Blah blah blah back story not really that important.

Short run down:

- WW had ONS with OM while high on cocaine at Christmas Party 16th Dec, 2011.
- Has maintained NC with OM.
- Was caught morning of June 7th, 2013 high on cocaine again with her idiot best friend (host of Christmas Party) while I returned home early from a pleasure trip.
- Immediately confronted WW with a quick trip to her Mother's house and threat of immediate eviction from household by myself (MiL previously downplayed WW's drug problem and cheating during initial exposure, helicopter parenting and such).
- MiL now inline and onside. MiL can no longer downplay severity of WW's behavior (Fortunately my MiL isn't a total dunce).
- WW still periodically smokes marijuana which is a huge trigger for me given all the history in my life of loved ones abusing drugs/alcohol.
- Still finding it hard to trust WW, mostly on account of drug use.
- Monitoring program still in full swing (keylogger etc...)
- Triggers send me into instant anger and loathing towards WW and her ONS, the fog and all of the rest of the garbage associated with ONS.
- Still managing to hold myself together (I'm stronger than I ever thought I could be).
- Haven't yelled or any untoward behavior directed at WW.

Still trying to be the best Husband I can be.

As a personal question for myself: Is it normal to still react so negatively to triggers this far along?

WW has been (aside from her drug abuse) pretty good at being a good Wife since ONS. I understand her drug abuse is likely a symptom of a larger personal issue of hers.

Lately she has been more affectionate which is actually a little off putting. At first I thought she was up to no good as I have been burned a time or two ya know, but there is no indication that she is wayward again. Pretty sure I'd know if she had anything underground as I have become amazingly proficient at surveillance.

Starting to think it might be drugs, again. Anyone have experience with their WW/WH and drugs? Haven't really been monitoring for drugs.

You know that gut feeling? The one that likely landed us (you - the reader, and myself) here. Yeah, I have that feeling but different.

NMUN,

Was the OM ever exposed to his GF / W?

Did you ever confront the OM, do you still live near the OM?

If the OM is a drug dealer did you turn him over to the police?

God Bless
Gamma

OM didn't have a GF/W etc... at the time. OM was pretty much just a 19 y/o snot nosed kid sleeping with a married 30-something (MY married 30-something Wife).

Oddly enough, OM ended up with co-worker of my WW, who knew about A. Both have a penchant for nose candy so I can only hope they are happy and high together - living in a different town.

OM had the fear of whatever he's afraid of instilled in him. Wouldn't even go near my WW's place of employment because of exposure and... well... fear. I literally watched him stand across the street waiting for his now GF get off of work because he was too scared to go near the building. Not saying I did anything illegal to scare him so, but I did something... ya know... not nice.

OM isn't a drug dealer, but the line between drug abuser and drug dealer aren't always so clear.

Police were informed, yes.

I know it might be early in the morning, but will no one answer my question regarding triggers?

You asked above about experiencing triggers "this far along". How far along would you say you are, given this information?

Was caught morning of June 7th, 2013 high on cocaine again with her idiot best friend (host of Christmas Party) while I returned home early from a pleasure trip.
- Immediately confronted WW with a quick trip to her Mother's house and threat of immediate eviction from household by myself (MiL previously downplayed WW's drug problem and cheating during initial exposure, helicopter parenting and such).
- MiL now inline and onside. MiL can no longer downplay severity of WW's behavior (Fortunately my MiL isn't a total dunce).
- WW still periodically smokes marijuana which is a huge trigger for me given all the history in my life of loved ones abusing drugs/alcohol.
- Still finding it hard to trust WW, mostly on account of drug use.
You were advised about her drug use in your previous thread, but you brushed off her abuse as "one time". You were told that recovery is not possible with a substance abuser.

And here you are.

You are angry because your marriage is still in the dumps. She is still using drugs and certain conditions ("away for a pleasure trip", WW attending parties without you) are still present which means your marriage is another affair waiting to happen.

She needs to be drug tested and you need to consider that you will have to separate from her unless she is willing to address her drug addiction. You can't recover a marriage with an active addict.

NMUN,
You have no children.
Your wife is not only a wayward but abusing drugs.
Sadly, I do not see much to save here.
I am sorry.

Yeah, I'm not abandoning my wife nor my marriage.

Not happening. No way, no how.

Well yes, there has been an indication that she is "wayward" again -- there was the June drug incident. "Wayward" doesn't just mean cheating -- there are many reckless behaviors that fall into that category. Drug use is certainly one. The conditions that led to her ONS have not been eliminated and you are NOT safe while those behaviors are still present.

Recovering a marriage with an active addict is not possible.

Your gut is screaming out to you with good reason.

Mrs. W

Good.

So when are you going to start trying to save your wife and marriage? Plan head in the sand doesn't work.

Then why would she change her behaviour? She can get the best of both worlds right now, she gets her addiction AND she has you, knowing you won't leave because of it.

Addicts don't change unless they have to. They don't get tired of it.

Anyone else with relevant personal experience on the subject?

Many of you want to be helpful and is appreciated, but I have specific concerns that warrant specific answers.

I have had my fair share of dealings with drug addicts (and probably everyone else's fair share for that matter), and I would not classify my wife as a full on addict.

Yes my wife has screwed up royally, but that is no reason to discard another human being. Let me reiterate that last part: human being.

Some of you, are coming off as being just a tad bit judgmental. If were your spouse *gasp* you might come off as passing Disrespectful Judgements.


I like you, I don't know why but I do. I see some merits to your points.

Let me ponder on this a while.

Most of the veterans here have "relevant" personal experience. Your situation is not unique. We see it all the time. Your wife is a drug addict. Until you fix that you can't fix her or your marriage. An affair is another type of chemical/drug affair. The addict needs to be cutoff from teh drug before any healing can happen.


You're getting "specific answers". If you don't want to listen thats your choice. If so please stop wasting our time. There are others here who want and need help.

It's not abandoning your marriage to say "You will get help for your addiction or we will not remain married", it's about not enabling the addict to continue to commit the behaviours while you are being abused. It is abusive to be the spouse of an addict. This is not marriage-at-all-costs (MB).

It is like saying you will not continue to stay in a marriage with a spouse who refuses to stop their affair - you are HELPING your spouse by showing them that they cannot continue such abusive behaviours. If they refuse to stop, then at least you save your mental health in the long-run by not accepting a life of abuse from your addicted spouse.

Separation (separation - not divorce) is not abandonment or discarding. It is drawing a line in the sand and saying YOU WILL NOT ABUSE ME. If they are willing to get help and proactively change, then there is no need for divorce because that is how recovery begins. If they continue to abuse you, then it is not abandonment, it is their choice.

Absolutely! I concur.

To add to that, it is LOVING and CARING to set a boundary that says, "I am unwilling to sit idly by and watch you destroy yourself [and our marriage] by using drugs".

Even if your wife is not a drug addict, her drug use IS bothersome and harmful to you and your marriage. Drug use was also one of the conditions present when she had her one night stand.


I see. Isn't the above quote just a "tad bit judgmental" on your part?

NMUN, please stop shooting at the "rescue helicopters". No one here is doing anything other than extending a helping hand towards you. We are collectively saying that YES, it is NORMAL for you to still have anger and triggers at this point because the conditions that led to the ONS have not been eliminated. There has been no just compensation provided. Nothing has changed.

Mrs. W

The bottom line is she is choosing to get high and ignore how you feel. She's a casual user that likes the feeling here and there.

NMUN,

Take a look at my signature line -- I am a FWW myself. You'll get no argument from me that human beings aren't disposable. I know that people can and do change. My affair was 8 years ago, and my husband and I are happily recovered -- He posts here too. (MrWondering). I would not have expected him to stay if I hadn't changed my heart, mind and actions. He also made changes. We eliminated the conditions that were present in our marriage at the time of the affair, and now live a very enjoyable interdependent life.

When you have spoken to your wife about her drug use and how much it bothers you, what has she said? Is she willing to change? Is she willing to implement extraordinary precautions that will insure those changes? One glaringly obvious one to me is that she must be willing to give up her friendship with her drug using friend -- do you agree?

Mrs. W

Every time she gets high it's the same as the ONS to you. Your gut is telling you this. Listen to it. She needs to swear off drugs of any kind pot, coke, or otherwise or you won't feel safe. User, addict, recreational fun, doesn't matter the term, she likes the drugs and that classifies her as an addict. She needs to stop using, because she's abusing you.

If you mean the Pot calling the Kettle black as a means of comparing and contrasting behavior, then yes.


This sounds nice.


What rational person wouldn't have spoken to their significant other about their drug abuse? So in short, yes I have spoken to my WW about he drug abuse.

How much of it she absorbed remains to be seen.

By my own admission, probably not a lot.


This sounds more realistic to my predicament, or at least a trigger for continued anger at WW's behavior.

This isn't nearly as cut and dry as some of you would make it out to be. I understand full well there is a paradigm shift to be had here.

Personal Anecdote: In July, her estranged biological Father came to visit us from Ontario. He was drunk and probably high the whole time he was staying with us. It was really, really uncomfortable for me and I can only imagine it was just the same for my WW. He's dying, from all the hard living he's done. My hope, that this visit having taken place after my WW's last stint with nose candy would be enough to swear her off the stuff.

I am surprised that none of you MB'ers haven't had experience with a spouse who has abused drugs.

I know you are out there. It is statistically improbable that there aren't any of you out there. I understand if you don't want to divulge that information, but it's leaving me hanging in the wind here.

My only experience with it is growing up in a home where you were my mom - and your WW was my dad. She complained and got upset until the cows came home, but never actually had the will to separate if it continued. It was a horrible home to grow up in. 32 years later, she had her own exit affair and now lives in that crippled marriage, still, with no will of her own. My dad is still an addict.

If you choose to not call it addiction, she is still doing behaviours that led to her affair and refusing to stop despite that it hurts you. Death by a thousand cuts. It WILL end your marriage eventually, it just depends on how much sanity you will have left in the end. You might be able to save the marriage if you draw the line NOW and let her know that you are not a punching bag.

I have had a similar experience growing up.

NMUN, you may not find my experience to be very relevant. I wasn't a drug or booze addict per se. Rather, I was addicted to the cheap affirmation & attention that I allowed myself to get starting around 5 years ago, from woman who wasn't my wife.

Mind you, I wasn't raised that way. I grew up in a clean environment, and was taught right from wrong. I lived my life not on the wild side but as an upstanding family man, good dad, model worker, pillar of my church, all that good stuff. But I changed, and I convinced myself that I was in control of events, and that I could stop anytime, before it went too far. And I didn't stop, except for a spell of a few days here & there. But then I'd want another fix, and the other woman would offer, and I'd resume. Just like addicts don't stop, or when they do, they eventually relapse.

I guess you you can argue about whether an affair is an addiction. I cuold suggest you look up some of the literature on brain-chemistry impact of infatuation vs. the brain-chemistry impact of cocaine. Draw your own conclusions.

Anyway, so that's how it was for 2 & a half months... until her husband found out about us, which put me into a bind where I had to face the very real prospective consequence of losing everything that I deep-down knew was important -- including possibly my house, custody of my children, my money, my career, my self-respect, the respect of peers, colleagues, friends and family members, and most of all the love & respect of the love of the woman who was so great that I'd once I'd promised to be honest & faithful toward her forever. I was gnona lose all of that, and there I was, suddenly staring it straight in the face.

That was my rock-bottom, sir: Coming face-to-face with the worst of all possible consequences, all rolled into one.

Your wife hasn't hit it, and won't ever, because you keep giving her soft landings.

Your wife uses drugs, sometimes stops, but then restarts again. You say you don't think that's addiction. OK. I suppose you can make up whatever definition of "addiction" most suits whatever conclusion (and implicitly, whatever remedy) at which you're trying to arrive. And y'know, I could carve a 12x5x2-cubic-foot block of granite into a wedge-shape, haul it into the water and classify it as a "boat" (by my definition of a "boat"), but dude, it still ain't ever gonna float.

The truth is the truth, whether we see the merit in it or not.

By the way, none of the above is judgmental. But IMHO, the first step out of where you are is to be 100% honest with yourself about the circumstances in which you find yourself & those in which your spouse finds herself. Denying the gravity of what she's confronting is not the path to saving her.

I'm sorry to hear that (and I really am, because I wouldn't wish it on anyone). We can't change our pasts but we shouldn't repeat it for ourselves, especially when we should know better.

My plan b letter was my drawing a line in the sand.

My WS affair went underground.
My WS was and still is abusing drugs.
There are children involved.

I did not abandon my marriage, my WS did.

I am healing and so are my children.

Your marriage cannot be recovered while the wayward is active in their affair, even more so if they are using/abusing/or are addicted to drugs.

Like I said, you have no children, you wife is an active wayward, and is using/abusing/or is addicted to drugs. I do not see much to save here, and I am sorry.

Dr Harley says a failure to PoJA is relationship cancer.

Regardless of where she is on the addiction/user scale, you did not PoJA her drug use. That makes it an inconsiderate act. Each one is a paper cut to you. If you want to die a slow death from paper cuts, continue on as you are. That is what a non-PoJA marriage is like.

If she's not a full-on addict, then what's the problem with her quitting?

The best way for you to get a PoJA marriage is to insist on it and leave if you don't get it. If she says no, then it will always be this way and eventually you will split up anyway. Why not just manage it sensibly now?

Dr Harley says if a spouse claims they have control over the substance then you should ask them to stop. You should at that point then ask them to agree that just in case they fail and backslide into using they will then need to enter a rehab facility for the marriage to continue. Many people believe it's all fine and they can quit any time, so readily agree to this. Then later find out they can't do it.

Just in case she cant quit and stay off it, get an agreement in place now that she goes into rehab should that happen.

NMUN,

By your acceptance of your W's drug usage, and your minimizing the impact on both her thinking and decision making process, i wonder if that is possibly that you also enjoy sporadic recreational usage of mind altering substances.

Yes, i have significant experience with my W's relapse back to alcoholism, (which i construe as a mind altering product), and hundreds of acquaintances i know through nearly 20 years of myself belonging to AA and to a lesser degree, Alanon.

Even sporadic usage, especially when a actions done during the usage or contemplating usage does alter many other perceptions.

What is it that you want to know?

She shows all the signs of being unable to stop using, even sporadically and the emotional havoc you are experiencing is a direct result of her usage and your codependency.

LTL

I wouldn't argue this. It is plainly evident in her texting with OM.


I am not sure marching her right over to her (formerly helicopter parent) Mother's house while she is high on Cocaine a soft landing. Pretty sure that one messed up her high really bad.


I'd like to think the majority of that is her dreadful life choices, but it certainly doesn't help her frequently being in close proximity to a functioning drug addict (WW's best friend). A person to which I have a great deal of disdain for.


I am frightfully honest in person. To the point of being off-putting. It is painfully obvious what sort of situation I find my Marriage and myself in.

This matter requires a great deal of tact (to which I have very little) and maybe some subterfuge (a skill I have unintentionally learned by proxy) in dealing with WW's best (not-so) best friend. It must be done with subterfuge as WW's best friend has a not so nice fiancee. If you've ever watched Trainspotting, he's very much like the Character Begbie, only high and loaded with prison tattoos - you know, from prison.


Can you tell me a little more or is it too personal?

If you're really struggling, Dr Harley specialises in addictions and drug use. At one time he ran a number of centres and is well aware of the effect on marriage. He spoke about marijuana use on the radio recently actually.

Why don't you email the radio show? You'll get his professional advice on your problem for free and callers usually have a free book sent to them.

Link to said Email?

This friendship isn't PoJA'd either. Why wasn't she cut out of your lives as a condition for her recovery? Unless your wife starts living her life WITH you and making decisions you approve of instead of doing whatever she likes IN SPITE of you, nothing is going to change!




Well this makes no sense at all. You and your wife merely need to cut them out of your lives. If they don't like it tough. If they threaten you, call the police. Take control for heavens sake.

Oh no problem at all. I've never emailed them myself but I've just googled it and it's mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Her friend is a snake. A serpent descending from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, with soft words and a cold, cold heart. She is more socially refined in the ways of persuasion than I am.

Case in point: A male "acquaintance" of hers went to prison not that long ago for murder. Really nice people...


Thank you.


I'll tell you a secret about the RCMP: They are much better at investigating crimes than they are at preventing crimes.

The RCMP have a poor record for actually arresting criminals in Canada. If that tells you anything about how effective they are, period. I would not put my life, nor my personal health into the hands of the RCMP.

Well that's why the vows say 'forsaking all others'. Your wife doesn't need to agree that the friend is a snake, she simply has to agree to respect your feelings over a mere friendship.

Unless your wife stops making decisions in spite of your opinions, it will just keep getting worse.

I'd make it clear that unless this starts happening a separation is on the horizon.

Then I would start planning said separation.

NMUN~

I did not ask you IF you had talked to your wife about her drug use, rather I asked what her response was WHEN you talked to her about it. What did she say?

The reason you are finding that people here are telling you that you can't recover a marriage with an active drug user is that drug users don't have the ability to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) which says "Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse", and that is the cornerstone to the Marriage Builders program. It's obvious that you are not enthusiastic about her drug use, much less the things she does when she is using.

Please read this link regarding alcoholic spouses by Dr. Harley. What to do with an Alcoholic Spouse I realize that you have not said that your wife is an alcoholic, but please read what Dr. Harley has to say in all of the links there, and I believe you will see that what he is saying applies to your situation as well.

Also please read this article by Dr. Harley: What's Wrong With Unconditional Love? Part I

and this one: What's Wrong With Unconditional Love? Part II

After you finish reading those I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Mrs. W

P.S. Judgment is not a bad thing. People here are exercising good judgment regarding your situation based upon what they have learned from Dr. Harley's professional advice and wisdom about how to have a good marriage.

This has more to do with what the crown will actually prosecute than anything else - it is notoriously difficult to prosecute in general, especially when you are dealing with shady crowds whose credibility might be in question (such as your wife and her "friends").

If these people are as you say (and I'm sure of it), then I would demand rehabilitation and no contact with these people - for life - as a REQUIREMENT to stay married. Anything else is just going to slump this marriage along for another few months or years until it blows up again. She cannot remain with this crowd. Might involve relocation.

I know that is extreme, but she has put herself in extreme circumstances. You will need to consider the possibility that your wife has doomed the marriage and in order to save it, you might have to say goodbye yourself.

This person MUST be cut from your lives.

NMUN, I cut my "best friend" out of our lives after my affair. She and I had been "best friends" since we were 8 & 10 years old. The reason I cut her out was that she encouraged me in my self-destructive and marital-destructive behavior. She aided and abetted my affair. She also started having affairs of her own which finally led to the destruction of her marriage and family. My husband and I supported and helped her husband in trying to bust up her affairs, but she was hell-bent on destroying it all and she did. Based on our contact with her ex-husband we know that she married one of the losers who had been in and out of jail -- he ended up abusing her which landed him back in jail. Ultimately she divorced him as well. Her 2 little boys had their family destroyed for that mess. Very sad.

My marriage and family are far more important to me than any so called "friend". The friends I have in my life today are ones that are friends to my marriage and family -- those are true friends.

If your wife isn't willing to sever her ties with this "friend" -- if she is not willing to put you and your marriage first, then you must take action.

Mrs. W

My WW lived with her POSOM; an addict who blazed up 3-5 times a day at least. He introduced her to the stuff in such a romantic way, with a kiss. Later she began to blot out the "pain" from "our troubles" with the stuff. She freely admits to a span of time in which she was either drunk, stoned or both whenever the kids weren't around. (Like I believe that). My kids remember mommy's Mario mushroom (glass pipe) getting broken by POS's dog. She even "tried" a couple of other things. During her high times, she experimented with "other activities" as well. The things I've heard make me sick to my stomach. She had never touched anything worse than tylenol before.

But if you believe you're wife is just casual and will stay that way, you're deluding yourself. She needs to cut the drugs and the drug addicts out of her life permanently or you walk, honestly there's no other way it will get worse.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

It is not too personal, but it is convoluted. I need to do a cliff notes version at some point.

As challenging as it is to attempt recovery marital recovery, it is even more so when drugs or alcohol are added in. The marriage cannot recover at all. Recovery or Divorce will entirely be your decision. Both will be considered a success. With no children in the marriage, your young age, her line of employment, her affair, again, I do not see much to save. If there were children, of course, it would be different.

In my stitch, the marriage was not salvageable. My plan b, the children's and my own recovery, and soon be finalized divorce is a victory. Certainly not the outcome I had hoped or worked for initially in the days after DD, but it is the healthiest for myself and children.

Please listen to this clip.
Radio Clip on Drug Addiction

Radio Clip on Drug Addiction
Segment #2
Segment #3

Drugs or alcohol make it harder to work a change -- because the addiction has to go first. Plan A'ing an addict just won't work.