5 years ago, I was in a desperate stage in my marriage and I stumbled upon MB and read everything I could on the site and in the forums. Then things in my life got �Busy� and I dropped it. Things are a lot different now � the marriage is in the same condition, but I seem to care less emotionally, but my mind tells me that I have to do something to try to make things better. It seems like I have done everything else, so I am back here.

I think what I am looking for right now is some motivation to try to care again. Again, my intellect tells me I have to care.

I have read forum posts all evening, and I know that I definitely have to first read Fall in Love, Stay in Love, and then Lovebusters. But I am hoping that some of the insightful folks here can give me some additional guidance.

It is a long story, but I will try to be as brief and concise as I can (just finished and I was neiter). I guess folks will ask for additional information if it is needed.

My Wife and I are both 47. We have been married nearly 13 years. We married when we were 34. My first marriage, her 2nd.

I knew there were problems soon after asking her to marry me. She stopped being affectionate and always had excuses for not wanting to be intimate.

Shortly before the wedding, I told her that I had spoken to my father regarding a real estate question (he was a real estate/corporate law attorney). She berated me for involving my folks in our (my � we were not married yet) personal business. Additionally, she called me a momma�s boy. That seemed strange to me as I lived 5 hours from my folks, had moved out at 18 to join the USMC, graduated from college, learned my trade, started a business, and had never lived in my hometown since. Didn�t see that coming. I guess at the time I assumed she was having a bad day, but flags went off enough for me to discuss the subject with a close friend. I can�t remember what he said, but apparently I ignored it.

Within three months, she had threatened to leave me and was regularly telling me how much she hated me. This crushed me and I buckled down and tried to alleviate everything that she said bothered her.

From the honeymoon, when she was frequently too tired to have sex, I felt that she was trying to condition me to less and less sex. As I mentioned above, when I asked about it, there were always excuses.

She hated my folks: I stopped talking to then at home, they never were invited to visit, and we cut visits to them down to a bare minimum. No improvement.

She hated my friends: Cut them down to the bare minimum. Never in my home.

She hated her job: I suggested she quit. She did. No improvement.

She wanted kids: We have twins, boy and girl.

She hated where we lived: I built a bodacious house largely to her specifications.

By the end of the first year, we were largely not intimate. By that time, she had threatened to divorce me several times, told me she hated me regularly, and even compared me unfavorably to her X-Husband and old boyfriends regularly. She shamed me for trying to be intimate regularly (whenever I tried to be intimate). She would tell me that I was immature, and accused me of thinking that marriage was all about sex. We never had sex as frequently as once a week.

After each of these blowups, she would generally apologize after three days and tell me that she really loved me. After a while, I would no longer get too mad (usually) when she was �venting� and I would tell her that she would be taking it all back in three days, and I would just wait for then before I would participate in any further conversations on the subject (whatever she was berating me over).

We went to marriage counseling. That was a disaster from my perspective. The counselor told me privately that I would have to learn to live like this on her terms because she was not going to change.

After 5 years, I estimate there was a �Blowup� every other month. I defined a blowup as anytime she: Threatened to divorce me, told me she hated me, threatened to financially ruin me, or compared me unfavorably to an old boyfriend or husband.

At 7 years (when I was distraught and struggling to find anything to ease my pain � reading everything I could get my hands on from MB) we had had at least a few 1.5 year non intimate spells. I was searching for some way to at least ease my mind about it. I was totally heartbroken all the time. I told here that I understood that she was doing everything she could, but that I had to do something to fix me. If I was the problem, then fixing me would fix us. I spoke to friends about it and got all of the home remedies, etc.

I decided at some point to keep a journal of her behavior in an effort to try to correlate her behavior to some external stimulus, or at least have it all written down so I could analyze it and determine what the problem was. She had even gotten to the point of telling me that I was not mentally stable. I took that to my business partner (old and trusted friend). He assured me that I was not insane.

At about the 7 year mark her younger sister and my dad both got cancer. Her sister died in January of 07 and my Dad died in March. All of my plans and MB stuff had to stop as I was taking care of kids while she was taking care of her sister, and afterward, I had to spend some time with my dad before he died.

Then things got worse. Since she hated my folks and the area I grew up in, I visited my dying father and buried him without any assistance from her. She didn�t go with me for any of it � not even the disposal of his estate, which was a lot of work. My brother brought his wife and kids from Europe for over a month to assist with it (it was a mess and we could not leave it all to my mom and sister to deal with).

At the funeral, my HS sweetheart showed up with her folks. I had known her from grade school, and they were friends of the family. Seeing as I had not spoken to her in 20 years (folks and siblings had), it did not seem like such a big deal to me. In the course of catching up we talked about our marriages and how great hers was and how crappy mine was. She gave me a 5 step program sure to fix my marriage. After all, she said, I had to be reading things all wrong. I am a great guy, great looking, and any woman would be totally thrilled to be married to me.

So I went back home and did everything I could to make her love me. More house work, lots of time together, date nights, etc. Over the course of the summer we made love (awkward love) three times. But where things had been sanitary but stable for some time (no sex prior for nearly 2 years) they now got very contentious. She again became aggressive towards me frequently. She began to accuse me of trying to �F##k her every time I tried to do something nice for her. Most of the time, I really did not have any intention of initiating any intimacy (at least not immediately). I also noticed that she was very careful not to be undressed around me. She would get up early and change her clothes before I got up, or take showers when I was not around. This may have been going on all along, but I only noticed it after she started accusing me of sexual advances when actually, they were just simple acts of kindness.

On New Years Eve 2007, our neighbors were having a party. My wife did not want to go, and my son was being punished, but my daughter (6 at the time) wanted to go because other neighborhood kids were going to be there. So I took her. At 9:00, my son calls to tell me that it was time to go home. Of course, the wife put him up to it as she is �friends� with the neighbors and it would seem pretty S#!tty if she had called to put an end to the party for us. I didn�t take it too seriously, but told him we would be leaving soon. At 9:30 he called back and after I got on the phone, the wife speaks up and berates me and insists we come home immediately. So we did � after some fighting with the daughter that did not want to leave her friends for what she thought was no reason.

When I got home, she rushed the kids to bed and insisted I stay downstairs for a talking. During the conversation, she became as irate and nasty as I had ever seen her. She talked, and I listened. I also took notes so I could update the journal (she did not like this, but didn�t hold back a wit � even as I asked for clarification of some of the more outlandish accusations and facts she felt compelled to list to me. The following were her main points:

1. She hates me and always has.
2. All other men she had ever been with were upstanding and hot guys the likes of which I could never measure up to.
3. Whenever she had told me that she loved me, she was lying to avoid conflict to try to achieve some sort of peace.
4. From the beginning, whenever she appeared to be pleased physically by me she was faking.
5. She swore never to have sex with me again. (She had done that before, but I was always persistent enough to change her mind after a year or two.)

I never figured out what prompted this, but I was terribly hurt. Since I could not sleep and didn�t have anything that needed to be done the next day, I just left and went to my office to make the journal entry and review my data that had been collected for roughly the previous three years.

I concluded that my inklings about her physical dissatisfaction with me were correct from the beginning, and she was probably being truthful about what she had said. In fact the most consistent things she had ever told me were those that were said in the duress of her �Blowups�.

I concluded the following from all of my notes:
1. She found me socially acceptable from the time we met.
2. While physically attracted to the �Wild Boys�, she at 34 years of age had learned that they were no good for marriage.
3. She longed for the �Norman Rockwell� marriage to a church going man from a stable family and background.
4. With the biological clock ticking, I was just the ticket.
5. Not being terribly worldly, I was easier to fool than a more successful man of our age that had already been married and understood women better. He would be more likely to recognize the �faking�.
6. She probably figured that with time, she might learn to love me or at least enjoy the suburban lifestyle she figured I represented.
7. The pressures of reality probably did her in. She could not hold up the ruse with me constantly in the home with her, and the pressure that I put on her � and perhaps her own guilt when I was not pressuring her. In the end, the whole thing just made her so mad that she became impossible to live with. She began to hate me personally, and takes it out on everything that has anything to do with me � my family, where I am from, my business, my friends.

That was over three years ago. I seriously considered divorcing her then. But I was too busy to work through it, and did not want to do something rash. So I did something even more rash. I wrote to that old girlfriend and told her how well her plan worked out. That started an EA that soon developed into a PA, and has continued to this day. It has been over three years now for that affair.

So now, I have very little marriage (but it is actually better than it has ever been), I am in nearly constant personal torment about being an adulterer, and I am ruining another man�s marriage. Or I have ruined it. I am more miserable about that than my own marriage. At least my marriage has not suffered from this thing � it has improved.

Some other things I have learned or proven: Since that New Years Eve thing, I have not once even hinted at intimacy with my wife. I don�t go into the bathroom when I know she is showering or dressing. If I give her a hug, I do so when we are in public or the kids are around. If I give her a massage, I make sure the kids are there to help me with it, and never in the evening. She has not had a really bad episode since then.

There was a time when she complained constantly about my work and my business. This was before the New Years Eve episode. I told her that I would talk to my partner about giving him my shares and just becoming an employee. That way I could be home regularly for meals and I would not have to travel so much. She IMMEDIATELY called me off that. Said something like �well, wait a minute, I don�t think you should do something rash like that�.� The problem was that the salary and draws that go along with ownership would go away, and she likes the money.

So this past fall after she had once again threatened to financially ruin me again for the 70th time I seriously investigated divorce and attorneys. I bear her no malice, but I generally have my ducks in a row before I do anything. In repeated conversations regarding financial issues (things are not terrible, but with the economy, they are not what they were a few years ago) I finally told her that whatever we do financially, she has to consider how she will do if I am not around. It is something that every woman has to consider � men die � or leave after 13 years of abuse. I finally told her that I had been considering divorce and had investigated it. I assured her that in our state, there was a pretty cut and dry formula that could be fought, but in the end you spend a lot of money to arrive at the formula. The formula would likely support her well for a while, but eventually the support runs out and she has to find some way to support herself when it does. And the property is not worth what it used to be � no getting rich and retiring from that. She seemed crushed. She accused me of �blindsiding� her. I assured her that it was no �blindside�. I was honestly discussing it with her so she could be prepared.

In conversations since then, I have learned the following:
1. The only thing she hates more than me is work.
2. She will never willfully divorce me � even if she found out about the affair.

So where does this leave me now? I care for my wife. I liken it to a relationship with a quarrelsome older sister. Any of you that have older sisters know what I am talking about:
1. They don�t respect you. No matter what you do, they are always smarter and know better than you do. (Contrast this with younger sisters that idolize their older brothers.)
2. You don�t have sex with them. EVER. The thought never crosses my mind any more. It is a combination of conditioning over 13 years, her physical changes, and the fact that the old girlfriend is terribly hot.
3. You do love them, and enjoy their company in small doses. Often you even have very common interests and spend your time around these. Other places are off limits you will just argue for no reason.

So why am I posting here? If there is a way to have a marriage like the ones I read of here (some of them make me so jealous I just get pissed off) I want to try to find a way to that.

I know this affair has to end as it is poison to my soul and is killing me. I know it is also killing my lover although she never admits it. I have tried to discuss this with her � even tried to get her to read the MB articles � but she is addicted to this thing and cannot see past it or the damage it is doing to both of us. My conscience torments me constantly. Even when it is not emotionally attacking me, my mind knows what I am and I hate it. There was a peace when I just had a rotten marriage. Now there is no peace.

The infidelity articles and remedies here are so spot on it is unbelievable. If I were not having an affair, I might not believe how accurate they are. I seriously consider implementing Plan A on myself, but it seems insane. How can I send an NC letter to my lover and copy her husband and family (as well as my wife and her family) on it. The shock and shame factor would be lost as well.

Somehow, I don�t think any of them would believe it. They all know me (and her) too well (or I guess not well enough). And honestly, with the exception of my MIL, kids, and her husband, they would probably applaud the mutual destruction of our marriages and find sport in the novel way in which I did it. Her family always loved me, and my FIL has a pretty good idea of what I have been dealing with � my MIL is more hateful than my wife.

The other alternative is to just get caught by leaving clues and then point my wife to MB and beg her not to implement Plan A. Anything but Plan A. The fact is that she would probably just yell at me, call me a hypocrite, threaten to REALLY cut off sex, and force me to stop seeing her. She would probably not tell anyone for her own personal shame in it (having a cheating husband). And I would eventually tell her that I had stopped, but I would be lying. Nothing would change.

I truly want to stop the affair and can probably do it. But the thing I cannot seem to bring myself to is wanting to fix my marriage. I have forgiven my wife for all of the crap (so long as I don�t dwell on the past like I did in this post). But, how do I want to try to make things better. Can I ever really enjoy being with her when I know how she feels about me? Can her feelings for me really change? How do I know if they have? Do I retire and put her on strict austerity measures (she would hate that, and if it got so bad that she would rather work, she would be gone).

I have 9 year old twins that love our family. They love everything about it. My daughter cries when I go out of town on business because she won�t get her snugs for a week. She drew a picture of our family on my white board in the office. I have to do something to fix all of this.

Any critique and suggestions are welcome. I am going to buy the books and start reading.

Hi spike, welcome to Marriage Builders.

My suggestion would be to cut that back to about 3 paragraphs so you will get more answers. That is way too much information to ask folks to dig through just to get to the point. There is no story that requires even 1/10th that information to convey the main point. Thankee kindly.

Thanks. I tried, but got carried away.

Wow, what a story.

I could comment a lot (mostly because you wrote so much) but I will try to keep it brief.

The things that jumped out at me that reminded me of my own affair was that, your marriage was a mess when it started and the affair actually improved things (at least on the outside). Mine was similar. I didn't have to face any of my issues in my marriage because I had my fantasy land to go to on a regular basis. My OM knew he was just that and I was that for him as well (although he wasn't married, he wanted the benefits without the costs).

My affair was discovered and I immediately went no contact.

The thing that amazed me the most is that my husband was willing to stay and made many changes that I never thought I'd see. He goes to church (even teaches Sunday school), pays attention to the kids, cuts back on work and activities. We both agree it is sad that this is seemingly what it took.

I caution you that things are not great....it hurts a lot more to be honest. He is frustrated now that he has to do things he would previously ignore. I notice he is grumpier after boyscout meetings or Sunday School. He drinks a lot and blames it on me. There are many problems.

HOWEVER

All of our problems now are real and honest and being addressed. I can't say we will solve them. I don't know the future. What I do know is that I am doing the right thing and working on this marriage for as long as I am in it. It is painful and exhausting but it is real....not some bubble waiting too be popped. Fantasy land is easy and fun but as you are experiencing, it seeps in to real life and has drastic consequences. You need to live with integritiy and do the right thing because it is the right thing...not because you expect things to change.

Wow, I wrote more than I thought. You are on the right track....maybe.

I can cut it down for you:

You were very unhappy in your M and had some valid concerns.

Your choice was to have an A, and now you are posting a novel in an attempt to justify it to us.

Here's how you fix it:

Own what YOU chose to do

End the A

Confess everything to your W

Never contact this OW again

Be humble

Work MB and read Surviving an Affair

See how short it is when you remove all the distracting stuff?

The way you have faced up that an affair is wrong you have to face up that you married a nut job.

Nut job?

Yes, there was a very good reason why H1 divorced her.

Time to face up and dump this nut job.

Really??? So a woman who cheats hasn't owned her choice if she gives a convoluted back story....but this man who has justified right and left just married a nut job.

Is adultery wrong or isn't it? Is there a justifiable reason to cheat or isn't there?

If my A was wrong.....then so was this.

Wow.

Well, if you care about your kids, it's worthwhile to at least try to save your marriage. We've seen people come back from worse than this. It's not that unusual for Dr. Harley to fix marriages where both spouses start out hating each other.

If you really want to give it the best shot, phone counseling is a good idea. You guys really have a lot to deal with and it's going to be a tall order working it all through yourselves.

Regarding "nut job" BW.

Observation:

It is typical, on the MB infidelity forum, for the WAYWARD spouse to paint the MOST unflattering picture possible of the BETRAYED spouse.
Every flaw is magnified in great detail.
The WAYWARD spouse is always the victim.
Their adultery decision always lays at the feet of the BS's huge character defects, NEVER their own.

Opinion:

Assume "revisionist marital history" is a HUGE possibility in every instance where the WS is trashing the BS.
Especially when the WS says the BS treated them badly from the get go of the marriage .... and the WS chose to stay for 13 years !!!!

Advice:

This advice is to the wonderful forum posters.
Be patient when forming an opinion about the BS.
Be wary of forming an opinion about the BS which is based solely on descriptions given by the "victimized" WS.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

Regarding Pepperband: wise

This is what a revisionist marital history looks like:



Martyrdom/sainthood/victimization for the benefit of the WAYWARD SPOUSE's image.

This sounds an awful like there is a TON of re-writing the marital history. This is common so don't think we are picking on you.

Right now, in your adultery-infested mind, this descritption of your M all might sound very, very true and it sounds as if you believe it all. But to have stayed in a M this bad for 13 years would make you either a martyr or a psychopath. I don't think you are either which leads me to believe there is probably some serious marital re-writing here. Otherwise why would you even WANT to save this M?

What do you do from here? You already know the A isn't going anywhere and thankfully you sound moral enough to know you don't want to trash 2 families and leave all these children with broken homes.

So...you first tell the OW AND her H that you are ending this A. You do this first so that when you go to tell your W you cannot chicken out as you know it will get back to her.

Then you sit down with your W and tell her the truth. You tell her you have already found a website and a counselor that specializes in affair recovery (this website, MB counseling) and that you have already set up your first phone appointment.

And you be there for your W when she feels like her heart has just been ripped from her chest.

Spike...you need to click Notify and request that this be moved to SAA. You will get a lot more help there.

Tip for other MB posters:

When reading a revised marital history by a WS, remove all unflattering references about the BS.

See what is left.

The hell it hasn't. Stop fooling yourself.

Our D-day of my H's 18 month EA/PA was in December 1995.
Over the course of the discovery drama and tears, I asked the preverbal "WHY?" question.

This is funny to me now.

I asked:
"Why did you have your affair?"

WH said:
"Because you said (uncomplimentary remark) about me."

I said:
"What? I don't remember making any remark like that."

WH said:
"You did say that to me. It really hurt me."

I said:
"When was this?"

WH said:
"1981"


14 years after the hurtful remark it was his reason to become an adulterer.

TR, this is absolutely irresponsible of you. Have you talked to this man's wife? Have you no understanding that this is a wayward, and as such, we need to vet this story a bit? Do you not understand that waywards are uniquely capable of rewriting marital history in order to justify their affair? And that many of them will come to this website in order to do just that?

I'm not convinced we've got the whole, unvarnished story here. I can't make that determination from ONE post. And what concerns me more is the length of that one post, filled as it is with all the things his wife has done wrong her whole married life. I need to know more. Most posters would.

You feeling a little cranky today, TR, or what? Please refrain from spilling that out on new posters.

Thanks for that Pep. I just couldn't make it through the original post, but now that you've cleared away all the fog, the story is pretty typical.

Yes, click notify and ask the mods to move this to the Surviving an Affair forum, and then get ready for lots of 2 x 4's. There is help here, but you are first going to have to remove the wayward-colored glasses through which you have been viewing your marriage for the past 3 years. It's a painful process. I know, I've been there. But it's well worth it in the end.

Ha! On d-day I was told it was because I "leave the kitchen cabinets open when I am cooking and don't close them immediately."

I was such an emotional wreck I started hysterically laughing/crying.

I had 'em both beat...Mr. W used "GRANDMA TOOTHPASTE" [Pepsodent]! What a total rat, huh? Poor me, I had it so rough!

Mrs. W

I think everyone should go easier Spike's marriage history. It doesn't sound all that ridiculous to me. I've known marriages where the wife openly belittles her husband in front of other people. I've been with a friend when he's gotten a call from his wife upset he's at happy hour and she's yelling so loudly that I could easily hear it over the noise in the bar.

I think Spike has the tendencies of a "Nice Guy". I bet he puts women on a pedestal, downplays his own needs, does what ever she wants so that she will be happy. His marriage history is exactly what a Nice Guy would do--continually try to please her no matter how mean she was to him.

That doesn't make the affair ok. It's 100% wrong. But I don't think it's helping to make it seem like he's rewriting the history of a heaven-like marriage.

Spike, if you're still reading this there is hope. You have two battles to fight. One, you need to fix your Nice Guy personality. Two, you need to fix your marriage. I'm not a vet like most people, but here's what I think you should do:

1. End the affair now. Go totally no contact. Block her number and email.

2. Fix your Nice Guy self. Be a man who can stand up for himself

3. Confess your affair to your wife and the other husband

4. Get your wife on board with MB

NO ONE said this.
I doubt anyone even thinks this.

Not bad for a self-proclaimed non-vet.
I like lists.

As an aside to you, Vity. What in the world was a married man doing at "happy hour" without his wife? While yelling at her husband is ill advised, if she is upset that he is at a bar without her [wise woman] then the solution is for him to STOP doing that.

Vity, I am a former wayward wife. I can attest to the ridiculous history rewrites of wayward spouses. Been there, done that. While I'm sure that Spike's marriage was not perfect, it does him no good to lament about that stuff when what he is doing is far more damaging to the marriage. Spike needs to clean up his side of the street. That is where his attention should be focused.

Mrs. W

The REASON I went on, and on, and on .... about revisionist marital history was because another MB'er totally bought into the "nut case BW" crapola that was being flung out there.

Nonsense.
My diatribe was for that other Mb'er.

The very fact that he would write out such a long list of complaints about her when he has been treating her so horribly behind her back is proof alone that he is foggy. Not to mention the last THREE years he has spent deceiving those who love and care for him, so of course, we can't trust him to be honest.

Once you put the crackpipe (OW) down and go through withdrawal, you may start to see your W and your M differently. That is what happens to every wayward I have met here and IRL.

EGG ZAK LEE !!!

Spike,

You said you would like to stop the affair and probably can do it. So do it today. Tell your wife about the affair. Write a no contact letter to the other woman. Simple, but not easy.

AM

Spike,

Without doing a long drawn-out analysis of your post, I will offer you what I have gleaned from the information you gave us.

1. I believe you when you say your wife does not want sex with you, and that this dates back to early in the marriage.

2. I believe you when you say your wife states that she hates you.

3. I also believe you that your wife hates to work. Somehow, this rings true.

4. I find it remarkable that you have written things down. Others may find this a ridiculous claim, however. For me, it is not so ridiculous, because I have done such a thing on a job in the past. I worked for a person who was a "nut job" as someone so aptly described, and it was a necessary step for me to take in order for me to maintain some sort of structure to what was being said and what was happening. Otherwise, when I went to talk to the higher-ups, they might have thought I was crazy. Turns out, those very journals that I kept, of emails and notes of conversations became a 1-inch thick notebook full of documentation that turned out handy in a meeting of about 10 people. The woman accused me of something quite crazy and outlandish, denied having directed me to do something, and I simply opened the journal and pulled out her SEVENTEEN EMAILS sent to me the night before (one right after the other) showing that she absolutely HAD done so. The woman was a "nut job", the emails were proof, and our CEO asked for copies of my documentation later that very day - right before she was permanently reassigned to a quite different position. So, yes, I do believe you wrote this stuff down.

5. You won't like this one. Call up your OW's husband, tell him that you have desecrated his marriage, that you will never contact his wife again, and that you are a fool for acting like this. You are NOT a good man in this regard, and your behavior towards this man and his family has been outrageous. You need to expose your affair to him, point him to Dr. Harley's materials, and apologize profusely. Then, follow up with a written letter of NO CONTACT to him and his wife. And MEAN IT.

6. Expose the affair to your wife and your family and friends. Your wife deserves to know the truth of her life.

7. You also won't like what I have to say here. Regardless of the fact that your wife may (or may not) be the worst wife on the entire face of the planet, you had no right to have an affair. You may not love her. You may want a divorce. Feel free to divorce her. Go ahead. The simple fact remains that your post is chock full of feeble attempts at justification for your lack of fidelity. You attempt, over and over, to shirk the blame for your affair onto your wife's back because she's a bad person, she didn't have sex with you, she's unreasonable, she says she hates you.....you go on and on and on! The TRUTH IS that YOU had an AFFAIR because YOU CHOSE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR. You just as easily could have chosen to divorce your wife instead.

You did, at one point, choose to try counseling. You report trying to talk to her. Instead, your next step was not to dissolve the marriage, it was to have an affair. That, sir, is on you. You could post 1,000 so-called justifications, but in the end, an affair is never justified. No matter how much of a nut job you are married to.


8. For your next step, you have some kind of a choice ahead. From your post, I gather one MAJOR underlying message:

You do NOT want to remain married to this woman, and you are asking if this is okay, even though you had an affair and you feel true guilt and remorse about this fact.

I hereby tell you this: It is okay to want a divorce.

It is NOT okay to continue your affair.


It is NOT okay to ruin the other woman's marriage, which, by the way even YOU report was just dandy before YOU got in there and messed it up. Let the OW fix her life.


If you want to get a divorce, fine. But here's one big surprise for you. Do not be shocked if your wife kicks you out first, and if HER version of the marriage isn't even close to yours, come court time.



Just a heads-up on that.


She might also just want to try to save the marriage. You never know.


This is a Marriage Building site. Your post's message really is asking, "Is it okay for me to leave this woman?"


Yeah. You could leave her. Only, when you do, you will take with you the ONE thing that won't change from this marriage right into the next relationship.


You.

You might consider doing a little work here at MB first, before you decide on dumping the whole thing.

Schoolbus

Schoolbus, I do believe you've just out-done your previously best post, and that's saying something.

Nice, succinct post. Spike, it doesn't get any plainer and more straightforward than this.

His affair was wrong.

She is still a nut job.

Ask H1 if so, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that's why H1 divorced NJW, nut job wife.

Welcome to MB Spike. You are not here by accident. You KNOW what you're doing is wrong. Please listen carefully to what is being said to you. A lot of waywards who first come here only hear what offends them. We (as in people) all do that pretty much at first, but if we're honest with ourselves, we admit the truth of what is being said to us. The truth is hard to hear sometimes.

I guess I'm not understanding why you married your BW after all the red flags.

Get this. No matter how bad your marriage is/was, having an affair just adds that much more pain to an already broken marriage. The right thing to do would have been to divorce her, instead of cheating on her. But you know that. The best thing to do is to get serious about your marriage. Either go "all in" or "all out". MB can help you with the "all in" and we can even help you with the "all out" but what we can't help you with is if you want to continue to lie and cheat and somehow stay in your marriage.

Your OW is not wonderful. She is a woman who is willing to cheat with another woman's husband. What does that say about her? What does that say about you?

You CAN get help here. It won't feel good, but sometimes you have to go through the fire to get to the jewel inside.

Read the book.

No matter how awful your wife is, she deserves to know what is going on in her life. She may be to blame for a lot of your marital problems, but you sir, are to blame for heaping even more trouble into the marriage.

BTW, how did you meet your wife? Was she still married when you met?

Please stick around and learn. It will change your life if you open your heart to the truth.

One thing I love about MB is that most of us are not afraid to call BS when we read it. There won't be coddling but you won't find a better bunch of people to support you if you're honest and truly seeking redemption.

Spike,

Welcome to MB, you have found the right place to turn your life around.
I read through your story and thought about the process of a marriage and all the things that happen, I bet you could write another story that is just as long with all the positives in your marriage, but you have chosen to just focus on what is wrong, you seem to have a long check list of things that your wife does/did wrong.
I think if you are honest with yourself you could also write all the things that maybe your didn't provide for her, maybe she was just reacting to the situation at hand and her feelings at the time...........
Having an affair only added to your list and I'm sure she also felt the differences in you I'm sure you just ignored her needs and lived your life with the OW.
What makes you think that you had the right to sleep with someone else's wife?
Why do you think that the OW's husband don't deserve any respect from you, It's not right that you think you are more important than he is................your wife might not have been perfect but neither are you..........did she have an affair?
If you have any shot at fixing this, you need to step up to the plate and do everything in your power to change who you are and set things right, stop seeing the OW, apologize the OW's husband, be honest with your wife and tell her that you have conducted yourself in a manner you are not proud of......
Then you start fixing all the things that are wrong in the marriage, you get a new attitude, the one you should have had all along, you open up communication and affection and start there, the rest will fall into place, if it's real it will feel real to your wife and she will respond.........you have let this marriage go in the ditch, it's now up to you to fix it, your children deserve a better life, with loving parents............
Be that loving man, be selfless, understanding and compassionate........

Sunny,

Thanks, perspective like the one you bring is of interest to me.

One of the problems I have had with ending the affair is that the other woman is an old friend. Her Aunt and Unkle are the only ones that know of this thing. When I learned that she had told them (out of personal dispare and guilt I suppose) I immediately thought that she/they would become agents working to extract her from this destructive cycle. That did not happen.

I have done my best to eliminate any degree of fantasy from this thing with regard to the other woman's perspective. She is fully aware that her husband is not ar fault for this, and that there is no "Happy Ending" in our futures from this.

I eve pointed her to this website a few years ago so that she could read that her reaction to the affair is typical, and can actually be recovered from. She would have no part of it.

That has made the whole "Ending it" thing nearly impossible. I sense that I will have to have her husband's help with it. That is a very unsavory possibility.

I have even considered talking ot one of her brothers about it, But since she is the "Older Sister", I doubt the effectiveness of that as well.

Your OW has NOTHING whatsoever to do with what YOU can do to end this. How? You end it, confess to your wife, promise to yourself and your wife that there will be no contact with OW for the rest of your life. What OW does or doesn't do has no place in your marriage.

Come on, Spike. You're a big boy. You're not helpless. It's up to YOU to end it. Not OW.

Sure, having to involve with another woman's husband to 'help' you end your affair with his wife is unsavory! It could be physically dangerous as well. That's the risk you run when you engage in an affair - the legitimate partner just might have a little problem with it.

You are defaulting to a state of inaction because you don't want to act. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the skank you're bedding.

So what? Who cares? I mean, if women need to offer their DH's DNA tests, then why does this man's wife's personality even factor into HIS A?

Spike,

Your words from yesterday:

"I truly want to stop the affair and can probably do it."

So "just do it". You don't need OW or OWH to end the affair. You just need to man up and do the right thing. Simple, but not easy.

AM

Everyone needs to know about the affair. Starting with your victims, your wife and her husband. The more people who know, the more people to hold you accountable. That is where I would start: tell your wife and then end all contact for life with this skank with a no contact letter. Real simple. Just do it.

More unsavory than sex with another man's wife?

Pep,

I doubt Spike finds having sex with another man's wife unsavory. I would guess that he enjoys banging her as often as he can.

AM

Honesty & honor & integrity are unsavory?

Spike,

Are you currently an honest man with honor and integrity?

AM

Good advice and help all. I am still in the stage where I want some additional analytical assistance.

One of the things I was looking for when I first came to MB was someone with a situation that was somewhat similar to mine. Preferably one with a happy ending. That was long before the affair � so I was not interested in those things. I was arrogant and very judgmental about such things and knew with certainty that would never happen to me � infidelity was not my problem. I was one of those guys that looked at Bill Clinton as a weak and worthless creep. I had always told everyone that there was a very simple way to avoid affairs: Remain unattractive and have no female friends. This was very easy for me based on lifestyle and genetics. In my profession there are very few women and my hobbies are such that I never cross them socially.

With regard to Fog: Perhaps, but I never said that she deserved the affair or that there was any justification for it. I never have justified it. Not to myself, not to the Other Woman, not to her relatives with whom I have spoken to with regard to it.

With regard to the marriage revisionist history, there is none of it. If asked, my wife would probably admit to all of it (she did when we went to the IC thing way back when). She did not immediately cop to any of it or offer it, but when I mentioned it, and the counselor asked about she admitted to it �But�.�.

One thing my wife would say with regard to the marriage history is that the crap all started when I sided with my mom over some issue, but all of the general stuff (the initial threats) started before the event with my mother happened.

This fits in to the thing one of the other posters said with regard to �Nut Job�. She feels that I should support her no matter what she is doing. So if she engages in criminal behavior, I should immediately and totally become complicit in it. I have tried to tell her that that is not love, and I won�t do it.

She has never allowed my kids to spend time with their cousins from my side of the family nor visit their grand parents. Since my dad is dead, and my mother�s health is failing, this should be one point of contention that will end soon.

One other behavioral characteristic that has been VERY puzzling to me, and addresses some of the other posts is she NEVER bad talks me in public. In fact, if you talked to her, and she did not know that I had spoken to you about any of our history, she would tell you that I am the hardest working man she knows. She would also say that I run the house in a calm and orderly manner and have more patience with the kids than she does. She would tell you that I have the patience of job. I have never responded to any of her tirades in kind, and nave never recanted ANYTHING I have ever said to her. I have never said anything to her that was not true or that didn�t need to be said at the moment it was said. I rarely have even defended myself against any of her accusations. Luckily she has never asked me if I was having an affair. The normal �Tell Tale� signs don�t apply to us because of the general nature and tenor of the relationship since the beginning. And since she has taken an inimical posture with all of my friends and family, concealing the affair has not required any extraordinary measures on my part.

Along these lines, when we are out in company, she will complain about going (generally these are friends of mine) and make a big fuss � generally makes me wish I had not agreed to go in the first place. BUT when we get there, she settles in and hangs around me like a normal wife. An outside observer would conclude that she is head over heals in love with me and that as soon as we get home there will be sparks flying. And strangely, this lasts even when we leave. She is sanguine and pleasant throughout the experience. The other day we went to a SuperBowl party and a bunch of women were sitting around asking how she handles me being out of town when I travel. She was telling them how hard it was and how she misses me. One of the women asked if she drives me to the airport and picks me up. She told her that she has offered to do it many times, but since I am such a machine of efficiency, I have streamlined the process and preferred to do it myself. The whole time she is sitting next to me with her hand on my shoulder. I grinned at her because she knew this was BS. Early on, before the kids were in the picture, I would ask her to do just that. I had some fantasy about a joyous reunion. She could not be bothered. Perhaps she was working at the time, but I generally would leave on a Sunday evening and return Friday evening. She could have easily accommodated me, but figured she would be too tired or something.

Someone mentioned something about loud tirades while on a business trip during happy hour. While I don�t go to happy hour, I am a generally sanguine guy that has a profession that truly is my calling. I enjoy my work. I also enjoy (within limits) the normal things a man does in the maintenance of a home and family. Strangely (and one of the reasons I consider this to be one of her more �Nut Job� traits) she begrudges all of this. If I am traveling for work, I have learned to call and tell her how hard it is even though I generally consider the work fun and those I work with to be friends. She seems happier if she thinks I am struggling.

When in rare cases she complains about how much I do around the house I try to explain to her that cutting the grass, shoveling the snow, cutting the firewood, repairing the furnace, installing the water softener, and rebuilding the shower take a lot of my time � AND maintaining the business that buys the TVs and cars she needs, is a lot of work that should be credited to my account if we are going to be honest about tracking the division of labor around the house. To these she has repeatedly stated that they don�t count because I enjoy doing them so much. They are not considered work to her. To this, I state that if there were any way we could trade roles, and I could wash the clothes, drive the kids to school, walk the dog (take her to the dog park where all her friends are), and sweep the floors � and stay home with the kids all the time, rather than traveling all over Tinbcuktoo and doing the other things I do, I would trade in a heartbeat.

The problem with this (and I sense she recognizes it and these complaints have generally stopped) is that if I displayed pleasure in these tasks, she would begrudge them. If she thinks cutting the grass is so much fun, she should try it. I would never begrudge her the enjoyment.

Another ridiculously long post.

You know Spike, I'm noticing a big inclination on your part to word things to suit you and to dress up a tawdry situation.

This 'unsavory' word is one of them. Picking dog poop out of your tennis shoe tread is 'unsavory.' Touching under your seat and finding someone's wad of gum is 'unsavory.'

Destroying another man's world is 'devastating.' Oh, wait! You were talking about YOUR emotions! Got it!

In THAT case, I would suggest that you switch out the word 'tawdry' and replace it thusly:

Spike, have you ever heard the phrase "He damned her with faint praise"? That's every inch what you're doing here.

I would like to see your wife come here to tell us her story. I know that won't happen right now, because you're busy keeping your secret world intact.

When it is no longer all about you and your girlfriend, and you man up and confess this to your wife to give her a chance to contribute to an honest marriage, please tell her we are here waiting for her.

Spike, did you notice that in your latest post, exactly 2 short paragraphs are about your A, and everything else is about all of the things that are wrong with your wife?

It doesn't matter if you're coming right out and saying your wife deserved to be cheated on or not. Your attitude speaks volumes. It's a form of justification to point out all of the things that are wrong with your wife and marriage. That's what foggy waywards do.

And I hate to be the one to inform you of this, but this OW of yours is no friend, old or otherwise. Any woman who would sleep with a married man, with no regards for his wife or children, isn't a friend.

I once thought I was. One thing I have learned is that Honesty and Integrity require Honesty and Integrity, not just natural avoidance of hazard. It's very easy for an unattractive rogue in the constant company of men to avoid encomberances with Other Women.

It is clear that sooner than later, I will be forced to develop something that looks like Honesty and Integrity.

Yeah, I also noticed that he is spending much of his posts explaining why his behavior is dictated by the actions of others.

Spike, your affair is all on you ~ it has nothing to do with your W. If you aren't going NC, it is on YOU, not because of something you can or cannot get OW to do.

Time to take responsibility for your OWN actions.

" And I hate to be the one to inform you of this, but this OW of yours is no friend, old or otherwise. Any woman who would sleep with a married man, with no regards for his wife or children, isn't a friend. "

I considered this as well. None of it makes any sense.

Just a comment:

The "constant company of men to avoid encomberances with Other Women" is called a boundry or extraordinary precaution. It is one of the things responsible people do to avoid affairs.

AM

The matter of how horrible your W is is getting rather old and frankly, annoying. EVERY person who has ever had an A re-writes the marital history.

If it's truly as bad as you say, why in the world do you even want to attempt to save the M? I think you are trying to convince us AND yourself that your M is truly horrible because that is subconsciously helping you to justify your A. Please stop this, your excuses are not helping matters.


Do you mean a recovered and better marriage? If that is what you want, there are lots of us here. We've been in recovery for almost 4 years now and most times are M is better than it's ever been. I know for a fact that my H is in-love with me and wants to spend the majority of his free time with me.

You are making excuses and over-thinking ending your A. You cannot begin to work on the M while the A is still continuing. You are smart enough to know that, yet too weak to do what needs to be done. That is a bad combination.

Please man-up and end this godforsaken affair TODAY.

What doesn't make any sense?

It makes perfect sense. Your OW doesn't really care about you or your family. If she did, she wouldn't have been sleeping with you for the past 3 years.

We should make a rule on the forum that you're not allowed to whine about your spouse until you've already broken off all contact with your affair partner. It would save us a lot of pointless, boring hours skimming through meaningless drivel.

Spike,
Isn't what you are doing now, what you did all the early years, you just kept that list of errors your wife has made and let those things steer your thoughts, you could easily justify any behavior of yours as having a good reason.....that she didn't care any way.......
You have a long past that can't be changed now, no matter how many reasons you come up with........
I say just start over, stop the affair and really throw yourself into the marriage, be honest and say what you want, fix what is wrong, act the way you always imagined your marriage would be............there is a saying around here, when things are tough, fake it until you make it, your actions will eventually have feelings attached to them. Do all the things you wanted to do for your wife, have the marriage you wanted, the way you really wanted to act.......Forget the lists, no one is perfect, if you really love her then really show her.......
Think of all the good that could come out of that, I have never had a very loving relationship with my husband, he had an affair and now I have to say that we have found the love we should have always had, it's because his attitude towards me has really changed, he also had a list a mile long, things he thought I did wrong. He now just accepts me for who I am............He shows me he loves me and he isn't afraid to say it any longer........he now sees the value of a good relationship and connection.
You can have this too, fix things on your side of the street, your wife will notice, you could both fall back in love .......

Objective One Accomplished: I care again, and I am actively ashamed of myself. Hard medicine.

Books Ordered:

Affair has to end, and I have to deal with the fallout.

OW will recover. Her husband loves her.

Wife will deal with whatever happens.

When are you going to end the A?

A timeline is needed. Fridays are always good days because then all affair partners/spouses have the weekend to have meltdowns and spend 48 hours together trying to figure out what to do.

TODAY is a good Friday to do this.

May I tweak your To-Do List a bit?

- Affair has to end, and I have to deal with the fallout. Phone call to OWH confessing A. Immediate NC with OW.

- Confession of affair to BW. Beg for forgivenss and help BW deal with the fallout (it's not about you, Spike, you foggy half-wit! Sorry, I mean, you foggy spouse, you.

- NC letter to OW, to be read by BW, approved by her, and mailed by her.

- Books ordered and read. Questions brought to the MB board for answers.

- Tell BW about MB and let her know that the posters there are waiting to help her deal with this tragedy.

That should get you started.

Spike, has your W ever asked you if you're having an affair?

Has she ever asked you questions suspecting something's up?

Does she think you have a friendship with this OW/old friend of yours ... that you two correspond on a friendly basis?

What do you think your W thinks or knows?

Spike,

You're going to get a lot of 2x4s, but that's because you are caught up in your own type of fog. We've all either experienced marital history revision, or did it ourselves.

That being said, you MUST take some steps regardless of whether or not you will stay in your marriage.

1. Tell OW's husband about your affair.
2. Go to full no contact.
3. Confess the affair to your wife.

Have you ever sat her down, told her bluntly, "I'm not happy and I'm very seriously thinking about leaving you?"

It sounds like she didn't like your announcement about divorce. That tells me that she may be someone who has very poor ways of expressing how she loves you or that she does so at all, but she really does love you.

It sounds to me like you and her never truly communicated and that she is a very dominant personality in your relationship. I get the impression that she tends to be the one that dictates things while you "do" and get by silently.

I was in a similar marriage. I too was alienated from my family, did things that weren't appreciated, and generally waited on her hand and foot.

The difference was that she cheated on me.

Would I have eventually been worn down over the years? I don't know. We're all wired to cheat.

But you've crossed that line, and regardless of what path you take, you must confess your affair.

It sounds to me like you're in a very dysfunctional relationship with a woman that is emotionally stunted in terms of expressing affection.

But none of this is justification for cheating nor is it not correctible.

I'm sure your announcement of divorce is a wake up call for your BW.

What has her attitude been since you've told her? Is she willing to work on anything?

You're going to keep getting 2x4s. We want you to save your marriage and end your affair.

But nothing can happen until and unless you end your affair.

I would like to point something out to you Spike. This may be something you remembered reading during your time here before, and maybe not.

Wayward spouses ALWAYS affair DOWN

That means that whatever you think about your BW, your OW is actually WORSE. Can you get your head around that?

Not only that, but YOU are lower than the OWH. You can't hold a candle to HIM.

Here, let me helpfully edit what you need to worry about right now, Spike:


With respect, HTLD, I'm highly disinclined to believe an active WS's revisionist history when rendering judgment on the BS. More importantly, Spike, is that NONE OF THAT MATTERS RIGHT NOW. Your BW takes care of her side of the street, and YOU TAKE CARE OF YOURS -- which, frankly, right now looks a whole lot like that dog **** maritalbliss mentioned on your shoe earlier...

This is absolutely right.

Where are your honesty and integrity, Spike? You're going to need them if you want to crawl out of the hole you've dug yourself.

MrsV, the reason it was suggested to Spike to tell OMH first and then his W was so he wouldn't chicken out.

Spike, has your W ever asked you if you're having an affair?

A couple of times before I was actually having one.


Has she ever asked you questions suspecting something's up?

Not since something was up. The affair is not a frequent thing, and there is really no difference in the way things have been with us.


Does she think you have a friendship with this OW/old friend of yours ... that you two correspond on a friendly basis?

No, She "Knows" I have always believed that such "Friendships" are fraught with peril. She, surprisingly, did not believe such bromides.



What do you think your W thinks or knows?

I don't think so. I think she would say something, or treat me differently. But no such evidence.

I misread your last question:
What do you think your W thinks or knows?

I think she thinks I have just given up. She would say something if she suspected an affair.

Spike, what are you going to do?

Lay it out to us.

Yes to Scotty's comment.

Confessing to OWH first serves another purpose: when he tells his wife about the A, he can show her his commitment to ending it by being able to say he'd already confessed to OWH.

AND: it also forces him to commit to his BW and M without waiting to see if his BW is going to toss him out on his ear after he confesses. He's not keeping OW in the wings as a fall-back option.

Yu wanted a story like yours that has a happy ending?

Everything you need to worry about in your story is in mine:

1. I dealt with my "unhappiness" by having an A
2. It was inexcusably wrong
3. I got over myself
4. I repented and confessed
5. I worked at recovery and helping my DH heal WITHOUT thinking about myself for a long time because I was the one who chose to cheat

That's why we recovered. So far, you've got 1 and 2. Your 3, 4, and 5 aren't even close. Stop talking about your "nut job" wife (or listening to people who want to focus on it) and do the right thing. Period.

Ahhh, I see. Thanks, ladies.

My larger point w/ the post was to show Spike his work right now has little to nothing to do with how he currently views his W/M -- he has to work on himself, and the rest comes later.

Spike, whose side of the street are you going to focus on?

No real objective has been accomplished. All of this is hot air when there is still contact.

Can you tell us your plan to establish No Contact? (hint: this does not involve anyone else's actions like OW's aunt, etc)

ps ~ who cares if OW will recover her M? her M is none of your business and should have ZERO bearing on anything that you do from now on...unless you want to continue being a wayward spouse...

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spike <~~~~ Is this name at ALL related to any "pet name" OW has for you ????

Your history is a 13 year dishonest marriage.
Not just the time during your adultery.

Your integrity will begin with an end to your self dishonesty/delusion/denial.

You must "call a spade a spade" when it comes to YOUR behavior. Not your wife's behavior.

Your 13 year marital behavior has been abhorrent.
You have procrastinated fixing things.
You have avoided necessary conflict.
You have failed to develop openness as a couple.
You are full of excuses.
You are full of secrecy.
You are willing to remain silent as the ship, which is your family, sinks.


See the above in blue?
Please note, I never mentioned adultery.

Ok, so where is the plan? This is a whole lotta nothing.

When will you be telling her the truth?

And will you answer the question I asked earlier?

Was your wife married when you guys got together?

Spike:

If your interested in fixing this, read my story of Dday Here: LG DDay story

I had an affair for 4.5 years on my wonderful wife.

I was a lousy husband.

Dday changed everything.

I would have liked to have stumbled onto this site at the 3 year mark, instead of four days before the end.

I don't know if your wife is a nut job or not. But I had SF with my wife during the entire marriage and during the A. So THAT was never an issue. Everything else was on me as well, to CHOOSE to have an affair.

I learned an awful lot about me and what I was made of AFTER I was exposed to MB. You can do this.

I Did. My Flamingo did.

NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, IT WON'T BE EASY. AFFAIRS are EASY.

Your nuclear explosion is coming, no matter what. You can control the day of explosion, or wait for it to happen.

And yes, she will take you to the cleaners in the divorce.

It starts with ending your A.

LG

Link to Trueheart's letter.


Trueheart = a reformed adulterer

Pepperband, do you think it would do any good at all to send this to a WS? I'm in Plan B and so shouldn't send it anyway, but would a wayward really have some of the fog lifted by reading this?

I could always ask my grown-up daughter to send it, if it would help at all.

Spike,

This one sentence tells more about you than you will EVER be able to disguise.

In my business, this single sentence just leaps off the page, shakes my world, and makes me just laugh so hard I need a new box of Kleenex to move forward with the typing, because you opened the door to your soul for me, and gave me your secret password to boot.

Here's why:


Your first post - as you might recall - was underpinned with the message that you really were asking for permission to divorce your wife. I told you that. I also told you that it was perfectly okay to go ahead and divorce her, but that it was not okay to try to justify your affair by blaming all of this garbage on her.

You may very well have all these wonderful reasons to divorce your wife. She may very well be a "nut job". Your posts are very full of "reasons" why she is a very mean person, and why you should not love her. That's all very fine and dandy, and if you want to use those reasons to discuss with an attorney why you want to file for divorce, by all means - use them.

In the meantime, you open your soul here and let me know the single most important reason your wife should divorce you. And it has nothing to do with your affair.


It has to do with your concept of what the truth is.


You say that you must develop something that "looks like" openness and honesty. An interesting take on the truth. William James had similiar views of the truth, Spike. James' view of the truth can basically be boiled down into the idea that the truth is not an entity unto itself, but the truth is "whatever works" - that is, whatever works for the person who sees it, and manipulates it for the purpose at the time. Your concept of "honesty" is whatever works for you - whatever gains you what you want, or need, as long as what facts you can align will support that "truth" for you.

You believe that if your "argument" for the "truth" holds enough water, that makes your argument valid, and therefore your version of the truth makes it the truth.


This is not how the truth works.


The truth IS - it simply IS - on its own, a stand-alone truth. Honesty has nothing to do with what WORKS to create what you want or desire, or how you "look" to another person.


You cannot manipulate the truth. It is a stand-alone entity.


As long as you remain in the belief that you must make an appearance of being open and honest


and not actually BE open and honest


you are not worth being married to.


And whether you want to hear this or not


you really are not worth having an affair with, either. Your other woman ought to dump you for the exact same reason!



SB

No.
Plan B is closed to this sort of missive.
use this later IF recovery is ever the topic brought up BY THE WAYWARD.

SPIKE,

WHEN POSTS HURT YOU OR ANGER YOU, THOSE ARE THE POSTS THAT ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO. WHY? BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE POSTS THAT HIT CLOSEST TO THE REAL TRUTH OF THE MATTER

AND

WILL HELP YOU GET BACK TO HEART OF THE PROBLEM IN YOUR MARRIAGE.


I do have a book recommendation for you Spike:

"Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box" by The Arbinger Institute.


You will recognize yourself as the main character. After you get past being really angry at me, read the book again with an open mind

and NOT

a "let's pretend to read it with an open mind".


Schoolbus

I heart SB.

Where's the 'LIKE' icon?? Like for FaceBook? I 'LIKE' SB!

Thanks, MB and PM and Pep!

I wish spike would come back....seems he's a bit shy of late.

He's busy with the list of his wife's character blemishes.
Can't neglect his priority, yanno?

I still get creeped out, every time I read that.

Maybe he should have kept a journal of his own behavior.

Shocking suggestion !

Sometimes when people act like "nut jobs", other people do resort to keeping journals in order to sort things out. That's one way to keep yourself organized, because you really can get sucked into believing that you are the one who is crazy.

I had to do this as a child - I lived in a crazy-making home, and when I wrote things down and was able to look at them later it helped me realize that I really DID NOT have a skewed view of things, and that my recall of events was clear. At times I was shocked at what I was able to forget - given the events of my life at the time, you might think I would have remembered every tiny detail. I didn't. Things happened that were detailed, and the journals brought me back to my personal reactions to those events, and the details of the events when I re-read them a few weeks later, or months/years later. It helped me to keep perspective, because the very people who were "nut jobs" in my world were quite effective at telling me that "I" was crazy, "I" needed help, and that "I" was not able to see the truth.

These people were the very people who lived by the rule of truth that William James practiced. The truth is whatever worked for them and their needs at the time, was the truth for that moment. The truth was a malleable and flexible and perspective-based ideal, meant only to be used for a purpose and a means to an end.

Spike has this to overcome in himself. He views the truth in this way. The issue is also that his journals serve a purpose not to help him see the truth of his life, or to help him overcome a crazy-making sitation

but rather

to serve to condemn his wife.


There is likely a very skewed perspective in those journals, one in which Spike paints himself as completely innocent and with a near halo over his head in all interactions with his wife. He likely takes no blame for his own part in the downfall of the marriage.


Which is really too bad. Because the TRUTH of this entire situation is this:


IF SPIKE'S WIFE IS, AND HAS BEEN, AS CRAZY AND EVIL HAS HE PORTRAYS HER TO BE, HE SHOULD HAVE EITHER

LEFT HER

OR

PURSUED PROFESSIONAL INTERVENTION FOR HER either with or without her permission,


LONG BEFORE NOW.

LONG BEFORE AN AFFAIR.


So, she is either a complete nut job, and Spike chose to ignore this fact and not help the poor woman with her mental illness

or

she is completely evil and Spike chose to remain in a marriage with a terribly evil person.


Either choice is not good.


Now, there is the fact that the reaction is an affair, a request for approval to divorce or to continue the affair and protect the OW from exposure, or something in the middle of these...not sure what Spike wants at this point, as he is evasive on his wishes.


At any rate, I'm pretty sure his wife's story would include some measure of blame for Spike.


Pretty sure of that.


And I'm pretty darn sure that 100% of the blame for the affair

belongs to


Spike.



SB

You rock SB.

ITA. Something is very amiss here.