I am a WW who had an affair with a co-worker 15 years my junior. When BH discovered affair, we went to counseling and I changed departments to get away from the OM. However, I continue to have contact with OM due to work. We cannot afford for me to quit my job, and I am in a highly specialized profession and have been unable to find alternate employment. BH does not want me to quit my job, but I'm finding it difficult to work on my marriage with so many triggers. BH does not know that we are still in contact, and has told me that he would leave me if we were. So I cannot explain to him why I really need to quit my job. In addition, I cannot share my withdrawal with BH or he would leave me. So I continue to work and try to maintain my marriage while having these conflicting emotions that are sabotaging my efforts. Please help.
So I cannot explain to him why I really need to quit my job. In addition, I cannot share my withdrawal with BH or he would leave me. So I continue to work and try to maintain my marriage while having these conflicting emotions that are sabotaging my efforts. Please help.
So you are tricking him into staying married to you? WHY?? ARe you usually this cruel?
The solution is to stop being a coward and tell your H you can't stay there. Tell him why. Then go to Human Resources and tell them about your affair and ask them to transfer you or take a leave of absence.
In the meantime, get your resume out there and start looking for a job.
Is the OM married and does wife know what you have done? If not, she needs to know so she can protect herself and her children from you and her H.
No physical contact. And you're right--I am a coward. I am afraid of losing my marriage because of my fog, but I can't escape the fog without losing my marriage.
I guess I'm not getting this. What do you mean that you can't share your withdrawal with your husband? If you are still in contact with the OM, then you are not in withdrawal.
Also I'm not buying that there is no physical contact.
There is no physical contact. We only see each other during working hours at work. As for withdrawal, what I'm referring to is trying to keep my distance from the OM and keep my boundaries. It is really difficult to do so when he is always around.
I am a WW who had an affair with a co-worker 15 years my junior.
I'm a BH whose FWW also had an A with an OM over a decade younger than she was. Based what I went through with her at the time (she continued working with OM for a few months), I would strongly suggest the following:
1. Start being honest with your BH. You're not doing this now, and he's likely going crazy with the disconnect between what you say you're doing and what his suspicions are about what is actually happening.
2. Take positive, definite and noticeable steps to change jobs ASAP. Without delay. Like as soon as you read this.
3. Do at least one noticeable thing every day to show your H that (a) you care about him, and (2) you understand and care about how your choices have adversely affected him.
No physical contact. And you're right--I am a coward. I am afraid of losing my marriage because of my fog, but I can't escape the fog without losing my marriage.
huh? That is a foggy statement... The fact is that your H needs the truth. He has a right to know that you can't avoid the OM at work and that recovery will be impossible. If he leaves, he leaves.
You have nothing to lose because your marriage won't survive this way.
There is no physical contact. We only see each other during working hours at work. As for withdrawal, what I'm referring to is trying to keep my distance from the OM and keep my boundaries. It is really difficult to do so when he is always around.
Honesty is the solution, not more lies and not more secrets.
Thank you all so much for your advice and your candor. We have been married for 15 years with 2 kids. I know that honesty is the solution, but the problem is that my head and my heart are in two different places right now. My head wants the marriage; my heart wants the affair. I trust my head, not my heart. The heart is what's holding me back from doing what I know I need to do.
Thank you all so much for your advice and your candor. We have been married for 15 years with 2 kids. I know that honesty is the solution, but the problem is that my head and my heart are in two different places right now. My head wants the marriage; my heart wants the affair. I trust my head, not my heart. The heart is what's holding me back from doing what I know I need to do.
BH does not want me to quit my job, but I'm finding it difficult to work on my marriage with so many triggers. BH does not know that we are still in contact, and has told me that he would leave me if we were. So I cannot explain to him why I really need to quit my job. In addition, I cannot share my withdrawal with BH or he would leave me. So I continue to work and try to maintain my marriage while having these conflicting emotions that are sabotaging my efforts. Please help.
Look at what you've written. Your BH is willing to stay with you after an A with a co-worker, wants you to stay in contact with him, but says he'll leave you if he finds further evidence of hanky-panky. That makes no sense. Why would he allow you, a wayward wife, to stay in the same job that contributed to your A? He appears to be prioritizing the family budget over your M. That needs to change.
How old are you, anyway?? You are being treated like a child and you're allowing yourself to be. "Okay, you were bad, don't do it again or you're really going to get it." That changes nothing, as you have realized. You are one glance away from being up to your eyeballs in infidelity again. The A was/is like crack to you, and you go daily into the crack house and look at your drug.
You know yourself well enough to know that the A is in danger of resuming. Your H needs to know that as well. Stop with the immature hiding of the facts. You need to woman-up and tell him what you've told us, and that you have to leave your job to help save your M. If you don't, the chance is good that he's going to have to learn to live on one budget, after all. Because your M will end.
Srpingchicken, I had an a with a younger OM co-worker four years ago. I was afraid to tell my H. In fact, I lied about it to quite a few people.
You say your head and heart are in two places. I will tell you - follow what is right. It is hard. My H packed his bags and left the last time I had contact with the OM. It wasn't because I told him. It was because he found out on his own. And that WILL happen. Your H will find out, and that will be worse that honesty.
I am also in a specialized field - I am a general music teacher. It is terribly hard to find a job. But there is no way to work with the OM. Even if you have to do something different - secretarial, sales, receptionist, ANYTHING - for awhile, you cannot work with him. You are right. There is not way to be around him and recover your M or recover personally.
The weekend is coming. Tell your H today/tonight. Tell him that you no there is no excuse for not telling him sooner. Tell him you cannot work with OM around. Fall on his mercy. He may get very very angry. He may walk out. But he may very well walk back in my the end of the weekend.
Read everything you can here. If you want to know more about my story, I will tell you anything you want to know, but read the MB stuff.
I KNOW your mind is going in a million directions, but the RIGHT thing is always the right thing to do. The more deception and lying there is, the worse it will get. EVERYTHING has to be out. It is the only way.
No physical contact. And you're right--I am a coward. I am afraid of losing my marriage because of my fog, but I can't escape the fog without losing my marriage.
Let's look at the possible conversation:
WW: "Honey, I realize that it is impossible for me to continue to work at my job because the danger to our M is too great as long as OM is working there."
BH: "Okay, that's it - I warned you that I would leave you if you decided you didn't want to keep working with OM! I'm outta here! To he77 with our years together, to he77 with having an intact family under one roof!"
Thank you SO much for sharing your stories with me. It gives me hope. I am 41, the OM is 26. My husband seems to have adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Unfortunately, that only makes it easier to keep lying. Lying by omission is every bit as bad as the alternative. I have two young children who I'm looking out for. I am so afraid of destroying their world for what I suspect may just be a midlife crisis. I just keep hoping that one day my feelings for the OM will go away. He's very young and I hope that I will wise up. So far, though, I'm having a hard time keeping my marriage going while waiting to wise up. It is so helpful to me to hear from people who have been where I am and who have come out on the other side. I feel so alone.
Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?
In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.
Hello, I am new here and haven't yet gotten the chance to tell my story but I just had to respond to this thread. I am following it closely as our BH's seem to have something in common. Unlike you, I live far away from the OM and there is no chance of contact so I am not triggered quite as readily; however, I can relate to your fear of telling your husband. My husband asks me often if I still miss OM. When I tried to answer honestly in the past that I did but it was fading, he became so enraged. I also KNOW that my head is in the right place but sometimes my heart thinks fondly of the OM. I can't tell my husband his self esteem is so low already (thanks in a large part to me) and he thinks I SHOULD feel a certain way and doesn't want to consider the fact that I can't really control my feelings. Even with no contact, it is hard so I can't even imagine how you are able to handle it.
You wrote. My head wants the marriage; my heart wants the affair.
Actually your Head wants the marriage, but your addiction to OM wants the affair.
I not sure your husband has really taken a don't ask don't tell policy, when I blithely allowed my Wife to continue to work with OM after D-day it was because I was too numb to react, to the outside world it might have seemed like indifference.
Thank you SO much for sharing your stories with me. It gives me hope. I am 41, the OM is 26. My husband seems to have adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Unfortunately, that only makes it easier to keep lying. Lying by omission is every bit as bad as the alternative. I have two young children who I'm looking out for. I am so afraid of destroying their world for what I suspect may just be a midlife crisis. I just keep hoping that one day my feelings for the OM will go away. He's very young and I hope that I will wise up. So far, though, I'm having a hard time keeping my marriage going while waiting to wise up. It is so helpful to me to hear from people who have been where I am and who have come out on the other side. I feel so alone.
Your chances for saving your M is very good, given your desire to stay in it and not with your OM. I don't think your H is aware of the danger that your M faces if you continue to work with OM. You will need to man the ship here, and do what it takes to keep your M intact.
Your desire to stay in your M is noble; however, the chance of keeping it intact dwindles as you maintain contact with OM. Can you talk to your HR dept and be transferred to another place that would remove contact? Barring that, I think your best bet is to find other employment. Sucks, but it's one of the hazards of conducting an A.
Here is a truth that doesn't get told much: If you shared your heart and your body with the OM, coupled with the "thrill" and the "addiction", it doesn't go away overnight. There are times for awhile that you not only have a fond thought of the OM, your body actually starts to respond to the thought of him. Remember being in high school or college and physically aching for someone after a breakup? It takes time, but there is a choice involved too. Thoughts cannot just evaporate. You have to REPLACE those thoughts - with thoughts of family, gratitude for what you have, prayer, the Bible if you are religious. We have to retrain or "renew" our minds. Every day. But it does fae...and then you realize that you don't care. it isn't hate - hate is not the opposite of love. The opposite of love is indifference. Belive it or not, esp if you follow the MB principles and to the RIGHT things, the withdrawal and feelings will become indifference. OM won't even be relevant anymore.
But it starts with complete honesty and NO CONTACT.
It will not disappear by you hoping it will. YOU HAVE to end contact.
It won't just happen. You do have to take action.
IF the best focus for you right now and the thing that will make you see sense is the children, then go with this. FInd out about what fanily split ups do to chldren and the increase in the chance of abuse for children who are involved with their mum's new partner.
It was until my A ended that I became so painfully aware of how much I had neglected them during my A.
I also KNOW that my head is in the right place but sometimes my heart thinks fondly of the OM.
SD, one thing that helps with that is to expose your own affair. Make sure your children, other family members, and most especially the OM's wife, if any, know about it. The more people that know, the more people to hold you accountable.
Having others know about your filthy affair helps take the gloss off of it and puts in a proper perspective. Its hard to romanticize an affair when others are looking at you with disgust on their faces. Its like bringing a crowd of people into the crack house to watch the crack heads get high. It ruins the high!
An affair is a filthy act of degradation, and this realization comes when the fantasy wears off and reality sets in as the addiction dissipates.
Usually when there is an affair it is not the affair that kills the marriage. It is the lies and deceit surrounding the affair.
Affairs can usually be worked through if there is honesty. Lies kill a marriage.
In my time on this forum I have seen many marriages fall apart because the WS hides information from the BS and eventually all the deceit is too much for the BS to bear. Yet it was clear at the beginning that if the WS had "come clean" things would have worked out. But the WS keeps trying to save their own hide and loses everything in that gamble.
Please avoid this tragedy. If your M fails it will be because of your ongoing deceit and lies. Every day you hide the truth is one more day your BH has to think "She was lying to me all that time. I thought we were in recovery and it turns out it was all lies. Just a big farce."
Thoughts cannot just evaporate. You have to REPLACE those thoughts - with thoughts of family, gratitude for what you have, prayer, the Bible if you are religious. We have to retrain or "renew" our minds.
luroosi hit the nail on the head here. The affair has to be replaced with something, and that is a good marriage. An effective recovery includes creating a ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP with your spouse.
ML is right about exposure. We told our famlilies, several friends, our pastors, and I told my boss and a couple of co-workers. I had one friend say, "Why would you even LOOK at OM when you have H??? What were you thinking??" Tell your families, and find some REAL honest friends who will keep you accountable.
I am humbled to even be addressed by MelodyLane. It has prompted me to start my own thread so that I no longer T/J this one.
I have been wanting to do that for awhile but am trying to make sure I put things properly and avoid rewriting history (as much as my foggy brain can).
Lurioosi...we have exposed to everyone on my side, (OM is single, no children and lives far away) Unfortunatley, my friends, family and even BH's family have been privy to much background information prior to this that I didn't get as many 2X4's as I needed to defog completely...another reason to begin a thread here.
Exposure - I'm with that. I told everyone that knew both of us, friends of mine that didn't know both of us and family.
This was so that I had eyes on me everywhere in case I got tempted - my H was reluctant at first for me to do so - he was ashamed. I took all the shame and let him know that he need not feel shame.
Thank you to all of your for your advice. It helps so much. I've been seeing a counselor, but it really helps to hear from people who have walked in my shoes. I really appreciated the perspectives of lurioosi2 and sunnydaze. I DO have a physical reaction to thoughts of him, and I feel this is as powerful of an addiction as drugs. I have told my counselor many times that I wish I were addicted to meth because it is more socially acceptable and there are 12-step programs to help. I know that the only way out is NC. I told the OM at work today that I could not continue like this and that I was telling my husband. The OM seems to think that we can continue to work together, just not contact each other. We've tried this before, but he always ends up contacting me eventually. Plus, there are so many triggers for me. We have mutual friends there. He is also quite attractive, and people remind me of that all the time. Part of me wants to believe that I can keep working there and insist on NC and re-build my marriage, and part of me thinks that will be impossible. Can I stay there with NC and not tell my BH how hard it is? How can you go through withdrawal by yourself without involving your BH while resisting the urge to relapse? Any ideas?
One more thing--it is such a powerful addiction that even the thought of giving him up makes me cry. I could barely work today without sobbing at the thought of it. It's crazy. Please tell me that this is normal and that I can re-connect with my husband again. I need some hope.
Can I stay there with NC and not tell my BH how hard it is? How can you go through withdrawal by yourself without involving your BH while resisting the urge to relapse? Any ideas?
NC means you don't work together. If you work together, you are in contact. You can't go through withdrawal until one of you leaves the job. You H does need to be involved. He needs to know everything.
No physical contact. And you're right--I am a coward. I am afraid of losing my marriage because of my fog, but I can't escape the fog without losing my marriage.
Spring,
With all due respect, this is a cowardly cop-out.
Your marriage will not survive with ongoing lies and ongoing contact. And your affair is likely to resume at some point to boot. You MUST:
1. Go to complete and perpetual NC with your OM no matter what. This is the ONLY way to get through the �fog� and the withdrawal�you will never escape either as long as you continue to see OM, even �platonically�. If true NC means changing jobs or possible financial hardship, then so be it. Your marriage, which you claim to be in fear of �losing�, is completely hopeless if you continue to have ANY ongoing contact with OM.
2. TELL YOUR BH THE FULL & COMPLETE TRUTH. Truth is the only disinfectant here. Yes, he may leave you. But, you are entirely responsible for your own actions and you did cheat (and continue to maintain secret contact)�you already gave him a free ticket out if he chooses to use it. Right now you are �keeping� him (temporarily) under deceit and are being terrible unfair and disrespectful to him.
Your marriage can NEVER truly recover under the current circumstances.
...but the problem is that my head and my heart are in two different places right now. My head wants the marriage; my heart wants the affair. I trust my head, not my heart. The heart is what's holding me back from doing what I know I need to do.
I know a thing or two about the "heart" of a WW. You are still emotionally addicted to your OM (that is the "heart" problem here). The ONLY way to break this is via COMPLETE & PERPETUAL NC with OM. Then, you can start getting your heart where your head is (and where it SHOULD BE)...which is with your BH and your marriage.
Usually when there is an affair it is not the affair that kills the marriage. It is the lies and deceit surrounding the affair.
Affairs can usually be worked through if there is honesty. Lies kill a marriage.
In my time on this forum I have seen many marriages fall apart because the WS hides information from the BS and eventually all the deceit is too much for the BS to bear. Yet it was clear at the beginning that if the WS had "come clean" things would have worked out. But the WS keeps trying to save their own hide and loses everything in that gamble.
Please avoid this tragedy. If your M fails it will be because of your ongoing deceit and lies. Every day you hide the truth is one more day your BH has to think "She was lying to me all that time. I thought we were in recovery and it turns out it was all lies. Just a big farce."
TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER WRITTEN.
It's the lying, deceit, and cover-up/CYA'ing that kills the marriage far more efectively than even an affair does.
...but the problem is that my head and my heart are in two different places right now. My head wants the marriage; my heart wants the affair. I trust my head, not my heart. The heart is what's holding me back from doing what I know I need to do.
That is cute and winsome, but we are grown ups here. If you are old enough to drive a car you are old enough to know not to "follow your heart." That is silly teenager nonsense. Of course you don't "follow your heart." If you have feelings that are stupid, a big girl puts those feelings aside.
spring, NC is the only way. You cannot see him again. Yes, you will cry. You will feel an aching hole. You will want to look for his car at Wal Mart. It will take everything you have not to relive the experience. But you will replace those thoughts. You will dry your tears. You will throw yourself into working on your marriage. You will turn away from the thoughts of the OM. And then you will notice that the ache is less, the tears haven't come in awhile, and your H is waaaay more with thinking about than OM ever was.
Don't trust your feelings. Fix your gaze squarely on what is right. And do it. Every day. I PROMISE that you will never ever regret doing what is right.
One more thing--it is such a powerful addiction that even the thought of giving him up makes me cry. I could barely work today without sobbing at the thought of it. It's crazy. Please tell me that this is normal and that I can re-connect with my husband again. I need some hope.
Spring,
Every emotionally-addicted WS feels EXACTLY like the above. It is normal at the time. They are enslaved by their feelings and are sure that 'following their heart' is the only path to future happiness and and it is 'hopeless' to reconnect with their BS.
This is NOT TRUE. Don't fall for the siren song of personal destruction.
I urge you to take ACTION. You know the actions you need to take. ACTIONS PRECEDE FEELINGS.
Your feelings for the Om will dissapate and you will regain them with your BH...where they should always have been in the first place.
even the thought of giving him up makes me cry. I could barely work today without sobbing at the thought of it. It's crazy. Please tell me that this is normal and that I can re-connect with my husband again. I need some hope.
Twice the crying took place with my wife over OM1 and OM2, it was a long time ago, but she is in love with me now. So it is possible.
At that time I was really stupid though, I just sucked it up and went to work everyday, all the while I felt utterly empty and worthless inside.
You will need to plan A yourself, but plan A is impossible with the colossal lies you are living now.
One question, can you imagine yourself with your husband holding onto these lies 2 years from now, 5? 10?
Please tell me that this is normal and that I can re-connect with my husband again. I need some hope.
Ok, I will tell you. It is normal. You are addicted to a variant of the reward brain chemical dopamine. The infatuation variant is called PEA, or phenylethylamine. This is the chemical that gives you extra energy, feelings of euphoria, excitement and all that stuff about which you are well acquainted.
Eventually the chemical quits being produced either during continued contact or after no contact, and the latter is quicker. Ever hear of the seven year itch? This means that the infatuation has died and now what.
A few rare people can sustain it forever. And that is with reinforcement. Without contact, it dies out way quicker and you wake up one morning and go, OMG! Yea, like that. Then you understand the coyote ugly joke way better.
How quick? Depends on the individual. And it depends on if it is a good infatuation or a bad one. A bad one is affair based because of all the betrayal and lying that goes on, both what you say and what you think. And what you hear from the snake OM that violates common sense. Of even more importance is that you are projecting on the other person who you want them to be instead of who they really are. It is not uncommon for affairees to be lying their teeth off to each other so they get to maintain their fix.
Even with contact, you are likely to wake up one less than fine morning and go uh oh, what the blank have done? Might be a few months or a few years down the road.
Last time I was infatuated, it took me six weeks to figure out the woman was a snake. I bailed (yes it hurt) and it was about six weeks before I felt good and four months before I was completely dried out and no reaction when I thought about her, which became increasingly rare. One sorta, maybe, rule is that the time of withdrawal is about equal to the length of the infatuation. I have no scientific basis to hang that on.
Problem is that PEA can be reignited at a later date for a shorter period of time. That is the way dopamine works. High School Reunions are famous for starting affairs that go nowhere except an emotional train wreck.
Continued contact OF ANY SORT will continue to reinforce and withdrawal is tough, really, really tough. This is why it is supremely important for no contact, to hasten the demise of the dopamine PEA production in the brain. When it stops being produced, it is over. Dead as a hammer.
Dr. Harley's concept of falling in love and staying in love is based on inducing the production of PEA dopamine in the brain for both parties who follow his program. It really works. It really, really works. I mean to the point where you are now and trust me, EVEN BETTER! Why, because there is no guilt to get in the way of a good time by all.
And if you keep up with his program, you keep getting the dopamine fix indefinitely instead of however many years then Poof!
Larry, that really does help. The OM I suppose is my drug of choice and I imagine that like any addict I am using him to mask some other problem in my life. And, like any other drug, you gradually develop an immunity to it, and that is probably when you have your "WTF was I thinking moment".
I also liked SDCW's reference to a siren song. I feel like the OM is my Medusa and the urge to look is so powerful.
The OM I suppose is my drug of choice and I imagine that like any addict I am using him to mask some other problem in my life. And, like any other drug, you gradually develop an immunity to it, and that is probably when you have your "WTF was I thinking moment".
NO!
Addicts use drugs because they like the HIGH. I am a recovering drug addict with over 25 years of clean time. I did NOT use drugs because I had other problems in my life! I drank and used drugs because I liked how they made me feel!
It's really not that complicated.
And it's not that complicated to make the right choices either!
ML, nobody who has an addiction behaves responsibly. However, I appreciate the tough love. Harsh, but true.
Why, yes they do. Behaving irresponsibly is always a choice. People with addictions make responsible choices every day. And a grown woman knows better than to "follow her heart."
Larry, that really does help. The OM I suppose is my drug of choice and I imagine that like any addict I am using him to mask some other problem in my life. And, like any other drug, you gradually develop an immunity to it, and that is probably when you have your "WTF was I thinking moment".
I also liked SDCW's reference to a siren song. I feel like the OM is my Medusa and the urge to look is so powerful.
Well, close and a good analogy. From a science POV, it just stops being produced. But after a period of time, it can be reignited. Second time around, it doesn't last as long.
Rational thought helps too, which is why I try to spread the word on what it is. Kinda ruins the mystery.
And SC, remember my example. I was infatuated. Full blow "In LUVE" and I bailed. And it wasn't even an affair, but it sure as heck wasn't good for me. Not as bad as an affair, but bad.
I've been reading this post and needed to respond. As a WW, what I can't understand is the lack of responsibility my BS feels for the A. If our marriage were a good and happy place, then I would not have looked outside the M to find my happiness. We've talked and argued about the OM, and while I hear this talk about "fog," I believed that he was and is my soul mate. The pain of NC is unbearable and I don't think that I can sustain it. I've agreed to MC for my husband, but why? He's not changing. I don't believe that my kids will suffer and I think that the outing is barbaric. Why should Springchicken quit her job? That's insane, especially in this economy. This isn't a fairy tale. This is reality. Maybe I'm just feeling that if the marriage were the right place for me, this wouldn't have happened. If springchicken were happy in her marriage, this wouldn't have happened. I believe that there is plenty to be said for following your heart. Kids are resilient and simply need to be loved by their parents - who don't necessarily have to live under the same roof. Why force 2 people to be together when apparently, they've grown apart?
I've been reading this post and needed to respond. As a WW, what I can't understand is the lack of responsibility my BS feels for the A. If our marriage were a good and happy place, then I would not have looked outside the M to find my happiness. We've talked and argued about the OM, and while I hear this talk about "fog," I believed that he was and is my soul mate. The pain of NC is unbearable and I don't think that I can sustain it. I've agreed to MC for my husband, but why? He's not changing. I don't believe that my kids will suffer and I think that the outing is barbaric. Why should Springchicken quit her job? That's insane, especially in this economy. This isn't a fairy tale. This is reality. Maybe I'm just feeling that if the marriage were the right place for me, this wouldn't have happened. If springchicken were happy in her marriage, this wouldn't have happened. I believe that there is plenty to be said for following your heart. Kids are resilient and simply need to be loved by their parents - who don't necessarily have to live under the same roof. Why force 2 people to be together when apparently, they've grown apart?
Lost in space is apt, I agree.
Kids are resilient. Yea, they survive. And they watch their role models. They see everything.
Anyway, why don't you start your own thread. Before you do that, go read a couple of posts under Notable Posts. And please, realize that you are in the "Fog" of an addiction.
Your brain is infested with chemicals that distort your vision and muddle your thinking.
I can prove that, but not to the addled until the spell diminishes and they face the falsehood of their fantasy and the train wreck they have made out of the lives of everyone around them including themselves.
You are not unique. Not be a long shot. Just messed up and don't know it. And every word you have said, every ... single ... word ... has been said before, many times and those who have said them, end up regretting every word.
And I know for a fact that you don't even believe what you are saying in that deep, dark place where you really live.
The worst lie ever told is the one you tell yourself.
Addicts use drugs because they like the HIGH. I am a recovering drug addict with over 25 years of clean time. I did NOT use drugs because I had other problems in my life! I drank and used drugs because I liked how they made me feel!
Since I am holding forth from the science lab, let me just totally agree with TST.
SC, it is obvious you don't understand addictions. The addict is getting something FROM the substances or thing that is addicting, they ain't running from anything. Where on earth did you pick up that doggerel you were talking about?
When you get an infatuation, you are getting pleasure from the infatuation, a natural high.
Never mind that an infatuation is based on an unreal picture of who the other person is. See, a really good infatuation is when you project onto that other person all of your expectations and they project back to you. You both lie your face off to prove you are who the other one wants. It is all about getting your high from your addiction. Your drug fix.
And the biggest dang lies are the ones you tell yourself.
Larry, that really does help. The OM I suppose is my drug of choice and I imagine that like any addict I am using him to mask some other problem in my life. And, like any other drug, you gradually develop an immunity to it, and that is probably when you have your "WTF was I thinking moment".
I also liked SDCW's reference to a siren song. I feel like the OM is my Medusa and the urge to look is so powerful.
Spring,
Let me say this first as a preface: I applaud and commend you for coming here, admitting your affair, and facing your issues. You have shown far more courage than the vast majority of wayward spouses do. I wish my then-WW would have done half of what you have.
You, because of the brain chemicals and emotional state you are in right now, can�t see the forest for the trees. Let me give you two OUTSIDE-LOOKING-IN perspectives [tough love here] :
The first is from the viewpoint of the BS. I was, like your husband, a BH. My wife cheated on me just like you cheated on him (to your credit, you have shown FAR more honesty and introspection than she ever did). I can tell you personally that you have devalued, disrespected, violated, and hurt your husband FAR MORE than you can possibly fathom at this point. You probably think all the standard WW rationalizations (�he doesn�t care anyway�, �he didn�t pay enough attention to me�, �I can�t help how I feel�, etc., etc., yada, yada, yada�) This is all NONSENSE and irrelevant. You have and are continuing to hurt your husband and kids in horrible ways that you would never ever want done to you. Do you get that???? I feel more empathy for this man, whom I do not even know, than you do right now�.and that should BOTHER YOU.
The second is from a neutral 3rd-party observer. Do you realize how freakin� INSANE you are acting? Even putting aside the obvious moral and emotional transgressions involved here? Do you really think it is a good and wise idea in the long-term to destroy your character, your marriage, and your children to indulge some silly school-girl infatuation with a man 15 years younger than you? Are you nuts??? Do you really think this OM is gonna give a crap about you after he�s bored with the hot, secretive sex? Is he really someone you would consider dating if you were single and emotionally-stable right now? Do you really think there is a serious �future� here with someone who is clearly using you? Do you really think that a man who would knowingly cheat with a married-woman is a good and honorable man worth having? Hello!!!!! Please wake up!!!!!!
I am trying to resist the temptation to too badly here, but please understand how hurtful and selfish you are being to those who LOVE YOU. You will start FEELING BETTER after you start DOING BETTER!
�Following your feelings, in the absence of your values and standards, is the surest road to personal ruin.� --Dr. Gary Chapman
lostinspace, I don't want to derail SC's thread, but I am a FWW. My M stunk at the time of my A. But you know who chose to cheat? ME. And only ME. My A was MY choice and MY responsibility. Until you realize that, the fog gets deeper and deeper. Your H may be responsible for part of the M, but he is in no way culpable for YOUR choice to cheat. Those are the facts. If you don't want to be forced together, if you want someone else, DIVORCE FIRST. And I don't mean separate or file or get in the process...I mean an actual divorce.
Thank you Larry and SDCW! I actually LOL'ed at SDCW's post. I needed to be beaten down. I KNOW I am acting insane. On the outside, I am probably one of the most responsible, well-respected professionals you would ever meet. It's only on the inside that I'm a mess. I'm just trying desperately to get my inside to go back to match the outside. And thanks for the words of encouragement from everyone. The tough love is harsh, but necessary, and the encouragement softens the blow. Lost in Space, believe me, I have had, and am struggling with the same thoughts that you are having. It's so easy to say it's HIS fault, that our M is dead, that we've grown apart (how true), and that I'll be happier with the OM. That is the lie that I'm trying to fight. But I know in my heart that if I left my M for the OM, those same things would happen with him. Don't you agree? And then I've thrown away an otherwise good M for what? My H is a wonderful man. We share the same career. Have always had a good M. Rarely fight. Laugh a lot together. We've just grown apart. Right now he feels more like a brother to me than a romantic partner. It would be so much easier if my H were an abusive man, and I have so wished for that. It makes the "choice" so much easier.
And, TST and Larry, you're right, I don't understand addiction at all. I've always assumed people used because they wanted to escape their lives. I'm not sure why I decided to start the A. But I definitely believe it's destroying my life as surely as any drug could. And I do believe I'm addicted to the OM. I have never done drugs because I knew they would ruin my life. I never had the slightest idea that another person could have the same effect. Those of you with experience of addiction, please help me understand. If I'm not missing something from within,and I'm only chasing the high, how do I learn to live without it when I know it's out there? I also struggle with alcohol (it's only gotten worse throughout the A), and I want to know. How do you learn to live without out it when you know it's out there and it's "socially acceptable"? Know what I mean? It's socially acceptable to drink and it's socially acceptable to divorce. I'm not saying I want either--I don't--but it makes it more difficult to resist the temptation. Especially when you can tell yourself "it's only one drink," or "it's only one e-mail." You think, "what's the harm in that, I can control it."
And please continue to knock some sense into me! I have to stay strong to resist the temptation of the OM. I suspect he may be using me, I suspect that he'll drop me as soon as I'm free, we are 15 YEARS APART in age--but he says all the right things. He "loves" me, he's never felt this way about anyone, I understand him, and no one ever has before, blah, blah, blah.
Lurioosi, I agree with you. It's so much easier to blame the M than to blame myself. And I do believe that women don't leave without an escape plan. But, at the end of the day, I chose to have the A rather than focus on my M and try to fix it. I realize that if my M fails, I am going to have to face life on my own and not rely on the cushion of the OM. I would NEVER have the strength to leave my M if it weren't for the presence of the OM in my life. I had never even considered it. I knew our M was in a bad state, but it wasn't until the OM appeared that I considered bailing on it. That was my fault. It was a cowardly way of dealing with my marital woes. If my marriage was that bad to begin with, I should have faced the truth and left on my own, rather than putting my H and my kids through he77. Obviously, I do not have that strong of character.
. I'm just trying desperately to get my inside to go back to match the outside. And thanks for the words of encouragement from everyone.
This is a nonsensical avoidance tactic, SC. Waiting for your feelings to line up with your head is a way to avoid making change FOREVER since feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS. Waiting for a magic feeling to invade you against your will is unrealistic. And I know you are old enough to know better.
What will effect the change is making the decision to change. And that can be done TODAY. There is no reason to put it off for another minute.
On the outside, I am probably one of the most responsible, well-respected professionals you would ever meet. It's only on the inside that I'm a mess.
Oh My are you fooling yourself!
If you think your professional and responsible on the outside you are delusional.
YOU HAD AN AFFAIR WITH A CO-WORKER!
I'm sorry but that's not professional OR responsible.
Now you are an irresponsible woman at work and in your profession! ON THE OUTSIDE TOO! If you think for one second that nearly everyone you work with or asssociate with in your profession isn't aware that you have been having an A then you're fooling yourself terribly. And if you think OM hasn't told other men at work or elsewhere that he's had you then , again, you are naive
If you were a true professional you would resign your position immediately and go NC immediately.
Obviously, I do not have that strong of character.
My FWH used to say this too, about his A. I think it's a cop out. He'd say, 'I'm not as strong as you' ...... that makes me sound like the hero or something.
I'm far from the hero, I'm not necessarily the stronger one ...........
Springchicken - why do you say you don't have that strong of character? Why do you demean yourself and your feelings? Becuase you weren't able to leave your M flat? Because you weren't sure that was what you wanted. You just said you knew your M was in a bad state. So - the choice was to have the A or get divorced or maybe the A showed you that you could find love somewhere else and allow you to value yourself. Not everyone that has an A is a bad person of low moral character willing to disregard the feelings of everyone else for their 10 minutes of the high.
Kids are resilient - they copy their role models? So it is better for them to see their parents in an unhappy M, than try and find some way to be happy and move on. And why is the A their business? Do you have a wonderful romantic night with your H and get up and tell your kids? Is it their business what goes on in your bedroom? Ever? Will they love you less if they knew? Will they love you more if you stay in your M? Less if you get divorced?
Springchicken - why do you say you don't have that strong of character? Why do you demean yourself and your feelings? Becuase you weren't able to leave your M flat? Because you weren't sure that was what you wanted. You just said you knew your M was in a bad state. So - the choice was to have the A or get divorced or maybe the A showed you that you could find love somewhere else and allow you to value yourself. Not everyone that has an A is a bad person of low moral character willing to disregard the feelings of everyone else for their 10 minutes of the high.
Kids are resilient - they copy their role models? So it is better for them to see their parents in an unhappy M, than try and find some way to be happy and move on. And why is the A their business? Do you have a wonderful romantic night with your H and get up and tell your kids? Is it their business what goes on in your bedroom? Ever? Will they love you less if they knew? Will they love you more if you stay in your M? Less if you get divorced?
Lost in space... you are truely LOST
PLEASE READ THE BASIC CONCEPTS BEFORE POSTING ON THIS FORUM!
On the outside, I am probably one of the most responsible, well-respected professionals you would ever meet. It's only on the inside that I'm a mess.
Ohmigosh, I cannot believe you even said that. Do you really believe that anyone at work respects you after shagging a male coworker? Maybe so if you work at a strip club and are a "professional" stripper, but I have been in the corporate world for 21 years and people who have affairs are PARIAHS. PARIAHS. Having an affair is an open announcement that you can't be trusted, that you have no ethics. The very foundation of teamwork. This is why hiring managers don't touch cheaters with a 10' pole: they are untrustworthy. That have no ethics.
I work in an male dominated Fortune 500 company and I KNOW what men say about women who have affairs at work. It is not pretty! I say to myself "I don't ever want my coworkers to talk about me like that...."
People who have affairs are not respected in the workplace, SC. You have ruined your reputation and by ruining your reputation you have ruined your career at this company. Like tst said, the only person you are fooling yourself.
I think I want to go take a shower and clean those things off, I'm feeling like I'm gonna be sick! You would think as a FWH it wouldn't bother me......but it does!
I suspect that you have now discovered that around here, you can run, but you can't hide. See, it isn't the outside lies that really, really mess with our character, it is the internal ones. And Mel has done her job of pointing out some of your internal lies. There are more. And they are obvious.
See, we have this popular culture thing going on. This is where the media sells all sorts of juicy stories of licentious activities by the rich and famous to an audience thirsty for diversion. And the audience eats it up. A President says that oral isn't sex. More than a few are influenced to lie to themselves and use that as justification.
Just because we have a dopamine reward response in our brain, doesn't mean that the act that caused that reward is of benefit, long term or short term. Of benefit to either ourselves or, to make a point, to the little people we have conceived and for whom we responsible. At what price mommy's affair to the ones who look up to her as the ultimate role model?
Yet just last night, I see this female who is in the middle of an affair, say, "The kids are resilient." If that means the kids won't die, sure. If that means the kids will grow up with a warped sense of right and wrong, that woman has just uttered the biggest lie she could ever tell HERSELF. She has betrayed her children. Period.
I don't have much patience with the well documented mid life crisis thing. I don't have much patience with women who say my marriage has gone stale. You know how that one goes, "My husband is a great guy, but. . ." But be damned. If husband is a such great guy, why betray him? What does that make a female who does it? You can switch genders and the same holds true.
It is all fine and good to examine how dopamine influences what we do in life. But not to the extent of a cop out. Not to the extent of allowing ourselves to lie. In my opinion, the discovery of an internal lie is easy.
If what I did in private is something that I would not have done in front of my 10 year old in public, it was wrong. And anything I tell myself about what I did to justify, is an internal lie.
I've read the basic concepts. I understand Plan A, B, NC. I get the idea of addiction, bad moral character. I've read them. The hardest part is the intolerance shown to the WS. We are all human and make mistakes. I don't believe you have to be "cruel to be kind." I think there is a lot of fear mongering. I don't think that springchicken is a bad person, of bad moral character. I think that she, like so many others made a mistake. She's not evil. She's not unprofessional. She's not a bad mother, bad co-worker. I think she's human. If she wants to repair her marriage, I agree, that NC is the only way to do. I agree that she can't get past her addiction without it. But making her feel she's bad, is simply cruel.
is when they KNOW their actions will be judged because they KNOW they have acted badly!
A person never says:
"I educate my child .... please don't judge me." "I've been faithful to my vows ... please don't judge me." "I got an A on my book report ... please don't judge me." "I exercised and watched my diet and lost 35 pounds ... please don't judge me."
They might say:
"I don't make my child attend school ... please don't judge me." "I've cheated on my spouse ... please don't judge me." "I failed my book report ... please don't judge me." "I ate 12 donuts and sat around on my butt all day and now I am fat ... please don't judge me."
It is a that your conscience bothers you when you say:
"Please don't judge me"
You know your actions deserve scrutiny - but you reject that very same scrutiny.
No one here can "make" her feel bad without her permission. A good person feels bad when they do bad things. A person who does not feel bad when they do bad things is not a good person.
What is cruel is ... deception, betrayal, lies, and adultery. What is also cruel ... is giving another person license to be deceptive, a liar, and excuse their adultery.
THAT is cruel. Why? Because when a person feels bad about their bad deeds, they are less likely to continue doing the bad deeds.
I agree that she can't get past her addiction without it. But making her feel she's bad, is simply cruel.
lost, if a person does not feel "bad" about being bad, they are probably a sociopath without a conscience. A person should feel bad about being bad. It is cruel to lie and cheat; it is not "cruel" to feel bad about cruelty. If a person doesn't feel bad about that, she is probably messed up.
Your posts here are not helpful and reflect the shallow foggy thinking of an adulterer. If you believe that lying and cheating are signs of a good character, then that reflects your own foggy thinking and not reality.
The blind cannot lead the blind. You are just disrupting this thread and I would ask that you stop.
I've read the basic concepts. I understand Plan A, B, NC. I get the idea of addiction, bad moral character. I've read them. The hardest part is the intolerance shown to the WS. We are all human and make mistakes. I don't believe you have to be "cruel to be kind." I think there is a lot of fear mongering. I don't think that springchicken is a bad person, of bad moral character. I think that she, like so many others made a mistake. She's not evil. She's not unprofessional. She's not a bad mother, bad co-worker. I think she's human. If she wants to repair her marriage, I agree, that NC is the only way to do. I agree that she can't get past her addiction without it. But making her feel she's bad, is simply cruel.
Start your own dang thread. You may have read Einstein's theory of whatever, but it doesn't mean you understand. Right now you are running from your own thread and using SC to hide.
Won't work, not around here. See Pep and Mel posts. You are hijacking SC's thread to project on her your own internal lies.
I was a WW, and you know....I WAS A BAD PERSON. A good person does not flirt with, share with, or sleep with a man other than her husband. A good person does not continually lie and deceive. A good person does not expose her spouse to possible disease. A good person does not show by her actions that she doesn't care enough about her children to stay faithful to their father. Period.
Also...a good person takes responsibility without shifting blame. A good person comes clean. A good person puts protecting the marriage above everything - even temporary teenage heartache. A good person will crawl across broken glass to make amends for the ultimate marital betrayal.
And as far as a WW feeling bad...I NEEDED to feel bad. I needed to see what was REALLY looking back at me in the mirror. Because if I hadn't, it never ever would have truly changed.
I have a soft heart for any truly repentant WW. But someone who comes here with all the touchy feely morally skewed mumbo jumbo....nope. None. Nada.
...And then you will notice that the ache is less, the tears haven't come in awhile, and your H is waaaay more worth thinking about than OM ever was.
Don't trust your feelings. Fix your gaze squarely on what is right. And do it. Every day. I PROMISE that you will never ever regret doing what is right.
For Spring:
Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continue living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate�someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own�is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better....
...Howard's failure to understand the complex emotional consequences of his affair is typically male, just as Bette's insistence that her affair partner live up to her romantic fantasies is typically female. Any gender-based generalization is both irritating and inaccurate, but some behaviors are typical. Men tend to attach too little significance to affairs, ignoring their horrifying power to disorient and disrupt lives, while women tend to attach too much significance, assuming that the emotions are so powerful they must be "real" and therefore concrete, permanent, and stable enough to risk a life for.
--Dr. Frank Pittman, Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy
Thank you SDCW and thank you Lost in Space. I really don't need anyone else to tell me what a bad person I am or what a horrible person I am. Believe me, there isn't anything anyone could say about me that I haven't thought about myself. And for those of you who claim that I have ruined my career or am a laughing stock at my job--check this out: I QUIT my job when my H first discovered the A, but the company REFUSED to let me go and actually GAVE ME A PROMOTION! I appreciate the advice that the waywards have given. And I appreciate the harsh words from the betrayeds, but here's the thing, betrayeds, you have only experienced the A from your standpoint. Before I made this mistake, I would have reacted the same way to anyone who told me that they were having an A with a much younger person. The one thing I've learned from all this, and the one thing that has drawn me closer to God, is that WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES. Moral, professional, whatever. No one is a bad person, but we all make bad choices. I am fully aware that I made a bad choice, and believe me, I am suffering the consequences. The emotional HE77 that I am going through is far worse than anything else that could possibly happen to me. And I'm okay with that because I did the crime and should do the time. But I came on this board to talk to wayward survivors. Ones who could give me actual advice on how to move forward. How to put this in my past. How to focus on my M and my H and how to stop thinking about the OM. I came here looking for hope that I can do that. The rest of you who seem to only want to continue to shame me, please don't bother. I will live with this scarlet letter for the rest of my life. Before you rip into me again, please keep in mind that I'm looking for advice and I'm open to criticism, but I didn't come here for a public stoning.
Well, see you are correct in what you seek, not necessarily correct with an analysis of the help. As you completely defog, you will find your mind working in new ways. And to help that along, some are going to suggest that you run in a certain way instead of doing stuff in one spot.
Please trust me. You are not completely defogged. Given your motivation and otherwise common sense, you will be. It will take time and introspection. No magic wand (You know that), but time and the acquisition of the emotional tools you need to get yourself straight and that will, eventually, allow you to forgive yourself. Just please, don't buy a word lost says. She is as fogged as it is possible to be. Sorry she even choose to get in your thread, for her own purposes.
SugarCane, I hope that helps you feel better to call me a bad person. I'm sure it helped you when you were being betrayed to think of your H as a bad person. But I'm assuming you are still married, and if so, I'm hoping you don't think of your H in that light. Forgive me, but I thought this was a Marriage BUILDERS board. I'm looking for advice on how to build my M, not name calling.
Larry, thank you for your help. I have finished reading Surviving, but I may re-read it. I've also read a couple other books as well, including Private Lies. What I'm particularly interested in learning is how to replace my thoughts of the OM with more productive thoughts about my M. I would love for someone to tell me, "I have been there. I had times when I thought about the OM constantly. I never thought I would get through it. But I did, and i'm a better person for it. I am so thankful that I stayed in my M even when I didn't think there was any hope." I am still in my fog, and I want to get out. I need some ideas on how to get better in touch with reality. I appreciate the input.
Spring & LostinSpace (I agree your screen name is telling cuz you are very fogged-up and "lost" right now),
Here is a universal truth that both of you need to grasp and accept:
No matter...
how "wonderful & perfect" your OM seems... how "he says and does all the right things"... how "unique and meant to be" it feels... how much "better" your OM seems compared to your BH... how much "in love" you two feel... how much more "exciting" your affair seems than your marriage... how "disconnected" you feel from your BH... how desperate you are to rationalize/justify it all...
Remember this:
Any man who is willing to cheat with a married-woman... Any man who is willing to betray his own wife and kids (if applicable)... Any man you have to conceal, deny, and lie about 'being with'...
IS NOT A DECENT AND HONORABLE MAN EVER WORTH HAVING IN YOUR LIFE!
You are falling for the siren song of a smooth-talking, opportunistic player who has no values or loyalty. No matter how "good" he seems at first, remember that cheaters lie and liars cheat & that if he is willing to lie & cheat WITH you, then he will later be more than willing to lie & cheat ON you...
Even those rare affairs that go on to "affair-marriage", end in divorce 95+% of the time. All that glitters is not gold...
SCDW, I agree with you 100%. I need to constantly remind myself of that when I am thinking of all the "good" qualities of the OM. You are absolutely right. Thanks for the reminder. It helps.
Spring, I was there. I believed with all of my heart that I loved the OM. During our A I wrote an account of all of our times together because I "knew" if it ended I would never experience real passion again. I would hear a song and sob, remembering jogging down the street and getting texts from him. I would have the urge NOT to change the channel when a certain movie came on, remembering watching it together. I don't want to go on because it's quite frankly a waste of memory now. But I remember those days.
After my D-Day I broke NC twice because I couldn't stand not to know how he was or if he hated me. My heart sank when I saw a certain car. But it got better. The more I rid myself of those wrong thoughts, the closer I moved toward my H, the more time passed, the better it got. I replaced my thoughts by spending time with family, praying a lot, reading the Bible - I can't tell you how many pages I filled copying verses from Psalms, listening to uplifting music. And it got better. But I had to consciously NOT listen to my feelings. I had to make the right choices and not let myself look back.
One thing that is key is the choice of who to surround yourself with. Only listen to those who speak the truth. Do not listen to anyone who encourages excuses. Don't listen to anyone who sings kum-ba-ya. Go with the tough love.
You are not a bad person, but...let's be clear here...you have done some very bad things (as you know) to your husband, family, and children.
Yes, all of us make mistakes and all of us "have sinned and fallen short". What separates a "good" person from a "bad" person is how they respond and how they learn/grow from it.
A "good person" who is recovering his/her character: Owns up to it and takes personal responsibility ENDS ALL HINT OF IMPROPRIETY--PERMANENTLY Is open, honest, and fully truthful to those they have wronged Does not make excuses and does not blame-shift or scapegoat Asks for forgiveness and expects nothing in return Does what IS right, even if it doesn't FEEL good at the time Is sensitive and empathetic to those he/she has hurt Displays sincere remorse, humility, and repentance
(see the 'Parable of the Prodigal Son' from the Bible for an exact display of what this means in practice)
A "bad person" doesn't do the above. He/she: Makes excuses and continues to rationalize Blames, fingerpoints, scapegoats, and demonizes others Remains dishonest, self-entitled, stubborn, self-indulgent, & sanctimonious Will not admit or 'look in the mirror' Avoids reponsibility and making of amends Doesn't care who he/she hurts Is unremorseful and unrepentant
THANK YOU Lurioosi and SCDW!!! That is EXACTLY what I was looking for when I posted on this site. Since I began the A, I have become estranged from God because I was so ashamed. With your encouragement, I will go back to the Psalms and read them. And I will actively try to stop my thoughts when they start to wander toward the OM. All of this advice will help me to maintain NC, which I desperately want to do. It helps so much to know that it will get better. It's been a long time since I've had heartache over lost "love," and, frankly, I really needed some advice on how to deal with it. I didn't think it appropriate to look to my H for that advice, especially since I know that he has been dealing with his own heartbreak.
You are doing great things now...I wish more WSs showed your level of courage, introspection, and determination to "turn around" in the face of temptation.
You will need to come fully clean to your husband. You will need to go to complete and perpetual NC with your OM. You will need to send him a NC-letter that YOUR HUSBAND READS AND PRE-APPROVES OF. You will need to go through withdrawal, resist the urge to "backslide", and fully meet your BHs ENs. You will "fall out of love" with the OM and fall "back in love" with your BH. You will recover something even better than before...something you came dangerously close to throwing down the drain. Read SAA, understand Dr. Harley's system and why it ALWAYS works when followed dilligently, and do it! You can do it.
Remember, Jesus dismissed the would-be executioners, walked up to the adulteress at the stone wall, offered her forgiveness and non-condemnation, but then also said:
"Now go...and sin no more"
Keep posting here---a lot of good people want to help you and your H recover.
sc, it may sound silly, but sometimes for some a rubber band around the wrist is helpful. whenever a thought comes to mind that you don't want to be there. pull the rubber band out and let it snap your wrist. the sting might refocus your mind. some people have used this to help with cigarette addiction
And for those of you who claim that I have ruined my career or am a laughing stock at my job--check this out: I QUIT my job when my H first discovered the A, but the company REFUSED to let me go and actually GAVE ME A PROMOTION! I appreciate the advice that the waywards have given. And I appreciate the harsh words from the betrayeds, but here's the thing, betrayeds, you have only experienced the A from your standpoint.
Spring, I *AM* a former wayward, but that doesn't mean that the advice of betrayed spouses is not relevant. I would remind you that you only have experience from *YOUR* standpoint, which is that of a person who is fogged out and high on the addiction of an affair.
You just don't like what I say because you know it is true. I am sorry, but a woman who shags her coworkers is a laughing stock in the workplace. I doubt the one who asked you to stay KNEW about your unprofessional conduct in the workplace, did he? That is about as unprofessional as it gets. Did he know you were putting the company at legal risk by putting out with a co-worker? I bet not. How about some honesty there? But I betcha many of your coworkers know, though..........and laugh about it. It always gets out.
The bottom line, SC, is that shagging your peers in the workplace is NOT professional conduct and no one with any sense will pretend like it is. I realize you are hearing things you don't want to hear, but they are EXACTLY what you need to hear. We are objective, YOU ARE NOT. Keep that in mind. Anyone who tells you, a fogged out wayward, what you want to hear is not doing you any good. Just think about that. Your buddy, "lostinspace" is just as "LOST" as you are. And the blind can't lead the blind. If you want to be led out of the darkness, pay attention to those of us who are in RECOVERED MARRIAGES.
You are living a lie. You pretend like you are a "professional" at work and then come home and "pretend" like you are a good, faithful wife. It is all a lie, SC. Honesty is the solution to adultery, not more lies. The reason you don't want to be judged is because you know the truth. And want to run from it by telling yourself you are a "good person" while lying to those around you. Lies, lies, lies...
Lurioosi, I agree with you. It's so much easier to blame the M than to blame myself. And I do believe that women don't leave without an escape plan. But, at the end of the day, I chose to have the A rather than focus on my M and try to fix it. I realize that if my M fails, I am going to have to face life on my own and not rely on the cushion of the OM. I would NEVER have the strength to leave my M if it weren't for the presence of the OM in my life. I had never even considered it. I knew our M was in a bad state, but it wasn't until the OM appeared that I considered bailing on it. That was my fault. It was a cowardly way of dealing with my marital woes. If my marriage was that bad to begin with, I should have faced the truth and left on my own, rather than putting my H and my kids through he77. Obviously, I do not have that strong of character.
[An aside] This is the classic mindset and motivations of virtually ALL WWs out there right from the source�take note, gentlemen (esp. those of you who are �drinking your wife�s Kool-Aid� in denial right now): 1. A woman very rarely leaves her marriage/home UNLESS & UNTIL she has another man on the side to run to. If she leaves or is threatening it, she is having an affair until DEFINITIVELY proven otherwise. 2. If she is scapegoating the crap out of you and/or badmouthing the heck out of your marriage (accentuating everything negative and de-accentuating everything positive), she is having an affair until DEFINITIVELY proven otherwise. 3. If she refuses to focus on and work together to improve your marriage, she is having an affair until DEFINITIVELY proven otherwise. 4. If she talks about how newly �strong� or �independent� she has magically become, she is having an affair until DEFINITIVELY proven otherwise.
Back to you, Spring: The �treatment� for a marriage that has become disconnected or unfulfilling is to RENEW THE MARRIAGE through consistently meeting each other�s key EN, avoiding LBs, & implementing Dr. Harley�s policies (PORH, POJA, Care & Protection, etc). It is NOT to throw the baby-out-with-the-bath-water by having an affair. You know this. I give you Pittman again:
Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape�
�Marriage can survive either a husband's infidelity or a wife's, if it is stopped, brought into the open, and dealt with. I have cleaned up more affairs than a squad of motel chambermaids. Infidelity is a very messy hobby. It is not an effective way to find a new mate or a new life. It is not a safe treatment for depression, boredom, imperfect marriage, or inadequate gender splendor. And it certainly does not impress the rest of us. It does not work for women any better than it does for men. It does excite the senses and the imaginations of those who merely hear the tales of lives and deaths for love, who melt at the sound of liebestods or country songs of love gone wrong. I think I've gotten more from infidelity as an observer than all the participants I've seen. Infidelity is a spectator sport like shark feeding or bull fighting�that is, great for those innocent bystanders who are careful not to get their feet, or whatever, wet. For the greatest enjoyment of infidelity, I recommend you observe from a safe physical and emotional distance and avoid any suicidal impulse to become a participant.
We all know that your marriage was not what it could/should have been before your affair started. We all know that your BH undoubtedly bears substantial responsibility for that fact as well. We all know that most affairs start under a certain set of preconditions (the about-to-be-WS feels, often legitimately, neglected, unappreciated, taken-for-granted, and/or otherwise disconnected). BUT�as Dr. Harley clearly states: �There are reasons and explanations for why affairs happen, but there are NEVER justifications.�
Please don�t take the �easy path� of bailing on your marriage/family for the siren song of a new & exciting �romance�. It is a selfish and self-destructive mirage 99+% of the time. Many fWW's here will tell you how hard it was for them to re-commit to their marriage/BH and how GLAD they are that they stuck it out. Great and valuable things are never easy�don�t forget that.
This is one of my favorite poets� lines: � Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference.� --Robert Frost
SugarCane, I hope that helps you feel better to call me a bad person. I'm sure it helped you when you were being betrayed to think of your H as a bad person. But I'm assuming you are still married, and if so, I'm hoping you don't think of your H in that light. Forgive me, but I thought this was a Marriage BUILDERS board. I'm looking for advice on how to build my M, not name calling.
sc, I am still married and I most certainly DO NOT think of my husband TODAY in that light. My H changed his job to one that involved no travel abroad (we live in the UK and OW lives in Belgium) so that he could not meet OW for sex any more. He took a pay cut and lost a promotion when he refused to travel any more. He took on a job that is much less interesting and varied than the one he had and he works hard at it, without complaint, and he shows HUGE gratitude to me for giving him the chance to rebuild the marriage. He does all he can to make me happy and he seems very happy to be here himself. I wouldn't say that my marriage is "recovered" because his was a long affair with many deliberate false recoveries and much cruelty to me, and so there is a lot to recover from.
sc, I am not name calling, and in that post I wasn't directly addressing you. I was addressing lostinspace2, who made the comment.
Originally Posted by lostinspace2
Not everyone that has an A is a bad person of low moral character willing to disregard the feelings of everyone else for their 10 minutes of the high.
A person HAVING an affair is a bad person of low moral character. They are willing to disregard the feelings of their spouse and children, and the other person's spouse and children, precisely "for their 10 minutes of the high".
Okay, it might not be just 10 minutes. It might be a couple of hours' shagging, as my H had with his OW in the hotel room he was renting, and sometimes it was overnight, but a WS risks hurting and losing their innocent spouse and children, and breaking up the other person's family, for the high of illicit sex. The sex is made particularly intoxicating because there is a loving spouse at home, waiting for the WS's return from work or a night out, who is looking after the kids and keeping the home warm for his or her return. How wonderful to have someone doing that for you at home and to also have someone else neglect her own children whilst she spreads her legs for two hours for you (reverse genders for you). Two people to love you that much!
A WS has a low moral character when she or he is doing those things, and whilst being a WS. When they STOP being a WS and work on their moral character they begin to improve it.
One way to recognise a reformed, repentant FWS is when they do not try to deny the ugliness of what they did and of WHO THEY WERE when they were doing it. A reformed FWS would never justify adultery on any grounds, as lostinspace2 did.
I am not saying that YOU did this. I addressed my post to lostinspace2.
"I QUIT my job when my H first discovered the A, but the company REFUSED to let me go and actually GAVE ME A PROMOTION!"
Find the person that forced you to "do" the OM to help force you to resign.
Oh wait you chose to "do" the OM and you simply will have to chose to tell the company about you the OM the affair, NC, and how there can't be NC with the both off you still working at the company. Then tell them you need to resign.
Tell them it�s not that you do not like working there. You are happy with the promotion. Thouh you must have NC with the OM.
Thank you for that Breezemb. I appreciate all the advice from everyone, and I appreciate that some of the harsh words were meant for Lost, but I see no need to attack either Lost or me. Both of us are on this board to seek help. Believe me, I KNOW there are plenty of waywards who could care less about saving their marriages, and would not even come near a message board in attempt to save their marriages. I am certainly not a saint, but I am seeking help, as I'm sure Lost is doing as well. if this board is truly going to help marriages, then you have to appreciate the perspective of BOTH the wayward AND the betrayed. Then you will have real insight into how to save the marriage. Personal attacks do nothing more than encourage the wayward to ditch the board and continue in the fog. Shame encourages dishonesty, not disclosure, even though full disclosure is what is needed to save the M.
On a separate note, I do want to thank those of you who have shared your experiences with me and given me some very good, practical advice. Especially SCDW, Lurioosi and Larry. And I liked the advice from the person who suggested the rubber band trick. I need that kind of advice to pull me through the fog. And I also appreciate the perspective of Lost. She is clearly experiencing a lot of the feelings that I am experiencing, and it helps to know that I am not alone. I think the biggest struggle the wayward experiences is the feeling that they are all alone in their struggle. The betrayed goes through he77, I understand that, but at least they can share their pain with their family, their friends, their pastor, and even their spouse. The wayward has no where to go--except to the OM which DOES NOT HELP the M, only perpetuates the ugly cycle. That is why I reached out to this site. I had no one to talk to or share my experience with except the OM which I did not want to do. And I truly appreciate the help that many of you have given me. Please keep the practical advice coming. I don't mind constructive criticism, but I have already called myself every name in the book already, as I'm sure Lost has as well. Don't encourage us to leave the board and the only support system that we have right now. Your advice, your help and your war stories are the only thing helping me to stay focused on my M right now. Without it, I would be too tempted to return to the fog.
You have said several times that my comments have been useful:
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Larry, thank you for your help. I have finished reading Surviving, but I may re-read it. I've also read a couple other books as well, including Private Lies. What I'm particularly interested in learning is how to replace my thoughts of the OM with more productive thoughts about my M. I would love for someone to tell me, "I have been there. I had times when I thought about the OM constantly. I never thought I would get through it. But I did, and i'm a better person for it. I am so thankful that I stayed in my M even when I didn't think there was any hope." I am still in my fog, and I want to get out. I need some ideas on how to get better in touch with reality. I appreciate the input.
I am going to focus on the points above as underlined.
The only difference between a "Good" infatuation and a "Bad" one is the level of collateral damage to others that comes from a bad one, AND, some of the foundation for the infatuation itself.
Given your level of education, I am going to use technical terms: an infatuation rewards us with dopamine highs in the brain. A crush is similar, remember those? We get something out of it, so we continue to act in ways to generate the dopamine high.
In an infatuation, we are our own worst enemy because we project on our target who we believe them to be instead of who they really are. This is nature's silly joke on us that is intended to make babies; continuation of the race. If you are religious, this is one of God's designs that has consequences if you are not on God's path for living and obeying the 10 commandments. If you are not religious, I have another explanation, just ask.
The dopamine high is fueled by contact. Because our dreams are inside, the other person doesn't have to say a word. Contact is enough to reward us with a projection and an emotion. The quickest way to kill a dopamine high based infatuation is to have no contact. Without contact, the brain eventually "Dries up" the receptors that gave us the high and the receptors find other things to do. You can give those receptors a nudge in ways I can explain if you ask.
See, the dopamine high eventually kills itself anyway. Because the high is based on a reality that doesn't exist, after some months or years (up to three/five), it is going to go away on its own. I might mention here that Dr. Harley's concepts and techniques are designed to continue past the time for expiration of a normal infatuation into a lifetime. And they work for a number of reasons.
In other words, you can get the same high from your husband.
In a typical affair infatuation, there is a lot of lying going on. One or both lie to themselves and to the other party to maintain the dopamine high. It just is what it is. So normally, the infatuation doesn't last as long as a more normal "Good" infatuation between those who are not in committed relationships. Reality and time kills the infatuation.
You infatuation for OM is going to go away sooner or later. You can hasten this process by eliminating contact, all contact, period, by whatever means it takes to stop it. No reinforcement, the need for the high dies. Another technique is to come clean. Delete the guilt that can also prolong the longing for the high. Catholic confession is partially based on this concept.
In other words, you don't hang on to even a shred of your prior self respect, because that also allows you to hang on to your feelings of infatuation, the dopamine high that is so self destructive. Then, you rebuild your self respect based on your change into a new person, one who is very unlikely to repeat the mistakes that led you down the primrose path into self destructive mode.
Does that make sense to you?
No contact, full confession, rebuild your life on the foundation of honesty. Then look back and go "Wow!"
If you buy what I have said, I can go on to how to rebuild with your husband if he wants that.
Personal attacks do nothing more than encourage the wayward to ditch the board and continue in the fog. Shame encourages dishonesty, not disclosure, even though full disclosure is what is needed to save the M.
SpringChicken, I have re-read this thread and honestly see no "personal attacks." Rather, I see many posts that accurately define your behavior. That is not a "personal attack," it is much needed honesty, something that has been sorely missing from your life for a very long time. So please lose the very inappropriate victim act. You are not a victim, Madam; you are the perpetrator of a horrendous crime. You have not faced the truth about who you really are, and instead have told yourself lies in order to continue your life of lies. This is why truthful statements are so scary to you.
If someone does attack you, I would suggest you notify the mods and let them handle it, rather than lecturing other posters on what constitutes appropriate behavior. Something you are ill equipped for.
This forum is not going to gloss over sleazy behavior with foggy weasel words, I assure you. I PROMISE you. That is a sick, dysfunctional practice that differentiates this forum from others. Folks here are not going to help you pretend that you are something you are not. While you might "think" that is not helpful, you are the least qualified to make such a judgment. The least. Your best thinking got you in this sad fix. You are the least qualified to decide what will help you recover and what won't. Keep in mind that WE are recovered............and you are NOT. The blind cannot lead the seeing. You are the least objective person on this thread [after lostinspace, that is] If truthful language causes you to leave, then you weren't sincere in the first place. Wild horses could not run off someone who really wants to change. But folks here won't enable you to run from the truth.
Secondly, guilt and shame are your conscience's warning system that something is very wrong. People feel shame when they have done things they should feel ashamed about, as you have here. You should feel ashamed. If you do not feel shame and guilt for what you have done, then there is probably something very wrong with you. [sociopaths don't feel guilt or shame] You have probably been running from your very appropriate GUILT for a very long time using mental masturbation tactics like compartmentalization and bizarre rationalizations, right? We have all been there.
I would assert this has not helped you one bit. A better solution is to stop running from it, and EMBRACE IT. EMBRACE your guilt. Feel it and let it wash over you. It is your FRIEND. It is your conscience screaming that you are in violation. It is calling for some relief.
So rather than trying to run from your screaming conscience, a better solution is to stop the violating behavior. Stop the adultery. Stop the lying. The solution is to change the behavior, rather than attempting to change the screaming conscience. It won't be silenced, SC.
Just so you know, I find nothing in Mel's post that is inconsistent with what I have said to you. You have to clear the boulders out of the way to find bedrock upon which to rebuild. No excuses.
I've yet to post to you, so "Hello" & "Welcome"! I have read your thread, so I have been "listening"...I am a FWW in an awesome recovered marriage - my husband and I read all the books and went to the MB Weekend - All Excellent, I can't recommend them enough - DDay was 5 years ago - I have never once regretted staying in our marriage - No question it was THE RIGHT THING to do - No one ever regrets doing the right thing, btw...All that said, let me talk to you about this post of yours a bit...
Originally Posted by springchicken
Thank you for that Breezemb. I appreciate all the advice from everyone, and I appreciate that some of the harsh words were meant for Lost, but I see no need to attack either Lost or me. Both of us are on this board to seek help. Believe me, I KNOW there are plenty of waywards who could care less about saving their marriages, and would not even come near a message board in attempt to save their marriages. I am certainly not a saint, but I am seeking help, as I'm sure Lost is doing as well. if this board is truly going to help marriages, then you have to appreciate the perspective of BOTH the wayward AND the betrayed. Then you will have real insight into how to save the marriage. Personal attacks do nothing more than encourage the wayward to ditch the board and continue in the fog. Shame encourages dishonesty, not disclosure, even though full disclosure is what is needed to save the M.
Whoa - that was quite a lecture! Slow down - realize that many of the folks posting to you have been here a LONG time & have acquired a vast amount of knowledge about adultery in that time - They are either BSs or FWSs - Each of those kind of people understand perfectly where you are right now - I hate to tell you this, but "the wayward perspective" is not one bit unique and it sure isn't helpful for anyone with a wayward perspective to post to you...A FWS is a whole different person - Many of them, myself included at times, will hit you HARDER with 2x4s than any BS here - WHY? Because we KNOW how bad you are screwing up, and it sickens us, and yes angers us at times as well...
Anyway, something you need to hear, imo - GET HUMBLE - Realize that NO ONE here "owes" you their time, but many are choosing to give it to you - FREE - Instead of "lecturing" them, why not thank them - realize you aren't entitled to their help AND that right now, you are in no position to decide who knows what here - YOU are the one in crisis - YOU are the one trying to keep your head above water - Most of the people that are posting to you have already overcome their crises - they hold the life preserver that you need - Your choices are yours, I can't make you do any of that obviously, but I can tell you that if I were you, I'd not shoot at the rescue 'copters...I found that the posts that angered me the most when I first came here, ended up being the most helpful ones - I couldn't see that at the time because I was foggy - but those posts - the hard hitting ones - the ones filled with unpleasant truths? Those are the ones that helped clear my fog...
I'd be careful of lecturing some and then handing out "selective thank yous" to others if I were you - You could miss out on some very valuable stuff by doing that...
Next, stop trying to lay YOUR CHOICES at the feet of others - No other regular member has the ability to MAKE you leave this board - If you want help, you will stay and accept it, and you will do the hard work necessary to help yourself...But make no mistake about it, either way will be YOUR CHOICE...
Originally Posted by springchicken
On a separate note, I do want to thank those of you who have shared your experiences with me and given me some very good, practical advice. Especially SCDW, Lurioosi and Larry. And I liked the advice from the person who suggested the rubber band trick. I need that kind of advice to pull me through the fog. And I also appreciate the perspective of Lost. She is clearly experiencing a lot of the feelings that I am experiencing, and it helps to know that I am not alone. I think the biggest struggle the wayward experiences is the feeling that they are all alone in their struggle. The betrayed goes through he77, I understand that, but at least they can share their pain with their family, their friends, their pastor, and even their spouse. The wayward has no where to go--except to the OM which DOES NOT HELP the M, only perpetuates the ugly cycle. That is why I reached out to this site. I had no one to talk to or share my experience with except the OM which I did not want to do. And I truly appreciate the help that many of you have given me. Please keep the practical advice coming. I don't mind constructive criticism, but I have already called myself every name in the book already, as I'm sure Lost has as well. Don't encourage us to leave the board and the only support system that we have right now. Your advice, your help and your war stories are the only thing helping me to stay focused on my M right now. Without it, I would be too tempted to return to the fog.
Again in this paragraph, I am going to remind you that YOUR CHOICES ARE YOURS...Every single choice you have made is the reason your life is what it is today - YOUR CHOICES PUT YOU HERE - I keep emphasizing that because I hear you wanting to make others responsible for your choices - I get that - I thought that way too - Know what helped? Realizing I was wrong and owning all of my choices - Very empowering, that...
You aren't gonna get much sympathy here for "wayward struggles", "wayward pain", your "shame", or names that you've called yourself...Btw, it is HEALTHY for you to feel shame about shameful things, if you did not you'd be a sociopath! Should you end up in a place that is passing out sympathy to waywards and patting you on the back for pity parties - RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!!!! That means you are in a BAD and ENABLING place...You get no sympathy for that in healthy, good places because (1) You brought this on yourself by YOUR CHOICES...and (2) Sympathy won't help you - commiseration does nothing but keep you miserable - Who wants that?
Personally, I'd much prefer steering you towards redeeming and esteeming yourself...I hope that is the path that you will choose...
Because you singled me out for posting something you felt was helpful, I am also going to comment when someone else offers you advice you might not like.
I agree with Mrs.W's take.
Once again, you gotta get the boulders out of the way to find bedrock and build on that foundation, and you have to give up the internal justifications to reach that point.
This is a collaborative forum. Each offers their take. I didn't like lost's comments to you because they were not made from the perspective of someone who has recovered their balance.
Listen to the ones who have walked in your shoes and found a path to personal sanity, not the ones who are still in the fog.
One of the most important requirements for becoming a member is that you read all of Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. Click the tab "Basic Concepts" above on the header to find them. The purpose of this Forum is to help couples use those Basic Concepts to overcome marital conflicts and restore romantic love.
I think the biggest struggle the wayward experiences is the feeling that they are all alone in their struggle.
I disagree. I think it's easy for the WS to focus on 'I'm so alone in my struggle' as a way to avoid coming to terms with what they have done. Your focus is misdirected.
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The betrayed goes through he77, I understand that, but at least they can share their pain with their family, their friends, their pastor, and even their spouse.
This sounds like we BS's should feel fortunate for ourselves, that we have someone to share with. BS's don't choose to be assaulted. There is nothing fortunate, (you use the term 'at least') about a devastating situation that is forced upon you.
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The wayward has no where to go--except to the OM which DOES NOT HELP the M, only perpetuates the ugly cycle.
Go to the park ..... and scream. If you want to stop thinking of OM, then stop talking about him. YOU are allowing him space in your head. Space that should be occupied with how your poor BH feels.
You need to read some threads of BS's and get a real feel for what you have done.
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That is why I reached out to this site. I had no one to talk to or share my experience with except the OM which I did not want to do.
Again, your focus is on POSOM.
POSOM, like yourself, are not the victims here. Concentrate on the victims.
THANK YOU Lurioosi and SCDW!!! That is EXACTLY what I was looking for when I posted on this site. Since I began the A, I have become estranged from God because I was so ashamed. With your encouragement, I will go back to the Psalms and read them. And I will actively try to stop my thoughts when they start to wander toward the OM. All of this advice will help me to maintain NC, which I desperately want to do. It helps so much to know that it will get better.
You have not established NC. Can you acknowledge that or not?
As I read through your comments, I feel like what you are trying to get from this board is ways that you can R your M while you continue working with OM...
It's not going to work, period...
You are not going to get over your infatuation with OM even if you are able to find a way to avoid talking to him at work.
It's nice that you are on this board and trying to get help. But as long as you continue to work with OM, you are doing the cruelest, most hurtful thing that has probably ever been done to your H (watch Dr. H's infidelity video on the home page).
I am sorry if you feel people are being harsh to you, but you are foggy..and I don't think you realize how close you are to losing your M. The posts that made you the most angry are the ones you probably need to go back and read.
First off, the POSOM is not married. Second, I apologize if my post sounded like a lecture. I appreciate the advice everyone has given me. That being said, many of you have been long on judgment and short on help. ML, I understand that you think I'm a POS. So do I. So we have something in common. But you have yet to give me one single practical tip to help me recover. I agree with everything you've said to me. I think it's consistent with the advice everyone else has given me. I'm just telling you that it has not been helpful for me. If I want someone to tell me I'm a POS, I can just look in the mirror. I don't need to come on this board for that. Mrs. W, you are a FWW. Then you should have some ACTUAL TIPS to help me get past this and focus on my M. You said you re-built your marriage and that it's better than before. But you didn't tell me how you put the OM behind you. That's what I want to know. I have read SAA and have read Dr. Harley's advice. I am looking for real life examples of that advice in practice. Please tell me how you used his advice in your own marriage.
If you're not interested in helping me, then please don't post on my thread. i'm not trying to play the "victim" here. I can handle your judgment. It's just that I'm looking for something more concrete and practical. I'm looking for encouragement that I can turn this mess around; that I can make my M better.
I am sorry for shouting out to specific posters, but some of you have really, really helped me and I'm not sure how to contact you individually. I'm obviously new to posting on a message board, and I'm not sure how long I intend to continue. I don't want to dwell on my past. I want to avoid the mistakes I have made, learn from them and move forward in building my M. And I appreciate all of the input that I have received.
As a WW, I welcome the opportunity to help anyone who has walked in my shoes. The one thing I've learned through all of this is not to judge others for their mistakes, but to help them overcome them. If I can take your advice and apply it to my own life, I believe I can be of service to someone else in the future.
Larry, you may not want to offer me any more advice based on my comments in this post, but I do appreciate your words of wisdom. If you are willing to do so, would you please offer me some further insight on your statement, "Without contact, the brain eventually "Dries up" the receptors that gave us the high and the receptors find other things to do. You can give those receptors a nudge in ways I can explain if you ask." I would appreciate it. If there is a way I can post to you without specifically calling you out on my thread, please let me know.
One final thought before some of you go crazy on this thread and start chastising me for playing the victim, and reminding me of how much I've hurt my family, my H, etc. etc., and that I'm a total POS who's done a horrible thing: Has Lost posted on this thread recently? Where has she gone? Do you think that she got the help she needed?
Oh, oh, oh SC...You are in a hole - the best advice I can give you is to STOP DIGGING!
Originally Posted by springchicken
First off, the POSOM is not married. Second, I apologize if my post sounded like a lecture.
Appreciate the apology - the reason it sounded like a lecture is because it WAS a lecture...Acknowledge that, move on and STOP lecturing, okay?
Originally Posted by springchicken
I appreciate the advice everyone has given me. That being said, many of you have been long on judgment and short on help.
You realize of course that your second sentence canceled out the first entirely, right? SC, don't come back and try to explain - recognize it, vow to knock it off and LAUGH AT YOURSELF! Life really isn't this hard...Stop flailing...
Originally Posted by springchicken
ML, I understand that you think I'm a POS. So do I. So we have something in common. But you have yet to give me one single practical tip to help me recover. I agree with everything you've said to me. I think it's consistent with the advice everyone else has given me. I'm just telling you that it has not been helpful for me. If I want someone to tell me I'm a POS, I can just look in the mirror. I don't need to come on this board for that.
It may surprise you to know that ML and I are friends - She does NOT think of ME as a POS - Of course that is likely because I don't think I'm a POS - The reason I don't think I'm a POS is because I am choosing to live a life filled with GOOD CHOICES now...I would expect both she and I to think I was a POS if I was still making poor life choices and choosing to be bad...
Originally Posted by springchicken
Mrs. W, you are a FWW. Then you should have some ACTUAL TIPS to help me get past this and focus on my M. You said you re-built your marriage and that it's better than before. But you didn't tell me how you put the OM behind you. That's what I want to know. I have read SAA and have read Dr. Harley's advice. I am looking for real life examples of that advice in practice. Please tell me how you used his advice in your own marriage.
You CHOOSE to put OM behind you - It's really that simple - a choice - you realize that that choice may not "feel" good in the short term, but you use logic and reason instead of your feelings and choose what is the obvious right thing...
You choose to practice RADICAL HONESTY with your husband and yourself...
You choose NO CONTACT FOR LIFE...
Here's the BEST lesson I've learned here - hammered into me by MelodyLane as a matter of fact:
FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS
You focus all your energy on YOUR MARRIAGE - on YOUR HUSBAND...MEET HIS NEEDS...
Remember in the affair you focused all of your time and energy on OM and look what happened~~~> Your feelings followed your actions, correct?
So choose HEALTHY, POSITIVE ACTIONS~~~> HEALTHY POSITIVE FEELINGS will be the result...No joke it's that simple...That IS the "magic bullet"...
As as Vittoria told you, STOP TALKING ABOUT OM - The dog you feed is the dog that thrives - Quit feeding the BAD DOG...
INVEST IN LIFE - The life you chose by getting married to your husband...
Have you considered calling the coaching center or attending an MB Weekend? Those are things you can do to INVEST in YOUR LIFE...
Originally Posted by springchicken
If you're not interested in helping me, then please don't post on my thread. i'm not trying to play the "victim" here. I can handle your judgment. It's just that I'm looking for something more concrete and practical. I'm looking for encouragement that I can turn this mess around; that I can make my M better.
Let this kind of stuff go - BE HUMBLE - If you don't like something that is said TODAY, then leave it - "Take what you need and leave the rest" - Come back and read your thread when some time has passed - I bet you will find lots that you left "back then" you'll now want to pick up...
Originally Posted by springchicken
I am sorry for shouting out to specific posters, but some of you have really, really helped me and I'm not sure how to contact you individually. I'm obviously new to posting on a message board, and I'm not sure how long I intend to continue. I don't want to dwell on my past. I want to avoid the mistakes I have made, learn from them and move forward in building my M. And I appreciate all of the input that I have received.
You can't contact people here individually by means of MB - Private messages are disabled on this board with good reason...Hint: When you say "I'm sorry, BUT" you cancel out the "sorry"...
Nor do I "dwell" on my past - It is not who I am today - Today I make good choices - but I will never forget what I did 5 years ago - It will remain BAD to me forever - It will always remain shameful - Nothing that I have done since then and nothing that I will do in the future can change bad into good...
I caution you in telling your BH anything like "I refuse to dwell on my past"...That would be a BAD plan...
Originally Posted by springchicken
As a WW, I welcome the opportunity to help anyone who has walked in my shoes. The one thing I've learned through all of this is not to judge others for their mistakes, but to help them overcome them. If I can take your advice and apply it to my own life, I believe I can be of service to someone else in the future.
Well, with all due respect, as a WW you are not qualified to help anyone - THIS is a case of "put your own oxygen mask on first"...Should you choose to become a FWW, THEN you may have something of value to offer others in the way of help...
Judging bad behavior as bad is NOT a bad thing - It is very valuable - Let me assure you that I absolutely judge my bad behavior as VERY BAD, and I expect others to as well...People that won't knock me silly for my bad behavior are NOT true friends to me, and I don't want or need them in my life...
Originally Posted by springchicken
Larry, you may not want to offer me any more advice based on my comments in this post, but I do appreciate your words of wisdom. If you are willing to do so, would you please offer me some further insight on your statement, "Without contact, the brain eventually "Dries up" the receptors that gave us the high and the receptors find other things to do. You can give those receptors a nudge in ways I can explain if you ask." I would appreciate it. If there is a way I can post to you without specifically calling you out on my thread, please let me know.
Oh I have no doubt that Larry will continue posting to you...
Originally Posted by springchicken
One final thought before some of you go crazy on this thread and start chastising me for playing the victim, and reminding me of how much I've hurt my family, my H, etc. etc., and that I'm a total POS who's done a horrible thing: Has Lost posted on this thread recently? Where has she gone? Do you think that she got the help she needed?
Do you seriously believe that others can make choices for Lost [or anyone else]???? C'mon springchicken, you know better than that, right?
Lose the defensiveness - it will not help you make good and healthy choices...
Some affairs are "one night stands." They usually take place when a spouse is away on a trip, or when one has gone out partying without the other spouse. These relatively loveless affairs usually happen when people drink and lose impulse control. Alcoholics are the ones most likely to have these flings.
Other affairs start as a caring friendship and develop over years to become a complete relationship that solves most emotional and practical issues for the couple. These relationships become so complete and persistent that spouses are eventually divorced, and the lovers are united in marriage.
But most affairs are somewhere in between one night stands and relationships that lead to marriage.
Affairs usually take place because they meet important emotional needs. But most affairs meet only some emotional needs not met in marriage, leaving others that are being met by a spouse. That fact usually rules out the possibility of divorce, at least for the spouse having the affair. The wayward spouse knows that the lover, for some reason, is not able to meet some of the needs met by his or her spouse. So most affairs are never intended to lead to divorce and remarriage, but are "safety-valve" relationships that satisfy a need not met in marriage.
Affairs are intended to be kept secret
Having drawn the above conclusion about the nature of affairs, it should be obvious why most wayward spouses would like their affairs to go undetected. Not only do they want to avoid all the unhappiness that goes with discovery, but they also want to continue the affair as long as it meets needs not met in marriage. In most cases, a lover only meets one or two emotional needs, while the spouse meets others. Unfaithful spouses usually don't want their marriages to end, and yet they want emotional needs met that the spouse does not meet. Discovery of the affair, in most cases, would ruin the "solution" to their problem.
But there comes a time in almost every affair that an unfaithful spouse realizes that it has run it's course, or it wasn't a good idea to begin with. In some cases, it's the lover who ends the relationship, finding that the spouse isn't living up to expectations. And in other cases, it's the spouse that ends it when the disadvantages of the affair begin to outweigh the advantages.
In most cases, affairs end peacefully and in secret. By their very nature, there is not much of a commitment to hold them together, and a desire to do the "right thing" is usually the excuse an unfaithful spouse uses to end it. But the real reason is usually that the affair has become more trouble than it's worth.
Occasionally, a scorned lover will go berserk, call the spouse all hours of the day and night, file lawsuits and create all kinds of trouble. But that's very rare. Affairs usually end quietly.
In the vast majority of cases, affairs are never revealed to spouses. They are usually kept so secret that even when children are born of an affair, the victimized husband is usually not told that the child he is raising is not really his. I know of over 20 instances where a father is unknowingly raising another man's child.
What are the signs of an affair?
Almost everyone denies an affair at first, even when confronted with overpowering evidence. When a woman I counseled broke in on her husband having sex with a neighbor, he tried to convince her that she was having an hallucination.
While seeing your spouse in bed with a lover is sure-fire evidence of an affair, that kind of evidence is usually close to impossible to find. But there are many other less intrusive ways to detect ongoing affairs.
For an unfaithful spouse to engage in an affair without detection, two separate lives must be created, one for the lover and one for the spouse. A certain amount of dishonesty is required in both of them, but the major deception is with the spouse.
So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.
One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.
I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?
Another type of clue is records of communication such as telephone records, letters and e-mail. Most affairs depend on repeated contacts and evidence of those contacts can usually be found. That's how M.S. discovered her husband's affair. When his lover was living in the same city, he was able to hide his affair, but after he moved, it became almost impossible for him to keep his communication a secret. He was addicted to daily contact, and M.S. saw evidence of it almost immediately after the move. But how many people move away from a lover? It's very rare, and if M.S.'s family had not moved, she may never have discovered the affair because she trusted her husband.
When a couple spend their leisure-time away from each other, it is not only a breeding ground for an affair, but it can also be another clue to an affair. That's especially true when a spouse doesn't want the other to be present at their favorite activity. I counseled a man who went fishing every summer for a week with his friends, wives not invited. But they did invite a secretary from work who cooked their meals (and had sex with them all) during the trip.
Anything that takes one spouse away from the other overnight is an invitation for an affair. But when an opposite-sex co-worker tends to join a spouse on business trips, red flags should be flying in all directions. Any evidence that this relationship is anything more than pure business is, from my perspective, a gigantic clue that an affair might be in progress. That's also the case if a spouse and opposite-sex co-worker spend a great deal of time working together.
We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable.
Look what happened to poor Kathy Lee Gifford. She stated publicly and wrote in one of her books that she trusted her husband completely, that he would never cheat on her. But she should not have trusted her husband. If she would have taken the steps she is now taking to help him avoid another affair, the first would never have taken place, and she would have avoided all its pain and embarrassment. I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe.
Should an affair be revealed?
I have been letting you in on some clues to infidelity when a spouse is unwilling to be truthful. But there are a few, of course, who are honest enough to tell their spouses about an affair without being confronted. Guilt sometimes sets in right after the first sexual encounter, and it continues to build as one lie is added to another. Depression follows guilt and it's not unusual for a wayward spouse to even consider suicide as a way to escape the nightmare he or she has created. As an act of desperation, honesty is sometimes seized as a last resort, often in an effort to relieve the feelings of guilt.
From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.
Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.
But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.
It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.
It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.
It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.
After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.
The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.
If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.
How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.
Some affairs, those like the husbands of R.J. and M.S., are discovered by their spouses. But as R.J. and M.S. have seen, knowing about an affair is only the first step toward recovery.
Never see or communicate with a former lover
Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.
The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.
Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?
In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.
Look at M.S.'s husband. Here he is, thousands of miles from his lover, and yet he still feels compelled to call her. Can you imagine the trouble M.S. would have had separating them if they had not moved? Their move was the best thing that could have happened to their marriage because it not only revealed the affair, but it also set up the conditions that would make ending it possible -- total separation.
We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.
How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.
My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.
How to Get Through Withdrawal
In R.J.'s case, his feelings for his wife are as bad as they have ever been. In the case of M.S.'s husband, he is suffering so much that he can no longer make love to his wife, something that had always come very easily to him in the past. What is happening to these men?
They are experiencing symptoms of withdrawal from the addiction they have to their lovers.
As soon as a victimized spouse decides to stay married and struggle through reconciliation, he or she usually sets out to meet whatever needs the lover had been meeting. If it was sex, the spouse offers more and better sex. If it was affection, it's more affection. Both M.S. and R.J.'s wife were willing to do whatever it took to regain their wayward spouses' love.
But it didn't work for either of them. That's because both of their husbands were in withdrawal. They were both addicted to their lovers and separation from them caused them to suffer from depression. That, in turn, made it almost impossible for their spouses to meet their emotional needs. So all of that love and care that was being extended to them was being wasted. Until they would recover from withdrawal, the efforts of their wives to please them will be very disappointing.
Withdrawal is the emotional reaction to the loss of something that gives great pleasure. It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs, but they also miss the person they had come to love.
Our most common emotions are anger, anxiety and depression. Symptoms of withdrawal usually include all of these in a very intense form. I usually suggest that anti-depressant medication be used to help alleviate these symptoms. While the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade.
It is extremely likely that a commitment to remain separated from a lover will be broken unless extreme measures are taken to avoid it. That's because the emotional reaction of withdrawal is so painful. Honesty is an extremely important element in reconciliation, and it should be understood that if the unfaithful spouse ever sees or communicates with the lover, he or she should immediately tell the spouse that it happened. They should then agree on a plan that would prevent a recurrence of contact in the future. But as soon as any contact is made, it throws the unfaithful spouse back to the beginning of withdrawal, and the time it takes to overcome the feelings of grief begins all over again.
There's a sense in which M.S.'s husband was in withdrawal even before M.S. discovered Learn More!
"Surviving an Affair" the affair. As soon as the move was made, he became depressed, and what M.S. noticed the most was his lack of interest in sex. Depression will do that to you (and so will anti-depressant medication -- one of it's only side effects is a loss of sex drive).
If M.S.'s husband were to avoid talking to his lover for three weeks, it's likely that his sex drive would start to return, since the worst symptoms of withdrawal would probably have ended. He has a long history of sexual interest in his wife, and I guarantee that he will eventually do just fine in bed.
The problem that R.J. may soon face is that his wife's cheerful attitude will wear thin. There's no telling how much longer she can try to please him without an approving response from him. Sometimes I tell spouses to just avoid each other until the withdrawal stage passes because all the effort to be kind and thoughtful is easily wasted until they start feeling better.
It's the stage of recovery after withdrawal that gives spouses the best opportunity to learn to meet each other's most important emotional needs and overcome Love Busters. Spouses should save their most tolerant mood for that stage, where they could both be receptive to each other's care. And that will be the subject of next week's column: Learning to meet each other's needs after an affair.
I have read the posts and been asked not to participate. I came for help and feel that what sc has said suffices for me. There is a lot of condemnation and little help. I've read the books, the basic concepts, etc. There is a lot of anger and judgment being cast about. If I wasn't looking for help, I wouldn't have come here. There certainly is a lot of name calling. I expect that my M will ultimately end and has nothing to do with OM. The pain all around is too much to overcome. I defend that doing bad things doesn't make you a bad person. I believe that hurting people isn't good, lying isn't good, and setting a bad example isn't good, but that doesn't make me a bad person. I think that I'm a good person that has lost her way - hence my name. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. There appear to be lots of sinless people on this board because the stones have been flying fast and furiously. Good luck Spring with your recovery and hope that this boar! d will provide you with the support you need to make it through.
Straight out of the MB textbook, MrsW had given you advice on what to DO that is constructive. Read what she has said in her latest post. Attitude allows action. Action allows change. Change allows recovery. Form follows function. What you do breeds who you are.
What you do molds how you think and who you are. Guilt and shame are motivators to change or to make excuses. It looks to me as if you are wanting the change. BUT, I am not and have never been a WW, so I yield to those who have been to spot the details of a block to progress, a blind canyon of mental process that holds up recovery.
Now. . .
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Larry, you may not want to offer me any more advice based on my comments in this post, but I do appreciate your words of wisdom. If you are willing to do so, would you please offer me some further insight on your statement, "Without contact, the brain eventually "Dries up" the receptors that gave us the high and the receptors find other things to do. You can give those receptors a nudge in ways I can explain if you ask." I would appreciate it. If there is a way I can post to you without specifically calling you out on my thread, please let me know.
Ok.
First of all, no contact for life. No contact for life! You have been told this before. Do whatever it takes to stop all contact with the POSOM. Resolve to have no contact for life.
Write the letter, then do it.
Next, start the MB process with your husband. Court him, flirt with him, remember the real details of your history with him instead of the stuff you told yourself to justify your affair.
If he knows only part of the truth, tell him all of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Start a new relationship with your husband based on a foundation of honesty.
Replace the thoughts of POSOM with thoughts of husband.
There are not shortcuts. There is no wiggle room for skipping parts of the plan like no contact or lack of honesty. Do all of the deal or fester in one spot, unable to move forward.
I have read the posts and been asked not to participate. I came for help and feel that what sc has said suffices for me. There is a lot of condemnation and little help. I've read the books, the basic concepts, etc. There is a lot of anger and judgment being cast about. If I wasn't looking for help, I wouldn't have come here. There certainly is a lot of name calling. I expect that my M will ultimately end and has nothing to do with OM. The pain all around is too much to overcome. I defend that doing bad things doesn't make you a bad person. I believe that hurting people isn't good, lying isn't good, and setting a bad example isn't good, but that doesn't make me a bad person. I think that I'm a good person that has lost her way - hence my name. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. There appear to be lots of sinless people on this board because the stones have been flying fast and furiously. Good luck Spring with your recovery and hope that this board will provide you with the support you need to make it through.
Tell me please what you use to determine if someone is a "bad person" or a "good person" if not behavior?
"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away, they are barefoot, and you have their shoes."
Then you should have some ACTUAL TIPS to help me get past this and focus on my M. You said you re-built your marriage and that it's better than before. But you didn't tell me how you put the OM behind you. That's what I want to know.
You have been advised several several times that 100% NC is the only way you will be able to get over the OM and rebuild your M. Are you going to address this or continue gaslighting us?
I have read the posts and been asked not to participate. I came for help and feel that what sc has said suffices for me. There is a lot of condemnation and little help. I've read the books, the basic concepts, etc. There is a lot of anger and judgment being cast about. If I wasn't looking for help, I wouldn't have come here. There certainly is a lot of name calling. I expect that my M will ultimately end and has nothing to do with OM. The pain all around is too much to overcome. I defend that doing bad things doesn't make you a bad person. I believe that hurting people isn't good, lying isn't good, and setting a bad example isn't good, but that doesn't make me a bad person. I think that I'm a good person that has lost her way - hence my name. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. There appear to be lots of sinless people on this board because the stones have been flying fast and furiously. Good luck Spring with your recovery and hope that this board will provide you with the support you need to make it through.
Lost,
I will try one time to reach you (apologize for the TJ here, Spring, but maybe this will benefit you, even if Lost ignores �hearing what she doesn�t want to hear�).
I know that sometimes a WS comes here and feels �attacked� or �name-called�. If you look carefully, you will notice that such things only tend to happen when the WS is in denial, blame-shifting, making excuses, or otherwise doesn�t want to choose the �straight-and-narrow-path� by ENDING THEIR AFFAIR AND ACCEPTING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
It is all too common for such-WSs to cite the Biblical �let he who is without sin cast the first stone� defense. I heard it verbatim from my then-WW and several of her enabling family members. No one is saying than any of us is �perfect�. No one is saying that any BS has been �mistake-free�. What is being done is pointing out that the current path of the active or unrepentant WS is unjustified, emotionally-driven, self-delusional, and highly-destructive to ALL PARTIES involved. You know, I have noticed that whenever that Biblical reference is made is justify or excuse infidelity/unrepentance, there is always a key portion at the end of the story conveniently omitted�Jesus, after dismissing the stoners, said to the adulteress:
�Now go�and sin no more.�
No one here wants to stone the WS; we do want the WS to �go and sin no more�. That is the ONLY way to begin recovering a person, a life, and a marriage. I hope you can see that key difference here. I hope you can find the inner courage to admit that knowingly continuing in wrong (and you did confess that you know �hurting people isn't good, lying isn't good, and setting a bad example isn't good�) is WRONG & BAD, no matter how �good� a person the WS was before they became �lost�.
Yes, Ms. Lost, your marriage may �ultimately end� and, if it does, that will sadly be because of the choices you have made and refused to repudiate. There is a big difference between someone who genuinely comes here for �help� and someone who comes here for adultery-validation and a pat on the head�we can tell. I hope that you can turn yourself around before divorce and family-destruction becomes another sadly-avoidable reality for you.
And please don�t try to bamboozle any of us with the tired WW-line that all this �has nothing to do with OM�. Every BS, myself included, has heard that lame, don�t-want-to-look-in-the-mirror nonsense ad nauseum. God gave us all a free will. If you choose to destroy your marriage, at least do it with a shred of respect for those you are betraying�tell them the truth. Tell them that you chose to break your vows, hurt others, lie to those close to you, indulge your immoral desires, and that you are leaving to continue your adultery. At least be honest.
My husband tried to end the affair 3 times while continuing to work with the OW. IT DOES NOT WORK!!! There will always end up being a reason you need to talk. In my case, my WH swears that they were talking as friends (she continued to email and call at work) and that the "Affair" had ended, but for me it had not ended. You cannot have contact if you expect your BS to recover.
. I defend that doing bad things doesn't make you a bad person. I believe that hurting people isn't good, lying isn't good, and setting a bad example isn't good, but that doesn't make me a bad person
I heard this before...... It came out of the man who molested my daughter when he was throwing himself on the mercy of the courts.....THANKFULLY it didn't work.... And it's not going to work here either.....
Just knowing the tiniest piece of information I wrote above, how would YOU judge this man???
People who tout the ol' "Dont judge me" line usually only preface that when they are about to reveal something bad about themselves or when they have been caught doing bad. It is human nature to judge ALL behavior, be it good or bad. That is how we determine who we want to date, marry, be friends with, who we want to trust out children with......
It is extremely hypocritical to say, "who are you to judge me?" when YOU are judging us for judging you......
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There appear to be lots of sinless people on this board because the stones have been flying fast and furiously.
Nope....no one here claimed to winless.....we all KNOW we are not. And in fact, most us have posted our sins in detail all over these boards.......it's just that for SOME of us those sins don't include adultery.....
SC, when you finally drop the defense of yourself, THAT is when you will learn what you need to fix your marriage....and not one moment before....
SC, you said you wanted to hear from FWW's who have walked in your shoes AND come out the other side. So here's who you listen to: someone who has actually done the walking and isn't shuffling around on the wrong side. If I am an alcoholic who wants help, I don't need to spend my time at a bar hearing about how all the other alcoholics knows how I feel. I need people around me who are ACTUALLY RECIVERING!
People like Mrs. W are on the other side. She KNOWS how to get there. THAT is who you need to listen to. And the other people here who have recovered, BS's and FWS's, they know how to get there because they have actually done it. Please listen to them.
Ok Spring I can share a little of my story and I hope it helps. It will be a story full of holes and details that are relevant to my complete story but we don't have that kind of time to hear all of my stuff so here goes with what might help you.
It is long but I felt it was important to be comepletly transparent and leave it up to the reader to eat the meat and spit out the bones according to what they get out of it. Its about how I came to commit adultry and all the reasons I thought I had a right to. Its full of my own misconceptions and pain that I used to justify it and in the end how I was just fooling myself.
My second wife had a drinking problem which when she drank, she would hook up with other men. For the first couple years I gave her grace because she had gotten pregnant out of wedlock and when she was seen by the doctor found out she had advanced cervical cancer and she was sure she was going to die. Her behaviour got worse after the baby was born and the cancer was removed and when my daughter was 1 1/2 I couldn't take it anymore. I was never a heavy drinker and had seen alcohol destroy so many people so I hated it even more because it was destroying her and therefore me and our marriage. I was working and studing to get better work while she bindged in and out of life doing what alcoholics do.
I evenually saw that it was not me that could save her and at beat I was an enabler and a fool. A fool because I thought I could love her out of it. Dr H explains that untill someone stops thier love affair with substances there can be no work done on the marriage. I didn't have him around to tell me that but many who had experience told me she was in love with the bottle and it became obvious to me that I was in love with myself trying to be the hero. It was very painful to realize that I had made it easy for her by accepting her treatment of me. I was part of the problem. As much as I pleaded her to stop drinking and seek help she would not accept anything I asked and insisted I knew nothing and God would deal with her because only he loved her. I Agreed that God knew her best but God had rules about self-abuse and he had set her free. Why would she believe that she would survive this or was any different than his other creations? It was an argument that showed she was not truly repentant and as long as I was around I was delegated to serve whatever God she worshipped.
My God gave us freedom from fear of man. Hers must use manipulation. I wanted no part of that but I could not educate her because the bottle loved her more than me and she found peace in it along with the freedom to do whatever she felt. She didn't love me and inside I felt unlovable but knew I wasn't. What was i to do?
Around that time I ran into an old flame in a store. This was a girl I was very much in love with but had decided to cut it off because she was young when I met her and realized she still wanted to go out and party. I was 24 and she was 19 when I met her. Although I thought she was very mature for her age she was not done with the party scene and at 24 I was. I knew if I pursued a relationship with her I would probably bring her into my life which had to many issues that she was not responsible for and it wouldn't be fair. So I broke her heart caullously so we would not have a chance of getting back together. I thought I was cruel to be kind. In my mind there was this memory of how much I loved the kind of young woman she was and the dream I kept inside that maybe someday after I finished school in 7 years...but she got married 6 months after I broke up with her and I tossed that dream as foolish.. I met my second wife a year later after I broke up with her.
The old flame was now divorced.. my head spun.. What if I had not felt like such a loser? Did I marry my present wife becuase of my own insecurities? Me and the old flame used to talk about God which was something I never had in my first marriage and Old Flame and present wife came from the same church.
It opened my mind to posibilitys that I was not responsible for my wives drinking because I wasn't making enough money or wasn't Godly enough which was what was keeping me in the place of slavery. I was certainly a verifiable mess and staying with my present wife was doing no good for her. At the same time it was time for me to depend on God for answers on what I did with my life. I desired to be loved and respected but I knew the old flame was not the answer. I wanted to run away from my current wife because of the pain she was causing. I started making a plan that would allow me to get my young daughter away from her because my wife was twisted. It was time to run and start a new life. The old flame opened my mind to possibilitys even though I didn't pursue them.
I left my wife with her foster family because I knew my daughter would be cared for by them. I started to take very good care of myself, I had becaome a insulin dependant diabetic 3 years prior and diet was very important so I followed that religiuosly which helped me enormously. I worked two jobs to catch up on all the bills that had accumilated and sought out some therapy from every possible source I could including going back to alanon and talking about how I had stopped enabling her. My plan was to stay single and work on what I knew would be something my children would need when they grew older. A stable and responsible Dad who would be able to care for them in thier older years not just with money, but with a good head on his shoulders. My wife had gotten pregnant for our second child and still drank shortly before I moved her to her foster moms. I was on a desparate quest to save the innocent children and my wife was living the nightmare that she would turn out like her Mom. The one I thought I was there to save her from.
There was no chance of reconciliation, I told her to move on. I had no plans to have a relationship with another woman to make me "feel" better. I knew guys who said I should go out and sleep with some girl from the local bar to make me feel better but I was never really that good at that. They told me I was to seriuos but I knew that they wern't seriuos enough. I never saw any of those bar-room fantasys turn out well and didn't need that at all. I kept myself focused on work and dealing with the pleads from my wife wanting me to come get her, drinking and all, and bringing her home.
After 7 months in her home state she hit rock-bottom. Her foster Dad had moved her into a motel because he couldn't stand her drunken rages. Wife contacted her church, the church she said had saved her at 18, the one she was embarrassed to go back to because she had left, started drinking, gotten involved with me,and pregnant out of wedlock. The church that she was embarrassed to bring me to. The one that had the only man she ever respected as Pastor. The one in my opinion she should have shopped for a husband in. I told her she should because she needed someone strong in the faith who could counter her biblical snipes at me with ones that she could respect. I wanted her to be OK and healthy. I still felt it was me who was so arrogent at first to think I could help her. She needed whatever she percieved as a better man but I couldn't live with her under the mantle of idiot any longer. I wasn't and never have been stupid or a coward and thats what our relationship made me feel like. If she thought I was weak then that would have to be her problem, not mine anymore.
My friends were not the type to go to church and were mostly the "street-smart" kind. I ussually spent many hours in conversations arguing that picking up women from bars for one-night stands was worthless and dangerous and that love was more than a romp in the hay. One aquaintence in particular I took under my wing to teach him how to stop being afraid of work. He teetered on the brink of letting the world pay his way and mooching off others but I saw inteligence and sensitivity in him, buried mind you but there. He was the type to pick up girls in bars and because of his slight build,(he looked like dustin hoffman), and ability to carry on conversations on most subjects he slipped in past womens radar and ussually got what he wanted. Then he would tell me about it as I dragged him to work the next day. To me it was a project and study of the enemy at the same time. A place I should never have been. This guy constantly told me of his exploits and battled me about how I thought it was sleazy. The only misconception I shared with him was that a man needed sex to feel OK. That it was sometimes compartmentalized and desensitized down to a managable need that could be fufilled outside of a relationship. I struggled with myself and thought I would be more "normal" if I could do this because I felt there was something wrong with me. Truth is there was nothing wrong, just different than the norm displayed in the 70s and what was different was what made me right in my instincts. If I hadn't tried to walk the line between morallity and the bar-scene I wouldn't have this problem. I was allowing my pride and pain to rule what I "thought" I "needed". Wanting to be something I was not.
After 7 months of separation and hanging around with the wrong people I started recieving phone calls from a woman, a friend of a different friend who he had dated before. I kept it simple and explained I wasn't looking for relationship but she still flirted while acting not "really" interested. I talked to her maybe three times about whatever and didn't pursue her. One night when me and my sleazy friend stopped work we went to a bar. I sent him in so I could check my bloodsugar and stayed outside for 5 mins. I was frustrated to the max. I couldn't bring myself to approach women for sex. I remember looking up to the sky and asking whatever power that be to provide a women for me to make love with with no strings. Be careful what you ask for? The girl approched me in the bar, I went home with her, the fantasy started and I thought the desire she had towards me was magical. It was written in the stars. She wanted me and me her but it was all in my head and hers as life played it out and a year later she, on good advice from her therapist asked me to never return.
During that year the relationship went thru stages. At first it was me telling her thier was no way we could be together permanantly. I explained all the reasons why but she wanted it even more. If I was hardened like the rest of the guys I knew I would have never called the next day but I wanted that easy thing everyone else had. I had suffered enough right? I deserved to be happy to right? It was selfishness that drove me and bitterness that allowed it It was no longer about tenderness and intimacy but about fear and control. The very things that hurt me I was part of now. The more the OW wanted me the more loved I felt. My wife had come back to our hometown and was sober attending church now. I was involved with her and when I saw her she offered herself to me and I took it whenever I could. Her words from God and how she had repented bounced right off of me. It was just more bull that she was using to get her way IMO. She had her chance I was not giving my heart back to her.
Wife waited 1 1/2 years while hearing from me I was never coming back and fending off other suitors from her church and being told by a pastor she should give up. She took he blame and was waiting for God to bring me home. I still trusted a God that we go to his delegated authoritys with when we need help. Not one who allows us to continually abuse ourselves and justify it. She was a physically beautiful woman and I was confidant that she would be OK if she would just recieve the right kind of help. I was done with that, not because I didn't love who she was under all the craap but because she didn't love me as I was before. She was using our savior to her own hurt and thats not the God I (thought), I knew.
I went through many changes during the year of my affair. Whenever the OW would ask me if it was important to put the past behind us so we could be together I thought of my wife. If that was fair why not to her? The OW even attempted suicide once and we went to her counsellor a couple times to seek answers about fights and other things that came into the picture as reality set in. I was using her. I talked to a priest in her church and assisted in the baptism of her two children from previous marriage and relationship. I was so foggy that in the beginning of the relationship when she brought out the books on astrology,(Which I laughed at), I started to study it intensly to see what, if any, merit it carried in who I was and what I could do to fix myself. The relationship with OW had a lot of sexual "chemistry" and it took some time for me to see that even though it might be in the stars love was far beyond that and God made the stars and is the Author of love.
At the end of the affair the OW had told me she didn' t care what I did and I should go back to my wife if I wanted to. She had lent me a book by Scott Peck called "THe road less traveled" during my time with her. In that book I read again that Love was not a feeling. I also heard about how children who were loved and stuck by through anything did much better than those abandoned regaurdless of circumctances. I thought of my children, those innocent children who would be effected by the loss of thier father and my wives different God who allowed her the selfishness of entertaining the demons she herself was running away from. The ones who she was so afraid of being controlled by like her family was. The ones I wanted so much to protect her from as I loved her unconditionally in the past,(so I thought I could anyway). She was controlling her drinking, my daughter wanted daddy to come home from "colledge" as my wife told her. I had seen again how my emotions and reactions had screwwed up someone else. I was out of excuses. My existance and what I percieved as eventual carreer and financial security was no longer as important as the security I would give my children if I stayed with them through anything. I was painfully made aware that I was allowing my own feelings to be more important than my childrens and whatever I did I needed to stop that. I had fallen and failed to stay strong for my wife and children. I could have done anything but seek my own ego to be restored. I had jumped from the frying pan to the fire. I had confirmed the fear my wife was living inside instead of denying its reality. I could have made it a condition that she go to AA before we got back together but instaed I wanted to be her all in all and saviuor. The thing she convinced me in my foolish self-righteous straight-laced-hardworking poor-me mind.
On paying a visit to wifes house she had a couple friends over. I was talking to them about astrology and chemistry and how certain people are attracted to personality types and they didn't bat an eye. "Oh, you mean "soul-power" relationships. Yes they are very powerful but God is greater" I had studied astrology down to the symbolism used by ancient astromters since they used to believe that events were able to be predicted by planets and stars. Not the ones who tell you your lucky numbers or who you should be with that day. The strict observations and symbols given for the "gods" they worshipped then. It became apparent to anyone that if you take the fact that nobody will be born with the same attributes metaphisically as you for 10,000 years, and those combinations according to astrologers have extreme differances from anyone else, and combine that with your personal experiances and realitivity to the time you are living. You indeed are like nobody ever created and it is true that we are different than anybody else ever born. Its no wonder God calls it witchcraft.
1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
It became apparent that I was looking for help in the wrong places. I was broken again but my time was best spent with my wife and children and my new old enemy was whatever caused my wife and children fear.
There is much more to my story but there is where the affair went full circle. Our marriage had an upspike as my wife did not return for many years to substance abuse and the children had dodged the bullet that was hunting them down. If wife was open to help from outside sources she would be alive today and praising this site and its practical wisdom and knowledge The Harleys give for Gods most valuable gift in relationships.
Seeing ourselves and how selfish we can become is painful. running away from it was not Gods intention as we learn that his laws were put here to protect us from ourselves.
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Being married is a selfish love. As humans we are conditional in our love. We love because we are loved. We follow the rules because we want to be loved. We forgive because we want to restore love. Having an affair hurt me and my family and probably my wifes recovery from substance abuse and fears she had all her young life. I came back without a solid plan or the proper self-worth to insist she go to counselling before we got back together. My affair clouded the original issue that caused the pain that drove me to the affair. I have seen that long ago but have to live now with the fact that some things must be dealt with directly and taken accountability for to heal. Or they exist as lies we tell ourselves that God would gladly wipe from our lives if we just admitted we need help. It takes time to forgive ourselves just as it takes time to forgive others. Its just our human condition and that doesn't change. Its painful because we must mourn our own misconceptions of who we think we are and why we did what we did but in doses of reaping the consequences we come to full repentance. Which is all we can ever be capable of.
It is comforting to know that Gods love and the rules laid out in places like this can save us from ourselves when we apply them to our lives. Ignore the temptation to believe that its hopeless because others are pointing out your mistakes. As you probably have been learning in life
Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
You will come through this with the help of many different perspectives
Thank you for that Breezemb. I appreciate all the advice from everyone, and I appreciate that some of the harsh words were meant for Lost, but I see no need to attack either Lost or me. Both of us are on this board to seek help. Believe me, I KNOW there are plenty of waywards who could care less about saving their marriages, and would not even come near a message board in attempt to save their marriages. I am certainly not a saint, but I am seeking help, as I'm sure Lost is doing as well. if this board is truly going to help marriages, then you have to appreciate the perspective of BOTH the wayward AND the betrayed. Then you will have real insight into how to save the marriage. Personal attacks do nothing more than encourage the wayward to ditch the board and continue in the fog. Shame encourages dishonesty, not disclosure, even though full disclosure is what is needed to save the M.
On a separate note, I do want to thank those of you who have shared your experiences with me and given me some very good, practical advice. Especially SCDW, Lurioosi and Larry. And I liked the advice from the person who suggested the rubber band trick. I need that kind of advice to pull me through the fog. And I also appreciate the perspective of Lost. She is clearly experiencing a lot of the feelings that I am experiencing, and it helps to know that I am not alone. I think the biggest struggle the wayward experiences is the feeling that they are all alone in their struggle. The betrayed goes through he77, I understand that, but at least they can share their pain with their family, their friends, their pastor, and even their spouse. The wayward has no where to go--except to the OM which DOES NOT HELP the M, only perpetuates the ugly cycle. That is why I reached out to this site. I had no one to talk to or share my experience with except the OM which I did not want to do. And I truly appreciate the help that many of you have given me. Please keep the practical advice coming. I don't mind constructive criticism, but I have already called myself every name in the book already, as I'm sure Lost has as well. Don't encourage us to leave the board and the only support system that we have right now. Your advice, your help and your war stories are the only thing helping me to stay focused on my M right now. Without it, I would be too tempted to return to the fog.
This is when I started my post , book, larry lol top that!
I think the biggest struggle the wayward experiences is the feeling that they are all alone in their struggle.
This is by CHOICE! You will remain alone as long as you CHOOSE to be dishonest with all those around you.
I�m not calling you a name here, just pointing out the obvious�� but YOU are currently an unrepentant adulteress.
You will be considered a repentant adulteress once you are honest with all of the people in your life. And do a 180!
So ��.
STEP 1) Get Honest with your Husband, your children, your extended family, your employer, your Minister, your friends, and your neighbors.
HONESTY! It is an action you choose and it comes before all other actions, OK!
Do this and the next step will be possible.
If you don�t do this then NOTHING else is possible�� So far you�ve NOT done this�.. So get into gear and start making those calls and having those face to face talks.
When I did this, I explained that my wife did not get to vote about my adultery therefore the psycho-babble crap that it takes two to create the marital problem didn�t fly any longer. It took two adulterers for sure, but not a husband and wife to make adultery occur. OK so, that should be clear!
HONESTY! Pretty simple really. You don�t even need to understand Dr. Harley�s program to complete this ACTION STEP�
Originally Posted by springchicken
The betrayed goes through he77, I understand that, but at least they can share their pain with their family, their friends, their pastor, and even their spouse.
The reason this is true is����.. They are practicing STEP 1 - HONESTY!
Originally Posted by springchicken
The wayward has no where to go--except to the OM which DOES NOT HELP the M, only perpetuates the ugly cycle. That is why I reached out to this site. I had no one to talk to or share my experience with except the OM which I did not want to do.
The reason this is true is����.. You have not completed STEP 1 - HONESTY!
Any tip given to you to stop your mind focusing on OM is wasted while you continue to work at the same place that he does. As long as this situation continues, your mind will not stop focusing on him, and you cannot rebuild your marriage.
Any tip given to you to stop your mind focusing on OM is wasted while you continue to work at the same place that he does. As long as this situation continues, your mind will not stop focusing on him, and you cannot rebuild your marriage.
Yes SpringChicken, this is what you need to change before your head has any hope of clearing. Trust this. they know of which they speak
ML, I understand that you think I'm a POS. So do I. So we have something in common. But you have yet to give me one single practical tip to help me recover.
She told you to quit your job and expose to the other man's wife, if he has one. (I see that he doesn't.) Both of those are excellent pieces of advice. She also told you to be honest with your husband, which is spectacular advice.
That's the only way that works; take it, or leave it. I'm sure you feel you can figure it out fine on your own, though.
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I agree with everything you've said to me.
Then why aren't you taking her advice?
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Mrs. W, you are a FWW. Then you should have some ACTUAL TIPS to help me get past this and focus on my M. You said you re-built your marriage and that it's better than before. But you didn't tell me how you put the OM behind you. That's what I want to know.
I understand you wanting to keep some kind of contact with OM...I know you think you can control yourself and maybe you can physically; however, you can't control your mind and you can't make good decisions while he is still in the picture. I know this now. I too am not always certain if my marriage will survive; however, I know that in order to make that decision and feel like it is truly the right one, I have to do it with NO outside influence from OM. Anything less would not be honest and I don't want to continue being dishonest to myself and others.
That being said, many of you have been long on judgment and short on help. ML, I understand that you think I'm a POS. So do I.
I have to disagree you with you here, SC. The problem is that you are SHORT on judgment, which has led to your current dilemma. So short in fact, that you no longer can judge right from wrong. You are so short on judgment that you have lost all touch with reality and can't see yourself clearly, much less be honest about who you are really are.
You seem to expect others to be as dishonest in that clarity of vision, but you won't find that here, except maybe with other sympathetic foghorns. The first step in recovery is to GET HONEST with yourself.
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But you have yet to give me one single practical tip to help me recover. I agree with everything you've said to me.
Yet another foggy statement. Here is what I told you the first day:
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The solution is to stop being a coward and tell your H you can't stay there. Tell him why. Then go to Human Resources and tell them about your affair and ask them to transfer you or take a leave of absence.
In the meantime, get your resume out there and start looking for a job.
That is not only "practical," it is the only solution to your problem.
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I think it's consistent with the advice everyone else has given me. I'm just telling you that it has not been helpful for me.
Again, you are the LEAST qualifed person on this thread to decide what is "helpful" and not helpful. How would you know? Your best thinking got you in this mess, after all. So, I would stress that you are not the best judge of what is helpful. Leave that to the rest of us.
It's been one year since I've posted anything on these boards, but after lurking on this thread, I thought I'd offer my perspective as a FWW. I had an A with a much younger co-worker, and, like WPG, it was mostly the conversation I craved. And the attention was nice as well. I despised my behavior and still do. When my H found out, I tried to break contact with the OM, but it was difficult because we continued to work together, and it was like an alcoholic working at a bar. I was addicted to the relationship and had difficulty breaking free. I sought help dealing with the situation on these boards, and I was extremely blessed to be offered a job with a different company about 6 months ago. That's when NC really began for me. OM texted me shortly after I started my new job, and H found out. H sent him a threatening email and I never heard from or contacted OM again.
For the past 5 months, H and I have been working on rebuilding our M. We have done amazingly well, and I feel like I'm getting my old life back. Unlike WPG, I suffered a lot of withdrawal at the beginning. Depression. Suicidal thoughts. But I leaned on God and He brought me through. I became active in my Church again and stronger in my faith.
So why am I lurking on these boards one year later? Because OM has contacted me again. A month ago, he sent me another text and I ignored it completely. But then he sent me another one about a month later. This time I was mad. He had the ability to throw me into a tailspin just by sending me a text every time he got drunk. Unfortunately, in my anger, I sent him an email from my work address telling him to not contact me again. I should have ignored it.
Long story short, we have exchanged a couple of emails. I admit, I was curious about him. But I don't want to go back to that dark place. It's amazing to me how someone can come so far and be thrown right back to square one in an instant. I have made it clear that I will not see him or resume our A. But, I know that in order to save the M, I will have to break off all contact.
For all you Former Waywards out there, listen to me. Don't look back. Ever. Just focus on going forward and never break no contact. Trust me--withdrawal, no matter how awful it is the first time--it's no better the second time around.
And for all of you who have walked in my shoes, I would appreciate your encouragement and words of wisdom yet again.
Have you told your BH about the renewed contact and the extent of it?
Long story short, we have exchanged a couple of emails. I admit, I was curious about him. But I don't want to go back to that dark place. It's amazing to me how someone can come so far and be thrown right back to square one in an instant. I have made it clear that I will not see him or resume our A. But, I know that in order to save the M, I will have to break off all contact.
You don't even need us to tell you what to do. Because if you were in the least serious, you would have already done it. How hard would it have been to change #s so the OM could not reach you? Yet you didn't do it. You didn't bother to even do Step #1 in recovery from an affair which is to affair proof your marriage. That is because you aren't serious.
You are dangerous to your husband. The best advice we can give you is to tell your husband what you have done to him ............AGAIN.... so he can protect himself from you. For someone to do this to a man over and over again is beyond CRUEL. CRUEL. You have no excuse anymore. NONE.
So please tell your H what you have done to him and send him here so we can help him.
So why am I lurking on these boards one year later? Because OM has contacted me again. A month ago, he sent me another text and I ignored it completely. But then he sent me another one about a month later. This time I was mad. He had the ability to throw me into a tailspin just by sending me a text every time he got drunk. Unfortunately, in my anger, I sent him an email from my work address telling him to not contact me again. I should have ignored it.
Correction: "Because OM was ALLOWED to contact me again." <-------because this very wayward poster isn't the slightest bit serious about protecting her husband from her cruelty.
As I said a year ago: "short on judgement........."
ML--no disrespect, but you are a BS. And you speak from the perspective a BS. And you should be careful about your posts and your advice. I left these boards a year ago because of your comments. They were hurtful and unhelpful. You did not help the situation, and you're not helping me now. Why are you on these boards, and please stop commenting on my posts. WPG speculated on why there were no WW posting on these boards. This is why. I specifically requested that WWs respond to my post. Unless you have walked in my shoes, you have no business casting stones.
ML--no disrespect, but you are a BS. And you speak from the perspective a BS. And you should be careful about your posts and your advice. I left these boards a year ago because of your comments.
Oh no, you left because you are not serious. No one is fooled by that at all. No one has to walk in your shoes to know that. Make no mistake about that.
And I will not stop responding to your post.
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You did not help the situation, and you're not helping me now.
You are the least qualified person on this thread to determine what is and isn't helpful. Is the falling down drunk qualified to lecture the sober people on what is or isn't helpful? Your best thinking got you in this mess, dear.
What is not shocking is that you feel entitled to get advice from a WS...entitled to having someone cajoling you into doing the right thing... That is a very wayward mentality so I am not surprised at all.
Unless you have walked in my shoes, you have no business casting stones.
Since we are throwing around Bible verses, did you miss the part about thou shalt not commit adultery? Thou shalt not lie? I bet you weren't throwing around Bible verses when you were taking down your panties with the OM, were you?
So your use of them now is a little more than hypocritical.
If you want help here, SC, you are going to have to get honest. Folks here will be glad to help you, but they won't enable you. Bullsh** has a very short shelf life here.
ML--no disrespect, but you are a BS. And you speak from the perspective a BS. And you should be careful about your posts and your advice. I left these boards a year ago because of your comments. They were hurtful and unhelpful. You did not help the situation, and you're not helping me now. Why are you on these boards, and please stop commenting on my posts. WPG speculated on why there were no WW posting on these boards. This is why. I specifically requested that WWs respond to my post. Unless you have walked in my shoes, you have no business casting stones.
Springchicken, I've walked in your shoes. There is very consistent & good advice given here on these message-boards, consistent with advice given by the Harleys, that in order to give themselves the best chance to recover their marriages, and out of basic courtesy toward their spouses (look up & read about the so-called "Rule of Protection"), wayward and would-be former wayward spouses should be proactive in cutting off all avenues of contact with their former affair partners. You've gotten 16 pages of great advice from some of the best around, people who flat-out know this stuff -- Pepperband, SugarCane, Melody Lane & others, as well as Tawandabelle, HerPapaBear, Staytogether and MrsW -- the last 4 former waywards all, who have indeed walked in your shoes -- regarding the crucial importance of cutting off avenues of contact with an affair partner.
And you disregarded it, discounted it, and came up with excuses as to why it wasn't relevant or necessary or convenient for you. (Only to admit in your other post that it was pretty on-target.)
Following this advice, there ought to have been no way for your former affair partner to text you. He should never have had your text number, because you should have changed it long ago. OK, that's water under the bridge. It's the past & you can't undo it. What matters now is, are you going to fix it today, in order to give your marriage a better shot against tomorrow?
Recovering a marriage requires a thick skin. It requires a willingness to take a hard, cold, self-critical look at one's own actions & inactions -- choices all -- and to resolve to make better choices. It requires a willingness to learn & practice empathy with the pain that our spouses suffer when we cheat on them -- which is why the perspectives of the BSs here on these boards are so very valuable to any wayward who is truly serious about overcoming the shortcomings that led him or her to choose infidelity. It requires a certain humility -- the humility to admit to one's self, "I've made a whole sequence of [selfish/amoral/immoral/corrupt/dishonest - pick one that most suits you] choices that placed my [needs/wants/convenience] before that of others, and I need to make better choices."
Maybe you've got all of those attributes in spades -- the thick skin, the openness to introspection, the empathy, the humility. Maybe. If so, it just doesn't come across in your words here today. Not a bit. And we're not mind-readers -- your words here are all we've got to go on, so don't hold that against us.
Someone like Melody Lane has every right to cast stones at me. Back in August of 2009, she tossed a few in my direction, before I even knew enough to know it was part of what I needed. And I'm grateful for it.
But this isn't about her. Why do you post here, Spingchicken? What is it you want, if not the truth, and the best guidance regarding the best path forward, from people who've been in your shoes as well as those of your spouse? Or are you just looking for some sycophant who will validate your seat-of-the-pants, "I know best what's best for me" approach to recovering a marriage after infidelity?
You want advice from a wayward? Here's some: (1) Tell your husband about the latest episode of mutual contact with OM. (2) Change your text number.
Please report back once you've done (1) and (2). Until you've done those things, you'll not have done what you should do.
Here's some more advice. From a former bs yet again!
Hon, next time you get thrown into a tizzy because you got drunk dialed by a unscrupulous, sleazy man who wishes to bang a married woman, maybe you should consider the fact that your recovery may just not even BE a recovery. If you can't take the heat, this chicken needs to get out of the pot!
If somebody had drunk dialed me, or a man makes a pass at me (oh YES Ms. Chicken, us betrayed spouses do get eyed from time to time, we just have boundaries), it is rather offensive to me as a married woman. How you can take that possibly as a compliment is beyond me.
I think you need to go back to the very beginning of MB concepts here. And before you insult another betrayed spouse, realize this. YOUR H is a betrayed spouse, so it's like insulting him too. Ever thought of that?
You know, sometimes us (former) betrayed spouses get really sick and tired of a half a(sed attempt from a wayward at recovery. Sometimes a bs will just decide they've had enough. You ever think that maybe your sweet bh who has stood by your side one day, like another day in the future when you pick up a phone call with the drunk-dialing om on the other end, he might say he's had enough?
I say you should get serious and try to save your marriage.
Why would you come here, and not expect to be scolded, before recieving the healing treatment of removing the infection from between your ears?
When you played with matches and got burned, did not your Mother scold you and say, "I told you", before she cleaned the wound and bound it?
The more you fight this, the worse it will be for you.
Don't fight it, they are right and there is still some work you must do on yourself and what you find important.
The OM is an escape, you know this, and yet you allowed it. Thems the facts SC.
Now what are you going to do about it? Thats the question. If you do it halfway, thats the amount of success you will have. Time to really make a decision and stick to it like your life depended on it, it does.
ML--no disrespect, but you are a BS. And you speak from the perspective a BS. And you should be careful about your posts and your advice. I left these boards a year ago because of your comments. They were hurtful and unhelpful. You did not help the situation, and you're not helping me now. Why are you on these boards, and please stop commenting on my posts. WPG speculated on why there were no WW posting on these boards. This is why. I specifically requested that WWs respond to my post. Unless you have walked in my shoes, you have no business casting stones.
So, what do you want, springchicken? Do you think a wayward is the person in the best position to advise you? Be empathetic with you? Do you think it's wise for two drunks to be staggering down the street together, supporting each other's drunkeness?
Do you want a big group hug or do you want advice?
ML--no disrespect, but you are a BS. And you speak from the perspective a BS. And you should be careful about your posts and your advice. I left these boards a year ago because of your comments. They were hurtful and unhelpful. You did not help the situation, and you're not helping me now. Why are you on these boards, and please stop commenting on my posts. WPG speculated on why there were no WW posting on these boards. This is why. I specifically requested that WWs respond to my post. Unless you have walked in my shoes, you have no business casting stones.
springchicken, get over your entitlement mentality and get honest with yourself. You left these boards because the heat of Truth was more than you wanted to deal with. MelodyLane's comments were direct, concise and pulled no punches. You weren't able to withstand the scrutiny in your wayward state, so you bailed to escape the heat.
We know waywards, here. We know betrayeds. We don't coddle either one, and we want to help both. If you were to spend any time here at all you would quickly realize that. Unfortunately, you obviously are gripped by your waywardness and aren't open to education.
But I hear that MelodyLane is really cool about posting to people who have told her to take a hike and then came back later, admitting that their way wasn't The Way and asking for help. So I don't think she'll put you on Ignore.
springchicken, I am a FWW. I will state this briefly:
I would be honored to have MelodyLane in my corner in any sort of fight. In my years on the board, her integrity and clearcut sense of right and wrong has yet to steer anyone astray.
You would do well to heed her advice, as well as take to heart the words of other betrayed spouses. They are doing you a tremendous favor by sharing their experiences and insight with you. If you truly want to recover your marriage, you have a valuable glimpse into what you are putting your BH through.
If empathy for the situation you have put your BH in does not sway you, think of yourself. People are judged by their actions, and right now, you are most certainly not acting honorably or with any sort of respect for yourself. Believe me, neither did I back in 2008. But you can change that. And you can change how you view yourself, how others view you, how you view your marriage: with the respect, commitment, loyalty, and protection they all deserve.
Good grief, SC, I am looking back through this thread and you tried the "walk in my shoes" line the first time around.
Here's a FWS response for you:
Originally Posted by Tawandabelle
SC, you said you wanted to hear from FWW's who have walked in your shoes AND come out the other side. So here's who you listen to: someone who has actually done the walking and isn't shuffling around on the wrong side. If I am an alcoholic who wants help, I don't need to spend my time at a bar hearing about how all the other alcoholics knows how I feel. I need people around me who are ACTUALLY RECIVERING!
People like Mrs. W are on the other side. She KNOWS how to get there. THAT is who you need to listen to. And the other people here who have recovered, BS's and FWS's, they know how to get there because they have actually done it. Please listen to them.
More FWS advice you have already been given, still applies:
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Whoa - that was quite a lecture! Slow down - realize that many of the folks posting to you have been here a LONG time & have acquired a vast amount of knowledge about adultery in that time - They are either BSs or FWSs - Each of those kind of people understand perfectly where you are right now - I hate to tell you this, but "the wayward perspective" is not one bit unique and it sure isn't helpful for anyone with a wayward perspective to post to you...A FWS is a whole different person - Many of them, myself included at times, will hit you HARDER with 2x4s than any BS here - WHY? Because we KNOW how bad you are screwing up, and it sickens us, and yes angers us at times as well...
Anyway, something you need to hear, imo - GET HUMBLE - Realize that NO ONE here "owes" you their time, but many are choosing to give it to you - FREE - Instead of "lecturing" them, why not thank them - realize you aren't entitled to their help AND that right now, you are in no position to decide who knows what here - YOU are the one in crisis - YOU are the one trying to keep your head above water - Most of the people that are posting to you have already overcome their crises - they hold the life preserver that you need - Your choices are yours, I can't make you do any of that obviously, but I can tell you that if I were you, I'd not shoot at the rescue 'copters...I found that the posts that angered me the most when I first came here, ended up being the most helpful ones - I couldn't see that at the time because I was foggy - but those posts - the hard hitting ones - the ones filled with unpleasant truths? Those are the ones that helped clear my fog...
A Pastor explained it like this.."Even if your kids mis-behave you still feed them right?"
Besides, like His word and countanence, that he is not offended by us yet pitys us and still pulls us back from the edge of the cliff. I doubt that your reaction will effect those that reach out and give us the truth.
I would think about this a little before you respond.
BTW Mel thanks for pointing out that this poster and her issues. I hope we can still help her and her BH recover gloriously, but that will be up to her and she can own a recovered marrige then instaed of a broken one, as soon as she admits she needs help and will listen.
ML--no disrespect, but you are a BS. And you speak from the perspective a BS. And you should be careful about your posts and your advice. I left these boards a year ago because of your comments. They were hurtful and unhelpful. You did not help the situation, and you're not helping me now. Why are you on these boards, and please stop commenting on my posts. WPG speculated on why there were no WW posting on these boards. This is why. I specifically requested that WWs respond to my post. Unless you have walked in my shoes, you have no business casting stones.
Is she? Is that all she is?
I can tell you that in my short time here that I have seen spurts and leaks from Mel that tells me that she is a woman who has overcome a TON of her own personal shortcomings.
I can tell you that in my short time here that I have seen spurts and leaks from Mel that tells me that she is a woman who has overcome a TON of her own personal shortcomings. ..
ITA, but SC wants someone to climb down into the pit she is in, and she can't appreciate the solid kick in the but trying to help her out of it.
What makes SC so different from any of us? Why is she different? Shes not, except in her own head. SC can imagine she is different, and deserves special attention, but she can also come down to earth and join the rest of us lowly humans who need the occasional "rectal cranium removal" operation.
Ok, bottom line, and I think mel will agree with me, is that we help her and stand for marriage on this site. Mel doesn't really need us to support her, she has the truth doing that. Like all parents, and dare I say God himself, the teachings of this place help so many people expotentially that they probably will never know how much trouble that they have avoided once they listen. Its when we see it the trouble, and know we did it, that we come down to dealing with our blindness. Many times going out and doing it our way, only to come back again for healing when we find our way doesn't work.
SC must still need a lesson in this, and its sad really she is in the place she is, although the consequences will not have any pity on her, they never do. She needs to respect the authority of this place and the people who represent it before she gets any help.
Geez what happened to people that they don't realize that those that address our mistakes directly are doing us a favor by putting us back on the road to recovery quickly? How long do they really think they have in this life to screw around?
ML--no disrespect, but you are a BS. And you speak from the perspective a BS. And you should be careful about your posts and your advice. I left these boards a year ago because of your comments. They were hurtful and unhelpful. You did not help the situation, and you're not helping me now. Why are you on these boards, and please stop commenting on my posts. WPG speculated on why there were no WW posting on these boards. This is why. I specifically requested that WWs respond to my post. Unless you have walked in my shoes, you have no business casting stones.
Here is some advice that all WS's like to hear. Divorce your H and go to the OM, I am sure he is much better than your H and I am sure he will treat you with the respect you are due.
How is that? You feel better now, I have validated you allowing the OM back into your life and your marriage. Further, I am agreeing with you, that you have made an excellent choice in men when you selected OM to replace your H.
Am I doing good so far?
Now the advice is over, and I will take this opportunity to tell you a few facts that even you cannot dispute. You are a loser. You are a liar. You are a cheater. You have no empathy. And you clearly have no idea what love is.
Good luck refuting those FACTS. Oh! I forgot one...YOU ARE A FOOL. You are blaming the messanger for your own failures.
Take the advice or don't but doing it your way has worked well so far right?
I truly mean this next statement because you truly need it.
God Bless,
JL
PS: A dumb man never learns from his mistakes. A smart man learns from his mistakes and a Wise man learns from others mistakes.
You came here for help now stay and get that, you made a mistake the first time not putting what you needed to do in place and you had contact a few times.....change the # and start again, you have learned that you can't have any contact or you are right back where you started....... We all know it is tough to do the right thing, but this is your chance to set the bar for yourself, you can't feel right about what you did, your parents didn't raise you to think this way......... Every marriage needs a hero, take that role and make yourself and your husband the happiest you have ever been........ The vets on the board here are amazing they know what works and don't doubt it that they care about you and your family, they give up a lot of their time trying to get waywards and betrayed spouses back to a loving life, a life of integrity and honesty..................even if your marriage doesnt' survive you can learn to be the person I'm sure you really want to be.............your family needs you, don't leave and throw it all away........... We all have to take the 2x4's that come with this kind of thinking, get tougher and stand up and be the best woman you can be for your family...... I think you know the facts, stop making excuses and justifications and start being honest.......learn, change and love your husband like you promised.
I've skimmed this thread and I have the following observation.
SC, if the advice you are getting here is so bad, share the facts of the situation with your husband, the advice that the gathered group has shared and why you think it's bad advice and how your plan is much better.
If your husband agrees, great, you are on your way to having the marriage both you and he dream about.
If not, then perhaps the advice you are getting here is better than you originally thought.
If you are not willing to share the truth and the advice given, you have to ask yourself why you don't love your husband enough to be 100% open and honest with him.
Being wayward is not just about the affair. In fact, that's actually only a symptom. The problem is deception. As long as you lie, even if "only" by omission, it's still deception.
Deception is the biggest killer, not the affair.
As long as you continue to deceive yourself in your current manner of thinking and continue to deceive your husband by not being 100% open and honest, you and you alone are destroying yourself and your family.
You can argue against the advice. But the facts are still what they are, deception is betrayal. Therefore, as long as you are not 100% open and honest with your husband, you are still betraying him.
Even if you are not having sex with this guy, you are still deceiving your husband and therefore still wayward.
Your wayward ways end ONLY when you are consistently 100% open and honest with your husband. You have been given advice on how to accomplish that goal. Not only do you refuse the advice, but you reject the idea.
SC, I saw your post over on my thread and as someone who has "been in your shoes" felt compelled to respond.
#1 - As a FWW, I very rarely feel qualified to give anyone advice beyond "Do as I say, not as I did."
#2 - Encouragement, I am happy to give. I also sometimes feel like shaking sense into people's heads, but that is generally frowned upon IRL and a bit difficult to do virtually.
#3 - Hon, if you don't want to "return to that dark place," then for God's sake, DON'T DO IT!!!! By exchanging emails with OM you are taking hits on the crack pipe. NC is FOR LIFE for a reason. You're telling people to stick to no contact, so you understand it is critical, but you are not following your own advice. Your words are empty and meaningless.
I see where you said you stopped posting on the boards b/c you perceived the advice given was too harsh. Yet, something within you complelled you to keep lurking and reading here. I think that "something" is the knowledge within yourself that what you are doing is dishonest and morally wrong.
Many times I got angry reading posts here, or (more often) posts make me cry. Yes, sometimes advice (read: THE TRUTH) is harsh. But here, unlike my experience IRL, here there are people who actually care about the institution of marriage. More specifically, they invest time and effort into helping the people who come here - both BS and WS - because THEY CARE. I'm often amazed at the sheer effort it must take for MelodyLane to post as much as she does. She is truly an advocate for marriage. She does not deserve your disrespect.
You have a BH who has committed to recovery with you. And like I said, I have walked in your shoes. My sweet H was committed to recovery too, at first, but I lied to him. I tried to trick him into staying married to me. On top of the A, the damage from all the lies I told was ultimately too much for my H. I may have lost him forever, but I'm not living a lie anymore.
Tell your BH the truth and QUIT YOUR JOB today. Or just throw in the towel and let your BH go and find a woman who will be honest with him. Follow this piece of advice, that you posted yourself:
Originally Posted by springchicken
For all you Former Waywards out there, listen to me. Don't look back. Ever. Just focus on going forward and never break no contact.
As a BH let me give you a pearl. Grab the longest sharpest knife in the kitchen tonight. Go to your husband and drive it deeply into his soul then twist it a few times, then repeat the action over and over again. He will be thankful you let him out of this forthcoming Pain in this fashion VS your plan.
You have a BH who has committed to recovery with you. And like I said, I have walked in your shoes. My sweet H was committed to recovery too, at first, but I lied to him. I tried to trick him into staying married to me. On top of the A, the damage from all the lies I told was ultimately too much for my H. I may have lost him forever, but I'm not living a lie anymore.
That is an excellent post, WPG. The problem she has is that her husband's committment is based on her trickery and fraud. He doesn't know she is back in contact with her OM. Just as her BH wasn't told a year ago that she was still involved with him. This poor guy is being tricked into staying with her. She has been stringing this poor man along for a very long time.
Most BS's can recover from the affair, but very few can recover from the endless lies and repeat contacts. And that is what she has done to this guy. She is so callous that she not only continues to lie to him but has continued the affair off and on all this time. That is about as cruel as it gets. This would be a knock out factor for most betrayed spouses. It would be for me. She is dangerous to her husband.
As far as her silly comments to me, I understand that since she can't address the content of my remarks, she has to resort to attack the messenger. It is a ploy to change the subject. That doesn't bother me a bit. And I appreciate the support from my fellow board members.
I will close with this simple truth: WILD HORSES COULD NOT RUN OFF A WAYWARD WHO WAS SERIOUS ABOUT RECOVERY.
WILD HORSES COULD NOT RUN OFF A WAYWARD WHO WAS SERIOUS ABOUT RECOVERY.
Childhood living is easy to do The things you wanted I bought them for you Graceless lady, you know who I am, You know I can't let you slide through my hands
Wild Horses, Couldn't drag me away, Wild, wild horses, Couldn't drag me away...
I watched you suffer a dull, aching pain Now you decided to show me the same No sweeping exits or offstage lines, Can make me feel bitter or treat you unkind
Wild Horses, Couldn't drag me away,Wild, wild horses, Couldn't drag me away...
I know I dreamed you a sin and a lie, I have my freedom but I don't have much time Faith has been broken...tears must be cried, Let's do some living after we die
Wild Horses, Couldn't drag me away, Wild, wild horses, We'll ride them someday
Wild Horses, Couldn't drag me away, Wild, wild horses, We'll ride them someday
Another FWW weighing in here. You are a tremendous threat to your husbands well-being.
How very very cruel of you to do this. Simply because you are "curious" about OM? Do you not understand how easy it will be for you to be right back in the middle of the affair?
And how very clever of you to use your NEW work email address. Because now OM knows how to find you, and has new phone numbers and email addresses that your husband can't monitor.
Why can't you do your husband the kindness of just divorcing him? So he can recover and find someone who will truly care about him and take his feelings into consideration?
I know this is off topic, but I felt like sharing it, hope you enjoy it, and wonder who will understand it. Here goes..
There was a man selling his old tractor to a fellow farmer. The buyer was arguing the price, even though it was well maintained, because it was quite old, (just like the farmer ).
The Farmer said, "See my wife over there, working in the feild with my grandchildren? Well we have been together since we were young and have been through a lot of stuff, heartache and trials, mistakes and we put each other through a lot.
I wouldn't sell her for all the money in the world. but I wouldn't give you a nickel for another one just like her"
I wonder if SC can see the love and devotion and character in that statement. I sincerly hope she will someday for herself and her poor BH.
EDIT: To some that is funny and just a joke, to me it brings a tear to my eye, allways has..
Another FWW chiming in -- Although I can't see how that really matters SC, because have you noticed that FWSs and BSs alike are all saying the same things to you? Maybe you should have said "I would like only FOGGY people to post to me" because only the foggy would say the things you seem to crave.
Do you know what's missing on your side of the fence right now?
-Honesty -Extraordinary Precautions -A humble heart -Empathy -Integrity
Instead I only see:
-Selfishness -Snideness -Dishonesty -Cruelty -Lack of humility
When will you choose to stop shooting at people who are trying to help you and clean up your side of the street?
I'm embarrassed for you that you are choosing the way you are -- When will you make it right? When will you be honest with your husband? When will you come back and apologize to the people you've lashed out at here?
That is what it will take to impress me -- and I've walked in your very ugly shoes -- and I owe so much to the people here who had not walked in my very ugly shoes yet chose to help me anyway -- they sure didn't owe me diddly squat -- I am very blessed to have had their help. And they did not sugarcoat things for me either -- I was told how bad what I did was -- I was told that I was spewing bullcrap -- I am grateful they took the time to tell me -- I am grateful that I took the time to listen and consider what they were saying -- even though it was NOT pleasant -- I needed to hear it. You need to hear what is being said to you too. I hope you will listen.
LOL. Another comment from a betrayed spouse. Shocking.
I must revisit this. SC, it is really very insulting to the FWSs around here for you to assume that we will somehow see things from your current perspective. That current perspective being a WAYWARD perspective. Do you understand that the perspective of a FWS will not differ from that of a BS when it comes to adultery? A FWS HATES adultery. If they did not, they would not be a FORMER WS.
To any BS married to ?F?WS that sees adultery in a different way than you do [in other words they are not repulsed by it] -- RUN and don't look back, because you are NOT SAFE with them. They are NOT a true FWS.
ARe you usually this cruel?
too badly here, but please understand how hurtful and selfish you are being to those who LOVE YOU. You will start FEELING BETTER after you start DOING BETTER!
that your conscience bothers you when you say:
I have read your thread, so I have been "listening"...I am a FWW in an awesome recovered marriage - my husband and I read all the books and went to the MB Weekend - All Excellent, I can't recommend them enough - DDay was 5 years ago - I have never once regretted staying in our marriage - No question it was THE RIGHT THING to do - No one ever regrets doing the right thing, btw...All that said, let me talk to you about this post of yours a bit...
Your posts are always wisdom packed - I learn from YOU...Thank you!
