I'm new to this forum. If this question has been posted a million times before, by all means please go ahead and point me to past threads that can help me...

My wife and I have been separated for a year and a half. She left due to an affair, which has been on again off again over the time we've been apart. I made a lot of mistakes during that time: for five months I tried to compete with the OM and meet her needs, but did not impose tough love principles; then when it was obvious she was still cheating on me (though she had said she wasn't) I cut off all contact and subsequently had a relationship with someone else (which I now realize was wrong and totally regret); then I smartened up and tried to work on things with her after her affair fell apart; we were doing that for several months and seeing a counselor, till she said it wasn't working and wanted a divorce; I imposed no contact again; in the meantime she went back to the OM for a short time, got scared of losing me when it was clear I would never talk with her again, broke it off with the OM and came back to me.

This time I've been smarter and more strict: we have a 4 month contract including zero contact with the OM outside of strictly business work related contact (which I've strictly made her enforce), weekly relationship coaching sessions, weekly dating and conversations, and time together with our kids (we have two girls). I had thought things were going better - she has, to my best knowledge, been faithful to the no contact rule and the feelings for the OM are waning; we've made a lot of progress in learning to identify our triggers and avoid some of our bigger love busters; I've done a lot of work to try to meet her emotional needs, and to ask for mine in a caring way, many of which she has been meeting. However, she's had huge trouble reconnecting physically and sexually with me. I keep asking for more movement on this front and we've tried but she says it feels fake and that she is not feeling the emotional spark. We have a great friendship, but she just doesn't feel attracted to me. I've said I'm okay with this taking time, but it is a strain for both of us because I feel unappreciated and she feels guilty. She is also feeling like I am making this "working on things" into a project and that it all feels unnatural and fake. This past week she has been feeling sad and disconnected and said she's frustrated because she doesn't feel we can have a normal conversation about things that she is feeling and that I don't "get" her feelings. I've been trying to be more in touch with her feelings but every time I try there seems to be something else I'm not doing right and that the feelings are just not there for her.

Then, two days ago she had a session with her counselor and came to me afterward, saying it's not working and that she feels it's time to end it and go ahead with a divorce. I was hurt and said I was disappointed but if that's what she wanted, I wouldn't stop her. She said she was set on this. However, we still have a month left in our contract, and on reflection, I'm now thinking I should not let this go so easily. Many people in my life are saying I need to just let go, we've been at this for a year and a half and I need to recognize when it's time to quit. Including her counselor and our relationship coach. That I deserve someone who will love me fully and she is not in that place. Having read a lot of the advice on marriage builders, I don't agree with this advice, and am disappointed they are not being more firm with her. I think the affair fog may still be playing a role in her judgment - it has only been four months since her last relationship contact with the OM and she still sees him everyday at work. So naturally I can see how this may be skewing her feelings about me. I also see how even though I'm trying hard to meet her needs, and she recognizes this, there are probably love busters I'm still unintentionally sending, like trying to convince her to keep working on things, trying to convince her not to follow her feelings, etc. Me always being "right" was an issue in the past so I can see how I may still be doing this now and am willing to continue to change, however, she does not communicate her needs well, is still very distant in many ways, and feels this whole process feels fake and unnatural and wants things to be easy and spontaneous and they're not right now and that is disappointing to her. I think she's feeling exhausted from all the work we've been doing lately and giving up just seems so much easier to her by comparison.

I don't know what to do. My first inclination was to accept the divorce and move on, but now I'm wondering if there's anything I can still do. I can hold her to the contract, and she will likely accept that if I express respectfully that I'd like to give it the full time we'd agreed on giving it. I can ask for a deeper conversation about why she wants to call it off now, and try harder to meet the needs she is expressing and to avoid whatever love busters I'm sending. But I don't want to be a doormat, and I'm not sure at what point I need to accept the divorce and let her make her own mistakes, even if I disagree. Any help would be much appreciated!

Welcome to MB.

If she sees him daily at work then her affair is very active. She needs to have NC for life with him. She will need to quit her job.

Who have you exposed to?

Is your OW married? Who is she?

As a side note, we were given Harville Hendrix's Getting the Love you Want by our marriage coach, but are not following it strictly in our sessions. I've been using it a lot, her much more reluctantly.

I stopped right here because I knew you were dead in the water when I read this. There is no hope as long as she has ANY contact with the OM. This is like the alcoholic who changes the name of his booze to "business drinks" and pretends to get sober. That is all that has happened here. You and your wife are pretending like the affair is now a business relationship.

You should just get divorced if she won't end ALL contact because this is hopeless. I don't have to read the rest of the post to be able to tell you that. Sorry.

I know she needs no contact, but I have tried to do this in stages. I've made it clear that if we reconcile, she will have to quit her job, but have not insisted on this during this phase of "discernment" where we are trying to decide about recommitting. I know there is a view on MB that nothing can proceed until she quits her job, so part of my question is whether I'm fighting a hopeless battle and should just accept the divorce and impose no contact with her until she comes to her senses? At this point, I have little leverage since it's her who is asking for a divorce, not me.

I have really struggled with exposure. I have told our minister, numerous mutual friends, and my family. I have not told our kids (8 and 10), her mom, or people at her work. Every single person in my life has warned me away from doing this. I know you will say I need to do this, and am willing to listen, but I feel I have lost credibility by a) waiting so long - most people have said say why bother, the affair is over (even though I agree the contact is still having an effect), and I will just look like a bitter jilted ex, and b) I had an extramarital relationship too, so I have lost credibility here, although I have no issue admitting that openly. Open to advice.

For context, I also have been recovering from a pornography addiction and depression. I fully own up to my faults in the marriage. She did not speak up, but I was not always wonderful to live with and I knew the porn hurt her feelings and did not seek help till December. I now go to SAA and am four months clean. Also something I have no issue sharing publicly.

Finally, the OW is 100% out of the picture. Former co-worker who lives in another city now. Ended last June and I have not spoken to her since one time in September last year. It was not a revenge affair, but after feeling so hurt and dumped, it felt so good to be wanted by someone. I know know it was a colossal mistake and have also made this clear numerous times to my wife. She feels she can't criticize me given what she has done, but I know she is still very hurt and does not want to discuss it at all, even though she reluctantly will answer my questions about her affair.

Dr Harley addressed this book in one of his newsletters:

The founder is divorced from his first wife, and said during a speech that his current marriage was not helped by IMAGO which was very disappointing to him. He still supports the program but is just not a part of it anymore.

For clarification: there is no personal conversation allowed with the OM, and she has to my knowledge been true to that (and given me access to her blackberry, etc to check up if I want). I have been getting help from other sites like Beyond Affairs which say there are circumstances where work related contact can be permissible if boundaries are strictly enforced. But I know that for the MB approach, even the professional contact is a problem. Is this generally seen here as a game-ending issue then? I know I have no hope of getting her to change jobs now, so if that's the case, I guess I'll just have to accept the divorce.

She will not WANT to commit until she ends all contact with him.


And we can all see the result, sadly.


You have made so many strategic mistakes for such a long time that I give this little hope. Not even exposure can help you now, IMO. I agree you have lost credibility. When an affair is enabled for this length of time, I would consider it gone.

I would tell your kids what happened, though. You will have to explain your own affair. I would let them know the reason your marriage broke up. They have a right to know the truth. I am not going to spend time trying to talk you into anything though. You came here too late.

The Hendrix approach has also made her frustrated, we do the Imago dialogues but she feels like I am being a "mediator" to her when all she wants is a normal conversation.

Thank you for your honesty.

That is a ridiculous assertion that you can't possibly hope to prove.


Yes, and you have a destroyed marriage to prove it. It is silly to suggest that affairees have "boundaries" at work. That is like the alcoholic claiming to have "boundaries" when he goes drunk driving.


It is not a "Marriage Builders approach" but a matter of REALITY. Recovery is impossible unless all contact ends.

Changing the name of the affair to "professional contact" is cute but does not resolve the problem. Just as an alcoholic cannot sober up by changing the name of his drinks to "business drinks," neither can an adulterer withdraw from an affair while still in contact.


I agree. You are done.

IMAGO infuriates me. It is a HUGE lovebuster to most people. But IMAGO is about communication and conflict. None of which can save a marriage. Even the best communicators and conflict resolvers end up divorced if they are not in love.

No Contact is the FIRST step in marital recovery.
If she is unwilling to change jobs then she really doesn't want to end the affair

I am so sorry, I really wish I could give you hope.

So is it worth expressing to her why I accept the divorce and that I would consider reconciliation if she were to realize she made a mistake, changed jobs, and decided to recommit? Or should I just go ahead and implement no contact with her and move on with my life?

You still have a chance if you Plan A.
But you need to expose this affair to your kids and everyone else, including OM family and friends.
You should also expose it to the employer.

Who is the OM? Is he married?

Please read this particular post.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659680#Post1659680

It, in an outline will tell you what you are dealing with and how it has to go down for you to have a chance for a recovered marriage.

You might not recover it but it is the most logical chance you have.

Exposure IS crucial.

It IS difficult to get the guts to do.

Others, who are not in your marriage and who give you input will tell you its a bad idea. Those people are wrong. Exposure must be done and done properly as mentioned in the linked post above.

It IS a scary thing to see the vile, evil response to it from your beloved.

But........without it..........your marriage will remain crippled into the future.

The OM is going through his own divorce right now.

How do you know?
Have you spoken to his wife?
If not do so ASAP

I have not spoken to her, but their house is for sale and I know from my wife (back during the last time she was with him, in January) he was involved in a custody battle for his son.

Do you still see value in speaking to her?

Don't believe ANYTHING your wife tells you!
Yes! You need to contact the betrayed wife immediately in person

You need to TEAR this affair apart!
Expos� to the mans wife!
Call his mother, ask her to keep him away from your wife.
Send a message to all of his family and friends on Facebook.

Expos� to the employers TOP LEVEL management.

Read the Exposure 101 thread in melody lanes signature.
You should have done this a year ago.
It needs done this weekend

Of course! You can share valuable information and may be able to help her in her custody battle.

Jedi Knight, you seem more optimistic than MelodyLane about my chances ... I'll admit that the idea of exposure is VERY scary to me. But I guess that I have really nothing at all to lose, so I'm listening.

My wife told me early on that the OM's wife knows about the affair - the fact she found out is the reason that my wife told me, because the other wife threatened to tell me. MelodyLane, what you say about helping the OM's wife in her custody battle makes sense. I will contact her.

I know in retrospect that I've made many mistakes. I let things slide because a) I was angry and hurt and didn't want to speak with her for a long time; b) I've been a doormat and afraid to confront and expose her; and c) I was getting what seemed like helpful advice at the time; it really felt like the Harville Hendrix approach was working and we were rediscovering the love. These are all my own errors and I don't blame them on anyone but me. I now realize it may be too late, and I should have done these things long ago, so I just want to know if there is value to trying a full on exposure at this stage or if I should just accept a divorce and focus on telling my kids the truth.

Another mistake I may have made was signing a separation agreement with my wife where we split custody 50-50. At the time I didn't want to hurt our kids by depriving them of both their parents. Yes, I know that SHE is depriving them of 50% of the time they could be spending with their parents and I should not have enabled her on this. I'm not sure if there is any value or even possibility of seeking full custody if we divorce, given that we've been in this arrangement for a year and a half now and given I've also had an extramarital relationship. Any thoughts on this?

If I were you, I would expose the affair. I don't believe it will save your marriage at this point, but it will let everyone know who the OM really is and the part he played in the breakup of your marriage.

By doing this, many circles in your family and friends will reject the OM.. Otherwise, he will inject himself as some new man your wife met AFTER you broke up. Others need to know taht he played an instrumental part in the breakup of your marriage. You don't need that RAT to impose himself in every corner of your life. And most especially, your children need to know that he is the enemy of their family. Your children will deeply resent it when they find out they have been tricked.

Do her parents have any idea what happened? Have they been introduced to him?

I would ask your lawyer about this. It all depends on the laws of your state.

Yes, you should tell OMW everything you know that can help her. Tell your kids the truth, too, so they will be less confused about what has happened with their mom. Kids blame themselves when they don't understand why their parents have changed. Your kids deserve to know the nature and the name of the slimeball who has been interfering in their parents' marriage.

There is just her mom (her dad passed away years ago). She has not told her mom and is totally afraid to. But I could tell her too.

Yes, you should tell her mom.

That's a good point, IAintReadyToQuit. I don't think there is enough there for my wife to marry to the OM, which is why she has not been able to stay with him for very long at a time. But if it happened, I'd want them to know what really happened.

I am sure she would appreciate knowing this.

Thank you. All this is giving me courage.

You can continue to hold her to the contract without telling her you're doing that.

Show her and tell her how much you love her whenever you can be in contact with her. Be the best YOU that you can be.

Tell her mom what you have been going through with her daughter. Tell MIL how much you love her DD and will forever if your wife will recommit to you. Your MIL can be an ally for you with your wife.

You have not yet exposed to everyone who could have an impact yet? That can be a powerful resource for your future and will give you some relief from your anguish.

Thank you everyone for all the advice so far - I really appreciate it, though it is hard to hear.

Please forgive me if you hear this a million times. I'm not arguing with anyone, just trying to understand. There seems to be an automatic assumption that my wife's affair is continuing just because she continues to work with the OM. Are you defining "affair" as PA/EA, or the affair "fog" and confusion due to the continued contact.

The reason I ask is that I can readily accept the second and agree with that. I have trouble assuming the first. I understand that people who cheat become habituated to lying and covering things up. I readily will admit there are likely things she still isn't telling me. But I have been very diligent in demanding her to be accountable for her whereabouts and her contact with the OM over the past three months. She has been voluntarily forthcoming on a large number of occasions when he tried to initiate contact with her, asked me what I was okay with, and accepted my firm insistence that there be no work-related contact - hated it and has been very angry at me for it, but to best of my knowledge, has been true to that. She has been open about the fact she still has feelings for him and that she is trying hard to let those pass, and that they are starting to fade away after several months. She was honest about her return to him in January even though she did not have to be (she could have kept it secret and I would not have known), even though she knew I would be (and was) very angry with her. She has voluntarily admitted that her affair was wrong and was a mistake and that she doesn't want to be in a relationship with him anymore, though she has not fully acknowledged and owned up to the destruction it has caused. I recognize she has hid behind secrecy and not shared things in the past (which I accept as deceitful), but to my knowledge she has never hid from a direct question when challenged - she has many times in the past refused to tell me things, but to my knowledge has not told me things that are untrue that I later found out were true.

My question is, are you all insinuating that the PA is actually still continuing through the work relationship and that she has likely been lying to me the past three months? Or just that the continued contact at work is still messing with her head and that unless that is severed forever there is no chance at recovery? I ask only because I want to understand exactly what you mean when you say the affair is still continuing.

I'm recognizing that this probably can't be saved, that it has gone on too long, and at this point just trying to understand what went wrong and whether at this point there is value in going all out, or whether I should just let go and focus on being honest with my kids and other people we are both close to.

Again, thank you everyone for your comments.

Dmel;

It doesn't matter if the A is still physical. It is still ongoing if she has ANY contact w/ OM.

I went through this w/ my WH. He committed to a work transfer, just "business only" contact until the time the transfer went through... Which dragged on for 5 months!! Because, there is NO SUCH THING as business-only contact.

Like your situation, Taffy knew his A was wrong. He knew it could only end badly. He was apologetic to me. He was resolved to work on our marriage. But, he now admits, HE COULD NOT STOP THE A so long as there was any possibility of contact.

You say your WW is having difficulty committing to you. OF COURSE she is, so long as there is any contact, or any possibility of contact. Whether she is truthful about disclosing the nature of the ongoing contact is irrelevant.

You are fearful of exposure. We all were. But you should be more fearful of NOT exposing. Because that is what has produced your results to date. You have enabled your wife's ongoing confusion and ongoing A. I am sorry for your pain.

The affair has not ended. WW by not having NC with the OM is still pining for the OM.

Plan A

Full exposure WW parents, siblings, work, FB; OMW, OM parents, work, FB.

She is having an affair at work. This is a physical affair. She might not be having sex with him right this second, but the affair is very active. Like I said earlier, all you have done is changed the name of the affair to "professional contact." The affair is live and well. The notion that you are "keeping her accountable" is ludicrous. That is like saying you are holding her accountable while she goes drunk driving.

We are not insinuating, we are telling you how it is. You are too foggy to understand the situation because you have no objectivity.

And even if she did decide to end her affair and is temporarily calling her affair "professional contact" ALL THE ADVICE WOULD BE THE SAME.

Dmel, I would certainly tell your children, your wife's mother and the OM's wife about the affair. It is very likely that the OM's wife has no idea why her marriage is being destroyed. You have a moral obligation to tell her.

And the most important piece of advice I can give you is to pay no attention to your wife's words. Pay attention to her actions. Her claims that the affair is over are all lies. I am not guessing about this, I am giving you a fact. She is probably telling you this so you will cooperate with the divorce. You don't understand what you are dealing with and have allowed yourself to be manipulated all along. That is why you are getting divorced.

Another important piece of advice

do not tell wife you are going to expose.

Just do it in one fell swoop. Preplan your contacts to do it to and then do it to each, one after another til each person has been informed.

Your wife will be hissing, spitting, scary mad and threaten you with things once she realizes people know. THAT is NORMAL. Just prepare yourself for that scary result. It is okay for you to make her mad........just stay cool and do not react visibly to the assault of hostility.

It will eventually blow over.

I just called the OMW. She did know about the affair from way back, as my wife had told me. But she is getting divorced and has not spoken with her ex about his personal life since this time last year. She said she is putting all this behind her and doesn't really care anymore what he is doing, did not ask much for details and could not share much with me, but said she appreciated the call and was willing to help if there was anything she could help with.

Good job! And keep in mind that your wife did not know if the OMW knew or not. She only told you what she was told by a liar. Everything your wife tells you is likely a lie and has to be independently verified BY YOU.

Cheaters are liars who operate on the basis of pure selfishness. If a lie serves their purpose, they will tell a lie.

It is also very common for cheaters to SAY they have told their spouse so that others won't contact them and tell them. Sadly, if you and the OMW had communicated 2-3 years ago when the affair started, you probably could have killed this affair and saved your marriage. But there is no use crying over spilled milk.

p.s. I would tell your kids, your MIL and anyone else today so you get this done in one fell swoop. Your wife will come after you with fury so you might as well get your money's worth.

And please get your hands on the book, Surviving an Affair by Dr Bill Harley. I think you can download it on your computer. If you don't have a kindle you can download Kindle for PC's. That book is the bible for affairs. You will be able to relate to the story of Sue and Jon.

Okay. I'm committed to telling my kids. I am still on the fence about exposing to the rest of the world - yes, scared, I fully admit - but you have me actively considering it. Nothing else I have done has had an impact, so I'm not justifying anything about my previous approach or the errors in it. I do want to understand how the package works first. If I were to do this, I would stick with plan A, which means try to stay engaged and meet her needs in any way possible, be my best self and show her I love her and want to reconcile. I've read the article on this but have a few questions. Do I try to prolong the divorce, fight it? How long do I do this for until I accept the divorce? How long after the divorce should I keep trying? We are at 18 months already since D-day, so I'm 100% aware this is not a good situation and want to know what I'd be up against and where the slivers of hope might be. I'm still learning how this works, so grateful for any information.

The OMW told me something strange. My wife had said the OM told her his wife found out and threatened to tell me. That was why my wife decided to tell me (18 months ago). However, the OMW told me she never said that and would never have told me as she didn't see it as her business to. Right or wrong, it reveals a lie somewhere, so I'm seeing what you are saying. Maybe the OM or my wife were just afraid she would tell me?

Yes, I am seeing what you mean about not being able to trust things that are said by cheaters - you don't need to tell me again

You have lost your marriage because you have operated on the basis of FEAR this whole time and have inadvertently ENABLED the affair. You can't save a marriage when you are an enabler who allows FEAR to drive his emotions.

You have nothing to lose at this point because you have lost everything, by being fearful. If you want to wait to finish these exposures, you only make the situation much harder when you have to deal with her fury 1000 times. Just deal with it one time and get it over with.

Exposure is not likely to save your marriage, but it will help you in the future if everyone knows how your marriage ended and who the OM really is. By keeping the secret, you ENABLE that POS to insert himself into your family. Don't do that for him. Don't be an enabler.

You are such a fearful person that I would IMPLORE you to get these exposures done today. Don't delay. I don't feel you have the stamina to withstand her fury over and over again.

Do you want to help the OM insert himself into your family's life? That is all you are doing by keeping his secret.

How do you think your children are going to feel when they find out? Will your MIL appreciate that you allowed some piece of CRAP to ingratiate himself into her home without knowing he helped destroy her grandchildren's lives?

If my son was involved in an affair and brought the skank to my home, she would not be allowed to cross my threshold.

You have absolutely no good reason to hide this affair from anyone. To do so makes you an accessory to the crime.

No, please don't misunderstand me. I agree I've been operating on fear. You're totally right! But at this stage, I'm not worried about her fury. I have handled that many times before, and have no issue with that. It may have been an issue in the past but if I have nothing to lose, it is suddenly not an issue.

I'm afraid of looking like a jilted spouse trying to stir up problems because of sour grapes. I'm afraid of looking bad to others who will say "who cares? why are you airing all this dirty laundry?" and think I'm a selfish, bitter person. You can criticize that if you want, and go ahead, but it's not because I'm afraid of her anger.

One of the complex issues is that I work for the same organization as my WW and the OM. Not in the same branch or area, but spreading this around at work will have a big effect on me too. Also, to be fully honest, I will have to air my dirty laundry too - the SA and my affair. Because if I don't, she will. I've told many individuals I'm friends with, but this is different, and yes, frightening to consider. If it must be done, it must be done, but it's hard. If she is fired, I could be also. If this affects her chances of promotion, it will affect mine also. And we have kids to support. It's just a lot to think of. So yes, I'm scared.

To take a step: should a letter to her colleagues mention just her affair, or also mine? Or should I do that only if she brings it up in response and freely admit to it if anyone asks?

Gotcha! And thanks for saying this.


That is the exact reaction you can expect from some quarters. Just expect that some people will react badly and others will react with compassion and offer support.


I would not spread this around to work colleagues, except close alliances. That is not what we mean by exposure. Go read my exposure thread about appropriate exposure targets. The affair should be exposed to Human Resources as directed.


Don't even bring up your affair except to your children. The purpose of the letter is to explain the reason for the breakup of your marriage. When you speak to your children, you will want to tell them about your affair and why this is wrong. But otherwise, don't bring it up.

The whole point of your exposure is to explain to the world WHY your marriage is ending. The purpose is not to air all the dirty laundry in your marriage. if you do that, people will think you are a kook. And if your wife comes back and says you did blah, blah, blah, people will view it as excuse making. See what I mean?

dmel, and you need to do this today. I would call or email close family and friends today and whip off a letter to the Director of Human Resources and a key VP tomorrow so it is waiting in their in box on Tuesday.

And again, the purpose of the letter is to inform them of a matter that directly affects the workplace, which is your wife and the OM's affair. Your affair does not affect them. Your company is at legal risk because of their workplace affair.

Check out the templates and best practices on my exposure thread.

Thank you for being firm but understanding. I suppose this is the approach I should use as well with her, right?

I just found out that her mother is in the hospital with a perforated stomach. I'd prefer to not introduce this in a way that could risk her health. Do you still suggest moving today, or wait a couple of days for her to stabilize?

I also was thinking of asking my wife about this tonight. I haven't spoken to her since she asked for divorce and frankly at the time I was too shocked and feed up to inquire why. (At the moment, I felt ready for a divorce too and didn't care anmore whether she was cheating.) I know you are saying I can't trust her but in the past she has admitted to cheating when asked a direct question. It would help to have any kind of evidence I can glean, right?

And thank you for the tips. I'll read your thread again for details.

You got it!


I would definitely wait on that exposure.


What specifically are you going to ask her about? If she is still having an affair?

You are very welcome. You have a long shot here if you expose and I will explain why. I do believe you will end up divorced. BUT, if you expose the affair it will crumble and die out. Not exposing the affair keeps it alive and well. By exposing it will crumble when they can't pretend like this all started up AFTERWARDS to the outside world. When reality intrudes, the fantasy will be burst.

Exposure puts great pressure on the affair because many people will have nothing to do with them. And they will always wonder if people are looking down on them.

When the affair dies off, your wife may come to her senses. When that happens, there is always a chance you can reconcile and even remarry. But that is very unlikely to happen if the fantasy is protected and kept alive.

It is a long shot but there is some hope. You have nothing to lose after all.

Yes. And exactly in what ways OM is involved with decision to divorce. As I said, she could lie, but has answered this question frankly on several previous occasions - never disclosed voluntarily, but at least answered direct questions. I figure it may be one way to possibly confirm something and at least I'd have hat info. If she denies obviously it may or may not be true.

Would you ask a falling down drunk why they drink and expect to get a rational answer? You can ask if OM was involved in decision to divorce, BUT I will tell you that I have NEVER EVER seen a cheater admit that their affair was involved. BECAUSE their goal is to blame the divorce on the betrayed spouse. We already KNOW that the reason they are getting divorced is because of the affair. So there is really no reason to ask a question you already know the answer to.

I know if I asked your wife why she is getting divorced, she would cite all of your shortcomings and explain why you are satan incarnate. She would rewrite the history of your marriage dredging up every wrongdoing going back 20 years. She would say she has never been in love with you OR fell out of love years and years ago. Heck, she has probably told people you "abused" her! Wayward wives love playing the "abuse" card.


Honestly, this is about as productive as asking a falling down drunk why they get drunk. I suppose it can't hurt, but it is not going to help. I seriously doubt she will admit that her affair is the cause of the divorce.

Point taken. Sorry, I meant to say I would ask her if she has been having relations with OM again. In the past on two occasions I have asked this point blank and gotten a yes answer to it. In both cases I subsequently stopped speaking with her, but now realize I should have exposed at those points and followed Plan A. It would just be a potential way to confirm.

It can't hurt, but I don't expect her to admit the truth this close to the divorce. If she admits she is still having the affair it could harm her position in the divorce. Surely she has smartened up about that. It is not in her best interest to admit the truth.

I posted this question above and it seems to have been lost in the thread:

If I expose the affair, you are telling me I should stick with plan A, right? Which means try to stay engaged and meet her needs in any way possible, be my best self and show her I love her and want to reconcile. I've read the article on this but have a few questions. Do I try to prolong the divorce, fight it? How long do I do this for until I accept the divorce? How long after the divorce should I keep trying? We are at 18 months already since D-day, and a divorce could go quite quickly unless I drag it out. So I'm 100% aware this is not a good situation and want to know what I'd be up against and where the slivers of hope might be. I'm still learning how this works, so grateful for any information.

Wow - your kids are not babies, sir. They are long past the age where they deserve to know the truth of why their world is falling apart. It would be immoral to withhold this truth from them.


It's time to quit "struggling" with exposure, and just do it. You need to fight this affair. You cannot make love bank deposits as long as her love bank is open to another man. This is the elephant in the room.


I understand how it can feel when nobody in life gives you the support you need. But you need to rise up and do this. I think you know this and are waiting for confirmation. It's unfortunately none of your friends choose to support you, but your kids need you to deal with this head on like a man.

After your exposure, I would stick with Plan A for about 6 more months before you move on. If you haven't reconciled by then, it is probably hopeless.

At this point, I think divorce is inevitable, so I wouldn't fight it just for the reason that it would cost you more money and you likely won't be successful. If you do reconcile, you can always remarry.

You have plenty of hope, if you will quit ruling out the required tools, like exposure.

Some people rule out every plan of attack and then throw up their hands and say "There's nothing I can do."

We would not be your friends if we let you do this without saying "Of course there's something you can do! Do what has worked for hundreds of people here! Fight the affair!"

I guarantee you she'll start wanting to consider quitting her job if everybody at work knows she's having an affair.

Plan A is your best chance to keep your marriage. Plan B is only for protecting you if the pain becomes so great you can't act rationally. It does not increase your chances of saving your marriage.

dmel, we have seen many instances where workplace exposures resulted in transfers of one of the affairees. Usually the workplace will try and do something. If that happened, it could make all the difference between success and failure in your situation, because she can NEVER withdraw and sober up as long as she sees the OM at work.

Goodnes, yes! You need to confess your faults to the ones you have wounded - the victims of your crime.

They will need to truth from you to learn how to avoid repeating your mistakes in their own lives. They need the truth about their mother, too.

There is nothing to fear from truth.

Workplace exposure letter - be sure and send to 3 key people and cc each on the letter. Good targets would be the Director of Human Resources, a key VP and both affairee's supervisor. This can be sent via registered letter or even via email!

Developed by Brits Brat, board member and corporate attorney--

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and OM are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,
_________________________

The thing you're missing is that continued contact is an affair. It does the same stuff to the brain.

An affair is, neurologically speaking, an addiction. It's just like an addiction to alcohol or heroin. Seeing the affair partner is a hit. It affects the brain, every time, whether it's "personal contact" or "business contact" or whatever.

So continuing to see the affair partner at work is like quitting drinking but still sipping wine for 8-10 hours a day.

Dmel, first off, I'm terribly sorry for what you are going through. I was there years ago, dealt with the very same painful issues from a crazed WW, and I have a particular empathy for WW/BH situations because of it. I made plenty of the same mistakes you have already acknowledged (the biggest of which was being naive and not finding/implementing MB soon enough). A few points to emphasize that I also experienced personally:

A) "Asking" your WW for information is an utter waste of time and exercise in futility/frustration. There is a 99% chance that she is going to lie to you, deny everything, cover her backside, and even gaslight you to deflect. The common lies are things like...

We (her and OM) are 'just friends'.
He (OM) has nothing to do with our marriage situation.
Our marriage was over long before I met him anyway.

And so on and so on. Gaslighting is an even more insidious way of lying in which your WW will deflect by attacking you, often angrily, in an attempt to make you feel shamed or intimidated into backing off. As in...

You are paranoid! You are crazy! You really need some help. You are behaving like a stalker so stay out of my business!


B) Melody is correct that your WW's main goal is to pin the marriage's demise on YOU entirely and keep her affair out of consideration. She will emphasize and exaggerate everything remotely negative from the past and ignore or dismiss everything positive. This is the "re-writing of history" Melody wrote about. She will also scapegoat you beyond what you ever thought possible to anyone who listens to her. How you were a 'bad husband' she hasn't loved in years but she was pretty much a perfect wife. It is ALL your fault! She is blameless for anything beyond the most trivial error.

I really want to warn you especially about your WW playing the "abuse card". WWs LOVE using that. It makes you look like an ogre and it makes her look like a sympathetic figure who's justified in leaving (with no mention of the affair which is the real and primary reason after all). The scariest thing is how EASY it is for evil women to get away with it. The family court system is heavily biased against men and WWs know this. Pretty much all a WW has to do is bat her eyes, shed a few tears, and claim she's "been harrassed" or "is scared" of you and voila you will be assumed guilty.

There have been plenty of men here who after confronting/calling-out a WW have found themselves on the receiving end of an "abuse" (spousal or child) allegation, even using the kids as pawns. Don't think for a moment that your WW is too 'decent' to play that card. WWs can be very very evil.


C) Your best bet is always to investigate and expose independently of involving her in any way. I always advise BHs to hire a PI if at all possible to do the dirty work professionally and give yourself insulation. When you have the incontrovertible proof, expose widely all at once and without warning as descibed here on MB. That's the only chance (well, best one anyway) BHs have of breaking the affair early. And if it isn't broken early...well, more on that later.

I would do the above EVEN IF you don't want to save the marriage or its too far gone to likely salvage anyway. You will be glad you did even if you divorce. It will destroy her blame-you-strategy and expose her for the liar and cheat that she is. You will also have the peace of mind that comes from knowing you didn't behave like a doormat and accept no responsible for her infidelity.


D) I'm sorry to say this, but like Melody I doubt you are going to able to avoid divorce in this situation. If a WW is stubbornly continuing the affair or refusing to be genuinely remorseful/repentant this long, the marriage is un-save-able and frankly why would you want to with such a woman?

MB is geared towards people who WANT to try to recover their marriages but remember that isn't required. It is perfectly acceptable and maybe even more logical to choose to cut bait with a WS, especially if they refuse to alter their behaviors/attitudes for a substantial length of time.

I firmly believe from much reading and many personal observations that in general a WW is much harder to recover with than a WH. Their affairs tend to be more emotionally addicted and their attitudes toward their marriage/BH more belligerent and self-entitled. I urge BHs to Plan A, gather the info (PI), expose, and then be realistic about the prospects, especially if the affair has been going on a good while and she remains unrepentant. IMHO, such a woman isn't worth 2 years of wasting your life on.

Once again, I am very very sorry for what you are going through.

That is the truth.