My wife had a short-lived affair a couple of months ago that culminated sexually. She confessed a few weeks later, and the relationship has ended. We still are living together and are starting to implement the Policies of Radical Honesty and Joint Agreement.

We have been married for over decade with no children. Our lives have been very difficult in terms of our careers, and we were always very supportive of each others ambitions. We have similar interests, share mostly good conversation, and genuinely care about each other.

But my wife says she never romantically loved me. She married me because she thought I would be (and have been) a good, faithful husband. We have maintained a reasonably active sex life, though it was probably never what either of us had hoped for.

My wife says she feels no connection to me.

I admit that some of my habits and instincts were off putting and I am doing everything to correct that to help meet her emotional needs. Because the affair is still fairly recent she feels nothing towards me and keeps talking about wanting to leave to find true love. Yet she hasn't, because even though she recently became the chief breadwinner (at the same time the affair happened) I apparently meet a lot of the more basic emotional needs.

Is there hope for this? How can I possibly win the heart of a beautiful, intelligent, and successful woman who says she never loved me?

(On that score-we both have post-graduate degrees. I am currently finishing my doctorate, which is why the income flip happened.)

One additional bit of information: we have been to one counselor. It was helpful in processing the reasons for her affair-"we married young and my wife never lived on her own" was the conclusion for what it is worth. The counselor strongly suggested separation so she could get to know herself. My wife has promised to support me regardless of what happens through completion of my degree later this year.

Celtic, she is saying what most cheaters say during and after an affair. They feel they were "never in love" although you have evidence to the contrary. This is because of the contrast effect. An affair is an addiction that is based on a fantasy, much like a crack high. She is comparing you to this.

You most certainly can fall in love again if you use this program in its entirety. For example, if you spend 20+ hours per week of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate needs, you can fall in love again quickly.

This is all contingent on whether or not she has ended ALL contact with her adultery partner. Does she ever see or speak to him again?

Is the other man married, and if so, does his wife know of the affair?

First, I am trusting that she will tell me if she has contact with him. I do not snoop, although my wife also leaves her email and cell phone available and has not changed her passwords.

We live in the same, very large city as TOM. The last contact that she informed me of was over a month ago when he called to tell her he was recommitting to his marriage and going to counseling. It was apparently a very short conversation that resulted in her grieving openly for the affair a few days later.

Fire the counselor, and possibly hire a hitman to remove this kind of drivel from the Earth.

The conclusion is only this; She acted selfishly knowing full well what she was doing.

She is now justifying her behavior by claiming she never loved you.

You BOTH carried on in the marriage based on fairy-tale beliefs like "true love." It was lack of knowledge that lead you to where you are now, and so many are guilty of this because we had no way of knowing, and no need to seek it out until considerable damage has been done.

You need to start reading through the Basic Concepts, and the Q&A for How to Survive Infidelity.

Your counselor doesn't have the slightest idea how to save marriages and is giving you bad advice. A separation only increases the risk of divorce and fuels the affair. Your counselor doesn't know how to save your marriage which is why he gave you such bad advice.

Let's just apply some simple logic to the separation advice. Lets say your car is broken down in your garage. Do you drive to Clevevand, Ohio to fix it or do you go in the garage and fix it under the direction of a master mechanic? Which is more likely to result in a car repair?

It is the same with a broken marriage. One has to BE THERE to fix it. Leaving does not fix it, leaving makes the problem worse.

The reasons above have absolutely nothing to do with why your wife had an affair. Marrying young and never living on her own has absolutely butkus to do with it. She had an affair because she has poor marital boundaries.

This is horse-pucky. She had an affair because she was bored and had no boundaries or respect for your M. Did you ask the counselor how having an affair would address the fact that your wife never lived on her own? At what point during the affair was she living on her own? How would having an affair 'fix' the fact that she 'married too young'?? There are NO justifications for betraying your spouse and marital vows! If your WW thought she married too young, why didn't she leave you? Do you see where having an affair is NOT a valid response to that??

Ask the counselor how many marriages she has saved. Ask her how many times she's moved out of her marital home so she and her husband could "work out issues." What a crock. People don't leave each other to work out childhood issues, blah blah blah! Where do these idiot counselors come up with that concept???

Heh. I did fire the counselor. Nicely.

She did hide a number of things from me over the years, then again, it was not until just before the affair that I sensed anything was wrong.

I have read the basic concepts and practically memorized How to Survive Infidelity. I have also ordered the books and am getting myself to a clinical psych and my priest on a regular basis.

How will telling you about renewed contact help anything? Secondly, if she is conducting her affair, you are the last person she would tell.


If you want to save your marriage, you should be snooping like a bloodhound.


I would strongly suggest that you move home and then expose the affair to the OM's wife and everyone else. This is the most likely thing to save your marriage.

If your wife is still in touch with her lover, she would tell you she wasn't so you wouldn't interfere with her affair.

You need to move back home, Sir, if you want to save this. Moving out simply enabled her affair.

Is the "contrast effect" as simple as I think it is, and is this in one of the books. I have ordered them..

I didn't move out. We have slept in the same bed every night since the affair.

It is as simple as you think it is. Her affair was based on a fantasy and she is comparing you to that. The solution is to create a romantic relationship to replace the vacuum left by the fantasy.

this is a must read: Men, Don't Leave Your Home!!

Good!!

OK, dumb question again: BS, WS? I can't figure them out.

Another dumb question: she really is over him. Or he her, I have had no doubt of that since she mourned the affair one night right in front of me and told me his wife had his Blackberry. She basically said over the weekend she knew it wasn't real.

She is not over the fantasy. I want her to feel romantically in love with me, don't get me wrong. But this fantasy is now her goal in marriage. We have an amazing relationship in so many ways, but it is what she calls "old people love." How can she get over the fantasy... or is a renewed relationship going to fulfill that in some way?

Celtic

1) She needs to COMPLETE withdrawal. To do so, she has to have NC whatsoever, and this will include; destroying any pictures, messages, emails, letters, mementos of the affair. Bringing up memory of the fantasy IS CONTACT and lengthens withdrawal.

2) You need to work TOGETHER to create romantic love. You can do this on your own for a while if you Plan A - you will eventually want her on board with you. In fact, it might be better if you Plan A for an amount of time that YOU determine before sharing anything MB with her. Create that environment of romantic love, and use MB principles to guide her, without revealing them to her.

You are doing a grand magic act which creates a reality and not an illusion. Don't show her the mirrors before you show her the trick!

BS= betrayed spouse
WS= wayward spouse

It sounds to me like your M (marriage) got worn in and 'comfortable', sort of like an old shoe. You don't want your M to be an old shoe. Can you blame her if she doesn't either? Again, that in no way justifies her A (affair). Both of you contributed to the condition your M is in today, and both of you can fix it. It's going to involve restoring romantic love to your M. Yes! You can do it! Get started reading on this site - read the articles on how affairs begin, how to end them, and how to restore romantic love to your M.

Regarding the what she was doing on her own:

She was out of town on business for four weeks, having just become the chief breadwinner. I visited her for a few days but was finishing a summer course and had to go back. I met TOM and his wife while they were out there, but she likewise had to leave to go back to work a couple days before my wife returned. It was at that point things got out of hand.

I feel terrible for the poor woman. I suspect this was not his first affair, as she seemed very angry when I met her.

What is YOUR opinion of what your M was like, particularly during those first "honeymoon" years? Was there romance involved? Was it fulfulling?

Never trust a WS's version of a M's history.

I also wouldn't encourage conversation that leads to her stating stuff like she never romantically loved you.

Thanks, Marital Bliss. I have noticed that when our relationship starts feeling "normal" she can grow more distant, and it seems we do better coming out of states of conflict. I just can't live like that forever! I am trying so hard to find a new, exciting shoe, but I just can't seem to make it last longer than a few days.

ManinMotion:

Yeah, I avoid the "I never loved you" as much as humanly possible.

We came from fairly conservative backgrounds and our first married years were fun but awkward! Don't want to get into TMI!

But yes, we enjoyed doing so many things together and I thought we had a connection(!), and when she came back from the affair she wanted to do them all immediately. We watched our favorite movies, went to our favorite museums and restaurants, etc., in the 19 days between the affair's culmination and her confession. She says she thought I would leave if she told me and says she never intended to, but her guilt got the best of her, either consciously or subconsciously.

Celtic, the key to falling in love again is to spend 20+ hour per week of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate needs: affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. This has to be spread over a 7 day week so that means you should be spending every night together. Traveling apart leads to detachment and will impede your goal.

It doesn't matter if your marriage was not very passionate or romantic before, it CAN be if you implement this program.

Celtic, I would also strongly suggest that you contact the OM's wife and touch base with her. Make sure she knows all about the affair and is watching from her end. This will be great insurance against the affair.

1) She needs to COMPLETE withdrawal. To do so, she has to have NC whatsoever, and this will include; destroying any pictures, messages, emails, letters, mementos of the affair. Bringing up memory of the fantasy IS CONTACT and lengthens withdrawal.

HeadHeldHigh:

Thank you for this advice. There is still one picture, on her Facebook page of all things! I agreed to let her keep it when she destroyed the others. Very few people know the truth of what happened, including none of her family and only my sister.

I actually am not sure how to find her, but OK! Will keep that in mind. Randall

OK... hard question.

Intimacy has happened since diclosure. It ain't easy. She does not feel like it most of the time. Obviously this needs to be a mutual thing... Does the sexual intimacy come last if necessary?

Well then, either the picture, or FB needs to go. He isn't friended on her FB, is he? That needs to go!

Do you have full access to her FB, email, and phone? Do you know how to check your phone records via the computer? Get on top of it! Contact resets the clock! Kill it!

Be patient with it. Once withdrawal is done intimacy should restore. I suppose some spotty intimacy is better than "show and pony" intimacy to cover up her continuing transgression.

You may also run into some "hysterical bonding." I'm not all hip on the regular description here, but in my case it was like the whole "new relationship" situation in the SF department.


Patience, padawan.

I would get rid of any reminders of her OM. That will prevent her withdrawal and it is extremely disrespectful to you.

He's not on Facebook.

So...

I guess those of you who have read this don't buy the "I never loved you" thing. I suspected that may be the case... since I have had trouble buying it myself! The problem is she is committed to the idea. Completely. It makes her pretty angry if I tell her I just don't believe it.

Here's a bright idea; don't believe it, and don't tell her that you don't!

Ding, ding, ding!

It's "fog talk." She is only focusing on negative aspects of your M to justify her A. The idea that she was never in love with you is her way of saying that sleeping with another man was kosher. It wasn't. She knows it, but will continue with this, and many other justifications, to stop from facing the fact that she did something selfish and cruel to someone who loves her.

Ack. Shouldn't post before I'm done.

Don't wait for explanations or apologies. They may never happen. They aren't really needed. If you follow MB, you may eventually get them, but don't dwell on it. Don't let an apology or an explanation be your motivating factor for recovering your M. Love, protection, and care are the motivating factors for recovering your M.

Capice?

HeadHeld:

Thanks again. I have not dwelled on the apology, although some mediocre ones have come. As for the fog talk, I wish I had thought of that myself. About 8 weeks ago!

What you have here is an immature woman. She has ideas about love that revolve around the fantasy love and euphoria that exists in the beginning of relationships.

Lots of people get caught up in it.

I�m going to be the contrarian here. I see no reason for a BS to stay in a marriage after they�ve been cheated on when there are no kids in the picture. I�m in the minority, but I�m disclosing that viewpoint up front.

My question to you is this: Why are you going to settle for being with someone who has to be convinced to love you?

You asked earlier how you could make a beautiful and intelligent woman fall in love with you? Easy. Show some self respect. Show this cheater the door, wish her a good life and never speak to her again.

Then, find out how and why you met such an immature woman with such poor boundaries, avoid anyone who is like that, and find women who have realistic views on love and life and who wish to settle down and have children.

Her view that your love is �old people love� shows that she has unrealistic and idealistic views about love and marriage. You will never please a woman like this or meet her expectations.

I know you wish to save your marriage. Give it every try. The things I say are things you have to conclude on your own in the end, but I offer you the idea for you to chew on.

You do not need to settle for a cheater. You have no kids. Kick her to the curb, find a good woman, and forget about this one.

And as a BS, you'll have fog thoughts.

So, let's get this out of the way; nothing about being in this situation is right, fair, justifiable, excusable, or OK.

It cannot be undone, you can just try to make things better than they are now, and/or were before. Everyone thinks things were OK before, sometimes even the WS after they come out of the fog.

The ONLY reason to view the past, and view past mistakes from here out, for either of you, is to PREVENT THEM FROM REPEATING. They cannot be fixed, they are not argument fodder for today or tomorrow.

However, you WILL think about the past, as it is a natural part of the grieving process, and you WILL grieve. You HAVE lost something emotionally tangible.

But, like any other loss, you are going to have to find a way to move forward.

Unrealistic? Yes.

Idealistic? No.

Man, I HOPE I have me some "old people love." This generation of octogenarians and above are an amazing people when it comes to love and commitment.

When I watch a little old lady sitting by her husband, holding his hand all day, even though he sleeps through 90% of the day, and no longer remembers her; THAT is love. THAT is commitment. THAT is what a true, ideal love brings about at the end of your life.

Please! Give me some "old people love!"

Did you see this post, Celtic?

Just to make sure there is no confusion, Marriage Builders is not about "old people love", but about passionate, romantic love. It is not about peaceful co-existence or settling. Done properly it will achieve passion and romance. The difference between this and affair love is that it is not based on a fantasy and it is SUSTAINABLE. Since affairs are tenuous, short term relationships, that feeling can't last.

Celtic, all you have to do is get your wife's agreement to try this program. She doesn't have to "believe it," she just has to try it. If you can afford phone coaching, I would sign up with Steve Harley with Marriage Builders. He can sell her on the prospect of having a passionate, romantic marriage with you.

The difference between Marriage Builders coaching and traditional counseling is that MB really does work. Check out this article: What is Marriage Coaching?

This does not describe what Marriage Builders means, though. It is about heart thumping, infatuated, rip your clothes off kind of love. MB is not talking about peaceful co-existence, but passion.

MelodyLane and HeadHeld,

I did see the post. I am not sure it is possible to get rid of -all- the reminders...there is a limit to how much memory can be erased when 4 weeks are involved, but I get your point. At least whatever objects are left. This will be emotionally taxing on her. Should I wait until there are a few love units in the bank?

I came across MB early on but viewed it simply as another resource. I decided to come back after it became clear that even the best couples counselors in our area felt that they could not deal with the "I never loved you" issue. My wife does not want to settle for a boring life and relationship. I don't want her to have to. MB is the one thing that I have found that seems to address what really bothers her emotionally.

Off to class. Thanks so much!

i would wait about 60 seconds to demand she get rid of all reminders of the OM. It is bad for her withdrawal and extremely disrespectful to you. So maybe 45 seconds. Keeping such a reminder makes it more emotionally taxing on her.


Traditional marriage counseling has an 84% failure rate and doesn't have the slightest idea how to save marriages. I'm glad you came back because you really can get help here. "I never loved you" is a CLASSIC affair comment. And even if it is true, this program is the remedy.

It depends in my opinion. No question the reminders have to go but it's better if she does this voluntarily that you demanding it and forcing her to do it. She will see for herself that she needs to get rid of them as her fog clears a little and you can explain that her keeping them is disrespectful to you. If she doesn't respond to this approach I would say your marriage s in serious trouble anyway.

So, are we going to DJ demented octogenarians? I am not referring to peaceful coexistence, either.

I am saying that this notion of "old people love" as a "bad" thing is... stunted. I know, I know... nobody wants to think of two 80-year-olds in bed, but this same passionate, romantic love is what leads to the the little old lady holding her husband's hand, just to be near him. This is the opposite of the little old lady that abandons her husband in the nursing home and visits once every other week or so.

I see this "old people love" every day. The love, care, and YES, passion that these life-long partners have had and maintained. Their minds and bodies broken, their spouse is the greatest thing in their life.

I've watched a wife cry for the pain she puts her husband through as her health steadily declines, and her husband simply clutch her hand and tell her he loves her - and work himself to breaking to take care of her.

Old people love is bad?

No.

This is a point I will not take any argument on. Give me the old people love that I get to see, working with them in their home. It has a terrible beauty, it is immense, and it is awe inspiring.

Yes, it is nice. But it has nothing to do with what we are discussing HERE. What we refer to here is romantic, passionate love. It is real important to make this distinction when you are talking to someone who has fallen out of love. The GOAL is romance and passion, not a peaceful co-existence.

She is addicted to OM and will trigger when she sees reminders. You're not being mean to remove these. You have the right to remove them. You are helping her through withdrawal.

If your WW was addicted to alcohol, would you leave a bottle of Jack Daniels on the nightstand? I'm thinking no. I suspect you would be sensitive to her addiction and remove reminders from your home.

Agree. This is a boundary issue. Keeping a picture of the OM is very disrespectful and I put it in the same category as renewed contact.

I'm also all for old people love.

It reminds me of something my ex said to me, though. She said I acted older than my age. I am 7 years older than her.

So this statement tells me a lot about Celtic's WW.

Celtic, your WW is infatuated with the idea of Hollywood fantasy love.

What is her age? What is her background?

Why do you want her back and don't feel you can do better?

Those are all questions you must answer regardless of whether or not you will stay or go in your marriage. They are really things that you need to wrestle with and answer for yourself. What are your thoughts on those questions?

Helpthelostdads:

Contrarian thinking is actually appropriate in some cases and your raised some issues.

First: immaturity. This is the most difficult thing for me to swallow because in so many ways she has been beyond her years for a long time. Her self motivation, responsibility with finances (don't worry, I see her paycheck and all the books), ability to form meaningful intergenerational friendships, willingness for give and take in our marriage, etc., are not entirely gone and were really high for a long time.

But there were some things there that were a problem. She by her own admission has difficulty expressing her most intimate thoughts and desires to anyone, and so I was in the dark. The affair took place in a fantasy atmosphere that allowed her to work those things out. Had I known how unfulfilled she felt on a deep level I would have tried harder, at least. Then again, I should have seen the warning signs and didn't. Its no excuse, but I have to accept that I didn't do my job.

So yes, she is immature, emotionally, in some ways. It frightens me more than anything in trying to resolve our issues.

Having said that, I love her (moreso than most of my friends can believe or understand), we have over a decade and a life together, and neither of us wants to start over.

Someone mentioned "Hollywood" romance. I've talked to her about this. I know she understands, at least cognitively, that "Hollywood" isn't real, that her affair wasn't real even if it made her feel good, and that he didn't love her. She wept over the fact that he never told her he loved her, which of course is indicative of some of the immaturity, although on the other hand she says she knew he never would.

So she is struggling-wanting a deep and meaningful romance and maybe not being able to differentiate that from Hollywood. The fact that she does understand that there is a difference, though, is a start.

We are in our early to mid 30's, both from conservative backgrounds having become more moderate to liberal as we got older. (Really, she could not have become -more- conservative, short of becoming a Shaker!) We went to church regularly before this, and I still do. She has but is miserable when she is there, so it is not that frequent. Both of her parents are ministers, so the remorse and confusion must be searing. Her best friend left her husband for another man last year, and she was incredibly critical of that decision and nearly broke off the relationship. Yes, affairs ARE contagious.

We are both, admittedly, afraid of never being loved the way we want to be. At least we have that in common! Maybe I could start over, but I am a one woman kind of guy and at least know what this relationship needs to succeed.

And, I genuinely, though not blindly anymore, love her.

Cel,

I have no doubt that you love her and that it is very real to you. You really need to take a very hard look at whether or not she has a hole in her psyche that anyone could ever realistically fill. I had an ex fianc� who was very attractive. She was pretty hot. I overlooked a great deal because of that. She has either borderline personality disorder or is bipolar. Either way, there was nothing I could do as a husband for her that would make her happy. I really felt that if I married her that she might actually stray. I knew it in the back of my mind. She functioned more on instinct than on morals and accountability.

I didn�t marry her and she�s now on her fourth husband. That�s four husbands and she�s in her early thirties. She�s cheated on her latest husband.

My point is that some people have deep scars in their personalities which no one can ever fill or fix. I get the impression, based on the little information you�ve given, that your WW falls into the category of someone that can never be happy with what she has and will forever be looking for what is out there and for more.

I really believe MB works on people who are normally healthy, have poor boundaries, and then find themselves drawn into the fantasy of affairs. It�s something we�re all vulnerable to. But there are others that no amount of Plan A, Plan B, etc, will help. They�re simply people who are broken on the inside and generally unhappy with life and always in search of that next best thing.

BTW, this ex of mine, after she left me, sought me out later on. Her subsequent two husbands weren�t making her happy. I fell for it the first time. I went back after she left husband number 3. I had matured enough to see her for the disaster she was and it didn�t go very far. She sought me out with husband number 4. At that point I had discovered MB and was adamant that she and I couldn�t meet and that she should fix her problems with her H.

My ex W is also someone who requires constant, never ending attention from whomever she�s with. I wasn�t able to give her that. She sought it out from strangers on the internet. We�re divorced now.

I love my kids more than anything, but if I had the ability to go back in time and walk away from her like my instincts told me to 11 years ago, I would. I was right then. The decision cost me in the sense that I have to forever deal with her in my life.

I very strongly recommend you take a good hard look at the type of person your WW is. Have her expectations always been there and been unrealistic? Will she ever be happy with what she has or will she forever be searching for what could be?

You have no kids with her. You�re afraid to walk away mainly because you don�t know any better. The advice I offer to you is to simply chew on the fact that there are tons of very good, morally strong women out there. Those conservative values matter in the sense that there is really no moral relativism when it comes to adultery and marriage. It is a sacrament between you her and God that no man is allowed to break. Yet, the only justified reason for D in the Bible is adultery.

I married someone who didn�t value that (the first time). I made sure I looked for a woman the second time around who did value that. Doesn�t mean she and I are in any way perfect. We�re both human and are both susceptible to the temptation of adultery. It�s the knowledge that we are susceptible that makes us strong since we can keep our guard up to forever defend ourselves from that temptation.

If you walk away now from her, you have nothing to tie you to her. There are no kids to put through a custody fight. If your WW is one of those people who have that void in their psyche, then having kids with her will mean that you will one day face that battle since she�s likely to stray again.

I just offer you those things to chew on. If you want to save your marriage, then there is nothing better than MB. If, however, your wife is a broken soul, no amount of MB will help.

Thanks Helpthelost.

Just so you know, I have actually looked at a lot of the clinical issues you describe. I asked our first therapist about them, but they did not think there was anything that qualified as illness. That person was a social worker though, not a clinical psych. At this point, I still think it is more her fog talking than anything else.

I am prepared to accept that this may not be the case though. I have talked to her about the happiness issue, and she knows it is a problem. It is one of the reasons I really want her to see a psych.

Until this, my wife maintained a fairly conservative view of marriage. We're more FDR liberals! Now that this has happened she is all over the map, but again, I assume the fog is talking.

The only difference from my perspective is that her feelings for the OM were not sustainable because of the obvious problems in the relationship. She has a much greater chance of creating and maintaining a deep and meaningful romance with her HUSBAND, because that relationship is sustainable.

So, yes, Hollywood romance and passion is much more possible in your marriage than it was in her affair. That is what I am trying to tell you.

If I were her, I would understandably not want to settle for less. Celtic, what I am trying to tell you is that what she wants is very possible. I think some folks on this thread have never experienced this and probably don't believe it themselves. But those of us who have gone through this program do believe it, because we know it is true.

I don't have the slightest idea what "old peoples love" means. Does that mean old people have LESS of a romance than younger people? Why would that be? It sure does not have to be. And why would anyone want to settle for that? Just because they are OLD? Dr Harley and Mrs Harley are grandparents and senior citizens and they talk often of their passionate, romantic marriage on the radio show. It is very achievable. I have never heard them talk about this "old people's love."

Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marriage Therapy?

Jennifer H. Chalmers, Ph.D.


I recently attended a training conference for psychotherapists that showcased several experts in the field of marital therapy. The purpose of the conference was to educate therapists.

Yet when it came to determining the goal of marital therapy, NO ONE suggested that restoring the feeling of love should be the goal. In fact a prominent scholar and expert on "sex, love, and relationships" boldly said, "Anyone who says that romantic love can last is giving you B*** S***." He probably lost the feeling of love in his own marriage and didn't know how to restore it. But then he had the audacity to claim that no one knew how to do it.

This "expert" was not alone with his viewpoint. The topic of creating and sustaining the feeling of love was never discussed in any of the marriage-related workshops that I attended. They talked about conflict resolution, improving communication and listening skills, understanding each other's themes and beliefs, understanding our choices in how we behave, and changing our irrational beliefs about the other. But these issues were not intended to help couples create the feeling of love. According to these scholars, that goal was impossible to achieve.

Several times I felt like shouting out to the thousands of fellow therapists, "The feeling of love is not only something that can be created, but it's essential to every marriage. I help couples restore their love for each other every week. And so do countless others who use Dr. Harley's 'Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation' when counseling."
continued here

HHH,

"Don't wait for explanations or apologies. They may never happen. They aren't really needed."

Totally disagree! In any relationship with God or another person, the person who harms/hurts another needs to 'own' his/her deed, feel remorse, apologize, and be determined to amend their behavior and values. Period! What you are suggesting is common today - i.e., no accountability. There is not such thing as a 'fog' too thick to prevent the offender from doing this IF he/she values the relationship, or even values other people in general. MB is a tool, a valuable tool, but it does not override the basic life principle of accountability to the one you offended.

I do not know what your background is in your marital relationship. You may have turned her totally off, and that in itself would be sad. Not saying that you did, but even that kind of bad relationship would not justify a wife from hurting her husband with betrayal.

HHH, from what you are saying, I then have permission to withdraw $10,000 from our joint account, go to Vegas for a week and waste it, return home and not expect to offer remorse of even a simple apology. Hey well get real please. For most normal people who DO have long-term marriages, the ones you don't even hear about, that behavior would get me in the house long enough to pack a few things!

Ack, your future peace of mind and confidence IS predicated on your W showing remorse and full dedication to you and your marriage. Most people would not settle for less.

Good luck,

Tom

How come this romantic love is so intense in the A. It is not possible that A partners follow MB!!!
How come some A last so long when you would think the very base on which they are built would destroy them in no time?
It is really a mistery how fast two people can fall in love and yet deep down know that what they are doing hurt so many people. How can you have passion and all that when you left your wife with kids and frolic with someone who is obviously a loser?
blessing

Oh, you got me over the pot on that one. However, I am following MB advice with that post.

I would have been out the door if my FWW would not have been remorseful.

However, I believe there is a reason that there is not an emphasis on remorse and/or apology. Because it is not necessary to begin the recovery process. Remorse and apology have their emphasis removed to aid the BS refrain from demanding remorse or apology, which would be a LB.

It took 5 months and the full truth before I saw remorse. Had I been demanding remorse that entire time, had I been saying I wouldn't move forward without a sincere apology from moment one, we would be done.

And again, I am simply restating the principals stated by this board. For instance; I was REALLY hung up on forgiveness. I wanted to do it, but couldn't feel it, and really didn't know exactly what that meant. Knowing that she has to earn it, rather than me giving it, took that weight off of my shoulders so that I could work on avoiding LBs and meeting her ENs.

I was hung up on trust; relearning that I shouldn't have trusted her to not stray to begin with, because we are all capable of having an A, took that weight off of my shoulders.

So, while MB may not be the catch-all for all beliefs and creeds, it works rather well - and of course has the record to prove that it does.

Apples to oranges - it's all fruit.

Question regarding Policy of Joint Agreement:

Right now, there is virtually no activity outside of cooking my wife enthusiastically will agree to. She has told me she prefers to spend time with a couple of girl friends, one of whom had a 3 month emotional affair last year. They have lives of their own though! Bottom line-what do you do when the WW is not enthusiastic about anything.

I am taking on two big projects today that mean a lot to her... hoping the tide begins to turn soon.

I would suggest counseling with Steve Harley. Let him sell her on the prospect of falling in love with you. Your biggest hurdle will be to motivate her to TRY. Of course she won't be enthusiastic about spending any time with you initially. Steve Harley can sometimes be very effective in this regard. If you are interested in doing this, click on the counseling center button above and make an appt with Steve.

Oh yes they do follow Marriage Builders principles. Affairs begin when people start meeting each others most important emotional needs.


Affairs don't last long as a rule. 95% of them die within 2 years. Most are not sustainable.

And furthermore, due to the "ideal" bubble of fantasy the affair exists in - no bills, kids, no real life issues other than meeting each others needs - they rarely unleash LBs on each other.


...once the conditions of real life sink in.

The same dysfunction that lead to vulnerability to an affair continues to exist in the WS.

OK. Two more questions:

MelodyLane (and anyone else):

I have not exposed the affair, largely. The vast majority of our mutual friends, my family, and all of her family have no knowledge. We have hosted guests at our home as if nothing was amiss.

I am very reluctant to do so. The affair is, so far as I am able to determine, over and there has been no communication for over a month. This question leads to ...

Those of you who have adopted the MB system and introduced it to a WS. How did you introduce it? We have talked about some of the basic principles but not bought the farm, so to speak, yet. I know she will object to some of the ideas as unrealistic. NC is a huge problem-they don't work in the same place but are in the same field; either one of us could run into TOM, his wife, or both unannounced.

Exposure is key. You will go nowhere without it.

Look for a thread by Humbled. He was afraid to expose and didn't listen for a long time and then he finally got it.

You should, at a bare minimum, expose to OM's wife.

Exposure's goal is to kill the affair. Lack of contact for one month is not no contact.

The problem is that a WW in a marriage with no kids really has no incentive to stay. She can bail and leave you without having any incentive to return.

But you should expose no matter what. How would her family handle it? If your family is conservative, then I believe they will be supportive of you saving your marriage. They are also more likely to stick by you after exposure and won't be very forgiving of her.

You don't believe me, which is normal. Most BS's are afraid of exposure.

But it is a critical step if you wish to save your marriage.

Help. Emergency.

On Sat WW, of her own free will, proposed a couple of date ideas for yesterday. She didn't call them that, but that is what it was.

I asked her which one she was most enthusiastic about. She said neither, but we agreed on something.

Without going into details, she sabotaged it an hour in advance. I had picked up "His Needs, Her Needs" the previous day. She read a chapter or two and went to the next room to cry. She said the book was BS and there was no hope. I did as well as I could on the date but she would barely talk to me. She says she doesn't want to try because she doesn't want me. I sold MB as much as I could but to no avail. She eventually got angry and threw some treasured possessions ( not at me) and started to walk out, before thinking again.

I had to go out of town this morning but will be back tomorrow. She has a long day at work. What to do?

Hi there Celtic,
Okay so she isn't willing yet, she is still attached emotionally to the OM, I agree with the exposure of the affair as well......
I think there has to be some kind of accountability and if everyone else is watching it won't be any fun for her to continue the affair......
She will be mad but you will not survive with her head still with the OM.....
Exposure is just a shot of the reality of the situation and the fantasy part is pushed out the door......if the OM is married, his wife has the right to know........
You be the one that is there for her and tell her you love her and you are only trying to save your marriage.......
She will be going through a withdrawal stage and seem depressed with her life....it's only fog thinking......after a while she will see that the relationship with OM isn't real, it's just what it is........
Be a great guy, be calm and understanding even though you are hurt.....don't expect anything at all from her........
Do little things for her that she will notice, even small things......little jestures, little touches are the way to start having her notice that you are the better option......
good luck, you are getting lots of great advice, listen and learn

I am being great. It almost contributes because I cannot get addled and make her breakfast every morning and rub her feet at night. She says I am desperate but that is all about me that has changed. Not true, of course.

I wish I could contact OMW. I do not have anything but a name.

Honestly sure its over, but she wants someone just like the OM. She told me. Almost worse than the fantasy of the A, a fantasy that is not real at all. She also says she thinks marriage is a trap and doesn't believe in it.

Ignore it, it's wayward fogbabble. They all say something to this effect.

Many posters can advise you on how to find information on the OMW's with just her name. They'll probably be on later in the day.

Celtic,

Have you addressed the issue of exposure? Everyone here is telling you to do so but you ignore the advice. Expose the affair. Find OMW and expose to her. Tell your family.

Exposure is key to killing the affair.

I am making preparations to expose. There is no middle ground. I am worried about the emotional toll on my parents (who believe me to be totally happy for the first time in years) and my wife's octogenarian grandmothers, who live with her parents. Once one family finds out the other surely will.

I am at present completely financially dependent on my WW. I have to get my ducks in a row.

Randall

A lot of people say I am groveling and that is making me less attractive.

I HAVE CONTACT INFO for the the OMW. email, phone, or office visit? Which is best?

I recommend a telephone call. An email can be ignored. An office visit might be a bit too shocking and come off as an ambush. Give her a call and shoot her an email. Call her first, though.

Being dependent on your WW is a big deal but it isn�t. If she throws you out then you can file for alimony. She can�t simply walk away.

Celtic, I�ve said this before and I�ll say it again:

You�re young. There�s tons of wonderful women in the world. There is no need to settle for a cheater when you have no kids. Can you imagine having children with this woman and then having her pull this when you have little ones in diapers?

If she�s flaky now, when things in a marriage are easy, what makes you think she�ll hold up when you throw in a child that requires care, attention, diaper changes, and sucks up your time?

I welcome the responsibility and joy children bring. You strike me as someone who would as well. How would she handle it?

In support of exposure: I didn't know about the MB principles when I discovered my wife's A 9 years ago. I didn't expose, we went through worthless counseling, and I thought things were ok. In any event I thought I could at least make it until my kids were adults. Well, the OM found my wife on facebook earlier this year and they had an online/texting thing going during April before his wife discovered it. This time I made sure, after lots of effort, phone calls, etc that the exposure was done. I wish I had known/had done this 9 years ago as I probably wouldn't be hurting like I am now.

I do have to agree with helpthelostdads, if I didn't have 2 kids I would be out of here going through a personal recovery and getting myself ready to find someone better. The decision is yours to make but I can't imagine staying with my wife if we didn't have innocent children permanently joining us together.

OMW contacted. No known communication between OM and WW.

OK, now going to the second step. I call it the Intervention because the WW is now fantasizing as much about a fictional human being as she is the A, or at least I think that is what is going on. WW parents are next on the list. (My family is more problematic. My sister is very supportive but advised me not to inform my parents, as they will want to get lawyers involved immediately.)

My goal is to get her into some kind of psych or pastoral (preferably both) therapy, as well as talking to some more grounded people. Since the A is by all accts broken, I guess cleaning up the last remnants of the A and getting rid of them should also be a goal.

With the familial pressure and A broken, I guess the fog will start to lift? Unfortunately, WW is committed to the idea she cannot "self-actualize" with me around. There's some therapy I wish we didn't have... Any ideas on that one?

The Bible tells a man to love his wife...

Read the list at MB here that identifies your and your wife emotional needs!

This last part is to be used by you for the rest of your life, whether you get back with her or not.

What was her response? What was the conversation?

Don�t expect the fog to lift anytime soon.

I think it�s your call on exposing to your parents. It�s a matter of support for you. I wish I had done so much sooner than I did. I could have used the support and level headed advice. Her parents and family is a given. OMW is huge.

How did that go? Did you talk to her personally?

It�s been years and my WXW has yet to have it lift. She may never have it lift.

The idea that she has to self actualize without you is common. Nothing new or special there. The point is to not give in.

Expect her to explode once she finds out about exposure. She�ll tell you that you ruined any chance you had to fix things.

Greet that response with indifference. Look at her as if she just told you the mail was delivered and ask her how her day was.

Don�t engage the irrational rationalizations.

celtic,
exposure to everyone that is involved in your life is who you tell.....I found it almost a relief to tell everyone else, I no longer had to pretend my life was peachy keen....
I was hurting and it seem to eliviate some of the pain.......

Maritalbliss:

"I know. We're in therapy. I am keeping track of his Blackberry and he hasn't talked to her."

I didn't expect it to be warm and effusive. ;-)

Helpthelost:

The break point came Sunday night when she said she did not want to fix it because she didn't want me, but some hypothetical creation of her mind. The point of silence to now was that if we fixed it without pain to the families, that was better.

So I am not worried too much about whatever she says now.

Did you give her your contact info and let her know that you are on the side of keeping your M together as well? And that the two of you can be allies in assuring NC?

Keeping track of his Blackberry doesn't mean squat. It means he'll have to go buy a pay-as-you-go phone. I hope she knows that.

WW parents know everything. One coming for surprise visit soon. WW does not know. What can I expect?

What do you mean by "soon"? Today?

As far as what to expect, you can expect some fireworks from WW if she's not aware that you told your in-laws. And that's fine. You stay calm and let her know that you will do whatever it takes to save your M.

Fireworks is an understatement. She will explode in anger. She�ll tell you it was none of their business and that you shouldn�t have dragged them into your problems. She�ll tell you that you just ruined any chance you had to save things and that it is now really over.

She�ll accuse you of betraying her trust. She�ll tell you she can�t trust you. She�ll say that you are horrible.

Your response to all of this is to say, �I will do what I need to do to save this marriage.�

If she asks how this is going to help, the answer is simple, �If there was nothing wrong with what you�ve been doing, you wouldn�t be upset. But I�m bringing this affair to light and will do what I need to save this marriage. That starts with letting everyone know you�re having an affair.�

She won�t care or understand. Some here might even disagree that you should say that. But that�s simply stating the truth.

The key for you is to not second guess. We�re telling you exactly how she�s going to react. Why? Because we�ve seen it a million times.

She will react. And the bigger the reaction the bigger the hit. Try not to laugh when you see we were right.

I DO believe that you should say what HTLDs posted.

Let exposure do its job.

Agreed. Especially try not to laugh at the irony when she says she can "no longer trust you" - that's a good one, considering the circumstances.

Thanks. I can't discuss timing online. May disappear for a while.

You could always change your screen name if you need to. Your posts are anonymous enough that they blend in to others when viewed by an untrained eye, KWIM? We would know who you are.

Exposure complete, WW contained but furious. So what do I do when/if she asks me to leave?

Offer her a cookie.

Do not leave your home or even your bed! If she feels separation is in order, then she can be the one to sleep on the couch or move out.

FROM Carrot/stick thread which is *linked* in my sig line.



*LINK* to Men, don't leave your home

The less you do, the better. Do not return anger for anger. Don't let her bait you. Return her fogbabble with serenity. Tell her that you intend to fight for your M. Ask her what she would like for dinner.

Do NOT leave that house.

Am I now in Plan A?

Here is where we are... WW parent at our home, I am out of town on business for a day. WW pleasant in public but barely speaking in private. She still says she does not want me there, that she feels trapped in the marriage and needs to save herself from a loveless future.

I am hanging in and taking it, doing everything I can (that she will let me) at home for her and parent. Worried what will happen when they leave.

So again, am I now in Plan A officially?

Good job, remember it will take time to change her thinking......it's worth at least the effort.......
Good Luck

Hello. WW has agreed to indiv therapy reluctantly to work on issues. Are there any specific therapeutic techniques you have seen that help lift the fog. A relative with some knowlege of psychotherapy reccommended I find someone with specialization in REBT or Reality therapy.

Second, WW only wants to spend time with a couple of female friends. Better than OM! But not with me... suggestions?

Why is WW doing IC? What issues is she attempting to resolve that requires individual counseling? This is your marriage - your partnership. I would suggest you work on this together, as partners.

Agree, with emphasis. IC... is only as horrendous and life destroying as the person licensed to do it.

There is only one cure for lifting the fog and that is exposure!

We are getting ready to start MC again hopefully with a Christian counselor. There are some issues including the A fog but going beyond it that need to be looked at in IC...

See prior posts. Exposure has happened.