Leader tournaments on weekends back in the early 80's.

In the semi-finals of one tournament I played a guy so confident of his pending victory that he flipped the whole table over when I beat him on the last round phase of the game. Little carboard panzers, 88's and squads flew everywhere. It was like he could not comprehend my strategy at all. I knew from the second round I would win on the last move.

Whenever I played I would make sure to go over to my opponent�s side of the board a few times and take a long looks from his view of my position. It's funny how that perspective was very different and enlightening. Good advice for a lot of life's challenges.

Fun times.

Sorry about the Thread Jack WS. Carry on.

Yeah, counseling with the Harleys. Thats a good one to put on there. We do need that.

The two of you need to mail it together. After you approve of it.

Yeah I won a Titan tournament once and placed regularly in Axis & Allies tournaments. I even placed in a World in Flames tournament...now THAT was a marathon!

Care for a quick game of Squad Leader?

Oh thought of other conditions or boundaries that I should add

7) No flirting or confiding in the opposite sex. Especially of your sex life at home, that should be kept private.

8) Talk with your sister or girlfriend when you need to confide in someone other than me??? (As her best friend I don't expect her to confide to her sister even)

9) Find a local girlfriend or a group of girlfriends to spend time with.

I feel like Im getting a little too controlling and demanding if I keep giving her all these conditions, boundaries and rules, but some of them are mutually understood by any married couple. What else should I spell out?

I think you might cover more territory if you introduce the POJA guidelines.

Have your requirements for recovery include the MB fundamentals rather than attempt to cover every behavior possibility, one by one. (You can never cover them all, so aim for the fundamental principle behind everything)

Example:
The decisions effecting the family will be made jointly, with enthusiastic support by Mr and Mrs Spinning. Here's how (list POJA guidelines).

I strongly advise you to introduce POJA immediately.
So many "recovering" marriages forget to do this, and it is nothing but trouble, later on. And, the spouses do not feel like they love each other !!!

If you decide to counsel with Harley's (good idea) have them help you with POJA.

POJA is intended to create a marriage environment which is conducive of the spouses being IN LOVE with each other.

I think i will do the following then.

1) Make a NO CONTACT letter together and mail it out with my approval
2) Computer is locked down at certain times, and she can only use it with someone watching.
3) No more WoW or MMORPG ever.

the rest of those things I brought up should be discussed using POJA. Like chat rooms, flirting with other guys, confiding in the other sex, getting a full time job, and whatever else might pop up.

I think it is fine for you to state your boundaries.
Things like "flirting" is a no-no, and will not fall under POJA.

"I will not tolerate flirting of any sort.
I will consider ANY flirting as YOUR message you want this marriage to end.
I will then take steps to end the marriage""

Activities that are not boundary breakers (for you) are POJA material.

I guess boundary breakers are things those things that I need to have happen in order for me to gain trust in her again. All those conditions or boundaries that i question are not really boundary breakers to me.

I think I have the line drawn out a lot better now. Thanks.

Boundaries are letting WW know, what behaviors will end the marriage.
Boundaries are very clear statements, declared before Mrs Spinning returns home.
A boundry is just a set of rules as to how you as a person will accept to be treated by others.

Your part in this, is stating in clear and simple terms, the exact behaviors that show you she will no longer be married to you.

Therefore, boundaries cannot be vague.
Such as:
"You will meet my ENs." <~~~ Not a boundary.

"I will not tolerate flirting, WOW, or (insert your boundary)."

She needs to understand, boundaries are your way of controlling how people will treat you.

If she chooses to break YOUR boundaries, you will not discuss it with her, you will be talking to an attorney. She needs to know that.

Wheels, I cannot tell you what your boundaries are/should be.
I trust you to do that.

I advise you to make them clear/brief ... and not open to negotiation.

All other issues that CAN BE open to negotiation, are POJA items.

I hope this helps.

PS.

I would not even bring up the word "trust" with WW.

It is a few years too premature to consider trusting. (really, I'm serious)

Your trust issue right now is ~~~> self trust.

Trust yourself to construct boundaries where you WILL take action if WW violates your boundary.
Trust yourself to NOT negotiate boundaries.

Im thinking that I never really had personal boundaries, and that is why people have a tendency to take advantage of me. If I have boundaries that I don't want people to cross with me, then I can be more happy because people would not be stepping on me anymore. I think I need a set of boundaries that define myself in general also. Like "dude don't put fliers on my car while Im standing right next to it" type boundaries.

The boundaries that I have for my wife won't be the same, but she had better not stick a flier on my car while Im standing right there, I mean, at least attempt to put it in my hand!

LOL

I won't be putting any flyers on your car, that's fo'sho.

Thanks for the boundaries thread. It helped me come up with more self protecting boundaries against another persons disorderly conduct.

If i feel that my spouse if flirting with another man, then i will be obnoxious and be an obstacle making it tough to flirt.

If my spouse brings a third person into our marriage, I will try to remove the third person from the marriage. If that fails, I will remove myself from that marriage.

If the computer/phone/tv or any other media device is used to break marriage vows or house rules, I will remove that media from my house.

If a video game or recreation interfears with my marriage, I will remove that video game or recreation.

If I feel bad or uncomfortable because of the actions of another person, I will let that person know, in a non threatening assertive manner, how I feel.

If a selfish demand is made by my spouse or child I will not honor that selfish demand.

If I am asked to keep a secret, I will let the person know that I will not keep their secret if I am not comfortable with it.

If I am assulted, I will call the police.

If I notice that I am trying to control or manipulate I will take a time out, and rethink my situation and strategy.

If I feel an angry outburst is about to occur from me or my spouse I will remove myself until i am able to negotiate calmly.

Ws

Been following your thread. Good post from Mark 1952 about personal and marital boundaries. It starts about a third of the way down the page and has two parts. Well worth the read.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1908971&page=4


Hope it helps.

Nesre

Very good thread, I will keep looking at it.

I have also been reading self help books, and listening to tapes. I have incorporated some of those things also.

In No. More Mr. Nice Guy and Hold on to your N.U.T.s they want me to identify my own needs that I have power to enforce which will make me happy. For example some needs can be: I will Be faithful to my god, or I will go out with the guys once a month. these may be needs that only I can fulfill, and I do not let others compromise them.

In a Dr. John Lund talk called Love One Another he states that there are two types of expectations. One expectation is something you expect of yourself, and we will call these goals. The other expectation is one you want other to do for you, and we will call these wishes. You can acheive goals, but wishes may never come true.

All books and talks state that if these boundaries/goals/N.U.Ts are violated then I can become resentful. On the other hand it gives me charge to chase after my own happiness.

If I incorporate boundaries into this it is like I am giving a plan of action if my goals/N.U.Ts/boundaries are crossed. The things that I should have control over, but I let them get mashed. By communicating that i have bondaries and here they are, will keep me a happy person.

Again thanks for the thread. I might even print it out and read it a couple times during our Uninterrupted time together.

Bumped to see how you're doing?

Bwahahaha!

Actually I am doing great. I was going to post yesterday, but had to go to a meeting! How dare work interfere!

My WW came home from sisters completely changed. She wants to do everything she can to fix our marriage. We are reading His Needs Her Needs for 2 hours together each day. We will also do budget, or a small project together to hit the 20 hour mark. Last weekend we put up a magnet board on the wall for the kids and glued magnets on cars and planes so they can build a city.

I am still improving my boundaries, and expressing them to my wife the things that will build resentment in me.

She is seeing our pastor for spiritual guidance, and we are reading bible together each night.

We will go to the counselor soon, this time we have a couple recommendations. We have also limited her time to 1 hour a day on the computer, with supervision, deleted her Facebook account (her idea), blocked facebook , twitter and myspace, and removed World of Warcraft from the computers.

I am feeling great, and she seems to feel great too. We do have our down times, and I have a tough time seeing her happy, like nothing has ever happened, but that is how I want to see her right? Happy in her marriage?

The advice here is great, my family has been keeping track, and I still want to update and participate! Thanks Bit!

In a couple weeks I will introduce my FWW to this site, right now Im a little hesitant. The quick turn around on her part threw a red flag. I am happy, but still tip toeing around and snooping.

WONDERFUL !!



This is an excellent idea. Good for you.

One more week of things going pretty good. We are still hitting that 20+ hours a week, but i will admit, sometimes we are together just watching TV and cuddling during our supposed undivided attention time. We agreed that we do not need to get in that rut right now, and are getting back to doing constructive things.

Just to show how things have changed, the kids are starting to go to their mom for help. They go to her for a drink of water now, and just to talk. They have been behaving better than ever, and even play around her legs. They aren't so attached to either of us and are more secure just going on their own.

I am noticing that we have been slipping into our previous roles already. She isn't being O&H with me, not one of my needs, but it builds up inside her and resents me. I will withdraw a little, I don't know why, I just do. Its only been 2 weeks, and things are good, but that makes it easier to fall back into bad habits.

So far her actions seem genuine, and I like it. My red flags are turning into pink flags. Not quite salmon, and certainly not white.

How's it going wheels? Seen you around...bumping to see how things are going...

Its been about 2 months since exposure, and things are going great. My W and I have been working on MB concepts here and there. We have read HNHN and been spending over 15+ hours together. We are doing P90X together, doing projects around the house together, and even working on the yard together.

I am still triggered by her computer usage, especially when she wanted to get on FB one time, but it is still blocked. I have also been working on my boundaries to see what I need to do to protect myself, and not build up any resentment.

Overall my trust in her is going up, and our LB$ are getting fuller. I still keep our finances seperate, but I think it might be permanent, and she doent know my passwords. Mostly because my passwords are so dang long! As far as I can tell there hasn't been any contact either. No emails, and no text messages.

Great, Wheels; thanks for telling us how things are going!

That is great news Wheels. I am very happy for you. Keep up the good work.

Just want to give a bit of an update on my status. I know sapph post here a bit (very proud of her she keeps me informed on what is going on), but I haven't posted due to school, and I can focus on work again. Thanks to the holidays I can slow down a bit at work, and school is done (last final forever, I got a Masters in Electrical Engineering).

Just to let you know Sapph and I have settled down into a good routine. We spend almost 2 or more quality hours a day with each other, the most on Sunday, to get about 15-20 hours a week with each other. We often read books, go out, or something just to spend time with each other. I really miss playing my games (new WoW expansion came out), but for the sake of my marriage I am not going to let that game be played in my house, let alone any game that Sapph can spend time on with other people than myself.

I realize that we never really LB each other, even before the affair and right now. We just do not have that type of marriage, however we often let each other know what needs are not being met. We will talk and say, "Hey, i need you to meet this need." So i think we are doing really well trying to meet each others needs, stopping the LB, and spending quality time with each other.

We are back to where we were four years ago in the kissy kissy smoochee smoochee honeymoon phase where people think we were just married (wer were like that for probably the first 5 years of our marriage), and we wonder why our friends and neighbors never really acknowlege their spouses in public. I guess we are just overly affectionate towards one another. Its better than the alternative.

However, some old habbits are hard to break. I feel that I have trained myself to not expect Sapph to do anything for me or the kids. I have heard so many lies during the affair that I still have a tough time discerning what was a lie and what was the truth. For instance she would say that I was raising the bar too high for her and it was ruining her love for me. Apparently that was a lie, but I heard it so much that I still believe it even though I know she was trying to get me to stay out of her affair. I still try make sure I dont raise the bar, but she insitst that it is what she wants now. I see it in a different light. She has never liked me pushing her, even before the marriage, but now she asks me to do it. I have been trained over 8 years not to "push" her and now she wants me to push her and have expectations of her? I just dont get it what if I do and she resents me and we wind up where we were a year, two years ago.

Its kind of scary because now I live with this feeling (false thoughts that I make up myself) that if anything in our marriage goes wrong, Sapph will cheat on me and leave. I try to be the perfect husband, but that might ruin things too. Marriage after an affair is the most difficult balance trick ever. I have to contantly try to reel her in, if I become complacent or omit something then there is the possibility that she will go off again.

So heres to the continual work at being married. Gotta break bad habits, and keep the good all the time.

howdy Wheels!! Thanks for the update. I think your wife, Sapphire, ROCKS!

Thanks! Ill tell her.

yeah she is spunky! She has a fire so much against adultry that it makes her sick to hear some of these stories. She has really improved herself, and built some really good boundaries.

Sounds like you guys are doing great, WS, and sounds like you are ready to move over to the "In Recovery" board

Where has Sapph been hiding? Tell her we miss her

bump

Holy mother of moses!!! I can't beleive that it has been over two years since my last post on these boards!

I just want to give a large shout out thank you to the wonderful people on these boards who have helped strengthen my relationship with my wife. What happened 3 years ago was totally forgotten by my lovely wife sapphire. Here's the story.

My FWW's sister, my sister in-law, called Sapph and said, "Remember OM?"....

Sapph sat there completly dumb founded, she did not know his name, and said "Who?"

Her sister actually had to explain to Sapph what happened three years ago. Because her sister is having feelings for another man at work, and she does not want to ruin her marriage. She figured Sapph was the person to go to, to save her marriage. That is a story for another post.

Anyhow I wanted to show how much I have won my wife back, and what fighting for your marriage can do.

We have stuck with 15 hours of Quality time together each week (planned weekly in our weekly plan sheet). We have set very strong boundaries in our relationship, so much so that it is routine. We found new activities together to do. And we attend and train others on self motivation weekly. We use POJA, and all sorts of other training here.

Both of us over the years have trained ourselves to be positive and proactive people, outside the scope of marriage builders, but built on marriage builders principles. Sapph has become a respected leader of hundreds of others in her business, and her busniness has multiplied itself (she does Mary Kay now, drives free, and earns $50,000+ each year).

All this because I came here to save my marriage, and in the end it paid off.

BTW....we will be having our 3rd kid this Tuesday....so congratualtions to us! Pepper, and Melody you are amazing people keep it up!

A BABY is arriving !!!

We're all honorary Godparents

I wondered what happened to you guys. Congrats on the baby!! Tell Sapph we said hi!!!!!

I was thinking the same.

Congratulations!!!!

Thanks for the update. Really good and satisfying to scan this thread from the beginning and see how well exposure worked. Textbook MB recovery.

Godspeed,

Mr. Wondering

Wheels and Sapphire! I am not sure I ever posted to either of you, but sure "know" you! Nice to hear such good news. Bless your young hearts (yep, young un's)! Pass on to Sapph that a random person out here misses her feisty, sassy posts.

PS: Congrads on the BABY!!!

I have been wondering how you guys have been. I am so glad to read this amazing update. You two may not have shown many what CAN be accomplished when you actually work the program.

Congrats on the baby.