My husband, who I have been married to for almost 5 years, is still "friends" with his old girlfriend from about 20 years ago. I have never met this woman but he often references her in conversations for no reason like "Jen gave these to me for my birthday one year" or I went to this bar with Jen when we were dating" rather than just saying "I got these for my birthday" or "I've been to this bar before". He tells me they are just friends and I have nothing to worry about and that she is just a super nice, smart, laid back person but that they just weren't meant to be. I know he texts and facebooks with her every now and then, yet he never tells me he does. I have also seen a few texts saying he stopped by her place one night but she wasn't home and of course this is when I am out of town. He never ever tells me that he sees or talks to her. I snoop so I have seen their conversations. Their conversations don't allude to anything sexual, but he has said things like "I plan on asking you out for dinner and a yes is expected" and "I'm free to work on your car as needed" but he never tells me any of this. I guarantee you if she was married or in a relationship that there would be no contact between them, but she is still single and never been married.

Even on his birthday she couldn't post "happy birthday" to his wall on facebook like everyone else and instead private messaged him "happy birthday" and nothing more. It makes it seem like she is being so secretive and they have some kind of deeper relationship. He often references in his texts to her that he was somewhere visiting someone and makes it sounds like I wasn't with him. In fact, he mostly makes his texts to her sound like I am never with him, when 99% of the time I am. He is giving her the illusion that he is single. The fact that he lies, or simply doesn't tell me, about texting and chatting with her and that he never references me in his texts to her makes me think that this is more than "just a friend".

Yet he asks her via facebook last week if she would be around last Tuesday. She didn't get back to him until Tuesday afternoon and said she'd be around after work. He didn't respond so she asked the next day what was up. He said he was thinking of going to this one pub that we always go to in her neighborhood to have a final drink to his buddy who was committing assisted suicide at 7PM that night but stayed home instead. Yet he tells me (about 20 minutes after he asked her on Facebook if she'd be around) that he was thinking of going down to Seattle after work the next day. Weird. So I ask why (even though I already knew he had sent Jen this message) and he says "Oh I don't know. He's killing himself tomorrow right? I thought I would just go sit outside his house in the car". Okay REALLY weird! Oh yeah Jen is JUST a friend! You have to lie to me, and a ridiculous lie at that, and go spend time with Jen and I have nothing to worry about?!?!

I am terrible at confrontation, but do I tell him I've seen the texts and messages and know he has lied to me numerous times about contacting her?

When I saw your thread title my immediate thought was yes. I actually think not, having read your description.

It's worse, if anything. Like they never broke up at all and he still has the same exact relationship on going with her. It's respect for her feelings that he doesn't mention you. Your feelings don't factor, I.e. he knows it bothers you but so what? Keeping an old girlfriend around, never letting go suggests a renters attitude to your marriage. He needs a back up because he doesn't consider it permanent.

Have you done heavy duty snooping? Keylogger, GPS?

What I don't understand is why you married into or allow this situation? He should stop it now and if he is OK with it bothering you you should leave.

I wouldn't give away your snooping resources. Just tell him you expect it to stop out of respect for you. Youre not looking to persuade or threaten just give an honest report of feelings.

If he does not care about your feelings, make it clear you are unlikely to settle for that.

Dr Harley believes that there should be NO OS friendships outside of marriage. And that is especially true of past romantic relationships, because you already have a love bank built up for that person.

No I haven't done GPS or keylogging. I mean, he has no idea I check up on him. If he did, he would log out of his facebook on the laptop! I know his email password, we share a phone account so I can tell when her she texts via our online records (although he doesn't think I know her number), I know his banking password, I check his texts on his phone whenever I see her number show up in our records. I think I pretty much have everything covered. I look on his computer history when he isn't there.

It doesn't seem to matter to him that I say it's weird how much he mentions her. He just tells me that she was a big part of his life and she's cool and funny and laid back...but it just didn't work out. He tells me she thought she could do better but then after they broke up she went to a bad part of town and got shot in the eye and now has a glass eye and probably can't find a guy due to that and now she is probably hoping for him. I'm sure he gets off on that. He told me he broke up with her but I wonder.

He says he's not hiding anything but yet he doesn't seem to want to own up to texting her or "running into" her? And if she's a "friend" then how come I've never met her in the 5 years I've been here?

I would tell him that this "friendship" with this woman is making you very unhappy and that you want him to end it. When we are married, we should not have prior romantic flames in our lives anymore. They are a danger to marriage, because we usually have love bank balances for these folks. In your H's case, he has never stopped contacting her, and he seems very invested in keeping this relationship alive.

He should end all contact with this woman. If you both want FB, then you can easily share an account. All passwords should be shared, no overnights apart, complete transparency with time and money. No more close personal friendships with the OS.

If he refuses to give up contact, I would start snooping to find out what's going on when you are not looking.

I agree completely that you should not have former flames in your lives when you are married. If you absolutely have to then both people should be friends with her. I should say that I still keep an old boyfriend on Facebook, but I never ever message him and very occasionally I "like" something of his, but I would never be afraid if H saw me looking on his page because there's nothing to hide...and he is 2000 miles away whereas Jen is 30 miles away! The fact of the matter is, he doesn't even know this guy's name because I NEVER bring him up, unlike Jen. I have referred to him in the past as "hotel guy" because that's where he worked but never said his name or gave anecdotes like "Oh I remember when he and I did this fun little trip". I dated him pretty much the same time he dated Jen so why is it that Jen always manages to come up in conversation? He has no problem mentioning her name to me but never seems to mention my name to her!

Even when both people are friends with an old flame, they are still a danger to the marriage. It's fine to have friends of the marriage, but OS friends should not ever become personal or close, because it's so easy to start depositing love units and then quickly become romantic. Most affairs start with a close friendship with the OS.

Are you going to tell your H that you are unhappy with his friendship with his old girlfriend and ask him to end all contact with her?

Mapper,

You wrote, I still keep an old boyfriend on Facebook

Get rid of this person pronto, if the old BF contacts you asking why, tell him you are married and any contact is inappropriate.

In spite of your dropping him years ago, you still have a love bank balance with this BF, and time and time again we see very old romances come back to life. Or did he drop you in which case it is even more important to end it.

That your Hs behavior is deplorable does not justify your keeping an old BF on facebook.

God Bless
Gamma

He broke up with me, yet he is the one who asked me to be facebook friends years ago. I realize I am defending me while bashing H, but I have never secretly messaged him or made plans to meet with him or lied to my husband about any of it.

I have told him it's weird that he still talks about her so much and he defends it by saying she's just a good person and how I don't get upset when he talks about the mother of his daughter because he hates her and always says bad things so I am getting worked up because he presents Jen in a good light. Well I expect to hear about your daughter's mother because she will always be in your life. You also don't secretly text your daughter's mother or try to meet up with her! There's no secrets kept form me regarding your relationship with her!

Have you read about the Policy of Joint Agreement on this website? Here

The POJA is the foundation of a great marriage. Dr. Harley has gone so far as to say that a marriage can't really be good UNLESS the POJA is followed.

Your H should not have friendships that you are not enthusiastic about. No close OS friendships are a basic precaution that helps keep a marriage safe.

I wouldn't tell him that it's weird to keep in contact. Tell him respectfully that his contact with this woman makes you very unhappy and that you want the contact to end. Keep repeating it. Don't add a judgement to it; just say that it bothers you greatly.

If he cares about your feelings, he will stop arguing about it and end the contact. On the other hand if he is uncaring and thoughtless, he will defend himself and continue contact regardless of how it makes you feel. Are there other ways that your H doesn't bother to consider your feelings?

He's always very controlling of certain things like if I decide to cook, he has to look over my shoulder and almost always finds something I'm doing "wrong" (meaning not his way) and can't just let me do anything without his input in some form...even if he can't find anything "wrong" he will turn the burner on the stove down just a smidge to be doing something. I mean he complains that he always has to do the cooking yet he's never happy when I do it and he makes me feel incapable. Same with folding laundry. Even if I fold all his clothes, he will come out and refold all of them "his" way.

You say you have been married for almost five years. Did you live together first? How old are you and your H? Do you have any children together?

The first thing that needs to be addressed is this attachment to his old girlfriend. That needs to end, because it bothers you so much. Will he end contact?

Is your H a bit obsessive and picky and critical?

We've been together for 10 years. 1 year knowing each other and then he moved to be near his daughter and we carried on long distance for another 3 years, I moved and we lived together for a year before getting married. He is 46 and I am 42. He has a daughter from a previous relationship but we have none together.

I really don't think he'd stop contact with her because she was "such an important part of his life". He would probably tell me he would but still contact her. I mean my god shortly after I moved out here to be with him I accidently shrunk this wool shirt of his and he threw a fit saying "Jen's dad gave that to me years ago and I'm not upset because it has anything to do with Jen but rather because her dad thought enough of me to give it to me. I mean he was asst. police chief and I wasn't the best behaved person and he still respected me and made me feel welcome." Holy crap he just went on and on about me shrinking that until I finally said I'd buy him a new one...which cost me nearly $100 by the way!

You better believe he is picky and critical!

Mapper,

Reading what you wrote it's almost like your H brought you in as his Mother, cook, cleaning person, while keeping this OW as his mistress. Do not refer to her as Jen, refer to her as H's ex-lover, perhaps not so ex.

But the ex-BF of yours on FB, is also an ex-lover, assuming you held hands or did anything more, and for that reason you should close off all avenues of communication.

Frankly if an ex-BF of my W were so brazen to continue contact with my W, the least I would do is post the ex-BF on www.cheaterville.com

God Bless
Gamma

To answer the title of your thread, Dr Harley defines the line of EA as one or both parties expressing their feelings for each other. However that does not mean feelings do not exist BEFORE this happens.

Your H has already HAD feelings for this woman, and therefore has a LB balance for her, so he already has feelings for her. This is why it is so important for ex's to be out of the picture. He is continuing to build his LB for her as well, because they still spend time filling each others needs. He is already in a bit of a fog, and also addicted to her, which is evident by his behavior. He is not only in communication with her, but meets with her SECRETLY, not only lying to you about his whereabouts but also doing so while you are out of town. He already has feelings for her and is willing to engage in behaviors that are very risky (meeting at her house while you are out of town, meeting at bars without your knowledge) and is also willing to be dishonest and disrespectful to you. Even if they have not breached the technical aspect of what identifies an EA, it is only a matter of time before this is a full fledged affair. And that is if it isn't already, you only know what you know, and you already know he is willing to be deceptive.

This relationship must end. I would highly recommend some serious snooping, more than you have already done, in ways that he would NOT guess...GPS tracker on his car, key logger, etc. You need to know the full extent of this relationship. If it hasn't breached the threshold for an EA, just respectfully ask that he end it, because it hurts you and your marriage. If he is unwilling to consider your feelings about this, which he may be because he is already in an 'affair fog' due to his addiction to her, you should think about separating.

After he has ended contact with 'Jen' you should implement EP's to protect your marriage from affairs. It is obvious reading your very first post that he has VERY poor boundaries around women, and has a very wayward mindset. Unless that changes you will be in competition with other women for the entire length of your marriage.

This is kind of an offshoot, but I notice that he seems to "like" a lot of things on certain women friend sites on Facebook for a while, like he gets hooked on one person and then switches over to another and I don't see any "likes" on the former woman's page for a while. He was on this one woman's (who he barely knew) for a while and there were a few private messages between them, one of them saying "I just wanted to know that you look hot in that bikini. My wife would kill me if she saw this comment" Oh ya think?! Of course, she wasn't married or in a relationship. Then he mentioned to her that he knew someone who had an extra ticket to this gaming convention (not my thing) and said she could meet him there for that, which she took him up on and then he came to his senses and said he wasn't going anymore (even though he was) but then said "I'll make it up to you". What?!!! There hasn't been any more "likes" or messages to her in over a month. Then there was a private message to another woman a few days ago that said "Oh I didn't realize you lived in France. Were you just visiting when I met you." I had no idea who this woman was and when he would have met her. Then today I saw they had a mutual friend in common and when I looked at the mutual friend I remembered that WE had met her and her brother at our usual bar about 2 months prior. I mean we talked to them for like 10 minutes and I had no idea he added both of them to Facebook. He has liked several things on her page lately. Once again, she isn't married or in a relationship.

Who will be the next lucky lady???

It is not an offshoot at all. I repeat, he has VERY poor boundaries around women. In fact, after reading what you just wrote, it appears more to me like he is actually out trolling for women. If he hasn't already had an affair, he is gunning for one with this behavior. It is totally unacceptable.

And the funny thing is last night he is saying how his high school girlfriend cheated on him and how horrible that was and he can't understand why people screw up good relationships. He then says he got lucky with me and got such a great thing in his life after all the other crappy relationships he went through.

So what are you going to do about this Mapper? Are you going to do some major snooping?

Your husband is a serial cheater. He hits on women and keeps an old girlfriend on the side, lying to you every step of the way. His disrespect and hurtful behavior are a disgrace, and you have to do something about it.

Make sure that you print and save or copy, past, and electronically file the messages that he sends to other women. Build your case, and then expose it to him, your family and friends, his family and friends, and his ex girl friends' family and friends.

My brother-in-law did the same thing, and my sister confronted him. He would stop and then go back at it again. Finally, he left the family and shacked up with one his Facebook girls. They are on their way to divorce.

Your marriage is doomed if he is not confronted and won't treats this addiction to women.

I remember my husband saying this all the time before his affair. When we get cheaters on here they say it too. It's all how they know cheating is so wrong but they are better friends with the OW than their wife or OW meets their needs better. One crackpot even said it 'must be love' if he was willing to break his moral code for the ho. Dr H says that typically affairs happen to people who believe they would never do such a thing. They believe it so absolutely they take no measures to avoid, or even actively seek out, the pleasures of temptation believing they can resist it. But actually, once past that point they cannot.



He is actively trolling for affairs I'm afraid.

It will be a miracle if he has not been in one already. This may explain his hyper critical attitude. Many cheaters tell themselves their spouses are just not cutting it and it is their fault.

Learn how to snoop like a bloodhound. I would also tell your husband that unless OS friendships end he will likely be looking at a separation. You don't have to persuade him or do anything immediate. Just let him know.

Of course he doesn't see it as criticizing, he sees it as "helping" me. He'll ask me to cook for a change because he's tired so I'll try to come up with something simple, yet he can't stay out of the kitchen and feels the need to come in and oversee how I'm doing and almost always feels the need to do something. He'll ask me to drive back from a long trip because he's tired yet a 1/2 mile down the road he's already critiquing my driving. We played this Fantasia video game last night where you have to move your arms to the music. I looked like an idiot from the start and he couldn't just let me have fun but instead told me to do it a certain way. He eventually said "This is just hard to watch you" because I was doing so poorly. Then I said "Well here's another thing I suck at" and he goes "Oh it's going to be another one of THOSE games huh?" Meaning it's one where I'm going to pout because I can't do well. No it would be a lot of fun if you would just keep your mouth shut and have fun. I don't need or want a lesson...it's a VIDEO GAME!!!!!!! I know I look like an idiot playing it but I don't care. What angers me is that you feel the need to assess every move I make. Then he said "Oh poor honey" very patronizingly. I bet if he sat next to me at my job, which he knows nothing about, after 5 minutes he'd say "Why are you doing it like that? There must be an easier way." And you know what? We played this dance game about a month ago and I did better than him on that and after one song he goes "This is stupid" and turned it off. He hasn't played it since. Yet anything he's better at me at we have to play again and again. I even said to him when I did better than him at that one game that he needed to get down a little lower at one part and he immediately told me to be quiet. I tell you ONE thing and you tell me to be quiet yet you seem to feel free to tell me over and over all the things I could do better!

I'd love to have a hobby, but I have no idea what I could do since he would either think it's silly or else come and tell me that there's a better way to do it. If I decide to join some group out of the house he would probably be upset that I was gone. I wouldn't join a group anyways because I'm too unsure of myself as it is and automatically think that everyone in the group would think me odd or wonder why I joined when I'm not very good at it.

I used to be so happy with myself. I know that I am a simple person. I am college educated, but I don't want for much in life and I'm not necessarily into the "cool" stuff like my husband is. He likes heavy metal and motorcycles and guitars and sci fi. I like country and gardening and reading and even watching the occasional reality tv show. He will make fun of my choice of music and tv. I always make sure my country station is turned to his rock station before I get out of the car so if we happen to go somewhere together he won't get in and hear country and make fun of it. If I am watchign a reality show on tv while he's out, I make sure that I have the previous station set as Comedy Central or something that he would like to watch so that as soon as he walks in the door I switch it over so I don't have to hear "Why are you watching that reality tv garbage?"

I wish I could do something 10 times better than him but I can't think of one thing. He has a critique for almost anything I do. I'm tired of feeling like crap due to him "helping" me. What can I say to him to "help" him and see how much he likes it? Or at least not feel so crappy after he critiques me every move?

Threads merged.

Please stick to one thread so that other posters can help you better.

I am SO SO SO sick of his sarcastic comments about me talking to some made up "other" boyfriend! I have never ever given him any reason to think I even know any other guys much less talking to any one. Whenever he comes in the room and I'm on the laptop, he'll come up behind so he can see the screen and he'll look at it and see I'm on some site like the local news or the weather and he'll go "What are you doing? Emailing your boyfriend?" Um yes that is EXACTLY what I'm doing as you can see from the weather.com website I'm on! If I'm on the computer in the computer room and he's out watching tv he'll come in and damn near scare me by saying "What are you doing?". If I simply pick up my phone to see if I've had a call or message he'll go 'Oh checking to see if your boyfriend called?"

I am really really tired of this. My usual retort to him is "Yes I'm actually talking to 2 of my boyfriends" because his sarcasm is so out of left field. The only "bad" thing he's ever going to find on my computer are sites I go to to discuss how upset HE makes me. Trust me, there are no dating sites or other guys!

From the thread Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders

The problem with living together before, as you two did, is that it usually brings a host of bad relationship habits into the marriage. If you both learn the habits of a Buyer, you can turn this marriage around; otherwise, I'm afraid you're in for more of the same.

MB is a set of principles and RULES for marriage. If you both follow the rules, you are guaranteed to enjoy a great marriage. I'm sure you are extremely hurt and frustrated by your H's thoughtlessness, and this forum is a place where we attempt to help create a PLAN to create a great marriage.

I suggest that you start reading through the thread I linked for you, all the basic concepts and any articles relevant to your situation. Start listening to the radio show. Present the MB plan to your H and see if he'll join you. You will need to learn new habits as well. If he refuses, Dr. Harley recommends separation, because staying isn't going to change anything but withdraw more love units day by day from his account in your love bank.

H posted a video on Facebook where we were playing an interactive video game and he was calling me sweetie and honey and since he posted it to his wall, good ole Jen will see it and see that we are still together!

This got me thinking back to an old boyfriend from about 15 years ago. He had an ex (coincidentally named Jenny!) who he was still friends with, but they were ACTUALLY friends! He would talk to her and not keep it a secret from me. She was dating someone else and all 3 of them were friends. She would come to get-togethers with her boyfriend and there was no secrecy that they used to date. This didn't bother me in the least. The fact that H is still "friends" with Jen but it is all secret contact bothers me. He "likes" damn near everything she puts up on Facebook, but you know I have never once seen a "like" from her on his page. Is she THAT secretive about it? I mean other women post likes to things he puts up and it doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the fact that he secretly messages girls.

Mapper,

Are you listening to anything that is posted to you?
Have you read the articles on this website?

Mapper, the MB forum is a place where posters can get help with creating a great marriage; it's not a place to blog. There are plenty of places on the Internet to blog.

If you would like help with your marriage, please start by responding to posters' questions and suggestions.

What have you done so far with the information you have received so far on your thread?

The fact that he wants you to accept his female friends as a condition of your marriage is a huge red flag. I lived it myself. I put up with his Calls to one of them, her visits to our home, and I foolishly saw it as old friends catching up, as I was included. Well, years later the old old Jr. Hi GF came slithering in, and I wasn't told about her re-emergence. We were separated due to his out of town
job. Rocked my world! I didn't take it lying down. I called her, told her what she was in my mind, a ho, void of a moral compass, anything I could think of. Her 22 year old daughter eavesdropped on one of our conversations, so she went crying to her brothers and Dad about my accusations. She actually called me and said I ruined her life! LOL. Sit down on her and state your claim. Dr Harley says confront the OM, I say confront the OW, without asking her for the lies she will feed you. If your WH has told you anything showing her in a negative light, repeat it back to her. She will feel betrayed by him and crack the fantasy. Never show weakness to her, be above her, since they always affair down. I actually told OW, to slither back up her own driveway because she couldn't carry my makeup case, much less ever look as good as I did. It was the truth, and I'm no great beauty. Good luck, find your voice! GF